Sandra Dodd

I'm sure several of you have been invited on the side to another
unschooling list lately. The purpose of that list seems to be to
badmouth me and this list. We've known for quite a while that people
were being invited out, but hadn't made a deal about it. Now, though,
Pam is being called a bitch over there. And I'm "fucked up," says
someone on that list. This was given as evidence that Always
Learning isn't a very nice list. Yeah... ironic. And I have heard
repeatedly that they don't discuss unschooling there much, just how
much they hate other unschoolers.

Here's a recent quote about this list, addressed to someone who had
left to go and complain there:

-=-At some point, you have to either accept that you're deciding to
live with an abuser and not be surprised anymore when he hits or
you're gunna have to leave. Again, I do not think you ever should have
to put up with that sort of treatment - they are assholes and your son
is likely not at all an angry kid. But out of the empathy that I do
have for you and your situation, I implore you to run, run away, run
away fast from all abusive people and especially from abusive groups
because they never ever ever ever ever ever change. Really. -=-

They (either all of us, or me and Pam?) are assholes.
And her son (whom none of them has met) is likely not an angry kid.
The mother pretty clearly told us he was angry.

-= I am so mad at that bitch right now and of course sandra won't let
the post go through so i can't defend myself!!-=-

The post I didn't let go through was talking about her son spitting in
her food. I wanted her to take time to try some of the suggestions
that had made, rather than her filling the already- stressed list with
more details of how unhappy things are at their house.

-=-It's funny...sd emailed me saying she was copying(cc)my email to
her 2best moderators but she doubted they would advise me.
so what was the point of her giving them a copy? for gossip?-=-

Because the most active moderators are Joyce Fetteroll and Joyce
Fetteroll, they had already seen the e-mail. What I copied them on
was my note with the reasons for returning her e-mail. Not for
gossip. And not so they would advise her. So they would know that
one of the other moderators had returned the note, and why. I
sometimes, but not always, get copies of their rejection notes. I
sometimes, but not always, copy them.

Going to another list and speculating isn't very honorable. No one
called anyone any names here. No one used any of that language here.

Anyone who wants to go to a hootin' hollerin' complaint session will
probably get an invitation to it. I like to think most people would
rather spend time with their children, or in really looking at things
that would make their children's lives better than investing time in
helping others frolic in slanderous nonsense.

I hope this post will be enjoyable to that list for a while, and that
they'll leave Pam alone. I hope Heather and some others will feel
ashamed of their treatment of people who have spent many hours
offering them help in the past. I hope some of the people on that
list will see the damage they are doing to their own souls and psyches
and integrity by being any part of such a wankfest. Their children's
lives are not enriched a single bit by their mothers spending time so
horribly badmouthing other unschoolers.

http://sandradodd.com/negativity

And here's some feedback on this allegedly abusive group:

** This list (Always Learning) is better for helping people get to
unschooling than anything else available anywhere else in the world.**
I absolutely believe this. I've only been reading here for a few weeks
but it has revolutionized the way I parent in a way that I know
therapy could never do - at least not in time for my children to grow
up feeling abundantly loved. I was in therapy when my older kids were
little, mostly for help with parenting. In the one case I received and
followed the worst advice possible re: sleep issues with my son (then
6) which has caused to him to be afflicted with deep-seated anxiety
about sleeping away from home, even now at 15. The other therapist
really helped me to put some of my own childhood traumas into
perspective and that did help my parenting somewhat...but not in the
all-encompassing way that this list - and Sandra's & Joyce's web site
- have done. Unschooling is about a paradigm shift. It has taken me
over a year (since first being exposed to the "radical" unschooling
philosophy) to get to this point of really understanding and embracing
that paradigm, but thanks to people like Sandra and Joyce, I'm here.
And I feel like I've finally connected with my real self. Like I've
come home. And it is such a relief! :D

~Leah



http://sandradodd.com/feedback

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I hope this post will be enjoyable to that list for a while, and that
they'll leave Pam alone. I hope Heather and some others will feel
ashamed of their treatment of people who have spent many hours
offering them help in the past. I hope some of the people on that
list will see the damage they are doing to their own souls and psyches
and integrity by being any part of such a wankfest. Their children's
lives are not enriched a single bit by their mothers spending time so
horribly badmouthing other unschoolers.***

Here's another thing to consider, for those that think they can go and have a bitch/gossip fest and have it not impact themselves... If those folks ever want to attend a conference and meet people who unschool and have been unschooling for a long time, spewing gossipy ugliness won't help. The unschooling community may seem large and expansive, but it's not. There are connections everywhere, in part because of the internet and email groups and online discussions.

