Support
Sandra Dodd
I woke up thinking of some of the kinds of bad advice people give,
which they call "support."
Perhaps it was generations of perceived powerlessness among women, but
one "supportive" close to any conversation among women about problems
no matter how horrendous is "I'm sure it will all work out."
"I'm sure it will all work out."
In terms of centuries, perhaps that's true. My grandmothers had some
problems, and the way that all worked out is they eventually died.
And I'll eventually die. And my children will eventually die. I'm
sure it will all work out.
And some people do live in the stretched-out future.
Unschooling won't just work out. It's something that needs to be
done, and done consciously.
Relationships don't just work out. They need to be tended to.
Sometimes they need to be tended to as a garden in Spring. Add the
good stuff; subtract the undesireable parts. Water it. Fence it if
you need to, but keep an eye on it and don't wander off for a week
and expect it to all have known what you had envisioned. Don't pull
the plants up to see if they're growing. Don't command them to grow.
Sometimes they need to be tended to as a wound--keep it clean and
don't pick at it. Sleep, eat, drink lots of water, avoid agitation,
be gentle with it.
I'm adding "I'm sure it will all work out" to
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
which they call "support."
Perhaps it was generations of perceived powerlessness among women, but
one "supportive" close to any conversation among women about problems
no matter how horrendous is "I'm sure it will all work out."
"I'm sure it will all work out."
In terms of centuries, perhaps that's true. My grandmothers had some
problems, and the way that all worked out is they eventually died.
And I'll eventually die. And my children will eventually die. I'm
sure it will all work out.
And some people do live in the stretched-out future.
Unschooling won't just work out. It's something that needs to be
done, and done consciously.
Relationships don't just work out. They need to be tended to.
Sometimes they need to be tended to as a garden in Spring. Add the
good stuff; subtract the undesireable parts. Water it. Fence it if
you need to, but keep an eye on it and don't wander off for a week
and expect it to all have known what you had envisioned. Don't pull
the plants up to see if they're growing. Don't command them to grow.
Sometimes they need to be tended to as a wound--keep it clean and
don't pick at it. Sleep, eat, drink lots of water, avoid agitation,
be gentle with it.
I'm adding "I'm sure it will all work out" to
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
:) I just hate expression, "It's all good". Because it is not, is it?
Marina
Marina
On 10 February 2010 04:06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> I woke up thinking of some of the kinds of bad advice people give,
> which they call "support."
> Perhaps it was generations of perceived powerlessness among women, but
> one "supportive" close to any conversation among women about problems
> no matter how horrendous is "I'm sure it will all work out."
>
> "I'm sure it will all work out."
>
> In terms of centuries, perhaps that's true. My grandmothers had some
> problems, and the way that all worked out is they eventually died.
> And I'll eventually die. And my children will eventually die. I'm
> sure it will all work out.
>
> And some people do live in the stretched-out future.
>
> Unschooling won't just work out. It's something that needs to be
> done, and done consciously.
>
> Relationships don't just work out. They need to be tended to.
>
> Sometimes they need to be tended to as a garden in Spring. Add the
> good stuff; subtract the undesireable parts. Water it. Fence it if
> you need to, but keep an eye on it and don't wander off for a week
> and expect it to all have known what you had envisioned. Don't pull
> the plants up to see if they're growing. Don't command them to grow.
>
> Sometimes they need to be tended to as a wound--keep it clean and
> don't pick at it. Sleep, eat, drink lots of water, avoid agitation,
> be gentle with it.
>
> I'm adding "I'm sure it will all work out" to
> http://sandradodd.com/support
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I just hate expression, "It's all good". Because it is not, is it?-
=-
A friend of mine is an Albuquerque police officer. I've known him
since he was 20 or so, and he was the squire of Vagn, who was my
husband's squire years before. Mark is his real name.
Mark said once he was arresting a guy on suspicion of murder. Right
at the site. The guy was sitting on the curb, hand cuffed and they
were reading him his rights and asking him the basic questions, for
arresting him, and explaining what they were doing and why. The
suspect said to Mark, "It's all good."
Very inappropriate.
Sandra
=-
A friend of mine is an Albuquerque police officer. I've known him
since he was 20 or so, and he was the squire of Vagn, who was my
husband's squire years before. Mark is his real name.
Mark said once he was arresting a guy on suspicion of murder. Right
at the site. The guy was sitting on the curb, hand cuffed and they
were reading him his rights and asking him the basic questions, for
arresting him, and explaining what they were doing and why. The
suspect said to Mark, "It's all good."
Very inappropriate.
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Sandra wrote:
Marina
>The suspect said to Mark, "It's all good."Thanks Sandra, you made me laugh so hard tears came to my eyes.
>Very inappropriate.
Marina
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
"There is so much nastiness in groups where you would think there would be mutual support. It never ceases to amaze me."
If someone calls disagreement "nastiness" and then goes away, many things will continue to amaze her.
That was said of discussions like this one and Radical Unschooling Info. Or probably it was being said about one of those, or at least of the cartoon version of one that some people carry around in their heads.
If someone gives bad advice about unschooling and I say "that is bad advice for someone wanting to understand unschooling," have I been nasty?
If someone gave bad advice and I thought "Now, don't be the least bit nasy," I could write, "Okay, good; good thinking. Would you like to consider tweaking that a bit, toward what some people have sometimes thought might be helpful to unscholing?" And the author of the bad advice could say "No. I stand by my advice."
That would be pretty nasty of me, if my intent was to provide and promote ideas that can and will and do and have help(ed) people move from bafflement to a solid understanding of radical unschooling.
For people who want to be supported in their bafflement, things will continue to amaze them, but not in a lofty, learning way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If someone calls disagreement "nastiness" and then goes away, many things will continue to amaze her.
That was said of discussions like this one and Radical Unschooling Info. Or probably it was being said about one of those, or at least of the cartoon version of one that some people carry around in their heads.
If someone gives bad advice about unschooling and I say "that is bad advice for someone wanting to understand unschooling," have I been nasty?
If someone gave bad advice and I thought "Now, don't be the least bit nasy," I could write, "Okay, good; good thinking. Would you like to consider tweaking that a bit, toward what some people have sometimes thought might be helpful to unscholing?" And the author of the bad advice could say "No. I stand by my advice."
That would be pretty nasty of me, if my intent was to provide and promote ideas that can and will and do and have help(ed) people move from bafflement to a solid understanding of radical unschooling.
For people who want to be supported in their bafflement, things will continue to amaze them, but not in a lofty, learning way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sandra
I have been in supportive unschooling groups where everything that was written was not really challenged or taken as valid.
I have read for years on those and I am not surprised when the parents that have been there come on and write horrible things their kids are doing, or about their relationship with their children or write something that shows their adversrial relationship with their children.
I also see in real life how what they write can lead to not happy, joyful, unharmed people.
WHy would I want to accept those ideas with the same value as ideas that lead to more peace, joy, happines, learning, partnership and growth.
I just found out an unschooling friend has separated and I am in shock for the reasons for it. Sure I am not in her shoes an I do not know what really transpired but all I can say is that I am glad I read here from people who write clearly and focus on ideas that lead to more peace, learning, partnership, love and joy and not selfishness.
Your clarity and the amount of mindfulness that is put into the replies in this list by many is greatly appreciated.
