Radical unschooling communities in the UK
Vivvie
HI everyone,
this is my first time writing anything. I just intorduce myself a bit. My name is Amy and I live in Ireland. I have two children (6 and 3) and I got the idea of unschooling when my second child was born. It wasnt easy I can tell but I couldnt go back anymore since I understood the concept of them being foremost human beings with the same rights as me. Recently I came to the conclusion that I do not want to send my daughter to school if she is not happy about it. And clearly she isnt. But unfortunately I feel I am on my own. i am a single mother, the daddy is not quite there yet and Ireland may allow homeschooling but that is not whats on my mind. So i was looking further and I am hoping to find a community in the UK where I find like minded people who respect their children and are open about a "no school" life. Would anyone know where I can find like minded people in the UK with the same idea? I know its quite specific but that is only in the intrest of my children. I also believe the whole process will run more smoothly if I am not relying on school and co. At the moment I study myself so there is no point in taking my child out of school just yet. So next year would be ideal.
Anyway, thanks for reading. :)
Have a nice week end.
Amy
this is my first time writing anything. I just intorduce myself a bit. My name is Amy and I live in Ireland. I have two children (6 and 3) and I got the idea of unschooling when my second child was born. It wasnt easy I can tell but I couldnt go back anymore since I understood the concept of them being foremost human beings with the same rights as me. Recently I came to the conclusion that I do not want to send my daughter to school if she is not happy about it. And clearly she isnt. But unfortunately I feel I am on my own. i am a single mother, the daddy is not quite there yet and Ireland may allow homeschooling but that is not whats on my mind. So i was looking further and I am hoping to find a community in the UK where I find like minded people who respect their children and are open about a "no school" life. Would anyone know where I can find like minded people in the UK with the same idea? I know its quite specific but that is only in the intrest of my children. I also believe the whole process will run more smoothly if I am not relying on school and co. At the moment I study myself so there is no point in taking my child out of school just yet. So next year would be ideal.
Anyway, thanks for reading. :)
Have a nice week end.
Amy
Vanessa Orsborn
Hi Amy,
I'm not sure what type of environment you live in already (ie city/country?) but I live in London and there are lots of home ed groups everywhere.
The one I attend in hackney has a few unschoolers within the group. It's hard to tell how many though as I'm still getting to know everyone!
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
I'm not sure what type of environment you live in already (ie city/country?) but I live in London and there are lots of home ed groups everywhere.
The one I attend in hackney has a few unschoolers within the group. It's hard to tell how many though as I'm still getting to know everyone!
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
On 11 Sep 2010, at 08:38, "Vivvie" <vivvie1703@...> wrote:
> HI everyone,
> this is my first time writing anything. I just intorduce myself a bit. My name is Amy and I live in Ireland. I have two children (6 and 3) and I got the idea of unschooling when my second child was born. It wasnt easy I can tell but I couldnt go back anymore since I understood the concept of them being foremost human beings with the same rights as me. Recently I came to the conclusion that I do not want to send my daughter to school if she is not happy about it. And clearly she isnt. But unfortunately I feel I am on my own. i am a single mother, the daddy is not quite there yet and Ireland may allow homeschooling but that is not whats on my mind. So i was looking further and I am hoping to find a community in the UK where I find like minded people who respect their children and are open about a "no school" life. Would anyone know where I can find like minded people in the UK with the same idea? I know its quite specific but that is only in the intrest of my children. I also believe the whole process will run more smoothly if I am not relying on school and co. At the moment I study myself so there is no point in taking my child out of school just yet. So next year would be ideal.
>
> Anyway, thanks for reading. :)
>
> Have a nice week end.
>
> Amy
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ireland may allow homeschooling but that is not whats on my mind.-=-
You can only do what is allowed. Unschooling is a way to homeschool,
so it's not a good idea to say "I'm not sending my kids to school and
I'm not going to homeschool."
In the 1970's there was a lot of school reform talk about freeschools
and open schools and "the open classroom," and that's what we're
doing. It has educational research behind it, much of it from the
1960's and early 1970's.
When people in stores or out and about asked me why my kids weren't in
school I said "we homeschool." That's what it is, it's just a more
elaborate and harder to describe method than buying a curriculum and
playing school at the table.
There are contacts listed here for the UK and Europe, and even if
they're not near you, you could probably ask them for leads.
http://sandradodd.com/world
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You can only do what is allowed. Unschooling is a way to homeschool,
so it's not a good idea to say "I'm not sending my kids to school and
I'm not going to homeschool."
In the 1970's there was a lot of school reform talk about freeschools
and open schools and "the open classroom," and that's what we're
doing. It has educational research behind it, much of it from the
1960's and early 1970's.
When people in stores or out and about asked me why my kids weren't in
school I said "we homeschool." That's what it is, it's just a more
elaborate and harder to describe method than buying a curriculum and
playing school at the table.
There are contacts listed here for the UK and Europe, and even if
they're not near you, you could probably ask them for leads.
http://sandradodd.com/world
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
A good place to discuss and look into things like this is here:
Radical Unschoolers Network
the network for radical unschooling families
http://familyrun.ning.com/
There are interest groups and regional groups you can look for once
you're in there.
Sometimes it's not very busy but I wish it were more busy, so maybe
anyone here who has an account there and hasn't posted lately should
post something! :-)
Sometimes there are complaints that facebook participants forget that
others aren't unschoolers, but on Family Radical Unschoolers Network,
they should be unschoolers. And Radical Unschoolers, too. Laura
Bowman set it up and maintains it.
Partly I'm recommending it because it's not good to have local
discussions on this list, and partly because it's a fun sort of forum
and you can browse through and read what others think of unschooling
and why they're doing it, and see photos of families.
