Answers and responses to journalling questions and comments
Katherinev
Hi,
I'd like to respond to some of the questions and great insights -- I organized things around questions I wanted to answer, and comments I wanted to talk about, I tried to keep authors with their posting, but I found for the most part this made the discussion too confusing, so my apologies if your name didn't get included. There was some excellent pieces of advice/thoughts I'd like to respond to.
"I've been reading more about how this unschooling works. Being forced to do anything really does more harm than good. "
== Insistence leads to resistence is it simply just rude to be the judge of what someone must learn? I had an interesting conversation today with Heidi. She has homeschooled in the past, schooled, and I asked her if she wanted to unschool. She definitely chose the later. She has me a bit kicking and screaming along the way. I think part of it is my own history of homeschooling. When I began there was no internet, I worked to create a rich learning environment for my (eventually) 12 children to share in. We bounced around between philosophies, and I think in all it was kind of a cycle we followed unit studies, exhaustion then nothing, traditional books, boredom, back to the next unit study. Some of the kids were able to unschool themselves and ran their own learning and I supported that, but I never felt that I could do unschooling justice with so many kids. Part of that was I think because my kids needed some experiences that I was not equipped or able to give them. I also began when we had to hide from the law. I see that fear is still with me.===
Questions to answer:
How old is Heidi and why does she need to go back to school in a year or so?
I wonder why you are keeping this big reservation - "have to put her back in school" - in your mind. If there is some reason that you will "have to" put her back in school, it might be worth revealing.
==Heidi is 11, and while I am finishing my graduate school she can stay home with me, but I fear that a job job might make unschooling difficult. And, there are some things that high school can offer her that she may want later. I'm a single mom with four kids at home, and other kids I keep up with who live with their Dad, and grad school to boot. My context of homeschooling is very different than the life we are leading now. My view of unschoolers is of parents with a lot going on that the kids can join in on, and two parents. I feel rather inadequate to meet Heidi's request.===
-=-I have been having her keep a learning journal where she records
her activities and plans her learning for the day. -=-
This is your new unschooling plan, or that's what you have been doing
as part of the structured homeschooling?
===We didn't journal unless we wanted to before. I just don't know if I can record Heidi's learning adequately if I attempt to do it, much happens outside of my awareness and it can be difficult to capture without her input.===
Advice I like and questions I have about it:
As far as journaling for record keeping to be legal: First, is it necessary? Second, do you know your laws? and, Third, Why aren't you, the mom, doing the record keeping if it's necessary?
If it's not necessary, then journaling should be up to the person doing the journaling.
As to being behind, well depending on how old she is, much of what goes on in school is repetition. If she is high school age and wanting a diploma, that's different and will usually require some sort of credit hours.
I think the legal requirements of homeschooling are the parents' business and responsibility. Don't assume what these would be, and don't do more than the law absolutely requires.
==I think this is a good point, I'm trying to shift the burden to Heidi in ways that really don't fulfill my responsible protective role for her. I feel that, thanks for making it explicit. On the other hand, as I said before, it can be difficult to capture the spontaneous learning of another. Many of her thinking and activities are outside of my observation. It can be difficult at times to catch up on these conversations with the pressing needs of other children.==
IF you want to unschool:
I think having any kind of journal *requirement* is a barrier both to deschooling and unschooling in the long run.
I think she is not experiencing her freedom while she is having to account to you for the learning value of her activities.
I think you won't be able to see natural learning working fully while you are insisting on keeping the learning schoolish.
===I wonder if she can see the journal as not accountability to me, but protective for herself and a resource to draw from. I mean, after all, people will ask her about her learning all the time. It was one thing to answer this as homeschoolers in away that navigated the social space safely for my kids. Don't others face this issue?===
Don't try to dissect what she is learning, and don't continue to ask her to do so. Just give her time to genuinely deschool, and then help her do what she wants to *do*. The learning happens automatically.
Support her computer time with practical help - bring snacks, check her comfort - instead of evaluating it.
===I think this is very good advice on her use of computer games, also I celebrated some of her wins and asked her why she liked some of her games. Eventually we got into some good conversations in the flow of our day I'm starting to suspect that this is where the magic of unschooling is == normal respectful dialogue with my daughter about what is interesting for her and us.==
Unschooling isn't about merely minimizing the painful. It is about living a wonderful life today.
-=- I'm nervous because if I do have to put her back in school in a
year or so,-=-
Why would you "have to" do that?
Please think about "have to":
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==I read the web page, and I'd like to argue for a minute that this rhetoric of choices is more a middle class reality, to quote===
Choice is a really important conceptnot just semantics. It's the difference between anger, regret, resentment and happiness, comfort and joy in life. I chose to have my children when in grad school; I chose to follow my husband to New Mexico instead of staying at PSU to teach and raise two babies by myself; I chose to finish my degree; I chose to limit my job search geographically. I did not get the one job that I wanted, possibly based on the choices I made. But, with a pool of 400 applicants, there's a very good chance that I would not have gotten that job even if I'd made different choiceseven if I'd done the things that everyone was telling me I *HAD* to do along the way to get a tenure-track professorship. There are a lot of miserable, lonely people out there who played by someone else's rules and still don't have jobs. I have no resentment or regret against my children because I chose them, though some people in my position might. My children were first to me, and they would have been first even if I'd gotten this other job. That is my choice in how I mother, and I make that choice every single day when I wake up. http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==Okay let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====
If you try to homeschool with the idea that your pickup truck should
keep up with the speeding train in case she needs to jump from one to
the other, that's kind of how homeschooling goes.
Unschooling doesn't speed alongside the school tracks at all, though.
Thinking that your daughter "plans her learning for the day" is quite
opposite of unschooling, in which you create a rich life and learning
happens all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discuss more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it? Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes the math book is more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? Also, I never suspected that any of my kids would choose to go to school, but some did to play sports, and now they have to due to the divorce. Is it totally reasonable to presume our children might never have to jump tracks?===
Most jobs are learned on the job. Even when someone has to have an
engineering degree to get a job, he will have NO idea what the
projects will be about in advance of his acceptance interview.
Medical school only qualifies people to be residents, where they learn
to be doctors on the job.
Sandra
===in my view the interesting thing about learning on the job is that it often assumes certain skills in numeracy and literacy at least for the professional ones you mention. Few people go to medical skill without being able to read (or at if that, without a literate background through other means). There is certainly a great deal of consideration to be made for issues of numeracy and literacy even in supposedly non-professional settings that are complex and nothing like school learning. Even the mental math we do in grocery stores is complex, but not due to math as much as complex balancing of tradeoffs. In my view the problem with school learning is that it doesn't answer authentic questions and has prescribed endpoints for learning, but I'm not sure if this invalidates schooling per se and is a necessary condition of schooling, or if another kind of schooling can be valuable. What do you think?====
I'd like to respond to some of the questions and great insights -- I organized things around questions I wanted to answer, and comments I wanted to talk about, I tried to keep authors with their posting, but I found for the most part this made the discussion too confusing, so my apologies if your name didn't get included. There was some excellent pieces of advice/thoughts I'd like to respond to.
"I've been reading more about how this unschooling works. Being forced to do anything really does more harm than good. "
== Insistence leads to resistence is it simply just rude to be the judge of what someone must learn? I had an interesting conversation today with Heidi. She has homeschooled in the past, schooled, and I asked her if she wanted to unschool. She definitely chose the later. She has me a bit kicking and screaming along the way. I think part of it is my own history of homeschooling. When I began there was no internet, I worked to create a rich learning environment for my (eventually) 12 children to share in. We bounced around between philosophies, and I think in all it was kind of a cycle we followed unit studies, exhaustion then nothing, traditional books, boredom, back to the next unit study. Some of the kids were able to unschool themselves and ran their own learning and I supported that, but I never felt that I could do unschooling justice with so many kids. Part of that was I think because my kids needed some experiences that I was not equipped or able to give them. I also began when we had to hide from the law. I see that fear is still with me.===
Questions to answer:
How old is Heidi and why does she need to go back to school in a year or so?
I wonder why you are keeping this big reservation - "have to put her back in school" - in your mind. If there is some reason that you will "have to" put her back in school, it might be worth revealing.
==Heidi is 11, and while I am finishing my graduate school she can stay home with me, but I fear that a job job might make unschooling difficult. And, there are some things that high school can offer her that she may want later. I'm a single mom with four kids at home, and other kids I keep up with who live with their Dad, and grad school to boot. My context of homeschooling is very different than the life we are leading now. My view of unschoolers is of parents with a lot going on that the kids can join in on, and two parents. I feel rather inadequate to meet Heidi's request.===
-=-I have been having her keep a learning journal where she records
her activities and plans her learning for the day. -=-
This is your new unschooling plan, or that's what you have been doing
as part of the structured homeschooling?