I have felt shaken by things written here to me and I have learned so much because of it and learned from separating the ideas and examining them.
I like how this discussion list is about examining all ideas and words. It has led me to real understanding of unschooling and more, it has spilled all over my life in a very positive way.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been in supportive unschooling groups where everything that was written was not really challenged or taken as valid.
I have read for years on those and I am not surprised when the parents that have been there come on and write horrible things their kids are doing, or about their relationship with their children or write something that shows their adversrial relationship with their children.
I also see in real life how what they write can lead to not happy, joyful, unharmed people.
WHy would I want to accept those ideas with the same value as ideas that lead to more peace, joy, happines, learning, partnership and growth.
I just found out an unschooling friend has separated and I am in shock for the reasons for it. Sure I am not in her shoes an I do not know what really transpired but all I can say is that I am glad I read here from people who write clearly and focus on ideas that lead to more peace, learning, partnership, love and joy and not selfishness.
Your clarity and the amount of mindfulness that is put into the replies in this list by many is greatly appreciated.
I have felt shaken by things written here to me and I have learned so much because of it and learned from separating the ideas and examining them.
I like how this discussion list is about examining all ideas and words. It has led me to real understanding of unschooling and more, it has spilled all over my life in a very positive way.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<I have been in supportive unschooling groups where everything that was written was not really challenged or taken as valid.>>
I meant to say that :
I have been in supportive unschooling groups where everything that was written was not really challenged and that everything was taken as valid.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I meant to say that :
I have been in supportive unschooling groups where everything that was written was not really challenged and that everything was taken as valid.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I just found out an unschooling friend has separated and I am in shock for the reasons for it. -=-
Someone in that other discussion wrote that nobody had ever asked her whether they should get divorced or not.
That's interesting, but not at all surprising to me.
Kirby, when he was 15, was asked for advice from a couple in their 20's, and he was able to help them stay together.
I've been asked to help in three situations in the past year, with three different outcomes (in my opinion; no telling really-longterm). I knew all three (six) in person (had met, at least once, and had spent more time communicating with the wives than the husbands).
Two are divorcing. One couple I think won't regret it as much as the other will. At least one, though, I think will be sorry soon, as they see that things aren't better. Their kids are in school already.
The third stayed together.
I wish all three had, at least for a while longer, tried other tactics, and to put their children ahead of their anger and personal problems. They could have changed some attitudes and actions and many things would have changed.
It's good when someone does better in a new relationship, after a separation or divorce. If one can see what went wrong and then avoid what contributed to the problems, that's great. But when someone decides to blame the other partner for all of it, entirely, it's the recipe for a re-run.
I know some people who have been married three or four times, with similar problems each time. From the point of view of the kids, if the problems are the same all the time, it would be better for the problem guy to be their dad than stepdad #2 or #3.
When someone has divorced and it wasn't something they could find a way to avoid, it's sad, of course, but if they want to discuss it at length and justify it, an unschooling discussion isn't a good place for it. They might still be able to unschool, depending on the ex, the grandparents, new partners, judges, social workers (depending how many eventually get involved). If it's not an unschooling situation in the first place, then it has little to nothing to do with this discussion at all, unless it's about one of the parents here having been harmed by a divorce.
What we can take from our lives that helps us move toward more peace is good.
What is brought here that would encourage negative reactions or behaviors is probably going to be questioned, in light of what helps unschooling work well.
I want to support children's happiness.
I want to support knowledge of unschooling, rather than the details of any one family.
I want to create an environment in which learning about unschooling can flourish. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Someone in that other discussion wrote that nobody had ever asked her whether they should get divorced or not.
That's interesting, but not at all surprising to me.
Kirby, when he was 15, was asked for advice from a couple in their 20's, and he was able to help them stay together.
I've been asked to help in three situations in the past year, with three different outcomes (in my opinion; no telling really-longterm). I knew all three (six) in person (had met, at least once, and had spent more time communicating with the wives than the husbands).
Two are divorcing. One couple I think won't regret it as much as the other will. At least one, though, I think will be sorry soon, as they see that things aren't better. Their kids are in school already.
The third stayed together.
I wish all three had, at least for a while longer, tried other tactics, and to put their children ahead of their anger and personal problems. They could have changed some attitudes and actions and many things would have changed.
It's good when someone does better in a new relationship, after a separation or divorce. If one can see what went wrong and then avoid what contributed to the problems, that's great. But when someone decides to blame the other partner for all of it, entirely, it's the recipe for a re-run.
I know some people who have been married three or four times, with similar problems each time. From the point of view of the kids, if the problems are the same all the time, it would be better for the problem guy to be their dad than stepdad #2 or #3.
When someone has divorced and it wasn't something they could find a way to avoid, it's sad, of course, but if they want to discuss it at length and justify it, an unschooling discussion isn't a good place for it. They might still be able to unschool, depending on the ex, the grandparents, new partners, judges, social workers (depending how many eventually get involved). If it's not an unschooling situation in the first place, then it has little to nothing to do with this discussion at all, unless it's about one of the parents here having been harmed by a divorce.
What we can take from our lives that helps us move toward more peace is good.
What is brought here that would encourage negative reactions or behaviors is probably going to be questioned, in light of what helps unschooling work well.
I want to support children's happiness.
I want to support knowledge of unschooling, rather than the details of any one family.
I want to create an environment in which learning about unschooling can flourish. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tauna Grinager
I've been thinking about that thread a lot, and wondering if you knew about it. What is it that creates so much negativity about a person or group sharing their hard-earned knowledge, experience and time (for free, too!)? Do you think maybe it's because they want easy solutions, everything packaged all nice and pretty on the surface? But if they're challenged to get beyond that and go deeper, it seems some prefer to lash out and say you're too mean. The ironic thing is in the same post they'd accuse you of doing/saying things I've never seen, while doing it themselves. And for what reason? They could just keep quiet. Or be positive - sending an uplifting message instead. To say the least, I'm still baffled. Being straightforward, honest and encouraging families to not unschool in a mediocre way is not nasty. Nasty would be only responding with platitudes when parents are obviously struggling to get it.
To be honest, the other unschooling groups I've joined on facebook don't offer much. Maybe a good meme to share once in a while. So much of what's said is focused on why public school is bad. Why government is bad. Why it's okay to slip up once in a while and be mean to your kid. When they do share something actually pertaining to unschooling, they often make it sound like all one has to do is pull your kid out of school, deschool, and life is easy-peasy. With kids magically doing amazing things. I often wonder what's really going on in their homes.
In real life, I've met a number of families that say they're unschooling. Only one of them is one I can say is doing so up to the standard shared here. We spend as much time with them as we can. Fortunately their son is my son's favorite friend. Which doesn't surprise me - he's a lucky kid with an amazing, joyful, imaginative family life, and he reflects that back to the world. I'd rather hold that one family as my model than have 10 more unschooling families that are just "okay".
Thank you for all you do, Sandra!
Tauna
To be honest, the other unschooling groups I've joined on facebook don't offer much. Maybe a good meme to share once in a while. So much of what's said is focused on why public school is bad. Why government is bad. Why it's okay to slip up once in a while and be mean to your kid. When they do share something actually pertaining to unschooling, they often make it sound like all one has to do is pull your kid out of school, deschool, and life is easy-peasy. With kids magically doing amazing things. I often wonder what's really going on in their homes.