Sandra
Radical Unschoolers Network
the network for radical unschooling families
http://familyrun.ning.com/
There are interest groups and regional groups you can look for once
you're in there.
Sometimes it's not very busy but I wish it were more busy, so maybe
anyone here who has an account there and hasn't posted lately should
post something! :-)
Sometimes there are complaints that facebook participants forget that
others aren't unschoolers, but on Family Radical Unschoolers Network,
they should be unschoolers. And Radical Unschoolers, too. Laura
Bowman set it up and maintains it.
Partly I'm recommending it because it's not good to have local
discussions on this list, and partly because it's a fun sort of forum
and you can browse through and read what others think of unschooling
and why they're doing it, and see photos of families.
Sandra
Vivvie
Hi sandra,
thanks for the reply. I know what you mean that I cannot boast about I am not sending my kids too school not home school them either. believe me thats not my intention anyway. Still, I like to feel more comfortable to say I do unschooling. But still i feel alone doing it in a country where I dont feel its appriciated much. And I'd say personally for myself I need mental support adn support in itself with sharing ideas. I feel if you are on your own I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different ideas. I cannot rely on it but I can tell if I am on my own my children lose out on all the interesting things other places and people can provide, too.
Anyway, thank you for the website. I will check it out.
thanks for the reply. I know what you mean that I cannot boast about I am not sending my kids too school not home school them either. believe me thats not my intention anyway. Still, I like to feel more comfortable to say I do unschooling. But still i feel alone doing it in a country where I dont feel its appriciated much. And I'd say personally for myself I need mental support adn support in itself with sharing ideas. I feel if you are on your own I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different ideas. I cannot rely on it but I can tell if I am on my own my children lose out on all the interesting things other places and people can provide, too.
Anyway, thank you for the website. I will check it out.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Ireland may allow homeschooling but that is not whats on my mind.-=-
>
> You can only do what is allowed. Unschooling is a way to homeschool,
> so it's not a good idea to say "I'm not sending my kids to school and
> I'm not going to homeschool."
>
> In the 1970's there was a lot of school reform talk about freeschools
> and open schools and "the open classroom," and that's what we're
> doing. It has educational research behind it, much of it from the
> 1960's and early 1970's.
>
> When people in stores or out and about asked me why my kids weren't in
> school I said "we homeschool." That's what it is, it's just a more
> elaborate and harder to describe method than buying a curriculum and
> playing school at the table.
>
> There are contacts listed here for the UK and Europe, and even if
> they're not near you, you could probably ask them for leads.
> http://sandradodd.com/world
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sarah
Where abouts in Ireland? I'm in N. Ireland on the North Coast...
I'd start with local home-ed groups - autonomous/unschooling attitudes are fairly wide-spread in my experience... From there you'll find the people you get on with and who will be supportive- whatever their philosophy.
The Home Education Network would be a good place to start, but if you let us know where you are I can ask about for local groups.
Online you'll find loads of UK yahoo groups and blogs.
Sarah
I'd start with local home-ed groups - autonomous/unschooling attitudes are fairly wide-spread in my experience... From there you'll find the people you get on with and who will be supportive- whatever their philosophy.
The Home Education Network would be a good place to start, but if you let us know where you are I can ask about for local groups.
Online you'll find loads of UK yahoo groups and blogs.
Sarah
--- In [email protected], "Vivvie" <vivvie1703@...> wrote:
>
> HI everyone,
> this is my first time writing anything. I just intorduce myself a bit. My name is Amy and I live in Ireland ... So i was looking further and I am hoping to find a community in the UK where I find like minded people who respect their children and are open about a "no school" life. Would anyone know where I can find like minded people in the UK with the same idea? I know its quite specific but that is only in the intrest of my children. I also believe the whole process will run more smoothly if I am not relying on school and co. At the moment I study myself so there is no point in taking my child out of school just yet. So next year would be ideal.
>
> Anyway, thanks for reading. :)
>
> Have a nice week end.
>
> Amy
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different ideas.-=-
WHAT!? WHAT are you thinking!?
-=- But still i feel alone doing it in a country where I dont feel its
appriciated much. And I'd say personally for myself I need mental
support adn support in itself with sharing ideas. I feel if you are on
your own I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different
ideas. I cannot rely on it but I can tell if I am on my own my
children lose out on all the interesting things other places and
people can provide, too. -=-
Would you rather put them in school?
First look clearly at the choice you've made, rather than going on and
on, spiraling down in a hole about how it can't be done and will be
difficult and won't work. That's poison.
Someone has to be first in an area; perhaps it's you.
When I was first unschooling we waited two months for a copy of
Growing Without Schooling Magazine.
Now, today, you can read more about unschooling than existed in all
the earth 20 years ago.
Here is an index of five sites (one of them is the back issues of
growing without schooling). I fixed this up myself, with google
tools. Now please read a while.
http://www.unschooling.info/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
WHAT!? WHAT are you thinking!?
-=- But still i feel alone doing it in a country where I dont feel its
appriciated much. And I'd say personally for myself I need mental
support adn support in itself with sharing ideas. I feel if you are on
your own I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different
ideas. I cannot rely on it but I can tell if I am on my own my
children lose out on all the interesting things other places and
people can provide, too. -=-
Would you rather put them in school?
First look clearly at the choice you've made, rather than going on and
on, spiraling down in a hole about how it can't be done and will be
difficult and won't work. That's poison.
Someone has to be first in an area; perhaps it's you.
When I was first unschooling we waited two months for a copy of
Growing Without Schooling Magazine.
Now, today, you can read more about unschooling than existed in all
the earth 20 years ago.
