Sussing out culprits (brought from the thread Radical Unschooling Question)
Sandra Dodd
This is a general response; sorry to have an example from someone who
just joined the list the day before posting.
I had been thinking of telling the story of an unschooling divorce
here anyway, one in which I was asked (as I have been asked a few
other times before) to do something to help make sure the kids could
still be unschooled. I couldn't. What I've been doing for years to
help make sure kids can still be unschooled is to encourage people to
keep their marriages and all the relationships within the family
strong. I don't want to tell that story, but I want to state up front
that this is about that story, and the quote below, and a situation
with my half brother when he was younger, and the whole field of
displaced children.
-=-We moved to Colorado when Craig was almost 11, to a new life (my
first
husband and I had filed for divorce - too much time apart left nothing
in
our marriage except a very roommate like friendship - it was amicable
and
things went very smoothly) and a new man in our lives. Not too long
after we
settled in, the new man and I realized that we were seeing some very
erratic
behavior from Craig. It took a little work, but we sussed out the
culprit -
Corn syrup. -=-
After having read carefully up to that point I was sure you were going
to figure out that moving a kid around, going through a divorce and
bringing in a "new daddy" was going to cause erratic behavior in the
best of kids.
Then you blamed corn syrup.
Maybe corn syrup was his undoing, but disruption of family security
with or without moving is a huge stressor.
When psychiatry came along and blamed mothers for things, there was a
huge reaction that's lasted 100 years.
I think Freud was even right when he said homosexuality involves a
strong mother and a weak or absent father, but not the way he
thought. If the mother and father are kind of middlin' as to extremes
of sexuality, maybe they're genetically predisposed to have middlin'
kids, to the point of homosexuality. When it was a crime, then there
was a culprit. If it becomes not a crime, then there are factors
without the finger of guilt.
Moving a child around, unschooling when dad doesn't think it's a good
idea, and getting a new boyfriend (no matter HOW cool-to-perfect the
new boyfriend is) would mess up Jesus. Though it makes parents feel
better to look at their own decisions in the best possible light,
sometimes it's important to look at it from the child's point of view.
A child who's just gone through a divorce needs lots more parental
focus and attention for a while to feel secure, but very often that's
when the parents go into a depression or a new relationship, both of
which leave the child on his own more than he needs during his own
painful transition.
Looking back over life and all the divorces I heard of from whatever
angle, kids are assured it's not their fault. But I think that phrase
is partly intended to convey "and it's not going to affect you for
long, and it's none of your business."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just joined the list the day before posting.
I had been thinking of telling the story of an unschooling divorce
here anyway, one in which I was asked (as I have been asked a few
other times before) to do something to help make sure the kids could
still be unschooled. I couldn't. What I've been doing for years to
help make sure kids can still be unschooled is to encourage people to
keep their marriages and all the relationships within the family
strong. I don't want to tell that story, but I want to state up front
that this is about that story, and the quote below, and a situation
with my half brother when he was younger, and the whole field of
displaced children.
-=-We moved to Colorado when Craig was almost 11, to a new life (my
first
husband and I had filed for divorce - too much time apart left nothing
in
our marriage except a very roommate like friendship - it was amicable
and
things went very smoothly) and a new man in our lives. Not too long
after we
settled in, the new man and I realized that we were seeing some very
erratic
behavior from Craig. It took a little work, but we sussed out the
culprit -
Corn syrup. -=-
After having read carefully up to that point I was sure you were going
to figure out that moving a kid around, going through a divorce and
bringing in a "new daddy" was going to cause erratic behavior in the
best of kids.
Then you blamed corn syrup.
Maybe corn syrup was his undoing, but disruption of family security
with or without moving is a huge stressor.
When psychiatry came along and blamed mothers for things, there was a
huge reaction that's lasted 100 years.
I think Freud was even right when he said homosexuality involves a
strong mother and a weak or absent father, but not the way he
thought. If the mother and father are kind of middlin' as to extremes
of sexuality, maybe they're genetically predisposed to have middlin'
kids, to the point of homosexuality. When it was a crime, then there
was a culprit. If it becomes not a crime, then there are factors
without the finger of guilt.
Moving a child around, unschooling when dad doesn't think it's a good
idea, and getting a new boyfriend (no matter HOW cool-to-perfect the
new boyfriend is) would mess up Jesus. Though it makes parents feel
better to look at their own decisions in the best possible light,
sometimes it's important to look at it from the child's point of view.
A child who's just gone through a divorce needs lots more parental
focus and attention for a while to feel secure, but very often that's
when the parents go into a depression or a new relationship, both of
which leave the child on his own more than he needs during his own
painful transition.
Looking back over life and all the divorces I heard of from whatever
angle, kids are assured it's not their fault. But I think that phrase
is partly intended to convey "and it's not going to affect you for
long, and it's none of your business."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
The movie phrase about divorce I remember well is "this isn't about you, this is about your dad/mom and me." But divorce is about the kids, marital stability is more about the kids than about the parents.
Parents can recover, they can find other folks to be with, they can get bitter and angry and leverage children against each other or be kind and good and move on, but kids are stuck having to negotiate not only the loss of a parent in the home but gaining step-parents and new burdens and a lack of parental support as their parents move back into the dating game.
Maybe I'm still bitter about my parents' divorce 22 years ago. But I do think that even though I was 18 and living away from home when they divorced, it was never a good thing from my point of view.
Schuyler
________________________________
Looking back over life and all the divorces I heard of from whatever
angle, kids are assured it's not their fault. But I think that phrase
is partly intended to convey "and it's not going to affect you for
long, and it's none of your business."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Parents can recover, they can find other folks to be with, they can get bitter and angry and leverage children against each other or be kind and good and move on, but kids are stuck having to negotiate not only the loss of a parent in the home but gaining step-parents and new burdens and a lack of parental support as their parents move back into the dating game.
Maybe I'm still bitter about my parents' divorce 22 years ago. But I do think that even though I was 18 and living away from home when they divorced, it was never a good thing from my point of view.
Schuyler
________________________________
Looking back over life and all the divorces I heard of from whatever
angle, kids are assured it's not their fault. But I think that phrase
is partly intended to convey "and it's not going to affect you for
long, and it's none of your business."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe I'm still bitter about my parents' divorce 22 years ago. But
I do think that even though I was 18 and living away from home when
they divorced, it was never a good thing from my point of view. -=-
I had a similar experience, though I was still 17. Mine was 40 years
ago. And I'm not "maybe" still bitter, it only got worse as things
developed from there. The house I grew up in was sold. I had nowhere
good to store my stuff. My books ended up in cardboard boxes in a
half-open ancient barn for a while (not a barn owned by relatives, but
by one of my mother's former landlords) and some were ruined. My dad
remarried and divorced, and then after a while married someone my age
with two little kids he adopted. My mom married someone who was nasty
to my sister (words and touch, not worse) and had a baby (not in that
order; baby then marriage) and that half brother has called twice and
written a letter this last week that were all really upsetting to me.
The adopted brother I hardly know e-mailed me quite a bit a couple of
years ago and he had the same arrogant attitude his mom had. So I'm
still feeling the effects.
While I was in college NOT getting pregnant, NOT getting married, NOT
messing up my parents' lives...
And I do know that my experience wasn't as bad as most of my friends'
regarding the divorce of parents. I saw much worse, all around me.
My parents could have blamed my friends for making me bitter and
frustrated, or they could have blamed marijuana smoking, or college
itself (and the latter, they did blame, come to think of it). But I
figured out how to take care of myself and chose friends who would not
drink as my mom had.
My dad was a sweetie and did good things as much as he could, and
marrying the one my age was a good thing for her and for him. She
took care of him when he had arthritis. He took care of her and her
kids financially. When he was dying my sister and I agreed to forego
any inheritance to let her have two small houses they owned in Los
Alamos. Because my dad had adopted them, her kids got to collect on
his social security until they were grown, and they had been toddlers.
ALL these things factor into a life, and I think if people think of "a
child's life" as being 18 years, and then their adult life begins, as
though it were some totally different life, that causes disconnects
and illogical thinking in the parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do think that even though I was 18 and living away from home when
they divorced, it was never a good thing from my point of view. -=-
I had a similar experience, though I was still 17. Mine was 40 years
ago. And I'm not "maybe" still bitter, it only got worse as things
developed from there. The house I grew up in was sold. I had nowhere
good to store my stuff. My books ended up in cardboard boxes in a
half-open ancient barn for a while (not a barn owned by relatives, but
by one of my mother's former landlords) and some were ruined. My dad
remarried and divorced, and then after a while married someone my age
with two little kids he adopted. My mom married someone who was nasty
to my sister (words and touch, not worse) and had a baby (not in that
order; baby then marriage) and that half brother has called twice and
written a letter this last week that were all really upsetting to me.
The adopted brother I hardly know e-mailed me quite a bit a couple of
years ago and he had the same arrogant attitude his mom had. So I'm
still feeling the effects.
While I was in college NOT getting pregnant, NOT getting married, NOT
messing up my parents' lives...
And I do know that my experience wasn't as bad as most of my friends'
regarding the divorce of parents. I saw much worse, all around me.
My parents could have blamed my friends for making me bitter and
frustrated, or they could have blamed marijuana smoking, or college
itself (and the latter, they did blame, come to think of it). But I
figured out how to take care of myself and chose friends who would not
drink as my mom had.
My dad was a sweetie and did good things as much as he could, and
marrying the one my age was a good thing for her and for him. She
took care of him when he had arthritis. He took care of her and her
kids financially. When he was dying my sister and I agreed to forego
any inheritance to let her have two small houses they owned in Los
Alamos. Because my dad had adopted them, her kids got to collect on
his social security until they were grown, and they had been toddlers.