In real life, I've met a number of families that say they're unschooling. Only one of them is one I can say is doing so up to the standard shared here. We spend as much time with them as we can. Fortunately their son is my son's favorite friend. Which doesn't surprise me - he's a lucky kid with an amazing, joyful, imaginative family life, and he reflects that back to the world. I'd rather hold that one family as my model than have 10 more unschooling families that are just "okay".
Thank you for all you do, Sandra!
Tauna
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>"There is so much nastiness in groups where you would think there would be mutual support. It never ceases to amaze me."
>
>If someone calls disagreement "nastiness" and then goes away, many things will continue to amaze her.
>
>That was said of discussions like this one and Radical Unschooling Info. Or probably it was being said about one of those, or at least of the cartoon version of one that some people carry around in their heads.
>
>If someone gives bad advice about unschooling and I say "that is bad advice for someone wanting to understand unschooling," have I been nasty?
>
>If someone gave bad advice and I thought "Now, don't be the least bit nasy," I could write, "Okay, good; good thinking. Would you like to consider tweaking that a bit, toward what some people have sometimes thought might be helpful to unscholing?" And the author of the bad advice could say "No. I stand by my advice."
>
>That would be pretty nasty of me, if my intent was to provide and promote ideas that can and will and do and have help(ed) people move from bafflement to a solid understanding of radical unschooling.
>
>For people who want to be supported in their bafflement, things will continue to amaze them, but not in a lofty, learning way.
>
>Sandra
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<I want to support children's happiness.
I want to support knowledge of unschooling, rather than the details of any one family.
I want to create an environment in which learning about unschooling can flourish. :-)>>>
And for me it has here.
And I have seen confusion and unhappiness in people in other groups who are supportive of anything goes.
I have seen kids in schooll and unhappy parents.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want to support knowledge of unschooling, rather than the details of any one family.
I want to create an environment in which learning about unschooling can flourish. :-)>>>
And for me it has here.
And I have seen confusion and unhappiness in people in other groups who are supportive of anything goes.
I have seen kids in schooll and unhappy parents.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
"There is so much nastiness in groups where you would think there would be mutual support. It never ceases to amaze me."
I always wonder what mutual support is. What does that actually look like? What one person sees as mutual, isn't at all that for someone else. What amazes me in these kinds of discussions is that people have very specific expectations and when they aren't met, they blame the delivery and NOT their expectations. There have been discussions where I have wanted to ask "What exactly do you expect people to tell you?". I don't think they've really thought about it, which simply exacerbates the problem that they perceive in the first place.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I always wonder what mutual support is. What does that actually look like? What one person sees as mutual, isn't at all that for someone else. What amazes me in these kinds of discussions is that people have very specific expectations and when they aren't met, they blame the delivery and NOT their expectations. There have been discussions where I have wanted to ask "What exactly do you expect people to tell you?". I don't think they've really thought about it, which simply exacerbates the problem that they perceive in the first place.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
SOrry Yahoo has not been letting me copy and paste. It shows in my email when I do it but when it goes to the list it is not there.
I was quoting the last paragraph of Sandra's post.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Support
<<<<
And I have seen confusion and unhappiness in people in other groups who are supportive of anything goes.
I have seen kids in schooll and unhappy parents.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was quoting the last paragraph of Sandra's post.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Support
<<<<
>>>And for me it has here.
And I have seen confusion and unhappiness in people in other groups who are supportive of anything goes.
I have seen kids in schooll and unhappy parents.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
This all reminds me of a lyric from Stephen Sondheim's "Into the Woods":
"You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice."
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice."
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***The ironic thing is in the same post they'd accuse you of doing/saying things I've never seen, while doing it themselves. And for what reason? They could just keep quiet. Or be positive - sending an uplifting message instead. To say the least, I'm still baffled.***
Right. Staying quiet is good! I'd prefer to not post if I'm feeling at all defensive because everything I write will come from that perspective. I have a young pregnant mom in my news feed on facebook. She's engaged to a man who has a lot of issues. He's getting his life together and it can be touch and go. She's very hormonal and reactive right now and he is just being himself, which sometimes isn't great. So what happens is that she'll get upset with him and change her facebook status from engaged to single and write all kinds of upset things on her wall. It doesn't bode well for their upcoming marriage and new child.
I see new unschoolers do that too, write defensive crazy reactionary things in public. It's hard to save face from that. The easier thing to do is to blame others and leave yourself blameless. It's harder to come back and apologize and figure things out. Here's the thing, in order to be the kind of parent that unschooling takes, you NEED to find ways to apologize and figure things out. If your nature is to be reactionary and blameless, you, as a parent, are going to have a very difficult road with your children.
***When they do share something actually pertaining to unschooling, they often make it sound like all one has to do is pull your kid out of school, deschool, and life is easy-peasy. With kids magically doing amazing things. I often wonder what's really going on in their homes.***
I used to think that what people wrote in unschooling discussions was the truth. There are loads of people that do indeed write things exactly how they are. Sometimes though, people will write flowery and fancy things and not even remotely follow what they write, or they write those things because they choose not to write about the utter crap they live with. I don't think people should write about their parenting failures, but I wish more people would be honest in how they unschool. There are some pretty good spin doctors out there.
What I value in unschooling discussions is when people write amazing things that make sense and then I meet them in person and see that they are EXACTLY how they portray themselves online. That thrills me to no end! The fact that I've met people who aren't that way, makes every post by a new comer, suspicious, especially if they start with defensive and crazy and leave and write elsewhere. My hope is that eventually each person will do better for their children than defensive and crazy and that eventually they'll get past that and move onto peaceful and joyful learning.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Right. Staying quiet is good! I'd prefer to not post if I'm feeling at all defensive because everything I write will come from that perspective. I have a young pregnant mom in my news feed on facebook. She's engaged to a man who has a lot of issues. He's getting his life together and it can be touch and go. She's very hormonal and reactive right now and he is just being himself, which sometimes isn't great. So what happens is that she'll get upset with him and change her facebook status from engaged to single and write all kinds of upset things on her wall. It doesn't bode well for their upcoming marriage and new child.
I see new unschoolers do that too, write defensive crazy reactionary things in public. It's hard to save face from that. The easier thing to do is to blame others and leave yourself blameless. It's harder to come back and apologize and figure things out. Here's the thing, in order to be the kind of parent that unschooling takes, you NEED to find ways to apologize and figure things out. If your nature is to be reactionary and blameless, you, as a parent, are going to have a very difficult road with your children.
***When they do share something actually pertaining to unschooling, they often make it sound like all one has to do is pull your kid out of school, deschool, and life is easy-peasy. With kids magically doing amazing things. I often wonder what's really going on in their homes.***
I used to think that what people wrote in unschooling discussions was the truth. There are loads of people that do indeed write things exactly how they are. Sometimes though, people will write flowery and fancy things and not even remotely follow what they write, or they write those things because they choose not to write about the utter crap they live with. I don't think people should write about their parenting failures, but I wish more people would be honest in how they unschool. There are some pretty good spin doctors out there.
