vargasfamily4

Hi all,

Our family recently moved to another state and we are now living closer to relatives. One of them is a cousin with children the same age and we've gotten together on a couple of occasions. Most of the time, the kids enjoy themselves and constantly ask about their cousins and want to get together. But there have been at least 3 instances where the oldest child has been hostile to my 7 yr old son.

(1) Kids were playing with foam swords and my son hit the boy in the cheek (he was aiming for the shoulder)and because he didn't apologize when the kid asked him to, he proceeded to do a choke hold on my son. The boy's mom and I were just outside the room so we went quickly inside and she "disciplined" her son (talked to, apology to my son and grounded in his room). (2) We go to the same church and the kids were together for a particular event. They were singing and the kid decided that because my son chose not to sing, it would be ok to hit him in the face "because he is just plain silly". My son didn't react to this and told us in the car on the way home. (3) Today at church, kids had to be together again for another event and same situation with the songs, only this time he used force to open and close my son's mouth. This time a teacher saw him and he was stopped. Oh and he also asked my son's help in stealing some other kid's book to which my son flatly refused.

We've had discussions about what might work and my son has come up with a few things he thinks will do the trick but when the situation happens again, he does nothing because he says that (1) he'll get in trouble (at Church, not at home) (2) the cousin is stronger (3) he just stunned and doesn't know what to do at the moment.

For now my mother's instinct is telling me to limit our family's interaction with theirs and just be there for my son, but I do worry because we'll keep seeing them at family gatherings (where I can see what's happening) and at Church (where I can't). And sadly, this might not be the last time he has to deal with a bully.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Marilu

Cary

you wrote:****but I do worry because we'll keep seeing them at family gatherings (where I can see what's happening)******

When my 2 older children are fighting (boys ages almost 7 and 4 1/2) I like to get involved by jumping in with an exciting game that is really, really fun for all of us. AT their ages they like cops and robbers. They bond as robbers in jail (the couch) and I "fall asleep" next to the jail with my "keys" hanging off me that they steal and then escape. The 2 year old gets in on it too. Lots of whooping and laughing at silly ol' Mom. :o) It distracts them number 1, it builds their bond and our family bond, and gives them really positive memories and examples to draw from for when they are alone again (with me in the next room) and they maybe feel stuck. I have seen them choose those same games again to help themselves out. The oldest has gotten very good at saving face for himself and for his brother. In essence, he is learning to choose what feels more joyful and bypassing the fight (sometimes). Perhaps in your case, you can do something with both of them that gets them laughing and really enjoying each other's company. Share with them by your own joy what you clearly adore about each of them.

****and at Church (where I can't). And sadly, this might not be the last time he has to deal with a bully.*****

I'm unclear why you added this? It struck me that you might be saying that there is something good to be derived from learning to put up with and/or defend one's self against a bully...? Is that what you were thinking? I don't think I need to get into a car accident to learn how I'm going to deal with future car accidents. If he can not be alone with this cousin for the time being, then I'd say find a way. Can he be with you in your part of the church for now?

Cary

Robin Bentley

> For now my mother's instinct is telling me to limit our family's
> interaction with theirs and just be there for my son, but I do worry
> because we'll keep seeing them at family gatherings (where I can see
> what's happening) and at Church (where I can't).

Why does your son have to be in a different place in church? Can't he
stay with you?

> And sadly, this might not be the last time he has to deal with a
> bully.

No, but while he's young, you can be the wall the bully has to climb
over to get to your son. I would be there with him whenever the cousin
is around.

Robin B.

wtexans

===we'll keep seeing them at family gatherings (where I can see what's happening)===

At family gatherings, would you feel comfortable hanging out with your son and whichever of the cousins he enjoys playing with (if you don't do this already)?

My son is very nonconfrontational and has some younger cousins who can be quite pushy. He's 11 and is a bit more comfortable now speaking up to them if they're being pushy, but when he was younger he didn't like doing that, so at family gatherings my husband or I would often hang out with the kids -- the kids had fun with us and we with them, and Andrew knew we were right there to help if a cousin started being pushy and he wasn't able to find a way through it on his own.


