Nagging concern
suzette
Never asked a question or voiced a concern on this list but here goes.
I have 4 kids ages 13,11,8 & 3. I've been unschooling since the older three were 9,7 & 5. Maybe earlier than that really but I found a name for what we did when they were around those ages. Anyway, for the most part we just live our lives and really enjoy each others company. My oldest, in fact, was just having a conversation with her brothers about the three of them renting a house together when they move out. They like being with each other.
Okay here is my concern. My boys ages 11 & 8 have no desire to do any formal math curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that when they find a need for formal math (even if that's not until they are 16) they will be able to learn it more quickly at that time than if I tried to teach it to them now. Is this naive? I just have moments of panic every now and then. Sometimes we just love our lives so much it almost seems like I'm not doing something right. Like there should be more struggle. I mean my kids are hardly ever in trouble, they don't get things taken away from them, we generally don't argue etc. It's not perfect by any means and we have our moments but the overall feel of our home is relaxed fun.
Again, I sometimes feel that we are having too much fun and that I am robbing them of stronger academics.
I welcome any feedback especially from moms with grown kids. That always gives me some sense of reassurance.
Thanks for your time,
Suzette Dufresne
Peoria, AZ
I have 4 kids ages 13,11,8 & 3. I've been unschooling since the older three were 9,7 & 5. Maybe earlier than that really but I found a name for what we did when they were around those ages. Anyway, for the most part we just live our lives and really enjoy each others company. My oldest, in fact, was just having a conversation with her brothers about the three of them renting a house together when they move out. They like being with each other.
Okay here is my concern. My boys ages 11 & 8 have no desire to do any formal math curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that when they find a need for formal math (even if that's not until they are 16) they will be able to learn it more quickly at that time than if I tried to teach it to them now. Is this naive? I just have moments of panic every now and then. Sometimes we just love our lives so much it almost seems like I'm not doing something right. Like there should be more struggle. I mean my kids are hardly ever in trouble, they don't get things taken away from them, we generally don't argue etc. It's not perfect by any means and we have our moments but the overall feel of our home is relaxed fun.
Again, I sometimes feel that we are having too much fun and that I am robbing them of stronger academics.
I welcome any feedback especially from moms with grown kids. That always gives me some sense of reassurance.
Thanks for your time,
Suzette Dufresne
Peoria, AZ
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 12, 2010, at 2:37 AM, suzette wrote:
It's essential for unschooling for people to grasp how kids absorb
and puzzle out how the world works by doing, living, and using. For
instance, kids don't need reading programs. They need pleasant
experiences with the written word, someone who will answer their
questions, a personally meaningful need to get something by reading
and they will get reading when they're developmentally ready.
The one thing that concerns me is that so many people have been
damaged by school math that they're happy to be free of math. Kids
will have a harder time getting pleasant experiences with math if
their parents are gleefully avoiding numbers because there's no one
to make them do calculations anymore. ;-)
There will be quite a bit of math in their lives if kids have an
allowance and play video games. :-) But it will be helpful to have
measuring tools as handy as crayons: rulers, tape measures, stop
watch, nested measuring cups (they make great bath toys :-). Even
better will be parents who don't avoid measuring and counting and
comparing because of bad flashbacks from school. Numbers should be as
natural a part of life as words.
(And measuring needn't be done with a ruler. It can be done with a
string or the thing itself. Probably for kids who build things with
Legos, it's natural to measure in bricks.)
It will be good to have board and card games (and parents who enjoy
playing them). Sports. Collections to sort in various ways. (It can
be rocks picked up on walks, plastic dinosaurs, model cars, leaves,
pencils, Beanies, Pokemon ...) Maps. Google Maps (which will
incorporate mileage.) Spreadsheets for recording collections. (I
helped Kathryn set up several databases for Pokemon so she could keep
track of various things.) Figuring out how long until some event.
Here's a good page about math:
A few words about unschooling math by Luz Shoshie
http://sandradodd.com/math/luz
It's *not* meant as a curriculum! It's meant as a way to notice how
math is all around us. You may not know half the things and that's
okay. Some of these things (or things like them such as a variety of
games) should be part of your life. Some of the words it will help to
think about how they're part of life that you may not have thought of
as math (like yardage is in football, sewing and gardening.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Okay here is my concern. My boys ages 11 & 8 have no desire to doI would say you're not naive if there's a need for math in their lives.
> any formal math curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that
> when they find a need for formal math (even if that's not until
> they are 16) they will be able to learn it more quickly at that
> time than if I tried to teach it to them now. Is this naive?
It's essential for unschooling for people to grasp how kids absorb
and puzzle out how the world works by doing, living, and using. For
instance, kids don't need reading programs. They need pleasant
experiences with the written word, someone who will answer their
questions, a personally meaningful need to get something by reading
and they will get reading when they're developmentally ready.
The one thing that concerns me is that so many people have been
damaged by school math that they're happy to be free of math. Kids
will have a harder time getting pleasant experiences with math if
their parents are gleefully avoiding numbers because there's no one
to make them do calculations anymore. ;-)
There will be quite a bit of math in their lives if kids have an
allowance and play video games. :-) But it will be helpful to have
measuring tools as handy as crayons: rulers, tape measures, stop
watch, nested measuring cups (they make great bath toys :-). Even
better will be parents who don't avoid measuring and counting and
comparing because of bad flashbacks from school. Numbers should be as
natural a part of life as words.
