mummichellec

I have 3 boys, 6, 10 and 13. My 13 year old stays up all night (4-5AM)
playing online games - Wizard101, Halo or watching TV. He gets up
around 2PM and goes down to the Computer immediately. He won't come
out of his 'cave' for anything but a meal, Soccer game twice a week or a
Boyscout event -camping/canoeing. He doesn't want to do anything with
the family. I talk to him after everyone is in bed. He likes what he is
doing......I take any opportunity to be with him (reading to him so he
can fall asleep earlier, fixing him meals). I always ask him if he
needs food, fun, friends etc and he says no. He fights with his
younger brothers and won't let them use the computer or be in the room
with him. He teases his 6 year old brother when they are around each
other and this results in physical/verbal fights between them. I ask
him if he is okay/lonely etc and he says he is fine. I am assuming he
is now a teenager and this is normal? He is pale because he doesn't
spend a lot of time outside. He is at BoyScout Camp this week - yeah!
But as soon as he gets home, he will be on the computer and up all night
again. Should I be concerned?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Some teens go through a period where they need a looooot of time alone. When Ray was 13, he was mostly nocturnal and played Runescape for hours and hours a night. He didn't want to be around younger kids and kept up the friendships he could online. Your guy has some regular social outtings, it seems like - he may not need more than that right now.

How long has your guy been out of school? It took Ray over a year to decompress from his time in school, and he spent most of that, it seemed, on the computer.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Jenny Cyphers

***My 13 year old stays up all night (4-5AM)
playing online games - Wizard101, Halo or watching TV. He gets up
around 2PM and goes down to the Computer immediately.***

Oh, I remember that schedule! When Chamille was 12, 13, and 14, she kept those
hours and was very connected to her computer.

***He doesn't want to do anything with
the family. I talk to him after everyone is in bed. He likes what he is
doing......I take any opportunity to be with him (reading to him so he
can fall asleep earlier, fixing him meals). I always ask him if he
needs food, fun, friends etc and he says no.***

His family isn't meeting his needs right now. Does he like you to come in and
talk to him? Does he like you to try to get him to fall asleep earlier? Stop
assuming that he needs something other than what he's seeking. He has friends
online, in Halo. He's having fun doing that. Fix him food and be kind, help
him make his nest comfortable.

***He fights with his
younger brothers and won't let them use the computer or be in the room
with him. He teases his 6 year old brother when they are around each
other and this results in physical/verbal fights between them. ***

Then by all means, don't force them to spend time together and keep the younger
kids out of his space and help them respect his privacy! If you are helping the
younger kids do that, stay away and out of his space, when he does spend time
with the family, he won't be so testy to his siblings because they haven't been
annoying him. Even if you don't think his siblings are annoying him, HE
probably feels that they are, so don't let it happen.

***I ask
him if he is okay/lonely etc and he says he is fine.***

Quit asking him this! Let him tell you if he feels those things. It seems if
you've asked repeatedly and the answer is always the same, then you should STOP
asking him. He will feel as if you are trying to change him when he doesn't
feel that way at all. It cuts of lines of communication if you are always
presenting yourself to him in this way. When you go in late at night, bring him
food and ask him about his games, but only if he seems receptive.

***He is pale because he doesn't
spend a lot of time outside. He is at BoyScout Camp this week - yeah! ***

You have a very clear bias against him being indoors and up all night. I hope
he's enjoying his camp! There is nothing wrong with being pale, less chance of
skin cancer. Make sure he's getting some vitamin D to offset his lack of sun!

***I am assuming he
is now a teenager and this is normal?***

***But as soon as he gets home, he will be on the computer and up all night
again. Should I be concerned?***

If he's 13, then you don't have to assume, he IS a teenager. When he gets home,
let him return to his comfortable place, wherever that is when he gets home.
Don't assume what he'll do. Be his partner in helping him be comfortable and
happy in whatever it is he wants to do!





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Sandra Dodd

-=-He is at BoyScout Camp this week - yeah!
But as soon as he gets home, he will be on the computer and up all night
again. Should I be concerned?-=-

I'm a little concerned that you consider boy scout camp to be vastly
superior to his being safe at home.

He's 13. How long has he been unschooled?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

casa_divina

When he gets home,
> let him return to his comfortable place, wherever that is when he gets home.
> Don't assume what he'll do. Be his partner in helping him be comfortable and
> happy in whatever it is he wants to do!
>



My daughter is 6 and has just about the same schedule as your son. Except she watches TV, not so much computer time as she doesn't read much yet.

