melissamariemichael

I'm having some issues with my husband not being fully on board with how I feel about homeschooling/unschooling and was hoping for some resources/advice/information on talking to him about the subject.

My daughter Mary is turning 4 next week, and we've already got some notices in the mail about how she is now eligible for 4K programs and inviting us to open houses and the like. I've been talking about homeschooling/unschooling with my husband for some time now, but it seems it's all about to become very real.

My husband, I'm afraid, is second-guessing our decision to keep our daughter home from school. There have been several occasions during the past couple of weeks where she has wanted to do something (like watch a movie, or play on the computer) and he has told her that she should should do something to "use your brain" instead. I don't like this phrase at all. I mean, it's not like her brain shuts off when she's watching a movie or looking at the computer. I know for certain that she learns tons of stuff doing those things. I'm fairly certain that playing on the computer has been a huge part of how she learned to read. He has also made comments to me about how he thinks our daughter is "regressing," meaning that she used to be smarter and now she isn't. This blows my mind. I mean, we have a 3 year old that can READ for crying out loud. She's very bright, and interesting, and creative, and all sorts of great things. Even if she couldn't read, she's still awesome. I think that his feelings like this are fleeting (meaning he doesn't feel that way all the time) and stem from his own insecurities about not sending her to school the way everyone else is.

It especially bothers me that sometimes he says things like this when she is in earshot. The example I am thinking of happened earlier today when we were riding in the car. Mary was in the back seat counting out loud just for the fun of it, and she got to 29 and asked me what number comes next. I simply responded "Thirty," but then my husband said something along the lines of I shouldn't keep hand-holding with her and that she knows better than that and that maybe she needs to go to school because she's "regressing." Now I *know* that Mary can count past 30 because I've heard her do it lots of times. Mary knows she can count past 30, and my husband knows it too. So who cares if she asks what comes after 29 when we're riding in the car? It's not like everything is a test and we need to keep quizzing her. I distinctly remember being quizzed on counting out loud in kindergarten, and being so into it that I would draw out the nine and forget what set of tens I was on. For example, "twenty-eight, twenty-niiiiiiiiiiine, THIRTY!" Sometimes that "niiiiiiiine" would be so long I would forget if I was on the twenties or thirties or whatever and mess up. I would get upset because I knew how to count up into the hundreds, but the teacher would make me stop because I had made a mistake. I don't know if that's what was going on with Mary, but it doesn't really matter. I told him that Mary is definitely NOT regressing and that he definitely shouldn't ever say things like that in front of her.

I think a lot of his concern stems from worrying about what other people will think when they find out we are homeschooling. Like, that we're a bunch of weirdos, or that we're lazy, or that we are socially awkward, or religious wackos, or any number of typical stereotypes. To me, I don't really worry about what other people will think. If they are people we don't know really well, then who cares? If they are people we do know really well, then they will see that we aren't any of those things.

So how can I help him to understand? When I wanted to relax a lot of our rules about food with Mary, I printed off a few pages with excerpts from Sandra's site and left them for him to find. (I'm strewing for my husband!) This seemed to work really well. For some reason, I'm having trouble knowing what to give him for this issue because it's not as narrow as "food" and I'm not certain what would help him best. I can't really just point him to Sandra's site because it's so huge that I think it would be overwhelming. (Though I LOVE that it's huge and I'm always finding new things on there!)

Thanks in advance.
~Melissa

Sandra Dodd

-=-My husband, I'm afraid, is second-guessing our decision to keep our
daughter home from school.-=-

Is it really good to think of it as "our decision" then? If the two
of you had agreed on a school and then you started thinking
homeschooling would be better, would it be fair for him to say "My
wife, I'm afraid, is second-guessing our decision to enroll our
daughter in school"?

