breathless
pranamama72
May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled" forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I suppose I just need a little perspective here.
Much thanks
I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled" forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I suppose I just need a little perspective here.
Much thanks
Sandra Dodd
I returned a post that had some mainstream, cheery, questionable
advice on this topic. I've saved a few phrases to point out how
"support" can be harmful.
-=-Try to just be positive and not feel guilty about this new change.
(or waste your time with what-ifs :) -=-
That can be said about the vilest of situations. What many on this
list would be called careful consideration of the effects on our
children's happiness has been termed "wasting time with what-ifs."
-=-Transitions sometime feel scary and awkward, but you can make this
work. Stay positive and happy :D
Good Luck!-=-
If the job is necessary, that doesn't mean leaving the children alone
is necessary. Instead of trying to divide parental responsibility
among four children near in age, it might be better to find someone
older to stay with them.
Not all transitions are necessary. Some SHOULD feel scary and
awkward, because they are.
Not all things can be made to work.
And then there's unschooling. Not a single post on this list should
pass without the comments being about how it will affect the success
of unschooling in that family.
Sandra
advice on this topic. I've saved a few phrases to point out how
"support" can be harmful.
-=-Try to just be positive and not feel guilty about this new change.
(or waste your time with what-ifs :) -=-
That can be said about the vilest of situations. What many on this
list would be called careful consideration of the effects on our
children's happiness has been termed "wasting time with what-ifs."
-=-Transitions sometime feel scary and awkward, but you can make this
work. Stay positive and happy :D
Good Luck!-=-
If the job is necessary, that doesn't mean leaving the children alone
is necessary. Instead of trying to divide parental responsibility
among four children near in age, it might be better to find someone
older to stay with them.
Not all transitions are necessary. Some SHOULD feel scary and
awkward, because they are.
Not all things can be made to work.
And then there's unschooling. Not a single post on this list should
pass without the comments being about how it will affect the success
of unschooling in that family.
Sandra
k
This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
info.
Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
contribute voluntarily.
That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
then do it consistently too!
Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
negatives too many already working against his version of why he
should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
do anyway... at least sometimes.
Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
~Katherine
that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
info.
Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
contribute voluntarily.
That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
then do it consistently too!
Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
negatives too many already working against his version of why he
should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
do anyway... at least sometimes.
Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
~Katherine
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM, pranamama72 <boulier72@...> wrote:
> May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
>
> I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled" forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
>
>
> I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I suppose I just need a little perspective here.
>
> Much thanks
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Claire
There were a few things I wanted to ask about in pranamama's post:
Firstly, why put the word unschooled in quotation marks?
You used this very loaded term "mutual responsibilities".
Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Kids - Ashlin, 5 & Eden, 3
Firstly, why put the word unschooled in quotation marks?
>>> I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled" forever...so it seems...lol >>It just made me wonder what you actually meant by the term 'unschooled'.
>>>I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging.>>>Why not just allow the precious time you do have with your kids to flow peacefully and joyfully? Forget your expectations of 'greatness' and instead be playful and engaged with what THEY are doing. Re-adjust your ideas about housework because you will drive yourself mad if you try to maintain things as they were when you were at home.
You used this very loaded term "mutual responsibilities".
>>>Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home.>>>I think as the unschooling parent it is your responsibility to provide a home, food and clothing, and lots of learning opportunities. It is also a part of caring for your family that you maintain the home in a reasonable state (I'm talking pretty relaxed standards here), and not put responsibility for that onto your kids. Their job is learning! If you want them to learn responsibility, then you be responsible. Show them that even though you have returned to work, your first priority is still their happy and peaceful learning.
Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Kids - Ashlin, 5 & Eden, 3
--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
> that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
> With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
> picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
> info.
>
> Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
> essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
> parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
>
> In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
> help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
> contribute voluntarily.
>
> That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
> nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
> deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
> others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
> stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
> and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
> then do it consistently too!
>
> Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
> doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
> nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
> negatives too many already working against his version of why he
> should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
> Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
> praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
> contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
> do anyway... at least sometimes.
>
> Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
> still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
> in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
> and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM, pranamama72 <boulier72@...> wrote:
> > May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
> >
> > I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled" forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
> >
> >
> > I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I suppose I just need a little perspective here.
> >
> > Much thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Jenny Cyphers
***I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at which he resists at
almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent
free ride he has...being the youngest.***
How do you know they will resent him? Why would there be resentment? Have
household things been a thing of resentment in your house? If he resists, then
clearly he doesn't want to do them. He WILL become resentful if you push and
persist. If you are asking for help and the answer is "yes" and the other kids
are happy to help, then I'd let it go. If nobody wants to pitch in, then find
another way.
***Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance
of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs
smoothly.***
Both of those phrases are really common and demeaning; "spoiling" and "pulling
your own weight". What does that mean to pull your own weight? If you go by
that literally, then I guess the 8 yr olds weight would be significantly less
than everyone else's. Or the lightest weight person should do less chores.
Children don't spoil. It's a phrase that's meant to apply to children who
react badly to their circumstances or their surroundings, but without taking
into consideration all the things causing the bad reaction. If you give your
child too much, then they'll just want more and more right? What's interesting
about that, is it is exactly the opposite. When you give and give to your
children, sweetly, they feel full, instead of lack.
The quickest way to cause a child to feel lack is by not being there. If both
parents need to work, then the time that you ARE together should be about the
kids and togetherness. If that time includes folding laundry and watching
movies or talking and washing dishes, then wonderful, but if that time is spent
with mom and dad enforcing chores, lack will be felt and resentment will build.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him for the apparent
free ride he has...being the youngest.***
How do you know they will resent him? Why would there be resentment? Have
household things been a thing of resentment in your house? If he resists, then
clearly he doesn't want to do them. He WILL become resentful if you push and
persist. If you are asking for help and the answer is "yes" and the other kids
are happy to help, then I'd let it go. If nobody wants to pitch in, then find
another way.
***Am I spoiling him if I just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance
of everyone pulling their own weight so we are all happy and the home runs
smoothly.***
Both of those phrases are really common and demeaning; "spoiling" and "pulling
your own weight". What does that mean to pull your own weight? If you go by
that literally, then I guess the 8 yr olds weight would be significantly less
than everyone else's. Or the lightest weight person should do less chores.