ALL these things factor into a life, and I think if people think of "a
child's life" as being 18 years, and then their adult life begins, as
though it were some totally different life, that causes disconnects
and illogical thinking in the parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Moving a child around, unschooling when dad doesn't think it's a good
idea, and getting a new boyfriend (no matter HOW cool-to-perfect the
new boyfriend is) would mess up Jesus. Though it makes parents feel
better to look at their own decisions in the best possible light,
sometimes it's important to look at it from the child's point of view.***
That's probably the worst aspect about divorce. Like school, for most kids, divorce is a situation in which kids are powerless and have no choice. Some kids fair better than others, have better coping skills, nicer moms, nicer friends, etc, but even those kids feel the pain of divorce.
***my first husband and I had filed for divorce - too much time apart left nothing in our marriage except a very roommate like friendship***
At the risk of being very offensive, I do not understand that reasoning for divorce. It seems extremely selfish. Too much time apart, and the mom and dad feel like friends, as opposed to what? Lovers? What is wrong with being friends with someone you chose to have children with? The whole passion thing can come and go in a long term relationship. It's very short sighted to leave a marriage for that reason.
In the last chat we had, I mentioned a kid that Chamille refuses to make amends with. She says he's gossipy and needy for attention, to the extreme. He confided in me once about his parent's divorce. He was 11. He still hasn't gotten over it, he's almost 15. He's been to counseling, acted out, beyond normal preteen hormonal weirdness. He resorts to drugs and manipulative friendships. His mom is really really nice. She tries as best as she can. She's at least aware enough to KNOW that it was the divorce that did it, that changed her son's behavior during a crucial time in his life. That's the age that kids need more of their parents and more security and more of everything. To have divorce dumped on them at that time in their lives is almost cruel to the extreme.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
idea, and getting a new boyfriend (no matter HOW cool-to-perfect the
new boyfriend is) would mess up Jesus. Though it makes parents feel
better to look at their own decisions in the best possible light,
sometimes it's important to look at it from the child's point of view.***
That's probably the worst aspect about divorce. Like school, for most kids, divorce is a situation in which kids are powerless and have no choice. Some kids fair better than others, have better coping skills, nicer moms, nicer friends, etc, but even those kids feel the pain of divorce.
***my first husband and I had filed for divorce - too much time apart left nothing in our marriage except a very roommate like friendship***
At the risk of being very offensive, I do not understand that reasoning for divorce. It seems extremely selfish. Too much time apart, and the mom and dad feel like friends, as opposed to what? Lovers? What is wrong with being friends with someone you chose to have children with? The whole passion thing can come and go in a long term relationship. It's very short sighted to leave a marriage for that reason.
In the last chat we had, I mentioned a kid that Chamille refuses to make amends with. She says he's gossipy and needy for attention, to the extreme. He confided in me once about his parent's divorce. He was 11. He still hasn't gotten over it, he's almost 15. He's been to counseling, acted out, beyond normal preteen hormonal weirdness. He resorts to drugs and manipulative friendships. His mom is really really nice. She tries as best as she can. She's at least aware enough to KNOW that it was the divorce that did it, that changed her son's behavior during a crucial time in his life. That's the age that kids need more of their parents and more security and more of everything. To have divorce dumped on them at that time in their lives is almost cruel to the extreme.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Wray
Jenny and Sandra, I'd like to thank you both for your responses - when my
post never came through I thought perhaps it had been blocked for some
reason - at least this way I know it hadn't been. Obviously, in my attempt
to keep a long story from being even longer, I didn't offer enough
information in areas that I didn't realize were going to be crucial to your
understanding. So here's more information, which will hopefully help clear
up any misconceptions, judgements, and false conclusions.
~~*At the risk of being very offensive, I do not understand that reasoning
for divorce. It seems extremely selfish. Too much time apart, and the mom
and dad feel like friends, as opposed to what? Lovers? What is wrong with
being friends with someone you chose to have children with? The whole
passion thing can come and go in a long term relationship. It's very short
sighted to leave a marriage for that reason.*~~
My first husband and I were having issues by the second year of our
marriage, tension and arguments about money were a pretty common aspect of
our marriage prior to his enlistment in the military (which eased some of
the tensions and some of the arguments about money, but not all). We'd been
married almost 5 yrs and Craig was 8 mos old when my husband enlisted. The
amount of time he was gone (4 years worth of time gone out of the 5-1/2
years on the one ship) meant there was not much time to work on our
marriage. A one-night stand he had while deployed - and I did not find out
about until just before we moved back to California - also weakened what
there was of our marriage. By the time I sought divorce, we'd been married
almost 15 years and he'd been in the Navy for 10 years, and our relationship
was more like roommates than spouses - we led separate lives. He came home
after being gone for a week, sat in his chair and watched the golf channel
all day Friday, went golfing early in the morning on Saturday, had little to
do with his son or me... and expressed no real emotion for either of us, and
very rarely even said a whole lot to either of us. He and Craig share an
interest in golf. He took him once, expressed what a good player Craig was,
and never took him again, though he went every Saturday. He had no tolerance
for Craig having any friends over when he was home - and since most of
Craig's friends in the neighborhood were schooled, weekends were the time
they had available for playing. That is not the normal up and down of a
marriage or any loving relationship. I didn't expect constant lover-like
behavior. What I hoped for was a loving companionship - not a nearly silent
roommate, who had little to do with me, and even less to do with his son.
When I told him that I thought we should get a divorce, his very first
response was "What will you do for money?" When I told him what I'd thought
about for that, he agreed, and it was done. We set out an arrangement for
everything (including custody and child support) and had it notarized, and
filed non-contested. That was it. There was nothing left of this marriage.
The unschooling aspect that Sandra mentioned ~~*quote: unschooling when dad
doesn't think it's a good idea :unquote*~~ was a non-issue by the time of
the divorce. His dad had problems with it at first, because it was
unfamiliar and way outside of his comfort zone. After we'd been unschooling
for a year, his discomfort lessened, and by a couple years in he was fine
with it. Unschooling was not an issue in our lives and neither the cause of
the divorce, nor of Craig's erratic behavior.
As for the erractic behavior I was referring to, it was really erractic. It
was something I'd seen in California before the divorce was even a
possibility, but not often. Something I'd noticed in Washington, but not
often. We didn't see it often in Colorado either, and it was odd. The worst
one happened in California, but the one that really made us think after we'd
moved to Colorado was almost as bad. It goes like this: Craig goes out to
play, comes in and gets a snack and something to drink, and then goes
back out to play. Most of the time, life goes on as normal. On those rare
days, as I let him know it was going to be time to come in soon - for
whatever reason, an out-of-the-blue meltdown happens. First he argues, flat
out angry yelling on his part, then he becomes indecisive, doesn't know if
he wants to come in, stay out, eat dinner, not eat dinner, play a video
game, watch tv, build legos (mind most of this is coming from him - I
haven't had much time to say anything), and then fully dissolved in tears
he's on the floor sobbing as though his world has ended. At that point, I
could comfort him - prior to that I'd have been pushed away forcefully. All
of that happens in less than ten minutes. In Colorado that meltdown happened
more often, but still not with any predictability. We'd already modified his
diet to help control his ADHD (www.feingold.org for more information),
removing all artificials (color, flavor, sweetener, preservative). I'd
remember reading about similar reactions on the Feingold members board, and
checked his diet diary that I was keeping since we were testing a food the
week of the worst meltdown in Colorado (he was laying on the floor crying
that he was too hungry to eat, but turning down all foods). We started
looking at ingredients of things he'd had and realized that he'd had a
couple of things with corn syrup in them. It made us wonder, but we weren't
entirely certain. Later that week he had a soda, and the reaction happened
within a half an hour. So we decided to take corn syrup out of his diet for
a few weeks (it meant looking close at everything, because it's in strange
foods - like Wheat Thins for instance), and then test the corn syrup foods.
Upon having a fruit cup (the liquid in the cup was corn syrup) and then a
little bit later, a soda (and these were things that were usually around the
house, and that he was normally allowed to have), we got a similar reaction
to what had prompted this test before. Because he'd had these reactions
before corn syrup was ever suspected, and before I'd changed his diet even,
we knew we had found the cause. Since we have removed corn syrup completely,
we've only seen this reaction once - that was when he went with a friend and
had ice cream at a place that made their own, we didn't realize they used
corn syrup in their ice cream base. He got over that reaction, told both me
and his step-dad that he hated the way that it had made him feel (out of
control) and has since been very good about reading labels or asking
questions to make sure that corn syrup (or dextrose) is not listed in the
ingredients.
As for Craig and his step-dad, they actually have a relationship, they talk,
they go places together, they have shared interests and spend time together
doing them, affection is expressed between them (as opposed to Craig's dad
who very often would push him away if Craig asked for a hug). Craig is able
to ask a question and get an answer instead of getting brushed off or
ignored. Is their relationship perfect? No, but it's definitely better than
what he had before. Was I selfish for getting divorced - possibly, and
believe me I thought about it for months before I said something. What it
came down to was this: What is better in this case - staying with a man who
doesn't really care for his son, and rejects all affection from his son, or
leaving and starting a new life where Craig wouldn't have his loved
rebuffed? I chose the latter, and it worked for us. Had there been a
relationship of love and caring between Craig and his dad, circumstances
might have been different. His relationship with his dad is better now -
more like an uncle and nephew - but not anything like what he and my current
husband have.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
post never came through I thought perhaps it had been blocked for some
reason - at least this way I know it hadn't been. Obviously, in my attempt
to keep a long story from being even longer, I didn't offer enough
information in areas that I didn't realize were going to be crucial to your
understanding. So here's more information, which will hopefully help clear
up any misconceptions, judgements, and false conclusions.