(And measuring needn't be done with a ruler. It can be done with a
string or the thing itself. Probably for kids who build things with
Legos, it's natural to measure in bricks.)
It will be good to have board and card games (and parents who enjoy
playing them). Sports. Collections to sort in various ways. (It can
be rocks picked up on walks, plastic dinosaurs, model cars, leaves,
pencils, Beanies, Pokemon ...) Maps. Google Maps (which will
incorporate mileage.) Spreadsheets for recording collections. (I
helped Kathryn set up several databases for Pokemon so she could keep
track of various things.) Figuring out how long until some event.
Here's a good page about math:
A few words about unschooling math by Luz Shoshie
http://sandradodd.com/math/luz
It's *not* meant as a curriculum! It's meant as a way to notice how
math is all around us. You may not know half the things and that's
okay. Some of these things (or things like them such as a variety of
games) should be part of your life. Some of the words it will help to
think about how they're part of life that you may not have thought of
as math (like yardage is in football, sewing and gardening.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My boys ages 11 & 8 have no desire to do any formal math
curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that when they find a need
for formal math (even if that's not until they are 16) they will be
able to learn it more quickly at that time than if I tried to teach it
to them now. Is this naive? I just have moments of panic every now and
then. Sometimes we just love our lives so much it almost seems like
I'm not doing something right. Like there should be more struggle. -=-
I hope that doesn't mean you're doing formal teaching about other
things.
It's not naive to think that they can learn without being taught.
It's called "unschooling." <g>
The guilt about having fun is normal, too.
I think you should read about the value of play and joy so you can
free up the time and energy you're using now with worry and fear.
http://sandradodd.com/playing
http://sandradodd.com/joy
and about math, if you still feel you need it after you've read those
other two.
http://sandradodd.com/math
Sandra
curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that when they find a need
for formal math (even if that's not until they are 16) they will be
able to learn it more quickly at that time than if I tried to teach it
to them now. Is this naive? I just have moments of panic every now and
then. Sometimes we just love our lives so much it almost seems like
I'm not doing something right. Like there should be more struggle. -=-
I hope that doesn't mean you're doing formal teaching about other
things.
It's not naive to think that they can learn without being taught.
It's called "unschooling." <g>
The guilt about having fun is normal, too.
I think you should read about the value of play and joy so you can
free up the time and energy you're using now with worry and fear.
http://sandradodd.com/playing
http://sandradodd.com/joy
and about math, if you still feel you need it after you've read those
other two.
http://sandradodd.com/math
Sandra
k
I think it's a lot easier for unschooling parents who stay at home to have
the opportunity to notice a lot of learning that's taking place that's not
right on the surface where anyone walking by could see it. Parents who work
away from home usually want more obvious signs and so do others who don't
live with the children in their day to day lives. It's easy to wonder how
your lives must look to others and to want reassurance.
So for me, how that translates is to pay closer attention, and since some of
us (me) don't naturally do that, it means at least doing for a short while.
Taking note of how Karl is learning something about telling time from not
only the clocks around the house but also the watch he wanted me to get to
replace the one that broke because it was cheap and not well made even if it
was cute. It's digital and easier to figure time concepts from than having
to figure out the whole analog deal. On a meta level it means me getting
friendlier with numbers now that I'm *not* in school, like Joyce says. I've
tried to be (because it's expected of school kids) as analytical and
abstract as I can in the past. Now I realize the value of appreciating my
own ways of learning about the world ... which is very tactile and visual,
and I have found ways to play with the concepts that numbers are visually
and yes.. legos is a great way to do that for Karl. He actually calls the
piece he's looking for by the number of interlocking bumps he sees, and
we'll look for another one in the color he wants.
I purposely picked small things to notice. Karl doesn't often mention what
he notices about time or ask questions but he does sometimes. He doesn't
play with legos all day long usually. But when he does play with numbers I
know he is getting a lot out of it.
~Katherine
the opportunity to notice a lot of learning that's taking place that's not
right on the surface where anyone walking by could see it. Parents who work
away from home usually want more obvious signs and so do others who don't
live with the children in their day to day lives. It's easy to wonder how
your lives must look to others and to want reassurance.
So for me, how that translates is to pay closer attention, and since some of
us (me) don't naturally do that, it means at least doing for a short while.
Taking note of how Karl is learning something about telling time from not
only the clocks around the house but also the watch he wanted me to get to
replace the one that broke because it was cheap and not well made even if it
was cute. It's digital and easier to figure time concepts from than having
to figure out the whole analog deal. On a meta level it means me getting
friendlier with numbers now that I'm *not* in school, like Joyce says. I've
tried to be (because it's expected of school kids) as analytical and
abstract as I can in the past. Now I realize the value of appreciating my
own ways of learning about the world ... which is very tactile and visual,
and I have found ways to play with the concepts that numbers are visually
and yes.. legos is a great way to do that for Karl. He actually calls the
piece he's looking for by the number of interlocking bumps he sees, and
we'll look for another one in the color he wants.
