keeping tidy rooms
indywhited
I'm Mary, mama to three children, ages 10, 6 & 3. We have always homeschooled. Nearly always unschooled. Brand new to embracing radical unschooling.
Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Thoughts? Responses?
He knows that I disagree with this statement. We'll talk about it again, as is our pattern to come back and talk more when we've each had time to mull over one another's perspective. But I need some assistance with thinking of ways to broaden this conversation, I think.
Thanks in advance,
Mary
Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Thoughts? Responses?
He knows that I disagree with this statement. We'll talk about it again, as is our pattern to come back and talk more when we've each had time to mull over one another's perspective. But I need some assistance with thinking of ways to broaden this conversation, I think.
Thanks in advance,
Mary
Amanda's Shoebox
When I was a child, I had a friend whose mom was constantly telling her to brush her hair. I recently found her again on Facebook and she has dreads... made me laugh :)
--- In [email protected], "indywhited" <indywhited@...> wrote:
> Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
>
> "Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Schuyler
I suppose my first comment, if David were to say something like that, was to ask if something had happened at work or was happening at work that got him thinking about that. Or, if it wasn't as out of the blue as that, see if I could help make the house feel less chaotic when he came home. See if I could make sure that walking into the house didn't feel like
Simon and Linnaea don't have chores or requirements to keep their rooms clean. Actually, I don't either, really. Our house isn't too bad most of the time. Simon and Linnaea will lend a hand when asked. And the other day, appropos of nothing, Linnaea folded all of her clothes in her dresser drawer. Without being forced to do those things they can do them as gifts, as joys, as passing fancies, with being forced, they can never do them as a gift, never. Gail Higgins has a fantastic blogpost about her children gifting her a clean kitchen: http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com/2009/07/just-clean-kitchenor-is-it.html. And while that may be a moment to remark on, I don't remember doing that, not once, not ever, for my parents.
I'm not a particularly tidy person. David mentioned the other day about how in my room in the house I shared with friends while at university it was quite difficult to walk for debris. I had a chore chart with gold stars and bed making and room tidying as part of it. I can remember being grounded to my room until I would clean it. Nothing made cleaning come easily to me except time and a desire to find things. I still don't put away clothes well. There is a heap of clothes in my bedroom, all clean, that must be a few weeks worth of laundry (don't have a dryer, so what would have taken a couple of days with a dryer takes a few weeks with a line and a dampish climate). And I still can't clean quickly or easily; I have to sort and put away and not just tidy. It makes my cleaning a dedicated affair and any distraction can lead me off track. I am so very distractable.
I don't know what that offers you to tell him, but maybe some of the ideas are about seeing things as messy. I don't always see a mess that David may see. David is amazingly good at just cleaning, just tidying. And Simon and Linnaea certainly don't see a mess where I might. They aren't looking for a mess, they are looking for engagement with the world and cleaning isn't how they do that, yet. But when they want something, like Simon wanting a Yugioh card, he has a pretty good idea of where it is, which deck to look through first. It's like David talking about my room being untidy, while I couldn't believe the state of his papers and his files and his kitchen floor. The details of my life that I wanted to be in order were in order and the rest wasn't important. As it was for him. As it is for Simon and Linnaea.
It is interesting to hear someone else's fears for their children. Your husband wants your children, his children to succeed and to not have their crazy, out of the box childhoods' to cost them ostracism and joblessness. That's pretty powerful love and anxiety all mixed together. In whatever conversation you have, if you start knowing that, well, that's a good place to start.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: indywhited <indywhited@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 5 April, 2010 21:58:19
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] keeping tidy rooms
I'm Mary, mama to three children, ages 10, 6 & 3. We have always homeschooled. Nearly always unschooled. Brand new to embracing radical unschooling.
Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Thoughts? Responses?
He knows that I disagree with this statement. We'll talk about it again, as is our pattern to come back and talk more when we've each had time to mull over one another's perspective. But I need some assistance with thinking of ways to broaden this conversation, I think.
Thanks in advance,
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Simon and Linnaea don't have chores or requirements to keep their rooms clean. Actually, I don't either, really. Our house isn't too bad most of the time. Simon and Linnaea will lend a hand when asked. And the other day, appropos of nothing, Linnaea folded all of her clothes in her dresser drawer. Without being forced to do those things they can do them as gifts, as joys, as passing fancies, with being forced, they can never do them as a gift, never. Gail Higgins has a fantastic blogpost about her children gifting her a clean kitchen: http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com/2009/07/just-clean-kitchenor-is-it.html. And while that may be a moment to remark on, I don't remember doing that, not once, not ever, for my parents.
I'm not a particularly tidy person. David mentioned the other day about how in my room in the house I shared with friends while at university it was quite difficult to walk for debris. I had a chore chart with gold stars and bed making and room tidying as part of it. I can remember being grounded to my room until I would clean it. Nothing made cleaning come easily to me except time and a desire to find things. I still don't put away clothes well. There is a heap of clothes in my bedroom, all clean, that must be a few weeks worth of laundry (don't have a dryer, so what would have taken a couple of days with a dryer takes a few weeks with a line and a dampish climate). And I still can't clean quickly or easily; I have to sort and put away and not just tidy. It makes my cleaning a dedicated affair and any distraction can lead me off track. I am so very distractable.
I don't know what that offers you to tell him, but maybe some of the ideas are about seeing things as messy. I don't always see a mess that David may see. David is amazingly good at just cleaning, just tidying. And Simon and Linnaea certainly don't see a mess where I might. They aren't looking for a mess, they are looking for engagement with the world and cleaning isn't how they do that, yet. But when they want something, like Simon wanting a Yugioh card, he has a pretty good idea of where it is, which deck to look through first. It's like David talking about my room being untidy, while I couldn't believe the state of his papers and his files and his kitchen floor. The details of my life that I wanted to be in order were in order and the rest wasn't important. As it was for him. As it is for Simon and Linnaea.
It is interesting to hear someone else's fears for their children. Your husband wants your children, his children to succeed and to not have their crazy, out of the box childhoods' to cost them ostracism and joblessness. That's pretty powerful love and anxiety all mixed together. In whatever conversation you have, if you start knowing that, well, that's a good place to start.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: indywhited <indywhited@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 5 April, 2010 21:58:19
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] keeping tidy rooms
I'm Mary, mama to three children, ages 10, 6 & 3. We have always homeschooled. Nearly always unschooled. Brand new to embracing radical unschooling.
Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Thoughts? Responses?
He knows that I disagree with this statement. We'll talk about it again, as is our pattern to come back and talk more when we've each had time to mull over one another's perspective. But I need some assistance with thinking of ways to broaden this conversation, I think.
Thanks in advance,
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nicolaphillips88
Hello there.
I was made to keep my room tidy. toys and favorite things got chucked in the bin (after asked once to tidy up) if our objects were on the floor in a bin bag they'd go ! :-(
i am now and have been since leaving home messy - i do have sort outs and tidy up sessions but our home is never spotless.
as i type I'm looking to the playroom - toys on floor and on the coffee table is the role play food my son was playing with this afternoon .. ..
being made to be tidy does not mean you'll be a tidy adult .. I'm not !
i don't even put laundry away .. it goes in piles in the laundry room. never makes the draws- be lucky if it See's an iron.. !
I'm sure this aspect is because we had weekly draw checks - our draws inspected that clothes were neat folded 'correctly' and in 'correct' piles (boarding school not my mum this was!)
not much help in answering you but that's my childhood and now as i am as an adult !
with love Nicola xx
I was made to keep my room tidy. toys and favorite things got chucked in the bin (after asked once to tidy up) if our objects were on the floor in a bin bag they'd go ! :-(
i am now and have been since leaving home messy - i do have sort outs and tidy up sessions but our home is never spotless.
as i type I'm looking to the playroom - toys on floor and on the coffee table is the role play food my son was playing with this afternoon .. ..
being made to be tidy does not mean you'll be a tidy adult .. I'm not !
i don't even put laundry away .. it goes in piles in the laundry room. never makes the draws- be lucky if it See's an iron.. !
I'm sure this aspect is because we had weekly draw checks - our draws inspected that clothes were neat folded 'correctly' and in 'correct' piles (boarding school not my mum this was!)
not much help in answering you but that's my childhood and now as i am as an adult !
with love Nicola xx
--- In [email protected], "indywhited" <indywhited@...> wrote:
>
> I'm Mary, mama to three children, ages 10, 6 & 3. We have always homeschooled. Nearly always unschooled. Brand new to embracing radical unschooling.
>
> Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
>
> "Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
>
> Thoughts? Responses?
>
> He knows that I disagree with this statement. We'll talk about it again, as is our pattern to come back and talk more when we've each had time to mull over one another's perspective. But I need some assistance with thinking of ways to broaden this conversation, I think.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mary
>
carnationsgalore
> "Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise theyWell, this kind of thought bothers me as much as the one that says children need to be forced to wake up at an early time in the mornings so they are used to doing that when they are adults and have jobs. I find his choice of words to be quite odd, in fact. I've worked in numerous offices and I've never seen any of them filthy. Does he see that often?
> will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they
> will be ostracized and potentially fired."
My mom had a very relaxed sort of parenting style. I never had chores, i.e. specific duties I needed to do around the house. She pretty much did everything. I remember helping occasionally, but honestly I did not a great deal. She never fussed at me. In fact, she never really asked me or even showed me how to do things around the house. I had to learn fast when I moved into my own apartment. Even though I was not forced to be tidy or clean, As an adult, I have never desired to have my home be untidy or unclean.
Since my children were toddlers, I've involved them in the things I do for our family. They have a choice to help or not to help. We don't yell or manipulate to get them to do things. Just like me, sometimes they want to clean and sometimes they don't.
My 17 yr. old daughter has a part-time job at a restaurant. Her supervisors often compliment and thank her for doing such a great job. She loves the restaurant to be sparkly clean. One of her supervisors complimented me on having such a wonderful daughter. He was amazed at what an awesome teenager she is because he hasn't often seen that type of work ethic from teenage employees. She was quite puzzled by the compliments because she says she is just doing her job.
I believe it's attitude and role-modeling. :)
Beth M.
indywhited
Thank you for this thoughtful reply. :D
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> I suppose my first comment, if David were to say something like that, was to ask if something had happened at work or was happening at work that got him thinking about that. >
Part of what came out during this conversation was an understanding that we start from completely different views. His is that people are essentially lazy and will do anything they can to not have to do one tiny bit more than what is required of them. That was drilled into him by his parents and, sadly, it is all that he sees around him.
> I don't know what that offers you to tell him, but maybe some of the ideas are about seeing things as messy. >
That is an excellent point and one I need to remember. Chris (hubby) is very visually-oriented and clutter is visually almost painful for him. When he looks in the boys' rooms he sees 'a mess' and reacts as such. I asked him to go really look at the elder son's room after our conversation. Yes, there were legos everywhere (they defy any attempts at control/organization, don't they?) and there were clothes here and there. He admitted that his initial glance was deceptive. My perspective is that there is not rotten food on the floor (or anywhere) and the clothes lying about are all clean. And that this is his room.
Then I asked him to look at what I kindly call 'my craft room.' It is my space where the yarn is completely in charge and the knitting books are looking to stage a coup. And then I asked him to consider how well I would receive it if he criticized the state of 'my room' or told me when it was time to clean it up and how. Of course he knew that I wouldn't take it well, but says that it is different because I am an adult.
> IThat's pretty powerful love and anxiety all mixed together. In whatever conversation you have, if you start knowing that, well, that's a good place to start. >
Yes it is powerful and fantastic. Thanks for pointing that out. :D
indywhited
--- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore" <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
He tells me that he is trying to ignore clutter and basic disorganization, but it is hard.
>I've worked in numerous offices and I've never seen any of them filthy. Does he see that often?>In his opinion, yes. He is very, very particular.
He tells me that he is trying to ignore clutter and basic disorganization, but it is hard.
indywhited
--- In [email protected], "nicolaphillips88" <nicolaphillips88@...> wrote:
>He has told the boys many times that if they don't clean up (in the timeframe he allots) that he will throw everything in the trash. We've had many discussions about this and I've let him know that whether he finds that abusive or not it is, to me, a clear abuse of authority.
> Hello there.
> I was made to keep my room tidy. toys and favorite things got chucked in the bin (after asked once to tidy up) if our objects were on the floor in a bin bag they'd go ! :-( >
> not much help in answering you but that's my childhood and now as i am as an adult !Thanks! My parents were extremely controlling about, well, everything and there was hell to pay if you didn't do it right. It took me years after getting away from them to find that there can be joy in tending to the home. I am joyously homekeeping these days because it is a choice.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-His is that people are essentially lazy and will do anything they
can to not have to do one tiny bit more than what is required of them.