Here is an index of five sites (one of them is the back issues of
growing without schooling). I fixed this up myself, with google
tools. Now please read a while.
http://www.unschooling.info/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
This is one of my favorite blogs from the UK. I don't know the person, I
stumbled upon it one day. What I like about it, are the short sweet blogs. The
author takes a negative saying about homeschooling and then turns it around with
a short sweet picture and description.
http://smughomeeducatingbastard.blogspot.com/
In the UK, there is compulsory education, in the US it is compulsory attendance.
Within compulsory education, homeschooling is just one choice. I'm not an
expert on the laws, it's an observation that I had.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stumbled upon it one day. What I like about it, are the short sweet blogs. The
author takes a negative saying about homeschooling and then turns it around with
a short sweet picture and description.
http://smughomeeducatingbastard.blogspot.com/
In the UK, there is compulsory education, in the US it is compulsory attendance.
Within compulsory education, homeschooling is just one choice. I'm not an
expert on the laws, it's an observation that I had.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/11/2010 12:55 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
compulsory education.
California. All of us who call ourselves homeschoolers are really
private or public schoolers. Unschooling is "legal" (and I would feel
comfortable defending it in court) because our private schools are not
regulated as to how children must be educated. As Sandra said, there is
research supporting this approach to education.
-pam
>In the US, it depends on the state. In California, at least, it is
> In the UK, there is compulsory education, in the US it is compulsory
> attendance.
compulsory education.
> Within compulsory education, homeschooling is just one choice.Again, depends on the place. There is no homeschooling option in
California. All of us who call ourselves homeschoolers are really
private or public schoolers. Unschooling is "legal" (and I would feel
comfortable defending it in court) because our private schools are not
regulated as to how children must be educated. As Sandra said, there is
research supporting this approach to education.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-In the UK, there is compulsory education, in the US it is
compulsory attendance. -=-
I hadn't thought of that in relation to homeschooling! Very good
thought!
The reason they changed laws from "compulsory education" to
"compulsory attendance" was that some former students and some
families sued schools (in the U.S., where lawsuits are like a hostile
handshake) because kid grew up without "an education." So to cover
their butts, the name of what school laws were doing was changed from
requiring it to be compulsory that each person get an education, to
being compulsory that butts are in chairs, as it were. (And that's
as it still is.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
compulsory attendance. -=-
I hadn't thought of that in relation to homeschooling! Very good
thought!
The reason they changed laws from "compulsory education" to
"compulsory attendance" was that some former students and some
families sued schools (in the U.S., where lawsuits are like a hostile
handshake) because kid grew up without "an education." So to cover
their butts, the name of what school laws were doing was changed from
requiring it to be compulsory that each person get an education, to
being compulsory that butts are in chairs, as it were. (And that's
as it still is.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> In the UK, there is compulsory education, in the US it is compulsory-=-In the US, it depends on the state. In California, at least, it is
> attendance.
compulsory education.-=-
Right after I read that, as I'm doing all these things at the same time:
watering the yard
boiling chicken for tomorrow
making cookies
playing plants vs. zombies
listening to Cyril Ritchard read Alice in Wonderland
checking e-mail as it arrives
this came by:
"You were not attending," said the mouse to Alice severely. "What are
you thinking of?"
This reminds me that the phrase "school attendance," in my life,
caused me (and millions more, no doubt) to think "attend" means to be
there. Attending a play, attending a concert.
But in the back of my mind I know it means to listen to, to pay
attention to someone. "Attendants" don't just *be* there. They pay
attention.
Alice wasn't listening to the mouse because she was thinking of
something else, and because she likes cats and dogs more than she
likes stories about the history of why a mouse doesn't like cats or
dogs, and so she had zoned out, thinking.
If unschooling involves whatever is most interesting in the moment, my
children have had perfect attendance for many years! Maybe I should
make them something like this:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/Sandra/teens/attendance7thGrade.jpg
While I was looking for that, this whole post became a blogpost with
more commentary and a video of Cyril Ritchard doing Captain Hook's
Waltz from the American musical of Peter Pan.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2010/09/compulsion-and-attendance.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vivvie
Hi sandra,
I was very much raised in the old fashion way so for me its hard hard to let got and I feel not up for it on my own. Thats why I want to have this support of other people. I dont know if that makes sense.
Amy
> -=- I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different ideas.-=-its hard for me to explain. No i dont want my children to go to school. But I am prepaired to move. And thats what I mean wioth community. I would liek to live with people who are like minded. So my children have more people around them. They have more possibilities to learn (and I know its then up to them what they want to learn, I dont want to interfere directly). In the area I am now living in, people already look weird, when my kids only play outside in underwear, when they dont wear jackets when its raining and worst of all go to the playground on their own. People here fear bad things. In a way i think thats poison for my children. And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice as hard to stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social workers for neglect) and that I think can be stopping my children from making positive experiences. In a community there are different people (if likeminded but still different).
>
> WHAT!? WHAT are you thinking!?
I was very much raised in the old fashion way so for me its hard hard to let got and I feel not up for it on my own. Thats why I want to have this support of other people. I dont know if that makes sense.
Amy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different ideas.-=-
>
> WHAT!? WHAT are you thinking!?
>
> -=- But still i feel alone doing it in a country where I dont feel its
> appriciated much. And I'd say personally for myself I need mental
> support adn support in itself with sharing ideas. I feel if you are on
> your own I cannot provide a learning enviroment and offer different
> ideas. I cannot rely on it but I can tell if I am on my own my
> children lose out on all the interesting things other places and
> people can provide, too. -=-
>
> Would you rather put them in school?