~~*At the risk of being very offensive, I do not understand that reasoning
for divorce. It seems extremely selfish. Too much time apart, and the mom
and dad feel like friends, as opposed to what? Lovers? What is wrong with
being friends with someone you chose to have children with? The whole
passion thing can come and go in a long term relationship. It's very short
sighted to leave a marriage for that reason.*~~
My first husband and I were having issues by the second year of our
marriage, tension and arguments about money were a pretty common aspect of
our marriage prior to his enlistment in the military (which eased some of
the tensions and some of the arguments about money, but not all). We'd been
married almost 5 yrs and Craig was 8 mos old when my husband enlisted. The
amount of time he was gone (4 years worth of time gone out of the 5-1/2
years on the one ship) meant there was not much time to work on our
marriage. A one-night stand he had while deployed - and I did not find out
about until just before we moved back to California - also weakened what
there was of our marriage. By the time I sought divorce, we'd been married
almost 15 years and he'd been in the Navy for 10 years, and our relationship
was more like roommates than spouses - we led separate lives. He came home
after being gone for a week, sat in his chair and watched the golf channel
all day Friday, went golfing early in the morning on Saturday, had little to
do with his son or me... and expressed no real emotion for either of us, and
very rarely even said a whole lot to either of us. He and Craig share an
interest in golf. He took him once, expressed what a good player Craig was,
and never took him again, though he went every Saturday. He had no tolerance
for Craig having any friends over when he was home - and since most of
Craig's friends in the neighborhood were schooled, weekends were the time
they had available for playing. That is not the normal up and down of a
marriage or any loving relationship. I didn't expect constant lover-like
behavior. What I hoped for was a loving companionship - not a nearly silent
roommate, who had little to do with me, and even less to do with his son.
When I told him that I thought we should get a divorce, his very first
response was "What will you do for money?" When I told him what I'd thought
about for that, he agreed, and it was done. We set out an arrangement for
everything (including custody and child support) and had it notarized, and
filed non-contested. That was it. There was nothing left of this marriage.
The unschooling aspect that Sandra mentioned ~~*quote: unschooling when dad
doesn't think it's a good idea :unquote*~~ was a non-issue by the time of
the divorce. His dad had problems with it at first, because it was
unfamiliar and way outside of his comfort zone. After we'd been unschooling
for a year, his discomfort lessened, and by a couple years in he was fine
with it. Unschooling was not an issue in our lives and neither the cause of
the divorce, nor of Craig's erratic behavior.
As for the erractic behavior I was referring to, it was really erractic. It
was something I'd seen in California before the divorce was even a
possibility, but not often. Something I'd noticed in Washington, but not
often. We didn't see it often in Colorado either, and it was odd. The worst
one happened in California, but the one that really made us think after we'd
moved to Colorado was almost as bad. It goes like this: Craig goes out to
play, comes in and gets a snack and something to drink, and then goes
back out to play. Most of the time, life goes on as normal. On those rare
days, as I let him know it was going to be time to come in soon - for
whatever reason, an out-of-the-blue meltdown happens. First he argues, flat
out angry yelling on his part, then he becomes indecisive, doesn't know if
he wants to come in, stay out, eat dinner, not eat dinner, play a video
game, watch tv, build legos (mind most of this is coming from him - I
haven't had much time to say anything), and then fully dissolved in tears
he's on the floor sobbing as though his world has ended. At that point, I
could comfort him - prior to that I'd have been pushed away forcefully. All
of that happens in less than ten minutes. In Colorado that meltdown happened
more often, but still not with any predictability. We'd already modified his
diet to help control his ADHD (www.feingold.org for more information),
removing all artificials (color, flavor, sweetener, preservative). I'd
remember reading about similar reactions on the Feingold members board, and
checked his diet diary that I was keeping since we were testing a food the
week of the worst meltdown in Colorado (he was laying on the floor crying
that he was too hungry to eat, but turning down all foods). We started
looking at ingredients of things he'd had and realized that he'd had a
couple of things with corn syrup in them. It made us wonder, but we weren't
entirely certain. Later that week he had a soda, and the reaction happened
within a half an hour. So we decided to take corn syrup out of his diet for
a few weeks (it meant looking close at everything, because it's in strange
foods - like Wheat Thins for instance), and then test the corn syrup foods.
Upon having a fruit cup (the liquid in the cup was corn syrup) and then a
little bit later, a soda (and these were things that were usually around the
house, and that he was normally allowed to have), we got a similar reaction
to what had prompted this test before. Because he'd had these reactions
before corn syrup was ever suspected, and before I'd changed his diet even,
we knew we had found the cause. Since we have removed corn syrup completely,
we've only seen this reaction once - that was when he went with a friend and
had ice cream at a place that made their own, we didn't realize they used
corn syrup in their ice cream base. He got over that reaction, told both me
and his step-dad that he hated the way that it had made him feel (out of
control) and has since been very good about reading labels or asking
questions to make sure that corn syrup (or dextrose) is not listed in the
ingredients.
As for Craig and his step-dad, they actually have a relationship, they talk,
they go places together, they have shared interests and spend time together
doing them, affection is expressed between them (as opposed to Craig's dad
who very often would push him away if Craig asked for a hug). Craig is able
to ask a question and get an answer instead of getting brushed off or
ignored. Is their relationship perfect? No, but it's definitely better than
what he had before. Was I selfish for getting divorced - possibly, and
believe me I thought about it for months before I said something. What it
came down to was this: What is better in this case - staying with a man who
doesn't really care for his son, and rejects all affection from his son, or
leaving and starting a new life where Craig wouldn't have his loved
rebuffed? I chose the latter, and it worked for us. Had there been a
relationship of love and caring between Craig and his dad, circumstances
might have been different. His relationship with his dad is better now -
more like an uncle and nephew - but not anything like what he and my current
husband have.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Obviously, in my attempt
to keep a long story from being even longer, I didn't offer enough
information in areas that I didn't realize were going to be crucial to
your
understanding. So here's more information, which will hopefully help
clear
up any misconceptions, judgements, and false conclusions.-=-
I let that post through, but before you post any more please read more
about this list, and possibly more ON this list.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
They're also in the files area of the list, and you should've received
the second one by e-mail when you joined.
Sandra the listowner
to keep a long story from being even longer, I didn't offer enough
information in areas that I didn't realize were going to be crucial to
your
understanding. So here's more information, which will hopefully help
clear
up any misconceptions, judgements, and false conclusions.-=-
I let that post through, but before you post any more please read more
about this list, and possibly more ON this list.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
They're also in the files area of the list, and you should've received
the second one by e-mail when you joined.
Sandra the listowner
Sandra Dodd
One difficult thing about people joining the list and posting
immediately is that it's hard to be prepared for the type of
discussion this is.
And another difficult thing is that someone started a topic that was a
sort of poll, without regard for the type of discussion this is.
I don't mind pollish (oooh... poll-like) questions, *but* anything put
on the list is still fodder for discussion.
So a list member sent me a response and a question of whether it was
appropriate. Some people are shy to post and that's fine. Some are
afraid to appear not to be "supportive." But again, this list is for
supporting more understanding of the things that help or hinder
natural learning. So I offered to bring that response anonymously.
It's strong, and I'm on the fence about protecting the feelings of new
members vs. reminding new members to read the intro e-mail and wait a
while before posting.
From here down is anonymous.
==========================================
---------My first husband and I were having issues by the second year
of our marriage-------
Everything you listed, money stress, work stress, infidelity, time
stress, all of those things can be worked through in a marriage.
Obviously you can't go back and change time. Hopefully you can find a
way to not repeat the same mistakes.
Something that inspires me, is hearing long time married couples talk
about their relationship. Many of them lived through all of the
things you mentioned, yet stayed together. It's ok to admit that you
were selfish and made a mistake that cost a lot of peace for your
child, whether or not you can see it or agree with it. What's done is
done, but you could probably help your son by owning it and
apologizing for it.
I very strongly believe that erratic behavior is caused by
environment. Divorce is way bigger than corn syrup, in environmental
changes. To say that the divorce was amicable and easy for the
parents and therefore makes it somehow easy for the kids too, is
completely blinding yourself. It's better than a yucky divorce for
sure. Having a good step parent is better than having a yucky, and
that's great. None of those things make divorce any less painful for
a kid. Men change, dads change, moms change, women change; you didn't
account for that and your child paid the cost of your short sightedness.
How in the world can you KNOW that it wasn't the divorce that caused
the erratic behavior? That, again, seems very short sighted. To
blame it on food just seems mean to me and completely dismissive of
your child's very real feelings that were exhibited in erratic behavior.
==========================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
immediately is that it's hard to be prepared for the type of
discussion this is.
And another difficult thing is that someone started a topic that was a
sort of poll, without regard for the type of discussion this is.
I don't mind pollish (oooh... poll-like) questions, *but* anything put
on the list is still fodder for discussion.
So a list member sent me a response and a question of whether it was
appropriate. Some people are shy to post and that's fine. Some are
afraid to appear not to be "supportive." But again, this list is for
supporting more understanding of the things that help or hinder
natural learning. So I offered to bring that response anonymously.
It's strong, and I'm on the fence about protecting the feelings of new
members vs. reminding new members to read the intro e-mail and wait a
while before posting.