I purposely picked small things to notice. Karl doesn't often mention what
he notices about time or ask questions but he does sometimes. He doesn't
play with legos all day long usually. But when he does play with numbers I
know he is getting a lot out of it.
~Katherine
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:37 AM, suzette <bizeeemom@...> wrote:
> Never asked a question or voiced a concern on this list but here goes.
>
> I have 4 kids ages 13,11,8 & 3. I've been unschooling since the older three
> were 9,7 & 5. Maybe earlier than that really but I found a name for what we
> did when they were around those ages. Anyway, for the most part we just live
> our lives and really enjoy each others company. My oldest, in fact, was just
> having a conversation with her brothers about the three of them renting a
> house together when they move out. They like being with each other.
>
> Okay here is my concern. My boys ages 11 & 8 have no desire to do any
> formal math curriculum. I am thinking this is okay and that when they find a
> need for formal math (even if that's not until they are 16) they will be
> able to learn it more quickly at that time than if I tried to teach it to
> them now. Is this naive? I just have moments of panic every now and then.
> Sometimes we just love our lives so much it almost seems like I'm not doing
> something right. Like there should be more struggle. I mean my kids are
> hardly ever in trouble, they don't get things taken away from them, we
> generally don't argue etc. It's not perfect by any means and we have our
> moments but the overall feel of our home is relaxed fun.
>
> Again, I sometimes feel that we are having too much fun and that I am
> robbing them of stronger academics.
>
> I welcome any feedback especially from moms with grown kids. That always
> gives me some sense of reassurance.
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Suzette Dufresne
> Peoria, AZ
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
>My youngest daughter, who is now 19 years old, just said the other day that she thought she might get a college minor in math or maybe even double major in math (and Deaf Studies - interpreting, which is what she's most focused on).
>Again, I sometimes feel that we are having too much fun and that I am robbing them of stronger academics.
>
>I welcome any feedback especially from moms with grown kids. That always gives me some sense of reassurance.
>
She did NO formal math until she was a college student. Absolutely none.
She did play LOTS of games - really a lot of playing of all kinds of games, including a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and a lot of Magic, the Gathering, and a lot of Munchkin and lots and lots of board games, card games, word games, etc.
When she was 17 years old she took a basic math class at the community college. I started with arithmetic - adding,subtracting, multiplying, dividing, fractions, decimals, percentages. Then she took the next level - more arithmetic and some basic geometry like finding perimeters and areas and volumes and a little work with angles. Then she took the next level, pre-algebra (which is really more arithmetic, but includes a lot of work with exponents, including fractional exponents, and some trigonometry. Then college-level algebra. Now she's taking calculus and loves it - really looks forward to it.
Because I have a lot of math background, myself, it has always been easy for me to see that she had a knack for mathematical thinking and for me to see her developing it IN the games she played and the way she approached all kinds of things - from pretend play when she was little, to fashion when she was a teenager.
She may not pursue formal math any farther, or maybe she will. She has a lot of other interests, too.
Her 22 year old sister also had no formal math until college. She also took a series of math classes in college, starting from basic arithmetic. She didn't find them difficult at ALL. She liked them somewhat - didn't revel in enjoyment of them or anything, but didn't detest them the way most of the other students seemed to do. She got good grades and understood the material and was very comfortable with the classes. The last class she took was a statistics and probability class from a truly ridiculously horrible teacher, and she didn't enjoy it at all, but got herself through it because it fulfilled her last math requirement for graduation. I doubt she'll take any more formal math classes, she's majoring in Drama and History. But she wouldn't be afraid to do so, if there was a reason.
My 25 year old daughter took the same route as the other two - same experience with college math. She graduated with a degree in Recreation and Leisure Studies and has a great job as coordinator of a program for adults with developmental disabilities. She went to school through 4th grade, so I can't say she never had any math lessons, because she did have in school. But I cannot see that she experienced formal or higher-level math in any way differently than the other two. Luckily, she'd been in a kind of experimental school and never had a math test - their math had been taught in a very gentle way, mostly through (assigned) games. So she came out of it undamaged and without any residual math anxiety.Things were different in education in those days of "whole language," "integrated curriculum," "authentic assessment," and no textbooks or tests or grades. It was before the standardized testing craze started.
So - yes, I can assure you that it is certainly possible for kids to do no formal math, to play all the time, to have a good and fun life, and still, if they choose to do so, go on and study formal math successfully.
The one thing that all three of my kids have commented on about their college math classes has been that the other students would do better if they'd try to understand why things work the way they do instead of being focused on memorizing how to do things. They have complained about and resented it whenever they had teachers who wouldn't explain concepts and just expected them to memorize how to perform some kind of manipulation of numbers without fully understanding what they were doing.
