forcing TO do vs forcing NOT TO do....evolved from unschooling -was gun play
Kelly Halldorson
The vegetarian discussion has got me thinking. How do people feel about forcing children *to do* something vs. denying them something.
Is more harmful to the relationship than the other?
I can use the forcing a kid to eat meat vs denying them meat.
I think they both damage a relationship but I would think that for the denial it would depend on how the children feel about what is being denied.
It seems to me it's much more detrimental to a relationship to force someone TO DO something rather than deny them. All the things I'd like to take back from my early parenting have to do with forcing my kids to do something...very little has to do with denying them something. Maybe because I can always give whatever that was to them now? I don't know.
What do other think?
Peace,
Kelly
-------------------------------------------------
http://kelly.halldorson.com/blog
http://skeletonsdontsleep.com
http://facebook.com/jeffnkelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is more harmful to the relationship than the other?
I can use the forcing a kid to eat meat vs denying them meat.
I think they both damage a relationship but I would think that for the denial it would depend on how the children feel about what is being denied.
It seems to me it's much more detrimental to a relationship to force someone TO DO something rather than deny them. All the things I'd like to take back from my early parenting have to do with forcing my kids to do something...very little has to do with denying them something. Maybe because I can always give whatever that was to them now? I don't know.
What do other think?
Peace,
Kelly
-------------------------------------------------
http://kelly.halldorson.com/blog
http://skeletonsdontsleep.com
http://facebook.com/jeffnkelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 11, 2010, at 8:04 AM, Kelly Halldorson wrote:
For me personally, if someone is forcing me to do something that I
don't want to do, they've taken control away from me.
If someone denies me something, I still have the option (even if the
denier believes otherwise) of finding some other way to get it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What do other think?What's important is what the kids think!
For me personally, if someone is forcing me to do something that I
don't want to do, they've taken control away from me.
If someone denies me something, I still have the option (even if the
denier believes otherwise) of finding some other way to get it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda's Shoebox
After my husband and I became vegetarians, our girls did eat meat a few times. But after a while, eating so much yummy vegetarian food, the meat just become unappealing. So that wasn't really a big deal for us. I do, however, sometimes wonder how to deal with "boys". We have 3 girls and our oldest is 14.
Since the girls haven't been to public school in over 3 years, and we moved about 8 months ago, they just haven't had any opportunities to be seriously interested in any boys. That's a relief to me. But, I do wonder the best way to handle that as they get older.
I'm kind of torn in my thinking. On the one hand, I think it's probably better if they explore relationships while they're here with us, so that we can be there for them. On the other hand, I became pregnant with our oldest when I was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a little. I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.
I talk to my girls sometimes about sex and relationships. The first time I had sex, I didn't really mean to. It progressed from making out to sex so quickly I was truly taken by surprise. So, when the topic comes up I'll talk to them about how to avoid situations like that so you don't have sex before you are ready.
The last time we talked about sex, I explained that sperm could leak out at any time during sex, not just "at the end", and that sometimes it can be hard for a guy to stop, so that's why it's important for a guy to use a condom the entire time. The girls were horrified, lol. So, I kind of struggle with that as well. I want them to have the information well ahead of when they'll actually need it. But it's hard to know when the right time is to share things like that with them.
~ Amanda
Since the girls haven't been to public school in over 3 years, and we moved about 8 months ago, they just haven't had any opportunities to be seriously interested in any boys. That's a relief to me. But, I do wonder the best way to handle that as they get older.
I'm kind of torn in my thinking. On the one hand, I think it's probably better if they explore relationships while they're here with us, so that we can be there for them. On the other hand, I became pregnant with our oldest when I was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a little. I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.
I talk to my girls sometimes about sex and relationships. The first time I had sex, I didn't really mean to. It progressed from making out to sex so quickly I was truly taken by surprise. So, when the topic comes up I'll talk to them about how to avoid situations like that so you don't have sex before you are ready.
The last time we talked about sex, I explained that sperm could leak out at any time during sex, not just "at the end", and that sometimes it can be hard for a guy to stop, so that's why it's important for a guy to use a condom the entire time. The girls were horrified, lol. So, I kind of struggle with that as well. I want them to have the information well ahead of when they'll actually need it. But it's hard to know when the right time is to share things like that with them.
~ Amanda
Schuyler
I think it depends. I can't imagine either anymore. I can encourage and offer
and suggest, I can discourage and offer and suggest, but I can't, anymore
imagine forcing. I've sped up, in a moment when moments count, I've pushed and
prodded. I've said not now or delayed or asked to wait, but I can't remember
denying something, certainly not something sweeping like meat.
Simon, David and Linnaea have in their own turns and times been vegetarian. I
never have. Each of our diets have been accomodated by David and me. I can't
imagine telling Linnaea that she had to eat meat anymore than I can imagine
making Simon eat lima beans (my childhood fear). I can't imagine telling Linnaea
that she couldn't eat meat anymore than I can imagine telling David he couldn't
eat bananas.
Our home is some place I want all of us to feel comfortable and safe and happy
in. Using the not under my roof clause for things like dietary consideration,
well, I don't know how comfortable that would make any one of us feel. Certainly
it would be less homey round here.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Kelly Halldorson <kelly@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 11 July, 2010 13:04:35
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] forcing TO do vs forcing NOT TO do....evolved from
unschooling -was gun play
The vegetarian discussion has got me thinking. How do people feel about forcing
children *to do* something vs. denying them something.
Is more harmful to the relationship than the other?
I can use the forcing a kid to eat meat vs denying them meat.
I think they both damage a relationship but I would think that for the denial it
would depend on how the children feel about what is being denied.
It seems to me it's much more detrimental to a relationship to force someone TO
DO something rather than deny them. All the things I'd like to take back from my
early parenting have to do with forcing my kids to do something...very little
has to do with denying them something. Maybe because I can always give whatever
that was to them now? I don't know.
What do other think?
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and suggest, I can discourage and offer and suggest, but I can't, anymore
imagine forcing. I've sped up, in a moment when moments count, I've pushed and
prodded. I've said not now or delayed or asked to wait, but I can't remember
denying something, certainly not something sweeping like meat.
Simon, David and Linnaea have in their own turns and times been vegetarian. I
never have. Each of our diets have been accomodated by David and me. I can't
imagine telling Linnaea that she had to eat meat anymore than I can imagine
making Simon eat lima beans (my childhood fear). I can't imagine telling Linnaea
that she couldn't eat meat anymore than I can imagine telling David he couldn't
eat bananas.
Our home is some place I want all of us to feel comfortable and safe and happy
in. Using the not under my roof clause for things like dietary consideration,
well, I don't know how comfortable that would make any one of us feel. Certainly
it would be less homey round here.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Kelly Halldorson <kelly@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 11 July, 2010 13:04:35
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] forcing TO do vs forcing NOT TO do....evolved from
unschooling -was gun play
The vegetarian discussion has got me thinking. How do people feel about forcing
children *to do* something vs. denying them something.
Is more harmful to the relationship than the other?
I can use the forcing a kid to eat meat vs denying them meat.
I think they both damage a relationship but I would think that for the denial it
would depend on how the children feel about what is being denied.
It seems to me it's much more detrimental to a relationship to force someone TO
DO something rather than deny them. All the things I'd like to take back from my
early parenting have to do with forcing my kids to do something...very little
has to do with denying them something. Maybe because I can always give whatever
that was to them now? I don't know.
What do other think?
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It seems to me it's much more detrimental to a relationship to
force someone TO DO something rather than deny them. -=-
"to force" is too broad a term. Force food into their mouths? Force
them into their rooms and lock the door?
Or by "to force" do you mean set conditions on not doing the thing
(punishment)? Or extract agreements to do things (persuasion or
manipulation)?