Children don't spoil. It's a phrase that's meant to apply to children who
react badly to their circumstances or their surroundings, but without taking
into consideration all the things causing the bad reaction. If you give your
child too much, then they'll just want more and more right? What's interesting
about that, is it is exactly the opposite. When you give and give to your
children, sweetly, they feel full, instead of lack.
The quickest way to cause a child to feel lack is by not being there. If both
parents need to work, then the time that you ARE together should be about the
kids and togetherness. If that time includes folding laundry and watching
movies or talking and washing dishes, then wonderful, but if that time is spent
with mom and dad enforcing chores, lack will be felt and resentment will build.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 20, 2010, at 10:57 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
to be first and foremost of a parent's attention, connection and
appreciation for who the child is. I immediately pictured "spoiled
rich kids" who are given things and opportunities (and goals to reach
and roles to fill) but not their parent's friendship and partnership.
Kat brought home stories from the kids she met in high school art and
math classes who resented being given the old BMW while Dad got the
new one. Those kids don't have parents snuggling with them watching
Spongebob and House, absorbing enough of the kids' favorite video
games (and playing some!) to know the importance of beating the Boss
that was plaguing them, supportively making a stop at a second
restaurant so no one has to eat food they don't like.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When you give and give to yourThough Jenny goes onto say it in a way, to feel full, the giving needs
> children, sweetly, they feel full, instead of lack.
to be first and foremost of a parent's attention, connection and
appreciation for who the child is. I immediately pictured "spoiled
rich kids" who are given things and opportunities (and goals to reach
and roles to fill) but not their parent's friendship and partnership.
Kat brought home stories from the kids she met in high school art and
math classes who resented being given the old BMW while Dad got the
new one. Those kids don't have parents snuggling with them watching
Spongebob and House, absorbing enough of the kids' favorite video
games (and playing some!) to know the importance of beating the Boss
that was plaguing them, supportively making a stop at a second
restaurant so no one has to eat food they don't like.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
R Boulier
I put the word unschooling in quotes just because I don't like labeling what it
is we do. That is it, simply put. I resist defining myself or our living style.
Thank you for your these words:
"Why not just allow the precious time you do have with your kids to flow
peacefully and joyfully? Forget your expectations of 'greatness' and instead be
playful and engaged with what THEY are doing. Re-adjust your ideas about
housework because you will drive yourself mad if you try to maintain things as
they were when you were at home."
I have been slack in playing/engaging simply because i am so tired &
discouraged. This I will be more attentive to. The house is an issue I do need
to relax on, I know. The problem lies with my sence of uneasiness with clutter.
Guess I need to get over it huh?
"I think as the unschooling parent it is your responsibility to provide a home,
food and clothing, and lots of learning opportunities. It is also a part of
caring for your family that you maintain the home in a reasonable state (I'm
talking pretty relaxed standards here), and not put responsibility for that onto
your kids. Their job is learning! "
Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole. I feel I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require them
to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something that we wait
upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy.
Thank you
________________________________
From: Claire <claire.horsley08@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 8:19:12 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: breathless
There were a few things I wanted to ask about in pranamama's post:
Firstly, why put the word unschooled in quotation marks?
peacefully and joyfully? Forget your expectations of 'greatness' and instead be
playful and engaged with what THEY are doing. Re-adjust your ideas about
housework because you will drive yourself mad if you try to maintain things as
they were when you were at home.
You used this very loaded term "mutual responsibilities".
food and clothing, and lots of learning opportunities. It is also a part of
caring for your family that you maintain the home in a reasonable state (I'm
talking pretty relaxed standards here), and not put responsibility for that onto
your kids. Their job is learning! If you want them to learn responsibility, then
you be responsible. Show them that even though you have returned to work, your
first priority is still their happy and peaceful learning.
Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Kids - Ashlin, 5 & Eden, 3
is we do. That is it, simply put. I resist defining myself or our living style.
Thank you for your these words:
"Why not just allow the precious time you do have with your kids to flow
peacefully and joyfully? Forget your expectations of 'greatness' and instead be
playful and engaged with what THEY are doing. Re-adjust your ideas about
housework because you will drive yourself mad if you try to maintain things as
they were when you were at home."
I have been slack in playing/engaging simply because i am so tired &
discouraged. This I will be more attentive to. The house is an issue I do need
to relax on, I know. The problem lies with my sence of uneasiness with clutter.
Guess I need to get over it huh?
"I think as the unschooling parent it is your responsibility to provide a home,
food and clothing, and lots of learning opportunities. It is also a part of
caring for your family that you maintain the home in a reasonable state (I'm
talking pretty relaxed standards here), and not put responsibility for that onto
your kids. Their job is learning! "
Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole. I feel I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require them
to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something that we wait
upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy.
Thank you
________________________________
From: Claire <claire.horsley08@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 8:19:12 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: breathless
There were a few things I wanted to ask about in pranamama's post:
Firstly, why put the word unschooled in quotation marks?
>>> I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled"It just made me wonder what you actually meant by the term 'unschooled'.
>>>forever...so it seems...lol >>
>>>I feel my time with them is so limited now that I want the few hours I do haveWhy not just allow the precious time you do have with your kids to flow
>>>to be full of greatness, but more times than not it is frustruating and
>>>discouraging.>>>
peacefully and joyfully? Forget your expectations of 'greatness' and instead be
playful and engaged with what THEY are doing. Re-adjust your ideas about
housework because you will drive yourself mad if you try to maintain things as
they were when you were at home.
You used this very loaded term "mutual responsibilities".
>>>Some of my kids (mostly my youngest and only son) resist any attempts atI think as the unschooling parent it is your responsibility to provide a home,
>>>structure in regards to mutual responsiblity within the home.>>>
food and clothing, and lots of learning opportunities. It is also a part of
caring for your family that you maintain the home in a reasonable state (I'm
talking pretty relaxed standards here), and not put responsibility for that onto
your kids. Their job is learning! If you want them to learn responsibility, then
you be responsible. Show them that even though you have returned to work, your
first priority is still their happy and peaceful learning.
Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Kids - Ashlin, 5 & Eden, 3
--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
> that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
> With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
> picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
> info.
>
> Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
> essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
> parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
>
> In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
> help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
> contribute voluntarily.
>
> That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
> nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
> deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
> others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
> stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
> and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
> then do it consistently too!
>
> Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
> doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
> nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
> negatives too many already working against his version of why he
> should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
> Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
> praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
> contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
> do anyway... at least sometimes.
>
> Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
> still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
> in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
> and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM, pranamama72 <boulier72@...> wrote:
> > May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in
>need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and
>correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
> >
> > I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled"
>forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of
>doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay
>off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
> >
> >
> > I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring
>the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here
>lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in
>turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is
>so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but
>more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly
>my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual
>responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older
>children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be
>heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of
>how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at
>which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him
>for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I
>just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their
>own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is
>that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are
>also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live
>together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to
>show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as
>much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I
>am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for
>the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for
>myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally
>healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always
>plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's
>experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I
>suppose I just need a little perspective here.
> >
> > Much thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
R Boulier
Unfortunately, the job is absolutely necessary & alternative care is not
available leaving my husband & i to do it all. My older children seem to be
fairing well with the time "in charge". It's just me feeling horrible about it.
I wish there another option. As for the success of our family...all I can do is
work at it.
Thank you
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 3:46:17 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] breathless
I returned a post that had some mainstream, cheery, questionable
advice on this topic. I've saved a few phrases to point out how
"support" can be harmful.
-=-Try to just be positive and not feel guilty about this new change.
(or waste your time with what-ifs :) -=-
That can be said about the vilest of situations. What many on this
list would be called careful consideration of the effects on our
children's happiness has been termed "wasting time with what-ifs."
-=-Transitions sometime feel scary and awkward, but you can make this
work. Stay positive and happy :D
Good Luck!-=-
If the job is necessary, that doesn't mean leaving the children alone
is necessary. Instead of trying to divide parental responsibility
among four children near in age, it might be better to find someone
older to stay with them.
Not all transitions are necessary. Some SHOULD feel scary and
awkward, because they are.
Not all things can be made to work.
And then there's unschooling. Not a single post on this list should
pass without the comments being about how it will affect the success
of unschooling in that family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
available leaving my husband & i to do it all. My older children seem to be
fairing well with the time "in charge". It's just me feeling horrible about it.
I wish there another option. As for the success of our family...all I can do is
work at it.
Thank you
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 3:46:17 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] breathless
I returned a post that had some mainstream, cheery, questionable
advice on this topic. I've saved a few phrases to point out how
"support" can be harmful.
-=-Try to just be positive and not feel guilty about this new change.
(or waste your time with what-ifs :) -=-
That can be said about the vilest of situations. What many on this
list would be called careful consideration of the effects on our
children's happiness has been termed "wasting time with what-ifs."
-=-Transitions sometime feel scary and awkward, but you can make this
work. Stay positive and happy :D
Good Luck!-=-
If the job is necessary, that doesn't mean leaving the children alone
is necessary. Instead of trying to divide parental responsibility
among four children near in age, it might be better to find someone
older to stay with them.
Not all transitions are necessary. Some SHOULD feel scary and
awkward, because they are.
Not all things can be made to work.
And then there's unschooling. Not a single post on this list should
pass without the comments being about how it will affect the success
of unschooling in that family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
R Boulier
Maybe this will help frame the picture for you. I am home with the kids all
morning until after lunch @1 when I leave for work. My husband gets home in time
to make dinner and I get home @10p. My oldest 3 are usually still awake so I am
able to say goodnite. I work 3 days during the week and both wkend days while my
dh is home on wkends so it really is only 3 days they are on there own. We are
just doing what we have to, to survive, right now. It tortures me that although
we are both working FT we still are living paychk to paychk. For a long time the
kids didn't know the difference but as they are older now they can see that we
fall so short of their friends families living style. That is hard for me. They
want things and to do things that I can't say yes to.
I spent some time last night explaining to my son what it is exactly that I do
all day at work...thanks to this post :) and I think it might have clarified
some things for him....for me I totally enjoyed the snuggle time!
Thank you, Katherine
~Pranamama
________________________________
From: k <katherand@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:37:47 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] breathless
This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
info.
Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
contribute voluntarily.
That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
then do it consistently too!
Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
negatives too many already working against his version of why he
should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
do anyway... at least sometimes.
Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
~Katherine
morning until after lunch @1 when I leave for work. My husband gets home in time
to make dinner and I get home @10p. My oldest 3 are usually still awake so I am
able to say goodnite. I work 3 days during the week and both wkend days while my
dh is home on wkends so it really is only 3 days they are on there own. We are
just doing what we have to, to survive, right now. It tortures me that although
we are both working FT we still are living paychk to paychk. For a long time the
kids didn't know the difference but as they are older now they can see that we
fall so short of their friends families living style. That is hard for me. They
want things and to do things that I can't say yes to.
I spent some time last night explaining to my son what it is exactly that I do
all day at work...thanks to this post :) and I think it might have clarified
some things for him....for me I totally enjoyed the snuggle time!
Thank you, Katherine
~Pranamama
________________________________
From: k <katherand@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:37:47 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] breathless
This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
info.
Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
contribute voluntarily.
That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
then do it consistently too!
Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
negatives too many already working against his version of why he
should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
do anyway... at least sometimes.
Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
~Katherine
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM, pranamama72 <boulier72@...> wrote:
> May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in
>need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and
>correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
>
> I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled"
>forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of
>doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay
>off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
>
>
> I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring
>the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here
>lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in
>turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is
>so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but
>more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly
>my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual
>responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older
>children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be
>heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of
>how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at
>which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him
>for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I
>just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their
>own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is
>that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are
>also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live
>together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to
>show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as
>much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I
>am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for
>the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for
>myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally
>healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always
>plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's
>experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I
>suppose I just need a little perspective here.
>
> Much thanks
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I put the word unschooling in quotes just because I don't like
labeling what it
is we do. That is it, simply put. I resist defining myself or our
living style.-=-
That sounds kind of insulting of those who DO call what they do
unschooling, particularly as you've come to a serious unschooling list
to ask your questions.