From here down is anonymous.
==========================================
---------My first husband and I were having issues by the second year
of our marriage-------
Everything you listed, money stress, work stress, infidelity, time
stress, all of those things can be worked through in a marriage.
Obviously you can't go back and change time. Hopefully you can find a
way to not repeat the same mistakes.
Something that inspires me, is hearing long time married couples talk
about their relationship. Many of them lived through all of the
things you mentioned, yet stayed together. It's ok to admit that you
were selfish and made a mistake that cost a lot of peace for your
child, whether or not you can see it or agree with it. What's done is
done, but you could probably help your son by owning it and
apologizing for it.
I very strongly believe that erratic behavior is caused by
environment. Divorce is way bigger than corn syrup, in environmental
changes. To say that the divorce was amicable and easy for the
parents and therefore makes it somehow easy for the kids too, is
completely blinding yourself. It's better than a yucky divorce for
sure. Having a good step parent is better than having a yucky, and
that's great. None of those things make divorce any less painful for
a kid. Men change, dads change, moms change, women change; you didn't
account for that and your child paid the cost of your short sightedness.
How in the world can you KNOW that it wasn't the divorce that caused
the erratic behavior? That, again, seems very short sighted. To
blame it on food just seems mean to me and completely dismissive of
your child's very real feelings that were exhibited in erratic behavior.
==========================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>>How in the world can you KNOW that it wasn't the divorce that causedthe erratic behavior? That, again, seems very short sighted. To
blame it on food just seems mean to me and completely dismissive of
your child's very real feelings that were exhibited in erratic behavior.<<<<
Children want to love and be loved by their parents. This means that they
will be GLAD to accept or have someone name culprits other than the parents.
I still blame the influence of religion for many of my parent's decisions.
In other words I don't blame them. I blame religion. I think that's valid
but only to a degree. I realize my parents didn't choose their environment.
I get that. I also understand that cultural pressures to be the parents they
were, were very strong. I get that. It's also possible to accept the fact
that they don't have to consult their children about the decisions they
make/made. I get that too.
It's possible see the effects one has on one's children in retrospect much
more clearly than it's possible to realize it at the time.
Maybe there's something to corn syrup ... I have a friend who swears she's
allergic to sugar but she can eat crystalline fructose? which I'm a bit
worried about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystalline_fructose (Who knows
for sure if this is one of those fad worries about food/health or not? ... I
like sticking with sugar--- sugar being sticky is a pun --oops. Each to
their own.)
I agree that parents can at any time resolve to look more deeply at where
they could have or could still make a difference in the lives of their
children. And I would say that's true, even if their children are grown...
because it may heal some unintended parent/child divisions.
The sooner the better. I wish my parents had/would do that. I would love to
feel real acceptance but I don't look for it. My mom's had a stroke over a
year ago and her mind/thinking isn't what it used to be. And my dad is busy
caring for her, my dad who had heart attacks at 45 and thought he would die
young like his dad did. He's the healthy one because he's been taking very
good care of himself all this time.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Wray
<snip> Sandra Dodd wrote: From here down is anonymous.<unsnip>
==========================================
~~* Everything you listed, money stress, work stress, infidelity, time
stress, all of those things can be worked through in a marriage.
Obviously you can't go back and change time. Hopefully you can find a
way to not repeat the same mistakes.*~~
Yes, they can be, but my ex was not the sort to work through problems in
front of other people. When I asked him about seeking help, a way to work
through all of this, his answer was no. He would not do it, and nothing I
said could get him to go. I tried at different times during our 15 yr
marriage. One person can not make a marriage work, no matter how hard they
try. I gave all I could, and when I realized what my husband's attitude was
doing to my son, that's when we left. Yes, all of those things can be worked
through, but how does one work through having a spouse who wants little to
nothing to do with their child? One who pushes away the child, and doesn't
see the look of hurt on his face. I did not enter into this decision
lightly, and was fully aware of the fact that I was making a decision that
would impact my son greatly. But as parents, we have to weigh matters
heavily when it comes to the best way to help our children grow up happy,
healthy, and as little damaged as possible. Is that not why we've chosen to
unschool?
~~*Something that inspires me, is hearing long time married couples talk
about their relationship. Many of them lived through all of the
things you mentioned, yet stayed together. It's ok to admit that you
were selfish and made a mistake that cost a lot of peace for your
child, whether or not you can see it or agree with it. What's done is
done, but you could probably help your son by owning it and
apologizing for it.*~~
My son was okay with this a long time ago. The divorce was 6 years ago. We
sat down and talked about the divorce and what it meant for the two of us
(him and me), several times in the first year. Whenever he had a question or
a concern he came to me, or to his eventual stepdad, whomever he needed to
address the issue with, and we sat and listened and answered his concerns as
fully, and seriously, as we could.
~~*I very strongly believe that erratic behavior is caused by
environment. Divorce is way bigger than corn syrup, in environmental
changes. To say that the divorce was amicable and easy for the
parents and therefore makes it somehow easy for the kids too, is
completely blinding yourself. It's better than a yucky divorce for
sure. Having a good step parent is better than having a yucky, and
that's great. None of those things make divorce any less painful for
a kid. Men change, dads change, moms change, women change; you didn't
account for that and your child paid the cost of your short sightedness. *~~
Yes, divorce is way bigger than corn syrup. I looked back, just to make sure
and I never said, or implied, that the divorce was easy on Craig. We did
what we could to make as painless as possible, but I know it wasn't pain
free. I can tell you that he's been a happier child since the divorce - in
large part because he now has a dad who is present in his life. My ex wasn't
there, physically much of the time (he had much sea duty so he was gone a
tremendous amount of time, and his shore duty was spent with many odd hour
shifts), and when he was actually home, emotionally he wasn't there. Yes,
people change, and my ex did change in ways that I didn't expect, but one
thing that never really changed (and that I'd always hoped would) was his
behavior towards his son.
~~*How in the world can you KNOW that it wasn't the divorce that caused
the erratic behavior? That, again, seems very short sighted. To
blame it on food just seems mean to me and completely dismissive of
your child's very real feelings that were exhibited in erratic behavior.*~~
The reason I KNOW is because since removing corn syrup (which was now 5
years ago) the behavior has happened only once, as I said in my addendum -
when he'd had ice cream made with a corn syrup base. It also happened while
we were living in Washington (when he was between ages 2-1/2 and 8-1/2) and
while we were living in California (between ages 8-1/2 and almost 11). So
the fact that I suspected food was not because I was being dismissive of his
feelings, but because the behavior wasn't new entirely. The reason I hadn't
seen it as often is because we didn't have soda around much when I was
living with my ex. He preferred iced tea or sports drinks, and I don't drink
soda... so I didn't have as many opportunities to observe the behavior. When
I did see it before (and before we'd researched alternatives treatments to
ADHD), I thought he was just having a bad day, or that it was because of who
he'd been hanging around with, and dealt with it as I could. This was
happening more often, but not all the time, not even regularly, and that's
eventually what led me to suspect food. I'm not the only parent that has
noticed a cause/effect relationship between corn syrup and their child's
behavior - it's due to the way it's processed, not due to the fact that it's
a sweetener.
It probably sounds extreme, maybe even crazy or cruel, to someone who's not
living it; to remove a food, or to suspect it in behavior issues.
Unschooling sounds extreme, even crazy or cruel (to the point that there are
those saying that unschoolers should be investigated for child abuse) to
someone not living it. To people who have no food issues, those of us who've
found relief - both adults and children - utilizing the Feingold program
seem like nutcases (I've gotten that look from people). Unschoolers
(especially radical unschoolers) seem the same way to those who have never
researched it.
Laura W
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==========================================
~~* Everything you listed, money stress, work stress, infidelity, time
stress, all of those things can be worked through in a marriage.
Obviously you can't go back and change time. Hopefully you can find a
way to not repeat the same mistakes.*~~
Yes, they can be, but my ex was not the sort to work through problems in
front of other people. When I asked him about seeking help, a way to work
through all of this, his answer was no. He would not do it, and nothing I
said could get him to go. I tried at different times during our 15 yr
marriage. One person can not make a marriage work, no matter how hard they
try. I gave all I could, and when I realized what my husband's attitude was
doing to my son, that's when we left. Yes, all of those things can be worked
through, but how does one work through having a spouse who wants little to
nothing to do with their child? One who pushes away the child, and doesn't
see the look of hurt on his face. I did not enter into this decision
lightly, and was fully aware of the fact that I was making a decision that
would impact my son greatly. But as parents, we have to weigh matters
heavily when it comes to the best way to help our children grow up happy,
healthy, and as little damaged as possible. Is that not why we've chosen to
unschool?
~~*Something that inspires me, is hearing long time married couples talk
about their relationship. Many of them lived through all of the
things you mentioned, yet stayed together. It's ok to admit that you
were selfish and made a mistake that cost a lot of peace for your
child, whether or not you can see it or agree with it. What's done is
done, but you could probably help your son by owning it and
apologizing for it.*~~
My son was okay with this a long time ago. The divorce was 6 years ago. We
sat down and talked about the divorce and what it meant for the two of us
(him and me), several times in the first year. Whenever he had a question or
a concern he came to me, or to his eventual stepdad, whomever he needed to
address the issue with, and we sat and listened and answered his concerns as
fully, and seriously, as we could.