Today, after a few days at home watching her favorite programs (Ben 10, Battle Force 5, Pucca and more) with no more than a few short breaks to eat and sleep, she left with her dad to go to a sports class for a few hours. When she gets home she will find a new mattress, new blankets and a clean table next to her bed with all of her favorite items: sharpened pencils for drawing while she watches, organized and stacked notebooks, remote control and a glass of water. She will be so happy to get back into bed! And I am so happy I can give that to her. I can't wait to snuggle with her in her new bed tonight and watch more Ben 10!

Find something you can do for your son while he's gone that will make him happy to be home!

Molly in Ecuador
Divina 6
Sabina 5

Sandra Dodd

-=-Some teens go through a period where they need a looooot of time
alone. When Ray was 13, he was mostly nocturnal and played Runescape
for hours and hours a night.-=-

Kirby did too, and he hadn't been to school. I think it's normal, and
a great luxury to let them figure out what is normal.

I think traditionally b0ys that age were put out to watch sheep or
guard something, because they weren't sleeping so much at night anyway.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-***He fights with his
younger brothers and won't let them use the computer or be in the room
with him. He teases his 6 year old brother when they are around each
other and this results in physical/verbal fights between them. ***

-=-Then by all means, don't force them to spend time together and keep
the younger
kids out of his space and help them respect his privacy! If you are
helping the
younger kids do that, stay away and out of his space, when he does
spend time
with the family, he won't be so testy to his siblings because they
haven't been
annoying him. Even if you don't think his siblings are annoying him, HE
probably feels that they are, so don't let it happen.-=-


Kirby was mean to Marty and wanted him to leave him alone with Kirby
was 13 and Marty was 10 and 11.

A few days ago Marty drove from Albuquerque to Austin (a long way) to
surprise Kirby for his birthday. They had a really good time together.

They didn't have to wait 11 years for that, though. By the time Marty
was 13 and Kirby was 15/16, Kirby was usually inviting Marty to go
along with him when he went gaming or for a party, and when Kirby
moved, Marty was already a solid part of the same social groups, and
inherited all the friends. :-)

Sandra

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mummichellec

Thanks! I need the support.

Jordan has always been homeschooled and we have been unschooling for about 4yrs. However, he wanted to try 6th grade last fall....he hated it and lasted 3 days (to my relief). In the last six months I have been letting go of all the 'rules, expectations etc' and have given him and his siblings their total freedom. Since we are so 'different' than our neighbors and other homeschoolers, it has been hard to connect with other teens like him. I have told him that I am giving him his freedom and I don't want him to think I am ignoring him or don't care about him. My DH commented that "Jordan is just working on his computer skills all night long." I just keep on breathing and having faith he is doing what he needs to do.

Michelle (Alex 6, Trevor 10, Jordan 13)
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> Some teens go through a period where they need a looooot of time alone. When Ray was 13, he was mostly nocturnal and played Runescape for hours and hours a night. He didn't want to be around younger kids and kept up the friendships he could online. Your guy has some regular social outtings, it seems like - he may not need more than that right now.
>
> How long has your guy been out of school? It took Ray over a year to decompress from his time in school, and he spent most of that, it seemed, on the computer.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>

Robin Bentley

> Jordan has always been homeschooled and we have been unschooling for
> about 4yrs. However, he wanted to try 6th grade last fall....he
> hated it and lasted 3 days (to my relief).
> In the last six months I have been letting go of all the 'rules,
> expectations etc' and have given him and his siblings their total
> freedom.

I'm curious. If you have been unschooling for 4 years and you hadn't
gradually let go of rules and expectations in that time, what was
happening? What do you mean by "total freedom"?

You'll notice that this list will recommend going slowly with changes,
saying yes more, Sandra's ""read a little, try a little, wait a while,
watch" approach.

> Since we are so 'different' than our neighbors and other
> homeschoolers, it has been hard to connect with other teens like
> him. I have told him that I am giving him his freedom and I don't
> want him to think I am ignoring him or don't care about him. My DH
> commented that "Jordan is just working on his computer skills all
> night long." I just keep on breathing and having faith he is doing
> what he needs to do.

It appears you're new here, so I suggest reading more to help you
"have faith" (though I wonder if maybe your husband has been reading
for a while <g>). Here are a couple of pages from Sandra's site about
teens and gaming to start you off.

http://sandradodd.com/teen/
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
(that's my daughter, dressed as her character in World of Warcraft, at
Blizzcon)

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Jordan has always been homeschooled and we have been unschooling
for about 4yrs. However, he wanted to try 6th grade last fall....he
hated it and lasted 3 days (to my relief). In the last six months I
have been letting go of all the 'rules, expectations etc' and have
given him and his siblings their total freedom. -=-

"Their total freedom" isn't a concept that's promoted on this list.

If you told him he could do whatever he wanted to do, that he HAD
"total freedom," then that's the deal at your house now, and you
shouldn't be asking us how to change it.