That was drilled into him by his parents and, sadly, it is all that he
sees around him. -=-
School pretty much makes it true. At school if a kid does one tiny
bit more than what is required, the other kids and the teachers will
deride him about it.
Does he want his kids to be different from schoolkids or not?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
can to not have to do one tiny bit more than what is required of them.
That was drilled into him by his parents and, sadly, it is all that he
sees around him. -=-
School pretty much makes it true. At school if a kid does one tiny
bit more than what is required, the other kids and the teachers will
deride him about it.
Does he want his kids to be different from schoolkids or not?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-He has told the boys many times that if they don't clean up (in the
timeframe he allots) that he will throw everything in the trash. We've
had many discussions about this and I've let him know that whether he
finds that abusive or not it is, to me, a clear abuse of authority.-=-
If he's determined to be that way for now (he'll probably change) then
you, as the mom who doesn't want the things thrown away, could help
the boys clean.
How old are these boys? It's possible (likely) that he is expecting
too much of them, and remembering his own childhood in a skewed way.
No reason to bring that second part up....
Partners, not adversaries. Maybe that's all you'd need to say to him
about it. Is he the enemy or the partner? Are they on the same team
or are they his opponents?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
timeframe he allots) that he will throw everything in the trash. We've
had many discussions about this and I've let him know that whether he
finds that abusive or not it is, to me, a clear abuse of authority.-=-
If he's determined to be that way for now (he'll probably change) then
you, as the mom who doesn't want the things thrown away, could help
the boys clean.
How old are these boys? It's possible (likely) that he is expecting
too much of them, and remembering his own childhood in a skewed way.
No reason to bring that second part up....
Partners, not adversaries. Maybe that's all you'd need to say to him
about it. Is he the enemy or the partner? Are they on the same team
or are they his opponents?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they
will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired."-=-
It's not true, but there's no hurry to "prove" that. Just as you
don't want to force your child (or try to force... it's pretty hard to
force another person to do anything) to clean a room, you don't want
to force your husband to change his mind and admit it RIGHT NOW.
I'll say a few things, and give you some links to look at.
"Have to... or..." is a fallacy.
The desire and ability to be "tidy" is genetic.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet (read some of those for comic relief,
and to look at the top quote here in that light).
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/chores/genetic
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired."-=-
It's not true, but there's no hurry to "prove" that. Just as you
don't want to force your child (or try to force... it's pretty hard to
force another person to do anything) to clean a room, you don't want
to force your husband to change his mind and admit it RIGHT NOW.
I'll say a few things, and give you some links to look at.
"Have to... or..." is a fallacy.
The desire and ability to be "tidy" is genetic.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet (read some of those for comic relief,
and to look at the top quote here in that light).
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/chores/genetic
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Helen Cain
Mary wrote:
and said some of her classmates laughed at her because she picked up
some litter and put it in the bin. They said you only pick up litter
if the teacher tells you to. (We have frequently picked up litter in
the street or at the park...) She wasn't upset, she thought it was
funny.. but she said some time later that she never picked up litter
at school again, unless she was told to do it.
At home she's never asked to tidy her room -- I will occasionally
offer to help her tidy it, if she would like. It will get messy for a
week or two, then if she has a friend coming over or is sick of the
mess or is running out of clean clothes she will tidy it up. No
nagging, just her doing what makes her feel comfortable.
Helen in Melbourne, Australia
> -=-His is that people are essentially lazy and will do anything theyThen Sandra wrote:
>can to not have to do one tiny bit more than what is required of them.
>That was drilled into him by his parents and, sadly, it is all that he
>sees around him. -=-
>"School pretty much makes it true. At school if a kid does one tinyMy DD Nicola then 11 tried school last year. She came home one day
>bit more than what is required, the other kids and the teachers will
>deride him about it."
and said some of her classmates laughed at her because she picked up
some litter and put it in the bin. They said you only pick up litter
if the teacher tells you to. (We have frequently picked up litter in
the street or at the park...) She wasn't upset, she thought it was
funny.. but she said some time later that she never picked up litter
at school again, unless she was told to do it.
At home she's never asked to tidy her room -- I will occasionally
offer to help her tidy it, if she would like. It will get messy for a
week or two, then if she has a friend coming over or is sick of the
mess or is running out of clean clothes she will tidy it up. No
nagging, just her doing what makes her feel comfortable.
>Does he want his kids to be different from schoolkids or not?He's probably not aware that kids *can* be different from schoolkids.
Helen in Melbourne, Australia
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/5/2010 1:58 PM, indywhited wrote:
it. I'm busy with other things and just really don't care that much - I
always have something better to do (like writing this post, eating fresh
strawberries, chatting with my husband, and watching the basketball game
on tv - all the things I'm doing right now).
Outside of my house I'm a neatnik - when we're camping or staying in a
hotel or someone else's house, I'm always straightening up and clearning.
My kids were messy like me - their own rooms were usually messy when
they were growing up. At 22, Roxana lives in an apartment with 3 other
girls and SHE is the neatnik of the four of them. She's organized and
clean. She's the one who gets the other girls to wash floors and take
out trash, etc. Her clothes are all neatly hung up or folded in drawers,
etc. Roya, 24, lives in her own house and she's way more regular at
housework than I have ever been. My youngest is 19 - she lives at home,
has her own room. It gets messy and then she straightens it all up and
makes it nice - it is picked up and nice more often than messy.
So - none of the three of them took after me and my messy ways even
though I didn't "train" them to keep their own space clean.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise theyI'm a lousy housekeeper. My house frequently looks like a tornado hit
> will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
> be ostracized and potentially fired."
>
> Thoughts? Responses?
it. I'm busy with other things and just really don't care that much - I
always have something better to do (like writing this post, eating fresh
strawberries, chatting with my husband, and watching the basketball game
on tv - all the things I'm doing right now).
Outside of my house I'm a neatnik - when we're camping or staying in a
hotel or someone else's house, I'm always straightening up and clearning.
