intro and questions
thebabywoman
Hi everyone! I am new to this list, as of about 2 weeks or so. I have been soaking up all I can read online, and trying to keep up with the posts that interest me. I feel like I am on the verge of an amazing journey.
Some background info...I have 6 girls, ages 19 down to 5. We have always homeschooled. In the beginning, we did things that interested the kids, unit studies that they chose, which led into all kinds of side line learning. I never had them write unless there was a reason to write...we had just done or gone somewhere exciting, then I asked them to write about it in their journals. Or we wrote to grandparents, etc. As for spelling, I secretly kept a list of words they were misspelling in their letters and journals, and gave them a list from there. I figured the only words they need to spell right are the ones they actually use, not ones some curriculum has chosen for them. So in many ways, it was more personalized, interesting to our children. Math was a curriculum with manipulatives, although I did not buy into getting math for kindergarteners!
Then lo and behold, my oldest started grade 9 and I felt like we had to use textbooks, take all the right courses, get the credits, etc. It was like a fear settled into me that I would fail them if I didn't do things the way the schools did. Of course they also did some volunteer stuff (music...their choice...I'm just the driver). What blew me away was that my oldest started teaching herself sign language online, and asking for books on it for Christmas and birthdays. She taught herself so much in her free time, that I told her she was getting credit for her. Fast forward, she went to take a sign language course at the local college this fall after graduating our homeschool. They told her she had to take 101, 102 before 103. She asked to speak to the instructor and take a test...they said not possible. She ended up enrolling in 101, went to first class, spoke to teacher (deaf) and next class she was tested by teacher and got into 102. Did same thing the next week with 102 instructor, got into 103. Did great in the class.
I look back at this and see how the things she was motivated in, enjoying, had so much more value. That was REAL learning, not the other stuff we tried to do that "needed" to be done. My 17 yo did the same with Spanish the last few years. I am also mad at myself for not focusing on their interests and possibly encouraging them to volunteer places were they could develop or use their interests, so they could gain skills and possibly find out what they really want to do with their lives, or learn what they don't want to do.
I want to unschool, and can see how it can work but just don't know how to jump into it with children who are 15 and 17. If I let them pursue their own interests now, (17 yo doesn't know what she wants to do yet) they could learn and read about all kinds of things, but not delve into anything in depth enough to call it a course. I think I am focusing on the transcript and getting into college, and that is what is getting to me. Anyone out there start unschooling that late in the game, and how did you approach things with your teens?
PS it is a much easier jump going from public school to homeschool than homeschool to unschool - at least that's my perception.
Sorry for the long post.
Some background info...I have 6 girls, ages 19 down to 5. We have always homeschooled. In the beginning, we did things that interested the kids, unit studies that they chose, which led into all kinds of side line learning. I never had them write unless there was a reason to write...we had just done or gone somewhere exciting, then I asked them to write about it in their journals. Or we wrote to grandparents, etc. As for spelling, I secretly kept a list of words they were misspelling in their letters and journals, and gave them a list from there. I figured the only words they need to spell right are the ones they actually use, not ones some curriculum has chosen for them. So in many ways, it was more personalized, interesting to our children. Math was a curriculum with manipulatives, although I did not buy into getting math for kindergarteners!
Then lo and behold, my oldest started grade 9 and I felt like we had to use textbooks, take all the right courses, get the credits, etc. It was like a fear settled into me that I would fail them if I didn't do things the way the schools did. Of course they also did some volunteer stuff (music...their choice...I'm just the driver). What blew me away was that my oldest started teaching herself sign language online, and asking for books on it for Christmas and birthdays. She taught herself so much in her free time, that I told her she was getting credit for her. Fast forward, she went to take a sign language course at the local college this fall after graduating our homeschool. They told her she had to take 101, 102 before 103. She asked to speak to the instructor and take a test...they said not possible. She ended up enrolling in 101, went to first class, spoke to teacher (deaf) and next class she was tested by teacher and got into 102. Did same thing the next week with 102 instructor, got into 103. Did great in the class.
I look back at this and see how the things she was motivated in, enjoying, had so much more value. That was REAL learning, not the other stuff we tried to do that "needed" to be done. My 17 yo did the same with Spanish the last few years. I am also mad at myself for not focusing on their interests and possibly encouraging them to volunteer places were they could develop or use their interests, so they could gain skills and possibly find out what they really want to do with their lives, or learn what they don't want to do.
I want to unschool, and can see how it can work but just don't know how to jump into it with children who are 15 and 17. If I let them pursue their own interests now, (17 yo doesn't know what she wants to do yet) they could learn and read about all kinds of things, but not delve into anything in depth enough to call it a course. I think I am focusing on the transcript and getting into college, and that is what is getting to me. Anyone out there start unschooling that late in the game, and how did you approach things with your teens?
PS it is a much easier jump going from public school to homeschool than homeschool to unschool - at least that's my perception.
Sorry for the long post.
Jenny Cyphers
***I want to unschool, and can see how it can work but just don't know how to jump into it with children who are 15 and 17. If I let them pursue their own interests now, (17 yo doesn't know what she wants to do yet) they could learn and read about all kinds of things, but not delve into anything in depth enough to call it a course. I think I am focusing on the transcript and getting into college, and that is what is getting to me. Anyone out there start unschooling that late in the game, and how did you approach things with your teens?***
Do they want to go to college? What DO they want to do right now? What are their interests? Learning doesn't need to be a course, it's more expansive than that.
My daughter has a friend whose parent sees the world in this way; education=school=success. While, you've decided to not have the school part, as in the physical building, you are perpetuating that idea that education=school. In the absence of school, an education is about learning and knowledge. School, not even college, equates success.
Help your kids find something that they enjoy doing and then find a way to do more of that. Just like when your daughter learned sign language. You could have found a deaf community, or volunteer work that involved that skill to help use and build it.
If you need help with the 17 and 15 yr old, let us know the answers to the above and maybe we can brainstorm ways to see what they are doing, differently, or ways to add to it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do they want to go to college? What DO they want to do right now? What are their interests? Learning doesn't need to be a course, it's more expansive than that.
My daughter has a friend whose parent sees the world in this way; education=school=success. While, you've decided to not have the school part, as in the physical building, you are perpetuating that idea that education=school. In the absence of school, an education is about learning and knowledge. School, not even college, equates success.
Help your kids find something that they enjoy doing and then find a way to do more of that. Just like when your daughter learned sign language. You could have found a deaf community, or volunteer work that involved that skill to help use and build it.
If you need help with the 17 and 15 yr old, let us know the answers to the above and maybe we can brainstorm ways to see what they are doing, differently, or ways to add to it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Get a copy of The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn. Your
library may have a copy. You read it yourself & let your girls read it if
they are interested. In addition, you might want to check out Grace's Not
Back to School Camp for teens. My daughter is 11 & is already awaiting her
13th birthday so she can go to that camp <g>. http://nbtsc.org/
heather
library may have a copy. You read it yourself & let your girls read it if
they are interested. In addition, you might want to check out Grace's Not
Back to School Camp for teens. My daughter is 11 & is already awaiting her
13th birthday so she can go to that camp <g>. http://nbtsc.org/
heather
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>
> ***I want to unschool, and can see how it can work but just don't know how
> to jump into it with children who are 15 and 17.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Here's another thing you could look into: http://www.blakeboles.com/
~Katherine
~Katherine
On 6/6/10, thebabywoman <shelldan@...> wrote:
> Hi everyone! I am new to this list, as of about 2 weeks or so. I have been
> soaking up all I can read online, and trying to keep up with the posts that
> interest me. I feel like I am on the verge of an amazing journey.
>
> Some background info...I have 6 girls, ages 19 down to 5. We have always
> homeschooled. In the beginning, we did things that interested the kids,
> unit studies that they chose, which led into all kinds of side line
> learning. I never had them write unless there was a reason to write...we
> had just done or gone somewhere exciting, then I asked them to write about
> it in their journals. Or we wrote to grandparents, etc. As for spelling, I
> secretly kept a list of words they were misspelling in their letters and
> journals, and gave them a list from there. I figured the only words they
> need to spell right are the ones they actually use, not ones some curriculum
> has chosen for them. So in many ways, it was more personalized, interesting
> to our children. Math was a curriculum with manipulatives, although I did
> not buy into getting math for kindergarteners!