-=-This blows my mind. I mean, we have a 3 year old that can READ for
crying out loud. She's very bright, and interesting, and creative, and
all sorts of great things. Even if she couldn't read, she's still
awesome. I think that his feelings like this are fleeting (meaning he
doesn't feel that way all the time) and stem from his own insecurities
about not sending her to school the way everyone else is.-=-

Perhaps you could point out gently, quietly, that because she can
already read, she'll end up being bored in school, and possibly/likely
resented by the other kids, and made to spend hundreds of hours
reading things that are way too easy for her.

-=- I simply responded "Thirty," but then my husband said something
along the lines of I shouldn't keep hand-holding with her -=-

If he asked you a simple question and you responded, would you be
"hand-holding with him"? And he's not three years old. <g>

-=-I think a lot of his concern stems from worrying about what other
people will think when they find out we are homeschooling. Like, that
we're a bunch of weirdos, or that we're lazy, or that we are socially
awkward, or religious wackos, or any number of typical stereotypes. To
me, I don't really worry about what other people will think.-=-

MANY parents do great harm to their children by being more concerned
what a stranger three doors down will think than taking the small
effort to change enough to care more about what their child is feeling.

Could someone here make a recommendation from Joyce's page? Sometimes
dads like her writing better than mine. And maybe because it's not
overwhelmingly big (or doesn't appear to be at first glance <g>), that
would be a good place for him to look? I don't mean just send him
there, but maybe if Joyce or someone could think of one article you
could print it out, or at least part of it, and tell him you'd like to
talk about it, maybe. Maybe.

Maybe talking about his own childhood would be helpful. What does he
remember from being three and four? What would have been fun and
helpful to him then? Don't "Freud" out about it, just touch it and
back away, unless he wants to talk about it and the ideas flow. If
you have memories of being that age, maybe tell a story, one or two,
and then let it lie, give him a few days to think about it.

If he seems intent on looking at school, ask him to wait a year. A
year is a lot of days, and it's probably better not to press
unschooling *every* day, in his direction. Let him think about the
little things you do say or point out about your daughter's learning.

Getting him around other kids her age would help. Getting him around
other unschoolers might help a lot.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

> There have been several occasions during the past couple of weeks
> where she has wanted to do something (like watch a movie, or play
> on the computer) and he has told her that she should should do
> something to "use your brain" instead.

Instead of seeing his response as wrong, see it as genuine concern
and worry. You telling him he's wrong doesn't make the fear go away.
From his point of view he has real reasons to fear. Probably the
more you counter his responses to his worry, the more worried he'll
get since he isn't getting help dealing with it. It's like telling a
6 yo there are no monsters under the bed. All the words and
reassurances don't make the monsters go away. They just tell the
child he's on his own to deal with them.

At a time removed from one of these instances when you're both calm,
acknowledge his concern. Bring up the incident and let him know that
you understand he's concerned but that by telling her she should do
something different, the effect might be opposite of what he wants.
If he sits down with a bowl of ice cream he's been looking forward to
and you tell him maybe he should have something healthy like fruit,
does it make him want ice cream less and fruit more? Does it make him
look forward to your presence and potential comments when he sits
down with a bowl of ice cream? Does it make him want to sneak the ice
cream so he can avoid your commentary and judgement?

Instead of those moments when she's settling into something she
enjoys, how about picking moments when she's less engaged or wrapping
something up to draw her into something *with* him rather than
directing her away alone to something else.

And I'd ask him if he could talk to you about his concerns when Mary
can't hear rather than talk about it in front of Mary. She's not
going to be able to grasp what he says and what his concerns are
really about. She'll pick up the negativity and feel bad or wrong for
something she doesn't really understand. If she associates negativity
with counting, for instance, she might just stop counting.
> he thinks our daughter is "regressing," meaning that she used to be
> smarter and now she isn't
>

Often it's good to acknowledge someone's observation. I would bet
that it *does* look like she's regressing. If she was doing things
that demonstrated what she knows and is learning but is now doing a
lot of learning that's internal and quiet, it will *look* like she's
not doing anything.