I think it was a mistake for you to have replaced rules and
expectations with "'their' total freedom" under any circumstances.

And if it's only recently that you stopped telling them what to do,
then he's making up for not having had choices for 13 years. That
WILL take a while.

Be careful with your words. That will help you be careful with your
thoughts. Thoughts and feelings can't be separated. So if your
feelings don't match your words, there's your problem.

http://sandradodd.com/words
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

Sandra

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Marina DeLuca-Howard

My boys are 7, 10 and 14. They are quite similar to yours, though Rowan
will invite the others to go to the corner store on a pop and chip run on
occasion.

My children have conflicts, though Rowan is very very patient, but more
tolerant of the younger brother than the middle child, who he feels talks
too much and is extremely boring.

Rowan tried being up all night, though we never officially had a bed time he
decided he didn't like it enough to make it permanent. So if he's playing
an new RPG or watching a new cartoon or reading a new book he will immerse
himself in it and may not sleep until 5 or 6am.

He is perfectly willing to share a meal with me alone if I invite him, as
his brothers and dad are away right now. He even comes grocery shopping on
occasion although not if his younger brothers are going.

If you are truly allowing him his freedom, accepting an invitation is not
going to be seen as an issue by your son. But from your description you are
allowing him to make choices but then redirecting his choices, or worrying.
If you have an issue you ought to talk to him and try to understand his
choices. He seems to be doing lots besides just being on the computer.

Do you run interference for him when the younger siblings are bugging him?
Marina


--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry

Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


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Jenny Cyphers

***In the last six months I have been letting go of all the 'rules, expectations
etc' and have given him and his siblings their total freedom. Since we are so
'different' than our neighbors and other homeschoolers, it has been hard to
connect with other teens like him. I have told him that I am giving him his
freedom and I don't want him to think I am ignoring him or don't care about
him.***

Have you replaced the rules and expectations with something else? Freedom is
great, but if kids are used to rules and expectations, they might not know what
to do instead. It can takes years of kind interactions with one another for
kids to stop reacting to one another in the ways in which they did when they had
rules and expectations.

I think kids will need MORE of mom rather than less, if mom has taken away rules
and expectations, at least for a while until things even out. Mom should be
more present, more aware, more available to settle disputes and give food and
comfort. If you have a rule of "no hitting", kids might still hit each other,
but if they've done so, the punishment is the end, mom is done and the child has
been punished for his crime and done his time, but if you abolish the rule, kids
still might hit, but mom needs to help settle disputes and listen and talk and
redirect, and more than anything prevent it from happening in the first place.
That kind of stuff takes time, but once it flows, life actually become easier.

Don't ignore your son, be there more for him, maybe not physically sitting next
to him all the time, but keep the younger ones away from his space, make sure
he's got comfort and food and all that good stuff, help him keep his peace.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Jordan has always been homeschooled and we have been unschooling
> for about 4yrs. However, he wanted to try 6th grade last fall....he
> hated it and lasted 3 days (to my relief). In the last six months I
> have been letting go of all the 'rules, expectations etc' and have
> given him and his siblings their total freedom. -=-
>
> "Their total freedom" isn't a concept that's promoted on this list.
>
> If you told him he could do whatever he wanted to do, that he HAD
> "total freedom," then that's the deal at your house now, and you
> shouldn't be asking us how to change it.
>
> I think it was a mistake for you to have replaced rules and
> expectations with "'their' total freedom" under any circumstances.
>
> And if it's only recently that you stopped telling them what to do,
> then he's making up for not having had choices for 13 years. That
> WILL take a while.
>
> Be careful with your words. That will help you be careful with your
> thoughts. Thoughts and feelings can't be separated. So if your
> feelings don't match your words, there's your problem.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/words
> http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




Just a thought from my own experience.

I don't think anybody ever has total freedom. My son doesn't have total freedom even though he does things that may make it appear as if he does, such as play videogames all night and sleep in until lunchtime or later. He does what he chooses to do. Occasionally what he chooses to do is comply with a request to do what somebody else wants him to do at the time. He isn't given chores, for example, but I might ask him to load the dishwasher if that needs to be done right now and I'm doing something else. That kind of thing. That's all as it should be I think, since we live interactive lives.

What's been useful to me is to aim for "maximum freedom". I've found with that in mind that I can push the "boundaries" of behaviour out a long long way before I start to get "edgy". :-)

Bob

mummichellec

I cannot exactly pinpoint when we started unschooling because it has been such a gradual process of letting go. It has been in 'process' since my youngest was born - Alex is now 6.

Yes, he is at Boyscout Camp and my DH is there with him and we will be changing up tomorrow and I wiil go have some fun at camp too. It is his 3rd time going to camp and he has always had his parents there with him at every Scouting event.