What I value in unschooling discussions is when people write amazing things that make sense and then I meet them in person and see that they are EXACTLY how they portray themselves online. That thrills me to no end! The fact that I've met people who aren't that way, makes every post by a new comer, suspicious, especially if they start with defensive and crazy and leave and write elsewhere. My hope is that eventually each person will do better for their children than defensive and crazy and that eventually they'll get past that and move onto peaceful and joyful learning.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I see new unschoolers do that too, write defensive crazy reactionary things in public. It's hard to save face from that. The easier thing to do is to blame others and leave yourself blameless. It's harder to come back and apologize and figure things out. Here's the thing, in order to be the kind of parent that unschooling takes, you NEED to find ways to apologize and figure things out. If your nature is to be reactionary and blameless, you, as a parent, are going to have a very difficult road with your children.***
I'm adding to my own post! Another way to see that, is being mindful. Unschooling takes mindfulness. It takes consideration and thought. If a parent isn't able to be mindful, and consider and think, unschooling will have a VERY hard time flourishing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm adding to my own post! Another way to see that, is being mindful. Unschooling takes mindfulness. It takes consideration and thought. If a parent isn't able to be mindful, and consider and think, unschooling will have a VERY hard time flourishing!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
This may be just a restatement of the full cup metaphor, but thinking that
one is unschooling can be an appalling obstacle to actually unschooling. I
think this is partly what Sandra means when she says (paraphrasing) that
unschooling badly can be worse than school. I think some people might
mistake this for a claim of orthodoxy, which I think indicates their need
for further deschooling.
PS. This would have looked so much more clever if I'd fired it off before
Sandra's last post. Sigh.
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one is unschooling can be an appalling obstacle to actually unschooling. I
think this is partly what Sandra means when she says (paraphrasing) that
unschooling badly can be worse than school. I think some people might
mistake this for a claim of orthodoxy, which I think indicates their need
for further deschooling.
PS. This would have looked so much more clever if I'd fired it off before
Sandra's last post. Sigh.
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think you meant to leave her name in there, but a quick look on Facebook tells me she is a teenager and from another country so perhaps English is not her first language.-=-
AH, yes. Someone else wrote and told me I had accidentally left her name in. I really didn't mean to. So I deleted post #70615, and now that I see Railyuh has quoted the entire post, I'm going to delete that one, too.
I'm really sorry I failed to make it anonymous.
I didn't see that she was a teen. I assumed it was a mom of a younger child.
Sorrry, all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AH, yes. Someone else wrote and told me I had accidentally left her name in. I really didn't mean to. So I deleted post #70615, and now that I see Railyuh has quoted the entire post, I'm going to delete that one, too.
I'm really sorry I failed to make it anonymous.
I didn't see that she was a teen. I assumed it was a mom of a younger child.
Sorrry, all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 22, 2013, at 3:05 PM, Tauna Grinager wrote:
The reason people share the bad stories is because genetically we're social creatures. We draw strength from being connected to each other. When someone's suffering, they need extra strength. When someone's happy, they don't. So, biologically, we respond -- we connect -- when there's suffering in order to support. It's what draws people together when they all suffer a disaster together.
If you're waiting with a stranger and she sighs out, "My daughter dumped out an entire gallon of milk on the floor this morning," you're likely to feel a connection. Even if your child never did exactly that you can relate to what she's feeling, relate to what she went through.
If, instead, she says, "My 4 year old daughter made me a cup of tea today. It was so cute! Of course she spilled half of it carrying it to me, but it was so thoughtful of her!" It might make you smile. You might carry that image with you for a while. But it doesn't feel connecting. Even though most of us have felt that happiness at something delightful. It doesn't connect us. Someone might even think, "My kid never does stuff like that." Or, "My kid shaved the cat this morning." ;-)
When people share their troubles they don't *necessarily* want solutions. They want connection. They want to be re-energized by people understanding, by feeling others have gone through this too. Our kids come to us when they're suffering. It's instinctual. It's a biological need. So that need in humans to connect when we're struggling will always be there, will always draw people together.
BUT just because it's instinct doesn't mean it's the best solution! The problem with connecting through suffering is that if you stop suffering then you're disconnecting from the group. To remain connected you need to keep suffering or relating to the suffering. Connecting through suffering is good for a recharge. It's not a good solution in the long run. But to do better is to lose your group!
And people *do* find that's true. Someone said she had joined a support group for moms of Aspergers kids (I think it was). At first it was wonderful finding all these people who knew what she was going through. But the longer she stayed the more she realized the support was to sustain each other in what they were going through, not support in doing better. To do better would take away what they all shared. It would take away what allowed new mothers to feel that instant connection.
This group -- and other analysis-of-unschooling-ideas groups -- is more like a common interest group. It has more in common with a truck repair group than it does with a mom support group. The truck repair group focuses on exchanging ideas and growing understanding. They connect through that shared interest. The mom support group is about supporting each other through shared difficulties. If they help someone do better they're sabotaging what holds the group together!
It seems like every caring mother should want to put *deliberate effort* into doing better (rather than just fixing problems as they arise). But I think there are two main reasons they don't. First, to get something from a list like this means having a fascination with philosophical discussion and analysis -- which isn't most people. (It's a special interest group.) OR feeling desperate enough that the ideas look attractive.
Second, I think most parents don't have a philosophy. They just do what seems right for each situation. (But with no guiding philosophy, their priorities won't be the same each time.) Their life has it's problems but that seems normal. (And support groups will reinforce that idea!) They don't want a big overhaul. They don't feel that's necessary. What they want is fixes for the little blips that are especially bugging them. They want their kid to stop whining. They want to their kid to eat his broccoli.
What causes problems on this list -- though the warning signs have made it *much* better -- is that people see this active group and are looking for a place where "People understand and accept me!" What they get, though, feels like criticism. From the point of view of their needs it *reads* like, "You're not one of us. You need to fix this this and this to be part of this group. You need to be *perfect*."
Before people jump in they need a sign that says, "Wait! This group might not be what you think it is!" ;-)
Maybe if people could read "This group exists to help people who want to change to examine deeply what's getting in their way and help them understand what will work better and why." (Which I wrote after the recent kerfuffle on Unschooling Basics in my bajilionth attempt at explaining how these kind of lists work. ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So much of what's said is focused on why public school is bad.What they're looking for is connection. They want that feeling of "I've found people who understand and accept me!" It's something they can't find in their face to face life.
> Why government is bad. Why it's okay to slip up once in a while
> and be mean to your kid.
The reason people share the bad stories is because genetically we're social creatures. We draw strength from being connected to each other. When someone's suffering, they need extra strength. When someone's happy, they don't. So, biologically, we respond -- we connect -- when there's suffering in order to support. It's what draws people together when they all suffer a disaster together.
If you're waiting with a stranger and she sighs out, "My daughter dumped out an entire gallon of milk on the floor this morning," you're likely to feel a connection. Even if your child never did exactly that you can relate to what she's feeling, relate to what she went through.
If, instead, she says, "My 4 year old daughter made me a cup of tea today. It was so cute! Of course she spilled half of it carrying it to me, but it was so thoughtful of her!" It might make you smile. You might carry that image with you for a while. But it doesn't feel connecting. Even though most of us have felt that happiness at something delightful. It doesn't connect us. Someone might even think, "My kid never does stuff like that." Or, "My kid shaved the cat this morning." ;-)
When people share their troubles they don't *necessarily* want solutions. They want connection. They want to be re-energized by people understanding, by feeling others have gone through this too. Our kids come to us when they're suffering. It's instinctual. It's a biological need. So that need in humans to connect when we're struggling will always be there, will always draw people together.