-pam
lalow66
my kids are not grown so i cant speak from that perspective, but they have had no formal math. my oldest just turned 8 afew months ago and today and we were driving home from a lego club meeting. his friend told him a story of how they went to a movie and for the 4 of them it cost $46. my son shrugged and said, "well that's not too bad, about $10 a person".
through situations like that he has shown me a very good beginning grasp of fractions, telling time, counting money, arithmatic, etc... all without any formal math class.
through situations like that he has shown me a very good beginning grasp of fractions, telling time, counting money, arithmatic, etc... all without any formal math class.
suzette
Thank you so much Pam. I am pretty sure I'm on the right track most of the time. I've got to just trust myself and more importantly, trust my kids. We play a lot of games and I know they learn a lot through that. I guess I've started panicking lately because my oldest is 13 and people have begun mentioning SAT's and ACT's.
Thanks again,
Suzette
Thanks again,
Suzette
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Again, I sometimes feel that we are having too much fun and that I am robbing them of stronger academics.
> >
> >I welcome any feedback especially from moms with grown kids. That always gives me some sense of reassurance.
> >
>
> My youngest daughter, who is now 19 years old, just said the other day that she thought she might get a college minor in math or maybe even double major in math (and Deaf Studies - interpreting, which is what she's most focused on).
>
> She did NO formal math until she was a college student. Absolutely none.
>
> She did play LOTS of games - really a lot of playing of all kinds of games, including a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and a lot of Magic, the Gathering, and a lot of Munchkin and lots and lots of board games, card games, word games, etc.
>
> When she was 17 years old she took a basic math class at the community college. I started with arithmetic - adding,subtracting, multiplying, dividing, fractions, decimals, percentages. Then she took the next level - more arithmetic and some basic geometry like finding perimeters and areas and volumes and a little work with angles. Then she took the next level, pre-algebra (which is really more arithmetic, but includes a lot of work with exponents, including fractional exponents, and some trigonometry. Then college-level algebra. Now she's taking calculus and loves it - really looks forward to it.
>
> Because I have a lot of math background, myself, it has always been easy for me to see that she had a knack for mathematical thinking and for me to see her developing it IN the games she played and the way she approached all kinds of things - from pretend play when she was little, to fashion when she was a teenager.
>
> She may not pursue formal math any farther, or maybe she will. She has a lot of other interests, too.
>
> Her 22 year old sister also had no formal math until college. She also took a series of math classes in college, starting from basic arithmetic. She didn't find them difficult at ALL. She liked them somewhat - didn't revel in enjoyment of them or anything, but didn't detest them the way most of the other students seemed to do. She got good grades and understood the material and was very comfortable with the classes. The last class she took was a statistics and probability class from a truly ridiculously horrible teacher, and she didn't enjoy it at all, but got herself through it because it fulfilled her last math requirement for graduation. I doubt she'll take any more formal math classes, she's majoring in Drama and History. But she wouldn't be afraid to do so, if there was a reason.
>
> My 25 year old daughter took the same route as the other two - same experience with college math. She graduated with a degree in Recreation and Leisure Studies and has a great job as coordinator of a program for adults with developmental disabilities. She went to school through 4th grade, so I can't say she never had any math lessons, because she did have in school. But I cannot see that she experienced formal or higher-level math in any way differently than the other two. Luckily, she'd been in a kind of experimental school and never had a math test - their math had been taught in a very gentle way, mostly through (assigned) games. So she came out of it undamaged and without any residual math anxiety.Things were different in education in those days of "whole language," "integrated curriculum," "authentic assessment," and no textbooks or tests or grades. It was before the standardized testing craze started.
>
> So - yes, I can assure you that it is certainly possible for kids to do no formal math, to play all the time, to have a good and fun life, and still, if they choose to do so, go on and study formal math successfully.
>
> The one thing that all three of my kids have commented on about their college math classes has been that the other students would do better if they'd try to understand why things work the way they do instead of being focused on memorizing how to do things. They have complained about and resented it whenever they had teachers who wouldn't explain concepts and just expected them to memorize how to perform some kind of manipulation of numbers without fully understanding what they were doing.
>
> -pam
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thank you so much Pam. I am pretty sure I'm on the right track most
of the time. I've got to just trust myself and more importantly, trust
my kids-=-
It will help if you know if you keep your direction in mind and make
choices that move toward that rather than away from it. That sounds
too obvious to state, maybe, but it's common for people to wander this
way and that, thinking close is close enough, but every single day,
children are older, and the sooner it's good, the better everything is.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of the time. I've got to just trust myself and more importantly, trust
my kids-=-
It will help if you know if you keep your direction in mind and make
choices that move toward that rather than away from it. That sounds
too obvious to state, maybe, but it's common for people to wander this
way and that, thinking close is close enough, but every single day,
children are older, and the sooner it's good, the better everything is.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elwazani
--- In [email protected], "suzette" <bizeeemom@...> wrote:
. I guess I've started panicking lately because my oldest is 13 and people have begun mentioning SAT's and ACT's.
>
> Thanks again,
> Suzette
My daughter is 16 and has attended our local high school for choir and art the last three years, as well as taken several classes at the university...last year (sophmore) the students took the PLAN test, a practice ACT...she decided to take it for the experience, and did very well...not surprised that math was a little low,... but she has been receiving all sorts of literature from schools because of her scores...that was with out any studying or preparing at all.