Apparently Einstein looked like he was riding his bike to work at the
patent office when he was working out his theory of relativity ;-)
Unschooling *is* less satisfying that way. There are so many times we
have to trust that learning's going on because mostly it's happening
internally. The problem with schools is that teachers and parents get
feedback that learning is *supposedly* happening, but the feedback
really only means kids can spit something back on paper long enough
to be tested. It doesn't mean they've actually learned it or
understand it.

Sandra suggested there might be a couple of pages of mine that might
help him. I'm thinking the two that are linked at her site:

Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products

Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk

They're both broad about the difference between school learning and
natural learning.

Then maybe when a specific issue comes up you can find something at
my site that's more focused:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "melissamariemichael" <myatzeck@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having some issues with my husband not being fully on board with how I feel about homeschooling/unschooling and was hoping for some resources/advice/information on talking to him about the subject.
>
>

He might find this website interesting:
http://www.handschooling.com

Bob

Sandra Dodd

Bob and anyone else, whenever you bring a link to the list, please tie
it in with unschooling. Don't just send people to a link without
comment. Thanks.

I did go an look at it, and while yes, a skeptical dad might find it
useful, it looks to me more about politics, and this subject line
irritates me:


"How we can keep Obama from creating underclass youth by taking over
American education"

It suggests there aren't underclass youth in the U.S. There always
have been and there always will be.
Yes, some people do like to read about politics, but this list isn't
the best place for it.

Sandra

k

Also, two things about the handschooling site itself:

1) handschooling is not readily defined on the site without clicking
around some more, and many people might not get the point of the term
or care to without a definition right on the front page

2) while the idea is fine for promoting greater accessibility to info
in visual format on internet pages, unschooling is likely to seem a
big leap from handschooling since unschooling itself is a much broader
idea encompassing way more of the senses in a child's life and
experiences than that found on pages, even internet pages.

~Katherine

shirlinda_momof3

I did check out the site about handschooling because my husband (and our families) are still unsure about unschooling. Although we have homeschooled since 1987 (I am 2nd generation), we have 'unschooled' our children for 10 years, from birth. I have really not explained our methods to anyone because we do not have any! We just live and learn.

This website was very confusing to me. It seemed VERY political and was not geared toward homeschooling at all. They seem to be advocating a mobile wireless device as the "global knowledge commons network". I unschool because I want to facilitate my chidren's education not have them learn everything from a portable internet device.

I would most definitely not recommend this site to anyone who is confused/unsupportive of unschooling.

This quote alone was enough to make me stop reading the web page and write this note to the group:

"Yes, our children need a place to spend the day.
Yes, our kids need to learn to socialize with each other.
Yes, students need to articulate, discourse, and compete.
Yes, our youngsters need to have teachers guide them to knowledge.

None of the above has to do with the fact that knowledge has moved online.
Nonetheless, billions are spent every year perpetuating a system of local schools where kids are required by law to spend their days, in a system that is based on the assumption that we send our kids to school to learn knowledge and be certified to their achievement."

My kids DO NOT NEED any of the above that cannot be provided in a safe, loving home environment. Has the author ever heard of homeschooling? My children are not required by any law in this country to spend their days in a government system. In fact, the laws are just the opposite; I have the freedom to choose what is best for my children.

I have enjoyed this site, although I am new here! I have also read several Dodd and Holt books as well as other authors. We use our daily lives to educate our children. We facilitate their education with activities and books and computers from home and away. We do use the internet and I don't think our children are suffering from a lack of global knowledge.

I was very disappointed with the recommendation of this website. Thank you, Sandra, for requesting that this site be used for unschooling issues. I look forward to reading more posts to help my own current situation.