>
> Then lo and behold, my oldest started grade 9 and I felt like we had to use
> textbooks, take all the right courses, get the credits, etc. It was like a
> fear settled into me that I would fail them if I didn't do things the way
> the schools did. Of course they also did some volunteer stuff
> (music...their choice...I'm just the driver). What blew me away was that my
> oldest started teaching herself sign language online, and asking for books
> on it for Christmas and birthdays. She taught herself so much in her free
> time, that I told her she was getting credit for her. Fast forward, she
> went to take a sign language course at the local college this fall after
> graduating our homeschool. They told her she had to take 101, 102 before
> 103. She asked to speak to the instructor and take a test...they said not
> possible. She ended up enrolling in 101, went to first class, spoke to
> teacher (deaf) and next class she was tested by teacher and got into 102.
> Did same thing the next week with 102 instructor, got into 103. Did great
> in the class.
>
> I look back at this and see how the things she was motivated in, enjoying,
> had so much more value. That was REAL learning, not the other stuff we
> tried to do that "needed" to be done. My 17 yo did the same with Spanish the
> last few years. I am also mad at myself for not focusing on their interests
> and possibly encouraging them to volunteer places were they could develop or
> use their interests, so they could gain skills and possibly find out what
> they really want to do with their lives, or learn what they don't want to
> do.
>
> I want to unschool, and can see how it can work but just don't know how to
> jump into it with children who are 15 and 17. If I let them pursue their
> own interests now, (17 yo doesn't know what she wants to do yet) they could
> learn and read about all kinds of things, but not delve into anything in
> depth enough to call it a course. I think I am focusing on the transcript
> and getting into college, and that is what is getting to me. Anyone out
> there start unschooling that late in the game, and how did you approach
> things with your teens?
>
> PS it is a much easier jump going from public school to homeschool than
> homeschool to unschool - at least that's my perception.
>
> Sorry for the long post.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- it is a much easier jump going from public school to homeschool
than homeschool to unschool - at least that's my perception.-=-
I think that's true.
-=- What blew me away was that my oldest started teaching herself sign
language online, and asking for books on it for Christmas and
birthdays. She taught herself so much in her free time, that I told
her she was getting credit for her. Fast forward, she went to take a-=-
If you can make the small tweak from thinking of this (and expressing
it) as "teaching herself" and "taught herself" and "free time," and
change it to "learned" and "learned," unschooling will come into focus.
-=-They told her she had to take 101, 102 before 103. She asked to
speak to the instructor and take a test...they said not possible. She
ended up enrolling in 101, went to first class, spoke to teacher
(deaf) and next class she was tested by teacher and got into 102. Did
same thing the next week with 102 instructor, got into 103. Did great
in the class.-=-
Might it be possible for her to test in such a way that she gets
academic credit for those earlier classes? Or maybe she could
volunteer to help other students, and take those concurrently with
more difficult classes, and get the credit. If she's working on a
degree, credit is... you know.... credit. :-)
-=-Anyone out there start unschooling that late in the game, and how
did you approach things with your teens?-=-
http://sandradodd.com/teen/latertounschooling
Some accounts of teens who were in school and transitioned to
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
than homeschool to unschool - at least that's my perception.-=-
I think that's true.
-=- What blew me away was that my oldest started teaching herself sign
language online, and asking for books on it for Christmas and
birthdays. She taught herself so much in her free time, that I told
her she was getting credit for her. Fast forward, she went to take a-=-
If you can make the small tweak from thinking of this (and expressing
it) as "teaching herself" and "taught herself" and "free time," and
change it to "learned" and "learned," unschooling will come into focus.
-=-They told her she had to take 101, 102 before 103. She asked to
speak to the instructor and take a test...they said not possible. She
ended up enrolling in 101, went to first class, spoke to teacher
(deaf) and next class she was tested by teacher and got into 102. Did
same thing the next week with 102 instructor, got into 103. Did great
in the class.-=-
Might it be possible for her to test in such a way that she gets
academic credit for those earlier classes? Or maybe she could
volunteer to help other students, and take those concurrently with
more difficult classes, and get the credit. If she's working on a
degree, credit is... you know.... credit. :-)
-=-Anyone out there start unschooling that late in the game, and how
did you approach things with your teens?-=-
http://sandradodd.com/teen/latertounschooling
Some accounts of teens who were in school and transitioned to
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thebabywoman
Thank you to all who responded to my questions. You guys all seem so much farther along the path than I. It helps to have some perspective.
I did locate Grace Llewelyn's book (more recent one) at the public library. It never occurred to me that they would carry it, although I have looked for homeschooling books there often. I'm looking forward to it. I have read a bit of John Holt...Teach Your Own, and How Children Learn.
I realize I have a long way to go regarding the mental switch from homeschool to unschool. Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed that homeschool to unschool was more difficult than a switch from public school to unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's because public school to homeschool you think you can do better than them. Homeschool to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or as well as the public schools. Does that make sense?
As for my sign language daughter, she is the graduated one, and is working in a daycare full-time, and will be volunteering at a camp where deaf children will attend for one week this summer. Another week she will be at sign language immersion camp. I am not worried about her. She arranged all this on her own, seeking out a camp that would be in need of a signing staff member, etc.
It is the younger two who I am worried about. (I'll just focus on the 17 yo)The 17 yo is not sure what she wants to do, and I think after all these years of using curriculum, she feels like she will be "flailing" without it. She is interested in geography-not landforms and such...she likes to know the cultures and interesting facts about the people and places (I don't know how much she would delve into this, but has shown great interest in the past). She would like to volunteer walking dogs. She has been compiling a book for a friend that has quotes in it, categorized by subject (her friend can use that for card making and scrapbooking). She is trying to arrange a teen soccer club for next year. She likes reading classic books, and spends time learning Spanish, although not as passionately as a few years ago. As for curriculum, she told me she would like to do consumer math next year...we have that on the shelf
I guess this comes out sounding pretty well-rounded, but I am stuck on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit? I think it's partly as parents, you want to give your child every opportunity to succeed in what they choose for their life, and I don't want to mess things up for her.
Suggestions about unschoolers camps or retreats are not going to fly here. We are not financially able to send them away this year. I don't even know if there are any unschoolers in my city. There ought to be. I should check that out.
Thanks again for listening and advising! I appreciate it!
I did locate Grace Llewelyn's book (more recent one) at the public library. It never occurred to me that they would carry it, although I have looked for homeschooling books there often. I'm looking forward to it. I have read a bit of John Holt...Teach Your Own, and How Children Learn.
I realize I have a long way to go regarding the mental switch from homeschool to unschool. Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed that homeschool to unschool was more difficult than a switch from public school to unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's because public school to homeschool you think you can do better than them. Homeschool to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or as well as the public schools. Does that make sense?
As for my sign language daughter, she is the graduated one, and is working in a daycare full-time, and will be volunteering at a camp where deaf children will attend for one week this summer. Another week she will be at sign language immersion camp. I am not worried about her. She arranged all this on her own, seeking out a camp that would be in need of a signing staff member, etc.
It is the younger two who I am worried about. (I'll just focus on the 17 yo)The 17 yo is not sure what she wants to do, and I think after all these years of using curriculum, she feels like she will be "flailing" without it. She is interested in geography-not landforms and such...she likes to know the cultures and interesting facts about the people and places (I don't know how much she would delve into this, but has shown great interest in the past). She would like to volunteer walking dogs. She has been compiling a book for a friend that has quotes in it, categorized by subject (her friend can use that for card making and scrapbooking). She is trying to arrange a teen soccer club for next year. She likes reading classic books, and spends time learning Spanish, although not as passionately as a few years ago. As for curriculum, she told me she would like to do consumer math next year...we have that on the shelf
I guess this comes out sounding pretty well-rounded, but I am stuck on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit? I think it's partly as parents, you want to give your child every opportunity to succeed in what they choose for their life, and I don't want to mess things up for her.
Suggestions about unschoolers camps or retreats are not going to fly here. We are not financially able to send them away this year. I don't even know if there are any unschoolers in my city. There ought to be. I should check that out.
Thanks again for listening and advising! I appreciate it!
wtexans
===I am stuck on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for college after grade 12.===
It sounds as if her life is already wonderfully full, full of things she enjoys rather than things she "should" be doing.
If she hasn't expressed an interest in college, or at least in college right now, take a deep breath and step away from that "what if" worry.
If college becomes an interest further down the road, there are some good ideas here: http://sandradodd.com/teen/college.html.
Grace Llewelyn's book was the first unschooling-type book I read many years ago and I loved it. If you're a fairly quick reader, you may want to give it a quick read before you pass it along to your daughters.
Glenda
It sounds as if her life is already wonderfully full, full of things she enjoys rather than things she "should" be doing.
If she hasn't expressed an interest in college, or at least in college right now, take a deep breath and step away from that "what if" worry.
If college becomes an interest further down the road, there are some good ideas here: http://sandradodd.com/teen/college.html.