>
> First look clearly at the choice you've made, rather than going on and
> on, spiraling down in a hole about how it can't be done and will be
> difficult and won't work. That's poison.
>
> Someone has to be first in an area; perhaps it's you.
>
> When I was first unschooling we waited two months for a copy of
> Growing Without Schooling Magazine.
> Now, today, you can read more about unschooling than existed in all
> the earth 20 years ago.
>
> Here is an index of five sites (one of them is the back issues of
> growing without schooling). I fixed this up myself, with google
> tools. Now please read a while.
>
> http://www.unschooling.info/
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Vivvie
Hi Sarah,
thanks for your reply. I am based in Bray, County Wicklow, South of Dublin. I would be glad if you could help me out here.
Another thing, is it possible to unschool (homeschool) when you are a single mother relying on the goverments money. Ideally I think, it helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and can support them with my skills. If I'd be working I have to have people taking over my childrens education or mind them in a way.
Amy
thanks for your reply. I am based in Bray, County Wicklow, South of Dublin. I would be glad if you could help me out here.
Another thing, is it possible to unschool (homeschool) when you are a single mother relying on the goverments money. Ideally I think, it helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and can support them with my skills. If I'd be working I have to have people taking over my childrens education or mind them in a way.
Amy
--- In [email protected], "Sarah" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> Where abouts in Ireland? I'm in N. Ireland on the North Coast...
>
> I'd start with local home-ed groups - autonomous/unschooling attitudes are fairly wide-spread in my experience... From there you'll find the people you get on with and who will be supportive- whatever their philosophy.
>
> The Home Education Network would be a good place to start, but if you let us know where you are I can ask about for local groups.
>
> Online you'll find loads of UK yahoo groups and blogs.
>
> Sarah
>
> --- In [email protected], "Vivvie" <vivvie1703@> wrote:
> >
> > HI everyone,
> > this is my first time writing anything. I just intorduce myself a bit. My name is Amy and I live in Ireland ... So i was looking further and I am hoping to find a community in the UK where I find like minded people who respect their children and are open about a "no school" life. Would anyone know where I can find like minded people in the UK with the same idea? I know its quite specific but that is only in the intrest of my children. I also believe the whole process will run more smoothly if I am not relying on school and co. At the moment I study myself so there is no point in taking my child out of school just yet. So next year would be ideal.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for reading. :)
> >
> > Have a nice week end.
> >
> > Amy
> >
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Another thing, is it possible to unschool (homeschool) when you are
a single mother relying on the goverments money. Ideally I think, it
helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and
can support them with my skills. If I'd be working I have to have
people taking over my childrens education or mind them in a way.-=-
This is quite a different kind of topic. Unschooling isn't about
having other people educate your children.
-=- I am prepaired to move. And thats what I mean wioth community. I
would liek to live with people who are like minded. So my children
have more people around them. They have more possibilities to learn-=-
Other unschoolers don't owe "community" to all unschoolers. That's
not living in the real world. That's an attempt to escape the real
world.
-=- (and I know its then up to them what they want to learn, I dont
want to interfere directly).-=-
This is a misunderstanding. It's not about children learning what
they want to with parents not "interfering." It's about creating
relationships that allow learning to flow all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
-=-In the area I am now living in, people already look weird, when my
kids only play outside in underwear, when they dont wear jackets when
its raining and worst of all go to the playground on their own. People
here fear bad things. In a way i think thats poison for my children.
And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice
as hard to stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social
workers for neglect) and that I think can be stopping my children from
making positive experiences. In a community there are different people
(if likeminded but still different).
-=-
I think you want a fantasy.
Why should your kids be playing outside in their underwear? If they
want to wear just a little bit of clothes, find shorts and t-shirts.
Depending on the playground and your children's ages, ANY neighborhood
could consider you neglectful for not being with them.
I think it could be poison for your children for you to be looking
outward, blaming other people for their gaze and thoughts rather than
spending that time and energy helping your children live more safely
in the moment, in the day, in the park.
There have been instances of families moving to other places where
there are more unschoolers only to find that their kids didn't hit it
off with those other unschoolers. That's why I say unschoolers don't
owe others "community." If an unschooling family moved in next door
to me, we might be friends and we might not. It depends on MANY more
things than unschooling. And if unschoolers moved in next door to me
and seemed happy to let their kids play outside in underwear, go out
without jackets in the snow (we don't get much rain), and go to the
park alone (if the kids were really young), I would be embarrassed.
And if I spoke to the mom and she said "But we're unschoolers!" I
would be irritated. Unschooling doesn't need to be associated with
neglect. There's no advantage to anyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a single mother relying on the goverments money. Ideally I think, it
helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and
can support them with my skills. If I'd be working I have to have
people taking over my childrens education or mind them in a way.-=-
This is quite a different kind of topic. Unschooling isn't about
having other people educate your children.
-=- I am prepaired to move. And thats what I mean wioth community. I
would liek to live with people who are like minded. So my children
have more people around them. They have more possibilities to learn-=-
Other unschoolers don't owe "community" to all unschoolers. That's
not living in the real world. That's an attempt to escape the real
world.
-=- (and I know its then up to them what they want to learn, I dont
want to interfere directly).-=-
This is a misunderstanding. It's not about children learning what
they want to with parents not "interfering." It's about creating
relationships that allow learning to flow all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
-=-In the area I am now living in, people already look weird, when my
kids only play outside in underwear, when they dont wear jackets when
its raining and worst of all go to the playground on their own. People
here fear bad things. In a way i think thats poison for my children.
And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice
as hard to stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social
workers for neglect) and that I think can be stopping my children from
making positive experiences. In a community there are different people
(if likeminded but still different).