And deny them what?
Not let them play with a gameboy that's sitting right in that room?
Or not let them study circus contortion in China?
Again, too broad a range for me to guess.
Can you give realistic examples of what you're asking about?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
force someone TO DO something rather than deny them. -=-
"to force" is too broad a term. Force food into their mouths? Force
them into their rooms and lock the door?
Or by "to force" do you mean set conditions on not doing the thing
(punishment)? Or extract agreements to do things (persuasion or
manipulation)?
And deny them what?
Not let them play with a gameboy that's sitting right in that room?
Or not let them study circus contortion in China?
Again, too broad a range for me to guess.
Can you give realistic examples of what you're asking about?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want them to have the information well ahead of when they'll
actually need it. But it's hard to know when the right time is to
share things like that with them. -=-
After you think "I shouldn't have waited so long..." it's too late!
I gave each of my kids (male or female) condoms when they were 14, and
said I didn't want the first time they used one to be the second time
they needed one.
-=-I'm kind of torn in my thinking. On the one hand, I think it's
probably better if they explore relationships while they're here with
us, so that we can be there for them. On the other hand, I became
pregnant with our oldest when I was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a
little. I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until
their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.
-=-
Instead of rules or arbitrary ages, recast all those thoughts in terms
of principles.
Safety.
Courtesy.
Compassion.
Don't think of it as "dating." Break outings down into what they are--
going to a party, going to a gaming session, going to a conference and
hanging out with other kids, visiting the neighbors*, going out to
eat, going to a movie.
Some of those are more "date like" than others, if it's one boy taking
one girl, but my kids have very rarely ever been in "date" situations.
The * from two paragraphs up refers to a neighbor of mine who was
forbidden to date, or even drive around with me. Hispanic old
northern New Mexico family. She was "going out with" (in school, her
boyfriend of record) a guy from Santa Clara Pueblo. Her parents would
NOT (not, not) have let her date Indians, if they had let her date
anybody.
So they met at my house. Her mother would let her walk down to my
house and hang out. My parents didn't mind me being friends with
Indians at all. They "hung out" in private, with the door closed.
They didn't "go all the way," in 60's parlance, but they did more than
her mom would've liked just by both being under the same roof. Of
course at school they were under the same roof, in the same room,
holding hands, sharing lunch, walking down to the river (our school
was right on the Rio Grande)...
So sometimes parents think they're limiting a child and children have
known for centuries how to maintain the illusion without being
controlled.
If your daughters are knowledgeable that will help keep them safe.
NOTHING ON EARTH will keep them as safe as them knowing that if they
want a rescue from a difficult situation, you will come and get them
without shaming them, without punishing them, without further trying
to limit them.
Trust.
If they trust you, you will be able to trust them.
If they don't trust you, then they won't be honest with you.
Sandra, the mother of former teenaged boys, and one gregarious
teenaged girl
further documentation:
http://sandradodd.com/sex
http://sandradodd.com/pudding
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
actually need it. But it's hard to know when the right time is to
share things like that with them. -=-
After you think "I shouldn't have waited so long..." it's too late!
I gave each of my kids (male or female) condoms when they were 14, and
said I didn't want the first time they used one to be the second time
they needed one.
-=-I'm kind of torn in my thinking. On the one hand, I think it's
probably better if they explore relationships while they're here with
us, so that we can be there for them. On the other hand, I became
pregnant with our oldest when I was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a
little. I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until
their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.
-=-
Instead of rules or arbitrary ages, recast all those thoughts in terms
of principles.
Safety.
Courtesy.
Compassion.
Don't think of it as "dating." Break outings down into what they are--
going to a party, going to a gaming session, going to a conference and
hanging out with other kids, visiting the neighbors*, going out to
eat, going to a movie.
Some of those are more "date like" than others, if it's one boy taking
one girl, but my kids have very rarely ever been in "date" situations.
The * from two paragraphs up refers to a neighbor of mine who was
forbidden to date, or even drive around with me. Hispanic old
northern New Mexico family. She was "going out with" (in school, her
boyfriend of record) a guy from Santa Clara Pueblo. Her parents would
NOT (not, not) have let her date Indians, if they had let her date
anybody.
So they met at my house. Her mother would let her walk down to my
house and hang out. My parents didn't mind me being friends with
Indians at all. They "hung out" in private, with the door closed.
They didn't "go all the way," in 60's parlance, but they did more than
her mom would've liked just by both being under the same roof. Of
course at school they were under the same roof, in the same room,
holding hands, sharing lunch, walking down to the river (our school
was right on the Rio Grande)...
So sometimes parents think they're limiting a child and children have
known for centuries how to maintain the illusion without being
controlled.
If your daughters are knowledgeable that will help keep them safe.
NOTHING ON EARTH will keep them as safe as them knowing that if they
want a rescue from a difficult situation, you will come and get them
without shaming them, without punishing them, without further trying
to limit them.
Trust.
If they trust you, you will be able to trust them.
If they don't trust you, then they won't be honest with you.
Sandra, the mother of former teenaged boys, and one gregarious
teenaged girl
further documentation:
http://sandradodd.com/sex
http://sandradodd.com/pudding
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"Amanda's Shoebox" <amandasshoebox@...> wrote:
It can help to step away from the idea of "dating" and think about your kids spending time with other people, socializing and learning about themselves and relationships. They already Know some things about themselves and relationships, regardless of what's been said openly.
How's your relationship with your girls? What's the communication like? How do they get along with each other?
Those are things that will feed into other relationships. If they're used to one person bossing others (parents, siblings) that's going to matter in other relationships. If they're used to "I don't know what I want" being an invitation for another person to snatch decision making away from them, that will matter in other relationships - "casual" friendships as much as romance.
If "not okay with" means "won't let" (or will put pressure on the girls to avoid) that's not going to help your girls have a good sense of their own boundaries or confidence in their ability to communicate with other people. "Not letting" girls make their own decisions sets them up for someone else making their decisions in other ways - friends pushing them to do things they aren't sure they want to do, or their own hormones pushing them, for that matter.
---Meredith
> I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.**************
It can help to step away from the idea of "dating" and think about your kids spending time with other people, socializing and learning about themselves and relationships. They already Know some things about themselves and relationships, regardless of what's been said openly.
How's your relationship with your girls? What's the communication like? How do they get along with each other?
Those are things that will feed into other relationships. If they're used to one person bossing others (parents, siblings) that's going to matter in other relationships. If they're used to "I don't know what I want" being an invitation for another person to snatch decision making away from them, that will matter in other relationships - "casual" friendships as much as romance.
If "not okay with" means "won't let" (or will put pressure on the girls to avoid) that's not going to help your girls have a good sense of their own boundaries or confidence in their ability to communicate with other people. "Not letting" girls make their own decisions sets them up for someone else making their decisions in other ways - friends pushing them to do things they aren't sure they want to do, or their own hormones pushing them, for that matter.
---Meredith
Heather
<"Amanda's Shoebox" <amandasshoebox@...> wrote:
We have 3 girls and our oldest is 14....
I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We
haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up. >
This is interesting to me. My dd is 11 & her newest best friend, is a boy,
also age 11. They met while performing in the musical theater show, The
Music Man. I don't consider them "dating", just doing best friend stuff.
But I'm wondering how it would look different if they were older & dating?
Holding hands? Driving themselves to places without a parent with them?
Yesterday I took them to the mall. They wandered around & shopped while I
hung out at the food court & read my kindle. It would never occur to me
that I could "prevent" my kids from dating, if that is what they wanted.
heather
tucson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have 3 girls and our oldest is 14....