My kids were messy like me - their own rooms were usually messy when
they were growing up. At 22, Roxana lives in an apartment with 3 other
girls and SHE is the neatnik of the four of them. She's organized and
clean. She's the one who gets the other girls to wash floors and take
out trash, etc. Her clothes are all neatly hung up or folded in drawers,
etc. Roya, 24, lives in her own house and she's way more regular at
housework than I have ever been. My youngest is 19 - she lives at home,
has her own room. It gets messy and then she straightens it all up and
makes it nice - it is picked up and nice more often than messy.
So - none of the three of them took after me and my messy ways even
though I didn't "train" them to keep their own space clean.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will
grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be
ostracized and potentially fired."
When my husband makes sweeping doom and gloom statements, I have learned to
realize that he thinks I may not address his concerns unless they were
suitably crucial. I am guilty. I have a lot on my plate and sometimes just
don't register anything that may mean more discomfort unless its critical. I
don't do it on purpose. Its just as though I've reached my 'to do capacity'
and there isn't any more place. He certainly breaks through that auto
discard with statements like that (and he doesn't do it on purpose either -
he it trying to be heard). I am forced to consider the statement, which by
then is so outrageously exaggerated, that I disagree and we end up on two
sides of a disagreement.
Recognizing this has taught me to disregard the 'opening words' and get to
what he is really trying to say. Asking questions like, "Is that always
true?" or "Is there something immediately doable?" help identify that and
often, even its being acknowledged as his need works. If its a small thing,
we/I may do it immediately. If its larger, I promise to work with it when I
feel more enabled. etc. Its always easier to deal with than the original
statement.
N is not an age when he can tidy anything, but we still had a similar
conversation about me 'bringing him up' in an untidy home being the
foundation of a disorganized life. Initially I got defensive. I have a lot
on my plate - taking care of N, cooking, cleaning, managing our business,
laundry (he barely does any housework is his mom is home). I don't have time
to keep cleaning, particularly when ten minutes later, he is the one making
a mess. He didn't have an answer, since what I said was essentially true
(I'm smart in my cruelty). But he still was upset, just not talking about it
any more. Later, I went to him and asked him if he would like help cleaning
the room and he grasped it like a lifeline - he wanted the room clean, but
has no idea how to go around achieving it (long story with
protecting-controlling MIL - no male in the house does anything at home,
because they will be 'interfering'). I continued my day with N, laundry,
etc. Popping in to do bits and pieces when I could, and when he got stuck.
Done. Sunshine. His problem was simply that the mess was irritating him, and
it hadn't seemed possible that he could do it on his own. N wouldn't grow up
into a disorganized life anymore ;)
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be
ostracized and potentially fired."
When my husband makes sweeping doom and gloom statements, I have learned to
realize that he thinks I may not address his concerns unless they were
suitably crucial. I am guilty. I have a lot on my plate and sometimes just
don't register anything that may mean more discomfort unless its critical. I
don't do it on purpose. Its just as though I've reached my 'to do capacity'
and there isn't any more place. He certainly breaks through that auto
discard with statements like that (and he doesn't do it on purpose either -
he it trying to be heard). I am forced to consider the statement, which by
then is so outrageously exaggerated, that I disagree and we end up on two
sides of a disagreement.
Recognizing this has taught me to disregard the 'opening words' and get to
what he is really trying to say. Asking questions like, "Is that always
true?" or "Is there something immediately doable?" help identify that and
often, even its being acknowledged as his need works. If its a small thing,
we/I may do it immediately. If its larger, I promise to work with it when I
feel more enabled. etc. Its always easier to deal with than the original
statement.
N is not an age when he can tidy anything, but we still had a similar
conversation about me 'bringing him up' in an untidy home being the
foundation of a disorganized life. Initially I got defensive. I have a lot
on my plate - taking care of N, cooking, cleaning, managing our business,
laundry (he barely does any housework is his mom is home). I don't have time
to keep cleaning, particularly when ten minutes later, he is the one making
a mess. He didn't have an answer, since what I said was essentially true
(I'm smart in my cruelty). But he still was upset, just not talking about it
any more. Later, I went to him and asked him if he would like help cleaning
the room and he grasped it like a lifeline - he wanted the room clean, but
has no idea how to go around achieving it (long story with
protecting-controlling MIL - no male in the house does anything at home,
because they will be 'interfering'). I continued my day with N, laundry,
etc. Popping in to do bits and pieces when I could, and when he got stuck.
Done. Sunshine. His problem was simply that the mess was irritating him, and
it hadn't seemed possible that he could do it on his own. N wouldn't grow up
into a disorganized life anymore ;)
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
>>Does he want his kids to be different from schoolkids or not?That's a big idea. There is a huge difference between kids who are given the option to help and kids who are given chores. Doing something because you have to really takes the likelihood of ever wanting to do that thing away. http://sandradodd.com/chores/tales are a few stories of children doing because they want to rather than because they have an obligation, a pressing responsibility to do chores. Without the choice to not do something a child can't choose to do it. Schoolkids often have very framed options and choice is rarely a part of the equation. So the attitudes of a largely schooled population will be very different from those who have been unschooled.
>He's probably not aware that kids *can* be different from schoolkids.
Schuyler
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Jenny Cyphers
"Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
Presuming that all your kids will grow up to work in offices. I can think of plenty of other places where tidy and neat isn't necessarily better, although organization of some form is generally a good thing. However, how I organize things is very different than how my spouse does or how either of my 2 children do. What makes sense to each of us is different.
One time when Chamille (16 today) was about 9 or 10, I would go into the bathroom and be frustrated that the toothpaste and and counter stuff was always moved to a different location. One day I confronted Chamille about it thinking she was just messing with the order of things and that she clearly didn't know where things belonged in the bathroom. She set me straight on that, letting me know how and why things should go in the bathroom and that my system didn't make sense at all.
She has her own bathroom now, and that works best for all of us. I wouldn't dream of messing with her room, although sometimes she lets me clean it and help her straighten it up.
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Presuming that all your kids will grow up to work in offices. I can think of plenty of other places where tidy and neat isn't necessarily better, although organization of some form is generally a good thing. However, how I organize things is very different than how my spouse does or how either of my 2 children do. What makes sense to each of us is different.
One time when Chamille (16 today) was about 9 or 10, I would go into the bathroom and be frustrated that the toothpaste and and counter stuff was always moved to a different location. One day I confronted Chamille about it thinking she was just messing with the order of things and that she clearly didn't know where things belonged in the bathroom. She set me straight on that, letting me know how and why things should go in the bathroom and that my system didn't make sense at all.