In response to other posts, I do intervene when he is being disturbed by his brothers - usually they want to use the computer too (we have only one at this time and it due to other choices we cannot purchase another one for at least 6-9 months). I am always bringing him food, water etc. I do not try to get him off the computer and I do ask questions about his games.

I am new to the group and appreciate the comments...

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-He is at BoyScout Camp this week - yeah!
> But as soon as he gets home, he will be on the computer and up all night
> again. Should I be concerned?-=-
>
> I'm a little concerned that you consider boy scout camp to be vastly
> superior to his being safe at home.
>
> He's 13. How long has he been unschooled?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

k

I got a used computer for free one time on freecycle (it was a
university town so the item was luckily available). It was good enough
for playing online games for a while. I also got several monitors and
still have a couple of them. Good ones, CRT monitors people were
getting rid of in favor of flat screens.

Craigslist might have something for cheap. Some computer fixing
businesses sell at least low-end computers for fairly cheap.

For younger kids, it doesn't have to be topnotch gaming equipment. DS
lites and the new DSi aren't too horribly pricey... less than $200 and
maybe they could each have one and play Mario Kart or something like
that together. Karl spends hours on his sometimes, and I hope to get a
DS lite for myself pretty soon cuz I know he'd love to have a game
buddy, especially one he could beat every time (haha).

~Katherine




On 8/4/10, mummichellec <justinmichellec@...> wrote:
>
> I cannot exactly pinpoint when we started unschooling because it has been
> such a gradual process of letting go. It has been in 'process' since my
> youngest was born - Alex is now 6.
>
> Yes, he is at Boyscout Camp and my DH is there with him and we will be
> changing up tomorrow and I wiil go have some fun at camp too. It is his 3rd
> time going to camp and he has always had his parents there with him at every
> Scouting event.
>
> In response to other posts, I do intervene when he is being disturbed by
> his brothers - usually they want to use the computer too (we have only one
> at this time and it due to other choices we cannot purchase another one for
> at least 6-9 months). I am always bringing him food, water etc. I do not
> try to get him off the computer and I do ask questions about his games.
>
> I am new to the group and appreciate the comments...
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-He is at BoyScout Camp this week - yeah!
>> But as soon as he gets home, he will be on the computer and up all night
>> again. Should I be concerned?-=-
>>
>> I'm a little concerned that you consider boy scout camp to be vastly
>> superior to his being safe at home.
>>
>> He's 13. How long has he been unschooled?
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

k

>>>For younger kids, it doesn't have to be topnotch gaming equipment. DS
lites and the new DSi aren't too horribly pricey... less than $200<<<

DS lites are $129 and I found cheaper used ones at Gamestop
DSi is $169 and even the DSi XL is $189 but refurbished ones are under $100
Personally I like the DS lite because it can play DS cartridges as
well as the older (cheaper) Gameboy Advance cartridges but it has no
camera like the DSi.

~Katherine

plaidpanties666

Used console systems (Xbox, PS2, Game Cube) can relieve a lot of competition for computers. Get the older models and the games will be cheaper, too. If there are pawn shops in your area, they're often good places for cheap electronics.

---Meredith

k

You can research which models were the better made ones. Probably most
of them were made with the frustration factor in mind. ;) We got a $15
Nerf armor for Karl's DS which snaps on the body very snuggly and has
saved it from all but the loosening of the hinge (which could be fixed
probably). He's had the thing for close to 4 years now.

We got an old Nintendo 64 console with 2 controllers for $35 at a flea
market and it came with some games (Super Mario 64, for one). I've
seen them in a couple of thrift stores too. We asked to plug it in
before buying it to see if it still works and it sure does! I've seen
Gamecubes too. And Gamestop still has lots of used games for
Gamecube.. which is still pretty popular.

~Katherine





On 8/4/10, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> Used console systems (Xbox, PS2, Game Cube) can relieve a lot of competition
> for computers. Get the older models and the games will be cheaper, too. If
> there are pawn shops in your area, they're often good places for cheap
> electronics.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

k

And if you don't have another tv, I almost got one of the huge screen
tv's on freecycle but I didn't have a truck or trailer or muscle for
hauling the thing. Those pop up as people replace old tv sets with
newer flat screens. Great for gaming. You could also check Craigslist
for used ones for cheap.