~~*I very strongly believe that erratic behavior is caused by
environment. Divorce is way bigger than corn syrup, in environmental
changes. To say that the divorce was amicable and easy for the
parents and therefore makes it somehow easy for the kids too, is
completely blinding yourself. It's better than a yucky divorce for
sure. Having a good step parent is better than having a yucky, and
that's great. None of those things make divorce any less painful for
a kid. Men change, dads change, moms change, women change; you didn't
account for that and your child paid the cost of your short sightedness. *~~
Yes, divorce is way bigger than corn syrup. I looked back, just to make sure
and I never said, or implied, that the divorce was easy on Craig. We did
what we could to make as painless as possible, but I know it wasn't pain
free. I can tell you that he's been a happier child since the divorce - in
large part because he now has a dad who is present in his life. My ex wasn't
there, physically much of the time (he had much sea duty so he was gone a
tremendous amount of time, and his shore duty was spent with many odd hour
shifts), and when he was actually home, emotionally he wasn't there. Yes,
people change, and my ex did change in ways that I didn't expect, but one
thing that never really changed (and that I'd always hoped would) was his
behavior towards his son.
~~*How in the world can you KNOW that it wasn't the divorce that caused
the erratic behavior? That, again, seems very short sighted. To
blame it on food just seems mean to me and completely dismissive of
your child's very real feelings that were exhibited in erratic behavior.*~~
The reason I KNOW is because since removing corn syrup (which was now 5
years ago) the behavior has happened only once, as I said in my addendum -
when he'd had ice cream made with a corn syrup base. It also happened while
we were living in Washington (when he was between ages 2-1/2 and 8-1/2) and
while we were living in California (between ages 8-1/2 and almost 11). So
the fact that I suspected food was not because I was being dismissive of his
feelings, but because the behavior wasn't new entirely. The reason I hadn't
seen it as often is because we didn't have soda around much when I was
living with my ex. He preferred iced tea or sports drinks, and I don't drink
soda... so I didn't have as many opportunities to observe the behavior. When
I did see it before (and before we'd researched alternatives treatments to
ADHD), I thought he was just having a bad day, or that it was because of who
he'd been hanging around with, and dealt with it as I could. This was
happening more often, but not all the time, not even regularly, and that's
eventually what led me to suspect food. I'm not the only parent that has
noticed a cause/effect relationship between corn syrup and their child's
behavior - it's due to the way it's processed, not due to the fact that it's
a sweetener.
It probably sounds extreme, maybe even crazy or cruel, to someone who's not
living it; to remove a food, or to suspect it in behavior issues.
Unschooling sounds extreme, even crazy or cruel (to the point that there are
those saying that unschoolers should be investigated for child abuse) to
someone not living it. To people who have no food issues, those of us who've
found relief - both adults and children - utilizing the Feingold program
seem like nutcases (I've gotten that look from people). Unschoolers
(especially radical unschoolers) seem the same way to those who have never
researched it.
Laura W
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JoyErin
-= This means that they will be GLAD to accept or have someone name
culprits other than the parents.
I still blame the influence of religion for many of my parent's decisions.
In other words I don't blame them. I blame religion. I think that's valid
but only to a degree. =-
As a parent with a child who did indeed seem to be and act out differently
when having a lot of corn syrup, especially with soda, I can really
understand how parents think that it alone is the culprit and ALL about that
one thing. When still living in the US my family and I always doubted the
corn syrup behaviour connection until we moved to the UK it was no longer a
constant part of our life. I think if I could go back in time, to those
intense emotional days, I'd try to see the corn syrup as more of a blessing
to me as a parent. It gave me more opportunity to know about feelings that
wouldn't normally be expressed. It seems to me that possibly somehow the
corn syrup causes some kind of imbalance for some kids that reduces the
logical part of the brain from being able to control the emotional part as
much.
Joy K
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
culprits other than the parents.
I still blame the influence of religion for many of my parent's decisions.
In other words I don't blame them. I blame religion. I think that's valid
but only to a degree. =-
As a parent with a child who did indeed seem to be and act out differently
when having a lot of corn syrup, especially with soda, I can really
understand how parents think that it alone is the culprit and ALL about that
one thing. When still living in the US my family and I always doubted the
corn syrup behaviour connection until we moved to the UK it was no longer a
constant part of our life. I think if I could go back in time, to those
intense emotional days, I'd try to see the corn syrup as more of a blessing
to me as a parent. It gave me more opportunity to know about feelings that
wouldn't normally be expressed. It seems to me that possibly somehow the
corn syrup causes some kind of imbalance for some kids that reduces the
logical part of the brain from being able to control the emotional part as
much.
Joy K
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Someone wrote on another list about how they chose to go all in to their marriage before writing it off. She invested everything, put the idea of divorce or separation as far out from the possible as what she could do. And it wasn't happy, her marriage, it wasn't good. But she wanted to know that she had made every effort. She didn't worry about his share, about what he needed to do to make it work, it was all about what she could do. She did everything she could to clear the slate of all the bitterness she may have felt, to breathe only fresh air into the marriage and not the stale, angry stuff that she'd been coughing up in the days that led up to her decision. My memory, 'cause I can't find the post anymore, is that the more she invested, the more he invested back. The more her husband saw of her being generous and kind the less he felt needy and desperate to get his share. By putting up and shutting up she upped the value of the marriage to them
both and they both began to invest more and more and more. And they stumbled, but the more they had behind them of caring and kindness and generosity, the more quickly they recovered from the fall.
I know that it works in my own life. The more I give, the more I enjoy giving, the more what comes back wraps me up and makes me smile. I can give a lot with a martyred air, but if I stop acting the role of the long suffering, and start embracing the joy of my life, well, it becomes a gift to give. And when I hear the voice of discontent, the voice of "all that I do" beginning in my brain, I do everything I can to dance out the voices that are about how good I got it, 'cause I got it real good.
You don't have to justify your decisions to this list. Your actions, your decisions are not something anyone here can make you accountable for. We are just a bunch of folks who've come together to try and figure out the best ways to unschool happily and better. One of the biggest ways of doing that is to make the partnership that your children live in and with a good and strong partnership. It is the lucky and the few who manage to move from one marriage through divorce and continue to unschool the children from that marriage. And it is even luckier children who come through a divorce unscathed; I was relatively ambivelant when my parents got divorced, but more and more I've grown to regret their decision.
I have a fairly quiet, at the moment, list (http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/) that is about looking for ways to make a partnership sing with unschooling as the framework.
Schuyler
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
both and they both began to invest more and more and more. And they stumbled, but the more they had behind them of caring and kindness and generosity, the more quickly they recovered from the fall.
I know that it works in my own life. The more I give, the more I enjoy giving, the more what comes back wraps me up and makes me smile. I can give a lot with a martyred air, but if I stop acting the role of the long suffering, and start embracing the joy of my life, well, it becomes a gift to give. And when I hear the voice of discontent, the voice of "all that I do" beginning in my brain, I do everything I can to dance out the voices that are about how good I got it, 'cause I got it real good.
You don't have to justify your decisions to this list. Your actions, your decisions are not something anyone here can make you accountable for. We are just a bunch of folks who've come together to try and figure out the best ways to unschool happily and better. One of the biggest ways of doing that is to make the partnership that your children live in and with a good and strong partnership. It is the lucky and the few who manage to move from one marriage through divorce and continue to unschool the children from that marriage. And it is even luckier children who come through a divorce unscathed; I was relatively ambivelant when my parents got divorced, but more and more I've grown to regret their decision.
I have a fairly quiet, at the moment, list (http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/) that is about looking for ways to make a partnership sing with unschooling as the framework.
Schuyler
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My son was okay with this a long time ago. The divorce was 6 years
ago-=-
There's a book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce," by
Wallerstein, Lewis and Blakeslee. I just got a copy but haven't read
it yet. My friend Lori Odhner has and she does marriage counselling.
It changed her views, and when she got a copy of The Big Book of
Unschooling (I sent her one because she was one of those first La
Leche League leaders in my life and I had named her) she got excited
and asked me to come and speak at a marriage conference. The funding
for that has fallen through so there might not be one next year, but
she lives in a smallish town in a limited college community and is
having a hard time saying those things to people she knows so well so
she wanted someone from outside the community.
People don't want to talk or think about it. And in the case of the
boy mentioned above, it can't be changed now, but for any family not
divorced who considers it sometimes, it's worth knowing some of the
downsides.
I don't want to shame people who are divorced, but I don't want this
list to be a divorce support or divorce encouragement group, either.
Before I read the post to which I'm responding, I had written this on
another list:
------------
I had a long exchange with someone I know only on facebook and
online. She asked if I had heard from another such friend. I hadn't.
It was an appeal for help I couldn't give. This has happened before,
and it's sad, and it will happen again, but I thought discussing it
here might help a little bit with future prevention.
Divorce proceedings were so far advanced that the father was asking
for full custody because of unschooling. I was asked to provide some
sort of proof or defense. There isn't one.
There is no defense. There is no guarantee or right or freedom that
lets someone bypass the judicial system. Unschooling doesn't outrank
laws or social expectations.
The time that I can help is before the divorce, before the unschooling
even, and that's reminding people that marriage is more important than
unschooling. If that sounds stupid, maybe think of it as a peaceful
marriage with unschooling as an agreed-upon element being the most
stable unschooling situation I have ever seen or can imagine. (Well
people do imagine perfect other situations, but they're in the rare-to-
imaginary category.)
Examples I've used before have been that deciding to unschool is like
buying a yacht. It's a big deal and both partners need to agree on it
or it could cause a divorce. Switching to unschooling is like
switching to an unusual religion. The only way a family can change
religions is for the family (not just one parent) to convert.