I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We
haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up. >
This is interesting to me. My dd is 11 & her newest best friend, is a boy,
also age 11. They met while performing in the musical theater show, The
Music Man. I don't consider them "dating", just doing best friend stuff.
But I'm wondering how it would look different if they were older & dating?
Holding hands? Driving themselves to places without a parent with them?
Yesterday I took them to the mall. They wandered around & shopped while I
hung out at the food court & read my kindle. It would never occur to me
that I could "prevent" my kids from dating, if that is what they wanted.
heather
tucson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Oh, I meant to share this...
This is what they ended up doing last Tuesday when they were bored. They
insisted they needed to go to Target. They spent $3 on props (hence the
name of the video). My daughter did the editing & finding the music & all
that. I didn't even know she knew about silent movies...
http://www.youtube.com/user/HereComeTheWeirdos#p/a/u/0/D2_cxTWx-GY
heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is what they ended up doing last Tuesday when they were bored. They
insisted they needed to go to Target. They spent $3 on props (hence the
name of the video). My daughter did the editing & finding the music & all
that. I didn't even know she knew about silent movies...
http://www.youtube.com/user/HereComeTheWeirdos#p/a/u/0/D2_cxTWx-GY
heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I'm kind of torn in my thinking. On the one hand, I think it's probably
better if they explore relationships while they're here with us, so that we can
be there for them. On the other hand, I became pregnant with our oldest when I
was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a little. I don't think my husband would be
okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it
just hasn't come up. ***
Were you allowed to date and have sex?
There is a whole forest by my house full of used condoms and underwear of
teenagers having sex, hiding it from those that think they shouldn't be.
If they aren't allowed to date or have sex, and they find someone in which
they'd like to do both, they WILL hide it. It's such a huge and powerful thing,
biologically driven, that I don't think any parent can prevent it, even if they
think they are and have good reasons for doing so.
I think one of the things our culture does to teens that is hugely damaging, is
to not believe in their ability to be in healthy lasting relationships. It
doesn't necessarily mean forever relationships, but teens can be in committed
relationships, they can communicate and work things out. So many parents don't
believe this and diminish this potential by thinking things like "puppy love" or
other diminutive sorts of ideas about teens and relationships. In many ways
it's created teens that will only do short term non-committal relationships,
like fads of jeans, they trade it in for the next one. Those kinds of
relationships, I think, are more painful and damaging.
Dating can be casual, get to know the other person kind of things. That's not
what I'm talking about though. If your girls aren't interested, then no big
deal. Chamille wasn't interested at all, and it hit her hard when she or we
weren't expecting it at all. Chamille was never one of those girls swooning
over all the cute boys. She was never thinking about the day that she "finally"
had a boyfriend. She just wanted friends and it didn't matter if they were boys
or girls, she just wanted friends with common interests, what she found was a
boy in which they were immediately drawn together, very powerfully. Neither one
of them expected that. They've been together for 1.25 yrs. Chamille is 16 and
her boyfriend is 14.
They aren't always mature, they get in arguments, they cry and sometimes are
overly emotional with each other, BUT they work things out, sometimes more
maturely than some adults I know.
My personal belief is that, parents shouldn't enforce abstinence, but discuss
sex in realistic ways. Helping kids know how to say "no" or "yes" in a healthy
way goes a lot farther than saying "no, wrong, shouldn't do it, don't do it."
That cuts off communication surrounding sex and relationships. Most parents
would rather be in the "know" in that regard, for many reasons, one being
medical, and another being safety, and the biggest, to prevent pregnancies that
aren't wanted.
That's *my* opinion.
One of our neighbor's daughters got pregnant and didn't tell anyone until it was
well past the time she could have an abortion, didn't want to have a baby, but
was afraid to tell her dad that she'd gotten pregnant because she wasn't
supposed to be having sex. She was 16 and hid her pregnancy until it was no
longer possible to do so.
***The girls were horrified, lol. So, I kind of struggle with that as well. I
want them to have the information well ahead of when they'll actually need it.
But it's hard to know when the right time is to share things like that with
them.***
If they were horrified, find a better way! We've always talked about sex in a
very candid way at our house. When the kids are small, give small simple
answers, as they get older give bigger and more complex answers, as long as they
are receptive. My kids have always been receptive, in part because we are
candid about it. Chamille is the most private person about "body" anything, yet
we still find ways to talk about this sort of thing because it's valuable
information, just like any other valuable life learning thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
better if they explore relationships while they're here with us, so that we can
be there for them. On the other hand, I became pregnant with our oldest when I
was 16, so "boyfriends" scare me a little. I don't think my husband would be
okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it
just hasn't come up. ***
Were you allowed to date and have sex?
There is a whole forest by my house full of used condoms and underwear of
teenagers having sex, hiding it from those that think they shouldn't be.
If they aren't allowed to date or have sex, and they find someone in which
they'd like to do both, they WILL hide it. It's such a huge and powerful thing,
biologically driven, that I don't think any parent can prevent it, even if they
think they are and have good reasons for doing so.
I think one of the things our culture does to teens that is hugely damaging, is
to not believe in their ability to be in healthy lasting relationships. It
doesn't necessarily mean forever relationships, but teens can be in committed
relationships, they can communicate and work things out. So many parents don't
believe this and diminish this potential by thinking things like "puppy love" or
other diminutive sorts of ideas about teens and relationships. In many ways
it's created teens that will only do short term non-committal relationships,
like fads of jeans, they trade it in for the next one. Those kinds of
relationships, I think, are more painful and damaging.
Dating can be casual, get to know the other person kind of things. That's not
what I'm talking about though. If your girls aren't interested, then no big
deal. Chamille wasn't interested at all, and it hit her hard when she or we
weren't expecting it at all. Chamille was never one of those girls swooning
over all the cute boys. She was never thinking about the day that she "finally"
had a boyfriend. She just wanted friends and it didn't matter if they were boys
or girls, she just wanted friends with common interests, what she found was a
boy in which they were immediately drawn together, very powerfully. Neither one
of them expected that. They've been together for 1.25 yrs. Chamille is 16 and
her boyfriend is 14.
They aren't always mature, they get in arguments, they cry and sometimes are
overly emotional with each other, BUT they work things out, sometimes more
maturely than some adults I know.
My personal belief is that, parents shouldn't enforce abstinence, but discuss
sex in realistic ways. Helping kids know how to say "no" or "yes" in a healthy
way goes a lot farther than saying "no, wrong, shouldn't do it, don't do it."
That cuts off communication surrounding sex and relationships. Most parents
would rather be in the "know" in that regard, for many reasons, one being
medical, and another being safety, and the biggest, to prevent pregnancies that
aren't wanted.
That's *my* opinion.
One of our neighbor's daughters got pregnant and didn't tell anyone until it was
well past the time she could have an abortion, didn't want to have a baby, but
was afraid to tell her dad that she'd gotten pregnant because she wasn't
supposed to be having sex. She was 16 and hid her pregnancy until it was no
longer possible to do so.
***The girls were horrified, lol. So, I kind of struggle with that as well. I
want them to have the information well ahead of when they'll actually need it.
But it's hard to know when the right time is to share things like that with
them.***
If they were horrified, find a better way! We've always talked about sex in a
very candid way at our house. When the kids are small, give small simple
answers, as they get older give bigger and more complex answers, as long as they
are receptive. My kids have always been receptive, in part because we are
candid about it. Chamille is the most private person about "body" anything, yet
we still find ways to talk about this sort of thing because it's valuable
information, just like any other valuable life learning thing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
>>>I don't think my husband would be okay with them dating until their 18. We haven't really discussed it, since it just hasn't come up.<<<By the time I was 18, I had been dating my future husband for 1.5 years, and I had *known* for quite some time that he'd be my life partner--marriage wasn't yet on our minds, but we called each other soulmates. I'd actually fallen for him the first time I ever saw him at age 14.