===We didn't journal unless we wanted to before. I just don't know if I can record Heidi's learning adequately if I attempt to do it, much happens outside of my awareness and it can be difficult to capture without her input.===
Advice I like and questions I have about it:
As far as journaling for record keeping to be legal: First, is it necessary? Second, do you know your laws? and, Third, Why aren't you, the mom, doing the record keeping if it's necessary?
If it's not necessary, then journaling should be up to the person doing the journaling.
As to being behind, well depending on how old she is, much of what goes on in school is repetition. If she is high school age and wanting a diploma, that's different and will usually require some sort of credit hours.
I think the legal requirements of homeschooling are the parents' business and responsibility. Don't assume what these would be, and don't do more than the law absolutely requires.
==I think this is a good point, I'm trying to shift the burden to Heidi in ways that really don't fulfill my responsible protective role for her. I feel that, thanks for making it explicit. On the other hand, as I said before, it can be difficult to capture the spontaneous learning of another. Many of her thinking and activities are outside of my observation. It can be difficult at times to catch up on these conversations with the pressing needs of other children.==
IF you want to unschool:
I think having any kind of journal *requirement* is a barrier both to deschooling and unschooling in the long run.
I think she is not experiencing her freedom while she is having to account to you for the learning value of her activities.
I think you won't be able to see natural learning working fully while you are insisting on keeping the learning schoolish.
===I wonder if she can see the journal as not accountability to me, but protective for herself and a resource to draw from. I mean, after all, people will ask her about her learning all the time. It was one thing to answer this as homeschoolers in away that navigated the social space safely for my kids. Don't others face this issue?===
Don't try to dissect what she is learning, and don't continue to ask her to do so. Just give her time to genuinely deschool, and then help her do what she wants to *do*. The learning happens automatically.
Support her computer time with practical help - bring snacks, check her comfort - instead of evaluating it.
===I think this is very good advice on her use of computer games, also I celebrated some of her wins and asked her why she liked some of her games. Eventually we got into some good conversations in the flow of our day I'm starting to suspect that this is where the magic of unschooling is == normal respectful dialogue with my daughter about what is interesting for her and us.==
Unschooling isn't about merely minimizing the painful. It is about living a wonderful life today.
-=- I'm nervous because if I do have to put her back in school in a
year or so,-=-
Why would you "have to" do that?
Please think about "have to":
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==I read the web page, and I'd like to argue for a minute that this rhetoric of choices is more a middle class reality, to quote===
Choice is a really important conceptnot just semantics. It's the difference between anger, regret, resentment and happiness, comfort and joy in life. I chose to have my children when in grad school; I chose to follow my husband to New Mexico instead of staying at PSU to teach and raise two babies by myself; I chose to finish my degree; I chose to limit my job search geographically. I did not get the one job that I wanted, possibly based on the choices I made. But, with a pool of 400 applicants, there's a very good chance that I would not have gotten that job even if I'd made different choiceseven if I'd done the things that everyone was telling me I *HAD* to do along the way to get a tenure-track professorship. There are a lot of miserable, lonely people out there who played by someone else's rules and still don't have jobs. I have no resentment or regret against my children because I chose them, though some people in my position might. My children were first to me, and they would have been first even if I'd gotten this other job. That is my choice in how I mother, and I make that choice every single day when I wake up. http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==Okay let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====
If you try to homeschool with the idea that your pickup truck should
keep up with the speeding train in case she needs to jump from one to
the other, that's kind of how homeschooling goes.
Unschooling doesn't speed alongside the school tracks at all, though.
Thinking that your daughter "plans her learning for the day" is quite
opposite of unschooling, in which you create a rich life and learning
happens all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discuss more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it? Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes the math book is more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? Also, I never suspected that any of my kids would choose to go to school, but some did to play sports, and now they have to due to the divorce. Is it totally reasonable to presume our children might never have to jump tracks?===
Most jobs are learned on the job. Even when someone has to have an
engineering degree to get a job, he will have NO idea what the
projects will be about in advance of his acceptance interview.
Medical school only qualifies people to be residents, where they learn
to be doctors on the job.
Sandra
===in my view the interesting thing about learning on the job is that it often assumes certain skills in numeracy and literacy at least for the professional ones you mention. Few people go to medical skill without being able to read (or at if that, without a literate background through other means). There is certainly a great deal of consideration to be made for issues of numeracy and literacy even in supposedly non-professional settings that are complex and nothing like school learning. Even the mental math we do in grocery stores is complex, but not due to math as much as complex balancing of tradeoffs. In my view the problem with school learning is that it doesn't answer authentic questions and has prescribed endpoints for learning, but I'm not sure if this invalidates schooling per se and is a necessary condition of schooling, or if another kind of schooling can be valuable. What do you think?====
Sandra Dodd
===I wonder if she can see the journal as not accountability to me,
but protective for herself and a resource to draw from. I mean, after
all, people will ask her about her learning all the time. It was one
thing to answer this as homeschoolers in away that navigated the
social space safely for my kids. Don't others face this issue?===
When you respond, please put other people's words in quotation marks
of some sort, Pointy brackets will disappear in the yahoogroups
formatting, so what you're using is fine, but should go on the quotes
of others, rather than the new writing, please.
Others who are committed to unschooling don't face the issue of
requiring journals of their kids. I've never seen it. If people ask
about her learning, being prepared with some cool examples of recent
learning is the way to go. Casual questioners won't want to read her
journal.
-=- http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==Okay � let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is
that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am
well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my
children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides
income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my
job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because
I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many
interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and
resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our
philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear
choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====-=-
My first thought is that you seem to being vaguely insulting,
somehow. What do you think?
My second thought is that not everyone can unschool. It's not as easy
as it looks. It's not anyone's "right" and it might not be doable at
all for many families.
The justifications and explanations in your very long post were much
more about curriculum and math books and formal learning than about
unschooling.
What I know about choice and the "have to" page is that it's a tool
many people have used to be able to move from feeling powerless to
being able to see their options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
but protective for herself and a resource to draw from. I mean, after
all, people will ask her about her learning all the time. It was one
thing to answer this as homeschoolers in away that navigated the
social space safely for my kids. Don't others face this issue?===
When you respond, please put other people's words in quotation marks
of some sort, Pointy brackets will disappear in the yahoogroups
formatting, so what you're using is fine, but should go on the quotes
of others, rather than the new writing, please.
Others who are committed to unschooling don't face the issue of
requiring journals of their kids. I've never seen it. If people ask
about her learning, being prepared with some cool examples of recent
learning is the way to go. Casual questioners won't want to read her
journal.
-=- http://sandradodd.com/haveto
==Okay � let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is
that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am
well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my
children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides
income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my
job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because
I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many
interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and
resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our
philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear
choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====-=-
My first thought is that you seem to being vaguely insulting,
somehow. What do you think?
My second thought is that not everyone can unschool. It's not as easy
as it looks. It's not anyone's "right" and it might not be doable at
all for many families.
The justifications and explanations in your very long post were much
more about curriculum and math books and formal learning than about
unschooling.
What I know about choice and the "have to" page is that it's a tool
many people have used to be able to move from feeling powerless to
being able to see their options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'll quote from a long post to put this out where others can comment.
The first part was me. The second part is Katherinev (kvonduyke@...)
-=-Unschooling doesn't speed alongside the school tracks at all, though.
Thinking that your daughter "plans her learning for the day" is quite
opposite of unschooling, in which you create a rich life and learning
happens all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discuss
more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I
will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it?
Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get
her to the math she will need for designing clothes � the math book is
more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced
understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
I don't think creating a rich life is a challenge. I think creating a
rich life is what unschooling is.
I'm not interested in a nuanced understanding of curriculum. I'm
interested in replacing the idea of the need for a curriculum with
living a rich life.
Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The first part was me. The second part is Katherinev (kvonduyke@...)
-=-Unschooling doesn't speed alongside the school tracks at all, though.
Thinking that your daughter "plans her learning for the day" is quite
opposite of unschooling, in which you create a rich life and learning
happens all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discuss
more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I
will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it?
Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get
her to the math she will need for designing clothes � the math book is
more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced
understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
I don't think creating a rich life is a challenge. I think creating a
rich life is what unschooling is.
I'm not interested in a nuanced understanding of curriculum. I'm
interested in replacing the idea of the need for a curriculum with
living a rich life.
Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 4, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Katherinev wrote:
The main idea is about seeing everything we do as a choice.
What locks people in "have to" thinking is they close the doors of
choices they will not for various reasons take. They often end up
with only one door open and it feels like they have to take it. And
they feel trapped.
