Philosophical question regarding "teaching/learning" character traits
Hael
One of the things I had been pondering before considering the unschooling approach (we have been homeschooling for years) was devoting part of our "school day" to exploring specific character traits -- maybe one a week -- with my step-son.
I had been trying to come up with ways to instill such ideas in him -- through quotations and readings -- and I needed a place to start, to suggest some character traits I could get on board with. (Again, this was before I began to understand the ideas behind unschooling, particularly the concept of not wishing "to instill" anything.)
At that time, I found a website / organization, called Character First, that lists 49 character qualities, and gives a short description of each, and maybe a quote.
For example, "Tolerance vs. Prejudice," and the quote offered is "We should look to the mind, and not to the outward appearance." Aesop
I thought these might offer glimpses into ways of being, and then we could explore it a little, then just have it in the back of our mind for the week, and hopefully longer. It wouldn't be a lecture or anything lengthy.
It would be part vocabulary-building, and part quotation-reading, and part thinking about what kind of person we want to become.
I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?
But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling, I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without coercion, without "making" them?
It's not a school subject. It's something that our family values and puts to use on a daily basis. Some of these things ARE "lessons" we teach as part of working together. We run a family business together, and there are some "rights and wrongs" about running our business -- things that are taught, handed down from generation to generation, not because the child asked about it, but because we rely on their work and their contribution, and because we want them to learn how to treat customers, how to work in ways that help and don't harm, how to increase enjoyment in working with others. And we do engage their thinking in passing along these ideas -- we don't just say, "You have to be courteous to customers." We have discussions about our way of life, and about what types of behavior tend to make our business more successful, our products more appealing, and what makes someone in our business a "happy" person, versus someone who seems to be unhappy. We also make it clear that they are not, obviously, required to be part of this business long-term...but it is an option, and these ideas are transferable.
Of course, as I've been reading so many wonderful posts about the importance of putting relationships before material things or control issues such as orderliness, etc., I keep wondering whether exposing my children to some of these values is not the same as "forcing" them to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject that is irrelevant to them at the time.
I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.
My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on?
Is the main idea here to try not to put our own personal opinions out there as the only right way? I often couch our discussions in terms of, "Some people think..." or "some people believe..." and we often say things like, "but no one really knows for sure," or "there are a lot of other equally intelligent people who think..." etc.
I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas out there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or embrace one day and reject the next.
Should I be undertaking this "character" study out of my own interest? Posting quotes because I happen to like them, and see what comes of it? Should I "strew" books that happen to explore certain character traits or ideas and see what kind of discussions occur?
Love to hear thoughts and ideas on this topic.
Deb
I had been trying to come up with ways to instill such ideas in him -- through quotations and readings -- and I needed a place to start, to suggest some character traits I could get on board with. (Again, this was before I began to understand the ideas behind unschooling, particularly the concept of not wishing "to instill" anything.)
At that time, I found a website / organization, called Character First, that lists 49 character qualities, and gives a short description of each, and maybe a quote.
For example, "Tolerance vs. Prejudice," and the quote offered is "We should look to the mind, and not to the outward appearance." Aesop
I thought these might offer glimpses into ways of being, and then we could explore it a little, then just have it in the back of our mind for the week, and hopefully longer. It wouldn't be a lecture or anything lengthy.
It would be part vocabulary-building, and part quotation-reading, and part thinking about what kind of person we want to become.
I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?
But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling, I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without coercion, without "making" them?
It's not a school subject. It's something that our family values and puts to use on a daily basis. Some of these things ARE "lessons" we teach as part of working together. We run a family business together, and there are some "rights and wrongs" about running our business -- things that are taught, handed down from generation to generation, not because the child asked about it, but because we rely on their work and their contribution, and because we want them to learn how to treat customers, how to work in ways that help and don't harm, how to increase enjoyment in working with others. And we do engage their thinking in passing along these ideas -- we don't just say, "You have to be courteous to customers." We have discussions about our way of life, and about what types of behavior tend to make our business more successful, our products more appealing, and what makes someone in our business a "happy" person, versus someone who seems to be unhappy. We also make it clear that they are not, obviously, required to be part of this business long-term...but it is an option, and these ideas are transferable.
Of course, as I've been reading so many wonderful posts about the importance of putting relationships before material things or control issues such as orderliness, etc., I keep wondering whether exposing my children to some of these values is not the same as "forcing" them to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject that is irrelevant to them at the time.
I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.
My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on?