Grace Llewelyn's book was the first unschooling-type book I read many years ago and I loved it. If you're a fairly quick reader, you may want to give it a quick read before you pass it along to your daughters.
Glenda
Chris Sanders
You don't have to earn credits or account for hours or present a
transcript to get into all colleges. My unschooled son started taking
a few community college courses and is now a full-time student. He'll
transfer to a state university for his junior and senior years -- no
high school transcript, no ACT or SAT, no GED.
Don't let school-think rule your life. It's not grade 12 when you're
unschooling. It's life.
Chris in IA
transcript to get into all colleges. My unschooled son started taking
a few community college courses and is now a full-time student. He'll
transfer to a state university for his junior and senior years -- no
high school transcript, no ACT or SAT, no GED.
Don't let school-think rule your life. It's not grade 12 when you're
unschooling. It's life.
Chris in IA
On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:56 PM, thebabywoman wrote:
> I guess this comes out sounding pretty well-rounded, but I am stuck
> on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and
> getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for
> college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their hours
> to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I make a
> transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==It is the younger two who I am worried about. (I'll just focus on the 17 yo)The 17 yo is not sure what she wants to do, and I think after all these years of using curriculum, she feels like she will be "flailing" without it. She is interested in geography-not landforms and such...she likes to know the cultures and interesting facts about the people and places (I don't know how much she would delve into this, but has shown great interest in the past). She would like to volunteer walking dogs. She has been compiling a book for a friend that has quotes in it, categorized by subject (her friend can use that for card making and scrapbooking). She is trying to arrange a teen soccer club for next year. She likes reading classic books, and spends time learning Spanish, although not as passionately as a few years ago. As for curriculum, she told me she would like to do consumer math next year...we have that on the shelf==
It sounds to me like she is doing a lot. I'm not sure why she needs a consumer math curriculum. Wouldn't she learn that just by being a consumer?
== I am stuck on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit? ==
Are you sure they need a transcript like that to go to college? It's been a long time since I applied to a 4-year college and things have changed a lot. I don't remember ever hearing about homeschooling and homeschoolers back then. Now there are lots of homeschoolers going to college and many colleges are accepting alternative application information. If they attend community college they may not need transcripts at all. My son took some community college classes this past year and all he had to do was take placement tests. I wonder if the transcripts are to show credit or just to show that the person has graduated from high school? Even though my transcript showed that I had taken trig in high school, I still had to take a math placement test. I'm pretty sure I had to take an English placement test, too.
If you are concerned about having to write up a transcript, I'd start with just keeping a journal of all the things they do. I would think that as time passes and you get more and more things in your journal, how to assign credit (if that's needed) would become apparent.
Alysia
It sounds to me like she is doing a lot. I'm not sure why she needs a consumer math curriculum. Wouldn't she learn that just by being a consumer?
== I am stuck on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript, and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit? ==
Are you sure they need a transcript like that to go to college? It's been a long time since I applied to a 4-year college and things have changed a lot. I don't remember ever hearing about homeschooling and homeschoolers back then. Now there are lots of homeschoolers going to college and many colleges are accepting alternative application information. If they attend community college they may not need transcripts at all. My son took some community college classes this past year and all he had to do was take placement tests. I wonder if the transcripts are to show credit or just to show that the person has graduated from high school? Even though my transcript showed that I had taken trig in high school, I still had to take a math placement test. I'm pretty sure I had to take an English placement test, too.
If you are concerned about having to write up a transcript, I'd start with just keeping a journal of all the things they do. I would think that as time passes and you get more and more things in your journal, how to assign credit (if that's needed) would become apparent.
Alysia
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/9/2010 9:56 PM, thebabywoman wrote:
the underlying premises about how children learn are the same.
Unschoolers are doing something completely different with a completely
different understanding of how children learn.
It is because homeschooling, like classroom schooling, assumes that
children need to be told what to learn, when to learn it, and how to
learn it. Homeschooling puts the emphasis on teaching, just like
classroom schools. It is "schooling."
Unschooling recognizes that children learn just the same way fish swim
and birds fly. It is a given. It is in their nature. Teachers don't make
it happen.
Unschoolers put the emphasis on providing an interesting and supportive
environment so that our children have the opportunity to learn a lot,
but we know that the learning is theirs, not ours.
Letting go of the idea that we can make them learn is what makes
unschooling so difficult. Once you really get that, once it has really
sunk in and you know it is true, deciding to unschool isn't hard at all.
It is the only thing to do that makes any sense.
Part of what schools do is provide an environment where kids can be
exposed to all kinds of interesting things. And sometimes there are even
supportive people around who help a kid pursue his or her own interests.
To that extent, schools work just like unschooling and THAT is the part
of going to school that some of us actually liked and appreciated and
found valuable.
But a lot of what schools do is not conducive to learning - in fact, it
has severely negative, counterproductive, impacts on learning. It is
coercive, boring, confusing. Children are ridiculed and shamed. They are
graded and tested. They learn not to trust themselves and their own
learning nature. They learn, as Frank Smith says, that learning is hard.
They learn, as John Gatto says, that what interests them isn't important
and they lose touch with themselves. (Think about how many young people
come out of school feeling like they need to "find themselves.")
Making the shift to unschooling means lifting a veil that is hanging
before our eyes. It is made up of all our false beliefs about how
children learn. For some people, that veil is just blown right off as
soon as they are exposed to unschooling ideas. Some people peak out from
behind it, some very very slowly remove it, and others yank it off all
at once. For some, removing that veil is really hard. But when the veil
is gone, choosing to unschool is not at all hard, it is logical and
sensible and natural. The best way to lift the veil is to read and talk
and converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
observe your own children and how they learn best. That's what it is all
based on, and understanding that is what will make shifting to
unschooling easy.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>It is because homeschoolers are trying to do the same thing schools do -
> I realize I have a long way to go regarding the mental switch from
> homeschool to unschool. Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed
> that homeschool to unschool was more difficult than a switch from
> public school to unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's
> because public school to homeschool you think you can do better than
> them. Homeschool to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or
> as well as the public schools. Does that make sense?
the underlying premises about how children learn are the same.
Unschoolers are doing something completely different with a completely
different understanding of how children learn.
It is because homeschooling, like classroom schooling, assumes that
children need to be told what to learn, when to learn it, and how to
learn it. Homeschooling puts the emphasis on teaching, just like
classroom schools. It is "schooling."
Unschooling recognizes that children learn just the same way fish swim
and birds fly. It is a given. It is in their nature. Teachers don't make
it happen.
Unschoolers put the emphasis on providing an interesting and supportive
environment so that our children have the opportunity to learn a lot,
but we know that the learning is theirs, not ours.
Letting go of the idea that we can make them learn is what makes
unschooling so difficult. Once you really get that, once it has really
sunk in and you know it is true, deciding to unschool isn't hard at all.
It is the only thing to do that makes any sense.
Part of what schools do is provide an environment where kids can be
exposed to all kinds of interesting things. And sometimes there are even
supportive people around who help a kid pursue his or her own interests.
To that extent, schools work just like unschooling and THAT is the part
of going to school that some of us actually liked and appreciated and
found valuable.
But a lot of what schools do is not conducive to learning - in fact, it
has severely negative, counterproductive, impacts on learning. It is
coercive, boring, confusing. Children are ridiculed and shamed. They are
graded and tested. They learn not to trust themselves and their own
learning nature. They learn, as Frank Smith says, that learning is hard.
They learn, as John Gatto says, that what interests them isn't important
and they lose touch with themselves. (Think about how many young people
come out of school feeling like they need to "find themselves.")
Making the shift to unschooling means lifting a veil that is hanging
before our eyes. It is made up of all our false beliefs about how
children learn. For some people, that veil is just blown right off as
soon as they are exposed to unschooling ideas. Some people peak out from
behind it, some very very slowly remove it, and others yank it off all
at once. For some, removing that veil is really hard. But when the veil
is gone, choosing to unschool is not at all hard, it is logical and
sensible and natural. The best way to lift the veil is to read and talk
and converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
observe your own children and how they learn best. That's what it is all
based on, and understanding that is what will make shifting to
unschooling easy.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Pam. This is one of the most straightforward posts on unschooling that I have ever read!
Andrea Q
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On 6/9/2010 9:56 PM, thebabywoman wrote:
> >
> > I realize I have a long way to go regarding the mental switch from
> > homeschool to unschool. Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed
> > that homeschool to unschool was more difficult than a switch from
> > public school to unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's
> > because public school to homeschool you think you can do better than
> > them. Homeschool to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or
> > as well as the public schools. Does that make sense?
>
> It is because homeschoolers are trying to do the same thing schools do -
> the underlying premises about how children learn are the same.