The truly wonderful long time unschoolers online that give out great advice aren't going to disappear simply because someone else has deemed them to be "bitchy". Lots of email groups have started out of reactionary nonsense like that, and they fizzle out. I've been reading and involved in unschooling discussions since my oldest was 5 and about to enter kindy, so almost 11 yrs. I make it a point to stay where the good advice is, to keep up with what's out there in the unschooling world. I can say, without a doubt, this is the best email group out there. Unschooling basics is pretty good too, and always unschooled is ok, there is a lot of crossover of writers. There are a few more out there that are decent.

The fact that there is a lot of crossover, tells me, that nothing I write is secret. What someone says on one list will eventually make the rounds to other lists. People know people through strings of connections. It's how small populations work. It's just better all around to not be gossipy, especially in public.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Being told you're wrong from a credible source such as Sandra, Joyce,
Pam, etc. will probably always be hurtful. I got hit myself. Looking
back I know it's because someone really cared how the unschooling was
going down in my family (and when I say "down" I don't mean in any
*good* way).

Luckily (and we recently had a thread about luck) in conjunction with
a lot of my own stubbornness and thinking a lot on what had been said,
I didn't take it all over the place. I still didn't *get* it. I didn't
understand. Luckily I now understand more than I did.

It was a real zinger. And I'm thankful. It was a blessing.

Now don't everybody hit me with anymore of those. ;) Ya hear?

~Katherine





On 4/17/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I'm sure several of you have been invited on the side to another
> unschooling list lately. The purpose of that list seems to be to
> badmouth me and this list. We've known for quite a while that people
> were being invited out, but hadn't made a deal about it. Now, though,
> Pam is being called a bitch over there. And I'm "fucked up," says
> someone on that list. This was given as evidence that Always
> Learning isn't a very nice list. Yeah... ironic. And I have heard
> repeatedly that they don't discuss unschooling there much, just how
> much they hate other unschoolers.
>
> Here's a recent quote about this list, addressed to someone who had
> left to go and complain there:
>
> -=-At some point, you have to either accept that you're deciding to
> live with an abuser and not be surprised anymore when he hits or
> you're gunna have to leave. Again, I do not think you ever should have
> to put up with that sort of treatment - they are assholes and your son
> is likely not at all an angry kid. But out of the empathy that I do
> have for you and your situation, I implore you to run, run away, run
> away fast from all abusive people and especially from abusive groups
> because they never ever ever ever ever ever change. Really. -=-
>
> They (either all of us, or me and Pam?) are assholes.
> And her son (whom none of them has met) is likely not an angry kid.
> The mother pretty clearly told us he was angry.
>
> -= I am so mad at that bitch right now and of course sandra won't let
> the post go through so i can't defend myself!!-=-
>
> The post I didn't let go through was talking about her son spitting in
> her food. I wanted her to take time to try some of the suggestions
> that had made, rather than her filling the already- stressed list with
> more details of how unhappy things are at their house.
>
> -=-It's funny...sd emailed me saying she was copying(cc)my email to
> her 2best moderators but she doubted they would advise me.
> so what was the point of her giving them a copy? for gossip?-=-
>
> Because the most active moderators are Joyce Fetteroll and Joyce
> Fetteroll, they had already seen the e-mail. What I copied them on
> was my note with the reasons for returning her e-mail. Not for
> gossip. And not so they would advise her. So they would know that
> one of the other moderators had returned the note, and why. I
> sometimes, but not always, get copies of their rejection notes. I
> sometimes, but not always, copy them.
>
> Going to another list and speculating isn't very honorable. No one
> called anyone any names here. No one used any of that language here.
>
> Anyone who wants to go to a hootin' hollerin' complaint session will
> probably get an invitation to it. I like to think most people would
> rather spend time with their children, or in really looking at things
> that would make their children's lives better than investing time in
> helping others frolic in slanderous nonsense.
>
> I hope this post will be enjoyable to that list for a while, and that
> they'll leave Pam alone. I hope Heather and some others will feel
> ashamed of their treatment of people who have spent many hours
> offering them help in the past. I hope some of the people on that
> list will see the damage they are doing to their own souls and psyches
> and integrity by being any part of such a wankfest. Their children's
> lives are not enriched a single bit by their mothers spending time so
> horribly badmouthing other unschoolers.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/negativity
>
> And here's some feedback on this allegedly abusive group:
>
> ** This list (Always Learning) is better for helping people get to
> unschooling than anything else available anywhere else in the world.**
> I absolutely believe this. I've only been reading here for a few weeks
> but it has revolutionized the way I parent in a way that I know
> therapy could never do - at least not in time for my children to grow
> up feeling abundantly loved. I was in therapy when my older kids were
> little, mostly for help with parenting. In the one case I received and
> followed the worst advice possible re: sleep issues with my son (then
> 6) which has caused to him to be afflicted with deep-seated anxiety
> about sleeping away from home, even now at 15. The other therapist
> really helped me to put some of my own childhood traumas into
> perspective and that did help my parenting somewhat...but not in the
> all-encompassing way that this list - and Sandra's & Joyce's web site
> - have done. Unschooling is about a paradigm shift. It has taken me
> over a year (since first being exposed to the "radical" unschooling
> philosophy) to get to this point of really understanding and embracing
> that paradigm, but thanks to people like Sandra and Joyce, I'm here.
> And I feel like I've finally connected with my real self. Like I've
> come home. And it is such a relief! :D
>
> ~Leah
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/feedback
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Jenny Cyphers