For instance I won't, for lots of good reasons, leave my husband. But
that's not the same as having to stay with him. I *could* choose to
empty the bank account and head off to parts unknown to him. Every
day I choose not to do that, I am making the choice to stay with him.
That mental shift can be incredibly freeing. A situation that looked
like a box with no exits suddenly becomes a wide open field that
someone is choosing to stay in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ==I read the web page, and I'd like to argue for a minute that thisThe ideas on that page aren't about privilege that provides options.
> rhetoric of choices is more a middle class reality, to quote===
The main idea is about seeing everything we do as a choice.
What locks people in "have to" thinking is they close the doors of
choices they will not for various reasons take. They often end up
with only one door open and it feels like they have to take it. And
they feel trapped.
For instance I won't, for lots of good reasons, leave my husband. But
that's not the same as having to stay with him. I *could* choose to
empty the bank account and head off to parts unknown to him. Every
day I choose not to do that, I am making the choice to stay with him.
That mental shift can be incredibly freeing. A situation that looked
like a box with no exits suddenly becomes a wide open field that
someone is choosing to stay in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
d.lewis
***Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.***
I see sewing machines and fabric offered on the Freecycle lists all the
time. And I bet if you shopped around you could find fashion design
software for less than the price of a new textbook.
Before there was software people used pencils and paper. Way cheaper than a
textbook. <g>
When I met Robyn Coburn she was wearing a hat designed by Jayn. That was a
long time ago - I think Jayn was five. (?) An eleven year old can surely
design clothes.
Didn't Holly Dodd revamp some old funky tie-die shirt of Sandra's?
Goodwill has racks and racks of old prom and bridesmaid dresses just hanging
around waiting for a new life. <g>
A really good way to get comfortable with the math involved in designing
clothing is to design clothing.
Deb Lewis
clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.***
I see sewing machines and fabric offered on the Freecycle lists all the
time. And I bet if you shopped around you could find fashion design
software for less than the price of a new textbook.
Before there was software people used pencils and paper. Way cheaper than a
textbook. <g>
When I met Robyn Coburn she was wearing a hat designed by Jayn. That was a
long time ago - I think Jayn was five. (?) An eleven year old can surely
design clothes.
Didn't Holly Dodd revamp some old funky tie-die shirt of Sandra's?
Goodwill has racks and racks of old prom and bridesmaid dresses just hanging
around waiting for a new life. <g>
A really good way to get comfortable with the math involved in designing
clothing is to design clothing.
Deb Lewis
sheeboo2
There are a few things I'd like to address about your comments--I'll start with the journal first.
It is really important to be familiar with the laws in your state. In PA, one of the most heavily regulated states in the country, even your daughter's (theoretical?) journal wouldn't do the trick. It would be one piece of the puzzle, but wouldn't fulfill all the requirements--at least not in my school district.
In my past life as a university instructor, I required reading journals. These were somewhat helpful (and I preferred them to quizzes) in asking students to think about what they were reading, but they definitely fell short in many aspects. One major downfall, and this is my concern with asking your daughter to journal, is that as soon as someone else is a reader of said journal, the author will censor. Imagine if your daughter believes a school superintendent will be reading it---not exactly the kind of unrestrained, free-flowing ideas you're hoping for.
Another downfall is that ideas need to marinate--asking her to write things down on a daily basis might invite a myopic view.
In regards to your comment that "I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege, " I don't necessarily see that in the "Have to" page, but I do agree that unschooling seems almost impossible for families in other income/class brackets, but that is a more political discussion than this list is for....
Brie
It is really important to be familiar with the laws in your state. In PA, one of the most heavily regulated states in the country, even your daughter's (theoretical?) journal wouldn't do the trick. It would be one piece of the puzzle, but wouldn't fulfill all the requirements--at least not in my school district.
In my past life as a university instructor, I required reading journals. These were somewhat helpful (and I preferred them to quizzes) in asking students to think about what they were reading, but they definitely fell short in many aspects. One major downfall, and this is my concern with asking your daughter to journal, is that as soon as someone else is a reader of said journal, the author will censor. Imagine if your daughter believes a school superintendent will be reading it---not exactly the kind of unrestrained, free-flowing ideas you're hoping for.
Another downfall is that ideas need to marinate--asking her to write things down on a daily basis might invite a myopic view.
In regards to your comment that "I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege, " I don't necessarily see that in the "Have to" page, but I do agree that unschooling seems almost impossible for families in other income/class brackets, but that is a more political discussion than this list is for....
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Didn't Holly Dodd revamp some old funky tie-die shirt of Sandra's?-=-
Several t-shirts, as skirts. She knows how to wear a t-shirt as a
dress.
Some people love doing costumes, and those might sell too, I bet, so
the hobby has the potential to be partly self-supporting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Several t-shirts, as skirts. She knows how to wear a t-shirt as a
dress.
Some people love doing costumes, and those might sell too, I bet, so
the hobby has the potential to be partly self-supporting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ana Maria Bruce
===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discuss more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I
will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it? Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes – the math book is
more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
There are some really good dressmaking books you can get from the library. The math in those books are the true short cut. Plus she will already be designing clothes while she is learning the math for it. Take it from a seamstress.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it? Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes – the math book is
more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
There are some really good dressmaking books you can get from the library. The math in those books are the true short cut. Plus she will already be designing clothes while she is learning the math for it. Take it from a seamstress.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cara Barlow
> ===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discussTone in email is hard to convey, so please know that I mean this in a kind
> more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I
> will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it?
> Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
> doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get
> her to the math she will need for designing clothes � the math book is
> more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced
> understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
>
>
>
>
voice. If you want to unschool, you need to set the curriculum aside. I'm
not saying it won't be scary, but you both need to set it aside. I speak
from experience <g>.
My daughter just turned 14, and she's been interested in design for about
two years. She's especially interested in knitting and crocheting, which
require math skills and sensitivity to patterns. She's self-taught, using
the resources on the Lion Brand website, some knitting books and trial and
error. She learns what she needs when she needs it. Sometimes she makes
mistakes, but it doesn't rattle her - she knows that's part of the process.
She sells her hats and fingerless gloves at a local store.
She was in public school until she was almost 10, we did some Keys to
Mathematics workbooks when we were "homeschooling," but she hasn't done a
math curriculum in probably almost four years. I can't remember exactly how
long it's been - math curriculum was the first to go for us <g>.
Heidi doesn't need a math curriculum to make patterns. The Internet is a
wonderful resource if she needs help understanding how to do something -
YouTube is especially great. Instead of thinking of her as a kid who needs
to learn how to do math, think of her as a person who needs help making her
patterns.
If design is one of Heidi's interests, maybe you could think about how to
support her in that interest, to begin creating a rich environment for her.
Does she need time, materials, a workspace, a mentor, a visit to some cool
stores for ideas, help finding fashion websites? You don't need to do it all
at once. Think about what would help her the most now, or be the most
interesting to her right now. Check out freecycle, your local 4-H office and
the public library for supplies, books and support.
A couple of weeks ago I took Anna and four of her friends to a used clothing
store in Cambridge MA that's been there since I was in college. They all
bought dresses - Anna found a yellow sundress, probably from the 1950's that
cost $15.00. We're cleaning and repairing the dress so she can wear it to a
dance in June - we're both enjoying bringing her beautiful dress back to
life. It's fun!
Best wishes, Cara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
Sorry, I didn't have time to finish my thoughts before.
I'm not sure exactly how political, vs. practical/authentic experience this list is meant to be, so I probably shouldn't have made the previous comment, although my guess is it is far more helpful to speak of real-life situations....
Back to record keeping--
For my records that I need to share with the school district, I sit down once a week and plonk our activities into neat little categories (Social Science, Science, Language Arts, Math, Safety, etc) that suit the purpose of "proving" we're "learning." Perhaps you and your daughter can sit down once a week and review her activities together and sort them in a way that will work for whatever you're required to show to others.
This website, "Edu-Speak: The Dictionary," has been really helpful: http://ulfaq.home.comcast.net/~ulfaq/eduspeak.html
B
I'm not sure exactly how political, vs. practical/authentic experience this list is meant to be, so I probably shouldn't have made the previous comment, although my guess is it is far more helpful to speak of real-life situations....
Back to record keeping--
For my records that I need to share with the school district, I sit down once a week and plonk our activities into neat little categories (Social Science, Science, Language Arts, Math, Safety, etc) that suit the purpose of "proving" we're "learning." Perhaps you and your daughter can sit down once a week and review her activities together and sort them in a way that will work for whatever you're required to show to others.