She has her own bathroom now, and that works best for all of us. I wouldn't dream of messing with her room, although sometimes she lets me clean it and help her straighten it up.
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keetry
--- In [email protected], "indywhited" <indywhited@...> wrote:
I have a neighbor who was forced to do all kinds of home repair/improvement projects with his dad when he was a child. He refuses to do anything like that now that he's grown and doesn't have to. He gets his teenage daughter to do it, like putting up a jungle gym set for his 6 year old son. He's 47 years old and still has anger and resentment toward his dad for making him do that because he hated it so much.
Alysia
>I was not forced by my mother to clean when I was child. I'm not the best housekeeper in the world but my home isn't filthy, either. I clean what I want when I want.
> Yesterday during conversation my husband said (to me):
>
> "Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will be ostracized and potentially fired."
>
> Thoughts? Responses?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mary
I have a neighbor who was forced to do all kinds of home repair/improvement projects with his dad when he was a child. He refuses to do anything like that now that he's grown and doesn't have to. He gets his teenage daughter to do it, like putting up a jungle gym set for his 6 year old son. He's 47 years old and still has anger and resentment toward his dad for making him do that because he hated it so much.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
I went to look for a quote about some separated and separately adopted
twins who were both neat, in their 30's, in the same ways
(compulsively neat) and one said it was because his mother taught him
to do that, and the other said it was a response to his mom, who was
a very bad housekeeper.
I haven't found that yet, but I did find this:
Nancy Segal: Parents make things available to their children, but
different children gravitate toward different things. One might love
being on the computer, while another might prefer exploring the
outdoors. Each child goes off in directions that are compatible with
their specific genotype. Tom showed this in the study of MZAs. When
twins are reared apart in very different environments they often
create their own environments and these turn out to be very similar.
The best example is a set of British twins reared in very different
homes in which one had educational opportunities available and the
other didn't. But the less advantaged twin got a library card and read
the same books that her sister was reading at home. And their IQs were
very similar.
Tim Bouchard: That striking case highlights the general point that
each organism creates its own environment. So our conception of the
environment as "something out there" that's static or fixed and stamps
its influence on us is really wrong. The "environment," and I'm not
sure that's even the right word, is something that is literally
created by the organism. And that's true with a vengeance for human
beings.
I was one of those kids who seemed like he was in a perpetual daze.
People even used to talk about me that way. And the nuns would come
over and hit me with a ruler and say, "Tom, pay attention!" But I
wasn't dazed, I was doing all kinds of things. My environment was in
my head. And that's what lots of people do. Some do more of it, some
less. Different kids focus on dramatically different things. Some like
to work with their hands, while others like abstraction. These
different foci are the result of genetic propensities that I call
"experience producing drives." We differ markedly on them.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmske/is_3_14/ai_n31060470/?tag=content;col1
En-twinned lives: twins experts Thomas J. Bouchard, Jr. and Nancy L.
Segal of the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart re-unite to discuss
behavior genetics and evolutionary psychology
Skeptic, Fall, 2008 by Frank Miele
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twins who were both neat, in their 30's, in the same ways
(compulsively neat) and one said it was because his mother taught him
to do that, and the other said it was a response to his mom, who was
a very bad housekeeper.
I haven't found that yet, but I did find this:
Nancy Segal: Parents make things available to their children, but
different children gravitate toward different things. One might love
being on the computer, while another might prefer exploring the
outdoors. Each child goes off in directions that are compatible with
their specific genotype. Tom showed this in the study of MZAs. When
twins are reared apart in very different environments they often
create their own environments and these turn out to be very similar.
The best example is a set of British twins reared in very different
homes in which one had educational opportunities available and the
other didn't. But the less advantaged twin got a library card and read
the same books that her sister was reading at home. And their IQs were
very similar.
Tim Bouchard: That striking case highlights the general point that
each organism creates its own environment. So our conception of the
environment as "something out there" that's static or fixed and stamps
its influence on us is really wrong. The "environment," and I'm not
sure that's even the right word, is something that is literally
created by the organism. And that's true with a vengeance for human
beings.
I was one of those kids who seemed like he was in a perpetual daze.
People even used to talk about me that way. And the nuns would come
over and hit me with a ruler and say, "Tom, pay attention!" But I
wasn't dazed, I was doing all kinds of things. My environment was in
my head. And that's what lots of people do. Some do more of it, some
less. Different kids focus on dramatically different things. Some like
to work with their hands, while others like abstraction. These
different foci are the result of genetic propensities that I call
"experience producing drives." We differ markedly on them.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmske/is_3_14/ai_n31060470/?tag=content;col1
En-twinned lives: twins experts Thomas J. Bouchard, Jr. and Nancy L.
Segal of the Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart re-unite to discuss
behavior genetics and evolutionary psychology
Skeptic, Fall, 2008 by Frank Miele
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Presuming that all your kids will grow up to work in offices. I can
think of plenty of other places where tidy and neat isn't necessarily
better, although organization of some form is generally a good thing.
However, how I organize things is very different than how my spouse
does or how either of my 2 children do. What makes sense to each of us
is different.-=-
There's a shoe repair shop near our old house (Hoffmantown Center, for
those who know Albuquerque) and it's been there as long as I can
remember, so for Albuquerque and me, that's 30 years. That shopping
center was built in the mid-50's, so it could easily have been there
all that time.
I was in there to pick up a pair of Holly's shoes last week, and the
guy was busy on the phone. Keith and I have had boots re-soled there
in the past, and I was looking at the stuff on the walls. Some OLD,
faded pictures of shoes from history (Regency, Roman, Egyptian), cut
out and mounted on poster board probably in the 1970's or 80's.
Cowboy boots lined up in one place, high. Shoe laces and shoe polish,
dusty, not displayed very nicely. In the back of the room, various
machines, none new, some looked to be from the 1940's. On the floor,
pieces of leather. Stains from dye. The newest thing in there was
a framed certificate staying it was the best shoe repair shop in the
city in 2009.
I worked in a print shop. The front office was kept clean and nice,
and there was a door that closed, that needed to be closed, into the
print area itself. This was no photocopy place. Offset. MESSY.
Paper piled, scrap for re-use, misses from registration for color
printing, cans of ink. Tools. OLD machines. Newer machines.