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Bob and anyone else, whenever you bring a link to the list, please tie
> it in with unschooling. Don't just send people to a link without
> comment. Thanks.
>
> I did go an look at it, and while yes, a skeptical dad might find it
> useful, it looks to me more about politics, and this subject line
> irritates me:
>
>
> "How we can keep Obama from creating underclass youth by taking over
> American education"
>
> It suggests there aren't underclass youth in the U.S. There always
> have been and there always will be.
> Yes, some people do like to read about politics, but this list isn't
> the best place for it.
>
> Sandra
>

Bun

My oldest daughter also read at 3 1/2. The library is still one of her favorite places as she has never been forced to read, read aloud, discuss what she doesn't want to, read specific bks on a timetable, or been classified as gifted/slow etc. I think she felt supported in that I'd just answer her questions (not say "look it up" in the dictionary, etc). She is now 12. Some of her schooled friends seem to lose a kind of spark/enthusiasm for certain things like joining book clubs, reading in general, etc. Maybe because they have so much required of them in school? I love that my daughter has a continued interest in reading and knows she can learn what she wants to when and if she wants to (and in many different ways, not just from reading).

> I simply responded "Thirty," but then my husband said something along the lines of I shouldn't keep hand-holding with her -

In the case of a math question, perhaps your daughter felt nervous counting in front of her dad as she might sense his anxiety. Or maybe she is just asking because she forgot for a second and wanted a quick answer and assumed she could rely on you or her dad to provide it? Either way, answering the simple question (assuming we know the answer) helps us build trust as our kids learn they can depend on us yet again.

Your husband already knows some of the many things your daughter has learned. Can he trust her longer to notice her make more "progress?" If it would help him, books are available that show what is generally taught in what grade (Nancy Plent has them -http://www.unschoolersnetwork.bravehost.com/guides.html) Maybe he'd see that she knows much of it already and realize she'd be bored.

To help think about how parents generally treat their children, might he be willing to watch "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn? It is available as a book or DVD. The dvd is a taping of one of his two hour lectures.

Laurie

Bun

Forgot one more thing - I highly recommend Rue Kream's book "Parenting a Free Child." It is my ablsolute favorite book for parenting/unschooling! Here's a link to her book...
http://www.freechild.info/

Laurie :)

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

If it would help him, books are available that show what is generally taught in what grade (Nancy Plent has them -http://www.unschool ersnetwork. bravehost. com/guides. html) Maybe he'd see that she knows much of it already and realize she'd be bored.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I don't know if buying an "unschooling guide" ( which is NOT unschooling at all)will help a dad understand unschooling.
I don't like the idea of it at all.
Suggesting things to read, going to a Conference, maybe having him join the SSUDS group and honest conversations will be the way to go before you BUY a guide of what children are supposed to learn in school.
Actually you can find that information online for free if you google. I did and got a ton of links.
Also it says:
"Our guides are researched so that you can see what schools teach at
each level. They offer simple suggestions that help you go about
presenting subjects in non-school like ways. They list sources for
materials for each subject that are especially appropriate for home
teaching."

How is that unschooling at all?
Will giving him more school stuff help a dad understand unschooling?

When my son was younger around 3 or 4 my husband once said that he thought he needed to at least learn the baiscs ( which of course he meant I needed to teach him the basics) I asked him if he still remember what he was thought in school and reminded him how I learned to read and all the stuff he learned out of school)
He got it. He did not remember much. He hated school and it was a waste of time for him. He felt stupid and slow in school and all he wanted to do is be home and farm and how much he learned just doing that.
He could not do math problems in school but can figure out complicated math stuff in his head if it has to do with farming.
Another thing that really made a difference was meeting Ben Lovejoy ( he came over to our home and they bonded over a bike ride) and David Waynforth ( repectively Kelly Lovejoy and Schuyler Waynforth's husbands ).
He also loved the almost two days he spent at a Conference seeing the kids.



Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/





________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

My husband has read some of Rue's book and that helped too.
He also has heard Sandra's Peaceful Parenting talk on the computer and loves Sandra.
I have Moving a Puddle ( one of Sandra;s book) but my sister hijacked it. <g>

If I just leave it on the coffee table or read interesting parts to my husband he is very open.
As soon as I can I will by the Big Book.



Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/





________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***My husband, I'm afraid, is second-guessing our decision to keep our daughter home from school. ***

I remember when I made the decision to keep Chamille out of school when she was 5. It felt like I'd just turned the world upside down, I didn't, but that's how it felt. Five yr olds are supposed to go to kindergarten, moms are supposed to have their heart felt, teary good byes to their little ones on their first day of school. Right? So, when I decided not to do that, it felt really big to me. The weird thing, kindergarten didn't even exist here when I was 5, unless you put your child in a private school.