This website, "Edu-Speak: The Dictionary," has been really helpful: http://ulfaq.home.comcast.net/~ulfaq/eduspeak.html
B
sheeboo2
oops--the other link to eduspeak:
http://a2zhomeschool.com/homeschool/about/glossary/educationese-homeschool-reports/
http://a2zhomeschool.com/homeschool/about/glossary/educationese-homeschool-reports/
rosehavencottage
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Tracy
>We just finished watching Pretty in Pink with Molly Ringwald (from 1986). She plays Andie, a girl from the poor side of town who falls for a boy from the rich side of town. Anywho, she designs and makes the cutest outfits to wear and her style is very unique. It would be a great movie for anyone interested in fashion & design! :)
>
> I don't think creating a rich life is a challenge. I think creating a
> rich life is what unschooling is.
>
> I'm not interested in a nuanced understanding of curriculum. I'm
> interested in replacing the idea of the need for a curriculum with
> living a rich life.
>
> Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
> clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.
>
> Sandra
Tracy
Jenny Cyphers
==Heidi is 11, and while I am finishing my graduate school she can stay home with me, but I fear that a job job might make unschooling difficult. And, there are some things that high school can offer her that she may want later. .===
Potential future jobs and potential future school is far off from where you are now. If, when you are at that stage and you find that school is better than no school, then that's what you should do. High school age kids can be very creative in how they fill their schedules around a parent's work schedule and you may find that it won't matter whether or not she's in school.
==I read the web page, and I'd like to argue for a minute that this rhetoric of choices is more a middle class reality, to quote===
I'm not so sure about that. Just thinking about it in general in a world wide way, everywhere, everyone, all over the world is making choices. Sure some people make choices that get them killed, or are so far against their societal norms that they ostracize themselves or endanger themselves, but still they are making choices.
==Okay – let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====
Being "well educated" has little to do with an unschooling parent. Knowing how to think and be creative and explore are far more essential. Since unschooling requires thought, it generally goes that an unschooling parent is more knowledgeable about lots of things, not necessarily "well educated".
There are people who unschool and have nice incomes and there are people that unschool and are near the poverty line. There are some people who unschool, who both work, and there are far more folks that unschool on one income, or 2 part time ones. Having 2 parents helps enormously, but there are people who do it being single.
Unschooling is a priviledge, but it doesn't have to do with middle class incomes so much as it has to do with parents who have that as their priority and make it happen. In other words, the parents are choosing to do so despite or because of their financial abilities to do so. Having money helps.
==Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes – the math book is more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? ===
Text book math has very little to do with designing clothing. This is clearly an area that deschooling needs to happen. Sewing and designing can and does incorporate mathematical skills, but it's certainly not necessary to prepare for sewing and designing by doing math first. I'd say that the math will and can be learned as a side effect of doing the sewing and designing. Why isn't she designing clothing if this is something that interests her? There are so many resources to draw from if that is something she's interested in. One can learn about the whole wide world by learning about fashion and design, through history, commerce, cultural differences, textiles, recycling, etc.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Potential future jobs and potential future school is far off from where you are now. If, when you are at that stage and you find that school is better than no school, then that's what you should do. High school age kids can be very creative in how they fill their schedules around a parent's work schedule and you may find that it won't matter whether or not she's in school.
==I read the web page, and I'd like to argue for a minute that this rhetoric of choices is more a middle class reality, to quote===
I'm not so sure about that. Just thinking about it in general in a world wide way, everywhere, everyone, all over the world is making choices. Sure some people make choices that get them killed, or are so far against their societal norms that they ostracize themselves or endanger themselves, but still they are making choices.
==Okay – let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====
Being "well educated" has little to do with an unschooling parent. Knowing how to think and be creative and explore are far more essential. Since unschooling requires thought, it generally goes that an unschooling parent is more knowledgeable about lots of things, not necessarily "well educated".
There are people who unschool and have nice incomes and there are people that unschool and are near the poverty line. There are some people who unschool, who both work, and there are far more folks that unschool on one income, or 2 part time ones. Having 2 parents helps enormously, but there are people who do it being single.
Unschooling is a priviledge, but it doesn't have to do with middle class incomes so much as it has to do with parents who have that as their priority and make it happen. In other words, the parents are choosing to do so despite or because of their financial abilities to do so. Having money helps.
==Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get her to the math she will need for designing clothes – the math book is more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced understanding of curriculum, what do you think? ===
Text book math has very little to do with designing clothing. This is clearly an area that deschooling needs to happen. Sewing and designing can and does incorporate mathematical skills, but it's certainly not necessary to prepare for sewing and designing by doing math first. I'd say that the math will and can be learned as a side effect of doing the sewing and designing. Why isn't she designing clothing if this is something that interests her? There are so many resources to draw from if that is something she's interested in. One can learn about the whole wide world by learning about fashion and design, through history, commerce, cultural differences, textiles, recycling, etc.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Others who are committed to unschooling don't face the issue of
requiring journals of their kids. I've never seen it. If people ask
about her learning, being prepared with some cool examples of recent
learning is the way to go. Casual questioners won't want to read her
journal.***
Something that had occurred to me when I was reading about the journal writing as a form of justifying learning, is why not put the child in school, if that's the reason? Schools must justify all the things they make kids do, to make sure that all the taxpayers see that learning is happening.
In the absence of that, why journal for anything other than personal reasons? If someone lives where there are lots of regulations for homeschooling, then maybe the parents should be keeping track in a similar fashion that schools do. Does a parent really need to "know" everything that their child is learning anymore than a school does? If you've "exposed" your child to "x y and z", then you can, for the purposes of legalities, mark that off the list, just like schools do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
requiring journals of their kids. I've never seen it. If people ask
about her learning, being prepared with some cool examples of recent
learning is the way to go. Casual questioners won't want to read her
journal.***
Something that had occurred to me when I was reading about the journal writing as a form of justifying learning, is why not put the child in school, if that's the reason? Schools must justify all the things they make kids do, to make sure that all the taxpayers see that learning is happening.
In the absence of that, why journal for anything other than personal reasons? If someone lives where there are lots of regulations for homeschooling, then maybe the parents should be keeping track in a similar fashion that schools do. Does a parent really need to "know" everything that their child is learning anymore than a school does? If you've "exposed" your child to "x y and z", then you can, for the purposes of legalities, mark that off the list, just like schools do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katherine von Duyke
> "Others who are committed to unschooling don't face the issue ofSo do people keep portfolios instead or other records of their children's activities?
> requiring journals of their kids. I've never seen it. If people ask
> about her learning, being prepared with some cool examples of recent
> learning is the way to go. Casual questioners won't want to read her
> journal."
>I don't intend to be insulting, but to push the envelope on the underlying meaning of "choices" in this passage and "have to". This passage seems to be answering a lot of cultural questions and issues through justifying why this choice is permissable for this family. I do not find in it an overall answer to "half-to's" please enlighten me if I am missing something.
> -=- http://sandradodd.com/haveto
> ==Okay � let me respond rather cynically to this post. What I hear is
> that; no one can call my unschooling into question because 1) I am
> well educated, 2) I am middle class and care for and provide for my
> children above cultural reproach, 3) I have a husband who provides
> income so I can devote my time to my children, and 4) I sacrificed my
> job possibilities for the sake of my family ie I'm not home because
> I'm too dumb to work, and 5) we can afford to run our children to many
> interesting activities, and 6) we have the cultural capital and
> resources to counter-sue if anyone raises issues with our
> philosophical approach to our children's education. I don't hear
> choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====-=-
>
> "My first thought is that you seem to being vaguely insulting,
> somehow. What do you think?"
>This in general is interesting to me, because I sort of hear of unschooling as the best way to learn, but best and doable seem to be somewhat at odds in your response here. I agree with you on all your points, but can you elaborate a little on what makes it not so easy?
> "My second thought is that not everyone can unschool. It's not as easy
> as it looks. It's not anyone's "right" and it might not be doable at
> all for many families."
>I'm asking questions from a position of authentic inquiry, not an interest in justifications. I certainly have no interest in promoting formal learning, but I wonder if the issue is about "formal or text" vs real learning, or if the issue is really about purpose and agency in learning. Is it that learning must happen in the doing of productive jobs to be authentic? That learning from a text is inauthentic? If so, then what about people who read manuals to get up to speed in certain parts of their job? Is it authentic?
> "The justifications and explanations in your very long post were much
> more about curriculum and math books and formal learning than about
> unschooling."
>I wonder if it can help some people feel empowered and others more discouraged? Have you asked?
> "What I know about choice and the "have to" page is that it's a tool
> many people have used to be able to move from feeling powerless to
> being able to see their options."
Kathy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katherine von Duyke
> "===This is very interesting reading, which I would like to discussThat's certainly a valid suggestion, and Heidi may be working up to that, she is finding people who are doing that on Youtube and starting to learn what is possible. At this point we are attempting to gather a sewing machine and supplies. I don't think doing a math text is curriculum itself -- curriculum actually means I think the course of one's life. Heidi sees the text as a means to her end, maybe it comes from schooling and that's why she perceives it that way.