Machines rarely used. PMT supplies. Paste-up supplies. Dangerously
messy. Also, hard-working and efficient.
Some mechanics keep a neat shop and wipe the tools off and hang them
in marked places every day. Some mechanics carry their favorite tools
around all the time, or know where they last had them. The neat shop
isn't necessarily the best place to take your car.
Sandra
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think of plenty of other places where tidy and neat isn't necessarily
better, although organization of some form is generally a good thing.
However, how I organize things is very different than how my spouse
does or how either of my 2 children do. What makes sense to each of us
is different.-=-
There's a shoe repair shop near our old house (Hoffmantown Center, for
those who know Albuquerque) and it's been there as long as I can
remember, so for Albuquerque and me, that's 30 years. That shopping
center was built in the mid-50's, so it could easily have been there
all that time.
I was in there to pick up a pair of Holly's shoes last week, and the
guy was busy on the phone. Keith and I have had boots re-soled there
in the past, and I was looking at the stuff on the walls. Some OLD,
faded pictures of shoes from history (Regency, Roman, Egyptian), cut
out and mounted on poster board probably in the 1970's or 80's.
Cowboy boots lined up in one place, high. Shoe laces and shoe polish,
dusty, not displayed very nicely. In the back of the room, various
machines, none new, some looked to be from the 1940's. On the floor,
pieces of leather. Stains from dye. The newest thing in there was
a framed certificate staying it was the best shoe repair shop in the
city in 2009.
I worked in a print shop. The front office was kept clean and nice,
and there was a door that closed, that needed to be closed, into the
print area itself. This was no photocopy place. Offset. MESSY.
Paper piled, scrap for re-use, misses from registration for color
printing, cans of ink. Tools. OLD machines. Newer machines.
Machines rarely used. PMT supplies. Paste-up supplies. Dangerously
messy. Also, hard-working and efficient.
Some mechanics keep a neat shop and wipe the tools off and hang them
in marked places every day. Some mechanics carry their favorite tools
around all the time, or know where they last had them. The neat shop
isn't necessarily the best place to take your car.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-He didn't have an answer, since what I said was essentially true
(I'm smart in my cruelty).-=-
Thoughts like that will bite you in the ass. If you think of yourself
as cruel, or smart, amend that if you want to have a partnership.
Sandra
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(I'm smart in my cruelty).-=-
Thoughts like that will bite you in the ass. If you think of yourself
as cruel, or smart, amend that if you want to have a partnership.
Sandra
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Krisula Moyer
>>>--- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore" <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>I've worked in numerous offices and I've never seen any of them filthy. Does he see that often?>In his opinion, yes. He is very, very particular. He tells me that he is trying to ignore clutter and basic disorganization, but it is hard.<<<
Eric has a need for uncluttered space. He has a highly technical and creative job and he just can't concentrate well with visual clutter. One of the things we do to help accommodate his need for order in our (rather chaotic) home is to have at least one room where things are put away and where "stuff" is kept to a minimum. Usually we try to make this the dining area which means that the table is clear so people can sit there with laptops or sit and read, talk, dare i say eat? But sometimes dd wants to set up dolls or a huge craft project or something at the dining room table and then it helps if I clear up the living room. If all the public spaces are teaming with projects, toys, equipment, then I find he tends to disengage from the family to go find a less chaotic space. He'll be in our bedroom or out on the front porch. Possibly your husband has this kind of personality, he may be physically or mentally uncomfortable around all the flotsam that accompanies having free, creative, active children. If so, making an effort to help him get that need met may result in less criticism of the kids and their "messes."
Krisula Moyer
The Seer, the novel
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Deb Lewis
***Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they
will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
Maybe you can ease his worry by keeping the kid's rooms tidy yourself. They might help you. They might not.<g> But you'd be protecting their stuff if he's threatened to throw it away and you'd be calming your husband some.
Dylan is neat. He vacuums his room every week, dusts his bookshelves. He makes his bed. He didn't have chores and didn't have to keep his room tidy. It just happened over the years that his tendency toward order worked into a desire for orderly space. If he wasn't a naturally orderly person I don't think making him clean could have made him one. I think it could have made him unhappy, made him feel bad about me, made him resentful.
I work sometimes with a really creative woman who is SO messy. She's not in danger of getting fired because she's half owner of the shop. Maybe one of your kids will own his own company and can hire people to tidy up.<g> I'm neat at work, I work better in a clean place, but because she's so stinking cute and creative (and because she pays me well) I can live with her messiness. <g> Messy does not necessarily mean a person will be a jobless outcast.
Deb Lewis
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will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
Maybe you can ease his worry by keeping the kid's rooms tidy yourself. They might help you. They might not.<g> But you'd be protecting their stuff if he's threatened to throw it away and you'd be calming your husband some.
Dylan is neat. He vacuums his room every week, dusts his bookshelves. He makes his bed. He didn't have chores and didn't have to keep his room tidy. It just happened over the years that his tendency toward order worked into a desire for orderly space. If he wasn't a naturally orderly person I don't think making him clean could have made him one. I think it could have made him unhappy, made him feel bad about me, made him resentful.
I work sometimes with a really creative woman who is SO messy. She's not in danger of getting fired because she's half owner of the shop. Maybe one of your kids will own his own company and can hire people to tidy up.<g> I'm neat at work, I work better in a clean place, but because she's so stinking cute and creative (and because she pays me well) I can live with her messiness. <g> Messy does not necessarily mean a person will be a jobless outcast.
Deb Lewis
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Messy does not necessarily mean a person will be a jobless outcast.
-=-
And the ability to clean and organize and follow orders doesn't
necessarily mean a person will have and keep a cool job (nor even ever
get a cool job).
I've worked with some people who bugged the heck out of me cleaning
and organizing half the time, without doing anything creative,
energetic or impressive the other half of their time.
Sandra
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-=-
And the ability to clean and organize and follow orders doesn't
necessarily mean a person will have and keep a cool job (nor even ever
get a cool job).
I've worked with some people who bugged the heck out of me cleaning
and organizing half the time, without doing anything creative,
energetic or impressive the other half of their time.
Sandra
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lalow66
"
My dad is a professor, he used to be an engineer. Has always been successful in what he does and enjoyed his work. He is one of the most untidy people you could meet. His office at work and home is what most would consider a mess. He has a big chair in the middle of his home office and he spreads all his work about him on the floor. So that there is very little room to get in and out of his office. He likes it that way. He has never been fired.