BUT just because it's instinct doesn't mean it's the best solution! The problem with connecting through suffering is that if you stop suffering then you're disconnecting from the group. To remain connected you need to keep suffering or relating to the suffering. Connecting through suffering is good for a recharge. It's not a good solution in the long run. But to do better is to lose your group!
And people *do* find that's true. Someone said she had joined a support group for moms of Aspergers kids (I think it was). At first it was wonderful finding all these people who knew what she was going through. But the longer she stayed the more she realized the support was to sustain each other in what they were going through, not support in doing better. To do better would take away what they all shared. It would take away what allowed new mothers to feel that instant connection.
This group -- and other analysis-of-unschooling-ideas groups -- is more like a common interest group. It has more in common with a truck repair group than it does with a mom support group. The truck repair group focuses on exchanging ideas and growing understanding. They connect through that shared interest. The mom support group is about supporting each other through shared difficulties. If they help someone do better they're sabotaging what holds the group together!
It seems like every caring mother should want to put *deliberate effort* into doing better (rather than just fixing problems as they arise). But I think there are two main reasons they don't. First, to get something from a list like this means having a fascination with philosophical discussion and analysis -- which isn't most people. (It's a special interest group.) OR feeling desperate enough that the ideas look attractive.
Second, I think most parents don't have a philosophy. They just do what seems right for each situation. (But with no guiding philosophy, their priorities won't be the same each time.) Their life has it's problems but that seems normal. (And support groups will reinforce that idea!) They don't want a big overhaul. They don't feel that's necessary. What they want is fixes for the little blips that are especially bugging them. They want their kid to stop whining. They want to their kid to eat his broccoli.
What causes problems on this list -- though the warning signs have made it *much* better -- is that people see this active group and are looking for a place where "People understand and accept me!" What they get, though, feels like criticism. From the point of view of their needs it *reads* like, "You're not one of us. You need to fix this this and this to be part of this group. You need to be *perfect*."
Before people jump in they need a sign that says, "Wait! This group might not be what you think it is!" ;-)
Maybe if people could read "This group exists to help people who want to change to examine deeply what's getting in their way and help them understand what will work better and why." (Which I wrote after the recent kerfuffle on Unschooling Basics in my bajilionth attempt at explaining how these kind of lists work. ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- If they help someone do better they're sabotaging what holds the group together!-=-
Yesterday someone sent me a note, concerning the general situation of attack and commiseration that comes up every couple of years: "I wonder if there isn't an aspect of some people are trying to make money off of unschooling and they are upset that you are in fact giving away for free what they are trying to sell."
In that recent discussion (which I wasn't part of, but which kept popping up on my facebook newsfeed), a magazine owner wrote, "The point is that similar efforts towards help and support must, somehow, be extended to all families that are seeking information and a community while they explore new ways to live and learn with children. I try to do my bit, but my magazine isn't free; people shouldn't have to spend money in order not to be bullied or abused. "
First, saying it's bullying and abuse to try to keep a discussion positive and on topic is, well, bullying and abuse. Someone who's not IN any of the philosophical discussions and never has been, but who has been selling magazines (not always successfully) is telling anyone who will listen that if support is to be given, it must be offered equally to all, to welcome all people into the "community."
If all are in a community, it's not a community anymore. If this discussion welcomed everyone equally, regardless of their beliefs or posting habits, then what would be the difference between in here and nothing at all? Or between in here and the comments on a youtube video?
That argument on facebook (which I was not in) started (by its own admission) over frustration about an unschooling discussion that was unmoderated.
I have no idea what that lack of moderation brought about. But the same discussion went from dismay at lack of moderation to dismay at the effects of moderation. Maybe at that point I should've stopped reading, but it seemed so much to be about me and this particular group that I wanted to see how it ended. :-) [It won't ever end, really.]
If we can be made to look ogre-esque, it might bring some magazine subscriptions, I guess. And the magazine says free help is from ogres, and that nobody knows more about unschooling than anyone else, and (it's going to say, says that source) that "radical unschooling" is redundant (meaning that all unschooling is radical, politically, I'm guessing it will say). And the way to stay a part of that group is to keep paying the subscription price.
I like magazines. I don't like for magazine editors to tell others (falsely) what it is I'm doing, and then tell people I shouldn't be doing it.
I like paper magazines. I don't like online magazines. If people are going to wait two or three months to read something that was already written and could have been available electronically earlier, it seems like an impediment to the flow of information, rather than a conduit worth paying for. But some people want the convenience of pre-chosen information. I suppose that makes sense, too. I like Retronaut and Shorpy.
http://www.shorpy.com
http://www.retronaut.com
Oh, that's what I like! Talking about unschooling a while, and then sending people out into real-world resources they can get excited about or share with their families.
Sandra
Yesterday someone sent me a note, concerning the general situation of attack and commiseration that comes up every couple of years: "I wonder if there isn't an aspect of some people are trying to make money off of unschooling and they are upset that you are in fact giving away for free what they are trying to sell."
In that recent discussion (which I wasn't part of, but which kept popping up on my facebook newsfeed), a magazine owner wrote, "The point is that similar efforts towards help and support must, somehow, be extended to all families that are seeking information and a community while they explore new ways to live and learn with children. I try to do my bit, but my magazine isn't free; people shouldn't have to spend money in order not to be bullied or abused. "
First, saying it's bullying and abuse to try to keep a discussion positive and on topic is, well, bullying and abuse. Someone who's not IN any of the philosophical discussions and never has been, but who has been selling magazines (not always successfully) is telling anyone who will listen that if support is to be given, it must be offered equally to all, to welcome all people into the "community."
If all are in a community, it's not a community anymore. If this discussion welcomed everyone equally, regardless of their beliefs or posting habits, then what would be the difference between in here and nothing at all? Or between in here and the comments on a youtube video?
That argument on facebook (which I was not in) started (by its own admission) over frustration about an unschooling discussion that was unmoderated.
I have no idea what that lack of moderation brought about. But the same discussion went from dismay at lack of moderation to dismay at the effects of moderation. Maybe at that point I should've stopped reading, but it seemed so much to be about me and this particular group that I wanted to see how it ended. :-) [It won't ever end, really.]
If we can be made to look ogre-esque, it might bring some magazine subscriptions, I guess. And the magazine says free help is from ogres, and that nobody knows more about unschooling than anyone else, and (it's going to say, says that source) that "radical unschooling" is redundant (meaning that all unschooling is radical, politically, I'm guessing it will say). And the way to stay a part of that group is to keep paying the subscription price.
I like magazines. I don't like for magazine editors to tell others (falsely) what it is I'm doing, and then tell people I shouldn't be doing it.
I like paper magazines. I don't like online magazines. If people are going to wait two or three months to read something that was already written and could have been available electronically earlier, it seems like an impediment to the flow of information, rather than a conduit worth paying for. But some people want the convenience of pre-chosen information. I suppose that makes sense, too. I like Retronaut and Shorpy.
http://www.shorpy.com
http://www.retronaut.com
Oh, that's what I like! Talking about unschooling a while, and then sending people out into real-world resources they can get excited about or share with their families.