> more in another post that hasn't gone over the top such as this one. I
> will say that, "creating a rich life" is the challenge isn't it?
> Yesterday I discussed this with Heidi, and she told me that she liked
> doing math out of a textbook because it was a short hand way to get
> her to the math she will need for designing clothes � the math book is
> more accessible to her than design. I think this is a very nuanced
> understanding of curriculum, what do you think? -=-
>
>
> I don't think creating a rich life is a challenge. I think creating a
> rich life is what unschooling is.
>
> I'm not interested in a nuanced understanding of curriculum. I'm
> interested in replacing the idea of the need for a curriculum with
> living a rich life.
>
> Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
> clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.">
> Sandra
I think the notion that creating a rich life as the core of what unschooling is seems to be the best explanation I have heard to date on it. But, I wonder, say if there are three children in the family, what happens when one of them expresses a strong interest and develops something that the other children are drawn into. Is this then authentic learning for the other kids? If so what makes it more valid than a parent doing something that attracts the interest of those two? And I'm not trying to be obnoxious, these are questions I've wrestled with in attempting to develop an enriched environment for my own children.
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Katherine von Duyke
"In my past life as a university instructor, I required reading journals. These were somewhat helpful (and I preferred them to quizzes) in asking students to think about what they were reading, but they definitely fell short in many aspects. One major downfall, and this is my concern with asking your daughter to journal, is that as soon as someone else is a reader of said journal, the author will censor. Imagine if your daughter believes a school superintendent will be reading it---not exactly the kind of unrestrained, free-flowing ideas you're hoping for. Another downfall is that ideas need to marinate--asking her to write things down on a daily basis might invite a myopic view." Brie
Good point! I think it is a start but the whole record keeping thing is very burdensome. How to make it less burdensome, how to make it less in general seem important. At this point I don't "have-to" keep records beyond attendance, but that assurance can go out the window with a court case. Maybe I should simply keep photos on her work as a record, and notes rather than a journal per se.
"In regards to your comment that "I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege, " I don't necessarily see that in the "Have to" page, but I do agree that unschooling seems almost impossible for families in other income/class brackets, but that is a more political discussion than this list is for...." Brie
I'm not sure its political, I think these are real issues that people, including myself have to sort through and deal with. It is an honest question this half-to because as Sandra said in an earlier posting,
"My second thought is that not everyone can unschool. It's not as easy
as it looks. It's not anyone's "right" and it might not be doable at
all for many families."
This says to me that when considering what one "has-to" do is contingent on important contextual issues which I am trying to sort out. Should parents be well educatated in order to unschool? It seems that many are. Should there be a certain level of wealth present? WHat might that be? Is the number of children a factor? Stability of the marriage? What if these factors change? It can be quite burdensome to talk about ideals without contextual factors. What does it take to build a rich life?
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Good point! I think it is a start but the whole record keeping thing is very burdensome. How to make it less burdensome, how to make it less in general seem important. At this point I don't "have-to" keep records beyond attendance, but that assurance can go out the window with a court case. Maybe I should simply keep photos on her work as a record, and notes rather than a journal per se.
"In regards to your comment that "I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege, " I don't necessarily see that in the "Have to" page, but I do agree that unschooling seems almost impossible for families in other income/class brackets, but that is a more political discussion than this list is for...." Brie
I'm not sure its political, I think these are real issues that people, including myself have to sort through and deal with. It is an honest question this half-to because as Sandra said in an earlier posting,
"My second thought is that not everyone can unschool. It's not as easy
as it looks. It's not anyone's "right" and it might not be doable at
all for many families."
This says to me that when considering what one "has-to" do is contingent on important contextual issues which I am trying to sort out. Should parents be well educatated in order to unschool? It seems that many are. Should there be a certain level of wealth present? WHat might that be? Is the number of children a factor? Stability of the marriage? What if these factors change? It can be quite burdensome to talk about ideals without contextual factors. What does it take to build a rich life?
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Katherine von Duyke
"***Why, instead of doing math out of a textbook, can the girl not design
clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.***
I see sewing machines and fabric offered on the Freecycle lists all the
time. And I bet if you shopped around you could find fashion design
software for less than the price of a new textbook.
Before there was software people used pencils and paper. Way cheaper than a
textbook. <g>
When I met Robyn Coburn she was wearing a hat designed by Jayn. That was a
long time ago - I think Jayn was five. (?) An eleven year old can surely
design clothes.
Didn't Holly Dodd revamp some old funky tie-die shirt of Sandra's?
Goodwill has racks and racks of old prom and bridesmaid dresses just hanging
around waiting for a new life. <g>
A really good way to get comfortable with the math involved in designing
clothing is to design clothing."
Deb Lewis
Oh good idea on freecycle -- I had forgotten, I bet I could get fabric for not much on ebay, sometimes you fabric in goodwill on the curtain racks. I wonder how much math is needed in designing clothes, from the books I remember reading, it was a pretty complex process. I might take her to UD textile and design classes to see a little of what goes on at a college level -- I think the designing involved in re-designing doesn't require math as much as shaping.
Kathy von Duyke
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clothes now? She could sew them up and sell them online.***
I see sewing machines and fabric offered on the Freecycle lists all the
time. And I bet if you shopped around you could find fashion design
software for less than the price of a new textbook.
Before there was software people used pencils and paper. Way cheaper than a
textbook. <g>
When I met Robyn Coburn she was wearing a hat designed by Jayn. That was a
long time ago - I think Jayn was five. (?) An eleven year old can surely
design clothes.
Didn't Holly Dodd revamp some old funky tie-die shirt of Sandra's?
Goodwill has racks and racks of old prom and bridesmaid dresses just hanging
around waiting for a new life. <g>
A really good way to get comfortable with the math involved in designing
clothing is to design clothing."
Deb Lewis
Oh good idea on freecycle -- I had forgotten, I bet I could get fabric for not much on ebay, sometimes you fabric in goodwill on the curtain racks. I wonder how much math is needed in designing clothes, from the books I remember reading, it was a pretty complex process. I might take her to UD textile and design classes to see a little of what goes on at a college level -- I think the designing involved in re-designing doesn't require math as much as shaping.
Kathy von Duyke
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Gwen
I *hated* having to keep a journal in school.
I had to keep 3 or 4 different ones during my school time and I dreaded every one.
Gwen
<naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
In my past life as a university instructor, I required reading journals. These were somewhat helpful (and I preferred them to quizzes) in asking students to think about what they were reading, but they definitely fell short in many aspects. One major downfall, and this is my concern with asking your daughter to journal, is that as soon as someone else is a reader of said journal, the author will censor. Imagine if your daughter believes a school superintendent will be reading it---not exactly the kind of unrestrained, free-flowing ideas you're hoping for.
I had to keep 3 or 4 different ones during my school time and I dreaded every one.
Gwen
<naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
In my past life as a university instructor, I required reading journals. These were somewhat helpful (and I preferred them to quizzes) in asking students to think about what they were reading, but they definitely fell short in many aspects. One major downfall, and this is my concern with asking your daughter to journal, is that as soon as someone else is a reader of said journal, the author will censor. Imagine if your daughter believes a school superintendent will be reading it---not exactly the kind of unrestrained, free-flowing ideas you're hoping for.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< When I met Robyn Coburn she was wearing a hat designed by Jayn. That
was a
She made that hat too. I threaded the needle for her, but she did the
sewing.
If the girl wants to design clothes, she could start with dolls clothes. She
could also work with paper patterns. I learnt to sew from methodically
following the instructions on paper patterns.
The easiest to start with is simple skirts, then pajama type pants or
sweats, simple tops, shift dresses/nightgown, then blouses with collars,
then shirts with yokes, then shirt dresses, tailored pants, and boxy
jackets, then lined jackets and men's tailored pants, finally tailored
overcoats and mens suits, and evening wear. That is in order of sewing
difficulty in my opinion as a sewist of 30 years experience.
She will not find much of the math from textbooks beyond simple arithmetic
helpful for the actual clothing designing. This I know for sure. Maybe the
most basic understanding of percentages for fabric blends, but it's just
getting familiar with the feel of 100% silk versus 50/50 polyrayon.
What you do need to know, because it is intensely useful, is simple circle
geometry.
Here are the formulae to remember (with the limitations of the word program
of my email):
C=2 x pi x r
A= pi x r squared
There - no need to stress over the math text book.
However I suppose what you are really concerned about is the math needed to
get into college to study fashion design. Probably all she needs is one
semester of remedial math at community college to have enough on paper
credits, along with all the people who were at school the whole time but
still didn't get math after however many years of boring, text book drill.