>
> Unschoolers are doing something completely different with a completely
> different understanding of how children learn.
>
> It is because homeschooling, like classroom schooling, assumes that
> children need to be told what to learn, when to learn it, and how to
> learn it. Homeschooling puts the emphasis on teaching, just like
> classroom schools. It is "schooling."
>
> Unschooling recognizes that children learn just the same way fish swim
> and birds fly. It is a given. It is in their nature. Teachers don't make
> it happen.
>
> Unschoolers put the emphasis on providing an interesting and supportive
> environment so that our children have the opportunity to learn a lot,
> but we know that the learning is theirs, not ours.
>
> Letting go of the idea that we can make them learn is what makes
> unschooling so difficult. Once you really get that, once it has really
> sunk in and you know it is true, deciding to unschool isn't hard at all.
> It is the only thing to do that makes any sense.
>
> Part of what schools do is provide an environment where kids can be
> exposed to all kinds of interesting things. And sometimes there are even
> supportive people around who help a kid pursue his or her own interests.
> To that extent, schools work just like unschooling and THAT is the part
> of going to school that some of us actually liked and appreciated and
> found valuable.
>
> But a lot of what schools do is not conducive to learning - in fact, it
> has severely negative, counterproductive, impacts on learning. It is
> coercive, boring, confusing. Children are ridiculed and shamed. They are
> graded and tested. They learn not to trust themselves and their own
> learning nature. They learn, as Frank Smith says, that learning is hard.
> They learn, as John Gatto says, that what interests them isn't important
> and they lose touch with themselves. (Think about how many young people
> come out of school feeling like they need to "find themselves.")
>
> Making the shift to unschooling means lifting a veil that is hanging
> before our eyes. It is made up of all our false beliefs about how
> children learn. For some people, that veil is just blown right off as
> soon as they are exposed to unschooling ideas. Some people peak out from
> behind it, some very very slowly remove it, and others yank it off all
> at once. For some, removing that veil is really hard. But when the veil
> is gone, choosing to unschool is not at all hard, it is logical and
> sensible and natural. The best way to lift the veil is to read and talk
> and converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
> observe your own children and how they learn best. That's what it is all
> based on, and understanding that is what will make shifting to
> unschooling easy.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***I realize I have a long way to go regarding the mental switch from homeschool to unschool. Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed that homeschool to unschool was more difficult than a switch from public school to unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's because public school to homeschool you think you can do better than them. Homeschool to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or as well as the public schools. Does that make sense?***
I think it's because public school and home school are both school, follow a curriculum, lock step, linear path, to get from point A to point Z, don't veer off path and you get to your destination and call yourself done. Unschooling isn't like that at all. There's no curriculum, no lock step, linear path, no point A or even a point Z, and if there were, you could veer off the path at any time. There isn't a final destination, except for the ones that you create for yourself along the way.
***It is the younger two who I am worried about. (I'll just focus on the 17 yo)The 17 yo is not sure what she wants to do, and I think after all these years of using curriculum, she feels like she will be "flailing" without it.***
I get why you want to focus on the 17 yr old, and correct me if I'm wrong... She's about to be 18, that magical age of being "done" and moving out and being an adult. Would it help to think of it as just another birthday? Maybe you could rethink the idea of "being 18" and insert another older age in there as the final age, say 22. Does that make it seem better? If you can accept the idea that all kids grow and learn and mature at different stages and ages, doesn't it make sense to continue on that way, even in young adulthood? Give her more time to find her way. Add more things into her life that you know she'll love. Find a way to help her travel to encourage her love of geography.
***Suggestions about unschoolers camps or retreats are not going to fly here. We are not financially able to send them away this year. ***
Perhaps you could sell all your curriculum on ebay and have enough money to send one or both kids somewhere.
***How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit?***
How do you know they haven't and who gets to decide how much time is enough time? Does the time inside ones own head daydreaming count? How about sitting watching TV with the textbook open on their lap, does that count for hours?
***I think it's partly as parents, you want to give your child every opportunity to succeed in what they choose for their life, and I don't want to mess things up for her.***
Yes, that's really common! Parents who put their kids in school are absolutely SURE that by doing so they aren't going to mess up their kids and if somehow they do get "messed up", it's not their fault, it's the schools, and the schools would blame the kids or the parents. That phrase, "opportunity to succeed" is such a catch phrase. Schools use it all the time, yet what I see, is that they give equal opportunities to fail, because it's not really about giving someone opportunities. Kids succeed when they have the freedom to do so and the knowledge that they can. All the other circumstances can either help or hinder.
The way that unschooling works, is giving a kid freedom to explore opportunities, real ones, it's about fostering that deep inside knowledge within a person that they CAN succeed, it's a sense of really knowing oneself. When I see grown and near to grown unschooled kids, what I find most striking is their sense of self, how they know themselves so well and are able to see the world very clearly because of it. That clarity helps kids see opportunities and take them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it's because public school and home school are both school, follow a curriculum, lock step, linear path, to get from point A to point Z, don't veer off path and you get to your destination and call yourself done. Unschooling isn't like that at all. There's no curriculum, no lock step, linear path, no point A or even a point Z, and if there were, you could veer off the path at any time. There isn't a final destination, except for the ones that you create for yourself along the way.
***It is the younger two who I am worried about. (I'll just focus on the 17 yo)The 17 yo is not sure what she wants to do, and I think after all these years of using curriculum, she feels like she will be "flailing" without it.***
I get why you want to focus on the 17 yr old, and correct me if I'm wrong... She's about to be 18, that magical age of being "done" and moving out and being an adult. Would it help to think of it as just another birthday? Maybe you could rethink the idea of "being 18" and insert another older age in there as the final age, say 22. Does that make it seem better? If you can accept the idea that all kids grow and learn and mature at different stages and ages, doesn't it make sense to continue on that way, even in young adulthood? Give her more time to find her way. Add more things into her life that you know she'll love. Find a way to help her travel to encourage her love of geography.
***Suggestions about unschoolers camps or retreats are not going to fly here. We are not financially able to send them away this year. ***
Perhaps you could sell all your curriculum on ebay and have enough money to send one or both kids somewhere.
***How can I make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a credit?***
How do you know they haven't and who gets to decide how much time is enough time? Does the time inside ones own head daydreaming count? How about sitting watching TV with the textbook open on their lap, does that count for hours?
***I think it's partly as parents, you want to give your child every opportunity to succeed in what they choose for their life, and I don't want to mess things up for her.***
Yes, that's really common! Parents who put their kids in school are absolutely SURE that by doing so they aren't going to mess up their kids and if somehow they do get "messed up", it's not their fault, it's the schools, and the schools would blame the kids or the parents. That phrase, "opportunity to succeed" is such a catch phrase. Schools use it all the time, yet what I see, is that they give equal opportunities to fail, because it's not really about giving someone opportunities. Kids succeed when they have the freedom to do so and the knowledge that they can. All the other circumstances can either help or hinder.
The way that unschooling works, is giving a kid freedom to explore opportunities, real ones, it's about fostering that deep inside knowledge within a person that they CAN succeed, it's a sense of really knowing oneself. When I see grown and near to grown unschooled kids, what I find most striking is their sense of self, how they know themselves so well and are able to see the world very clearly because of it. That clarity helps kids see opportunities and take them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>The best way to lift the veil is to read and talkand converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
observe your own children and how they learn best. That's what it is all
based on, and understanding that is what will make shifting to
unschooling easy.<<<
That's helped me a lot. Also meeting up with other unschoolers was a big
unveiling to me of how it can look in the lives of each family. That and
realizing that it can look different from family to family, and still as
learning and happiness are facilitated, the effect of unschooling on the
people is pretty amazingly similar. Done well, unschooling increases peace
and well being in families and the children are amazing to see.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>I get why you want to focus on the 17 yr old, and correct me if I'mwrong... She's about to be 18, that magical age of being "done" and moving
out and being an adult. Would it help to think of it as just another
birthday? Maybe you could rethink the idea of "being 18" and insert another
older age in there as the final age, say 22. Does that make it seem better?
If you can accept the idea that all kids grow and learn and mature at
different stages and ages, doesn't it make sense to continue on that way,
even in young adulthood?<<<
It's not uncommon for people to leave their parent's home at later ages. I
went to traditional schools all the way through and left at 25.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The best way to lift the veil is to read and talk
and converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
observe your own children and how they learn best.-=-
Pam wrote that.
Last Saturday I was in Montreal and said this:
*Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.*
I said it several times. I think it might be a good new intro to my
website. Reading does nothing without action. Action does nothing
without patience and observation. When you know a little, more of the
readings will make sense. (When you know more and more, the readings
will make more sense.)