If you called it "unschooling" because you're not "really"
unschooling, that's also a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
labeling what it
is we do. That is it, simply put. I resist defining myself or our
living style.-=-
That sounds kind of insulting of those who DO call what they do
unschooling, particularly as you've come to a serious unschooling list
to ask your questions.
If you called it "unschooling" because you're not "really"
unschooling, that's also a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole. I feel
I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will
require them
to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something
that we wait
upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite
simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus
the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy. -=-
The advice you'll get on this list will be what people have found to
make unschooling and longterm relationships between parents and
children work. It's just advice. You can take it or leave it.
-=-Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole.-=-
You're talking about your teaching them to act as part of the whole,
not them learning naturally.
-=-I feel I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
the family. -=-
Please read as much here as you can without taking time away from
being with your children:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Perhaps the time they're alone should be time spent reading, playing
games, doing art, playing online. It sounds from your posts that
they're expected to do housework during that time. As unschooling
goes, that is "getting cold" rather than "getting warm."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will
require them
to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something
that we wait
upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite
simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus
the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy. -=-
The advice you'll get on this list will be what people have found to
make unschooling and longterm relationships between parents and
children work. It's just advice. You can take it or leave it.
-=-Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole.-=-
You're talking about your teaching them to act as part of the whole,
not them learning naturally.
-=-I feel I would do my
children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
the family. -=-
Please read as much here as you can without taking time away from
being with your children:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Perhaps the time they're alone should be time spent reading, playing
games, doing art, playing online. It sounds from your posts that
they're expected to do housework during that time. As unschooling
goes, that is "getting cold" rather than "getting warm."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Yes I'm glad you had some snuggle time with that boy of yours. Now do
that as much as you can. they grow so fast and then the chance to
snuggle will pass although if you're fortunate to make it your focus,
the relationship can be such that there remains lots of closeness.
that we wait upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are,
it was quite simple (in retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is
quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer number of people within the home
makes it crazy.<<<
Here's something on Sandra's website that wasn't written in response
to your question above but applies to an angle of the question that
seems to be a focus but -----just----- misses. -How a parent can
partner with children to provide what they need for learning what they
want to know about and to help them in forming a set of values about
cleaning that is their own yet is very likely to borrow much from the
parent:
from http://sandradodd.com/chores/relationship
***how do you get your kids to clean***
How could your husband get you to scrub the garage floor?
He could yell or threaten or bribe or beg. But what kind of
relationship would that create between you?
What if your child had a tower of collectible soda cans that was
always falling over. What if he decided that since you're part of the
family that restacking them once a week was part of your job. How
could he get you to do that? And how could he get you to stack them in
the "proper" (e.g. his) order? And what if you didn't do it to his
standards and didn't do as good a job as he knew you were capable of?
Now what if he said once a week "Mom, would you mind keeping me
company while I stack these cans? Maybe we could listen to a book on
tape together. Or you could tell me about the project your working
on." Sometimes you might not be able to join him because you were in
the middle of something. Sometimes you might help him stack just
because it feels good to help him out. And if he was truly thankful in
a way that let you know that he knew there were more interesting
things you could be doing, you'd be more likely to help him. On the
other hand if he criticized your stacking, or came to expect you to
help him you'd be less likely to help and might even be less likely to
spend time with him.
So, how can you get your kids to clean?
You could make them. And take withdrawals from your relationship
account with them to pay for it. They might be angry with you but
you'd have a clean house.
Or, if your relationship with them is important, you can shift your
thinking and see the house and all the tasks as belonging to you. And
then invite them to help. And acknowledge that you appreciate their
help -- no matter how small -- knowing that they could be playing a
video game or watching a favorite show instead and they've chosen to
be with you.
****************
The whole page is a very good read on chores too as are the other
links in this thread. If you don't have time to read anything else, I
especially like the words "acknowledge that you appreciate their help
-- no matter how small -- know they could be playing ... and they've
chosen to be with you." That's gold in the relationship bank!
~Katherine
that as much as you can. they grow so fast and then the chance to
snuggle will pass although if you're fortunate to make it your focus,
the relationship can be such that there remains lots of closeness.
>>>Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole. I feel I would do my children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family. As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require themto help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something
that we wait upon also? When my children were younger, as yours are,
it was quite simple (in retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is
quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer number of people within the home
makes it crazy.<<<
Here's something on Sandra's website that wasn't written in response
to your question above but applies to an angle of the question that
seems to be a focus but -----just----- misses. -How a parent can
partner with children to provide what they need for learning what they
want to know about and to help them in forming a set of values about
cleaning that is their own yet is very likely to borrow much from the
parent:
from http://sandradodd.com/chores/relationship
***how do you get your kids to clean***
How could your husband get you to scrub the garage floor?
He could yell or threaten or bribe or beg. But what kind of
relationship would that create between you?
What if your child had a tower of collectible soda cans that was
always falling over. What if he decided that since you're part of the
family that restacking them once a week was part of your job. How
could he get you to do that? And how could he get you to stack them in
the "proper" (e.g. his) order? And what if you didn't do it to his
standards and didn't do as good a job as he knew you were capable of?
Now what if he said once a week "Mom, would you mind keeping me
company while I stack these cans? Maybe we could listen to a book on
tape together. Or you could tell me about the project your working
on." Sometimes you might not be able to join him because you were in
the middle of something. Sometimes you might help him stack just
because it feels good to help him out. And if he was truly thankful in
a way that let you know that he knew there were more interesting
things you could be doing, you'd be more likely to help him. On the
other hand if he criticized your stacking, or came to expect you to
help him you'd be less likely to help and might even be less likely to
spend time with him.
So, how can you get your kids to clean?
You could make them. And take withdrawals from your relationship
account with them to pay for it. They might be angry with you but
you'd have a clean house.
Or, if your relationship with them is important, you can shift your
thinking and see the house and all the tasks as belonging to you. And
then invite them to help. And acknowledge that you appreciate their
help -- no matter how small -- knowing that they could be playing a
video game or watching a favorite show instead and they've chosen to
be with you.