***Being told you're wrong from a credible source such as Sandra, Joyce,
Pam, etc. will probably always be hurtful. I got hit myself. Looking
back I know it's because someone really cared how the unschooling was
going down in my family***

For me, writing about how unschooling works has helped me understand unschooling better and by understanding better I can DO it better. I've relied on the fact that nothing I write will be left to sit there if it isn't sound reasoning. Someone WILL point out a flaw in my thinking, which is a good thing, because it keeps me on my toes and moving forward and continuing in my own understanding of unschooling and parenting.

If I feel defensive, then it's good for me to examine why I feel that way. That process of self analyzing has helped me be a better partner in my marriage and a better partner to my kids. It was a beautiful and unforeseen side effect of writing about unschooling!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/19/2010 11:47 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
> ***Being told you're wrong from a credible source such as Sandra, Joyce,
> Pam, etc. will probably always be hurtful. I got hit myself. Looking
> back I know it's because someone really cared how the unschooling was
> going down in my family***


I didn't even tell her she was wrong about anything. I made the
suggestion that she should be with him every minute, that it seemed like
he had problems when he was left on his own. Set him up for success by
not leaving him alone in a room where he might respond by being destructive.

She is on the other list saying that I made an accusation of child
abuse. I suggested she should try being with him every minute -
attentively in the same space. I said I knew how very difficult that
sounded, but I also knew it could be done because of my own sister's
experience with doing it with her daughter. Then I explained WHY my
sister had done that with her daughter, just because I thought people
would wonder. Heather described, this time, a problem with Lucas being
purposely destructive of things. I was simply saying that what I was
suggesting might sound extreme, but that I'd seen it carried out
successfully in my own extended family. For that bit of very personal
disclosure for the sake of credibility, I get called a bitch and worse
and people are over there on that list saying how horrid I am for making
such a terrible accusation.

It is really discouraging to read the things people on that list are
saying - not so much because some of it is about me, but because it is
so extremely high school "mean girls" stuff, and it is so sad that
unschooling moms are doing it.

-pam

Robin Bentley

>
> It is really discouraging to read the things people on that list are
> saying - not so much because some of it is about me, but because it is
> so extremely high school "mean girls" stuff, and it is so sad that
> unschooling moms are doing it.

Do any of the people on that list know you? Anyone defending you and/
or your suggestions?

I almost hate to ask the name of that list if it would give it more
credibility than it deserves (email me privately, if that's a better
idea). I plan to warn people off joining it, too.

Robin B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]