-=-
I think you want a fantasy.
Why should your kids be playing outside in their underwear? If they
want to wear just a little bit of clothes, find shorts and t-shirts.
Depending on the playground and your children's ages, ANY neighborhood
could consider you neglectful for not being with them.
I think it could be poison for your children for you to be looking
outward, blaming other people for their gaze and thoughts rather than
spending that time and energy helping your children live more safely
in the moment, in the day, in the park.
There have been instances of families moving to other places where
there are more unschoolers only to find that their kids didn't hit it
off with those other unschoolers. That's why I say unschoolers don't
owe others "community." If an unschooling family moved in next door
to me, we might be friends and we might not. It depends on MANY more
things than unschooling. And if unschoolers moved in next door to me
and seemed happy to let their kids play outside in underwear, go out
without jackets in the snow (we don't get much rain), and go to the
park alone (if the kids were really young), I would be embarrassed.
And if I spoke to the mom and she said "But we're unschoolers!" I
would be irritated. Unschooling doesn't need to be associated with
neglect. There's no advantage to anyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vivvie
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
But I cannot divide myself having a child aged three and one aged 6. If she wants to go to the playground and my young one doesnt want to come along... what am I supposed to do? I mean we grow up going off when we wanted to and played with friends. So if my daughter wishes it why stop her from doing it? Or do I misunderstand? She feels proud of doing things on her own.
>I know that all right. But my question was simply if it is possible. So in a way I prefer communes where people simply support each other. and they are there, i know of a few in Germany but its illigal not to send them to school or there strict criteria to homeschool. So I was hoping to find a commune. Annyway, I said that already.
> -=-Another thing, is it possible to unschool (homeschool) when you are
> a single mother relying on the goverments money. Ideally I think, it
> helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and
> can support them with my skills. If I'd be working I have to have
> people taking over my childrens education or mind them in a way.-=-
>
> This is quite a different kind of topic. Unschooling isn't about
> having other people educate your children.
>
> -=- I am prepaired to move. And thats what I mean wioth community. IThey would look anyway, since they like playing naked and least the young one does.
> would liek to live with people who are like minded. So my children
> have more people around them. They have more possibilities to learn-=-
>
> Other unschoolers don't owe "community" to all unschoolers. That's
> not living in the real world. That's an attempt to escape the real
> world.
>
> -=- (and I know its then up to them what they want to learn, I dont
> want to interfere directly).-=-
>
> This is a misunderstanding. It's not about children learning what
> they want to with parents not "interfering." It's about creating
> relationships that allow learning to flow all the time.
> http://sandradodd.com/nest
>
> -=-In the area I am now living in, people already look weird, when my
> kids only play outside in underwear, when they dont wear jackets when
> its raining and worst of all go to the playground on their own. People
> here fear bad things. In a way i think thats poison for my children.
> And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice
> as hard to stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social
> workers for neglect) and that I think can be stopping my children from
> making positive experiences. In a community there are different people
> (if likeminded but still different).
> -=-
>
> I think you want a fantasy.
> Why should your kids be playing outside in their underwear? If they
> want to wear just a little bit of clothes, find shorts and t-shirts.
> Depending on the playground and your children's ages, ANY neighborhood
> could consider you neglectful for not being with them.
>
But I cannot divide myself having a child aged three and one aged 6. If she wants to go to the playground and my young one doesnt want to come along... what am I supposed to do? I mean we grow up going off when we wanted to and played with friends. So if my daughter wishes it why stop her from doing it? Or do I misunderstand? She feels proud of doing things on her own.
> I think it could be poison for your children for you to be lookingBut from the outside world it can be associate with neglect because they have other things in mind. I am considering my children happy playing freely even though they are dirty. But I dont want to force them to clean every time and things like that. I am just saying people outside have different ideas about neglect than I probably would. My priorities are somewhere else not like theirs. So I cannot stop them from thinking it if they do.
> outward, blaming other people for their gaze and thoughts rather than
> spending that time and energy helping your children live more safely
> in the moment, in the day, in the park.
>
> There have been instances of families moving to other places where
> there are more unschoolers only to find that their kids didn't hit it
> off with those other unschoolers. That's why I say unschoolers don't
> owe others "community." If an unschooling family moved in next door
> to me, we might be friends and we might not. It depends on MANY more
> things than unschooling. And if unschoolers moved in next door to me
> and seemed happy to let their kids play outside in underwear, go out
> without jackets in the snow (we don't get much rain), and go to the
> park alone (if the kids were really young), I would be embarrassed.
> And if I spoke to the mom and she said "But we're unschoolers!" I
> would be irritated. Unschooling doesn't need to be associated with
> neglect. There's no advantage to anyone.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
plaidpanties666
"Vivvie" <vivvie1703@...> wrote:
I've lived comunnally and while I enjoyed that, community living isn't a magic bullet for unschooling. If anything, it provides a whole 'nother set of challenges, the kind you get when you're trying to unschool while living with people who don't understand what you want to do or why. In that sense, its rather like living with extended family.
Communities form because of shared Adult values, and that only leaves room for supporting natural learning when kids are perfectly sanguine about those adult values. The positive stories I've heard about unschooling in community have stressed that its vital for parents to advocate for their kids against the community as a whole - its do-able, but its not easier or better, necessarily, than living anywhere else. You don't get the perfect village, you get a bunch of human beings with histories and baggage, most of whom are absolutely sure that "respecting children" means teaching them lessons about respect and "natural learning" means no plastic toys or electronics.
The best fit for unschoolers in community - for anyone who may be looking - is something closer to an eco-village setup. Basically, the more independent your family is from the community, the less chances for conflict concerning how you're raising your kids. Income sharing communities are the least likely "fit" for unschoolers, as those will have the most ideological expectations as to how community members and their children spend their time.