Is the main idea here to try not to put our own personal opinions out there as the only right way? I often couch our discussions in terms of, "Some people think..." or "some people believe..." and we often say things like, "but no one really knows for sure," or "there are a lot of other equally intelligent people who think..." etc.
I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas out there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or embrace one day and reject the next.
Should I be undertaking this "character" study out of my own interest? Posting quotes because I happen to like them, and see what comes of it? Should I "strew" books that happen to explore certain character traits or ideas and see what kind of discussions occur?
Love to hear thoughts and ideas on this topic.
Deb
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:46 PM, Hael wrote:
worksheets can look like they're doing the same thing, but if one is
doing it for fun and the other is doing it because it's required,
they really aren't doing the same thing.
One of my suggestions for new unschoolers who are wrapped up in
learning looking like doing textbooks is that unschooling can look
like watching all the James Bond movies in order and talking about
the changes in attitudes towards women, how the bad guys and their
goals changed, film making styles and so forth.
What you're suggesting above *could* be similar. If it's something
you wanted to do for yourself, if it's something your children
thought sounded intriguing.
But if you have an agenda of putting a set of information into their
heads because you think it's important, it will interfere with their
free exploration.
It might help if you turned it around. What if your husband had
stumbled across Character First and decided he wanted to devote part
of his time with you exploring character traits because he'd been
trying to come up with ideas of ways to instill those in you.
Wouldn't it feel insulting? Wouldn't it feel like he was judging you
as falling short of his ideals for you? Wouldn't it feel like he was
trying to mold you into something he could think better of?
On the other hand, if he'd stumbled across it and said, "Hey, this is
cool," and shared the parts that fascinated him with you with no
hidden agenda other than coolness and interest, that's what
unschooling can look like. It could even be unschooling if he asked
if you wanted to explore it with you. Assuming your husband's only
agenda is spending time with you on something you both might enjoy
then it's no different than asking if you'd like to go to a movie
with him.
side effect of living rather than a goal you're headed towards.
You can't make him think about what kind of person he wants to
become. He might though, as a side effect, think about who he wants
to be if the discussion were about how other people became who they
were and about how you became who you are and how you continue to
grow and change. *And* he was enjoying the discussions.
to be dictator of the world will have different values than someone
who wants to take their doctoring skills to the slums of India.
But we don't do our kids a favor by suggesting that right and wrong
are all subjective. Part of unschooling is helping kids navigate the
world in safe and respectful ways. So it's practicing kindness to
them to help them find solutions that are kind and respectful.
using those values in your interactions with them, in how you treat
them, in how you help them solve problems.
One of the problems with conventional parenting is that it blinds
people to how horribly disrespectful and unkind it causes parents to
be toward children. And by the time they're teens kids can be nasty
and rude and doing bad things (because they're fighting control). So
it seems like passing on values is hard and uncertain.
But it isn't. While we can't ensure our kids will have the same set
of values we do, kids who are treated kindly, respectfully, who
aren't lied to and so on, drink all those in and return them. They
*value* being treated that way.
learning and being taught if you don't see what people pick up from
life as lessons.
It can be argued that teaching and lessons and learning and modeling
are all the same, but that emphasizes their similarities. What's
important when beginning unschooling is focusing on their differences
because the differences are profound. For a learner, there's a huge
internal difference between being made to read a book and reading a
book they picked up purely out of interest. There's a huge internal
difference between someone trying to move another person from A to B
(from fuzzy values to honesty) and someone using honesty in their
dealings with that person and helping them find honest ways to deal
with others.
This and the links should be helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/teaching/
for values. It's not "just because that's who I want you to be".
It's not wrong to want something for our kids. I want my daughter to
be kind. But it's going to damage our relationship if I try to make
her be a kind person. On the other hand, if I'm kind to her, if I
help her get what she wants while helping her avoid being unkind to
others, she will see and feel the value of being kind, she will see
and value what will be lost by being unkind.
There's a difference in how values are absorbed if they're used as a
tool and when they're imposed to change someone's character.
information is less important than the interaction between you.
you're a person he values, your opinion will count for more, but
that's not something parents can help! (Nor should they try.) It's
good to be aware that we have influence over them and to avoid
abusing it. But I wouldn't fear that sharing your opinion is the same
as not giving him the freedom to choose.
don't know that?
marathon. It could get in the way of unschooling if you have goals
for what you'd like them to get out of it. I think it's a red flag
that you have a goal if you want to strew books about the character
traits. It's like a trick to get them to follow your path. (If your
husband was studying something he wanted you to study too, wouldn't
finding books left out feel manipulative? IT's because the books are
about what he wants for you not help in you find things you want for
you.)