~Katherine



On 8/4/10, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> You can research which models were the better made ones. Probably most
> of them were made with the frustration factor in mind. ;) We got a $15
> Nerf armor for Karl's DS which snaps on the body very snuggly and has
> saved it from all but the loosening of the hinge (which could be fixed
> probably). He's had the thing for close to 4 years now.
>
> We got an old Nintendo 64 console with 2 controllers for $35 at a flea
> market and it came with some games (Super Mario 64, for one). I've
> seen them in a couple of thrift stores too. We asked to plug it in
> before buying it to see if it still works and it sure does! I've seen
> Gamecubes too. And Gamestop still has lots of used games for
> Gamecube.. which is still pretty popular.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8/4/10, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>> Used console systems (Xbox, PS2, Game Cube) can relieve a lot of
>> competition
>> for computers. Get the older models and the games will be cheaper, too.
>> If
>> there are pawn shops in your area, they're often good places for cheap
>> electronics.
>>
>> ---Meredith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-We got an old Nintendo 64 console with 2 controllers for $35 at a
flea
market and it came with some games (Super Mario 64, for one). I've
seen them in a couple of thrift stores too. We asked to plug it in
before buying it to see if it still works and it sure does! I've seen
Gamecubes too. And Gamestop still has lots of used games for
Gamecube.. which is still pretty popular.-=-

Holly says 64s are good, but the controllers were not sturdy so
they're hard to find.

Gamecube, she says the joy sticks were made better.

Those are Holly's recommedations. She's used all the systems.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wtexans

===Holly says 64s are good, but the controllers were not sturdy so they're hard to find.===

Andrew's had good luck finding new and used gaming stuff, including N64 controllers, via Amazon Marketplace. We've only ever had one thing not work (a controller), and the vendor replaced it at no cost immediately after I notified him about it. It still surprises me how often we find never-been-opened games and accessories for older game systems there!

One thing we've noticed about the N64 is that some used game cartridges are *very* picky about how they're inserted into the system, so we try to find new N64 games whenever possible because of that.

Used GameCube games at GameStop can be quite inexpensive. If you buy one that doesn't work and you don't have success cleaning it with disc cleaner (we use the heck out of that stuff!), GameStop will swap it out or give you a refund. Same with any used game systems or handheld game systems you buy from them. (I don't work for them or get paid to endorse them; we're just happy, repeat customers!)

Glenda

Jenny Cyphers

***usually they want to use the computer too (we have only one at this time and
it due to other choices we cannot purchase another one for at least 6-9
months).***

You mean a new one right? If this were my situation, I'd find a used one, even
an older one, one still usable for pc games and internet for the other kids.
That can be very cheap, as cheap as $50 and maybe as much as $300, but still
much much cheaper than a new fancy one, and sometimes people actually give away
older computers.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

troubadour4me

I have some tips for gamers and their systems and games. What i do is clean the games with rubbing alcohol on a clothe. also,the psp,dsi screens and then use a dry clothe. I got a game working doing this. I then wax the system screens....car wax. This protects them. I wax watch and phone screens too.

--- In [email protected], "wtexans" <wtexans@...> wrote:
>
> ===Holly says 64s are good, but the controllers were not sturdy so they're hard to find.===
>
> Andrew's had good luck finding new and used gaming stuff, including N64 controllers, via Amazon Marketplace. We've only ever had one thing not work (a controller), and the vendor replaced it at no cost immediately after I notified him about it. It still surprises me how often we find never-been-opened games and accessories for older game systems there!
>
> One thing we've noticed about the N64 is that some used game cartridges are *very* picky about how they're inserted into the system, so we try to find new N64 games whenever possible because of that.
>
> Used GameCube games at GameStop can be quite inexpensive. If you buy one that doesn't work and you don't have success cleaning it with disc cleaner (we use the heck out of that stuff!), GameStop will swap it out or give you a refund. Same with any used game systems or handheld game systems you buy from them. (I don't work for them or get paid to endorse them; we're just happy, repeat customers!)
>
> Glenda
>

jennifer.neary

Boy does this discussion come at a good time for me. Summer 2010 is shaping up to be "The Summer that Pearl Slept." My recently turned 13 year old daughter always did stay up later and sleep later than me, but lately it's been way more so.

I have read about teen's need for sleep and how they are naturally inclined to this type of schedule, and I'm happy that because we unschool we can accommodate those natural rhythms. If Pearl was happy to be a night owl, I'd understand it and work with it. But Pearl really doesn't like it when she gets up at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon. And I don't like it either. I miss her! I feel we are missing out on so much, that there are so many cool things we could be doing if we had more time together during the day.

We've been struggling with each other over it all summer, and many, if not most, of our days have gotten off on the wrong foot because of it. One of the issues is that Pearl *wants* to get up earlier and go to bed earlier but says she just can't. She says she's trying but can't. I have responded that I don't see her taking any steps to change, such as going to bed earlier. And by earlier I mean 1:00 vs. 3:30.

She has asked for my help and I've given it. She has rejected many of my suggestions such as set an alarm clock and put it in a place where you have to get up to turn it off. She says that will just jar her awake and make her make her want to stay in bed. I see it as "that's the point; the alarm's purpose is to wake you up." But we got nowhere with that idea.