Its not impossible to unschool in community, but its not an ideal, either.
---Meredith
>Ideally I think, it helps if i live in a commune (i hope that is the right word now)and can support them with my skills.********************
I've lived comunnally and while I enjoyed that, community living isn't a magic bullet for unschooling. If anything, it provides a whole 'nother set of challenges, the kind you get when you're trying to unschool while living with people who don't understand what you want to do or why. In that sense, its rather like living with extended family.
Communities form because of shared Adult values, and that only leaves room for supporting natural learning when kids are perfectly sanguine about those adult values. The positive stories I've heard about unschooling in community have stressed that its vital for parents to advocate for their kids against the community as a whole - its do-able, but its not easier or better, necessarily, than living anywhere else. You don't get the perfect village, you get a bunch of human beings with histories and baggage, most of whom are absolutely sure that "respecting children" means teaching them lessons about respect and "natural learning" means no plastic toys or electronics.
The best fit for unschoolers in community - for anyone who may be looking - is something closer to an eco-village setup. Basically, the more independent your family is from the community, the less chances for conflict concerning how you're raising your kids. Income sharing communities are the least likely "fit" for unschoolers, as those will have the most ideological expectations as to how community members and their children spend their time.
Its not impossible to unschool in community, but its not an ideal, either.
---Meredith
Schuyler
I know nothing about communes in the UK. This isn't a list that is about
searching for communes in the UK. My guess is that you need to search beyond the
boundaries of an unschooling list that is largely read by folks in the U.S. in
order to find a commune that will support you in the ways in which you desire.
If you want to unschool, if you want to home-educate, if you want to go outside
the bounds of that which is normal, you are going to be questioned and people
will wonder at your decisions. In order to maintain your privilege of
home-educating your children in a country that to some extent sees children as
the responsibility of the state, which is certainly true in Britain although I
don't know about Ireland, than letting a 6 year old go to the park on her own
shouldn't be among your first options. Having two children and only one adult in
a situation with little money to get others to help means that you have to come
up with ways to engage both of them in an activity. Find things that your 3 year
old would like doing at the park sometimes and find things your 6 year old would
like doing at home sometimes. Unschooling is about looking for solutions to
problems, it's about connecting with your children more. Letting a 6 year old go
to the park on her own may seem like it's harkening back to older values, but it
can put your whole set of choices at risk of being not only questioned but
removed. Even if it doesn't feel like neglect, it is better to be more actively
looking for solutions that aren't about your children forging off on their own
at young ages.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
searching for communes in the UK. My guess is that you need to search beyond the
boundaries of an unschooling list that is largely read by folks in the U.S. in
order to find a commune that will support you in the ways in which you desire.
If you want to unschool, if you want to home-educate, if you want to go outside
the bounds of that which is normal, you are going to be questioned and people
will wonder at your decisions. In order to maintain your privilege of
home-educating your children in a country that to some extent sees children as
the responsibility of the state, which is certainly true in Britain although I
don't know about Ireland, than letting a 6 year old go to the park on her own
shouldn't be among your first options. Having two children and only one adult in
a situation with little money to get others to help means that you have to come
up with ways to engage both of them in an activity. Find things that your 3 year
old would like doing at the park sometimes and find things your 6 year old would
like doing at home sometimes. Unschooling is about looking for solutions to
problems, it's about connecting with your children more. Letting a 6 year old go
to the park on her own may seem like it's harkening back to older values, but it
can put your whole set of choices at risk of being not only questioned but
removed. Even if it doesn't feel like neglect, it is better to be more actively
looking for solutions that aren't about your children forging off on their own
at young ages.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that all right. But my question was simply if it is
possible. So in a way I prefer communes where people simply support
each other. and they are there, i know of a few in Germany but its
illigal not to send them to school or there strict criteria to
homeschool. So I was hoping to find a commune. Annyway, I said that
already. -=-
If you're doing this on your own, the only rules you need to contend
with are local laws.
Communes add another (often very deep) set of rules and immediate
feedback, and the ever-present risk of expulsion from the commune. If
a commune decides all the children will do this, or that, that's hard
to buck. If you live where homeschooling is legal, then you have the
law on your side.
I am guessing you don't live where public nudity or six year olds
unattended in public places are acceptable.
My kids played naked in the back yard, in water or in mud or the sand
box, up to the time they were five or so, but not in the front yard.
There really is a difference.
-=-But I cannot divide myself having a child aged three and one aged
6. If she wants to go to the playground and my young one doesnt want
to come along... what am I supposed to do?-=-
I had three children in a five and a half year span and managed to
keep them together, or traded out with friends for childcare, or left
one with my husband to take the other two somewhere. Some people
have five kids, or seven, but they don't just say "oh well" if they go
in that many different directions.
-=-So if my daughter wishes it why stop her from doing it? Or do I
misunderstand? She feels proud of doing things on her own. -=-
I think you're misunderstanding in a way that others have before too.
Becoming an unschooler doesn't change one's relationship with the
outside world. It doesn't give anyone a pass to behave differently in
museums or stores or at other people's houses. Just inside your own
home. It's not about changing other people's beliefs and practices,
but about changing our own.
Jenny Cyphers wrote something nice, this morning or last night, at the
Radical Unschoolers Network ning, and I saved my favorite part:
"Just like ALL learning, learning how to live comfortably and happy
are really wonderful things. It takes a focus on turning away from
what you know you don't like and turning towards something else, that
something else that creates happy learning and living. Unschooling
really is a shift in thinking and then acting on it."