Sandra
and converse about the underlying ideas of how children learn and
observe your own children and how they learn best.-=-
Pam wrote that.
Last Saturday I was in Montreal and said this:
*Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.*
I said it several times. I think it might be a good new intro to my
website. Reading does nothing without action. Action does nothing
without patience and observation. When you know a little, more of the
readings will make sense. (When you know more and more, the readings
will make more sense.)
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
http://networkedblogs.com/4exdy
This is Linda Dobson's blog called Parent at the Helm. This post is
somebody else's article and it gives you all kinds of ways to write
ordinary daily activities in terms that might be used by schools. For
example: playing outside is "low organized physical education."
Linda Dobson will be one of the speakers at the HSC conference in
Sacramento in August. Sandra will also be speaking and so will I. This
is a great conference to learn about unschooling and makes a fantastic
vacation for the entire family. I've never been to another conference
that had half so much fun stuff to do. This conference was started by a
bunch of unschoolers exactly 20 years ago!
hscconference.com
-pam
This is Linda Dobson's blog called Parent at the Helm. This post is
somebody else's article and it gives you all kinds of ways to write
ordinary daily activities in terms that might be used by schools. For
example: playing outside is "low organized physical education."
Linda Dobson will be one of the speakers at the HSC conference in
Sacramento in August. Sandra will also be speaking and so will I. This
is a great conference to learn about unschooling and makes a fantastic
vacation for the entire family. I've never been to another conference
that had half so much fun stuff to do. This conference was started by a
bunch of unschoolers exactly 20 years ago!
hscconference.com
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=- I've never been to another conference
that had half so much fun stuff to do.-=-
I agree, and I've been to a lot of conferences.
Pam's link needed some http://
to make it work:
http://hscconference.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that had half so much fun stuff to do.-=-
I agree, and I've been to a lot of conferences.
Pam's link needed some http://
to make it work:
http://hscconference.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thebabywoman
Alysia, I have been getting them to keep a journal of what they do, and the time spent on things. This is tedious. I cannot do it, as there 6 children, and I cannot be on two floors of the house at the same time. I can see how ridiculous this is, because everything then needs to be classified (whether now or later)as a subject. For instance, my daugher 15 yo got some books on kumodo dragons from the library. They are in Indonesia, on the island of kumodo (spelling?)and are ferocious. She was quite interested and said she wanted to write a story about a missionary who went there and ended up being bit by one (they eat humans). She then went to research more on the computer, as she said she needed to know more about the people and culture to write the story. She watched a Nat. Geographic video on the computer. Now she or I would have to classify it all as science, or the writing part as eng, or the nat. geog as geography. It seems so tedious and pointless, yet I admit, I am stuck on the transcripts, courses taken, etc.
I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying, okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas, and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this anyone?
I know it probably sounds ridiculous to you all.
Katherine mentioned not focusing on the magical age 18, and that does help some, although that has always been the focus, so it takes some work and time
Pam, you are right on...gonna print that off and read it every day for awhile.
Sandra, your read, try wait, watch - so simple, but so helpful.
For instance, I have been reading about teaching vs. learning. I have been watching to catch myself reacting from the teaching perspective. My 9yo girl asked me if she could LOOK at some animal books I bought at the March homeschool conference. She asked to LOOK because I had told them they could not read them. I wanted to read them together with the other two littles. (I call the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes). Anyways, I responded this day with, Yes, you can READ them. She looked at me wide eyed and said, I can READ them? Yes, I said, you can read them. She grinned, thanked me and was off to read them. Maybe she might not have understood everything, maybe she skipped some pages or a lot of pages, maybe she only looked at the pictures after all, but I gave her the freedom to learn and use what was here that was interesting to her.
I have also been watching the littles and reflecting on what I have been reading. I have been journalling what I have observed, what has struck me along the way. For instance, my 7yo has an interest in parrots. She has been copying word for word, a book on parrots. She has spent over and hour at a time copying, because it is interesting for her. Now she is not a fluent reader yet, and so it is very tedious for her. She is doing letter by letter for the words she doesn't know how to spell, which is most words. It is incredible to see what she will do when it is her idea, her interest. I haven't seen a child so determined in my life! It's not conventional language arts, but she is learning spelling, punctuation, sentence structure and who knows what else. I am seeing learning in a broader sense now, and finding it quite interesting.
I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying, okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas, and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this anyone?
I know it probably sounds ridiculous to you all.
Katherine mentioned not focusing on the magical age 18, and that does help some, although that has always been the focus, so it takes some work and time
Pam, you are right on...gonna print that off and read it every day for awhile.
Sandra, your read, try wait, watch - so simple, but so helpful.
For instance, I have been reading about teaching vs. learning. I have been watching to catch myself reacting from the teaching perspective. My 9yo girl asked me if she could LOOK at some animal books I bought at the March homeschool conference. She asked to LOOK because I had told them they could not read them. I wanted to read them together with the other two littles. (I call the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes). Anyways, I responded this day with, Yes, you can READ them. She looked at me wide eyed and said, I can READ them? Yes, I said, you can read them. She grinned, thanked me and was off to read them. Maybe she might not have understood everything, maybe she skipped some pages or a lot of pages, maybe she only looked at the pictures after all, but I gave her the freedom to learn and use what was here that was interesting to her.
I have also been watching the littles and reflecting on what I have been reading. I have been journalling what I have observed, what has struck me along the way. For instance, my 7yo has an interest in parrots. She has been copying word for word, a book on parrots. She has spent over and hour at a time copying, because it is interesting for her. Now she is not a fluent reader yet, and so it is very tedious for her. She is doing letter by letter for the words she doesn't know how to spell, which is most words. It is incredible to see what she will do when it is her idea, her interest. I haven't seen a child so determined in my life! It's not conventional language arts, but she is learning spelling, punctuation, sentence structure and who knows what else. I am seeing learning in a broader sense now, and finding it quite interesting.
Robin Bentley
On Jun 11, 2010, at 12:15 PM, thebabywoman wrote:
them, too.
I think you getting unstuck would do you all a world of good.
If a journal is necessary for you to meet your state's requirements,
make it very general. You are surely aware of what your kids are doing
in some way. They shouldn't be responsible for their own record-keeping.
back on this. Sure, you can write these things down for your own self.
But to make it plain to your kids that they need to learn "subjects"
doesn't really allow for natural, connected learning.
Oh, and there's this potential downside to all this observation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm
book she was interested in, I'm glad you said yes. It might be worth
examining your motivation (other than wanting to read the book to them
together) for saying no. Could there be more to it than that?
Here's more on beginnings, with some links you might find helpful.
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
Robin B.
> Alysia, I have been getting them to keep a journal of what they do,Of course, it's tedious and potentially pointless. It's tedious for
> and the time spent on things. This is tedious. I cannot do it, as
> there 6 children, and I cannot be on two floors of the house at the
> same time. I can see how ridiculous this is, because everything
> then needs to be classified (whether now or later)as a subject. For
> instance, my daugher 15 yo got some books on kumodo dragons from
> the library. They are in Indonesia, on the island of kumodo
> (spelling?)and are ferocious. She was quite interested and said
> she wanted to write a story about a missionary who went there and
> ended up being bit by one (they eat humans). She then went to
> research more on the computer, as she said she needed to know more
> about the people and culture to write the story. She watched a
> Nat. Geographic video on the computer. Now she or I would have to
> classify it all as science, or the writing part as eng, or the nat.
> geog as geography. It seems so tedious and pointless, yet I admit,
> I am stuck on the transcripts, courses taken, etc.
them, too.
I think you getting unstuck would do you all a world of good.
If a journal is necessary for you to meet your state's requirements,
make it very general. You are surely aware of what your kids are doing
in some way. They shouldn't be responsible for their own record-keeping.
>Well, unless you are legally bound to do this, I would consider easing
> I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like
> this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying,
> okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not
> worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing,
> not how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain
> areas, and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain
> subjects, or that they need to do more in those subjects. Any
> thoughts on this anyone?
back on this. Sure, you can write these things down for your own self.
But to make it plain to your kids that they need to learn "subjects"
doesn't really allow for natural, connected learning.
Oh, and there's this potential downside to all this observation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_(psychology)
>Um. Well... <g>
> I know it probably sounds ridiculous to you all.