===and at Church (where I can't)===

What are some options for church? Can he stay with you rather than go to Sunday School (or wherever the kids are segregated to)? If he can't stay with you, can you go with him, maybe serve as an extra pair of hands for his group? Can you worship at a different time? I know some churches have two or three services on the weekend -- maybe your family could attend a service not attended by the family of that particular cousin?

I don't know what the dynamics are with your extended family re: church, but I think your son feeling safe at church should be the priority, and I think it's important that he knows it's a priority.

Glenda

Marilu Vargas

"Why does your son have to be in a different place in church? Can't he
stay with you?"






He can stay with us and has been with us occasionally, but he chooses to go to the Sunday class. He's in a different group than his cousin, so the don't see each other except for when they do special gatherings with all children in the same age group.







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Marilu Vargas

"If he can't stay with you, can you go with him, maybe serve as an extra pair of hands for his group?"


Because he would rather go to Sunday School, I think registering as a volunteer and definitely being there whenever they have these large group gatherings will help.










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Kris

Would your son okay with a discussion with the parents and both boys?
Lanora was bullied by a couple of kids in our neighborhood and I asked her
permission to talk with them. We talked as a group; their mom, the kids,
Lanora and me. I think it made a much bigger impression than punishment
would have. Lanora felt freer to say how it made her feel and often that is
all it takes for a bully, to see the emotional impact.

After this short meeting both kids became the best of friends with Lanora,
this lead to many other friendships for them with other neighborhood kids.
It sounds like the parents are aware and if it were me I would do as much as
I could to continue spending time with the family.

I think the experience Lanora had greatly influenced her positive attitude
towards people and the positive effect on the bullies more than made up what
she went through.
--
Kris - mom to Lanora, Jonathan and mom-of-love to Sean

�Be yourself, everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde

www.krisspeed.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

That's a great story. I wish we could have done that. I would still
like to but the parents themselves are such bullies to their own kids
and tho I have subtly talked about *me* in the context of not using
punishment, it's the elephant in the room.

I wish all parents could be aware as Lanora's friend's parents are.

~Katherine




On 4/20/10, Kris <kris1956@...> wrote:
> Would your son okay with a discussion with the parents and both boys?
> Lanora was bullied by a couple of kids in our neighborhood and I asked her
> permission to talk with them. We talked as a group; their mom, the kids,
> Lanora and me. I think it made a much bigger impression than punishment
> would have. Lanora felt freer to say how it made her feel and often that is
> all it takes for a bully, to see the emotional impact.
>
> After this short meeting both kids became the best of friends with Lanora,
> this lead to many other friendships for them with other neighborhood kids.
> It sounds like the parents are aware and if it were me I would do as much as
> I could to continue spending time with the family.
>
> I think the experience Lanora had greatly influenced her positive attitude
> towards people and the positive effect on the bullies more than made up what
> she went through.
> --
> Kris - mom to Lanora, Jonathan and mom-of-love to Sean
>
> 釘e yourself, everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde
>
> www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

vargasfamily4

"Would your son okay with a discussion with the parents and both boys?"

I love how the parents and the other children were responsive to your daughter. I'll talk it over with my son and see how he feels about it.
I'm sure my cousin would like to know how her son is behaving and hopefully it might lead to additional conversation between them as a family a better understanding of their son. I do worry about how the dad will take it, he tends to be very strict and authoritative "what I says go" type.

Thanks!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I love how the parents and the other children were responsive to
your daughter. I'll talk it over with my son and see how he feels
about it.
I'm sure my cousin would like to know how her son is behaving and
hopefully it might lead to additional conversation between them as a
family a better understanding of their son. I do worry about how the
dad will take it, he tends to be very strict and authoritative "what I
says go" type. -=-

Maybe that's where the son is getting his "what I say goes" behavior.

And he's not your dad. The most he is is your brother-in-law, right?
(or brother)
He's not the authoritative strict dad of you.