I think a lot of husbands are really unfamiliar with child development in general. A lot dads expect more from their little ones than they are developmentally able to give. Just because a 4 yr old can read, doesn't mean she can wipe herself after going to the toilet, for example. When my oldest didn't go to school for kindergarten, her best friend was being put in all the Talented and Gifted programs because she already knew how to read. Same age, same general developmental abilities, same abilities to think, both girls played house and imagination games, but with the one significant difference of one being able to read.

Parents totally buy into this too, that a child is somehow extra special if they learn how to read early. Today, both those girls are 15, both are still smart and able to think and reason, each of them have interesting talents, both of them can read, my daughter is still not in school and the other girl still is. What this other girl has that my daughter doesn't, lots and lots and lots of homework for her upper level, talented classes.

***I think a lot of his concern stems from worrying about what other people will think when they find out we are homeschooling. Like, that we're a bunch of weirdos, or that we're lazy, or that we are socially awkward, or religious wackos, or any number of typical stereotypes. ***

All those folks exist in schools too, weirdo parents, lazy parents, socially awkward parents, religious wacko parents. Homeschoolers represent a cross section of society, at least that's what I've found over the years. It might help your husband a great deal to see your daughter playing with other homeschool kids, and even other school kids, so he can kind of see the differences in play and interaction and to get a feel for how kids in general ARE.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mica

Hi Melissa

Just on the counting thing:

I remember seeing the same thing happen with my sons and nephews... it took
a while for me to recognise that for them, asking someone else for the next
number was a new (level or phase or variation) in the play of their counting
game... much as one singer might cue another to pitch in with the next line
of a song - we both know the song, how about you join in (maybe this is why
it took me so long to recognise the play because I don't know many songs and
don't sing). I've sometimes seem this phase of a child asking parent what
number comes next, using precisely the same words the parents had earlier
used to either test, or encourage the child to play the counting game.

Perhaps you could explore the idea with your husband that when Mary is
asking about something you know she knows, she is actually inviting you to
join in the game... and your challenge as parents is to see with how much
fun you can join in? I've seen some parents play with wrong answers, some
pretend to forget, some sing or use funny voices to join in, some use a
different language, some use cryptics (other ways to represent numbers such
as a dozen for 12 or bakers dozen for thirteen, two hands for ten, a glove
for five, a goal for six (in Australian rules football a goal is worth 6
points)).

If playing is a challenge for your husband as it was for me there was a book
called Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen that I found inspiring.

Mica

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:08 PM, melissamariemichael <myatzeck@...>wrote:

>
>
> -snipped- Mary was in the back seat counting out loud just for the fun of
> it, and she got to 29 and asked me what number comes next. I simply
> responded "Thirty," but then my husband said something along the lines of I
> shouldn't keep hand-holding with her and that she knows better than that and
> that maybe she needs to go to school because she's "regressing." Now I
> *know* that Mary can count past 30 because I've heard her do it lots of
> times. Mary knows she can count past 30, and my husband knows it too.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/10/2010 3:08 AM, melissamariemichael wrote:
> I mean, we have a 3 year old that can READ for crying out loud. She's very bright, and interesting, and creative, and all sorts of great things. Even if she couldn't read, she's still awesome.

What helped my husband, who sounded almost exactly like yours, back all
those years ago <G>, was getting involved with girls soccer and getting
to know a bunch of other little girls the same ages as our daughters. I
was very surprised at how very very far out of touch my dh was regarding
child development. I mean, he was really and truly totally clueless.

-pam

Robyn Coburn

I think in addition to all that has been said, that it might be worth gently
mentioning to your dh that your dd is only about to be 4. Despite all the
recent and new push for universal preschool - which is a really a way of
providing free childcare to working parents - your dd has already
accomplished more of the school readiness activity that a pre-K program will
do because she is already reading. Perhaps it is worth using the delaying
tactic of reminding him what the legal requirements are in your state.