My 7 year old son Ben has demonstrated a tendancy toward this way of being as well... he likes his things to surround him and be within arms reach. Putting things away stresses him out. He will when asked, usually, help clean. He doesnt like to put things away but he will wash floors, vacuum, dust, etc..
>"
> ***Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they
> will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
> be ostracized and potentially fired.***
>
My dad is a professor, he used to be an engineer. Has always been successful in what he does and enjoyed his work. He is one of the most untidy people you could meet. His office at work and home is what most would consider a mess. He has a big chair in the middle of his home office and he spreads all his work about him on the floor. So that there is very little room to get in and out of his office. He likes it that way. He has never been fired.
My 7 year old son Ben has demonstrated a tendancy toward this way of being as well... he likes his things to surround him and be within arms reach. Putting things away stresses him out. He will when asked, usually, help clean. He doesnt like to put things away but he will wash floors, vacuum, dust, etc..
Su Penn
On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:33 PM, lalow66 wrote:
We found our way to a measure of peace after we read a book called "Organizing for the Creative Person" (wow, here it is at Amazon, amazingly still in print: http://tinyurl.com/ycb4uk9). It talked about how some people like to have everything neatly labeled in folders and drawers out of sight, and some people like to have their stuff around them. Really, we should have been able to just accept each other without a book validating us, but it just really helped us see that there wasn't a right or wrong way about how each of us did things, just preferences. And the insights in the book helped my friend stop trying to force himself into a put-things-away model that was never going to work for him and creatively think about how to organize his space in ways that worked for him. For instance, we hung about a million clothes hooks in his room and installed a lot of shelves, and he bought some more laundry baskets and, instead of always feeling bad that he hadn't put away his clothes "properly," made storing his clean clothes, neatly folded, in laundry baskets just part of the way he did things.
One thing I seem to have sacrificed in order to have kids is the order I crave, and it is hard for me. My partner isn't troubled by what I see as mess and clutter, and I find myself so overwhelmed by clutter in the environment that I can't keep it the way I want it to be. It's something we are constantly working on and looking for solutions for, and sometimes the best I can do is just take a few minutes to imagine David and me in retirement, in our tiny little minimalist condo with everything put away.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
> My 7 year old son Ben has demonstrated a tendancy toward this way of being as well... he likes his things to surround him and be within arms reach. Putting things away stresses him out.One of my closest friends and I lived together for years in our 20s, and had a lot of conflict about how we kept the house. I'm the kind of person who doesn't own a lot and likes things to be neatly put away out of sight. He's the kind of person whose room always looks like a suitcase exploded in it.
We found our way to a measure of peace after we read a book called "Organizing for the Creative Person" (wow, here it is at Amazon, amazingly still in print: http://tinyurl.com/ycb4uk9). It talked about how some people like to have everything neatly labeled in folders and drawers out of sight, and some people like to have their stuff around them. Really, we should have been able to just accept each other without a book validating us, but it just really helped us see that there wasn't a right or wrong way about how each of us did things, just preferences. And the insights in the book helped my friend stop trying to force himself into a put-things-away model that was never going to work for him and creatively think about how to organize his space in ways that worked for him. For instance, we hung about a million clothes hooks in his room and installed a lot of shelves, and he bought some more laundry baskets and, instead of always feeling bad that he hadn't put away his clothes "properly," made storing his clean clothes, neatly folded, in laundry baskets just part of the way he did things.
One thing I seem to have sacrificed in order to have kids is the order I crave, and it is hard for me. My partner isn't troubled by what I see as mess and clutter, and I find myself so overwhelmed by clutter in the environment that I can't keep it the way I want it to be. It's something we are constantly working on and looking for solutions for, and sometimes the best I can do is just take a few minutes to imagine David and me in retirement, in our tiny little minimalist condo with everything put away.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
Ana Maria Bruce
***Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
I was not forced to keep my room neat, but had an amazing organized office. I grew up in a messy house because there were 7 of us, and my Mom just couldn't keep up. It was always cleaned eventually. My mother-in-law only had three and she was a clean freak. I never saw her house dirty before in 25 years....she cleaned her pots before the meal was served so we only spent about 10 minutes in her kitchen after family gatherings. At my Mom's after family gatherings...it took about 2 hours to clean up afterward! I learned from my Mom how to have an inviting home and function in a messy house! I learned alot of creative tips from my mother-in-law how to keep a home tidy and have seen creative people come out of homes run by clean freaks too!
I am a messy but love to organize.....I used to organize my mom's cupboards for fun!! Learned some tricks throughout the years to maintain clean and orderly our very large house with large family .....My husband still prefers more tidy, free of clutter then the rest of us in our home. He really likes the hotel feel! He travels alot. I used to blame it on his up bringing and business travel but after living with him for 25 years it is just the way he is wired.....I have seen him adapt to living in the 3rd world and even living in a hut for 2 years with 2 kids just fine! Of course our hut was very tidy and orderly! All our kids are very relaxed when it comes to messes, but have the skills to clean and be orderly. They like the balance of both extremes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
I was not forced to keep my room neat, but had an amazing organized office. I grew up in a messy house because there were 7 of us, and my Mom just couldn't keep up. It was always cleaned eventually. My mother-in-law only had three and she was a clean freak. I never saw her house dirty before in 25 years....she cleaned her pots before the meal was served so we only spent about 10 minutes in her kitchen after family gatherings. At my Mom's after family gatherings...it took about 2 hours to clean up afterward! I learned from my Mom how to have an inviting home and function in a messy house! I learned alot of creative tips from my mother-in-law how to keep a home tidy and have seen creative people come out of homes run by clean freaks too!
I am a messy but love to organize.....I used to organize my mom's cupboards for fun!! Learned some tricks throughout the years to maintain clean and orderly our very large house with large family .....My husband still prefers more tidy, free of clutter then the rest of us in our home. He really likes the hotel feel! He travels alot. I used to blame it on his up bringing and business travel but after living with him for 25 years it is just the way he is wired.....I have seen him adapt to living in the 3rd world and even living in a hut for 2 years with 2 kids just fine! Of course our hut was very tidy and orderly! All our kids are very relaxed when it comes to messes, but have the skills to clean and be orderly. They like the balance of both extremes.
