amyparkington

Unschoolers seem to have the advantage of using a variety of resources
like: movies, video games, books, parks, etc. I have read that
Unschoolers use the whole world as their classroom, etc. That makes me
think that Unschoolers are more advanced than other students.
Unschoolers are the future world leaders and inventors.
My question is: Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem to
be "behind" in comparison to other kids?It doesn't make sense.


Thank you in advanced!
Amy



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Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschoolers seem to have the advantage of using a variety of
resources
like: movies, video games, books, parks, etc. I have read that
Unschoolers use the whole world as their classroom, etc. That makes me
think that Unschoolers are more advanced than other students.
Unschoolers are the future world leaders and inventors.
My question is: Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem to
be "behind" in comparison to other kids?It doesn't make sense.-=-

This is a breathless long thought that doesn't help anyone unschool.

-=Unschoolers seem to have the advantage of using a variety of resources
like: movies, video games, books, parks, etc.-=-

It's not necessarily "the advantage," because schools use some or all
of those things too. And schools have gyms, and art rooms, and music
programs.

-=- I have read that Unschoolers use the whole world as their
classroom, etc. -=-

God knows there's a ton of stuff out there people can read.
But why should unschoolers have "a classroom"?

-=-That makes me think that Unschoolers are more advanced than other
students. -=-

"Advanced" and "advantage" both need to be seen in relationship to a
goal or an ideal.

-=-Unschoolers are the future world leaders and inventors.-=-

Why would you say that?
I remember the moment, in an anthropology lecture hall at UNM, when I
was sitting musing and realized that the smartest people in the world
were not involved in politics. That Nixon WANTED to be president,
while Robin Williams and Whoopi Goldberg wouldn't touch state
legislature with a ten-foot pole.

So even I thought that unschooling guaranteed kids being
"smarter" (which I don't), that doesn't mean they would want to be
"world leaders." And being inventive is probably more genetic than
anything else. The ability to see things in new and different ways is
cool and all, but our kids might not even be inventive about education
and learning. They've just grown up the way they have, without school
for comparison (my kids, anyway, and some others).

-=-My question is: Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem
to be "behind" in comparison to other kids?It doesn't make sense-=-

My kids didn't graduate from high school, so on a track/course that
has high school graduation at the finish line, they are behind.
My kids didn't go to college, and so to anyone who sees college
graduation as the end of childhood, my children are behind.

The ways in which my kids are ahead aren't seen by most people. Kirby
taught games and karate when he was in his mid teens and he was really
good at it, by all accounts and my own observation and the reports of
his sensei and the boss at the gaming store. There's not anything
anywhere in this culture that recognizes a gifted teacher in a 15 year
old boy.

Holly is good with mixing thrift store clothes into cool outfits, and
taking photos. That could turn to a job, or it might just be
something she will do for fun her whole life. But she doesn't have
any transcripts with anything about fashion or photography, so from
the point of view of some people who are sure they are "ahead," then
Holly is clearly by definition "behind."

And Marty's just awesome.

Sandra




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Joanna

-=-My question is: Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem to
> be "behind" in comparison to other kids? It doesn't make sense.-=-


There is no cultural measurement, or even recognition, of emotional intelligence--unless it is turned into a marketable skill. For some it might. For others, it might just mean that their emotional intelligence is far ahead of what it would have been had they remained in school.

There is also that period, during the tweens, when schooled kids are soaking up facts and figures, while my kids have cocooned themselves away with their interests--becoming knowledgeable about things that aren't considered important. Solving puzzles in video games, working out the best way to level up and/or earn gold in WoW, etc. Most of the world equates learning with fact collecting, so IN COMPARISON, our kids, who are given the time and space to follow their own interests, might be looking "behind" if one doesn't know where to look. ;-)

Just the other day we had a weekend getaway with my in-laws. My MIL was quite surprised, delighted and honored that her 14 yo grandson was begging to play our family card game, Hand and Foot (like Canasta). He's loving the strategy and "the kill" (we always play guys against the girls), plus all the social interaction. She used to make lots of disparaging comments about teens and about the future time when Joshua would be a teen. I've noticed that those comments have all stopped. <bwg> But whether that is "factored in" or not when someone is "evaluating" my kids, I don't know. I would have been scared to sit at a table full of adults and join in the banter.

Joanna

nutley1105

> My question is: Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem to
> be "behind" in comparison to other kids?It doesn't make sense.

Most of the people I've heard making these kinds of comments are public school teachers/parents/advocates who are using public school benchmarks as the point of comparison.

My husband works for a board of ed [in IT] and we try to keep our educational choices quiet to avoid unnecessary confrontations with the people he works with. Our take is that it is none of their business, but they know we have a daughter and many times feel compelled to add their two cents about what she may be lacking/missing out on by not being part of public school.