****************
The whole page is a very good read on chores too as are the other
links in this thread. If you don't have time to read anything else, I
especially like the words "acknowledge that you appreciate their help
-- no matter how small -- know they could be playing ... and they've
chosen to be with you." That's gold in the relationship bank!
~Katherine
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:05 AM, R Boulier <boulier72@...> wrote:
> Maybe this will help frame the picture for you. I am home with the kids all
> morning until after lunch @1 when I leave for work. My husband gets home in time
> to make dinner and I get home @10p. My oldest 3 are usually still awake so I am
> able to say goodnite. I work 3 days during the week and both wkend days while my
> dh is home on wkends so it really is only 3 days they are on there own. We are
> just doing what we have to, to survive, right now. It tortures me that although
> we are both working FT we still are living paychk to paychk. For a long time the
> kids didn't know the difference but as they are older now they can see that we
> fall so short of their friends families living style. That is hard for me. They
> want things and to do things that I can't say yes to.
>
> I spent some time last night explaining to my son what it is exactly that I do
> all day at work...thanks to this post :) and I think it might have clarified
> some things for him....for me I totally enjoyed the snuggle time!
>
> Thank you, Katherine
>
> ~Pranamama
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: k <katherand@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:37:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] breathless
>
>
> This post is general enough that the clearest picture I'm getting is
> that the mom is going to work, and the kids have responsibilities.
> With more specific info, it might be possible to get a clearer
> picture? And to talk more about unschooling in light of a bit more
> info.
>
> Maybe it's also possible to find help cleaning/keeping up with
> essentials either through trades or something like that. Or do like my
> parents did and wait til the weekend to deal with routine house stuff.
>
> In the meantime couldn't you offer the youngest the opportunity to
> help without coercion? I bet he wants to but not if he can't
> contribute voluntarily.
>
> That's human nature. It's possible to work with or against human
> nature. As soon as things are requirements, people want out of the
> deal if they can't see the benefit to themselves or really even to
> others. I have often felt that people want stuff just to see you do
> stuff (that's a school conditioned jump-through-hoops tape of my own)
> and to test your commitment to them by getting you to jump ... and
> then do it consistently too!
>
> Especially for a young child who has little notion of what you're
> doing when you're at work all day, it can seem that you're doing
> nothing and are just not home. So from the child's viewpoint, that's 2
> negatives too many already working against his version of why he
> should help. Explaining it to him may just sound like excuses.
> Offering opportunities to help and accepting "no" and thanking (not
> praising) him will most likely convince the child that his
> contribution is even a fun part of doing what he most likely wants to
> do anyway... at least sometimes.
>
> Eight is still such a baby in my eyes. Probably such a young child
> still just wants his mommy. Hopefully he's getting loads of affection
> in this time of transition (and if it were me, that would go both ways
> and help me to express the love I feel and to transition too).
>
> ~Katherine
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM, pranamama72 <boulier72@...> wrote:
>> May I begin by a brief intro. and greeting. I am glad to be here as I am in
>>need of some support, wisdom, encouragement and even perhaps some guidance and
>>correction, if needed...and it probably is :p
>>
>> I am mom to 4 very neat people...ages 14, 12, 9 & 8 and we have "unschooled"
>>forever...so it seems...lol It is my deep belief, despite my occasional bouts of
>>doubt...that having my kids home and out of the public education system will pay
>>off to be the most empowering thing I can do for them. With that said...
>>
>>
>> I have had to go back to work full time after years of being home requiring
>>the kids to be alone for a few hours a day until their dad gets home and here
>>lies the start of my query today. I am utterly exhausted, stressed out and in
>>turn the kids are experiencing my negative energy. I feel my time with them is
>>so limited now that I want the few hours I do have to be full of greatness, but
>>more times than not it is frustruating and discouraging. Some of my kids (mostly
>>my youngest and only son) resist any attempts at structure in regards to mutual
>>responsiblity within the home. I hate that I feel at times that the older
>>children simply help because they see my stress and feel the guilt I may be
>>heaping upon them. this is definately not what i want to create yet am unsure of
>>how to break this. I try to involve my son with some "respopnsibilities", at
>>which he resists at almost every turn, because I feel the girls will resent him
>>for the apparent free ride he has...being the youngest. Am I spoiling him if I
>>just leave him alone? I try to explain the importance of everyone pulling their
>>own weight so we are all happy and the home runs smoothly. The difficult part is
>>that as much as I want to allow them to have their own say and freedom we are
>>also a large family and have to function as a whole also. How do we live
>>together as a group while respecting individuality? What signs do I look for to
>>show me if I have already done some damage? I try as i might to say yes to as
>>much as humanly and financially possible...which is very limited, but I feel I
>>am limiting them in turn. I just have such difficulty with feelings of guilt for
>>the life we have created for them and my own limitaions. I am concerned for
>>myself (my peace) and my ability to provide a loving, supportive, emotionally
>>healthy and educationally stimulating environment for them. What if....is always
>>plauging me. I suppose maybe I just need reassurance. I am aware that everyone's
>>experiences are different and that not one person can relate to me perfectly. I
>>suppose I just need a little perspective here.
>>
>> Much thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
Jenny Cyphers
***Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole.***
Children do grow up learning to act as part of a whole when they have a great
team leader. That doesn't mean you need to enforce "acting as part of a whole",
it means, as the team leader, inspire your team and do whatever it is that they
don't do.
***I feel I would do my children a disservice not to require some sort of
responsibility to the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require
them to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something that we
wait upon also?***
It IS a world in which anybody can or not help anyone else. We all get a choice
in that. I do NOT have to help any other person in the whole wide world. I
could simply focus on my own needs only. I can make that choice. So can each
and every person that exists on the planet. I choose to help others in large
and small ways, my kids first. By so doing, my kids learn how to help others.
They get that choice too.