She has asked me to wake her in the morning, which I happily do. But then she doesn't get up. Or she asks for 10 more minutes, then 10 more then 10 more. I get annoyed by this; I don't want to stop what I'm doing to wake her up every 10 minutes. Especially when my experience is that she won't get up anyway.

She spent a week at camp, and like the original poster, I had hoped this would be the event that would get her off the nocturnal schedule. The two of us even discussed this. She had to get up at 7:00 a.m. each morning at camp, and she did. But after she got home she got right back into her late to bed, late to rise schedule. It was disappointing to say the least.

The other issue is that I fear that Pearl has become a person who does not keep her word. It is really important to me that my children be trustworthy. She has very few things she needs to get up for, and none on a regular basis. But sometimes there are things she needs to get out of bed for. Typically these are things she wants to do, or things the family has planned to do, like leave for a weekend trip. So we discuss it beforehand, often several times. I have a written schedule on the refrigerator that lists all the activities we're doing that week that will take one or more of us out of the house. We talk about what I can do to help her successfully get up with the least amount of stress. So there is no shortage of information about the fact that she needs to get up for something. And yet it's a huge struggle to get her up for that thing. And often she says she didn't know she had to get up, or that it was that important that she get up. It is baffling and frustrating.

For example: it was my son's birthday, and my husband was going to come home from work at 11:00 so Cas could open his presents. I talked to Pearl a lot about this. About how excited Cas was about his birthday, and that her Dad was going to take some time away from work to come home. The day before I asked her to please make sure her gift was wrapped and ready, and that she was awake and ready by 11:00. I offered to wrap the gift. Short version: she wasn't ready, her gift wasn't wrapped. It was a bad scene. I thought it was really selfish of her to put this kind of strain on Cas' birthday celebration.

After reading some of the posts on this topic yesterday, I thought about how I could react differently, how I could make things better. Pearl and I had planned to clean up her room together. She had been saying she was going to do it, but she never got to it, so I offered to help. It was super messy and kind of dangerous in there; there were sharp metal shavings on the floor from a project she'd been doing. Instead of waiting for her to get up so we could do it together, I just cleaned it up for her. She was very surprised and very grateful. And we had a good day.

I guess I'm mostly frustrated because I am completely willing to do whatever I can to help her, but at a certain point she has to do her part. And I'm worried that she is becoming (or has already become) someone who cannot be counted on to keep her word.

Jennie

Josh Moll

________________________________


She has asked for my help and I've given it. She has rejected many of my
suggestions such as set an alarm clock and put it in a place where you have to
get up to turn it off. She says that will just jar her awake and make her make
her want to stay in bed. I see it as "that's the point; the alarm's purpose is
to wake you up." But we got nowhere with that idea.

She has asked me to wake her in the morning, which I happily do. But then she
doesn't get up. Or she asks for 10 more minutes, then 10 more then 10 more. I
get annoyed by this; I don't want to stop what I'm doing to wake her up every 10
minutes. Especially when my experience is that she won't get up anyway.



****
Just a small tip in the midst of this question. When my son had this problem we
bought a lightclock. That helped very much. Gradually a light goes on, it takes
half an hour to get fully bright and it has nature sounds getting slowly louder,
in the same time. It made him wake up peacefully. If I went in around the fully
bright time, with a cup of tea and something to eat he would get out of bed
afterward and be present.
It was really difficult for him to wake, even if he wanted, because sleep was
really overpowering, and he wavered a lot between, "my body needs this, so I
comply"and "I want to be able to wake up when I want to wake up so I'll force
myself". The lightclock helped to wake when he really wanted it.
Josh






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Sandra Dodd

-=-
She has asked me to wake her in the morning, which I happily do. But
then she doesn't get up. Or she asks for 10 more minutes, then 10 more
then 10 more. I get annoyed by this; I don't want to stop what I'm
doing to wake her up every 10 minutes. Especially when my experience
is that she won't get up anyway. -=-

I would just say no. Nicely, but no.

She won't learn to sleep as long as she needs to and then wake up
through ANY amount of discussion or outside "assistance"/interference.

But another important aspect is for the mom NOT to make a deal about
it. If she wakes up a little and her first thought is guilt or fear,
that's not restful.

I would give her the alarm clock and tell her you're going to let her
sleep until she gets up.

If there's an event the next day, appointment, trip, guests, then the
day before I'd remind her, and at night again. Our standard phrase
here is "When do you need to get up? Count back from that." It
wasn't "You have to go to bed at midnight because you're waking up at
8:00." Sometimes six hours is enough. It's help to organize the
whole plan, not an enforcement of a plan.