If she likes doing the math, that's another story.
OTOH if her portfolio is good and she has talent and vision, the design
school will most likely find ways to accommodate any math credits she might
need.
That is where she should be directing her attention if her passion at the
moment is fashion design - sewing, exploring textiles, fashion magazines,
fashion history and current designers, photography, drawing and color
theory - portfolio development. Even business math is so easily taken care
of with bookkeeping software.
Jayn draws the clothing designs. I sew them for her.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
was a
> long time ago - I think Jayn was five. (?) An eleven year old can surelyBoston wasn't it, so 2004, so Jayn was still four, almost five.
> design clothes.>>>
She made that hat too. I threaded the needle for her, but she did the
sewing.
If the girl wants to design clothes, she could start with dolls clothes. She
could also work with paper patterns. I learnt to sew from methodically
following the instructions on paper patterns.
The easiest to start with is simple skirts, then pajama type pants or
sweats, simple tops, shift dresses/nightgown, then blouses with collars,
then shirts with yokes, then shirt dresses, tailored pants, and boxy
jackets, then lined jackets and men's tailored pants, finally tailored
overcoats and mens suits, and evening wear. That is in order of sewing
difficulty in my opinion as a sewist of 30 years experience.
She will not find much of the math from textbooks beyond simple arithmetic
helpful for the actual clothing designing. This I know for sure. Maybe the
most basic understanding of percentages for fabric blends, but it's just
getting familiar with the feel of 100% silk versus 50/50 polyrayon.
What you do need to know, because it is intensely useful, is simple circle
geometry.
Here are the formulae to remember (with the limitations of the word program
of my email):
C=2 x pi x r
A= pi x r squared
There - no need to stress over the math text book.
However I suppose what you are really concerned about is the math needed to
get into college to study fashion design. Probably all she needs is one
semester of remedial math at community college to have enough on paper
credits, along with all the people who were at school the whole time but
still didn't get math after however many years of boring, text book drill.
If she likes doing the math, that's another story.
OTOH if her portfolio is good and she has talent and vision, the design
school will most likely find ways to accommodate any math credits she might
need.
That is where she should be directing her attention if her passion at the
moment is fashion design - sewing, exploring textiles, fashion magazines,
fashion history and current designers, photography, drawing and color
theory - portfolio development. Even business math is so easily taken care
of with bookkeeping software.
Jayn draws the clothing designs. I sew them for her.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Cara Barlow
When I find myself in Joanne's Fabrics, I go to the back of the store where
they keep their marked-down fabric. It takes some digging, but I can often
find something that I or one of the girls would like for a project for about
$2/yard.
It's an especially good place for finding fabric for doll clothes, aprons,
pajama pants, totebags, those sorts of projects.
Best wishes, Cara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they keep their marked-down fabric. It takes some digging, but I can often
find something that I or one of the girls would like for a project for about
$2/yard.
It's an especially good place for finding fabric for doll clothes, aprons,
pajama pants, totebags, those sorts of projects.
Best wishes, Cara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Katherine von Duyke wrote:
mostly homeschooling method and state law based. So it's a subject
best discussed on a state list.
What is most useful for unschooling is preventing the assessment from
interfering with the child's learning. Some states require testing
but what helps unschooling is finding ways for the assessment to
impact the child's learning as little as possible.
whole "have to" page? Or your "1) I am well educated" paragraph?
Which choice? Which family?
It helps not to expect others to do homework in order to answer your
questions ;-) The easier someone makes it to answer questions, the
more likely they'll get answers. Expect people to want to spend time
answering, not in researching what someone's asking.
their interests and explorations, kids learn effortlessly because it
matches how humans (all learning creatures, really) are hardwired to
learn.
At its core unschooling is about creating an environment that
nurtures a child's learning and their happiness and wholeness. Part
of that environment is building relationships with kids.
If a parent can't or won't let go of the schoolish ideas they have
about what's necessary for learning, it will interfere with the above
process. It's impossible to generalize about what impact or how
extensive the impact will be. It depends on the parents and their
personalities, the children and their personalities and what the
parents are doing or not doing.
As a society we're used to seeing education as a process to apply to
everyone. But unschooling (and homeschooling) should be seen as a
choice parents make for their family. Just because unschooling
matches human hardwiring for learning, if a mom can't let go of the
baggage that prevents her from unschooling, unschooling is not going
to be "best".
understanding. That's not meant as an insult. It's a generalization.
If your understanding of terms is still half or mostly in the other
camp, the questions can't peel back the layers properly. As an
analogy you may be asking about peeling an orange when you're
picturing an onion. The answers you get won't make sense until you
can see that it's an onion you're holding and what we're talking
about is something entirely different.
In terms of learning the "why" is more important than the "what". Two
children can be doing workbooks and one be unschooling and the other
be schooling. If a child and the mom sees the workbook as no
different than any other activity: something to do because its fun or
intriguing, then they're unschooling. If a child sees the workbook as
an important way to acquire skills to use a tool (like math) then
they aren't unschooling. If the mom sees the workbook as an important
way to acquire skills to use a tool (like math) then it's likely
she'll interfere with the child's free learning and get in the way of
unschooling.
Part of what makes unschooling hard to understand is that unschooling
is about what the kids do, but what we talk about here is more about
what the parents do. Given a nurturing, rich environment, kids can't
help but learn naturally. (John Holt said "Fish swim. Humans learn.")
The learning part happens inside the kids and is out of our control.
What's in our control is the environment. Part of the environment is
our attitudes and understanding.
"authentic" is a question that will get you off the path to
understanding unschooling.
We're not trying to remove schoolish learning and replace it with
authentic learning. We're trying to help kids explore what intrigues
them and run the parts of the world through their lives we think
might also intrigue them.
into chunks that are isolated from each other. What's read today as
discouraging may be read next week as encouraging.
Sometimes it's best to just absorb and let ideas percolate. Trust
that there's value in there somewhere because others did find it of
value. Maybe someone won't find the value in it for themselves but
that's okay. They should focus on the parts that have meaning and let
the other ideas gel. Or not.
Joyce
> So do people keep portfolios instead or other records of theirSome do. Depends on the state. Depends on lots of things that are
> children's activities?
mostly homeschooling method and state law based. So it's a subject
best discussed on a state list.
What is most useful for unschooling is preventing the assessment from
interfering with the child's learning. Some states require testing
but what helps unschooling is finding ways for the assessment to
impact the child's learning as little as possible.
> This passage seems to be answering a lot of cultural questions andI don't understand your question. Which "passage"? Do you mean the
> issues through justifying why this choice is permissable for this
> family. I do not find in it an overall answer to "half-to's"
> please enlighten me if I am missing something.
whole "have to" page? Or your "1) I am well educated" paragraph?
Which choice? Which family?
It helps not to expect others to do homework in order to answer your
questions ;-) The easier someone makes it to answer questions, the
more likely they'll get answers. Expect people to want to spend time
answering, not in researching what someone's asking.
> I do not find in it an overall answer to "half-to's"Do you mean "have to"s? Or are you meaning something else?
> I sort of hear of unschooling as the best way to learn, but bestWhen kids have an interesting environment to explore, support for
> and doable seem to be somewhat at odds in your response here.
their interests and explorations, kids learn effortlessly because it
matches how humans (all learning creatures, really) are hardwired to
learn.
At its core unschooling is about creating an environment that
nurtures a child's learning and their happiness and wholeness. Part
of that environment is building relationships with kids.
If a parent can't or won't let go of the schoolish ideas they have
about what's necessary for learning, it will interfere with the above
process. It's impossible to generalize about what impact or how
extensive the impact will be. It depends on the parents and their
personalities, the children and their personalities and what the
parents are doing or not doing.
As a society we're used to seeing education as a process to apply to
everyone. But unschooling (and homeschooling) should be seen as a
choice parents make for their family. Just because unschooling
matches human hardwiring for learning, if a mom can't let go of the
baggage that prevents her from unschooling, unschooling is not going
to be "best".
> but I wonder if the issue is about "formal or text" vs realIt's hard to ask deeper questions when someone has a surface
> learning, or if the issue is really about purpose and agency in
> learning. Is it that learning must happen in the doing of
> productive jobs to be authentic? That learning from a text is
> inauthentic?
understanding. That's not meant as an insult. It's a generalization.
If your understanding of terms is still half or mostly in the other
camp, the questions can't peel back the layers properly. As an
analogy you may be asking about peeling an orange when you're
picturing an onion. The answers you get won't make sense until you
can see that it's an onion you're holding and what we're talking
about is something entirely different.