About a month ago or so, my oldest, 16 got into an argument with the father of
her boyfriend. He was being an ass to his son while Chamille was there
visiting, she spoke up on his behalf. He dismissed her by saying that she
doesn't know what she's talking about because she doesn't have any
responsibilities because she doesn't go to school and we don't "discipline" our
children or have "rules". That was the first time anyone had ever told her
something like that and she absolutely disagreed with that. She told him that
she DOES have responsibilities, that everyone does. That argument didn't end
well. He insisted she leave because he decided at that moment to ground his son
for the evening. He told her that he'd give her a ride home and she told him
that she'd rather take the bus and walked out the door.
In that moment, she was being very responsible for her own sanity and health.
She clearly saw that he wasn't being a very responsible host or a very
responsible dad. That being an ass doesn't get to qualify as being responsible,
no matter how one might phrase it. She came home and we talked about all the
ways in which a person can and is responsible. She's very responsible, she gets
home on time, she always lets us know where she is, she doesn't lie or steal,
she saves money when she can, she doesn't smoke or drink or do drugs. She keeps
her room as tidy as possible, she'll watch her little sister almost any time we
ask, she's sweet to her too, she makes people food when they are hungry and
attends to her guests when they are here. That was just scratching the surface
on how a person can be responsible. Being responsible does NOT mean doing
household work or doing what the parents say to do. It can mean those things,
but it doesn't equal those things. If you look for responsibility by seeing it
in your children doing what they are asked to do, when you ask them to, you are
only going to get compliance or resistance or a combination of both. Doing the
dishes does not make a person responsible.
***When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy. ***
I find that hard to believe actually. Little kids come with LOTS of clean up,
diapers, barf, mud, food, spills, stains, toys everywhere, etc. Older kids are
much better at containing these things. They don't make as many spills, nor do
they poop in diapers, and generally don't track mud throughout the house or
leave spills in the middle of the kitchen floor.
What you are seeing is through a lens of resentment. Be more objective about
it. Your kids are bigger and louder and take up more space. Their stuff is
bigger and louder and takes up more space. Less space makes things look less
tidy. More kids equals more stuff, more activity, more toys out and about. You
can choose to see it as a big load of mess and lack of help around the house, or
you could see all the business of life surrounding you in a big active house of
people, doing their things and learning and living. When it comes right down to
it, what are the very basics of keeping up with house cleaning? Kitchen work,
laundry, floors, spaces to sit, spaces to eat, and spaces to do projects,
bathroom, and yard work. That about sums it up, taking into account individual
preferences. If you break it down into those things, you'll see the everyday
stuff and the once a week stuff. The everyday stuff might be kitchen stuff, and
spaces to eat and spaces to sit. Everything else is once a week or less stuff.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Children do grow up learning to act as part of a whole when they have a great
team leader. That doesn't mean you need to enforce "acting as part of a whole",
it means, as the team leader, inspire your team and do whatever it is that they
don't do.
***I feel I would do my children a disservice not to require some sort of
responsibility to the family.
As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require
them to help others whether they feel like it or not. Is this something that we
wait upon also?***
It IS a world in which anybody can or not help anyone else. We all get a choice
in that. I do NOT have to help any other person in the whole wide world. I
could simply focus on my own needs only. I can make that choice. So can each
and every person that exists on the planet. I choose to help others in large
and small ways, my kids first. By so doing, my kids learn how to help others.
They get that choice too.
About a month ago or so, my oldest, 16 got into an argument with the father of
her boyfriend. He was being an ass to his son while Chamille was there
visiting, she spoke up on his behalf. He dismissed her by saying that she
doesn't know what she's talking about because she doesn't have any
responsibilities because she doesn't go to school and we don't "discipline" our
children or have "rules". That was the first time anyone had ever told her
something like that and she absolutely disagreed with that. She told him that
she DOES have responsibilities, that everyone does. That argument didn't end
well. He insisted she leave because he decided at that moment to ground his son
for the evening. He told her that he'd give her a ride home and she told him
that she'd rather take the bus and walked out the door.
In that moment, she was being very responsible for her own sanity and health.
She clearly saw that he wasn't being a very responsible host or a very
responsible dad. That being an ass doesn't get to qualify as being responsible,
no matter how one might phrase it. She came home and we talked about all the
ways in which a person can and is responsible. She's very responsible, she gets
home on time, she always lets us know where she is, she doesn't lie or steal,
she saves money when she can, she doesn't smoke or drink or do drugs. She keeps
her room as tidy as possible, she'll watch her little sister almost any time we
ask, she's sweet to her too, she makes people food when they are hungry and
attends to her guests when they are here. That was just scratching the surface
on how a person can be responsible. Being responsible does NOT mean doing
household work or doing what the parents say to do. It can mean those things,
but it doesn't equal those things. If you look for responsibility by seeing it
in your children doing what they are asked to do, when you ask them to, you are
only going to get compliance or resistance or a combination of both. Doing the
dishes does not make a person responsible.
***When my children were younger, as yours are, it was quite simple (in
retrospect) to carry the load, but now it is quite overwhelming. Plus the sheer
number of people within the home makes it crazy. ***
I find that hard to believe actually. Little kids come with LOTS of clean up,
diapers, barf, mud, food, spills, stains, toys everywhere, etc. Older kids are
much better at containing these things. They don't make as many spills, nor do
they poop in diapers, and generally don't track mud throughout the house or
leave spills in the middle of the kitchen floor.
What you are seeing is through a lens of resentment. Be more objective about
it. Your kids are bigger and louder and take up more space. Their stuff is
bigger and louder and takes up more space. Less space makes things look less
tidy. More kids equals more stuff, more activity, more toys out and about. You
can choose to see it as a big load of mess and lack of help around the house, or
you could see all the business of life surrounding you in a big active house of
people, doing their things and learning and living. When it comes right down to
it, what are the very basics of keeping up with house cleaning? Kitchen work,
laundry, floors, spaces to sit, spaces to eat, and spaces to do projects,
bathroom, and yard work. That about sums it up, taking into account individual
preferences. If you break it down into those things, you'll see the everyday
stuff and the once a week stuff. The everyday stuff might be kitchen stuff, and
spaces to eat and spaces to sit. Everything else is once a week or less stuff.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
R Boulier <boulier72@...> wrote:
If someone dropped a responsibility on your shoulders that you didn't want, would you feel they'd given you a gift? Probably not. Probably you'd resent it to some extent. That's a normal human reaction and children aren't exempt from it. "Taking responsibility" or behaving responsibly isn't something children need to be taught to do. Its natural for people to be good to those they love, to do things for them, to take on some responsibilites out of empathy and personal desire. Requiring responsbilities gets in the way of that.