Are you worried that the other boy will be punished and then come back
for another round on your son? That would be my worry, if anything.

Maybe you could start the conversation with something like "Bob (or
whatever the strict authoritative dad is), I know you tend to be short
and commanding, but I'm here for a discussion of solutions, not for
your pronouncement. I'd like for this to be between the kids as much
as possible." And then don't look away from him. Don't look mean,
but look composed and calm and certain of your intentions. You might
not be able to pull that off, and that's fine, but don't come in
meekly and let him take over the situation and "manage" you all.

Maybe your request for a discussion could be in writing so you could
say things about how you don't want it to go. And they could talk to
their child before you get there. That might help.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vargasfamily4

"Maybe that's where the son is getting his "what I say goes" behavior."
That's what my husband and I think, the poor kid just looks so stressed when he's with his parents.

"Are you worried that the other boy will be punished and then come back for another round on your son? That would be my worry, if anything."

That's my main concern because I know he'll definitely be punished.

"Maybe you could start the conversation with something like "Bob (or
whatever the strict authoritative dad is), I know you tend to be short and commanding, but I'm here for a discussion of solutions, not for your pronouncement. I'd like for this to be between the kids as much as possible." And then don't look away from him. Don't look mean, but look composed and calm and certain of your intentions. You might not be able to pull that off, and that's fine, but don't come in meekly and let him take over the situation and "manage" you all.
Maybe your request for a discussion could be in writing so you could
say things about how you don't want it to go. And they could talk to
their child before you get there. That might help."

Thanks, Sandra. I guess we have a couple of things to talk with our son and figure out where we go from here.

ransomenote

I think I would try to talk to the boy first. It seems that he thinks it's ok for him to correct your son because they're cousins and he's the older one.

I once was the "parent monitor" for a group of boys on break from an intense choir rehearsal. As I watched them mill about indoors on a rainy day, I noticed one boy hit several others as they walked by him. Actually, he put his arm, with a clenched fist, out in front of them like a gate. But he carefully timed it so he was actually hitting the boys with his forearm as they walked by.

I walked over and told him to stop hitting the other boys. First, he denied that what he was doing was hitting! He then told me, "Oh, it's ok that I'm hitting them because I'm making them behave!"

I replied that it wasn't his job to make the others behave; that was my job. His job was just to make himself behave. Then he suggested that he was helping me with my job. I told him that his type of help was against the rules--"hands to yourself" was on the rules list. I said the kind of help he could give me was to come and tell me if kids were behaving badly. And then, of course, I stayed near him for the rest of the break.

My guess is that your nephew has a similar idea, or at least, is using this sort of logic to justify what he's doing to your son. So, I would first talk to him. I just have a feeling that a discussion among the adults might go badly.

- Meg

k

You know I kind of agree with Meg about one thing. I have seen many
kids who don't listen to their parents and don't care what they say or
think or do. Once adults are out of sight, they do as they please
often because of years of parental demands and disrespect. And if the
parent bullies their kids or other people (often they do but not
always), then they may even side with their kid who bullies, covertly
or openly. Some people have a deep seated belief that violence works
for them.

I decided to keep my kid away from some folks like these for a
loooonggg time and when the family called wondering if everything was
ok, I knew words were still going to be worthless. I said "no, but
we're tied up around here anyway, and sorry not to have phoned sooner
(which I vaguely was)." I don't care how likable people are otherwise,
some behavior might need periods of cooling it to put people on notice
(if that's the way they think of it) or create a sense of scarcity for
our being around and maybe greater appreciation of the less frequent
visiting that we have begun to do on occasion. This is the kind of
family that isn't trusted by any of us here in our house, and we have
tried to many times over.

I can't remember the OP's situation. But in general, confrontation
isn't the only answer in these things unless there's no way to
distance yourself.