-=-She spent a week at camp, and like the original poster, I had hoped
this would be the event that would get her off the nocturnal schedule.
The two of us even discussed this. She had to get up at 7:00 a.m. each
morning at camp, and she did. But after she got home she got right
back into her late to bed, late to rise schedule. It was disappointing
to say the least.-=-

Eeek! Let it go. Don't be disappointed. Don't have expectations or
ideals about when it's better to be awake. If she didn't need to
sleep she wouldn't.

On the other hand, the maternal disappointment could become a REASON
to sleep. If she is at peace asleep, and the object of disappointment
when she's awake, sleep wins out.

-=-So there is no shortage of information about the fact that she
needs to get up for something. And yet it's a huge struggle to get her
up for that thing. And often she says she didn't know she had to get
up, or that it was that important that she get up. It is baffling and
frustrating.-=-

We review the next day every night, even now that the kids are grown.
Or when someone's going out for the evening, it's not considered an
invasive question to ask "What are your plans tomorrow?"

Tuesday night Marty wanted to go and visit our friend Sadie, who just
got back from three months or so in Mongolia. But he needed to be up
for a GED test session the next morning, and BE somewhere at 8:00. He
told me he would be back at midnight.

At 10:45 I was going to go to be, and I thought maybe it would be
worth seeing whether Marty would like a reminder not to stay too
long. I partly worried that there would be drinking going on over
there. I called him, and asked him if he thought maybe coming home
earlier would be a good idea. He said "Mom, I'm upstairs in the
bathroom." He was already home. <g>

If I had bugged Marty and shamed him when he was 13, I don't think the
story above could have been told. If it was the thousandth time I had
suggested maybe he should go to bed, he might not even BE home at the
age of 21, telling me in advance where he was going and when he
planned to come home.

-=- The day before I asked her to please make sure her gift was
wrapped and ready, and that she was awake and ready by 11:00. I
offered to wrap the gift. Short version: she wasn't ready, her gift
wasn't wrapped. It was a bad scene. I thought it was really selfish of
her to put this kind of strain on Cas' birthday celebration.-=-

It was a bad scene because you had visions of how it should be. You
could have just sweetly told him "And later there's another gift
coming, from Pearl!"

You set up a situation in which she lost. There was no winning for
her, it seems.
If she wrapped the gift the day before, you won and she lost.

-=-I guess I'm mostly frustrated because I am completely willing to do
whatever I can to help her, but at a certain point she has to do her
part. And I'm worried that she is becoming (or has already become)
someone who cannot be counted on to keep her word.-=-

I think she's 13 and not yet legally of age to be expected to
negotiate contracts. Seriously. "To keep her word" is a heavy onus
for a little kid.

Perhaps you mean she's not reliably doing what you tell her to do, or
fulfilling your image of how she should be.

Deb Lewis wrote in another thread just this week:
"Your daughter has no responsibility to be the daughter you imagined.
You have
a responsibility to be the mother your real daughter needs. Stop
looking at
what you don't have. Look instead at what you do have with an attitude
of
acceptance and maturity."

If you relax, more than half the stress in the situation will be gone
immediately. She can't grow up in her own way if you keep holding the
template up and shaking your head in disgust that she doesn't fit your
expectations.

I bet you $25 things will be better if you relax for a year. Save
this, and if you relax and stop bugging her about it for a year and
you don't feel better about her, send it to me. (You don't owe me
anything if she gets better. It's a guarantee, not a wager. God
forbid you would bet against your own child.)

Sandra

maybe, possibly, look at these:
http://sandradodd.com/lazy
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child



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Deb Lewis

***One of the issues is that Pearl *wants* to get up earlier and go to bed earlier but says she just can't. She says she's trying but can't. I have responded that I don't see her taking any steps to change, such as going to bed earlier. And by earlier I mean 1:00 vs. 3:30.***

It might be that her "wanting" is to please you, so you won't be as frustrated with her. She might not really have an internalized desire to change her sleep pattern. Or maybe she does want to! But biology is a powerful force.

She didn't learn to crawl or walk all at once the first time you put her on the floor or stood her on her feet and held her hands. She didn't learn it the tenth time either. She learned it after being on the floor just the right amount of time for her to figure it out.

It's that way with understanding her sleeping and waking needs too. She won't learn to wake up for appointments and outings because you remind her ten times or a hundred times. She'll learn it after she better understands her own sleep needs. That might take years and it will surely take longer if she keeps feeling pressed to sleep and wake when you want her to.

I remember missing Dylan when he slept late. Use that time in the morning and early afternoon to get stuff done so that when she does wake up you can take off and do something together.