> For instance, I have been reading about teaching vs. learning. IAlthough I don't understand why you would stop a child from reading a
> have been watching to catch myself reacting from the teaching
> perspective. My 9yo girl asked me if she could LOOK at some animal
> books I bought at the March homeschool conference. She asked to
> LOOK because I had told them they could not read them. I wanted to
> read them together with the other two littles. (I call the younger
> three girls the "littles" sometimes). Anyways, I responded this day
> with, Yes, you can READ them. She looked at me wide eyed and said,
> I can READ them? Yes, I said, you can read them. She grinned,
> thanked me and was off to read them. Maybe she might not have
> understood everything, maybe she skipped some pages or a lot of
> pages, maybe she only looked at the pictures after all, but I gave
> her the freedom to learn and use what was here that was interesting
> to her.
book she was interested in, I'm glad you said yes. It might be worth
examining your motivation (other than wanting to read the book to them
together) for saying no. Could there be more to it than that?
> I have also been watching the littles and reflecting on what I haveThat's certainly a beginning!
> been reading. I have been journalling what I have observed, what
> has struck me along the way. For instance, my 7yo has an interest
> in parrots. She has been copying word for word, a book on parrots.
> She has spent over and hour at a time copying, because it is
> interesting for her. Now she is not a fluent reader yet, and so it
> is very tedious for her. She is doing letter by letter for the
> words she doesn't know how to spell, which is most words. It is
> incredible to see what she will do when it is her idea, her
> interest. I haven't seen a child so determined in my life! It's
> not conventional language arts, but she is learning spelling,
> punctuation, sentence structure and who knows what else. I am
> seeing learning in a broader sense now, and finding it quite
> interesting.
Here's more on beginnings, with some links you might find helpful.
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
Robin B.
wtexans
===I have been getting them to keep a journal of what they do, and the time spent on things. This is tedious.===
It IS tedious. More importantly, it takes up valuable time that could otherwise be spent just being. Things are not being done simply for the sake of enjoyment if they're having to be journaled and alotted into categories.
===they might also be short hours in certain areas===
Who is imposing how many hours must be spent?
If the laws for homeschoolers in your state are fairly strict, it might be beneficial for you to chat with some unschoolers in your state to find out how they take what they do in everyday life and apply that to meeting the state requirements.
Keep in mind that learning happens all the time; it doesn't stop 180 days into the year. There really shouldn't be a concern about having "enough hours".
===I know it probably sounds ridiculous to you all.===
I wouldn't say "ridiculous". It sounds like you're new to unschooling and have lots of deschooling to do, and there's lots of perspective-changing that still needs to happen.
I'd like to suggest that every time you think, "I / we should be..." or "this is tedious" or other, similar thoughts that you stop and ask yourself "why?". Then, instead of going ahead and doing the "should" or whatever is "tedious", DON'T. Focus instead on taking that moment and spending it with one of your kids. Go get a hug, go sit down beside one of them and ask what they're doing, ask one or more of them if they want to play a game of Go Fish or play around with some dominoes or legos, etc.
Then actively focus on stopping the thoughts such as "this could be math / reading / etc.". Those thoughts will very likely pop into your head for years (at least, they did for me!) -- just keep stopping them and focusing on enjoying whatever is happening in that moment. You *will* reach a point when your brain just doesn't even go there anymore.
Glenda
It IS tedious. More importantly, it takes up valuable time that could otherwise be spent just being. Things are not being done simply for the sake of enjoyment if they're having to be journaled and alotted into categories.
===they might also be short hours in certain areas===
Who is imposing how many hours must be spent?
If the laws for homeschoolers in your state are fairly strict, it might be beneficial for you to chat with some unschoolers in your state to find out how they take what they do in everyday life and apply that to meeting the state requirements.
Keep in mind that learning happens all the time; it doesn't stop 180 days into the year. There really shouldn't be a concern about having "enough hours".
===I know it probably sounds ridiculous to you all.===
I wouldn't say "ridiculous". It sounds like you're new to unschooling and have lots of deschooling to do, and there's lots of perspective-changing that still needs to happen.
I'd like to suggest that every time you think, "I / we should be..." or "this is tedious" or other, similar thoughts that you stop and ask yourself "why?". Then, instead of going ahead and doing the "should" or whatever is "tedious", DON'T. Focus instead on taking that moment and spending it with one of your kids. Go get a hug, go sit down beside one of them and ask what they're doing, ask one or more of them if they want to play a game of Go Fish or play around with some dominoes or legos, etc.
Then actively focus on stopping the thoughts such as "this could be math / reading / etc.". Those thoughts will very likely pop into your head for years (at least, they did for me!) -- just keep stopping them and focusing on enjoying whatever is happening in that moment. You *will* reach a point when your brain just doesn't even go there anymore.
Glenda
wtexans
===Well, unless you are legally bound to do this, I would consider easing back on this. Sure, you can write these things down for your own self.===
I'd like to suggest *not* writing them down.
When we were new to unschooling, I found that jotting things down or taking photos of the things Andrew was doing kept me in the schooly mentality and kept me from focusing on what was actually happening in that moment. So I quit jotting down notes and never started back up again.
Now, our state's homeschooling laws are very relaxed, so I don't have to keep written track of how learning happens with Andrew. If I did need to, I would keep my daily or weekly notes very brief and then expand on them only as much as I needed to for whatever documentation had to be submitted to the school district. Snapping quick photos might be an alternative to taking notes -- use the date-stamp on your camera if it has that option, then use the pics to jog your memory when you have to put things on paper. But if you don't have to submit documentation to anyone, consider stepping back from taking notes for a while, while you continue to deschool.
Glenda
I'd like to suggest *not* writing them down.
When we were new to unschooling, I found that jotting things down or taking photos of the things Andrew was doing kept me in the schooly mentality and kept me from focusing on what was actually happening in that moment. So I quit jotting down notes and never started back up again.
Now, our state's homeschooling laws are very relaxed, so I don't have to keep written track of how learning happens with Andrew. If I did need to, I would keep my daily or weekly notes very brief and then expand on them only as much as I needed to for whatever documentation had to be submitted to the school district. Snapping quick photos might be an alternative to taking notes -- use the date-stamp on your camera if it has that option, then use the pics to jog your memory when you have to put things on paper. But if you don't have to submit documentation to anyone, consider stepping back from taking notes for a while, while you continue to deschool.
Glenda
keetry
== Alysia, I have been getting them to keep a journal of what they do, and the time spent on things. This is tedious.==
Well, I didn't mean that you should keep a detailed journal of each "subject" and hours spent. I meant a general, loose journal of your day, like a diary entry. I have a blog that I must admit I rarely write on (in?). Every once in a while, though, something comes up that was really cool or interesting or fun that I want to remember so I'll jot it down or take a photo.
== I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying, okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas, and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this anyone? ==
I'm not clear on why you think you need to do this. It's not necessary for getting into college, which is what I remember being your concern from your first post. I think, like Glenda suggested, it might be a good idea to stop trying to keep track of things, whether it be through photos or journaling or whatever. Just enjoy being with your children.
Alysia
Well, I didn't mean that you should keep a detailed journal of each "subject" and hours spent. I meant a general, loose journal of your day, like a diary entry. I have a blog that I must admit I rarely write on (in?). Every once in a while, though, something comes up that was really cool or interesting or fun that I want to remember so I'll jot it down or take a photo.
== I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying, okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas, and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this anyone? ==
I'm not clear on why you think you need to do this. It's not necessary for getting into college, which is what I remember being your concern from your first post. I think, like Glenda suggested, it might be a good idea to stop trying to keep track of things, whether it be through photos or journaling or whatever. Just enjoy being with your children.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=-Alysia, I have been getting them to keep a journal of what they do,
and the time spent on things. This is tedious. I cannot do it, as
there 6 children, and I cannot be on two floors of the house at the
same time. I can see how ridiculous this is...-=-
First, please address comments to the whole group rather than an
individual. It's a very large group and I'd like for people to
discuss ideas as ideas, not to "be helping individuals." Both things
can happen simultaneously.
IF it seems ridiculous, it's probably not the best use of your time to
write it out and mail it to a whole lot of unschoolers. When writing
to the list, please think about whether what you're writing will help
people understand unschooling better.
-=-I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like
this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying,
okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not
worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not
how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas,
and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or
that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this
anyone?-=-
Everyone thought that way at first.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/help
Those will for sure, easily, help you with your thinking now that
you're right on the verge of letting go of the measuring and weighing
and worrying!
We can help you for definite sure. Turn away, though, from what you
were doing. Don't keep examining what is not working. Turn 90
degrees and see other things.
-=- I wanted to read them together with the other two littles. (I call
the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes).-=-
Could you try not to do that on this list, please? It's not going to
be helpful. And if you can practice hearing when you do it, you might
want to consider not doing it anywhere. If you classify two children
as "the other two littles" or three children as "the littles," that's
not accepting and recognizing each person's individuality and growth!