If you don't see responsibility as something you choose, if you see it as a burden you're stuck with, then it will help your kids if you can find a way to shift your perspective. It will help them see responsibility as something *they* get to choose - Get to choose! That's a marvelous gift, that of being able to choose to be thoughtful and helpful and gracious. You would do them a greater service to give them that gift, rather than a stack of burdens.
If its more important that they be parts of a whole than people who are motivated by their own love of learning, put them in school! Schools are designed on an assembly line model - your kids will have ample opportunity to be parts of a great big whole there.
---Meredith
>I feel I would do my*****************
> children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family.
If someone dropped a responsibility on your shoulders that you didn't want, would you feel they'd given you a gift? Probably not. Probably you'd resent it to some extent. That's a normal human reaction and children aren't exempt from it. "Taking responsibility" or behaving responsibly isn't something children need to be taught to do. Its natural for people to be good to those they love, to do things for them, to take on some responsibilites out of empathy and personal desire. Requiring responsbilities gets in the way of that.
> As they grow won't they see that they live in a world in which will require themNope, not a bit of it. No-one in the world is required to help anyone else - and some people aren't terribly helpful or responsible, even though they were "taught" to be.
> to help others whether they feel like it or not.
If you don't see responsibility as something you choose, if you see it as a burden you're stuck with, then it will help your kids if you can find a way to shift your perspective. It will help them see responsibility as something *they* get to choose - Get to choose! That's a marvelous gift, that of being able to choose to be thoughtful and helpful and gracious. You would do them a greater service to give them that gift, rather than a stack of burdens.
> Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole.Do you think of yourself as simply a part of a whole, rather than yourself with needs and wishes and dreams? I'm guessing not, but you're asking your children to be parts - cogs in the family machine. That's hard. They don't want to be parts, they want to be human beings, and learning is very important to human beings, its one of the things that drives and motivates people.
If its more important that they be parts of a whole than people who are motivated by their own love of learning, put them in school! Schools are designed on an assembly line model - your kids will have ample opportunity to be parts of a great big whole there.
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
> >I feel I would do myMy oldest daughter is getting married in 2 1/2 weeks. We JUST found out
> > children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
> the family.
about some relatives coming who are expecting to stay with us. We have
an extra room, but it has been used as a storage room for a couple of
years - piled very high with boxes and all kinds of stuff. We also have
a loft/attic kind of place that is great for storage, but it was a big
mess and very full.
On Monday, Rosie asked me how we were going to get that back room
cleaned up for the relatives. I said I thought I'd have to get a storage
unit and move all the boxes there. She said she'd help me on Wednesday.
This morning, she said, "I think if Roxana and I go up in the loft, we
can rearrange stuff and also there is a lot of stuff in there we could
donate to Goodwill. So they did - they spent several hours up there and
the back of my car is filled with goodwill donations. THEN, in the
afternoon, she asked her boyfriend to come over and help move all the
boxes from the extra room into the loft. That took another hour or so
and was very hard work - most of the boxes are full of books. Rosie is
19, Rox is 22, and Daniel (the boyfriend) is 24.
Just when they finished moving the boxes to the loft, Cyrus came home
from work. We all sat around on the patio for a bit and they asked Cyrus
and me if we wanted to go to a movie with them. We declined for various
reasons and they were leaving to go to the movie and Rosie said, "We'll
be back right after the movie - not going out to eat or anything tonight
because we have a lot to do tomorrow and don't want to be out too late."
ALL this from kids who never had an assigned chore. Today was kind of
amazing even to me - they worked most of the day completely and totally
of their own volition. They don't always do that. There are times they
sit and watch tv for hours while I work around the house and I sometimes
wonder why they don't get up and help. I sometimes have to talk myself
out of being resentful about it and it helps to remind myself that they
do not even know I'm resenting it - they don't have the same issues
about housework that I have.
What works best around here seems to be to ask very directly for very
specific kinds of help - "Can you take those dishes to the kitchen and
rinshe them off, when you get a chance?" "Do you have time to unload
the dishwasher this morning?" I made it my policy, over the years, to
not ask much and to only ask once - not to nag. If they don't get to it,
they don't. Not a big deal. I'd just do it when I had a chance. I also
sometimes make myself to-do lists and say, "If you have time to help me
out today, I have my to-do list on the table." They'll almost always
pick something off the list and do it and cross it off. Sometimes
they'll just start going through the list and do it all.
Back in the days when I used to make them do housework, everybody did it
with great resentment and anger. They did the minimum they felt they
could do, they banged things around, did a lousy job, glowering and
unhappy and snapping at each other and at me. I tried to make it more
fun. I tried to pay. I tried reasoning with them. I tried all kinds of
things. What worked was to stop all of it. I'd done damage, so I stopped
for YEARS. And they slowly became helpful until, in their mid to late
teens, they became super helpful and we no longer ever ever have any
hard feelings about housework and I don't go around feeling like a
martyr - I do what "I" want done and I slowly began to ask, gently and
very open-endedly for help and I get a lot of it. Best part is I get
help that is cheerful. Today Rosie and Roxana talked and laughed for
hours while choosing to do hard housework. Music to my ears!!!
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 7/21/2010 6:49 AM, R Boulier wrote:
Did you feel, also, that it is necessary that they learn to walk, speak,
read, write, add?
Again, I think we all understand the feeling. None of us want our kids
to grow up to be irresponsible or ignorant.
The question is, can we actually help our kids learn what we want them
to learn by "requiring" it?
For those of us who didn't "require" some sort of walking, speaking,
reading, writing, and adding, turns out our kids learned all those
things and much more.
The same principles of learning that worked for walking, speaking,
reading, etc, apply to learning to be responsible, helpful, courteous,
honest, and so on. Pressure and coercion and shaming and punishing -
these are not conducive to real learning. They breed resentment - and
eventually either passive or active resistance or apathy.
Separate, in your mind, what you want for your children to learn versus
your desire to have the house cleaned.