~Katherine





On 4/23/10, ransomenote <RansomeNote@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think I would try to talk to the boy first. It seems that he thinks it's
> ok for him to correct your son because they're cousins and he's the older
> one.
>
> I once was the "parent monitor" for a group of boys on break from an intense
> choir rehearsal. As I watched them mill about indoors on a rainy day, I
> noticed one boy hit several others as they walked by him. Actually, he put
> his arm, with a clenched fist, out in front of them like a gate. But he
> carefully timed it so he was actually hitting the boys with his forearm as
> they walked by.
>
> I walked over and told him to stop hitting the other boys. First, he denied
> that what he was doing was hitting! He then told me, "Oh, it's ok that I'm
> hitting them because I'm making them behave!"
>
> I replied that it wasn't his job to make the others behave; that was my job.
> His job was just to make himself behave. Then he suggested that he was
> helping me with my job. I told him that his type of help was against the
> rules--"hands to yourself" was on the rules list. I said the kind of help he
> could give me was to come and tell me if kids were behaving badly. And then,
> of course, I stayed near him for the rest of the break.
>
> My guess is that your nephew has a similar idea, or at least, is using this
> sort of logic to justify what he's doing to your son. So, I would first talk
> to him. I just have a feeling that a discussion among the adults might go
> badly.
>
> - Meg
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

keetry

== This is the kind of family that isn't trusted by any of us here in our house ==

If you can't trust a person or a family, why would you continue to associate with her/them? I think it's important to show our children that it's ok to dump negative, harmful people.

Alysia

Sandra Dodd

-=-
If you can't trust a person or a family, why would you continue to
associate with her/them? I think it's important to show our children
that it's ok to dump negative, harmful people.-=-

"Avoid" or "detach from" might be a better thing to show children than
"dumping."
Especially in the case of children, everything might be totally
different and better with a little maturity.
That happens with men in their 20's too. Many of them calm down and
become responsible in their 30's and 40's. Those who were "dumped"
won't be around to redeem themselves, but those who were temporarily
avoided are still near enough to make things right and good.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>If you can't trust a person or a family, why would you continue to associate with her/them? I think it's important to show our children that it's ok to dump negative, harmful people.<<<

We visit these people about 3 times a year now; last summer we swam at
their neighborhood pool every few weeks. At one time we went over
about once a week to eat and hang out. I don't always trust their
opinions. We don't want to be a bringdown. We can go somewhere else.

The bullying aspect has changed since the boy has been homeschooling
for a couple years now. So that's good. That whole thing had us
cooling off for months. They're eclectic homeschoolers and I would say
since he was pretty fresh out of school at the time and needed some
deschooling. I didn't want Karl in the middle of that.

And he's a lot older than Karl, and the siblings compete for all sorts
of things. It's not the best. Their parenting hasn't changed to match
some of the things they do, the mother works during the day, we've
changed our parenting and have less in common now.

We've known them for years. Yes we could cut them off. Or we could go
to events we want to and not feel obliged to go frequently. We might
drift further apart or maybe things will change for better. Who knows?

~Katherine




On 4/24/10, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
> == This is the kind of family that isn't trusted by any of us here in our
> house ==
>
> If you can't trust a person or a family, why would you continue to associate
> with her/them? I think it's important to show our children that it's ok to
> dump negative, harmful people.
>
> Alysia
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

keetry

> "Avoid" or "detach from" might be a better thing to show children than
> "dumping."
> Especially in the case of children, everything might be totally
> different and better with a little maturity.
> That happens with men in their 20's too. Many of them calm down and
> become responsible in their 30's and 40's. Those who were "dumped"
> won't be around to redeem themselves, but those who were temporarily
> avoided are still near enough to make things right and good.

Yes, that's true. Bad choice of words on my part. I was thinking of the worst of the worst I've known where the only option was to completely cut myself off from them.