Ana Maria Bruce
All my boys 16, 18 and 20 learned most of their math when they got jobs. I really wanted to be a good math teacher. Oh well.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-All my boys 16, 18 and 20 learned most of their math when they got
jobs. I really wanted to be a good math teacher. Oh well.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Wishing you'd been a good math teacher isn't a step toward successful
unschooling, though. I can't tell if you were joking, but as others
won't know either, accepting that things can and should be learned
when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
to cause it to make sense is what unschooling's all about. Move the
other direction from "oh wells" and concerns!
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jobs. I really wanted to be a good math teacher. Oh well.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Wishing you'd been a good math teacher isn't a step toward successful
unschooling, though. I can't tell if you were joking, but as others
won't know either, accepting that things can and should be learned
when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
to cause it to make sense is what unschooling's all about. Move the
other direction from "oh wells" and concerns!
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
A big way that I've moved away from feeling inept about unschooling and
gained a ton of confidence in the learning process itself is to figure out
more on the subjects I didn't do well on in school now that I'm more
interested and have a reason to, and *also* now that my brain is more
developed to be able to accept the information in useful ways. Being a more
creatively inclined sort, math felt boring and stilted. I used to avoid it.
So of course it didn't take as well as it might have (oh well ... now to
change that thought pattern).
Karl is 6, has always been very vocal (which was helpful to me for sure) and
has been inclined to play with numbers since he was just a little guy,
barely 3 years old. He has only increased in his interest in this area as
time goes by. I don't want to be behind the eight ball trying to explain
what I don't understand, so I took it upon myself to learn more about how
basic number concepts work in case Karl asks me more of those kinds of
questions. (I'm sure he will.) He doesn't want to memorize number facts. He
wants to know how they work and that's a very different kind of info. I
joined a great yahoo group where there was some good discussion. I thought
the owner of the group was very helpful. The group looks really kind of
inactive now but there's a lot of good stuff in the archives and if the
owner is still around I'm sure questions would be welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MathingOff/?yguid=265299176
~Katherine
gained a ton of confidence in the learning process itself is to figure out
more on the subjects I didn't do well on in school now that I'm more
interested and have a reason to, and *also* now that my brain is more
developed to be able to accept the information in useful ways. Being a more
creatively inclined sort, math felt boring and stilted. I used to avoid it.
So of course it didn't take as well as it might have (oh well ... now to
change that thought pattern).
Karl is 6, has always been very vocal (which was helpful to me for sure) and
has been inclined to play with numbers since he was just a little guy,
barely 3 years old. He has only increased in his interest in this area as
time goes by. I don't want to be behind the eight ball trying to explain
what I don't understand, so I took it upon myself to learn more about how
basic number concepts work in case Karl asks me more of those kinds of
questions. (I'm sure he will.) He doesn't want to memorize number facts. He
wants to know how they work and that's a very different kind of info. I
joined a great yahoo group where there was some good discussion. I thought
the owner of the group was very helpful. The group looks really kind of
inactive now but there's a lot of good stuff in the archives and if the
owner is still around I'm sure questions would be welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MathingOff/?yguid=265299176
~Katherine
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-All my boys 16, 18 and 20 learned most of their math when they got
> jobs. I really wanted to be a good math teacher. Oh well.-=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Wishing you'd been a good math teacher isn't a step toward successful
> unschooling, though. I can't tell if you were joking, but as others
> won't know either, accepting that things can and should be learned
> when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
> to cause it to make sense is what unschooling's all about. Move the
> other direction from "oh wells" and concerns!
>
> http://sandradodd.com/doit
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Karl is 6, has always been very vocal (which was helpful to me for
sure) and
has been inclined to play with numbers since he was just a little guy,
barely 3 years old.-=-
Don't think of it as just "numbers," though (my kids did that too, so
I'm no knocking playing with numbers). Maybe get a geoboard and some
rubber bands and don't talk about numbers. Look for mathematical and
pattern and comparisons and ratio things that don't involve "numbers"
at all, because that's something school can tend to ignore completely
and many parents think all math involves numbers themselves--numerals.
Instead of going away from unschooling to a math source, maybe look at
the stuff by Linda Wyatt and Pam Sorooshian and others who are
unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/math
Even while learning more about math, unschooling parents can be
learning more about unschooling and the interconnectedness of things.
Sandra
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sure) and
has been inclined to play with numbers since he was just a little guy,
barely 3 years old.-=-
Don't think of it as just "numbers," though (my kids did that too, so
I'm no knocking playing with numbers). Maybe get a geoboard and some
rubber bands and don't talk about numbers. Look for mathematical and
pattern and comparisons and ratio things that don't involve "numbers"
at all, because that's something school can tend to ignore completely
and many parents think all math involves numbers themselves--numerals.
Instead of going away from unschooling to a math source, maybe look at
the stuff by Linda Wyatt and Pam Sorooshian and others who are
unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/math
Even while learning more about math, unschooling parents can be
learning more about unschooling and the interconnectedness of things.
Sandra
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Ana Maria Bruce
-=-All my boys 16, 18 and 20 learned most of their math when they got
jobs. I really wanted to be a good math teacher. Oh well.-=-
Sorry about that... I meant....I had to let go of the "ideal" that I was going to be a good math teacher and learned instead to trust at the right time, they would learn what they needed in that department.