In any case in which unschooling is the cause of a divorce, those
children have been done a great disservice at best, and could
potentially be separated from any possibility of unschooling, and
separated from their mother.
All the unschooling sites and books ever written or ever to come can
change that. Pretty words can't change that.
It's not just marriages, but that would be another topic. There are
single moms who want to impose unschooling on their parents or
roommates or love interests. I can't make other people make my yacht
payments.
I can't go to court as an expert and prove unschooling can work after
a divorce. Nobody can.
Sandra
----------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ago-=-
There's a book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce," by
Wallerstein, Lewis and Blakeslee. I just got a copy but haven't read
it yet. My friend Lori Odhner has and she does marriage counselling.
It changed her views, and when she got a copy of The Big Book of
Unschooling (I sent her one because she was one of those first La
Leche League leaders in my life and I had named her) she got excited
and asked me to come and speak at a marriage conference. The funding
for that has fallen through so there might not be one next year, but
she lives in a smallish town in a limited college community and is
having a hard time saying those things to people she knows so well so
she wanted someone from outside the community.
People don't want to talk or think about it. And in the case of the
boy mentioned above, it can't be changed now, but for any family not
divorced who considers it sometimes, it's worth knowing some of the
downsides.
I don't want to shame people who are divorced, but I don't want this
list to be a divorce support or divorce encouragement group, either.
Before I read the post to which I'm responding, I had written this on
another list:
------------
I had a long exchange with someone I know only on facebook and
online. She asked if I had heard from another such friend. I hadn't.
It was an appeal for help I couldn't give. This has happened before,
and it's sad, and it will happen again, but I thought discussing it
here might help a little bit with future prevention.
Divorce proceedings were so far advanced that the father was asking
for full custody because of unschooling. I was asked to provide some
sort of proof or defense. There isn't one.
There is no defense. There is no guarantee or right or freedom that
lets someone bypass the judicial system. Unschooling doesn't outrank
laws or social expectations.
The time that I can help is before the divorce, before the unschooling
even, and that's reminding people that marriage is more important than
unschooling. If that sounds stupid, maybe think of it as a peaceful
marriage with unschooling as an agreed-upon element being the most
stable unschooling situation I have ever seen or can imagine. (Well
people do imagine perfect other situations, but they're in the rare-to-
imaginary category.)
Examples I've used before have been that deciding to unschool is like
buying a yacht. It's a big deal and both partners need to agree on it
or it could cause a divorce. Switching to unschooling is like
switching to an unusual religion. The only way a family can change
religions is for the family (not just one parent) to convert.
In any case in which unschooling is the cause of a divorce, those
children have been done a great disservice at best, and could
potentially be separated from any possibility of unschooling, and
separated from their mother.
All the unschooling sites and books ever written or ever to come can
change that. Pretty words can't change that.
It's not just marriages, but that would be another topic. There are
single moms who want to impose unschooling on their parents or
roommates or love interests. I can't make other people make my yacht
payments.
I can't go to court as an expert and prove unschooling can work after
a divorce. Nobody can.
Sandra
----------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==My first husband and I were having issues by the second year of our
I've gone through times when I thought my husband didn't care. He had no interest in working on making our marriage and our family life better. He was oblivious to what anyone else thought or felt. I've been angry and hurt. I've been self-righteous. I've felt unloved and completely alone. I've thought we had no passion, no romance. I had no romantic feelings toward him at all, thinking we were just friends, if even that. Every time he'd leave and come home, I'd feel like we were starting all over again. The man I was married to, who was going to come back into my home to live and sleep in my bed, was a stranger. I had to work at feeling connected to him again if that was what I wanted. I couldn't just sit back and wait for him to do what I wanted. How would he know?
Another interesting twist on that is that during the post-deployment debriefings, the Marines are told not to come home and just push right in and start taking things over. They are told to come home almost like outside observers for a while until they get a feel for how things are and can step back into their roles without stepping on someone else's toes. People definitely change over those times. That can certainly account for much of the seemingly disconnectedness and aloofness.
Also, I cannot even begin to understand the things he saw and did when he was away. I can't understand how those things have affected him. He doesn't tell me about them because he doesn't want that stuff to touch us. I respect that. Honestly, I don't think I'd want to know. That means he has a lot of things inside himself that he has to wrestle with. He needs a lot of down time. Maybe he's even afraid to get too close to us again because he knows he'll just have to leave us again and he remembers how painful it was the first time. It's easier to stay disconnected.
I'm not sure what my point with that is. I guess that, like others have said, it's up to each person to make a commitment to the marriage and do what they need to do to make things work regardless of what the other person does (except in cases of abuse, of course). I've not been through a divorce with children but I have been a single mother. I don't ever want to go back to that. I am a single mother in a lot of ways now with my husband gone so much but I've got it better than I did, I think, because on top of everything else I don't have to also work outside the home. My husband gives us everything he earns and I am so grateful for that. He has given me the ability to be home with my children so that we can unschool. I know that he loves us and is committed to us even if he doesn't always show it the way I want him to just by that action alone.
I don't think I'd have to worry about not being able to unschool if we got a divorce. I'm not naive enough to think my husband would never object to it but I think I know where things stand enough to know he probably wouldn't fight unschooling unless there were some obvious problems with the kids. There are other reasons that I think it's important for us to stay married and I'm not going to jeopardize those things.
Alysia
Alysia
> marriage, tension and arguments about money were a pretty common aspect ofThis describes my life in many ways except for the indiscretion (that I know of). My husband has been away from his family more than he's been with us since he joined the Marines 8 years ago. Every time he leaves, especially when it's for a long deployment, he comes back a little more disconnected from the rest of us. He's been away for a long time. The kids have grown more than he could've imagined. They are different people from when he left. He's only had to think of himself and his job for months and months, living like a bachelor for all intents and purposes. It takes a long time to readjust to family life after that. When he's barely home as long as he's been gone before leaving again, none of us have the time needed to fully assimilate him back into the family life. We struggle with this all the time.
> our marriage prior to his enlistment in the military (which eased some of
> the tensions and some of the arguments about money, but not all). We'd been
> married almost 5 yrs and Craig was 8 mos old when my husband enlisted. The
> amount of time he was gone (4 years worth of time gone out of the 5-1/2
> years on the one ship) meant there was not much time to work on our
> marriage. A one-night stand he had while deployed - and I did not find out
> about until just before we moved back to California - also weakened what
> there was of our marriage. By the time I sought divorce, we'd been married
> almost 15 years and he'd been in the Navy for 10 years, and our relationship
> was more like roommates than spouses - we led separate lives.==
I've gone through times when I thought my husband didn't care. He had no interest in working on making our marriage and our family life better. He was oblivious to what anyone else thought or felt. I've been angry and hurt. I've been self-righteous. I've felt unloved and completely alone. I've thought we had no passion, no romance. I had no romantic feelings toward him at all, thinking we were just friends, if even that. Every time he'd leave and come home, I'd feel like we were starting all over again. The man I was married to, who was going to come back into my home to live and sleep in my bed, was a stranger. I had to work at feeling connected to him again if that was what I wanted. I couldn't just sit back and wait for him to do what I wanted. How would he know?
Another interesting twist on that is that during the post-deployment debriefings, the Marines are told not to come home and just push right in and start taking things over. They are told to come home almost like outside observers for a while until they get a feel for how things are and can step back into their roles without stepping on someone else's toes. People definitely change over those times. That can certainly account for much of the seemingly disconnectedness and aloofness.
Also, I cannot even begin to understand the things he saw and did when he was away. I can't understand how those things have affected him. He doesn't tell me about them because he doesn't want that stuff to touch us. I respect that. Honestly, I don't think I'd want to know. That means he has a lot of things inside himself that he has to wrestle with. He needs a lot of down time. Maybe he's even afraid to get too close to us again because he knows he'll just have to leave us again and he remembers how painful it was the first time. It's easier to stay disconnected.
I'm not sure what my point with that is. I guess that, like others have said, it's up to each person to make a commitment to the marriage and do what they need to do to make things work regardless of what the other person does (except in cases of abuse, of course). I've not been through a divorce with children but I have been a single mother. I don't ever want to go back to that. I am a single mother in a lot of ways now with my husband gone so much but I've got it better than I did, I think, because on top of everything else I don't have to also work outside the home. My husband gives us everything he earns and I am so grateful for that. He has given me the ability to be home with my children so that we can unschool. I know that he loves us and is committed to us even if he doesn't always show it the way I want him to just by that action alone.
I don't think I'd have to worry about not being able to unschool if we got a divorce. I'm not naive enough to think my husband would never object to it but I think I know where things stand enough to know he probably wouldn't fight unschooling unless there were some obvious problems with the kids. There are other reasons that I think it's important for us to stay married and I'm not going to jeopardize those things.
Alysia
Alysia
Robin Bentley
> By the time I sought divorce, we'd been marriedMy dad was a career officer in the Canadian Navy. He was gone a lot,
> almost 15 years and he'd been in the Navy for 10 years, and our
> relationship
> was more like roommates than spouses - we led separate lives. He
> came home
> after being gone for a week, sat in his chair and watched the golf
> channel
> all day Friday, went golfing early in the morning on Saturday, had
> little to
> do with his son or me... and expressed no real emotion for either of
> us, and
> very rarely even said a whole lot to either of us.
too, first in WWII, during my brother's early years, then on base
inspections when my sister and I were kids.
Dad was deeply affected by what he'd seen during the war, though he
never talked about it. I think that throughout his life he was
depressed and self-medicated with alcohol. When my mum died, they'd
been married 68 years, some of them very tough indeed.