Both my parents were less than thrilled about him, especially when we made it clear that he would be me at college; but 22 years later, they are thrilled that he is my husband and that we are still together despite having undergone some pretty serious stuff together (starting, running, and ending a business with his parents; losing all our homes to fire; surviving a serious head injury; amongst other things).
Even if my parents had denied me from dating him, I would've found a way to see him no matter what. Even if that involved lying, sneaking out, or other means. I would've much preferred my relationship to be something that I could share openly with my parents, like we did with his parents who welcomed me into their family with open arms.
After experiencing the way his parents brought me into their lives, I knew that I wanted to experience my childrens' relationships the way his parents did. It has always been more fun, open, and free with my husband's family than with mine. It still is.
Jenny Cyphers
***Don't think of it as "dating." Break outings down into what they are--
going to a party, going to a gaming session, going to a conference and
hanging out with other kids, visiting the neighbors*, going out to
eat, going to a movie.
Some of those are more "date like" than others, if it's one boy taking
one girl, but my kids have very rarely ever been in "date" situations.***
YES YES YES! And YES! Most of the teens I know right now really don't like
dating, it's too formal and stilted, with an expectation underlying it. It's
better to get to know another in and around lots of settings within a group, or
out alone seeing a movie, or getting ice cream, or hanging out and listening to
music.
***If your daughters are knowledgeable that will help keep them safe.
NOTHING ON EARTH will keep them as safe as them knowing that if they
want a rescue from a difficult situation, you will come and get them
without shaming them, without punishing them, without further trying
to limit them.***
Not to mention a shoulder to cry on under those stressful circumstances in which
a teen might need rescuing! That will also allow for further conversation and
how to avoid that kind of trouble in the future. If parents are obstacles in a
rescue, they won't be called upon, nor will they ever get a chance to know about
the situation, or to give helpful input as the person with possibly more
knowledge, the person with whom helpful ideas could be attained or at least
talked through. I see that happen ALL the time! Even with kids with relatively
"nice" parents, the parents are kept out of the loop on really big and important
information, information that I would never, as a parent, want to be kept out of
the loop on!
Chamille and I have heard it all! Kids just hide stuff from their parents if
they know their parents would not approve.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going to a party, going to a gaming session, going to a conference and
hanging out with other kids, visiting the neighbors*, going out to
eat, going to a movie.
Some of those are more "date like" than others, if it's one boy taking
one girl, but my kids have very rarely ever been in "date" situations.***
YES YES YES! And YES! Most of the teens I know right now really don't like
dating, it's too formal and stilted, with an expectation underlying it. It's
better to get to know another in and around lots of settings within a group, or
out alone seeing a movie, or getting ice cream, or hanging out and listening to
music.
***If your daughters are knowledgeable that will help keep them safe.
NOTHING ON EARTH will keep them as safe as them knowing that if they
want a rescue from a difficult situation, you will come and get them
without shaming them, without punishing them, without further trying
to limit them.***
Not to mention a shoulder to cry on under those stressful circumstances in which
a teen might need rescuing! That will also allow for further conversation and
how to avoid that kind of trouble in the future. If parents are obstacles in a
rescue, they won't be called upon, nor will they ever get a chance to know about
the situation, or to give helpful input as the person with possibly more
knowledge, the person with whom helpful ideas could be attained or at least
talked through. I see that happen ALL the time! Even with kids with relatively
"nice" parents, the parents are kept out of the loop on really big and important
information, information that I would never, as a parent, want to be kept out of
the loop on!
Chamille and I have heard it all! Kids just hide stuff from their parents if
they know their parents would not approve.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
>>>I think one of the things our culture does to teens that is hugely damaging, is to not believe in their ability to be in healthy lasting relationships. It doesn't necessarily mean forever relationships...<<<And sometimes it does. My parents met at age 14, married at age 19, and are still together 46 years later. My in-laws married while my mother-in-law was still in high school, when she was 17! Gave her a good reason to move out of her mother's house and they are still together 44 years later. And then there is my husband and me...met at age 14, dated briefly, he then dated nearly all my best friends, and we started seriously dating when I was 17. We are about to celebrate our 16th wedding anniversary, and we've been together for 22 years.
>>>If they were horrified, find a better way! We've always talked about sex in a very candid way at our house. When the kids are small, give small simple answers, as they get older give bigger and more complex answers, as long as they are receptive.<<<I agree. As a home-birthing Mama, the topic came up early. As a Doula, the topic has come up quite a bit. I provide short, easy answers. The other day I overheard Signe (4) ask her sister why girl dogs have a yoni (vagina). Nena (8 this week) said, "because that's where the boy dog puts his penis so they can have puppies, and that's how the puppies come out." Simple, to the point. They moved on to some Wizards of Waverly Place discussion immediately after that.
Sandra Dodd
-=- Using the not under my roof clause for things like dietary
consideration,
well, I don't know how comfortable that would make any one of us feel.
Certainly
it would be less homey round here.-=-
Marty's girlfriend stays over sometimes. She lives in another town.
It's not hours away, maybe 40 minutes. Sometimes it's easier for her
to stay here.
Marty isn't allowed to stay at her house. I don't even think her
parents would want them in a room with the door closed. She's 24.
He's 21. He lived with a guy for three years, before Marty.
They're thinking of visiting Keith's father, who will probably die
within a year or two (or a month or two, but...).
I don't know whether to tell them he won't let them sleep together.
I'm not sure. Maybe that was Keith's mom's rule and he WOULD let
them. It's a hard question to call a 92 year old guy and ask.
Maybe I could ask Keith's brother, who has a girlfriend he lives with,
whether the "under their roof" rule has softened since the 1970's when
they first made me and Keith sleep apart.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consideration,
well, I don't know how comfortable that would make any one of us feel.
Certainly
it would be less homey round here.-=-
Marty's girlfriend stays over sometimes. She lives in another town.
It's not hours away, maybe 40 minutes. Sometimes it's easier for her
to stay here.
Marty isn't allowed to stay at her house. I don't even think her
parents would want them in a room with the door closed. She's 24.
He's 21. He lived with a guy for three years, before Marty.
They're thinking of visiting Keith's father, who will probably die
within a year or two (or a month or two, but...).
I don't know whether to tell them he won't let them sleep together.
I'm not sure. Maybe that was Keith's mom's rule and he WOULD let
them. It's a hard question to call a 92 year old guy and ask.
Maybe I could ask Keith's brother, who has a girlfriend he lives with,
whether the "under their roof" rule has softened since the 1970's when
they first made me and Keith sleep apart.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Halldorson
++++Marty isn't allowed to stay at her house. I don't even think her
parents would want them in a room with the door closed. She's 24.
He's 21. He lived with a guy for three years, before Marty.+++
Jeff and I had been living together for 2 years. We had a SON together and Jeff's mother would not allow us to share a room when stayed with her for two weeks. I had to sleep in one room with Wolf and Jeff slept on a separate floor.
When we came back for a visit a year later we were married but waited to tell her until bedtime. She was ushering us into our separate floors and Jeff said..."um nope, not this time we're married."
Peace,
Kelly
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents would want them in a room with the door closed. She's 24.
He's 21. He lived with a guy for three years, before Marty.+++
Jeff and I had been living together for 2 years. We had a SON together and Jeff's mother would not allow us to share a room when stayed with her for two weeks. I had to sleep in one room with Wolf and Jeff slept on a separate floor.
When we came back for a visit a year later we were married but waited to tell her until bedtime. She was ushering us into our separate floors and Jeff said..."um nope, not this time we're married."