***The other issue is that I fear that Pearl has become a person who does not keep her word. It is really important to me that my children be trustworthy.***

It's way to early to decide she's not trustworthy! She couldn't keep her word when she was two either, but it didn't worry you then, I'll bet. It didn't worry you because you knew she was learning and growing everyday. She still is!

If you were sick and missed an appointment that wouldn't make you untrustworthy. She might not be physically ill but she is physically supercharging with new hormones.

Deb Lewis




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plaidpanties666

"jennifer.neary" <pcjen@...> wrote:
> If Pearl was happy to be a night owl, I'd understand it and work with it. But Pearl really doesn't like it when she gets up at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon. And I don't like it either. I miss her! I feel we are missing out on so much, that there are so many cool things we could be doing if we had more time together during the day.
****************

Sometimes you can push a body onto a different schedule, but not always. It could be better to step back from the expectation that this is something that can be changed easily - it will either be a massive effort that requires a lot of help, or it won't happen. That's something to talk about together. Can you both accept that this is going to be her schedule for awhile and embrace that?

>>> The other issue is that I fear that Pearl has become a person who does not keep her word.
***********

All the more reason to change your expectations. If she had a job that kept her up certain hours, or if she had, say, chronic fatigue, you wouldn't be heaping on her the expectation of changing her sleep schedule to do other things. Treat her with that same courtesy. Make plans around her schedule.

That may mean she doesn't get out as much for awhile. It may mean more evening parties, late afternoon times to get out of the house. It may mean you shift your own schedule so that she doesn't feel quite so isolated.

If she's really determined to get up earlier, do it in tiny increments rather than big leaps. Don't try to get her up Hours before her usual time, get her up Minutes before her usual time. Give her several days to a week to adjust before changing by another increment. That still means you'll need to shift your expectations, though. Going from a 1pm wake-up to 10am in ten minute increments will take months!

>>at a certain point she has to do her part

That's an expectation that can wreck a relationship. It's already made inroads into your realtionship with your dd. See her as doing as much as she can already. More than that, she needs help.

---Meredith

lylaw

I agree with everything sandra said and wanted to add a couple things, because I have a former 13 year old girl (now 15) who also couldn't seem to please me in many areas of her life, and about whom I used to have those same kinds of long term, catastrophic thoughts about "who she was becoming", etc.

that attitude CAN be changed (by the mom) and in so doing, the relationship and struggle can be healed. it's SO worth doing, because those kinds of messages about who your daughter "might be becoming" and the heavy handed disappointment in who she IS right now, is a prescription for a whole host of other issues, both personally for her, and in your relationship with her, as she grows into an adult.

for NOW though, if she really, truly wants help waking up early (and I'd suggest making that only on the days she needs to be up for something (with the word "need" defined really loosely) what about *connecting* with her in the helping process. instead of seeing it as an irritation or disappointment, go climb in bed with her, if she'd welcome that. nuzzle her and snuggle her and wake her up sweetly.

or if you don't have that kind of relationship right now, bring her tea, or breakfast in bed. or sit at the side of her bed and stroke her head and speak softly and sweetly to her. I bet 15 minutes of sweet connection will go a lot further in the wakeup process than coming back for 30 seconds every 15 minutes to remind her, in essence, that when she does get up you will be disappointed with her.

my daughter still needs help waking up, mostly, if she has something to get up for. but now, if I wasn't going to be home, she'd use an alarm clock, even though she prefers me to come wake her up gently. she will sometimes sleep til 3pm, and other times get up at 7, if she really needs to (for an airplane or a job). she also wouldn't commit to getting up for something if she didn't plan to actually do it, but that's because I wouldn't push her to do so.

not sure if 11am was the ONLY time your husband could get away for birthday stuff, but if you know your daughter's sleep needs and patterns, and that it's an area of stress already between you, you probably couldn't/shouldn't ask her to get up for something AND have a gift wrapped, at that time. you could have scheduled it for later in the day, for instance. set your child up for *success* not failure. I wrote a blog post about that actually, in case it would be helpful to anyone:

http://lylawolf.blogspot.com/2010/07/geting-outside-box-and-setting-up-for.html

warmly, lyla

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Sandra Dodd

-=-If she's really determined to get up earlier, do it in tiny
increments rather than big leaps. Don't try to get her up Hours before
her usual time, get her up Minutes before her usual time. Give her
several days to a week to adjust before changing by another increment.
That still means you'll need to shift your expectations, though. Going
from a 1pm wake-up to 10am in ten minute increments will take months!-=-

If in the absence of parental judgment she's determined to get up
earlier, let her use her alarm clock.

We found that if the reason to get up was real and big, the kid had no
problem at all getting up. My kids have worked ALL kinds of times,
and they get themselves up. They didn't need to practice or use
increments to get up when they need to.

Sandra

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