They're growing all the time, and to label them "little" is
[literally] belittling them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and the time spent on things. This is tedious. I cannot do it, as
there 6 children, and I cannot be on two floors of the house at the
same time. I can see how ridiculous this is...-=-
First, please address comments to the whole group rather than an
individual. It's a very large group and I'd like for people to
discuss ideas as ideas, not to "be helping individuals." Both things
can happen simultaneously.
IF it seems ridiculous, it's probably not the best use of your time to
write it out and mail it to a whole lot of unschoolers. When writing
to the list, please think about whether what you're writing will help
people understand unschooling better.
-=-I just don't know how else to do it. I thought of journalling like
this for a month, then adding up hours, and averaging, then saying,
okay, you are naturally doing enough of each "subject" so let's not
worry about time anymore, just keep record of what you are doing, not
how long. Problem is, they might also be short hours in certain areas,
and then feel guilty about claiming they had done certain subjects, or
that they need to do more in those subjects. Any thoughts on this
anyone?-=-
Everyone thought that way at first.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/help
Those will for sure, easily, help you with your thinking now that
you're right on the verge of letting go of the measuring and weighing
and worrying!
We can help you for definite sure. Turn away, though, from what you
were doing. Don't keep examining what is not working. Turn 90
degrees and see other things.
-=- I wanted to read them together with the other two littles. (I call
the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes).-=-
Could you try not to do that on this list, please? It's not going to
be helpful. And if you can practice hearing when you do it, you might
want to consider not doing it anywhere. If you classify two children
as "the other two littles" or three children as "the littles," that's
not accepting and recognizing each person's individuality and growth!
They're growing all the time, and to label them "little" is
[literally] belittling them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= Sandra, you did not comment on why you agreed that homeschool to
unschool was more difficult than a switch from public school to
unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's because public
school to homeschool you think you can do better than them. Homeschool
to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or as well as the
public schools. Does that make sense?-=-
If possible, please don't tag "does that make sense" onto posts. The
whole list is about what makes sense, but we should discuss the ideas
themselves, rather than whether one individual's presentation of the
ideas makes sense. :-)
I didn't think I needed to comment because it seemed obvious, but the
info above is a different take on it, and also very sensible.
What I was thinking is that school at home is kind of like school,
only at home.
Unschooling isn't like either one of them, but a whole different way
of seeing, thinking and living.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschool was more difficult than a switch from public school to
unschool. I thought about it since, and think it's because public
school to homeschool you think you can do better than them. Homeschool
to unschool feels like you won't be doing enough, or as well as the
public schools. Does that make sense?-=-
If possible, please don't tag "does that make sense" onto posts. The
whole list is about what makes sense, but we should discuss the ideas
themselves, rather than whether one individual's presentation of the
ideas makes sense. :-)
I didn't think I needed to comment because it seemed obvious, but the
info above is a different take on it, and also very sensible.
What I was thinking is that school at home is kind of like school,
only at home.
Unschooling isn't like either one of them, but a whole different way
of seeing, thinking and living.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess this comes out sounding pretty well-rounded, but I am stuck
on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript,-=-
Call it what it is, within "language arts"--research compilation,
organization, analysis of ideas (good enough to include? why, why
not? What category?), and depending how it's saved, either word
processing/document preparation, or penmanship/handwriting?
-=-...and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a
need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their
hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I
make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a
credit?-=-
IF you're doing school at home, there are books about how to make
transcripts out there. Cafi Cohen wrote one, and it's not the only one.
But you're asking on the wrong list. Unschooling isn't about making
transcripts.
If you want someone else to make you a professional transcript, google
Wes Beach and his school in California. She could enroll there for
her last year and he could help you both see and categorize less
formal learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on credits, how to call a quote book "English" on a transcript,-=-
Call it what it is, within "language arts"--research compilation,
organization, analysis of ideas (good enough to include? why, why
not? What category?), and depending how it's saved, either word
processing/document preparation, or penmanship/handwriting?
-=-...and getting into college, even though she hasn't expressed a
need for college after grade 12. I feel like they have to count their
hours to make up enough credits for geography or spanish. How can I
make a transcript if they haven't spent enough time on it to be a
credit?-=-
IF you're doing school at home, there are books about how to make
transcripts out there. Cafi Cohen wrote one, and it's not the only one.
But you're asking on the wrong list. Unschooling isn't about making
transcripts.
If you want someone else to make you a professional transcript, google
Wes Beach and his school in California. She could enroll there for
her last year and he could help you both see and categorize less
formal learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dan Voyer
*IF you're doing school at home, there are books about how to make
transcripts out there. Cafi Cohen wrote one, and it's not the only one.
But you're asking on the wrong list. Unschooling isn't about making
transcripts.*
I wasn't aware that unschoolers weren't interested in making transcripts at all. I am quite sure that many or most do not concern themselves with records and transcripts. One of the reasons that I did think some of them were was because of Cafi Cohen. In her book, "And What About College" , she refers to herself as an eclectic homeschooler. She also says her children were unschoolers in part, as they pursued their own interests, and she did give them "credit" for the learning they did in these interests and put them into transcripts.
Also, in Teach Your Own, they do discuss ways to keep records of learning and translating for transcripts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
transcripts out there. Cafi Cohen wrote one, and it's not the only one.
But you're asking on the wrong list. Unschooling isn't about making
transcripts.*
I wasn't aware that unschoolers weren't interested in making transcripts at all. I am quite sure that many or most do not concern themselves with records and transcripts. One of the reasons that I did think some of them were was because of Cafi Cohen. In her book, "And What About College" , she refers to herself as an eclectic homeschooler. She also says her children were unschoolers in part, as they pursued their own interests, and she did give them "credit" for the learning they did in these interests and put them into transcripts.
Also, in Teach Your Own, they do discuss ways to keep records of learning and translating for transcripts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dan Voyer
-=- I wanted to read them together with the other two littles. (I call
the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes).-=-
**Could you try not to do that on this list, please?**
**And if you can practice hearing when you do it, you might
want to consider not doing it anywhere.**
**They're growing all the time, and to label them "little" is
[literally] belittling them.**
I won't refer to them as "the littles" again on here, and I will take what was suggested and listen. However, I have six daughters, ranging from 19 to 5, and there are six years between the older three and the younger three, so there is a natural division in age. I often take the younger three to different places than the older three, as their interests and stages are obviously different. So I would say "the little girls and I went to____today", and eventually got shortened to "the littles". It is not said or meant in a belittling way. I really mean the younger three. I will think about what you said, and listen when I say it, and ask my 9 yo, 7 yo and 5 yo how they feel when I say it. If it in any way made them feel "little" or "belittled" I will not use it again.
I have a neighbor who calls her 7 yo baby all the time. I have heard her say it and know what context she is saying it in, and although I think it sounds silly and would never do it ( I find it irritating), I know that to her, it is a term of endearment or affection.
My husband affectionately calls me his babywoman sometimes. That does not make me feel infantile, babyish, childish, small, little, young or anything negative or derrogative. When we were dating and much in love, we went for a hike along a creek. On the way home, I exclaimed as we passed a field, "Oh, look at all the baby cows! They're so cute!" He laughed and said, "They're not baby cows, they're calves. If they are baby cows because they are small, then you are a baby woman, because you are so small!" (I'm 5'2", and was very petite at the time). After that we joked about it every time we saw a field with cows and calves. When he calls me that, it is affectionately done, and I don't mind at all, in fact, I hope he never stops!
Sometimes it is the tone used and the context used in, that determines whether a nick name or term is derrogative or not...other times, it just is derrogative and wrong. And of course, how it makes the person feel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the younger three girls the "littles" sometimes).-=-
**Could you try not to do that on this list, please?**
**And if you can practice hearing when you do it, you might
want to consider not doing it anywhere.**
**They're growing all the time, and to label them "little" is
[literally] belittling them.**
I won't refer to them as "the littles" again on here, and I will take what was suggested and listen. However, I have six daughters, ranging from 19 to 5, and there are six years between the older three and the younger three, so there is a natural division in age. I often take the younger three to different places than the older three, as their interests and stages are obviously different. So I would say "the little girls and I went to____today", and eventually got shortened to "the littles". It is not said or meant in a belittling way. I really mean the younger three. I will think about what you said, and listen when I say it, and ask my 9 yo, 7 yo and 5 yo how they feel when I say it. If it in any way made them feel "little" or "belittled" I will not use it again.
I have a neighbor who calls her 7 yo baby all the time. I have heard her say it and know what context she is saying it in, and although I think it sounds silly and would never do it ( I find it irritating), I know that to her, it is a term of endearment or affection.