Peace,
Kelly
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If they aren't allowed to date or have sex, and they find someone
in which
they'd like to do both, they WILL hide it. It's such a huge and
powerful thing,
biologically driven, that I don't think any parent can prevent it,
even if they
think they are and have good reasons for doing so.-=-
There's also an abiding but wrongheaded parental theory (popular among
Catholics in my hometown who sent their girls to an all-girls high
school in Santa Fe, Loretto, while it was still in business.
That didn't keep girls from getting pregnant.
The parents hoped that keeping them where boys officially were not
would replace their need for information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in which
they'd like to do both, they WILL hide it. It's such a huge and
powerful thing,
biologically driven, that I don't think any parent can prevent it,
even if they
think they are and have good reasons for doing so.-=-
There's also an abiding but wrongheaded parental theory (popular among
Catholics in my hometown who sent their girls to an all-girls high
school in Santa Fe, Loretto, while it was still in business.
That didn't keep girls from getting pregnant.
The parents hoped that keeping them where boys officially were not
would replace their need for information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When we came back for a visit a year later we were married but
waited to tell her until bedtime. She was ushering us into our
separate floors and Jeff said..."um nope, not this time we're
married."-=-
Oh, that's FUNNY!!
One time Keith's mom was trying to put me and Keith in one room and
the kids in the den three rooms away. We rearranged ourselves so that
Holly (who was nursing) was with me, and the boys and Keith were in
the den (where they could watch TV).
His mom seemed all flustered. She didn't get it; she didn't like it;
she didn't know how to act.
But after that she just used to let us arrange ourselves however we
wanted to.
Once when Marty was nine and had a new puppy, we took the puppy. They
had had a dog all of Keith's life, but their dog had died just a year
or so before. I didn't think she would mind, but apparently she had
de-dog-haired everything and didn't want the puppy in. No problem,
Keith said, and he, Marty, Kirby and the dog made beds on the patio.
(We had taking to carrying folding futons with us whenever we went
there anyway, so it was our bedding and not hers.)
There was a thunder and rain storm and she got up to check on them, to
find out Holly and I had already gotten up to check on them. They
were having adventurous fun, so that was fine. She did soften up,
though, partly because there was no argument, there was no resentment,
just solutions and niceness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
waited to tell her until bedtime. She was ushering us into our
separate floors and Jeff said..."um nope, not this time we're
married."-=-
Oh, that's FUNNY!!
One time Keith's mom was trying to put me and Keith in one room and
the kids in the den three rooms away. We rearranged ourselves so that
Holly (who was nursing) was with me, and the boys and Keith were in
the den (where they could watch TV).
His mom seemed all flustered. She didn't get it; she didn't like it;
she didn't know how to act.
But after that she just used to let us arrange ourselves however we
wanted to.
Once when Marty was nine and had a new puppy, we took the puppy. They
had had a dog all of Keith's life, but their dog had died just a year
or so before. I didn't think she would mind, but apparently she had
de-dog-haired everything and didn't want the puppy in. No problem,
Keith said, and he, Marty, Kirby and the dog made beds on the patio.
(We had taking to carrying folding futons with us whenever we went
there anyway, so it was our bedding and not hers.)
There was a thunder and rain storm and she got up to check on them, to
find out Holly and I had already gotten up to check on them. They
were having adventurous fun, so that was fine. She did soften up,
though, partly because there was no argument, there was no resentment,
just solutions and niceness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 7/11/2010 4:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the lead.
-pam
> It's a hard question to call a 92 year old guy and ask.I'm thinking I'd suggest to my kids that the 92 year old man might be
> Maybe I could ask Keith's brother, who has a girlfriend he lives with,
> whether the "under their roof" rule has softened since the 1970's when
> they first made me and Keith sleep apart.
more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the lead.
-pam
Susan Steynberg
Hi All
I hope im on the right topic, ive been reading and pouring over all the
discussions and going to Sandra's articals and have had a HUGE MIND
CHANGE.... wow i see clearly now, but i feel it is too late for my girls,
12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating cellphone
use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think, how to
behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
in our eyes...
i have been making a shift, free tv watching, 2min noodles for breakfast,
YES more, apoligizes to them, told them i was wrong, etc etc...... but now
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust when
the damage was done????? they have become rigid like me. i have the words by
Pam " it only takes a second to do better" written on my wall but i feel
that the knots r so tight feel a bit overwhelmed with the huge damage i have
caused, they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs and
it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
what i did to them....
i need some DAMAGE UNDO, advise, please. Also mtyhusband is still not seeing
it yet fully, he thinks, "Let just put more restrictions and punish them if
the do wrong" theory.
Thank you so much for all the work u guys are doing with liberating parents
and kids, we need this kind of parenting in South Africa...... who knows
maybe i invite Sandra to come hold an unschooling\ parenting confrence...
Susan Steynberg South Africa
I hope im on the right topic, ive been reading and pouring over all the
discussions and going to Sandra's articals and have had a HUGE MIND
CHANGE.... wow i see clearly now, but i feel it is too late for my girls,
12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating cellphone
use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think, how to
behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
in our eyes...
i have been making a shift, free tv watching, 2min noodles for breakfast,
YES more, apoligizes to them, told them i was wrong, etc etc...... but now
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust when
the damage was done????? they have become rigid like me. i have the words by
Pam " it only takes a second to do better" written on my wall but i feel
that the knots r so tight feel a bit overwhelmed with the huge damage i have
caused, they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs and
it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
what i did to them....
i need some DAMAGE UNDO, advise, please. Also mtyhusband is still not seeing
it yet fully, he thinks, "Let just put more restrictions and punish them if
the do wrong" theory.
Thank you so much for all the work u guys are doing with liberating parents
and kids, we need this kind of parenting in South Africa...... who knows
maybe i invite Sandra to come hold an unschooling\ parenting confrence...
Susan Steynberg South Africa
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
>
> On 7/11/2010 4:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> > It's a hard question to call a 92 year old guy and ask.
> > Maybe I could ask Keith's brother, who has a girlfriend he lives with,
> > whether the "under their roof" rule has softened since the 1970's when
> > they first made me and Keith sleep apart.
>
> I'm thinking I'd suggest to my kids that the 92 year old man might be
> more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
> unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the lead.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
--
Susan Steynberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
I'm thinking I'd suggest to my kids that the 92 year old man might be
more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the
lead.-=-
Good idea.
They'll have bedding with them anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm thinking I'd suggest to my kids that the 92 year old man might be
more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the
lead.-=-
Good idea.
They'll have bedding with them anyway.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-i feel it is too late for my girls,
12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating
cellphone
use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think,
how to
behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
in our eyes...-=-
Before I even read the rest of your post I'm going to give you some
links and suggestions.
Don't go too fast. Discuss why. Apologize. Gradually and sensibly
untangle the situation.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Don't do this without your husband's approval. Divorce will NOT help.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Teens who came later to unschooling:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/latertounschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating
cellphone
use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think,
how to
behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
in our eyes...-=-
Before I even read the rest of your post I'm going to give you some
links and suggestions.
Don't go too fast. Discuss why. Apologize. Gradually and sensibly
untangle the situation.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Don't do this without your husband's approval. Divorce will NOT help.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Teens who came later to unschooling:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/latertounschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-but now
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust
when
the damage was done?-=-
You don't let go and trust, I don't think, because they don't trust
YOU yet. And they can't, really. Not yet.
But you could be less arbitrary in your rules, maybe. And less
punitive in punishments. And gradually, over a few months, it could
get much better.
-=-they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs and
it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
what i did to them....-=-
This could be a wonderful tool for you all: Ask them to help you do
for him what you now wish you had done for them.