-pam
>I think we all really understand that feeling.
> Is it not necessary to learn to act as a part of the whole. I feel I
> would do my
> children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to
> the family.
Did you feel, also, that it is necessary that they learn to walk, speak,
read, write, add?
Again, I think we all understand the feeling. None of us want our kids
to grow up to be irresponsible or ignorant.
The question is, can we actually help our kids learn what we want them
to learn by "requiring" it?
For those of us who didn't "require" some sort of walking, speaking,
reading, writing, and adding, turns out our kids learned all those
things and much more.
The same principles of learning that worked for walking, speaking,
reading, etc, apply to learning to be responsible, helpful, courteous,
honest, and so on. Pressure and coercion and shaming and punishing -
these are not conducive to real learning. They breed resentment - and
eventually either passive or active resistance or apathy.
Separate, in your mind, what you want for your children to learn versus
your desire to have the house cleaned.
-pam
dezignarob
I understand the paycheck to paycheck. My dh has two part (near full) time jobs, and I work two part time jobs that amount to about 20 hours including often both days of the weekends.
Jayn has had to make a big adjustment. One of the things that has truly helped her is that we are sharing our reasons - ie the need for money - and broken down our spending so that she can see where the money goes. We aren't denying her treats or outings so that we adults can buy bon bons and beer - that's for sure!
It can be hard to support her desire for stuff. Sometimes it would be so much easier for me deal with if she just stopped wanting and asking. But it wouldn't necessarily be easier for her to have to repress her desires and dreams of bounty.
The other is to be really understanding and patient during what are her transition times from being with daddy all day to seeing me when I come home.
However what I really want to talk about is something that you will most likely consider to be really knit picky. It's in your words, which reflect your thinking - as is the case for everyone.
It's this:
===I feel I would do my children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family. ====
This is not a feeling. You don't "feel" this. You believe this. This is a statement of a belief or an opinion. Maybe it isn't even your true belief, but something you have heard from other sources.
The feeling is something underlying the belief. I'm going to guess the feeling is Fear.
Fear that they won't learn about responsibility unless you require it.
Fear that your kids will grow up lazy and financially desperate.
Fear that you and your dh will fail your children.
Sometimes people make similar statements when the real feeling is Resentment (that they have to do all the work, and they had chores as a child, and when will it be "my turn"?!?)
Sometimes people make similar statements when the real feeling is Fear of other people's opinion - the desire to look good in their community or church or extended family.
Sometimes just making broad statements as if they were feelings allows us to avoid examining the painful feelings themselves. Fear is a tough feeling to face squarely.
If you are having money troubles as my family is, Fear is hovering around like these darn fruit flies that won't seem to leave my kitchen. I can try to ignore them, but every now and then they swarm up again when I open a cupboard or move a dish. It's better to face Fear and acknowledge it.
Unschoolers, the many who have gone before, have found that so many conventional parents' usual fears are groundless or far smaller than imagined.
Then the next step, having understood the feeling, is to examine the need. Instead of making your need "instill responsibility", maybe it's "get certain tasks done".
I told Jayn I needed more help because I wasn't accomplishing much of my immense to do list. I was feeling overwhelmed, and actually a bit tearful. I asked her to try to do just a few more things for herself, like get her own iced water. She was resistant - explaining that she's bothered by the fruit flies in the kitchen! The real ones, not the metaphorical fear ones. I understand her fear around them 'though.
But - the next day I came out and she had voluntarily cleared all the toys and WIP's off the sofa. (That's Works In Progress, btw.) Just like when she was little - she still prefers to do a task that is for someone else than something that is self care.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
Jayn has had to make a big adjustment. One of the things that has truly helped her is that we are sharing our reasons - ie the need for money - and broken down our spending so that she can see where the money goes. We aren't denying her treats or outings so that we adults can buy bon bons and beer - that's for sure!
It can be hard to support her desire for stuff. Sometimes it would be so much easier for me deal with if she just stopped wanting and asking. But it wouldn't necessarily be easier for her to have to repress her desires and dreams of bounty.
The other is to be really understanding and patient during what are her transition times from being with daddy all day to seeing me when I come home.
However what I really want to talk about is something that you will most likely consider to be really knit picky. It's in your words, which reflect your thinking - as is the case for everyone.
It's this:
===I feel I would do my children a disservice not to require some sort of responsibility to the family. ====
This is not a feeling. You don't "feel" this. You believe this. This is a statement of a belief or an opinion. Maybe it isn't even your true belief, but something you have heard from other sources.
The feeling is something underlying the belief. I'm going to guess the feeling is Fear.
Fear that they won't learn about responsibility unless you require it.
Fear that your kids will grow up lazy and financially desperate.
Fear that you and your dh will fail your children.
Sometimes people make similar statements when the real feeling is Resentment (that they have to do all the work, and they had chores as a child, and when will it be "my turn"?!?)
Sometimes people make similar statements when the real feeling is Fear of other people's opinion - the desire to look good in their community or church or extended family.
Sometimes just making broad statements as if they were feelings allows us to avoid examining the painful feelings themselves. Fear is a tough feeling to face squarely.
If you are having money troubles as my family is, Fear is hovering around like these darn fruit flies that won't seem to leave my kitchen. I can try to ignore them, but every now and then they swarm up again when I open a cupboard or move a dish. It's better to face Fear and acknowledge it.
Unschoolers, the many who have gone before, have found that so many conventional parents' usual fears are groundless or far smaller than imagined.
Then the next step, having understood the feeling, is to examine the need. Instead of making your need "instill responsibility", maybe it's "get certain tasks done".
I told Jayn I needed more help because I wasn't accomplishing much of my immense to do list. I was feeling overwhelmed, and actually a bit tearful. I asked her to try to do just a few more things for herself, like get her own iced water. She was resistant - explaining that she's bothered by the fruit flies in the kitchen! The real ones, not the metaphorical fear ones. I understand her fear around them 'though.
But - the next day I came out and she had voluntarily cleared all the toys and WIP's off the sofa. (That's Works In Progress, btw.) Just like when she was little - she still prefers to do a task that is for someone else than something that is self care.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com