Perhaps some of the pedagogical writings against early academics by well
known experts would help your dh relax.

Jayn is 10. Sometimes she wants to pretend to be a baby and talks in high
pitched baby talk. It is hard to listen to at times. She does not forget how
to read or lose her vocabulary just because of these momentary games.
Sometimes she wants to double check what she knows and asks a relatively
simplistic question.

I think your dh is using what can be a pretty serious diagnostic term -
"regression" - to describe playing around with words. Maybe asking him to
clarify what he really thinks is happening in her mind - I have a hunch it
will really be about his fears about how she might look to others.

I'm sometimes a bit of pessimist. With that in mind I would not talk *too*
much to him about her early reading, or he will likely start on the subject
of getting her into AP and Gifted programs, a whole other issue...
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com


On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:08 AM, melissamariemichael <myatzeck@...>wrote:

>
>
> I'm having some issues with my husband not being fully on board with how I
> feel about homeschooling/unschooling and was hoping for some
> resources/advice/information on talking to him about the subject.
>
> My daughter Mary is turning 4 next week, and we've already got some notices
> in the mail about how she is now eligible for 4K programs and inviting us to
> open houses and the like.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-What helped my husband, who sounded almost exactly like yours, back
all
those years ago <G>, was getting involved with girls soccer and getting
to know a bunch of other little girls the same ages as our daughters. I
was very surprised at how very very far out of touch my dh was regarding
child development. I mean, he was really and truly totally clueless.-=-

My husband expected too much of my kids when they were little, and
though I told him they were well behaved and bright, he seemed to
doubt it. I started to find more opportunities for him to be around
other families with young children, and when kids were over I just
slightly and subtly would get the kids in his line of vision. Or
we'd take a group of kids out to eat and play at a playground. When
he saw kids with kids, whether the behaviors were great or not, it
gave him a way better idea of what was normal kid behavior and also
what was cool. He relaxed a whole lot.

Just as kids get older every day, dads become more experienced dads
every day.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/10/2010 9:56 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
> If it would help him, books are available that show what is generally taught in what grade (Nancy Plent has them -http://www.unschool ersnetwork. bravehost. com/guides. html) Maybe he'd see that she knows much of it already and realize she'd be bored.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I don't know if buying an "unschooling guide" ( which is NOT unschooling at all)will help a dad understand unschooling.
> I don't like the idea of it at all.
>

I think that in this one person's situation it might not be such a bad
idea. I mean - if you've got a checklist of what they're supposed to be
learning in kindergarten and first grade and you actually can check it
all off, then you've possibly gotten yourself a couple of years grace
period - a lot of time for him to learn more and come to better
understand unschooling.

You could get the world book course of study list or the state standards
for your state (the ones for California on available online). The world
book course of study for kindergarten is here:
<http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?curriculum/kindergarten> I mean -
c'mon - it includes things like: * Observation of everyday, familiar
things <BEG>.

I used to look at lists like that - and let them inspire me to expose or
introduce my kids to new things or things I might not have thought of as
potentially interesting. When I look at that list and see, "Simple
Measurement" for example, I might think of picking up some plastic
measuring spoons and measuring cups to have as bath toys. I mean, maybe.
IF that seemed like something my kid might enjoy. (My kids liked all
kinds of things used as bath toys a lot when they were little and pool
toys, too, as they got older.)

Also - sometimes these lists give hints about the developmental stages
of kids of about that age. Notice that counting from 1 to 20 is on the
kindergarten list --- that means that is something they hope kids will
learn that year - the year they turn 6 years old! I think it might
really help some people relax during those early years if they are more
aware of what the school is actually trying to teach. Many people
imagine it to be a lot more than it really is.