I wonder if that silence and lack of emotion might have been your
husband's reaction to things he saw and did. PTSD is real.
I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty at all. Just that maybe it
will help to think about what might have been going on for him and
blame him less. I know when I came to that realization about my dad, I
understood better. It didn't excuse all he did, but *I* felt more at
peace that it wasn't *my* fault. That might be something you can talk
about with your son.
Robin B.
Laura Wray
Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
<snip>I wonder if that silence and lack of emotion might have been your
husband's reaction to things he saw and did. PTSD is real.
I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty at all. Just that maybe it
will help to think about what might have been going on for him and
blame him less. I know when I came to that realization about my dad, I
understood better. It didn't excuse all he did, but *I* felt more at
peace that it wasn't *my* fault. That might be something you can talk
about with your son. <unsnip>
This is a good point, and had my husband's ship been involved in any action
in the time he was on it, I'd totally agree with you. His ship was involved
in contradrug operations in Central and South America, but they never
actually saw any action. They spent a lot of time getting the ship ready to
leave, and then once underway floating around, hitting various ports, but
not actually doing much of anything (his words, not mine). He helped
decommission the ship and was on shore duty months before 9/11. The base he
was stationed at during 9/11 was a smallish one in western Washington, and
the most they had to deal with were the occasional drunken soldier. I think
the last base he was at while we were married was the one that made it the
most difficult for us - gone for most of the week, home for a few days, gone
again for two weeks, home for a few days, gone for most of the week, rinse
and repeat for two years. As a matter of fact, that's how it was on the
ship, gone for a week or two, home for a few days, gone for a month, home
for a week, gone for a while, home for a little bit, gone on deployment,
home for leave and then gone for something else or other - most of the
*something else or other* was goodwill trips - they went to Alaska, to
Oregon, to California, all time away, time out of contact. The best time of
our marriage was while he was on shore duty in Washington - four years where
he was home more than he was gone (but worked erratic shifts). We
connected better, but he still shunned most interactions with Craig.
It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post caused such a
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce, mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.
Laura W
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<snip>I wonder if that silence and lack of emotion might have been your
husband's reaction to things he saw and did. PTSD is real.
I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty at all. Just that maybe it
will help to think about what might have been going on for him and
blame him less. I know when I came to that realization about my dad, I
understood better. It didn't excuse all he did, but *I* felt more at
peace that it wasn't *my* fault. That might be something you can talk
about with your son. <unsnip>
This is a good point, and had my husband's ship been involved in any action
in the time he was on it, I'd totally agree with you. His ship was involved
in contradrug operations in Central and South America, but they never
actually saw any action. They spent a lot of time getting the ship ready to
leave, and then once underway floating around, hitting various ports, but
not actually doing much of anything (his words, not mine). He helped
decommission the ship and was on shore duty months before 9/11. The base he
was stationed at during 9/11 was a smallish one in western Washington, and
the most they had to deal with were the occasional drunken soldier. I think
the last base he was at while we were married was the one that made it the
most difficult for us - gone for most of the week, home for a few days, gone
again for two weeks, home for a few days, gone for most of the week, rinse
and repeat for two years. As a matter of fact, that's how it was on the
ship, gone for a week or two, home for a few days, gone for a month, home
for a week, gone for a while, home for a little bit, gone on deployment,
home for leave and then gone for something else or other - most of the
*something else or other* was goodwill trips - they went to Alaska, to
Oregon, to California, all time away, time out of contact. The best time of
our marriage was while he was on shore duty in Washington - four years where
he was home more than he was gone (but worked erratic shifts). We
connected better, but he still shunned most interactions with Craig.
It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post caused such a
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce, mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.
Laura W
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post
caused such a
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce,
mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a
topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.-=-
It's not furor, it's discussion.
It's not anger, it's clarification for the benefit of some number of
two thousand and some list members.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
caused such a
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce,
mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a
topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.-=-
It's not furor, it's discussion.
It's not anger, it's clarification for the benefit of some number of
two thousand and some list members.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***My son was okay with this a long time ago. The divorce was 6 years ago. We
sat down and talked about the divorce and what it meant for the two of us
(him and me), several times in the first year. ***
This does not change the fact that you, his mom, someone he knows and trusts, took him away from his dad. You turned it into (him and me) and it was never about him, it was about you and your husband. It could've been about you and your husband and him. Obviously you can't go back and undo that. Kids are never ok with divorce. Sometimes they overcome it and move on because it's human nature to adapt to ones environment. You've helped your son adapt and that's a good thing. It might be good to know that it was still about you, you could have helped him adapt in an environment that included his dad.
***The reason I KNOW is because since removing corn syrup (which was now 5
years ago) the behavior has happened only once***
***So the fact that I suspected food was not because I was being dismissive of his
feelings, but because the behavior wasn't new entirely. The reason I hadn't
seen it as often is because we didn't have soda around much when I was
living with my ex. ***
So, at the age of 11, a normally unsteady and sometimes tumultuous time in a kid's life, he went through the loss of a parent, moving, acceptance of a new partner of moms, dietary change, new parenting philosophy, new friends, loss of old ones, and you still think it's all about the corn syrup. I don't doubt that some people are sensitive to corn syrup. I've seen it. I know what that looks like. I think you are lucky, and it could be partly because you are unschooling, that your son didn't drown in the deep end.
***I can tell you that he's been a happier child since the divorce - in
large part because he now has a dad who is present in his life.***
While your new husband and your son's step dad may be a great guy, he will never replace your son's dad. Even if your son and his step dad grow a great bond between them, at some point in your son's life he'll seek out his father. I've seen this happen many times in many different families, in many different ways. To say that your son has been happier since the divorce, is more about your own self soothing. You won't ever know. Once a person has gone down a path, one that they can't go back on, they have no way of knowing which way may have been better, or happier making.
*** This was
happening more often, but not all the time, not even regularly, and that's
eventually what led me to suspect food. I'm not the only parent that has
noticed a cause/effect relationship between corn syrup and their child's
behavior - it's due to the way it's processed, not due to the fact that it's
a sweetener.***
***To people who have no food issues, those of us who've
found relief - both adults and children - utilizing the Feingold program
seem like nutcases***
This is from the Feingold website:
"Numerous studies show that certain synthetic food additives can have serious learning, behavior, and/or health effects for sensitive people."
What makes a person sensitive? I don't think it's always so simple to just blame food. Food can cause negative reactions in some people, it does cause reactions for everyone. Our bodies use the ingredients in varying ways. It's all part of our biochemical processes. How people react to their environment and stress is also a biochemical process. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? That's the sort of argument this is.
I get really sick when I eat beef or pork. When I was a kid, I used to choke those meats down against my will. Many times, I used honey to do so. I can't eat honey anymore. My naturopath had posed the idea that it might be guilty by association. What a person reacts to in their diet could very much be a part of their environment as a whole. I don't discount the fact that there are foods and other things that do cause allergic reactions in people. People who are allergic to cats, generally can't be around cats without sneezing and getting watery eyes. I've also heard that there are ways to bathe cats to make their fur less allergenic. It involved vinegar or something... anyone who actually wants to do that, has GOT to really love cats, because boy oh boy, have you ever tried to bathe one?
Perhaps corn syrup is like honey. It's guilty by association. It seems far better to not make such a big deal about the corn syrup and let your son avoid foods he doesn't like and eat what he does like, corn syrup or not. It could be a choice. A small choice. This kid had one of the biggest things in his life taken away from him, it wasn't his choice and he was powerless to do anything about it. Corn syrup, he has power over, why make it something else that he's powerless about?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sat down and talked about the divorce and what it meant for the two of us
(him and me), several times in the first year. ***
This does not change the fact that you, his mom, someone he knows and trusts, took him away from his dad. You turned it into (him and me) and it was never about him, it was about you and your husband. It could've been about you and your husband and him. Obviously you can't go back and undo that. Kids are never ok with divorce. Sometimes they overcome it and move on because it's human nature to adapt to ones environment. You've helped your son adapt and that's a good thing. It might be good to know that it was still about you, you could have helped him adapt in an environment that included his dad.
***The reason I KNOW is because since removing corn syrup (which was now 5
years ago) the behavior has happened only once***
***So the fact that I suspected food was not because I was being dismissive of his
feelings, but because the behavior wasn't new entirely. The reason I hadn't
seen it as often is because we didn't have soda around much when I was
living with my ex. ***
So, at the age of 11, a normally unsteady and sometimes tumultuous time in a kid's life, he went through the loss of a parent, moving, acceptance of a new partner of moms, dietary change, new parenting philosophy, new friends, loss of old ones, and you still think it's all about the corn syrup. I don't doubt that some people are sensitive to corn syrup. I've seen it. I know what that looks like. I think you are lucky, and it could be partly because you are unschooling, that your son didn't drown in the deep end.
***I can tell you that he's been a happier child since the divorce - in
large part because he now has a dad who is present in his life.***
While your new husband and your son's step dad may be a great guy, he will never replace your son's dad. Even if your son and his step dad grow a great bond between them, at some point in your son's life he'll seek out his father. I've seen this happen many times in many different families, in many different ways. To say that your son has been happier since the divorce, is more about your own self soothing. You won't ever know. Once a person has gone down a path, one that they can't go back on, they have no way of knowing which way may have been better, or happier making.