They could be healed some by helping you figure out how a better way
to be would be. And as those resentments and jealousies come out
("You didn't let ME do that!") you could talk through those things,
tell them you wish you had, that you wish you could have a do-over,
and have another hug and apology. Talk to them about your own
upbringing, in those moments, maybe. Talk to them about how you hope
they will be with their own children, if they're in the mood to discuss.
They might not want to discuss it much at first. Don't make them.
Let them get it by little bits and give them time to think. With your
husband, too. Don't push and rush. The fact that you've changed your
mind will prevent further damage. Undoing years of behavior is going
to take over a year to untangle.
It can help to ask the kids questions. What are the rules of the
other families they hang around with? Are some stricter? Less
strict? What do they think would be good in a particular situation?
-=-Thank you so much for all the work u guys are doing with liberating
parents
and kids, we need this kind of parenting in South Africa...... who knows
maybe i invite Sandra to come hold an unschooling\ parenting
confrence...-=-
My kids are grown, so I have more ability to run around now.
Get me soon before I'm too old to travel, but it wouldn't need to be
"a conference," it could be a more informal gathering with discussions.
It's possible that you would gain more benefit, though, by travelling
where there are lots of unschoolers and their children, to a
conference in the U.S. or England. There's a big think happening in
Australia later this year.
Where's the newish site with the great conference listings?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust
when
the damage was done?-=-
You don't let go and trust, I don't think, because they don't trust
YOU yet. And they can't, really. Not yet.
But you could be less arbitrary in your rules, maybe. And less
punitive in punishments. And gradually, over a few months, it could
get much better.
-=-they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs and
it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
what i did to them....-=-
This could be a wonderful tool for you all: Ask them to help you do
for him what you now wish you had done for them.
They could be healed some by helping you figure out how a better way
to be would be. And as those resentments and jealousies come out
("You didn't let ME do that!") you could talk through those things,
tell them you wish you had, that you wish you could have a do-over,
and have another hug and apology. Talk to them about your own
upbringing, in those moments, maybe. Talk to them about how you hope
they will be with their own children, if they're in the mood to discuss.
They might not want to discuss it much at first. Don't make them.
Let them get it by little bits and give them time to think. With your
husband, too. Don't push and rush. The fact that you've changed your
mind will prevent further damage. Undoing years of behavior is going
to take over a year to untangle.
It can help to ask the kids questions. What are the rules of the
other families they hang around with? Are some stricter? Less
strict? What do they think would be good in a particular situation?
-=-Thank you so much for all the work u guys are doing with liberating
parents
and kids, we need this kind of parenting in South Africa...... who knows
maybe i invite Sandra to come hold an unschooling\ parenting
confrence...-=-
My kids are grown, so I have more ability to run around now.
Get me soon before I'm too old to travel, but it wouldn't need to be
"a conference," it could be a more informal gathering with discussions.
It's possible that you would gain more benefit, though, by travelling
where there are lots of unschoolers and their children, to a
conference in the U.S. or England. There's a big think happening in
Australia later this year.
Where's the newish site with the great conference listings?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Susan Steynberg <suzisword@...> wrote:
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs andHave you said "you don't have to do that"? Not "don't do it" but "don't Have to." Sometimes older siblings can feel like they need to step in and do some parenting, like mom's dropped the ball and its up to them to pick it up. See what they're doing as an attempt on their part to be responsible and do the "right" thing. As old as they are, it would be reasonable to talk about some of the ideas behind why you want to change the way you do things so they don't feel like you've given up and its all on their shoulders.
> it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
> what i did to them....
> i have been making a shift, free tv watching, 2min noodles for breakfast,It will take time for them to trust all that, that its permanent, that its a real change and not just a weird side-trip in their lives. It can help to think about transitions and how everyone in your family handles transitions - this is going to be a months-long transition, so be easy and gentle with everyone, including yourself and your dh.
> YES more, apoligizes to them, told them i was wrong, etc etc......
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Jenny Cyphers
***but now
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust when
the damage was done????? they have become rigid like me.***
You may need to accept the fact that they may do what you fear. That's part of
trusting a person, knowing that they may do what you don't want them to do. The
difference will be in what you do AFTER that happens. If you accept it as a
mistake to learn from, something to talk about and not something that vindicates
you, as the parent, or gives you cause to shame and control, you'll be one step
in proving to your kids that they can be trusted and that YOU can be trusted.
My husband just got a birthday present. We helped him get some very very cheap
musical equipment. A parent put them up for sale to punish his kid for smoking
pot. We went back and forth on whether we wanted any part in that, but the
price was something we could afford right now and so far from what something
like that would go for, even used. The kid wasn't home and didn't know what he
was going home to. I'm sure it was yucky.
Here's the thing, that kid isn't going to learn that smoking pot is bad and
change his behavior. He's going to learn that his parents are mean and
vindictive, that they have no understanding, that they are inflexible, not to be
trusted, and people that aren't to be relied on as a soft landing when things
get hard. Kids make mistakes. People make mistakes.
When you make a mistake in your relationship, how do you want your husband to
respond to it? Do you want him to take away your phone privilege, or tell you
that you can't go out for coffee with your best girl friend because you
neglected to do the dishes and cook dinner? I'm not even saying that those
things are mistakes in a relationship, but if it's what you usually do and if
it's expected and you don't do it, it could feel that way. It would be
manipulative and controlling, the same thing that you are trying to do to your
kids to get them to do what you want them to do.
When I look into these kinds of relationships, where the parents are punitive
and inflexible, and/or controlling and manipulative, the most immediate thing
that I notice that can change is for a parent to take the time to listen, even
when the child is angry and disrespectful. Listen. Don't react, just listen,
and hear the words that are being said behind the emotions. Take that to heart.
Those strong emotions are there because the child feels disrespected deeply and
wounded from your actions and inactions. THAT is really really hard to hear,
but hearing it could very well be the thing that changes everything.
The next time one of your girls is angry or rebellious or disrespectful towards
you, take a deep breath and listen and then ask them for a remedy to the
situation. Ask them how they want it to be different. Then DO that. Actions
speak so much louder than words, even apologies. Apologies mean nothing without
action. Undoing damage will take time and continuous action on your part to do
better. The onus is on you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust when
the damage was done????? they have become rigid like me.***
You may need to accept the fact that they may do what you fear. That's part of
trusting a person, knowing that they may do what you don't want them to do. The
difference will be in what you do AFTER that happens. If you accept it as a
mistake to learn from, something to talk about and not something that vindicates
you, as the parent, or gives you cause to shame and control, you'll be one step
in proving to your kids that they can be trusted and that YOU can be trusted.
My husband just got a birthday present. We helped him get some very very cheap
musical equipment. A parent put them up for sale to punish his kid for smoking
pot. We went back and forth on whether we wanted any part in that, but the
price was something we could afford right now and so far from what something
like that would go for, even used. The kid wasn't home and didn't know what he
was going home to. I'm sure it was yucky.
Here's the thing, that kid isn't going to learn that smoking pot is bad and
change his behavior. He's going to learn that his parents are mean and
vindictive, that they have no understanding, that they are inflexible, not to be
trusted, and people that aren't to be relied on as a soft landing when things
get hard. Kids make mistakes. People make mistakes.
When you make a mistake in your relationship, how do you want your husband to
respond to it? Do you want him to take away your phone privilege, or tell you
that you can't go out for coffee with your best girl friend because you
neglected to do the dishes and cook dinner? I'm not even saying that those
things are mistakes in a relationship, but if it's what you usually do and if
it's expected and you don't do it, it could feel that way. It would be
manipulative and controlling, the same thing that you are trying to do to your
kids to get them to do what you want them to do.