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Jenny Cyphers
***Don't think of it as just "numbers," though (my kids did that too, so
I'm no knocking playing with numbers). ***
To me, numbers have to do with patterns. Margaux is really into patterns of all kinds, so numbers come into it a lot. Chamille on the other hand has never seen things in that way. Last night, though, she figured out how to make a glove 3-D, and then sewed it together. It's spacial awareness, not number related, but I feel, very mathematical!
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I'm no knocking playing with numbers). ***
To me, numbers have to do with patterns. Margaux is really into patterns of all kinds, so numbers come into it a lot. Chamille on the other hand has never seen things in that way. Last night, though, she figured out how to make a glove 3-D, and then sewed it together. It's spacial awareness, not number related, but I feel, very mathematical!
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Pam Sorooshian
<< It's spacial awareness, not number related, but I feel, very
mathematical!
books. When she was little and liked that, I thought it was too bad that she
wasn't more into being creative - I thought drawing her own pictures was
"superior" to coloring in coloring books. Looking back, I realize that she
was playing around with the lines in the coloring book - using color to
create shapes from the lines. It was very mathematical for her - still is -
she's 19 and sometimes buys herself a Dover coloring book and still loves
her prismacolor colored pencils. She has got an awareness of line and shape
and space that is serving her well in a college calculus class.
Kids really and truly do not need to be doing things that look like math to
us school-damaged parents. We are damaged, imo, when we can't see the value
in what our kids are choosing to do because it doesn't appear to us to be
contributing to learning something recognizable to us.
So - now - some people reading this will probably go buy their kids coloring
books in hopes that will turn them into good math students someday in the
future, right? <G> But, notice it didn't matter at ALL whether I recognized
what Rosie was doing as building "math skills." All that mattered was I
supplied her with what she enjoyed. I was always on the lookout for cool
coloring books. And she went through phases with them - some were simple,
but as she got older she liked the more sophisticated ones - historical ones
and fashion through the ages, etc. She also did some of the Bellerophon
coloring books, but never liked them as much as the Dovers, even though they
appear more complex, I think because the lines are less defined, they are
more sketchy and have more open-ended space in them. For a while she did the
coloring books that were just patterns - the geometrical ones - but usually
she liked the Dover ones with people or the really beautiful nature ones -
Roses, Butterflies, etc. She colored in all the pictures in the same
coloring books multiple times - I bought duplicates of the ones she liked
the most, multiple times.
-pam
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mathematical!
>>Rosie was like that - very spatially aware. She likes to color in coloring
books. When she was little and liked that, I thought it was too bad that she
wasn't more into being creative - I thought drawing her own pictures was
"superior" to coloring in coloring books. Looking back, I realize that she
was playing around with the lines in the coloring book - using color to
create shapes from the lines. It was very mathematical for her - still is -
she's 19 and sometimes buys herself a Dover coloring book and still loves
her prismacolor colored pencils. She has got an awareness of line and shape
and space that is serving her well in a college calculus class.
Kids really and truly do not need to be doing things that look like math to
us school-damaged parents. We are damaged, imo, when we can't see the value
in what our kids are choosing to do because it doesn't appear to us to be
contributing to learning something recognizable to us.
So - now - some people reading this will probably go buy their kids coloring
books in hopes that will turn them into good math students someday in the
future, right? <G> But, notice it didn't matter at ALL whether I recognized
what Rosie was doing as building "math skills." All that mattered was I
supplied her with what she enjoyed. I was always on the lookout for cool
coloring books. And she went through phases with them - some were simple,
but as she got older she liked the more sophisticated ones - historical ones
and fashion through the ages, etc. She also did some of the Bellerophon
coloring books, but never liked them as much as the Dovers, even though they
appear more complex, I think because the lines are less defined, they are
more sketchy and have more open-ended space in them. For a while she did the
coloring books that were just patterns - the geometrical ones - but usually
she liked the Dover ones with people or the really beautiful nature ones -
Roses, Butterflies, etc. She colored in all the pictures in the same
coloring books multiple times - I bought duplicates of the ones she liked
the most, multiple times.
-pam
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Sandra Dodd
-=-For a while she did the
coloring books that were just patterns - the geometrical ones - but
usually
she liked the Dover ones with people or the really beautiful nature
ones -
Roses, Butterflies, etc. She colored in all the pictures in the same
coloring books multiple times - I bought duplicates of the ones she
liked
the most, multiple times. -=-
Most of the Dover books are marked "Pictorial Archive Series" in the
front, and when they are you can not only photocopy them all you want,
you could use them for other kinds of projects. You're paying for art
rights, pretty much, with those.
Sandra
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coloring books that were just patterns - the geometrical ones - but
usually
she liked the Dover ones with people or the really beautiful nature
ones -
Roses, Butterflies, etc. She colored in all the pictures in the same
coloring books multiple times - I bought duplicates of the ones she
liked
the most, multiple times. -=-
Most of the Dover books are marked "Pictorial Archive Series" in the
front, and when they are you can not only photocopy them all you want,
you could use them for other kinds of projects. You're paying for art
rights, pretty much, with those.