"Turning toward something else" should be something immediate and
doable, though, not a commune that probably doesn't exist. Meredith
is absolutely right about this: "You don't get the perfect village,
you get a bunch of human beings with histories and baggage, most of
whom are absolutely sure that "respecting children" means teaching
them lessons about respect and "natural learning" means no plastic
toys or electronics."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
possible. So in a way I prefer communes where people simply support
each other. and they are there, i know of a few in Germany but its
illigal not to send them to school or there strict criteria to
homeschool. So I was hoping to find a commune. Annyway, I said that
already. -=-
If you're doing this on your own, the only rules you need to contend
with are local laws.
Communes add another (often very deep) set of rules and immediate
feedback, and the ever-present risk of expulsion from the commune. If
a commune decides all the children will do this, or that, that's hard
to buck. If you live where homeschooling is legal, then you have the
law on your side.
I am guessing you don't live where public nudity or six year olds
unattended in public places are acceptable.
My kids played naked in the back yard, in water or in mud or the sand
box, up to the time they were five or so, but not in the front yard.
There really is a difference.
-=-But I cannot divide myself having a child aged three and one aged
6. If she wants to go to the playground and my young one doesnt want
to come along... what am I supposed to do?-=-
I had three children in a five and a half year span and managed to
keep them together, or traded out with friends for childcare, or left
one with my husband to take the other two somewhere. Some people
have five kids, or seven, but they don't just say "oh well" if they go
in that many different directions.
-=-So if my daughter wishes it why stop her from doing it? Or do I
misunderstand? She feels proud of doing things on her own. -=-
I think you're misunderstanding in a way that others have before too.
Becoming an unschooler doesn't change one's relationship with the
outside world. It doesn't give anyone a pass to behave differently in
museums or stores or at other people's houses. Just inside your own
home. It's not about changing other people's beliefs and practices,
but about changing our own.
Jenny Cyphers wrote something nice, this morning or last night, at the
Radical Unschoolers Network ning, and I saved my favorite part:
"Just like ALL learning, learning how to live comfortably and happy
are really wonderful things. It takes a focus on turning away from
what you know you don't like and turning towards something else, that
something else that creates happy learning and living. Unschooling
really is a shift in thinking and then acting on it."
"Turning toward something else" should be something immediate and
doable, though, not a commune that probably doesn't exist. Meredith
is absolutely right about this: "You don't get the perfect village,
you get a bunch of human beings with histories and baggage, most of
whom are absolutely sure that "respecting children" means teaching
them lessons about respect and "natural learning" means no plastic
toys or electronics."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/11/2010 3:04 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
can't they? Attending in that sense seems a bit old-fashioned, but I've
heard it used by professional educators to mean "on task."
-pam
> If unschooling involves whatever is most interesting in the moment, myAttending and paying attention can have pretty much the same meaning,
> children have had perfect attendance for many years! Maybe I should
> make them something like this:
can't they? Attending in that sense seems a bit old-fashioned, but I've
heard it used by professional educators to mean "on task."
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/12/2010 9:41 AM, Vivvie wrote:
communities and has a directory. I think you'll find more help there if
what you're looking for is a communish type of living arrangement. There
are such groups in the US and probably elsewhere, I've know a few people
who lived in them and I bet there are a few on this list. But this list
is about unschooling, not about communal living. Most communes or
intentional communities don't involve unschooling or even homeschooling.
Unschoolers are idiosyncratic and often have strong personalities (kids
and parents) -- living in close quarters with a big group of unschoolers
never sounded very appealing to me. I may love that they can raise their
own families in their own unique ways, but their ways are not
necessarily going to be comfortable for me and my family. My kids would
drive some other families crazy to live with on a daily basis. "I" would
drive some others crazy. Some people are relaxed and easy going and
their idea of a good day is to take a long walk in the woods, maybe swim
a little, bake some bread, do some puzzles together. In the meantime, my
family would be wanting to go to a show, a museum, a festival, or
something. Or - my family might be into debating current events and
arguing issues and another family might be trying to withdraw from
contention and practice finding commonalities. Etc. My point is that
unschooling doesn't make us compatible for living together.
-pam
-pam
>Vivvie --- try going to <ic.org> --- it is a site about intentional
> But from the outside world it can be associate with neglect because
> they have other things in mind. I am considering my children happy
> playing freely even though they are dirty. But I dont want to force
> them to clean every time and things like that. I am just saying people
> outside have different ideas about neglect than I probably would. My
> priorities are somewhere else not like theirs. So I cannot stop them
> from thinking it if they do.
communities and has a directory. I think you'll find more help there if
what you're looking for is a communish type of living arrangement. There
are such groups in the US and probably elsewhere, I've know a few people
who lived in them and I bet there are a few on this list. But this list
is about unschooling, not about communal living. Most communes or
intentional communities don't involve unschooling or even homeschooling.
Unschoolers are idiosyncratic and often have strong personalities (kids
and parents) -- living in close quarters with a big group of unschoolers
never sounded very appealing to me. I may love that they can raise their
own families in their own unique ways, but their ways are not
necessarily going to be comfortable for me and my family. My kids would
drive some other families crazy to live with on a daily basis. "I" would
drive some others crazy. Some people are relaxed and easy going and
their idea of a good day is to take a long walk in the woods, maybe swim
a little, bake some bread, do some puzzles together. In the meantime, my
family would be wanting to go to a show, a museum, a festival, or
something. Or - my family might be into debating current events and
arguing issues and another family might be trying to withdraw from
contention and practice finding commonalities. Etc. My point is that
unschooling doesn't make us compatible for living together.