Use strewing for things you think they might enjoy. Keep the focus on
them rather than where you would like them to go.
If they do show interest in what you're doing, then a couple of books
would be in keeping with that.
Joyce
> I thought these might offer glimpses into ways of being, and thenUnschooling is more in the why than in the what. Two kids doing math
> we could explore it a little, then just have it in the back of our
> mind for the week, and hopefully longer. It wouldn't be a lecture
> or anything lengthy.
worksheets can look like they're doing the same thing, but if one is
doing it for fun and the other is doing it because it's required,
they really aren't doing the same thing.
One of my suggestions for new unschoolers who are wrapped up in
learning looking like doing textbooks is that unschooling can look
like watching all the James Bond movies in order and talking about
the changes in attitudes towards women, how the bad guys and their
goals changed, film making styles and so forth.
What you're suggesting above *could* be similar. If it's something
you wanted to do for yourself, if it's something your children
thought sounded intriguing.
But if you have an agenda of putting a set of information into their
heads because you think it's important, it will interfere with their
free exploration.
It might help if you turned it around. What if your husband had
stumbled across Character First and decided he wanted to devote part
of his time with you exploring character traits because he'd been
trying to come up with ideas of ways to instill those in you.
Wouldn't it feel insulting? Wouldn't it feel like he was judging you
as falling short of his ideals for you? Wouldn't it feel like he was
trying to mold you into something he could think better of?
On the other hand, if he'd stumbled across it and said, "Hey, this is
cool," and shared the parts that fascinated him with you with no
hidden agenda other than coolness and interest, that's what
unschooling can look like. It could even be unschooling if he asked
if you wanted to explore it with you. Assuming your husband's only
agenda is spending time with you on something you both might enjoy
then it's no different than asking if you'd like to go to a movie
with him.
> It would be part vocabulary-building, and part quotation-reading,It will help to drop the idea of vocabulary building. See that as a
> and part thinking about what kind of person we want to become.
side effect of living rather than a goal you're headed towards.
You can't make him think about what kind of person he wants to
become. He might though, as a side effect, think about who he wants
to be if the discussion were about how other people became who they
were and about how you became who you are and how you continue to
grow and change. *And* he was enjoying the discussions.
> I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling --Wellllll, it depends on what someone's goals are. Someone who wants
> and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what
> is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?
to be dictator of the world will have different values than someone
who wants to take their doctoring skills to the slums of India.
But we don't do our kids a favor by suggesting that right and wrong
are all subjective. Part of unschooling is helping kids navigate the
world in safe and respectful ways. So it's practicing kindness to
them to help them find solutions that are kind and respectful.
> But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling,Yes, by living those values yourself. An important part of that is
> I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of
> instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without
> coercion, without "making" them?
using those values in your interactions with them, in how you treat
them, in how you help them solve problems.
One of the problems with conventional parenting is that it blinds
people to how horribly disrespectful and unkind it causes parents to
be toward children. And by the time they're teens kids can be nasty
and rude and doing bad things (because they're fighting control). So
it seems like passing on values is hard and uncertain.
But it isn't. While we can't ensure our kids will have the same set
of values we do, kids who are treated kindly, respectfully, who
aren't lied to and so on, drink all those in and return them. They
*value* being treated that way.
> It's not a school subject. It's something that our family valuesIt will help your thinking be clearer about the difference between
> and puts to use on a daily basis. Some of these things ARE
> "lessons" we teach as part of working together.
learning and being taught if you don't see what people pick up from
life as lessons.
It can be argued that teaching and lessons and learning and modeling
are all the same, but that emphasizes their similarities. What's
important when beginning unschooling is focusing on their differences
because the differences are profound. For a learner, there's a huge
internal difference between being made to read a book and reading a
book they picked up purely out of interest. There's a huge internal
difference between someone trying to move another person from A to B
(from fuzzy values to honesty) and someone using honesty in their
dealings with that person and helping them find honest ways to deal
with others.
This and the links should be helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/teaching/
> We have discussions about our way of life, and about what types ofAnd that's how learning from life works. There are practical reasons
> behavior tend to make our business more successful, our products
> more appealing, and what makes someone in our business a "happy"
> person, versus someone who seems to be unhappy. We also make it
> clear that they are not, obviously, required to be part of this
> business long-term...but it is an option, and these ideas are
> transferable.
for values. It's not "just because that's who I want you to be".