One teacher accosted my daughter in the supermarket, of all places, with a frantic rallying cry about her 8-year-old students doing their own PowerPoint presentations, which is wonderful for her but really didn't interest my daughter in the least. Nor did it make my daughter feel guilty, or lessened, or challenged, or jealous, or whatever it was the woman was trying to accomplish.

There was a time that I, as a parent, felt guilty and lessened and chastised by those kinds of incidents, but common sense has prevailed and as time passes it gets easier and easier to walk away without more than a polite congratulatory response.

Kris

Jenny Cyphers

***Why do many people still say that unschoolers seem to
be "behind" in comparison to other kids?It doesn't make sense.***

It depends on how people are measuring what makes someone behind or ahead. If you're talking about school people doing the measuring then they look behind because schools use a check list and grades. If unschoolers don't use a check list and grades, then they will look as if they haven't done as much as what those school kids are doing. In reality, they just have a different list, or they've recycled that paper.





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Eileen

My experience with unschooling has taught me this: I must stop thinking in terms of "behind" and "ahead." Behind whom? Ahead of whom? And why does it really matter? Is it important to the happiness and satisfaction of our children to be "ahead?" If I have cooped up my child with a stack of books, and he knows all the history dates since time began, is he "ahead" of the child who has happily played 'Indians' in his homemade fort (yet knows little about history dates)?

The times I have felt discouraged about unschooling are the times that I have compared my children to other children. I have nine children. Most of them learned to read right around six or seven yrs old. One learned to read when he was four. One (so glad I am confident of unschooling at this point!) is eight, and still does not read, nor does he show much of an interest in reading at this point. Is he behind? Maybe. Does it matter? No. I am confident he will read when he is ready, and he will enjoy it when he does learn to read. And even if he learns to read, but never loves it, that's O.K., too.

It has taken me a long time to get to this place in our unschooling, but now that I'm here, there's no turning back. Nothing takes the place of a child learning with enthusiasm and pleasure- behind... or ahead!

Eileen

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> -=Unschoolers are the future world leaders and inventors.-=

Speaking of inventors...Thomas Edison was certainly labelled "behind" by his teachers, Einstein was thought by his teachers to be slow in math, and Didn't Bill Gates drop out of College?

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Marina DeLuca-Howard

I have observed happy families are unschooling because they place a value on
children, learning, democracy and human rights. Comparisons and arbitrary
accomplishments don't seem important. Many unschooling children draw, build
and develop new ideas.

Marina


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teecups4me

My almost 4 year old and 6 year old act out their favorite songs..Thriller is their favorite (don't know how that happened).
My almost 10 year old is struggling to learn how to read but is amazing on the computer and building knex
My almost 12 year old is teaching himself to play piano and draw manga
My 15 year old is an amazing artist and is already getting paid jobs for manga art and logos.
My 16 and 17 yr old daughters love school and spend hours doing ACE paces though subjects they have chosen themselves. They also write stories- they hand a notebook back and forth and each take turns writing. They have dozens of composition notebooks filled up. They also hand sewing a quilt together. They also cook most of the meals and do all of the baking.

I know my kids are behind the public school kids. But they are creative, social with all ages, starting their own business ventures, and caring kids.

That said- I don't mind they are behind by the world's standards. They are ahead in my book!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know my kids are behind the public school kids-=-

I taught 12-15 year olds for year, and I have vivid memories of
school. Your kids might behind the ideal, imaginary-model student,
but they would not be behind the average at all. Lots of the things
mentioned (notebooks full of writing; art jobs) aren't typical of
school kids.

Sandra

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Debra Garner

Thank you Sandra for the great perspective.
Blessings, Debra
http://veganfamilystyle.blogspot.com


-=-I know my kids are behind the public school kids-=-

I taught 12-15 year olds for year, and I have vivid memories of
school. Your kids might behind the ideal, imaginary-model student,
but they would not be behind the average at all. Lots of the things
mentioned (notebooks full of writing; art jobs) aren't typical of
school kids.

Sandra




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k

Karl is good with words probably because he watches a lot of tv and
hangs out with us adults, has an unbelievably good memory (I never did
even when I was a kid), imitates sounds, sings songs, makes up songs
(good ones IMO), makes up stories ALL the time pretty much, acts them
out, has 2 large drawers of playacting clothes I thought he would have
lost interest in by now, is very internet and game savvy, great with
conversation (I'm not), talks/interacts with people of any age/gender,
builds with Legos, exercises, learns from so many sources, is curious
but sensitive if people don't want to talk (it's interesting ... he
shrugs his shoulders to soften conflicts .. which he didn't learn from
me or his dad). He's got a lot of interpersonal feel his parents don't
have as much of and his flexibility in this amazes me. We never told
him to say "please," "thanks," "excuse me," etc. and he's always said
those frequently.