*** This was
happening more often, but not all the time, not even regularly, and that's
eventually what led me to suspect food. I'm not the only parent that has
noticed a cause/effect relationship between corn syrup and their child's
behavior - it's due to the way it's processed, not due to the fact that it's
a sweetener.***
***To people who have no food issues, those of us who've
found relief - both adults and children - utilizing the Feingold program
seem like nutcases***
This is from the Feingold website:
"Numerous studies show that certain synthetic food additives can have serious learning, behavior, and/or health effects for sensitive people."
What makes a person sensitive? I don't think it's always so simple to just blame food. Food can cause negative reactions in some people, it does cause reactions for everyone. Our bodies use the ingredients in varying ways. It's all part of our biochemical processes. How people react to their environment and stress is also a biochemical process. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? That's the sort of argument this is.
I get really sick when I eat beef or pork. When I was a kid, I used to choke those meats down against my will. Many times, I used honey to do so. I can't eat honey anymore. My naturopath had posed the idea that it might be guilty by association. What a person reacts to in their diet could very much be a part of their environment as a whole. I don't discount the fact that there are foods and other things that do cause allergic reactions in people. People who are allergic to cats, generally can't be around cats without sneezing and getting watery eyes. I've also heard that there are ways to bathe cats to make their fur less allergenic. It involved vinegar or something... anyone who actually wants to do that, has GOT to really love cats, because boy oh boy, have you ever tried to bathe one?
Perhaps corn syrup is like honey. It's guilty by association. It seems far better to not make such a big deal about the corn syrup and let your son avoid foods he doesn't like and eat what he does like, corn syrup or not. It could be a choice. A small choice. This kid had one of the biggest things in his life taken away from him, it wasn't his choice and he was powerless to do anything about it. Corn syrup, he has power over, why make it something else that he's powerless about?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Well, I'm not angry!
> It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post
> caused such a
> furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce,
> mentioned as a
> part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a
> topic
> that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.
When anyone posts about their life, list members tend to tease out
what could be looked at in new ways. That includes *anything* that can
affect the happy life of kids. Divorce is a biggie, for instance.
As Joyce wrote:
"The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")"
This also means that if a poster wants the list members to stay on
"their" topic, it may not happen if there are important clues or
information to be discussed to help others better understand
unschooling.
Expect anyone's experience to be examined here, if it will help
others. Not, as I said, to make anyone feel guilty, but to help
*everyone* see principles and concepts more clearly.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post caused such a
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce, mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.***
But, it's not all water under the bridge. Your son lives with your choice everyday. You, and even he, may have come to terms with it, but it still happened and it still impacts your life and his. I might help to see, instead of anger, deep concern. I haven't seen any anger anywhere in this thread. Divorce, even the best ones, if they involve a child, there is damage, there is loss. To dismiss that because it happened 6 yrs ago may ignore all the wakes it created. It's like an earth quake with after shocks. Sometimes after shocks are as big as the actual earth quake and sometimes they are smaller. You can't go back and stop the earth quake from happening and you can't stop the after shocks, but you can make your lives easier to live with them.
***We connected better, but he still shunned most interactions with Craig.***
A lot of dads don't relate well to young children. This is especially true if they aren't around a lot. Dads need bonding a touch to stimulate the hormonal bonding process. If a dad isn't able to do that, it doesn't mean they won't eventually get there. It bothers me that you are still using that as an excuse or reason for the divorce, the lack of dad/son interactions. Kids do pick up on that and are not likely to blame the dad as much as they blame themselves.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce, mentioned as a
part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a topic
that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.***
But, it's not all water under the bridge. Your son lives with your choice everyday. You, and even he, may have come to terms with it, but it still happened and it still impacts your life and his. I might help to see, instead of anger, deep concern. I haven't seen any anger anywhere in this thread. Divorce, even the best ones, if they involve a child, there is damage, there is loss. To dismiss that because it happened 6 yrs ago may ignore all the wakes it created. It's like an earth quake with after shocks. Sometimes after shocks are as big as the actual earth quake and sometimes they are smaller. You can't go back and stop the earth quake from happening and you can't stop the after shocks, but you can make your lives easier to live with them.
***We connected better, but he still shunned most interactions with Craig.***
A lot of dads don't relate well to young children. This is especially true if they aren't around a lot. Dads need bonding a touch to stimulate the hormonal bonding process. If a dad isn't able to do that, it doesn't mean they won't eventually get there. It bothers me that you are still using that as an excuse or reason for the divorce, the lack of dad/son interactions. Kids do pick up on that and are not likely to blame the dad as much as they blame themselves.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 29, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
an empty marriage.
The message from divorced parents that kids are fine with the divorce
because they seem fine is accepted because parents want it to be as
painless as kids are pretending it is. It's hugely helpful to hear
from adults that things weren't fine. It helps those who are thinking
of divorce as one more reason to work harder at the marriage. It helps
those who've already been divorced to put extra effort into connecting
with the kids and making sure they stay connected with their other
parent.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> it's clarification for the benefit of some number ofAnd it may help someone who is thinking divorce might be better than
> two thousand and some list members.
an empty marriage.
The message from divorced parents that kids are fine with the divorce
because they seem fine is accepted because parents want it to be as
painless as kids are pretending it is. It's hugely helpful to hear
from adults that things weren't fine. It helps those who are thinking
of divorce as one more reason to work harder at the marriage. It helps
those who've already been divorced to put extra effort into connecting
with the kids and making sure they stay connected with their other
parent.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Halldorson
Joyce wrote:
++>>And it may help someone who is thinking divorce might be better than
an empty marriage.
The message from divorced parents that kids are fine with the divorce
because they seem fine is accepted because parents want it to be as
painless as kids are pretending it is. It's hugely helpful to hear
from adults that things weren't fine. It helps those who are thinking
of divorce as one more reason to work harder at the marriage. It helps
those who've already been divorced to put extra effort into connecting
with the kids and making sure they stay connected with their other
parent.<<++
I've shared this story a lot recently but my husband and I nearly split up...we actually separated. This was a year and a half ago. I wrote a blog entry about what our kids gave us on our anniversary after we decided to stay together.
http://kelly.halldorson.com/blog/?p=231
The split killed us financially. We are still recovering. Our kids went from living in a big Victorian home all with their own decorated rooms to a beat up trailer with the boys sharing one small room and my daughter's new room has enough space for a bed. We also lost our Suburban and now drive a beat up little $500 subaru. I only mention the *stuff* because it represents a lot of the sacrifice they have had to make but they are all so so so much happier we are together as a family.
I think the separation did do a lot of damage. I wish it didn't. But I know had the separation been permanent the damage would be far worse.
Just some thoughts.
Another suggestion for reading about the effects on kids and practical advice on how to make your marriage stronger. I would recommend Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis. The focus is solution-based and mindfulness partnering.
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++>>And it may help someone who is thinking divorce might be better than
an empty marriage.
The message from divorced parents that kids are fine with the divorce
because they seem fine is accepted because parents want it to be as
painless as kids are pretending it is. It's hugely helpful to hear
from adults that things weren't fine. It helps those who are thinking
of divorce as one more reason to work harder at the marriage. It helps
those who've already been divorced to put extra effort into connecting
with the kids and making sure they stay connected with their other
parent.<<++
I've shared this story a lot recently but my husband and I nearly split up...we actually separated. This was a year and a half ago. I wrote a blog entry about what our kids gave us on our anniversary after we decided to stay together.
http://kelly.halldorson.com/blog/?p=231
The split killed us financially. We are still recovering. Our kids went from living in a big Victorian home all with their own decorated rooms to a beat up trailer with the boys sharing one small room and my daughter's new room has enough space for a bed. We also lost our Suburban and now drive a beat up little $500 subaru. I only mention the *stuff* because it represents a lot of the sacrifice they have had to make but they are all so so so much happier we are together as a family.
I think the separation did do a lot of damage. I wish it didn't. But I know had the separation been permanent the damage would be far worse.
Just some thoughts.
Another suggestion for reading about the effects on kids and practical advice on how to make your marriage stronger. I would recommend Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis. The focus is solution-based and mindfulness partnering.
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/29/2010 10:50 AM, Laura Wray wrote:
others who are experiencing marital difficulties and considering whether
divorce is their best option.
I didn't see any anger at all, so that's confusing.
As a child of an amicable divorce, I don't believe it is ever water
under the bridge for the child. The parent may know it was the best
option, but through a child's eyes (even when the child is grown), it is
likely to always seem like the parents could and should have done better.
-pam
> It's all water under the bridge now, and I regret that my post causedIts all water under the bridge for you. But this discussion will help
> such a
> furor on the list. I had no idea that the subject of divorce,
> mentioned as a
> part of the story and not the topic itself, would wind up becoming a topic
> that caused such anger from many who've posted. I'm sorry.
others who are experiencing marital difficulties and considering whether
divorce is their best option.
I didn't see any anger at all, so that's confusing.
As a child of an amicable divorce, I don't believe it is ever water
under the bridge for the child. The parent may know it was the best
option, but through a child's eyes (even when the child is grown), it is
likely to always seem like the parents could and should have done better.
-pam
k
>>>I get really sick when I eat beef or pork. When I was a kid, I used to choke those meats down against my will. Many times, I used honey to do so. I can't eat honey anymore. My naturopath had posed the idea that it might be guilty by association.<<<I don't know about guilt but I do think association is what it is. Most likely.
My sister and Karl and I were talking about beer. He was saying he
didn't like beer. My sister was saying she likes wine and some she
likes a lot but beer always reminds of horse pee because, and she
said, "you know it's made from the same thing... it's the same process
you know." She's a horsewoman so that's what beer means to her: too
close to horse pee.
I do think that corn syrup for the kid in past posts could be so
closely associated around the time of family troubles.
~Katherine