Sandra
Robin Bentley
Joyce, this is great!
Radical Unschooling Info (with a suggestion that if you want a quick
fix, this isn't the place)?
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It seems like every caring mother should want to put *deliberateI wonder if it could go in "read before you post" pinned entry at
> effort* into doing better (rather than just fixing problems as they
> arise). But I think there are two main reasons they don't. First, to
> get something from a list like this means having a fascination with
> philosophical discussion and analysis -- which isn't most people.
> (It's a special interest group.) OR feeling desperate enough that
> the ideas look attractive.
>
> Second, I think most parents don't have a philosophy. They just do
> what seems right for each situation. (But with no guiding
> philosophy, their priorities won't be the same each time.) Their
> life has it's problems but that seems normal. (And support groups
> will reinforce that idea!) They don't want a big overhaul. They
> don't feel that's necessary. What they want is fixes for the little
> blips that are especially bugging them. They want their kid to stop
> whining. They want to their kid to eat his broccoli.
Radical Unschooling Info (with a suggestion that if you want a quick
fix, this isn't the place)?
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
People bring their own experiences and beliefs to every discussion. Sometimes I forget that two (or more) people can read the same words, or participate in the same activity, or watch the same events unfolding, but still come out at the end with such widely different conclusions and responses.
I remember when James and I went to a consultation with our Ob/Gyn. I had a lot of questions for her because I had been reading about natural childbirth and the barriers that hospitalization and modern medicine place in the way. Her answers horrified me - she basically said every single thing that was a red flag in the Bradley (and related) literature. I was shaking and almost crying when we left the office.
When we got outside, James turned to me with a huge smile and said, "That was great!" He had heard nothing to distress him.
Even when we focus on absolute clarity and simple language, there are misunderstandings. People have different reactions to the same stories, not always what the storyteller might intend. Sometimes people seem willfully blind - that's cognitive dissonance at work I guess.
So now there is all this stuff on Facebook. People talking about hard liners and "bullies" and complaining about the definition of unschooling being rigidly defined.
People grumping about being advised to read more information. People who claim not to be new, complaining on behalf of people who actually ARE new.
People wanting credit for being unschoolers, for living unschooling, and describing their unschooling lives - which sound nice, of course. (But at the same time claiming that labels don't matter, they don't care about the label of "unschooler".)
People determinedly assert that they know all about unschooling, they've been reading at all the sites, on all the lists, in all the groups, that they fully understand how unschooling works, they know all about what is discussed here - what has been said repeatedly over the years. That nevertheless they disagree with how unschooling is defined.
Then they blog things like this about those other Radical Unschoolers:
"They want their child to be able to make choices, discover circumstances, and come to conclusions completely on their own."
So all the reading, all the discussions, all the posts, all the YEARS of archives, and still some people come to the conclusion that what we espouse is the *exact opposite* of everything that is said and elucidated here. Or at least what we thought we said....
*sigh*
Misrepresentation or misunderstanding?
From the same blog:
"But maybe those places should be more upfront with what they are about. I know some have info and rules posted but obviously they are not clear enough about it because I've been seeing more and more people who've felt hurt and bullied after seeking guidance on those sites."
If someone can read for YEARS by their own admission, and still fundamentally misunderstand some of the core ideas, perhaps it is futile to expect anyone newly reading the group guidelines to understand them the first few times, no matter how clear or upfront we might believe them to be.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
I remember when James and I went to a consultation with our Ob/Gyn. I had a lot of questions for her because I had been reading about natural childbirth and the barriers that hospitalization and modern medicine place in the way. Her answers horrified me - she basically said every single thing that was a red flag in the Bradley (and related) literature. I was shaking and almost crying when we left the office.
When we got outside, James turned to me with a huge smile and said, "That was great!" He had heard nothing to distress him.
Even when we focus on absolute clarity and simple language, there are misunderstandings. People have different reactions to the same stories, not always what the storyteller might intend. Sometimes people seem willfully blind - that's cognitive dissonance at work I guess.
So now there is all this stuff on Facebook. People talking about hard liners and "bullies" and complaining about the definition of unschooling being rigidly defined.
People grumping about being advised to read more information. People who claim not to be new, complaining on behalf of people who actually ARE new.
People wanting credit for being unschoolers, for living unschooling, and describing their unschooling lives - which sound nice, of course. (But at the same time claiming that labels don't matter, they don't care about the label of "unschooler".)
People determinedly assert that they know all about unschooling, they've been reading at all the sites, on all the lists, in all the groups, that they fully understand how unschooling works, they know all about what is discussed here - what has been said repeatedly over the years. That nevertheless they disagree with how unschooling is defined.
Then they blog things like this about those other Radical Unschoolers:
"They want their child to be able to make choices, discover circumstances, and come to conclusions completely on their own."
So all the reading, all the discussions, all the posts, all the YEARS of archives, and still some people come to the conclusion that what we espouse is the *exact opposite* of everything that is said and elucidated here. Or at least what we thought we said....
*sigh*
Misrepresentation or misunderstanding?
From the same blog:
"But maybe those places should be more upfront with what they are about. I know some have info and rules posted but obviously they are not clear enough about it because I've been seeing more and more people who've felt hurt and bullied after seeking guidance on those sites."
If someone can read for YEARS by their own admission, and still fundamentally misunderstand some of the core ideas, perhaps it is futile to expect anyone newly reading the group guidelines to understand them the first few times, no matter how clear or upfront we might believe them to be.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> > What causes problems on this list -- though the warning signs have made it *much* better -- is that people see this active group and are looking for a place where "People understand and accept me!" What they get, though, feels like criticism. From the point of view of their needs it *reads* like, "You're not one of us. You need to fix this this and this to be part of this group. You need to be *perfect*."
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-If someone can read for YEARS by their own admission, and still fundamentally misunderstand some of the core ideas, perhaps it is futile to expect anyone newly reading the group guidelines to understand them the first few times, no matter how clear or upfront we might believe them to be. -=-
Many people claim to read for years without actually doing it.
Many people "read" school-style: eyes left to right, down a bit, left to right, no comprehension, no thought.
If someone reads J0yce's site that way, or mine, or this discussion, it's not because the writing wasn't carefully presented.
When someone is reactionary and dishonest, why assume that their "own admission" reflects an honest truth?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Many people claim to read for years without actually doing it.
Many people "read" school-style: eyes left to right, down a bit, left to right, no comprehension, no thought.
If someone reads J0yce's site that way, or mine, or this discussion, it's not because the writing wasn't carefully presented.
When someone is reactionary and dishonest, why assume that their "own admission" reflects an honest truth?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***So now there is all this stuff on Facebook. People talking about hard liners and "bullies" and complaining about the definition of unschooling being rigidly defined.***
You know, it bothers me a lot that people keep saying they are being bullied or that they feel bullied. I wonder if any one of those people has ever been actually bullied. It isn't at all what happens on a facebook unschooling group. For one, each person can freely walk away from their computer, or open a new tab or hang with their kids. For another, being bullied is really really awful and can cause a person to commit suicide. I know a kid that did last year because of being bullied. My sister was bullied in high school. Mercilessly. So bad that she changed schools to get away.