In terms of learning the "why" is more important than the "what". Two
children can be doing workbooks and one be unschooling and the other
be schooling. If a child and the mom sees the workbook as no
different than any other activity: something to do because its fun or
intriguing, then they're unschooling. If a child sees the workbook as
an important way to acquire skills to use a tool (like math) then
they aren't unschooling. If the mom sees the workbook as an important
way to acquire skills to use a tool (like math) then it's likely
she'll interfere with the child's free learning and get in the way of
unschooling.
Part of what makes unschooling hard to understand is that unschooling
is about what the kids do, but what we talk about here is more about
what the parents do. Given a nurturing, rich environment, kids can't
help but learn naturally. (John Holt said "Fish swim. Humans learn.")
The learning part happens inside the kids and is out of our control.
What's in our control is the environment. Part of the environment is
our attitudes and understanding.
> If so, then what about people who read manuals to get up to speedYou're looking for new rules to replace the old ones. Whether it's
> in certain parts of their job? Is it authentic?
"authentic" is a question that will get you off the path to
understanding unschooling.
We're not trying to remove schoolish learning and replace it with
authentic learning. We're trying to help kids explore what intrigues
them and run the parts of the world through their lives we think
might also intrigue them.
> I wonder if it can help some people feel empowered and others moreUnlike school, real learning isn't linear. It can't be broken down
> discouraged? Have you asked?
into chunks that are isolated from each other. What's read today as
discouraging may be read next week as encouraging.
Sometimes it's best to just absorb and let ideas percolate. Trust
that there's value in there somewhere because others did find it of
value. Maybe someone won't find the value in it for themselves but
that's okay. They should focus on the parts that have meaning and let
the other ideas gel. Or not.
Joyce
Claire
--- In [email protected], Katherine von Duyke <kvonduyke@...> wrote:
1. Parents do not need to be "well-educated" to unschool successfully, but they do need the ability to seek out and absorb the philosophical underpinnings of unschooling, namely trust in their kids' ability to learn, respect for their children's 'personhood', and being mindfully and lovingly present so they can support their children's explorations of the world. They need to set an example of life-long learning.
2. Lack of money does not preclude unschooling. The wealthiest family I know has their son in a very expensive private school. Most of the unschoolers in my local group are surviving on one working-class income. They shop in op-shops, have weekly food budgets, buy clothes at markets, all of which are valuable unschooling experiences. They don't whinge about lack of money because they have actively chosen an unschooling life. (That's not to say that they don't discuss money, but rather that the discussion is not self-pitying.)
3. A prominent family in local unschooling circles here has 6 kids, ranging in age from 21 to 7. They seem to be unschooling very happily. I, with my 2 kids, am unschooling very happily. I think the parents' attitude, rather than the number of children, is key in determining how unschooling will flow.
4. Coming from a broken home myself, it is incredibly clear to me that a strong and loving relationship between parents is a key element in the fabric of an unschooling life. It is not essential, but I do think it provides optimal conditions for unschooling to thrive. In fact, I have found the ideas on relationships gleaned from this list to be just as useful in my daily life as the ideas about children.
5. What it takes to build a rich life is you ... your time, energy, imagination, openness, passion, and optimism.
Claire
>>> This says to me that when considering what one "has-to" do is >>>contingent on important contextual issues which I am trying to >>>sort out. Should parents be well educatated in order to unschool? >>>It seems that many are. Should there be a certain level of wealth >>>present? WHat might that be? Is the number of children a factor? >>>Stability of the marriage? What if these factors change? It can >>>be quite burdensome to talk about ideals without contextual >>>factors. What does it take to build a rich life?My thoughts in response to the above questions:
1. Parents do not need to be "well-educated" to unschool successfully, but they do need the ability to seek out and absorb the philosophical underpinnings of unschooling, namely trust in their kids' ability to learn, respect for their children's 'personhood', and being mindfully and lovingly present so they can support their children's explorations of the world. They need to set an example of life-long learning.
2. Lack of money does not preclude unschooling. The wealthiest family I know has their son in a very expensive private school. Most of the unschoolers in my local group are surviving on one working-class income. They shop in op-shops, have weekly food budgets, buy clothes at markets, all of which are valuable unschooling experiences. They don't whinge about lack of money because they have actively chosen an unschooling life. (That's not to say that they don't discuss money, but rather that the discussion is not self-pitying.)
3. A prominent family in local unschooling circles here has 6 kids, ranging in age from 21 to 7. They seem to be unschooling very happily. I, with my 2 kids, am unschooling very happily. I think the parents' attitude, rather than the number of children, is key in determining how unschooling will flow.
4. Coming from a broken home myself, it is incredibly clear to me that a strong and loving relationship between parents is a key element in the fabric of an unschooling life. It is not essential, but I do think it provides optimal conditions for unschooling to thrive. In fact, I have found the ideas on relationships gleaned from this list to be just as useful in my daily life as the ideas about children.
5. What it takes to build a rich life is you ... your time, energy, imagination, openness, passion, and optimism.
Claire
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Katherine von Duyke wrote:
someone move closer to unschooling? *That's* the question you need to
ask.
If you feel there's unique value as far as acquiring understanding of
math in the math text, then you'll interfere with your daughter
learning how other ways are much better.
I would say absolutely positively she picked up that math comes
(best) from textbooks in school. You can't remove that thought but
you can create an environment where she can discover that's not so
and that there are better ways. Part of that environment will be your
own views of learning and the value of textbooks.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't think doing a math text is curriculum itself -- curriculumDoes the answer to whether or not a math text is curriculum help
> actually means I think the course of one's life.
someone move closer to unschooling? *That's* the question you need to
ask.
If you feel there's unique value as far as acquiring understanding of
math in the math text, then you'll interfere with your daughter
learning how other ways are much better.
I would say absolutely positively she picked up that math comes
(best) from textbooks in school. You can't remove that thought but
you can create an environment where she can discover that's not so
and that there are better ways. Part of that environment will be your
own views of learning and the value of textbooks.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:52 PM, Katherine von Duyke wrote:
are parts she doesn't get, there are ways around the math that will
actually get to the underlying concepts that will build a foundation
for math.
Math is a language that describes the world in a shorthand way.
But unless someone has a grasp of how the world works, the shorthand
has little meaning.
Learning how to fold material in half to cut out both sides of a
garment is much more important than learning about the concept of
"half". The concept of half comes inherently in the doing. The word
half and the symbol 1/2 are just words unless someone has folded
things in various ways.
Let her freely explore design and all things that's she's interested
in, connect directly to it or otherwise. If you overwhelm her with
what she'll "need" to know, it could discourage her. Let her absorb
what intrigues her and she'll build a foundation. Let this be a fun
thing for her to take in whatever direction she wants to go in.
Joyce
> I wonder how much math is needed in designing clothes, from theRight now, today, it only takes what she wants it to take. If there
> books I remember reading, it was a pretty complex process.
are parts she doesn't get, there are ways around the math that will
actually get to the underlying concepts that will build a foundation
for math.
Math is a language that describes the world in a shorthand way.
But unless someone has a grasp of how the world works, the shorthand
has little meaning.
Learning how to fold material in half to cut out both sides of a
garment is much more important than learning about the concept of
"half". The concept of half comes inherently in the doing. The word
half and the symbol 1/2 are just words unless someone has folded
things in various ways.
> I might take her to UD textile and design classes to see a littleGoodness, no. I'm forgetting. Is she 13?
> of what goes on at a college level -- I think the designing
> involved in re-designing doesn't require math as much as shaping.
Let her freely explore design and all things that's she's interested
in, connect directly to it or otherwise. If you overwhelm her with
what she'll "need" to know, it could discourage her. Let her absorb
what intrigues her and she'll build a foundation. Let this be a fun
thing for her to take in whatever direction she wants to go in.
Joyce
Su Penn
> . I don't hear choice, I hear middle class privilege. What do you think?====There's some truth to this, I suppose--I did a big reading project on social class in the last couple of years because I became interested in it, and class stuff goes beyond how much money you have to what kinds of places you're comfortable in, how you relate to authority, whether you know how to navigate certain systems--like getting into and staying in college. One book I read was a memoir by a working-class woman who was the first in her family to go to college. She was admitted to a private college on a scholarship, and after a couple of years, lost the scholarship for some reason. She dropped out because she had no idea--and nobody told her even when she was seeking help from advisors at the school--that it was possible to transfer to a less expensive school. That's a kind of cultural knowledge people who have college in their family history are more likely to know than people who don't, and it made a big difference in her life.
So I would not be surprised if middle-class people in general were more likely to have the means to unschool, and the knowledge of systems and the idea that you can work within and around them that are so valuable to unschoolers--like the idea that you can translate what you're doing into "edu-speak" both requires some knowledge of what jargony educator language sounds like AND the notion that it's OK to be sneaky with authority like that.