Sandra
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[email protected]
<accepting that things can and should be learned
<when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
<to cause it to make sense is what unschooling'to cause it>
The alternative (certainly in England) looks like a lot of wasted time:-
_http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episo
de-1_
(http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episode-1)
The film-makers discovered that 10 and 11 year-olds are frequently being
"taught to the test" by adults who themselves don't have a sufficient grasp
of the concepts themselves. Many of the teachers inflicting this version
of maths failed to achieve 50% on an equivalent test aimed at 11-year-olds.
Several teachers spoke of how they themselves hated maths at school and
didn't see the irony that they're now doling out the same old same old
because it's a subject that they believe just "has to be covered". Very sad to
see all these children wasting 3 months at a time on pointless drilling of
formulae that they didn't understand (even sadder, I let Jess sit those
tests :-(( ). Teaching didn't help the teachers, so I can't imagine how it
could help the next generation of kids.
Jude x
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<when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
<to cause it to make sense is what unschooling'to cause it>
The alternative (certainly in England) looks like a lot of wasted time:-
_http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episo
de-1_
(http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episode-1)
The film-makers discovered that 10 and 11 year-olds are frequently being
"taught to the test" by adults who themselves don't have a sufficient grasp
of the concepts themselves. Many of the teachers inflicting this version
of maths failed to achieve 50% on an equivalent test aimed at 11-year-olds.
Several teachers spoke of how they themselves hated maths at school and
didn't see the irony that they're now doling out the same old same old
because it's a subject that they believe just "has to be covered". Very sad to
see all these children wasting 3 months at a time on pointless drilling of
formulae that they didn't understand (even sadder, I let Jess sit those
tests :-(( ). Teaching didn't help the teachers, so I can't imagine how it
could help the next generation of kids.
Jude x
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k
I had a visitor on my Facebook page who is some kind of (year's and
year's worth of) testing professional. She thinks testing is no biggie
and that, after a couple of days, the teachers themselves forget the
numbers and move on, and then points out that the kids don't see their
testing stats (what a mercy, eh?). Her job is to nuance individual
children's curriculum.
I'm curious but doubt I'll ask: if the teachers forget the numbers,
maybe they forget the curriculum changes this lady is providing and
then move on? It seems to me that the whole testing thing is about
going through the motions. Pretty meaningless stuff.
The status this lady responded to is a Holt quote, so I simply pointed
out that the quote is from an unschooling perspective (and moved on
;).
year's worth of) testing professional. She thinks testing is no biggie
and that, after a couple of days, the teachers themselves forget the
numbers and move on, and then points out that the kids don't see their
testing stats (what a mercy, eh?). Her job is to nuance individual
children's curriculum.
I'm curious but doubt I'll ask: if the teachers forget the numbers,
maybe they forget the curriculum changes this lady is providing and
then move on? It seems to me that the whole testing thing is about
going through the motions. Pretty meaningless stuff.
The status this lady responded to is a Holt quote, so I simply pointed
out that the quote is from an unschooling perspective (and moved on
;).
On 2/16/10, JudithAnneMurphy@... <JudithAnneMurphy@...> wrote:
>
> <accepting that things can and should be learned
> <when there's a real need or when something comes up that just happens
> <to cause it to make sense is what unschooling'to cause it>
>
> The alternative (certainly in England) looks like a lot of wasted time:-
>
>
> _http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episo
> de-1_
> (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episode-1)
>
> The film-makers discovered that 10 and 11 year-olds are frequently being
> "taught to the test" by adults who themselves don't have a sufficient grasp
> of the concepts themselves. Many of the teachers inflicting this version
> of maths failed to achieve 50% on an equivalent test aimed at 11-year-olds.
>
> Several teachers spoke of how they themselves hated maths at school and
> didn't see the irony that they're now doling out the same old same old
> because it's a subject that they believe just "has to be covered". Very
> sad to
> see all these children wasting 3 months at a time on pointless drilling of
> formulae that they didn't understand (even sadder, I let Jess sit those
> tests :-(( ). Teaching didn't help the teachers, so I can't imagine how
> it
> could help the next generation of kids.
>
>
> Jude x
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- She thinks testing is no biggie
and that, after a couple of days, the teachers themselves forget the
numbers and move on, and then points out that the kids don't see their
testing stats (what a mercy, eh?). Her job is to nuance individual
children's curriculum.-=-
So why do it?
Either it's worthless or it's used for something (like "nuancing" a
curriculum?!...)
There's money involved, and in a case in which the kids don't know
their scores, the school's averages can still affect their funding.
True, it has nothing to do with unschooling. Some kids, even if they
don't know the scores, will stress out and be unwell. There's rarely
any benefit to an individual child, and often much wear and tear (if
not downright harm).
http://sandradodd.com/testing
(Not much there, but a little.)
Sandra
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and that, after a couple of days, the teachers themselves forget the
numbers and move on, and then points out that the kids don't see their
testing stats (what a mercy, eh?). Her job is to nuance individual
children's curriculum.-=-
So why do it?
Either it's worthless or it's used for something (like "nuancing" a
curriculum?!...)
There's money involved, and in a case in which the kids don't know
their scores, the school's averages can still affect their funding.