I don't think a single unschooling person who has been writing for years and years about unschooling even comes close to what is considered bullying. I've seen some of the same people complaining about being bullied, sending mean bully like messages to the people they think are being bullies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You know, it bothers me a lot that people keep saying they are being bullied or that they feel bullied. I wonder if any one of those people has ever been actually bullied. It isn't at all what happens on a facebook unschooling group. For one, each person can freely walk away from their computer, or open a new tab or hang with their kids. For another, being bullied is really really awful and can cause a person to commit suicide. I know a kid that did last year because of being bullied. My sister was bullied in high school. Mercilessly. So bad that she changed schools to get away.
I don't think a single unschooling person who has been writing for years and years about unschooling even comes close to what is considered bullying. I've seen some of the same people complaining about being bullied, sending mean bully like messages to the people they think are being bullies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cara Barlow
> I don't think a single unschooling person who has been writing for yearsThat's what I've been thinking about this whole thing. The people who are
> and years about unschooling even comes close to what is considered
> bullying. I've seen some of the same people complaining about being
> bullied, sending mean bully like messages to the people they think are
> being bullies.
>
>
grumping and whining in that FB conversation are saying things that closely
remind me of what I remember (from my school days) of b*tchy middle school
girls say about each other. It's not bullying, but it's ridiculous and
mean-spirited. If they really thought all the things they are professing
about being kind and welcoming and everyone should follow their own path,
their conversation would have a whole different tone. Or they wouldn't even
be having the conversation.
I've been reading Always Learning for a few years and running a local
unschooling FB group for about a year. I seriously think there are some
people who join groups to stir things up in a negative way and/or enjoy
having a scapegoat. As a moderator it's possible to change the tone or
redirect the conversation, but since this is happening on an individual's
FB status update and she hasn't quashed it, it's turned into a giant
pile-on. Gah.
I have a feeling a lot of us are seeing this for what it is. Hopefully
those involved will come to their senses and issue some apologies.
Best wishes, Cara Barlow
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cara Barlow
Ha! There's an article in today's NYT about workplace complaining that I
think relates.
*"We all know that certain people are temperamentally disposed to complain,
and there is an extreme version of this type, Professor Kowalski says: �the
help-rejecting complainer.� Work becomes the focus of all the wrongs that
have been done to that person.*
*�They complain incessantly,� she says, �and you�re not going to offer them
any solution that they�ve not already thought of.�*
*These employees are at high risk of being fired. They can help foment a
wave of complaining that spreads quickly as other workers become more aware
of their own dissatisfaction, she says, causing morale to plummet. Other
employees may find it useful to tune out this type of employee or redirect
the conversation away from the complaint, she says."*
<
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/jobs/how-offices-become-complaint-departments.html?src=recg
think relates.
*"We all know that certain people are temperamentally disposed to complain,
and there is an extreme version of this type, Professor Kowalski says: �the
help-rejecting complainer.� Work becomes the focus of all the wrongs that
have been done to that person.*
*�They complain incessantly,� she says, �and you�re not going to offer them
any solution that they�ve not already thought of.�*
*These employees are at high risk of being fired. They can help foment a
wave of complaining that spreads quickly as other workers become more aware
of their own dissatisfaction, she says, causing morale to plummet. Other
employees may find it useful to tune out this type of employee or redirect
the conversation away from the complaint, she says."*
<
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/jobs/how-offices-become-complaint-departments.html?src=recg
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 24, 2013, at 1:47 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
Bully:
"Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants."
"a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker."
If a guest is being rude and the host says "I'll throw you out if you don't stop," it *should* be called being a good host! not bullying but the host *is* using greater power to intimidate someone weaker into doing what the host wants.
If someone wants to express their ideas on the dangers of TV here and Sandra says stop AND she has the power to eject them -- as opposed to, for instance, you saying stop -- it does fit the definition.
The root of the problems people complain about *isn't* that they've perceived they've been bullied. The root is their misunderstanding of the purpose of the list. They don't realize that critiquing ideas, helping people clarify their understanding of unschooling (as defined here) is the purpose of the list.
If someone punches you in the face on the street, that's assault. If someone punches you in the face in a boxing ring, that's good. The problem isn't the punch. The problem is mistaking a boxing ring for the street and then getting angry when someone punches you in the face ;-) The problem is this "boxing ring" looks exactly like a street. And there's no effective way to make it look different or explain the difference for someone who has no concept that boxing rings can look exactly like streets.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't think a single unschooling person who has beenThe definitions of bully don't specifically say it only applies to a situation where someone can't walk away. If it did, and since your sister was able to transfer schools, it would mean she wasn't bullied.
> writing for years and years about unschooling even comes
> close to what is considered bullying.
Bully:
"Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants."
"a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker."
If a guest is being rude and the host says "I'll throw you out if you don't stop," it *should* be called being a good host! not bullying but the host *is* using greater power to intimidate someone weaker into doing what the host wants.
If someone wants to express their ideas on the dangers of TV here and Sandra says stop AND she has the power to eject them -- as opposed to, for instance, you saying stop -- it does fit the definition.
The root of the problems people complain about *isn't* that they've perceived they've been bullied. The root is their misunderstanding of the purpose of the list. They don't realize that critiquing ideas, helping people clarify their understanding of unschooling (as defined here) is the purpose of the list.
If someone punches you in the face on the street, that's assault. If someone punches you in the face in a boxing ring, that's good. The problem isn't the punch. The problem is mistaking a boxing ring for the street and then getting angry when someone punches you in the face ;-) The problem is this "boxing ring" looks exactly like a street. And there's no effective way to make it look different or explain the difference for someone who has no concept that boxing rings can look exactly like streets.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-You know, it bothers me a lot that people keep saying they are being bullied or that they feel bullied. I wonder if any one of those people has ever been actually bullied. -=-
There have been times when the reason a mom got angry, in a discussion, is that she described the way in which she was harsh with her kids (spanking, grounding, shaming, limiting with mean reasons and false justifications) and when people on the list pointed that out, she started saying we were being mean to her.
If saying "You can be nicer to your children and have great results!" is called bullying, that's evidence that the mom is needy in ways that her children will ALSO be needy, if she doesn't choose to break that cycle of adults being comfortable at the expense of children, or adults being comforted no matter how they're treating children.
Twice people who were making their children cry, and were questioned about why they would do that, when there were so many peaceful alternatives, wrote (to me privately in one case, and maybe both) and said that what she had read in the discussion had made her cry. REALLY!? I didn't feel horrible about that. I hope after she went away, she thought about it and decided to stop making her child cry, which would have helped both of them for life, and the grandchildren, too.
We NEVER ask people when they first come around whether they spank, what their religion is, whether they're married, or even whether theyr'e unschooling. The assumption is that they will read the introductory material before or right after they join a group. The assumption is that they are parents who want information about unschooling.
When information is volunteered, it has been put out for discussion in an unschooling light. We don't have another light here; all the bulbs are unschooling lights. :-)
Sandra
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There have been times when the reason a mom got angry, in a discussion, is that she described the way in which she was harsh with her kids (spanking, grounding, shaming, limiting with mean reasons and false justifications) and when people on the list pointed that out, she started saying we were being mean to her.
If saying "You can be nicer to your children and have great results!" is called bullying, that's evidence that the mom is needy in ways that her children will ALSO be needy, if she doesn't choose to break that cycle of adults being comfortable at the expense of children, or adults being comforted no matter how they're treating children.