-pam
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
*** I am just saying people outside have different ideas about neglect than I
probably would. My priorities are somewhere else not like theirs. So I cannot
stop them from thinking it if they do. ***
You also cannot stop someone from calling the authorities if they think you are
being a neglectful parent. Within any neighborhood there will likely be a busy
body person that wants to police the community. That's been the case in almost
every neighborhood I've lived in.
Even if you get investigated and are found innocent, it puts fear in your lives
that need not be there. If the prevention is as easy as keeping kids in
clothing and going to the park with them, it seems a better option to do that
than risk the other.
Most people in my neighborhood consider homeschooling to be something strange
and foreign, and we live in a very homeschool friendly place. I don't want to
socially ostracize myself and my family by behaving and being such a way that
all my neighbors find us so out there that they won't allow their kids to play
with mine. Sometimes that might be a blessing... depending on what the neighbor
kids are like!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
probably would. My priorities are somewhere else not like theirs. So I cannot
stop them from thinking it if they do. ***
You also cannot stop someone from calling the authorities if they think you are
being a neglectful parent. Within any neighborhood there will likely be a busy
body person that wants to police the community. That's been the case in almost
every neighborhood I've lived in.
Even if you get investigated and are found innocent, it puts fear in your lives
that need not be there. If the prevention is as easy as keeping kids in
clothing and going to the park with them, it seems a better option to do that
than risk the other.
Most people in my neighborhood consider homeschooling to be something strange
and foreign, and we live in a very homeschool friendly place. I don't want to
socially ostracize myself and my family by behaving and being such a way that
all my neighbors find us so out there that they won't allow their kids to play
with mine. Sometimes that might be a blessing... depending on what the neighbor
kids are like!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***People here fear bad things. In a way i think thats poison for my children.
And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice as hard to
stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social workers for neglect)
and that I think can be stopping my children from making positive
experiences. ***
I understand that. I don't like how fearful our culture has become. It can
drive parents crazy with worry that there are child abductors hiding behind
every bush, or online predators lurking around every site your child might
visit.
That, to me, seems to be a different issue than fear of social workers. One
need not be neglectful to not live in fear. This isn't an unschooling site, but
it's an interesting one about raising children outside of that fear
base... http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/
Yet, all of that isn't unschooling. Unschooling is certainly turning away from
a system, but it doesn't involve neglect and shouldn't involve anything that
looks like neglect. It's more about happy learning than letting kids run around
by themselves or run naked in the front yard. Those are individual things that
are pretty contextual.
Our family lives one block from a HUGE 70 acre park with 7 playgrounds, the
nearest being at the entrance near our house. I wouldn't let my 9 yr old go
there alone, but I would let her go with a group of kids from the neighborhood,
if they all knew to stick together and I could trust them to do that. The kids
in our neighborhood that my daughter plays with range in age from 4-11. I'd
also let her ride her bike to the mini mart 2 blocks away if she was with at
least one other person.
When she was 4 yrs old, she needed to stop running around naked because most of
the kids in our neighborhood at the time were older kids who found it
disturbing. We did it just as much to protect her from being teased as we did
to make our neighbor kids comfortable. Whatever I may have felt about 4 yr olds
being naked, the reality was that I cared about how others felt too. I don't
live in a world away from others.
People who choose to live communally come from the same culture that all the
rest of us do, they carry many of the same baggage. Even those that seek
another way to live will still have grown up in a culture that they are choosing
to avoid. So, I guess it depends on what the intentional community core values
are and whether they mesh with unschooling or child rearing, in general.
My own experience having lived with other families, both while I was a kid and
as an adult with kids, is that the other families may be the most wonderful
people and friends in the world, but that everyone parents differently and that
it can create conflict in even the best of the best situations.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And thats why I like to move away from it. So its first of all twice as hard to
stick to it (and fear of them reporting me to the social workers for neglect)
and that I think can be stopping my children from making positive
experiences. ***
I understand that. I don't like how fearful our culture has become. It can
drive parents crazy with worry that there are child abductors hiding behind
every bush, or online predators lurking around every site your child might
visit.
That, to me, seems to be a different issue than fear of social workers. One
need not be neglectful to not live in fear. This isn't an unschooling site, but
it's an interesting one about raising children outside of that fear
base... http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/
Yet, all of that isn't unschooling. Unschooling is certainly turning away from
a system, but it doesn't involve neglect and shouldn't involve anything that
looks like neglect. It's more about happy learning than letting kids run around
by themselves or run naked in the front yard. Those are individual things that
are pretty contextual.
Our family lives one block from a HUGE 70 acre park with 7 playgrounds, the
nearest being at the entrance near our house. I wouldn't let my 9 yr old go
there alone, but I would let her go with a group of kids from the neighborhood,
if they all knew to stick together and I could trust them to do that. The kids
in our neighborhood that my daughter plays with range in age from 4-11. I'd
also let her ride her bike to the mini mart 2 blocks away if she was with at
least one other person.
When she was 4 yrs old, she needed to stop running around naked because most of
the kids in our neighborhood at the time were older kids who found it
disturbing. We did it just as much to protect her from being teased as we did
to make our neighbor kids comfortable. Whatever I may have felt about 4 yr olds
being naked, the reality was that I cared about how others felt too. I don't
live in a world away from others.
People who choose to live communally come from the same culture that all the
rest of us do, they carry many of the same baggage. Even those that seek
another way to live will still have grown up in a culture that they are choosing
to avoid. So, I guess it depends on what the intentional community core values
are and whether they mesh with unschooling or child rearing, in general.
My own experience having lived with other families, both while I was a kid and
as an adult with kids, is that the other families may be the most wonderful
people and friends in the world, but that everyone parents differently and that
it can create conflict in even the best of the best situations.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]