True, it has nothing to do with unschooling. Some kids, even if they
don't know the scores, will stress out and be unwell. There's rarely
any benefit to an individual child, and often much wear and tear (if
not downright harm).
http://sandradodd.com/testing
(Not much there, but a little.)
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
In Minnesota we have to annually test every year after the child turns 7.
YOu don't have to turn any results in but you have to test.
There is no way around it unless you don;t register your child and go under the radar.
My son turned 7 last year so had to get him tested.
We did the Peabody test. Which is an oral test that seems much more unschooling friendly.
They sit together and talk about stuff , lots of open ended questions. They keep asking and talking about things until the child
gets a number of incorrect answers and then they move on to another "subject".
They test only reading, reading comprehension, spelling math and general information.
My son was completely fine with it.
I hope that does not change but we can always do something else like filling multiple questions without really testing.
He never even asked how he did. He has never been to school or tested before.
I don't quiz him in any way. HE has no bad feeling attached to it and no expectations.
I wish we did not have to test at all.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
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YOu don't have to turn any results in but you have to test.
There is no way around it unless you don;t register your child and go under the radar.
My son turned 7 last year so had to get him tested.
We did the Peabody test. Which is an oral test that seems much more unschooling friendly.
They sit together and talk about stuff , lots of open ended questions. They keep asking and talking about things until the child
gets a number of incorrect answers and then they move on to another "subject".
They test only reading, reading comprehension, spelling math and general information.
My son was completely fine with it.
I hope that does not change but we can always do something else like filling multiple questions without really testing.
He never even asked how he did. He has never been to school or tested before.
I don't quiz him in any way. HE has no bad feeling attached to it and no expectations.
I wish we did not have to test at all.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
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Sandra Dodd
-=-In Minnesota we have to annually test every year after the child
turns 7....
I wish we did not have to test at all.-=-
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that just wording it
slightly differently could help with the feeling of doom (for the
parents).
In Minnesota, the law currently requires annual testing.
The "have to" comes in the parents deciding to comply with that law.
I comply with most laws very carefully. Our yard is all legal. I put
the recycling out exactly to specs (beyond and better; I wash mine
<g>). Our cars are registered and insured, even my deceased brother-
in-law's old Chevy pickup we don't even use.
Choosing to follow a rule is still a choice. "Have to" is a fearful
burden.
Sandra
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turns 7....
I wish we did not have to test at all.-=-
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that just wording it
slightly differently could help with the feeling of doom (for the
parents).
In Minnesota, the law currently requires annual testing.
The "have to" comes in the parents deciding to comply with that law.
I comply with most laws very carefully. Our yard is all legal. I put
the recycling out exactly to specs (beyond and better; I wash mine
<g>). Our cars are registered and insured, even my deceased brother-
in-law's old Chevy pickup we don't even use.
Choosing to follow a rule is still a choice. "Have to" is a fearful
burden.
Sandra
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Julie van der Wekken
I live in Utah, a very liberal state in terms of homeschooling. The only thing your supposed to do is register your child (once they turn 7) every year stating that your homeschooling. No testing or turning in work.
I'm choosing to go under the radar in terms of registering. I guess it just irks me that I have to inform the state of what I'm doing with my own children. Unless they contact me (I'm guessing there's a slim chance), I'm not registering them.
Julie van der Wekken
I'm choosing to go under the radar in terms of registering. I guess it just irks me that I have to inform the state of what I'm doing with my own children. Unless they contact me (I'm guessing there's a slim chance), I'm not registering them.
Julie van der Wekken
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> In Minnesota we have to annually test every year after the child turns 7.
> YOu don't have to turn any results in but you have to test.
> There is no way around it unless you don;t register your child and go under the radar.
> My son turned 7 last year so had to get him tested.
> We did the Peabody test. Which is an oral test that seems much more unschooling friendly.
> They sit together and talk about stuff , lots of open ended questions. They keep asking and talking about things until the child
> gets a number of incorrect answers and then they move on to another "subject".
> They test only reading, reading comprehension, spelling math and general information.
> My son was completely fine with it.
> I hope that does not change but we can always do something else like filling multiple questions without really testing.
> He never even asked how he did. He has never been to school or tested before.
> I don't quiz him in any way. HE has no bad feeling attached to it and no expectations.
> I wish we did not have to test at all.
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that just wording it
slightly differently could help with the feeling of doom (for the
parents)."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Absolutely. You are right. I don't have a feeling of doom but I have learned here how
changing how we word things differently can make a big difference and how we feel about them.
I should have known better than to say " I have" to because as I said in that post I could
have always chose to not register or do something else!
I did chose to register and for my son to do the test.
No big deal.
I can see how saying "I have to" will not help one see the choices around them.
So I stand corrected: I chose to get my son tested. <G>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
_
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
slightly differently could help with the feeling of doom (for the
parents)."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Absolutely. You are right. I don't have a feeling of doom but I have learned here how
changing how we word things differently can make a big difference and how we feel about them.
I should have known better than to say " I have" to because as I said in that post I could
have always chose to not register or do something else!
I did chose to register and for my son to do the test.
No big deal.
I can see how saying "I have to" will not help one see the choices around them.
So I stand corrected: I chose to get my son tested. <G>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
_
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