Twice people who were making their children cry, and were questioned about why they would do that, when there were so many peaceful alternatives, wrote (to me privately in one case, and maybe both) and said that what she had read in the discussion had made her cry. REALLY!? I didn't feel horrible about that. I hope after she went away, she thought about it and decided to stop making her child cry, which would have helped both of them for life, and the grandchildren, too.
We NEVER ask people when they first come around whether they spank, what their religion is, whether they're married, or even whether theyr'e unschooling. The assumption is that they will read the introductory material before or right after they join a group. The assumption is that they are parents who want information about unschooling.
When information is volunteered, it has been put out for discussion in an unschooling light. We don't have another light here; all the bulbs are unschooling lights. :-)
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-*These employees are at high risk of being fired. They can help foment a
wave of complaining that spreads quickly as other workers become more aware
of their own dissatisfaction, she says, causing morale to plummet. Other
employees may find it useful to tune out this type of employee or redirect
the conversation away from the complaint, she says."*-=-
Thanks for bringing that, Cara!
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
I might add that link there.
Negativity is contagious and cancels out joy and hope. Some people are just casually negative without realizing it. Their first response to anything is likely to be derisive. It's like a disease, and they infect their friends and relatives. Eye rolling, tongue-clucking, dramatic sighs... It's emotional littering. Save them for emergencies. :-)
Sandra
wave of complaining that spreads quickly as other workers become more aware
of their own dissatisfaction, she says, causing morale to plummet. Other
employees may find it useful to tune out this type of employee or redirect
the conversation away from the complaint, she says."*-=-
Thanks for bringing that, Cara!
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
I might add that link there.
Negativity is contagious and cancels out joy and hope. Some people are just casually negative without realizing it. Their first response to anything is likely to be derisive. It's like a disease, and they infect their friends and relatives. Eye rolling, tongue-clucking, dramatic sighs... It's emotional littering. Save them for emergencies. :-)
Sandra
Meredith
> I've been seeing more and more people who've felt hurt and bullied after seeking guidance on those sites."*************
That's an interesting look at how people can perceive things which aren't factually true - like the surprisingly common claim in some circles that the world (or just the US) had become more violent when statistics show the opposite. On the Yahoo groups, there's far, far less acrimony than their used to be. Some of that is no doubt due to lower volume - but the lower volume is also due to the fact that there's less drama. I was seeing the drama step down before facebook took off, as list owners and moderators started to learn how to keep things more peaceful - it took some time! A lot of the drama has moved to facebook and I expect to see the same sort of process there - over time page owners will figure out how to create more peaceful spaces. It might happen faster - it certainly will on some pages because people are starting out with more skills from years (decades now) of online communication so the learning curve is shorter and more specific to the network rather than the overall concept of online group discussion.
>"But maybe those places should be more upfront with what they are about. I know some have info and rules posted but obviously they are not clear enough about it"***********
I was amazed and fascinated when Sandra first changed the home page on Always Learning to begin with the words "do not post" in all caps. That to people who say the list needs a warning label! I've been watching to see if it changes anything, and I don't think it does (although I may do something similar on Unschooling Basics, just for the "so there" factor). What keeps down the level of drama is moderators refusing to engage in drama and shutting people down when they get hostile. There are venues where people get mean and bully others - every one I've seen so far has had an "inclusive" policy and no moderation beyond a spam filter. The groups and lists which have grown less "inclusive" over the years have also seen a significant drop in the sort of "mob behavior" which whips up on the "inclusive" groups.
In face to face groups, there's also a difference between "inclusive" groups versus groups with a specific focus, although it's not quite the same as online. I put inclusive in quotes because it's really a misnomer - it's a stated goal but one which isn't ever achieved because the very nature of an "inclusive" group leaves some people feeling unsafe, disengranchised, shut out, bullied, silenced. I'm generally not comfortable in "inclusive" groups - I'm almost always the odd-ball and "inclusive" groups favor people who fit in. So I'd rather be in a specific group where the "fitting in" part is obvious - the group exists for people who all fit within certain parameters. That's why radical unschooling discussions exist at all - because so many of us have had That experience with "inclusive" homeschooling groups which don't actually include us at all.
---Meredith
Deb Lewis
I hadn’t see the Facebook discussion and didn’t go looking for it. <g> Last night it came up in my news feed. I read much of it. One or two people wrote, more than once, about being rejected, outcast, or some version of that. For some people everything is personal.
I asked a woman I know who is recently divorced what kinds of things comforted her and she said she was comforted when people said her ex husband was an asshole. There are people who don’t want to think beyond what they feel. I suppose very few of those kinds of people will ever feel comfortable on a discussion list or forum.
I made the mistake of complaining on a friend’s wall at Facebook. (An in person life long friend.) I don’t usually complain, it was a moment of weakness.<g> I was frustrated about a problem with my mother. People I didn’t know, who have never met me and who could not possibly know what kind of person I am, posted messages of “support.” “You’re such a good daughter.” It made me feel a little sick. I pointed out that they couldn’t know what kind of daughter I was, that the reason my mother was agitated might be because I was poking her with pins. The “support” kept coming. It was a good reminder for me, a fresh appreciation for clear thinking.
I don’t know what all makes a person want that kind of thing. Lots of insecurity, lots of need, a dose of delusion. I’m glad Joyce finds it intriguing and is willing to try to explain, again and again, the difference between help and support. My strong inclination to say “Use your fucking brain!” would rightly be considered wrong. <g>
Karen James wrote a lovely post at that discussion about AlwaysLearning. I wish I’d saved it. She compared her family life to a work of art, unschooling to her paintbrush, and said she shares her picture and welcomes ideas on how to make it better. She said it more beautifully. <g>
I very much appreciate AlwaysLearning and the kindness, wisdom and dedication of Sandra, and the other thoughtful people writing here.
Deb Lewis
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I asked a woman I know who is recently divorced what kinds of things comforted her and she said she was comforted when people said her ex husband was an asshole. There are people who don’t want to think beyond what they feel. I suppose very few of those kinds of people will ever feel comfortable on a discussion list or forum.
I made the mistake of complaining on a friend’s wall at Facebook. (An in person life long friend.) I don’t usually complain, it was a moment of weakness.<g> I was frustrated about a problem with my mother. People I didn’t know, who have never met me and who could not possibly know what kind of person I am, posted messages of “support.” “You’re such a good daughter.” It made me feel a little sick. I pointed out that they couldn’t know what kind of daughter I was, that the reason my mother was agitated might be because I was poking her with pins. The “support” kept coming. It was a good reminder for me, a fresh appreciation for clear thinking.
I don’t know what all makes a person want that kind of thing. Lots of insecurity, lots of need, a dose of delusion. I’m glad Joyce finds it intriguing and is willing to try to explain, again and again, the difference between help and support. My strong inclination to say “Use your fucking brain!” would rightly be considered wrong. <g>
Karen James wrote a lovely post at that discussion about AlwaysLearning. I wish I’d saved it. She compared her family life to a work of art, unschooling to her paintbrush, and said she shares her picture and welcomes ideas on how to make it better. She said it more beautifully. <g>
I very much appreciate AlwaysLearning and the kindness, wisdom and dedication of Sandra, and the other thoughtful people writing here.
Deb Lewis
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