When I look into these kinds of relationships, where the parents are punitive
and inflexible, and/or controlling and manipulative, the most immediate thing
that I notice that can change is for a parent to take the time to listen, even
when the child is angry and disrespectful. Listen. Don't react, just listen,
and hear the words that are being said behind the emotions. Take that to heart.
Those strong emotions are there because the child feels disrespected deeply and
wounded from your actions and inactions. THAT is really really hard to hear,
but hearing it could very well be the thing that changes everything.
The next time one of your girls is angry or rebellious or disrespectful towards
you, take a deep breath and listen and then ask them for a remedy to the
situation. Ask them how they want it to be different. Then DO that. Actions
speak so much louder than words, even apologies. Apologies mean nothing without
action. Undoing damage will take time and continuous action on your part to do
better. The onus is on you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Susan,
I'm 45 and I don't live with my parents. They are 20 minutes away and
we don't see each other much. We have a 7 year old boy. I would LUV
for my parents to loosen up a bit, be less stern and forbidding and
just genuinely smile from joy instead of mirthlessly with predictions
of doom. From my standpoint, it would be a bit regretful that it
hadn't happened sooner but I would so love and enjoy just being able
to relax around them rather than keep my guard up. It would be nice.
They've mellowed very little over the years but I'm glad for even that
much. :)
The more you're able to relax and communicate how much you like your
kids, the better I think.
~Katherine
I'm 45 and I don't live with my parents. They are 20 minutes away and
we don't see each other much. We have a 7 year old boy. I would LUV
for my parents to loosen up a bit, be less stern and forbidding and
just genuinely smile from joy instead of mirthlessly with predictions
of doom. From my standpoint, it would be a bit regretful that it
hadn't happened sooner but I would so love and enjoy just being able
to relax around them rather than keep my guard up. It would be nice.
They've mellowed very little over the years but I'm glad for even that
much. :)
The more you're able to relax and communicate how much you like your
kids, the better I think.
~Katherine
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Susan Steynberg <suzisword@...> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I hope im on the right topic, ive been reading and pouring over all the
> discussions and going to Sandra's articals and have had a HUGE MIND
> CHANGE.... wow i see clearly now, but i feel it is too late for my girls,
> 12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating cellphone
> use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think, how to
> behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
> them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
> in our eyes...
>
> i have been making a shift, free tv watching, 2min noodles for breakfast,
> YES more, apoligizes to them, told them i was wrong, etc etc...... but now
> that they are inclined to do what we fear, how do we let go and trust when
> the damage was done????? they have become rigid like me. i have the words by
> Pam " it only takes a second to do better" written on my wall but i feel
> that the knots r so tight feel a bit overwhelmed with the huge damage i have
> caused, they (girls) have started with controlling their brother 5yrs and
> it's a struggle to get them to back off their brother. they doing to Him
> what i did to them....
>
> i need some DAMAGE UNDO, advise, please. Also mtyhusband is still not seeing
> it yet fully, he thinks, "Let just put more restrictions and punish them if
> the do wrong" theory.
>
> Thank you so much for all the work u guys are doing with liberating parents
> and kids, we need this kind of parenting in South Africa...... who knows
> maybe i invite Sandra to come hold an unschooling\ parenting confrence...
>
> Susan Steynberg South Africa
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 7/11/2010 4:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>> > It's a hard question to call a 92 year old guy and ask.
>> > Maybe I could ask Keith's brother, who has a girlfriend he lives with,
>> > whether the "under their roof" rule has softened since the 1970's when
>> > they first made me and Keith sleep apart.
>>
>> I'm thinking I'd suggest to my kids that the 92 year old man might be
>> more comfy if they assume they're not sleeping together in his house
>> unless he specifically puts them in the same room. Let him take the lead.
>>
>> -pam
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Susan Steynberg
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
lylaw
you've gotten lots of links and good info - I just wanted to add that it's NOT too late. my daughter is 15 and we didn't start unschooling until she was 13 and things were very very rocky between us for a while. things are amazing now. truly - it's not too late. it will be HARDER because it's further along, and there will be more issues to overcome, but every little bit of kindness and connection will go a long way.
lyla
lyla
> Hi All[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> I hope im on the right topic, ive been reading and pouring over all the
> discussions and going to Sandra's articals and have had a HUGE MIND
> CHANGE.... wow i see clearly now, but i feel it is too late for my girls,
> 12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating cellphone
> use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think, how to
> behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
> them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
> in our eyes...
Susan Steynberg
Hi All
ive just found this post, i was searching for the replys to my questions. i
found it in my sentbox.Thank you for the links and the answers. i feel like
im getting a do over with my son, but it feels overwhelming with the girls.
i have a really negative thought pattern when it gets to the girls and i
have alot of guilt cuz im surposed to love being with my girls but i dont. i
was away for a day and riding back i realised how i hated going home to
them. how do i love being with them???? do i have to fake it until i feel
it??? is something seriously wrong with me or are we just going through a
rough patch. ( i love to spend time with my son 5yrs)
I have tried the "thinking positive thoughts" meditation but it seems my
expectations are high for my girls because we homeschool and my family
expect more from them. would hipnosis help me or should we go for family
counceling? the "experts her in South Africa are a bit conservative and
textbookish. i know im the problem and need help to get over it. we also
live in a small town, so dont have much options
we are doing alot of movie watch to connect, but the guilt of TV watching
during the day is something fierce..not to mention the "schoolwork' we dont
have much of a social life as everybody is in school during the week and
weekends is family, so we are a bit desprete for freinds.
please send somemore links on teen girls and natural learning links...
thank you Susan Steynberg
ive just found this post, i was searching for the replys to my questions. i
found it in my sentbox.Thank you for the links and the answers. i feel like
im getting a do over with my son, but it feels overwhelming with the girls.
i have a really negative thought pattern when it gets to the girls and i
have alot of guilt cuz im surposed to love being with my girls but i dont. i
was away for a day and riding back i realised how i hated going home to
them. how do i love being with them???? do i have to fake it until i feel
it??? is something seriously wrong with me or are we just going through a
rough patch. ( i love to spend time with my son 5yrs)
I have tried the "thinking positive thoughts" meditation but it seems my
expectations are high for my girls because we homeschool and my family
expect more from them. would hipnosis help me or should we go for family
counceling? the "experts her in South Africa are a bit conservative and
textbookish. i know im the problem and need help to get over it. we also
live in a small town, so dont have much options
we are doing alot of movie watch to connect, but the guilt of TV watching
during the day is something fierce..not to mention the "schoolwork' we dont
have much of a social life as everybody is in school during the week and
weekends is family, so we are a bit desprete for freinds.
please send somemore links on teen girls and natural learning links...
thank you Susan Steynberg
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:15 PM, lylaw <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
>
> you've gotten lots of links and good info - I just wanted to add that it's
> NOT too late. my daughter is 15 and we didn't start unschooling until she
> was 13 and things were very very rocky between us for a while. things are
> amazing now. truly - it's not too late. it will be HARDER because it's
> further along, and there will be more issues to overcome, but every little
> bit of kindness and connection will go a long way.
> lyla
>
>
> > Hi All
> >
> > I hope im on the right topic, ive been reading and pouring over all the
> > discussions and going to Sandra's articals and have had a HUGE MIND
> > CHANGE.... wow i see clearly now, but i feel it is too late for my girls,
> > 12 and 14 ive done all the control,food, tv games,eating,dating cellphone
> > use,when they eat, where they eat, when to go to bed, how to think, how
> to
> > behave, and i see resentment and rebellion in them. i have disrespected
> > them, never trusted them, shamed them when they did (wrong.)