Alysia

keetry

> We visit these people about 3 times a year now; last summer we swam at
> their neighborhood pool every few weeks. At one time we went over
> about once a week to eat and hang out. I don't always trust their
> opinions. We don't want to be a bringdown. We can go somewhere else.
>
> The bullying aspect has changed since the boy has been homeschooling
> for a couple years now. So that's good. That whole thing had us
> cooling off for months. They're eclectic homeschoolers and I would say
> since he was pretty fresh out of school at the time and needed some
> deschooling. I didn't want Karl in the middle of that.
>
> And he's a lot older than Karl, and the siblings compete for all sorts
> of things. It's not the best. Their parenting hasn't changed to match
> some of the things they do, the mother works during the day, we've
> changed our parenting and have less in common now.
>
> We've known them for years. Yes we could cut them off. Or we could go
> to events we want to and not feel obliged to go frequently. We might
> drift further apart or maybe things will change for better. Who knows?
>

I latched onto the statement about not trusting the family, thinking about the adults not the children. I wouldn't make plans to get together with adults I don't trust. That's different from being friendly when you find yourselves at functions or places where they are. If my child really wanted to play with the child(ren), I would try to find safe ways to make that happen.

Alysia

Jenny Cyphers

***If my child really wanted to play with the child(ren), I would try to find safe ways to make that happen.***


Yesterday, the neighbor kids came over to play with Margaux. As often happens, they were bickering with one another, the younger boy started crying, so Margaux was trying to find out why he was so upset and the older sister wouldn't stop talking. Margaux very loudly and rather impolitely told her to shut it. The girl, understandably got upset, but then went on to threaten and intimidate Margaux, and fighting ensued that led to the neighbor kids threatening to leave and Margaux telling them "fine, just leave then jackass." (when I heard that, it was said loudly, I went running back)

This happened within 5 min. of being in our house. As they were leaving I was running back to the room where Margaux was. I asked if they were leaving, the older girl said that they were leaving because Margaux was being mean. I told them that I would go and ask Margaux what happened to find out how to help. They didn't wait around, they left. Margaux was crying and upset and after I got her to calm down, she told me all of what happened. She said she never wanted to play with them ever again. I told her that she didn't have to if she really didn't want to, but if she did, then she could and I promised that I'd stay very near by from now on so that it never gets to that level of frustration. She liked that idea better than never playing with them again.

Sometimes they play nicely together and sometimes they don't. Those kids are routinely frustrated at home and sometimes they come over with loads of frustration built up, like a taught spring. Anything will trigger that spring, and many times Margaux does, and gets hit by it. Margaux is not a kid that will sit back quietly and just take it, nor will she play the manipulation game that they do. It makes it more difficult for Margaux to get along with some kids, but I'd rather her be that way and help her, than for her to say or do nothing and act as if all that stuff is normal!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

We all *like* the adults I'm talking about. We just don't have as much
in common as we used to. That might change over time into a greater or
lesser degree of likeness. It's sort of like a movie I might watch all
the way to the end or I might not. :)

~Katherine




On 4/24/10, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
>> We visit these people about 3 times a year now; last summer we swam at
>> their neighborhood pool every few weeks. At one time we went over
>> about once a week to eat and hang out. I don't always trust their
>> opinions. We don't want to be a bringdown. We can go somewhere else.
>>
>> The bullying aspect has changed since the boy has been homeschooling
>> for a couple years now. So that's good. That whole thing had us
>> cooling off for months. They're eclectic homeschoolers and I would say
>> since he was pretty fresh out of school at the time and needed some
>> deschooling. I didn't want Karl in the middle of that.
>>
>> And he's a lot older than Karl, and the siblings compete for all sorts
>> of things. It's not the best. Their parenting hasn't changed to match
>> some of the things they do, the mother works during the day, we've
>> changed our parenting and have less in common now.
>>
>> We've known them for years. Yes we could cut them off. Or we could go
>> to events we want to and not feel obliged to go frequently. We might
>> drift further apart or maybe things will change for better. Who knows?
>>
>
> I latched onto the statement about not trusting the family, thinking about
> the adults not the children. I wouldn't make plans to get together with
> adults I don't trust. That's different from being friendly when you find
> yourselves at functions or places where they are. If my child really wanted
> to play with the child(ren), I would try to find safe ways to make that
> happen.
>
> Alysia
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>