That said, I don't find "but this is an expression of your privilege!" to be always a useful thing to think about. Recognizing privilege has become important to me, but it's not always the most useful lens. A friend who is working-class and very politicized about class issues recently used the "well, that's just an expression of your privilege" argument to me when I talked on my blog about what I wear, and I've also had it leveled at me with regard to homeschooling at all.
My response was that if you want to look at the world through that lens and that lens only, almost everything I do every day could be seen as an expression of privilege, from waking up in a clean bed in a warm house in a safe neighborhood, to feeding my kids three meals plus snacks every day, to driving a reliable car, to putting on clothes that are not stained and don't have holes in them, to ordering the kids some used books from Amazon just because I think they might like them, to having the computer and the internet connection to log in to Amazon in the first place...
I've actually had someone tell me I shouldn't homeschool because "not everyone can homeschool" and she found it an intolerable expression of my economic privilege. But by that argument, I shouldn't feed my kids three meals a day because not everyone can, or live in this comfortable if modest neighborhood because not everyone can, or own a car because not everyone can. It becomes ridiculous.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
Nancy Machaj
one of my favorite things to do is to buy "fabric" from the thrift
store. It can be sheets, table cloths, pillowcases, curtains,
blankets, print, solid, vintage, hello kitty...In the houseware
section, so many options! I got a queen size duvet cover (so it had
two pieces of fabric, really) for 3$ that I have made into about 20
resusable grocery bags and there is still more fabric left. I got a
sheet printed with the budweiser logo and made some bags for my
brother in law with it. you can find some really cool fabric very
inexpensively at the thrift store. there are lots of books and
websites about how to alter clothes, too. skirts, tshirts, turning
pants into skirts, etc. I found a pattern online how to turn old
tshirts into pants for babies. I made 10-15 pairs for my son in all
these funky colors and tshirt prints. very inexpensive.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/happychildhood/sets/72157605138675574/
pics of some of my projects :)
nancy
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
store. It can be sheets, table cloths, pillowcases, curtains,
blankets, print, solid, vintage, hello kitty...In the houseware
section, so many options! I got a queen size duvet cover (so it had
two pieces of fabric, really) for 3$ that I have made into about 20
resusable grocery bags and there is still more fabric left. I got a
sheet printed with the budweiser logo and made some bags for my
brother in law with it. you can find some really cool fabric very
inexpensively at the thrift store. there are lots of books and
websites about how to alter clothes, too. skirts, tshirts, turning
pants into skirts, etc. I found a pattern online how to turn old
tshirts into pants for babies. I made 10-15 pairs for my son in all
these funky colors and tshirt prints. very inexpensive.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/happychildhood/sets/72157605138675574/
pics of some of my projects :)
nancy
*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-For my records that I need to share with the school district, I sit
down once a week and plonk our activities into neat little categories
(Social Science, Science, Language Arts, Math, Safety, etc) that suit
the purpose of "proving" we're "learning." Perhaps you and your
daughter can sit down once a week and review her activities together
and sort them in a way that will work for whatever you're required to
show to others.-=-
Check with other unschoolers in your state before you believe what a
school district says. It's VERY common for school personnel to
believe they have powers and controls that they don't even BEGIN to
have, by law.
It's possible for parents to feel so bound and tied by school's
requirements (sometimes the requirements they imagine, more than what
really is required) that the parents can't unschool enough for
unschooling to fly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
down once a week and plonk our activities into neat little categories
(Social Science, Science, Language Arts, Math, Safety, etc) that suit
the purpose of "proving" we're "learning." Perhaps you and your
daughter can sit down once a week and review her activities together
and sort them in a way that will work for whatever you're required to
show to others.-=-
Check with other unschoolers in your state before you believe what a
school district says. It's VERY common for school personnel to
believe they have powers and controls that they don't even BEGIN to
have, by law.
It's possible for parents to feel so bound and tied by school's
requirements (sometimes the requirements they imagine, more than what
really is required) that the parents can't unschool enough for
unschooling to fly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don't think doing a math text is curriculum itself -- curriculum
actually means I think the course of one's life. Heidi sees the text
as a means to her end, maybe it comes from schooling and that's why
she perceives it that way. -=-
Curriculum is a course of study. A math text is part of a math
curriculum. It's laid out in curriculum order, designed to be the
text book for a math course ("course" as in a race track or dog-
training routine).
-=-But, I wonder, say if there are three children in the family, what
happens when one of them expresses a strong interest and develops
something that the other children are drawn into. Is this then
authentic learning for the other kids? -=-
There is no "authentic learning." There is learning. If they're
"drawn in," it's because they're interested, and then they'll be
learning.
-= If so what makes it more valid than a parent doing something that
attracts the interest of those two? And I'm not trying to be
obnoxious, these are questions I've wrestled with in attempting to
develop an enriched environment for my own children.-=-
If parents do something that attracts a child's interest, what's wrong
with that? If the thing the parent is doing to atrract a child's
interest involves a math textbook, that's unlikely to be a good
unschooling move.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
There are other good definitions of unschooling here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition
What I mean by "good definitions" is definitions in the course of
discussions such as these, by people who really are unschoolers, as
opposed to definitions written by someone who doesn't really get it,
or who thinks it's a bad idea and so defines it in such a way as to
make a curriculum seem necessary.
Sandra
actually means I think the course of one's life. Heidi sees the text
as a means to her end, maybe it comes from schooling and that's why
she perceives it that way. -=-
Curriculum is a course of study. A math text is part of a math
curriculum. It's laid out in curriculum order, designed to be the
text book for a math course ("course" as in a race track or dog-
training routine).
-=-But, I wonder, say if there are three children in the family, what
happens when one of them expresses a strong interest and develops
something that the other children are drawn into. Is this then
authentic learning for the other kids? -=-
There is no "authentic learning." There is learning. If they're
"drawn in," it's because they're interested, and then they'll be
learning.
-= If so what makes it more valid than a parent doing something that
attracts the interest of those two? And I'm not trying to be
obnoxious, these are questions I've wrestled with in attempting to
develop an enriched environment for my own children.-=-
If parents do something that attracts a child's interest, what's wrong
with that? If the thing the parent is doing to atrract a child's
interest involves a math textbook, that's unlikely to be a good
unschooling move.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
There are other good definitions of unschooling here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition
What I mean by "good definitions" is definitions in the course of
discussions such as these, by people who really are unschoolers, as
opposed to definitions written by someone who doesn't really get it,
or who thinks it's a bad idea and so defines it in such a way as to
make a curriculum seem necessary.
Sandra
d.lewis
***I might take her to UD textile and design
classes to see a little of what goes on at a college level -***
She's eleven. She doesn't need to see what goes on in a college level
design class to have fun designing clothes at home today. A college level
class could make her aware of what she doesn't have and make it seem
impossible to design clothes at home. You risk discouraging her if you
make designing seem too complicated.
It would be better to take her to shops to look at clothes, to vintage
clothing stores to let her try on, to stores and markets and second hand
shops to hunt for fabric and dig around for patterns. It would be better
to help her start designing and sewing. And by "help" I don't mean get her
to a class. I mean get her a machine and some fabric and help her make
stuff.
When my kid got interested in modular synthesizers I didn't take him to an
electronics class or to a digital music school. I got him a modular
synthesizer. He has three synthesizers now, understands a lot about digital
music and electronics, repaired an old vacuum tube organ he found and (most
importantly) plays music every day because he loves it. By playing and
messing around with synthesizers he's probably learned more than he ever
would have in a class. All that's very cool but best of all he's had years
of playing, years of doing what he loves. There was no time wasted. He got
straight to the good stuff.
Deb Lewis
classes to see a little of what goes on at a college level -***
She's eleven. She doesn't need to see what goes on in a college level
design class to have fun designing clothes at home today. A college level
class could make her aware of what she doesn't have and make it seem
impossible to design clothes at home. You risk discouraging her if you
make designing seem too complicated.
It would be better to take her to shops to look at clothes, to vintage
clothing stores to let her try on, to stores and markets and second hand
shops to hunt for fabric and dig around for patterns. It would be better
to help her start designing and sewing. And by "help" I don't mean get her
to a class. I mean get her a machine and some fabric and help her make
stuff.
When my kid got interested in modular synthesizers I didn't take him to an
electronics class or to a digital music school. I got him a modular
synthesizer. He has three synthesizers now, understands a lot about digital
music and electronics, repaired an old vacuum tube organ he found and (most
importantly) plays music every day because he loves it. By playing and
messing around with synthesizers he's probably learned more than he ever
would have in a class. All that's very cool but best of all he's had years
of playing, years of doing what he loves. There was no time wasted. He got
straight to the good stuff.
Deb Lewis