My husband affectionately calls me his babywoman sometimes. That does not make me feel infantile, babyish, childish, small, little, young or anything negative or derrogative. When we were dating and much in love, we went for a hike along a creek. On the way home, I exclaimed as we passed a field, "Oh, look at all the baby cows! They're so cute!" He laughed and said, "They're not baby cows, they're calves. If they are baby cows because they are small, then you are a baby woman, because you are so small!" (I'm 5'2", and was very petite at the time). After that we joked about it every time we saw a field with cows and calves. When he calls me that, it is affectionately done, and I don't mind at all, in fact, I hope he never stops!
Sometimes it is the tone used and the context used in, that determines whether a nick name or term is derrogative or not...other times, it just is derrogative and wrong. And of course, how it makes the person feel.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wasn't aware that unschoolers weren't interested in making
transcripts at all.-=-
I didn't say that. I said this isn't the list for it.
I'm not speaking for all unschoolers, but when this list strays from
discussing how learning works, we're going off topic. When this list
(my list) strays into discussing legalities and paper-practicalities
of any nation or province or state or school district, that's clearly
off topic.
-=-Also, in Teach Your Own, they do discuss ways to keep records of
learning and translating for transcripts. -=-
Then if you have that book, you already have that. It is getting
elderly, for a book, though. MANY colleges have accepted
homeschoolers of all kinds, and are no longer needing people to have
any trumped-up transcripts. I'm not an admissions officer, but if I
were, if I had some homeschoolers to consider, I would go with a
narrative transcript over something made to look like a school
transcript, when both I and the parents knew there had been no school,
anytime.
In 1981 when that book was first published, John Holt was summarizing
what he knew and foresaw for ANYone who wanted to homeschool. He also
assumed people would not be re-creating school at home. He
specifically advised against that, and seemed clearly to think people
would naturally move away from schoolish methods. The 1970's had
just ended, and school reform went as fast and as far as it ever had
in that decade, ultimately to be reined in by conservative fears, and
by considerations of money and accountability and the model of school
as an assembly line with interchangeable parts, so that a child could
transfer from one district to another and still be in the same spot on
the curriculum.
There are people on this list who had no children at all in 1981, who
now have adult children who never went to school. John Holt would be
thrilled, I think; he hadn't met any like that himself in 1981.
For me, honesty is more important than expediency, and I'm not ashamed
of the way my kids grew up here, nor am I trying to hide it, nor am I
trying to help other people hide theirs.
There are people who will help people dodge and hide. Just as
children in a natural-learning situation shouldn't be expected to
learn all of ANYthing from a single book or video, this list
shouldn't be anyone's sole resource for unschooling.
Here are some things on my site that can help people describe what
they do in educational terms:
http://sandradodd.com/gold/peterpan
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/acme1
Just because you *can* do it doesn't mean you have to do it.
Links from those pages lead outside the site, too, because I'm not
trying to trap anyone within my site. Explore! Learn from the whole
world! If you want serious philosophical discussion of unschooling,
though, come on back to this list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
transcripts at all.-=-
I didn't say that. I said this isn't the list for it.
I'm not speaking for all unschoolers, but when this list strays from
discussing how learning works, we're going off topic. When this list
(my list) strays into discussing legalities and paper-practicalities
of any nation or province or state or school district, that's clearly
off topic.
-=-Also, in Teach Your Own, they do discuss ways to keep records of
learning and translating for transcripts. -=-
Then if you have that book, you already have that. It is getting
elderly, for a book, though. MANY colleges have accepted
homeschoolers of all kinds, and are no longer needing people to have
any trumped-up transcripts. I'm not an admissions officer, but if I
were, if I had some homeschoolers to consider, I would go with a
narrative transcript over something made to look like a school
transcript, when both I and the parents knew there had been no school,
anytime.
In 1981 when that book was first published, John Holt was summarizing
what he knew and foresaw for ANYone who wanted to homeschool. He also
assumed people would not be re-creating school at home. He
specifically advised against that, and seemed clearly to think people
would naturally move away from schoolish methods. The 1970's had
just ended, and school reform went as fast and as far as it ever had
in that decade, ultimately to be reined in by conservative fears, and
by considerations of money and accountability and the model of school
as an assembly line with interchangeable parts, so that a child could
transfer from one district to another and still be in the same spot on
the curriculum.
There are people on this list who had no children at all in 1981, who
now have adult children who never went to school. John Holt would be
thrilled, I think; he hadn't met any like that himself in 1981.
For me, honesty is more important than expediency, and I'm not ashamed
of the way my kids grew up here, nor am I trying to hide it, nor am I
trying to help other people hide theirs.
There are people who will help people dodge and hide. Just as
children in a natural-learning situation shouldn't be expected to
learn all of ANYthing from a single book or video, this list
shouldn't be anyone's sole resource for unschooling.
Here are some things on my site that can help people describe what
they do in educational terms:
http://sandradodd.com/gold/peterpan
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/acme1
Just because you *can* do it doesn't mean you have to do it.
Links from those pages lead outside the site, too, because I'm not
trying to trap anyone within my site. Explore! Learn from the whole
world! If you want serious philosophical discussion of unschooling,
though, come on back to this list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is not said or meant in a belittling way. I really mean the
younger three. I will think about what you said, and listen when I say
it, and ask my 9 yo, 7 yo and 5 yo how they feel when I say it. If it
in any way made them feel "little" or "belittled" I will not use it
again.-=-
They might not feel little or belittled, or they might not know it,
but ARE they a set? A team? Without differentiation? That's my
concern in making the recommendation.
Many children, if asked directly whether what a parent does or says
bothers them will say "No, I like it." Kids will even say that about
being grounded or spanked, because they're of a developmental mindset
to see what their parents do as wise and right. So for unschoolers,
the thing to do is not to cause the kids to need to stretch to see
wisdom and thought in what the parents are doing, if the parents are
always thoughtful before the kids have to find their kid-style
justifications.
I don't feel belittled when Marty says "my parents" instead of "my mom
and dad." I'm not saying there's never an appropriate time to group
people. I'm suggesting that if you use the term out and about with
strangers, it might not be serving the originally intended purpose.
It might not be seen as affectionate, but expedient or dismissive.
When a man refers to his wife as "the little woman" it's irritating no
matter what she might think about it. He's using it behind her back.
Some of those who hear it might clearly know how much he loves her.
Others might be influenced in their own thinking about how think of,
to treat or refer to their own wife, or girlfriend, or future
girlfriend.
Children learn from what they see and hear. Newer unschoolers learn
from what they see and read on lists such as this one, and so if
something goes by without comment, that can go into the "great idea"
category for some people rather than the "worth reconsidering" category.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
younger three. I will think about what you said, and listen when I say
it, and ask my 9 yo, 7 yo and 5 yo how they feel when I say it. If it
in any way made them feel "little" or "belittled" I will not use it
again.-=-
They might not feel little or belittled, or they might not know it,
but ARE they a set? A team? Without differentiation? That's my
concern in making the recommendation.
Many children, if asked directly whether what a parent does or says
bothers them will say "No, I like it." Kids will even say that about
being grounded or spanked, because they're of a developmental mindset
to see what their parents do as wise and right. So for unschoolers,
the thing to do is not to cause the kids to need to stretch to see
wisdom and thought in what the parents are doing, if the parents are
always thoughtful before the kids have to find their kid-style
justifications.
I don't feel belittled when Marty says "my parents" instead of "my mom
and dad." I'm not saying there's never an appropriate time to group
people. I'm suggesting that if you use the term out and about with
strangers, it might not be serving the originally intended purpose.
It might not be seen as affectionate, but expedient or dismissive.
When a man refers to his wife as "the little woman" it's irritating no
matter what she might think about it. He's using it behind her back.
Some of those who hear it might clearly know how much he loves her.
Others might be influenced in their own thinking about how think of,
to treat or refer to their own wife, or girlfriend, or future
girlfriend.
Children learn from what they see and hear. Newer unschoolers learn
from what they see and read on lists such as this one, and so if
something goes by without comment, that can go into the "great idea"
category for some people rather than the "worth reconsidering" category.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/14/2010 8:42 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
pictures of the boy," or "I'm taking the boy to get a haircut today." I
haven't heard parents of girls refer to their daughters as, "the girl."
It seems to be meant as a sort of affectionate term, but it always makes
me slightly uncomfortable.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When a man refers to his wife as "the little woman" it's irritating noSons are sometimes referred to as "the boy" as in, "I got some new
> matter what she might think about it. He's using it behind her back.
> Some of those who hear it might clearly know how much he loves her.
pictures of the boy," or "I'm taking the boy to get a haircut today." I
haven't heard parents of girls refer to their daughters as, "the girl."
It seems to be meant as a sort of affectionate term, but it always makes
me slightly uncomfortable.
-pam
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