-pam

Amanda Lane

<Just as kids get older every day, dads become more experienced dads
every day.>

I like that one. It gives me hope for my husband <g>




________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 11:31:49 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Help Talking with Spouse About Unschooling

 
-=-What helped my husband, who sounded almost exactly like yours, back
all
those years ago <G>, was getting involved with girls soccer and getting
to know a bunch of other little girls the same ages as our daughters. I
was very surprised at how very very far out of touch my dh was regarding
child development. I mean, he was really and truly totally clueless.-=-

My husband expected too much of my kids when they were little, and
though I told him they were well behaved and bright, he seemed to
doubt it. I started to find more opportunities for him to be around
other families with young children, and when kids were over I just
slightly and subtly would get the kids in his line of vision. Or
we'd take a group of kids out to eat and play at a playground. When
he saw kids with kids, whether the behaviors were great or not, it
gave him a way better idea of what was normal kid behavior and also
what was cool. He relaxed a whole lot.

Just as kids get older every day, dads become more experienced dads
every day.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/10/2010 8:18 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> Perhaps some of the pedagogical writings against early academics by well
> known experts would help your dh relax.
>

Good idea. "The Hurried Child" and "Miseducation" both by David Elkind
-- not about homeschooling or unschooling, but about delaying academics.


-pam

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Bob and anyone else, whenever you bring a link to the list, please tie
> it in with unschooling. Don't just send people to a link without
> comment. Thanks.
>
> I did go an look at it, and while yes, a skeptical dad might find it
> useful, it looks to me more about politics, and this subject line
> irritates me:
>
>
> "How we can keep Obama from creating underclass youth by taking over
> American education"
>
> It suggests there aren't underclass youth in the U.S. There always
> have been and there always will be.
> Yes, some people do like to read about politics, but this list isn't
> the best place for it.
>
> Sandra
>




I read an article recently by Wendy Priesnitz, author of 'Challenging Assumptions in Education' (which I'm currently unable to re-find), in which she suggested that unschoolers are the pioneers of a way of learning that everybody will have to adopt eventually. Something to that effect.

The Handschooling website provides more evidence than I've seen anywhere that Wendy Priesnitz is right.

I thought it might be useful for somebody considering homeschooling or unschooling and needing to convince somebody else to be aware that, regardless of philosophical arguments, there are sound educational reasons for not sending a child to school in 2010.

Bob

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "shirlinda_momof3" <savahl@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I did check out the site about handschooling because my husband (and our families) are still unsure about unschooling. Although we have homeschooled since 1987 (I am 2nd generation), we have 'unschooled' our children for 10 years, from birth. I have really not explained our methods to anyone because we do not have any! We just live and learn.
>
> This website was very confusing to me. It seemed VERY political and was not geared toward homeschooling at all. They seem to be advocating a mobile wireless device as the "global knowledge commons network". I unschool because I want to facilitate my chidren's education not have them learn everything from a portable internet device.
>
> I would most definitely not recommend this site to anyone who is confused/unsupportive of unschooling.
>
>


That's fair enough. I guess not everybody sees the connection.

Bob

Sandra Dodd

This is great:

----------------------
I read an article recently by Wendy Priesnitz, author of 'Challenging
Assumptions in Education' (which I'm currently unable to re-find), in
which she suggested that unschoolers are the pioneers of a way of
learning that everybody will have to adopt eventually. Something to
that effect.

The Handschooling website provides more evidence than I've seen
anywhere that Wendy Priesnitz is right.

I thought it might be useful for somebody considering homeschooling or
unschooling and needing to convince somebody else to be aware that,
regardless of philosophical arguments, there are sound educational
reasons for not sending a child to school in 2010.