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Julie Anderson
I have 3 daughters, two grown up and one still at home. The oldest used to be a real neat nic with her room, everything had to be in its place.. now she's married with a kid of her own and her house is a total mess most of the time.....Middle daughter was a collecter of 'stuff'..not overly concerned in keeping her room clean as a kid/teen, but now she is very much the housekeeper with her own place...and even comes home and gets after me for not being neater!! Go figure..... My youngest daughter is very messy, but she says its easier to find things when its on the floor.. ha.... I've never complained to my girls about their rooms as that is there personal space.. as long as ants or other bugs aren't invading the rest of the house because of their soda cans or whatever, I'm cool with however they want to have their rooms. I have offered to help, or suggest ways to better manage... but in my opinion all is subject to change and what they do as young folks isn't necessarily how neat they are later on... My girls are now 25, 19 and almost 15 yrs old.
Julie in MO
***Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they
will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
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Julie in MO
***Children have to be forced to keep their rooms neat otherwise they
will grow up to be adults who keep filthy office spaces and they will
be ostracized and potentially fired.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Whited
Thank you all for your very thought-provoking responses. I've been taking
the last several days to mull over the things that you've each offered.
As I was considering all these perspectives yesterday it occurred to me that
I've not done a very good job of making sure that my husband's home office
is tidy. Our family's PC has been in there for the last 8 months or so and I
just realized what this has meant.
So I awakened with a plan-of-action in mind today. I thoroughly cleaned his
office -- which really needed it. Then I moved the PC and desk to the living
room. This will leave his office with his desk, his bookcases and his stuff.
And then I mopped and polished the hardwood floors in there. I'm leaving it
for him to rearrange and organize the room however it suits him, but it is
very clean now.
I've called it my 'making sure papa has a restful nest' project.
The house may not always be tidy, but at least his room can be.
As for moving the PC, I wish I had done that sooner. Not only is it out of
the office space, now I can sit on the sofa and knit (or email) and still be
involved in what they are playing and ask questions. Theo and Whinnie (3)
are sitting together playing Zoombinis right now and it is fun to see what
they are enjoying.
As for the boys and their rooms, I've simply been asking that they do
specific (short, easily-accomplished) tasks. I'm not forcing anything. Today
I asked eldest child, Nic (10) to please put away his clean clothes and move
clothes any needing washing the laundry room. He did it cheerfully and 5
minutes later he was back to doing what he wanted. Then I asked middle guy,
Theo (6) to make a pile of dirty clothes at his door so that I could get
them to wash. He didn't get them all, but he did make an effort and that was
all I was wanting for now.
:D
Mary
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the last several days to mull over the things that you've each offered.
As I was considering all these perspectives yesterday it occurred to me that
I've not done a very good job of making sure that my husband's home office
is tidy. Our family's PC has been in there for the last 8 months or so and I
just realized what this has meant.
So I awakened with a plan-of-action in mind today. I thoroughly cleaned his
office -- which really needed it. Then I moved the PC and desk to the living
room. This will leave his office with his desk, his bookcases and his stuff.
And then I mopped and polished the hardwood floors in there. I'm leaving it
for him to rearrange and organize the room however it suits him, but it is
very clean now.
I've called it my 'making sure papa has a restful nest' project.
The house may not always be tidy, but at least his room can be.
As for moving the PC, I wish I had done that sooner. Not only is it out of
the office space, now I can sit on the sofa and knit (or email) and still be
involved in what they are playing and ask questions. Theo and Whinnie (3)
are sitting together playing Zoombinis right now and it is fun to see what
they are enjoying.
As for the boys and their rooms, I've simply been asking that they do
specific (short, easily-accomplished) tasks. I'm not forcing anything. Today
I asked eldest child, Nic (10) to please put away his clean clothes and move
clothes any needing washing the laundry room. He did it cheerfully and 5
minutes later he was back to doing what he wanted. Then I asked middle guy,
Theo (6) to make a pile of dirty clothes at his door so that I could get
them to wash. He didn't get them all, but he did make an effort and that was
all I was wanting for now.
:D
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Our family's PC has been in [my husband's home office] for the last
8 months or so and I
just realized what this has meant.-=-
That sounds wonderful, to have put that in a different room for the
sake of all involved.
Nice post altogether!
As to kids' rooms, it can seem overwhelming even for an adult, to
think about cleaning a roomful of toys. For a child, it's sometimes
inconceivable. So the suggestion to ask them to do just one thing
(pick up laundry), if it's done sweetly and especially if the parent
will help, is another win/win/win situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
8 months or so and I
just realized what this has meant.-=-
That sounds wonderful, to have put that in a different room for the
sake of all involved.
Nice post altogether!
As to kids' rooms, it can seem overwhelming even for an adult, to
think about cleaning a roomful of toys. For a child, it's sometimes
inconceivable. So the suggestion to ask them to do just one thing
(pick up laundry), if it's done sweetly and especially if the parent
will help, is another win/win/win situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Mary Whited wrote:
For me, I do a lot of modified FlyLady: "I can do this for fifteen minutes," or "I'll just spend ten minutes working on the kitchen."
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
> I've called it my 'making sure papa has a restful nest' project.I'd bet that your thoughtfulness and showing you're taking his concern seriously will mean as much to him as the tidy room.
> As for the boys and their rooms, I've simply been asking that they doThis is what I always do with my kids. My usual way of saying it is something like, "It would be a big help if you'd put the playmobil stuff on the table back into the bin." Giving them one really specific thing to do. My oldest son is, like me, kind of overwhelmed by physical chaos and a blanket suggestion that he just pick up overloads his circuits. Usually both boys (and even Yehva, who's 2.5 now) will happily do the small task I've asked them to do; quite often once they start, they'll do more cleaning up than that.
> specific (short, easily-accomplished) tasks.
For me, I do a lot of modified FlyLady: "I can do this for fifteen minutes," or "I'll just spend ten minutes working on the kitchen."
> He didn't get them all, but he did make an effort and that wasI'm a big fan of "every little bit helps," or "anything you can do is a help," or "just do what you can, it will still help." I grew up with a grandmother who was very derisive of giving things "a lick and a promise" or doing any job less than perfectly, but if it weren't for a lick and a promise, I'd never do any housework at all. I suppose when the kids move out I can give them a copy of some "how to clean" book just in case they want to do it different or more thoroughly in their own home. Or the number of a good maid service.
> all I was wanting for now.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5