None of this is scholastically amazing except his wide vocabulary.
Most of it is just life.

He'd probably do well academically and socially. Yet I love the spirit
he has. I'm totally enjoying it. I would miss him were he to be in
school all day.

He's six and doesn't sit down to read books or stories. He doesn't sit
down much at all. He has worried about not being able to read yet from
time to time but mostly I think he loves his life. He sounds happy to
me. (*I* know he's picking up reading but he certainly doesn't read
sentences or anything lengthy yet but I can see little changes along
the way. Yesterday he asked what some conversation heart candies said
and then went around repeating them; getting some right and some mixed
up but they weren't small or phonically simple words either so...)

~Katherine



On 4/1/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I know my kids are behind the public school kids-=-
>
> I taught 12-15 year olds for year, and I have vivid memories of
> school. Your kids might behind the ideal, imaginary-model student,
> but they would not be behind the average at all. Lots of the things
> mentioned (notebooks full of writing; art jobs) aren't typical of
> school kids.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>

lalow66

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I know my kids are behind the public school kids-=-
>
> I taught 12-15 year olds for year, and I have vivid memories of
> school. Your kids might behind the ideal, imaginary-model student,
> but they would not be behind the average at all. Lots of the things
> mentioned (notebooks full of writing; art jobs) aren't typical of
> school kids.
>
> Sandra
>
My husband teaches middle school right now, he is continually amazed at things our 4,6,7,and 8 year olds can do.

Deb Lewis

*** Your kids might behind the ideal, imaginary-model student,
but they would not be behind the average at all.***

When Dylan was younger I knew he wouldn't have been able to pass some assessment type tests, he didn't know math notation, didn't know the definition of a verb or a noun, etc. Tests would have confused him with language like "rational integer" or "infinitive phrase" He's not great at spelling but as he writes more (and he writes a lot) he's getting better. He's better at spelling than I was at seventeen.

He could probably pass a test now.

But his knowledge of the world, the environment, world events, politics, social issues, his understanding of human nature, human psychology, philosophy always seemed broader and deeper than that of other people his age and even people much older. He's really smart. I don't worry he's behind anyone. Most of his life I worried *I* was so far behind *him* I might not be of much help to him. <g>

Deb Lewis










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Sandra Dodd

Clarification of a typo:

I taught 12-15 year olds for year,

years. six years. plus two semesters of student teaching, high
school level. Plus many times visiting friends' classrooms to do
projects on the history of English, usually high school level. So
have seen lots of school kids in that environment, not knowing as much
as people like to think "all high schoolers" know. And of course
there are always some with a great spark of curiosity or interest in
the topic and they perk up and have fun, which helps the presenter or
teacher have more fun, and simultaneously they irritate some of the
kids who are having NO fun, which is another thing unschoolers get to
avoid.

Sandra

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[email protected]

I'm new here - been lurking for quite a while now soaking it all in, and I
have to say I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. I pulled my kids
out of school 5 years ago this May. Initially we used whatever curriculum I
could get for cheap off ebay or amazon. We had a schedule or routine that
we followed, and then we had to move. We've actually moved 3 times in the
past 4 years and fell drastically behind in the book work as a result. I was
feeling like a terrible mother, and a failure that I wasn't giving my kids
a proper education. Over time I got over that guilt, and wasn't so
bothered by it, but was happy because my kids were happy -and then I was able to
see they were learning on their own! It wasn't until we moved here (upstate
NY) last fall and I met a group of unschoolers that I realized that that's
what we were doing, and really felt validated. Needless to say -I'll be
selling all of our workbooks and textbooks this summer ;-)

Melissa


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Pam Sorooshian

On 4/2/2010 6:46 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
> But his knowledge of the world, the environment, world events,
> politics, social issues, his understanding of human nature, human
> psychology, philosophy always seemed broader and deeper than that of
> other people his age and even people much older. He's really smart. I
> don't worry he's behind anyone. Most of his life I worried *I* was so
> far behind *him* I might not be of much help to him. <g>

Also - much of what is taught in school is memorized by the students,
for a test, and promptly forgotten if not used.

People always think I know a lot of math - I took a lot of math classes
and know some advanced math in some specific areas. But Rosie is taking
a college calculus class and she's learning things in that class that
I've long ago forgotten.

So - is she now "ahead" of me? Or behind me because she hasn't forgotten
it yet? <G>

-pam

Joanna

> So - is she now "ahead" of me? Or behind me because she hasn't forgotten
> it yet? <G>
>

And then there's the whole reality that kids who are "taught math" don't necessarily even get it or understand what they're doing. Is that "ahead" of a kid who hasn't learned the notation, but is playing around with the concepts in real life?

Joanna