> > in our eyes...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Susan Steynberg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I have tried the "thinking positive thoughts" meditation but it seems my
expectations are high for my girls because we homeschool and my family
expect more from them.***
Can you stop having extra expectations on the girls? Perhaps instead of
thinking positive thoughts, in a general sense, think something positive about
each of your kids. Teen girls can be emotional and needy. When I'm feeling
overwhelmed by that, it helps for me to re frame the way that I'm seeing things.
I take a huge deep breath and turn towards something different, something
pleasant, then I think as many positive things about my girl, so that when I
turn to face her, I'm seeing her as those things instead of the negative
intensity that I'd just felt. I'll tell a joke or ask a question and then let
her talk so that I can listen, and while that's happening, I'll do something for
her like make her a snack or pick up her room or find something funny online to
show her. About half an hour later, she's no longer feeling emotional and
needy, and I'm no longer annoyed by it!
It doesn't take but a moment to change the whole atmosphere around me. It only
takes a moment to reconnect and find something joyful. In fact, it takes far
more time to walk away and be upset about it.
***We are doing alot of movie watch to connect, but the guilt of TV watching
during the day is something fierce..not to mention the "schoolwork' we dont
have much of a social life as everybody is in school during the week and
weekends is family, so we are a bit desprete for freinds.***
Why is there guilt watching TV during the day? Does it have to be TV, can it be
movies online or youtube videos? What about music videos, or music sharing?
Not knowing the laws in South Africa, why are you doing schoolwork? Is it
something that needs to happen? Is it open and flexible? Can movies be a part
of the schoolwork? Does the weekend have to be family? Can the girls find
friends to include in family? That would make it really difficult to have a
social life as a teen, if weekends were out. My oldest has several friends that
she loves to spend time with. The ONLY way that we were able to make it happen
was to be hugely flexible about when we were available. Since her friends
mostly go to school, and have homework and other obligations, it helped that we
could work around their schedules with our flexible one. If weekends were out,
she wouldn't have many friends, honestly, and not because her friends didn't
like her or want to spend time with her, but because for school kids, weekends
ARE the time they can hang out and do things.
Desperation isn't good for unschooling. If the girls are desperate for friends,
then make it happen. Open the weekend if you need to. Once the girls are
feeling less desperate, you may find that you like them more, they'll be more
joyful. They'll come home and tell you fun stories and you'll get to meet
interesting kids and they'll be able to share different food ideas and different
music and movies and all sorts of cool things like that. That's what happens
when you meet new people, they bring newness and ideas into your lives. It's
especially important for teenagers to experience that if that is what they want.
Some teens don't care too much about all that, but if you have ones that do, it
can make the difference between peace and joy in your house, or resentment and
unhappiness with a potential of the kids going to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
expectations are high for my girls because we homeschool and my family
expect more from them.***
Can you stop having extra expectations on the girls? Perhaps instead of
thinking positive thoughts, in a general sense, think something positive about
each of your kids. Teen girls can be emotional and needy. When I'm feeling
overwhelmed by that, it helps for me to re frame the way that I'm seeing things.
I take a huge deep breath and turn towards something different, something
pleasant, then I think as many positive things about my girl, so that when I
turn to face her, I'm seeing her as those things instead of the negative
intensity that I'd just felt. I'll tell a joke or ask a question and then let
her talk so that I can listen, and while that's happening, I'll do something for
her like make her a snack or pick up her room or find something funny online to
show her. About half an hour later, she's no longer feeling emotional and
needy, and I'm no longer annoyed by it!
It doesn't take but a moment to change the whole atmosphere around me. It only
takes a moment to reconnect and find something joyful. In fact, it takes far
more time to walk away and be upset about it.
***We are doing alot of movie watch to connect, but the guilt of TV watching
during the day is something fierce..not to mention the "schoolwork' we dont
have much of a social life as everybody is in school during the week and
weekends is family, so we are a bit desprete for freinds.***
Why is there guilt watching TV during the day? Does it have to be TV, can it be
movies online or youtube videos? What about music videos, or music sharing?
Not knowing the laws in South Africa, why are you doing schoolwork? Is it
something that needs to happen? Is it open and flexible? Can movies be a part
of the schoolwork? Does the weekend have to be family? Can the girls find
friends to include in family? That would make it really difficult to have a
social life as a teen, if weekends were out. My oldest has several friends that
she loves to spend time with. The ONLY way that we were able to make it happen
was to be hugely flexible about when we were available. Since her friends
mostly go to school, and have homework and other obligations, it helped that we
could work around their schedules with our flexible one. If weekends were out,
she wouldn't have many friends, honestly, and not because her friends didn't
like her or want to spend time with her, but because for school kids, weekends
ARE the time they can hang out and do things.
Desperation isn't good for unschooling. If the girls are desperate for friends,
then make it happen. Open the weekend if you need to. Once the girls are
feeling less desperate, you may find that you like them more, they'll be more
joyful. They'll come home and tell you fun stories and you'll get to meet
interesting kids and they'll be able to share different food ideas and different
music and movies and all sorts of cool things like that. That's what happens
when you meet new people, they bring newness and ideas into your lives. It's
especially important for teenagers to experience that if that is what they want.
Some teens don't care too much about all that, but if you have ones that do, it
can make the difference between peace and joy in your house, or resentment and
unhappiness with a potential of the kids going to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 23, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Susan Steynberg wrote:
Otherwise faking it is just faking it.
down the negative thoughts and cover them with "right" thinking.
That's works as well as painting over rotten wood.
The effective way is to determinedly turn away from negative thoughts.
Recognize they aren't good for relationships. Recognize to build
relationships you need to focus on the good. Each time you have a
negative thought, think of *specific* things you love, like or admire
about your daughters. Don't just paint over negative thoughts with
vague generic good thoughts. Replace them with real, positive thoughts.
Negative thoughts are like ruts in the road. Despite good solid road,
the wheels tend to fall into them, making them deeper. To keep them
from getting deeper, to help them fill in, you need to physically pull
your thoughts out of them and give them good solid road to travel on.
The more you do that, the more
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> do i have to fake it until i feel it???Faking it is only useful if someone's actively working to change.
Otherwise faking it is just faking it.
> I have tried the "thinking positive thoughts" meditatioI suspect most people's idea of thinking positive thoughts is to stuff
down the negative thoughts and cover them with "right" thinking.
That's works as well as painting over rotten wood.
The effective way is to determinedly turn away from negative thoughts.
Recognize they aren't good for relationships. Recognize to build
relationships you need to focus on the good. Each time you have a
negative thought, think of *specific* things you love, like or admire
about your daughters. Don't just paint over negative thoughts with
vague generic good thoughts. Replace them with real, positive thoughts.
Negative thoughts are like ruts in the road. Despite good solid road,
the wheels tend to fall into them, making them deeper. To keep them
from getting deeper, to help them fill in, you need to physically pull
your thoughts out of them and give them good solid road to travel on.
The more you do that, the more
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Negative thoughts are like ruts in the road. Despite good solid road,
the wheels tend to fall into them, making them deeper. To keep them
from getting deeper, to help them fill in, you need to physically pull
your thoughts out of them and give them good solid road to travel on.
The more you do that, the more-=-
The more...
?
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
http://sandradodd.com/being
(I don't know the end of Joyce's sentence, but I know some links by
heart that might help with overcoming negativity.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the wheels tend to fall into them, making them deeper. To keep them
from getting deeper, to help them fill in, you need to physically pull
your thoughts out of them and give them good solid road to travel on.
The more you do that, the more-=-
The more...
?
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
http://sandradodd.com/being
(I don't know the end of Joyce's sentence, but I know some links by
heart that might help with overcoming negativity.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]