Bob
---------------

Next time, please, if you have time, make that kind of intro when you
send the link itself. Thanks!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "shirlinda_momof3" <savahl@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I did check out the site about handschooling because my husband (and our families) are still unsure about unschooling. Although we have homeschooled since 1987 (I am 2nd generation), we have 'unschooled' our children for 10 years, from birth. I have really not explained our methods to anyone because we do not have any! We just live and learn.
> >
> > This website was very confusing to me. It seemed VERY political and was not geared toward homeschooling at all. They seem to be advocating a mobile wireless device as the "global knowledge commons network". I unschool because I want to facilitate my chidren's education not have them learn everything from a portable internet device.
> >
> > I would most definitely not recommend this site to anyone who is confused/unsupportive of unschooling.
> >
> >
>
>
> That's fair enough. I guess not everybody sees the connection.
>
> Bob
>



I should add that I agree the website isn't about unschooling. Even the chapter in Judy Breck's book 'Intertwingle' (her vision of the world in 2030) that she calls "Unschooling" is not about unschooling as I understand it. It's more akin to an acknowledgement of the value of informal learning and that children are perfectly capable of learning informally by themselves. Even business leaders have been known to acknowledge that as much as 80% of what people know about their jobs is learned on the job not in the classroom and that's not unschooling either.

In my view, the website is useful for getting through to people who are still fixed on the idea that children need to go to school to get an education and particularly it helps to make clear the fact that, in 2010, *nobody* actually needs to be physically present in a specific designated location (such as, for example, a school classroom) in order to get a 'good education', never mind those who prefer not to go there to begin with.

Perhaps that is only my view! Anyway, I'm not going to talk about it any more. LOL

Bob

Jenny Cyphers

***In my view, the website is useful for getting through to people who are still fixed on the idea that children need to go to school to get an education and particularly it helps to make clear the fact that, in 2010, *nobody* actually needs to be physically present in a specific designated location (such as, for example, a school classroom) in order to get a 'good education', never mind those who prefer not to go there to begin with.

Perhaps that is only my view!***

I got the connection too!  But then I initially came to unschooling from a very anti-school stance, one that I've softened over the years!  Some things help people connect the dots and some things don't.  It really depends on the person and how they think!  So, even though I got where you were going with it, it did help to have the explanation of how YOUR dots connected! 

That is what I've found really nice in unschooling discussions, is seeing the thoughts of lots of people and how they interpret things and take them.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Bob ... I appreciate the clarification a lot. Sometimes what one sees isn't
obvious to another person. I do that a lot. (Try not to but there you have
it)

~Katherine



On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Bob Collier <
bobcollier@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "shirlinda_momof3" <savahl@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I did check out the site about handschooling because my husband (and
> our families) are still unsure about unschooling. Although we have
> homeschooled since 1987 (I am 2nd generation), we have 'unschooled' our
> children for 10 years, from birth. I have really not explained our methods
> to anyone because we do not have any! We just live and learn.
> > >
> > > This website was very confusing to me. It seemed VERY political and
> was not geared toward homeschooling at all. They seem to be advocating a
> mobile wireless device as the "global knowledge commons network". I
> unschool because I want to facilitate my chidren's education not have them
> learn everything from a portable internet device.
> > >
> > > I would most definitely not recommend this site to anyone who is
> confused/unsupportive of unschooling.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > That's fair enough. I guess not everybody sees the connection.
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
>
> I should add that I agree the website isn't about unschooling. Even the
> chapter in Judy Breck's book 'Intertwingle' (her vision of the world in
> 2030) that she calls "Unschooling" is not about unschooling as I understand
> it. It's more akin to an acknowledgement of the value of informal learning
> and that children are perfectly capable of learning informally by
> themselves. Even business leaders have been known to acknowledge that as
> much as 80% of what people know about their jobs is learned on the job not
> in the classroom and that's not unschooling either.
>
> In my view, the website is useful for getting through to people who are
> still fixed on the idea that children need to go to school to get an
> education and particularly it helps to make clear the fact that, in 2010,
> *nobody* actually needs to be physically present in a specific designated
> location (such as, for example, a school classroom) in order to get a 'good
> education', never mind those who prefer not to go there to begin with.
>
> Perhaps that is only my view! Anyway, I'm not going to talk about it any
> more. LOL
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> Bob ... I appreciate the clarification a lot. Sometimes what one sees isn't
> obvious to another person. I do that a lot. (Try not to but there you have
> it)
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>


I would have helped myself by taking the time to explain when I posted the link. As Sandra said. :-)

Bob