> Of course, as I've been reading so many wonderful posts about theAnd that will trip you up on the path of unschooling ;-)
> importance of putting relationships before material things or
> control issues such as orderliness, etc., I keep wondering whether
> exposing my children to some of these values is not the same as
> "forcing" them to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject that is
> irrelevant to them at the time.
>
> I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and
> ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to
> be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.
It's not wrong to want something for our kids. I want my daughter to
be kind. But it's going to damage our relationship if I try to make
her be a kind person. On the other hand, if I'm kind to her, if I
help her get what she wants while helping her avoid being unkind to
others, she will see and feel the value of being kind, she will see
and value what will be lost by being unkind.
There's a difference in how values are absorbed if they're used as a
tool and when they're imposed to change someone's character.
> My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as,If he wanted a dictionary definition he could look that up. The
> "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a
> discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-
> control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the
> dictionary definition and move on?
information is less important than the interaction between you.
> Is the main idea here to try not to put our own personal opinionsSounds good. :-) If he asks, do let him know what you believe. If
> out there as the only right way? I often couch our discussions in
> terms of, "Some people think..." or "some people believe..." and we
> often say things like, "but no one really knows for sure," or
> "there are a lot of other equally intelligent people who think..."
> etc.
you're a person he values, your opinion will count for more, but
that's not something parents can help! (Nor should they try.) It's
good to be aware that we have influence over them and to avoid
abusing it. But I wouldn't fear that sharing your opinion is the same
as not giving him the freedom to choose.
> I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas outWhy do you think you need to make that clear? Why do you think they
> there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or
> embrace one day and reject the next.
don't know that?
> Should I be undertaking this "character" study out of my ownIt could be a fun thing to do together like an Akira Kurosawa
> interest? Posting quotes because I happen to like them, and see
> what comes of it? Should I "strew" books that happen to explore
> certain character traits or ideas and see what kind of discussions
> occur?
marathon. It could get in the way of unschooling if you have goals
for what you'd like them to get out of it. I think it's a red flag
that you have a goal if you want to strew books about the character
traits. It's like a trick to get them to follow your path. (If your
husband was studying something he wanted you to study too, wouldn't
finding books left out feel manipulative? IT's because the books are
about what he wants for you not help in you find things you want for
you.)
Use strewing for things you think they might enjoy. Keep the focus on
them rather than where you would like them to go.
If they do show interest in what you're doing, then a couple of books
would be in keeping with that.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling --
and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is
"wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?-=-
Please be very careful about any "we" statements, anywhere in your
life. Even about your own family. You qualified it kind of, by
asking a question, but nobody can speak for all unschoolers without
the danger of the next unschooler over saying "I don't."
There are some things about which right and wrong are subjective.
Covered midriff. Exposed arms on a woman. Beard on a man.
Those are the kinds of things 18th and 19th century Christian
missionaries ran up against and imposed a "right" that didn't take
culture or climate into account.
As to whether rape is right or wrong, that's not subjective at all.
Whether causing another person to cry from embarrassment or shame is
wrong, if you're around the house and one kid makes another kid cry,
I'd say "wrong." If it's a courtroom and a judge or lawyer makes a
criminal cry, that's fine with me.
-=-I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling --
and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is
"wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?-=-
"It depends" is the best response I can give. Each instance is
different, and the opportunities to discuss what comes up naturally
can't be repeated in other families. Things happen, parents and
children discuss them, children learn a little more each time, adding
to what they already know and believe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is
"wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?-=-
Please be very careful about any "we" statements, anywhere in your
life. Even about your own family. You qualified it kind of, by
asking a question, but nobody can speak for all unschoolers without
the danger of the next unschooler over saying "I don't."
There are some things about which right and wrong are subjective.
Covered midriff. Exposed arms on a woman. Beard on a man.
Those are the kinds of things 18th and 19th century Christian
missionaries ran up against and imposed a "right" that didn't take
culture or climate into account.
As to whether rape is right or wrong, that's not subjective at all.
Whether causing another person to cry from embarrassment or shame is
wrong, if you're around the house and one kid makes another kid cry,
I'd say "wrong." If it's a courtroom and a judge or lawyer makes a
criminal cry, that's fine with me.
-=-I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling --
and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is
"wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?-=-
"It depends" is the best response I can give. Each instance is
different, and the opportunities to discuss what comes up naturally
can't be repeated in other families. Things happen, parents and
children discuss them, children learn a little more each time, adding
to what they already know and believe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas out
there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or
embrace one day and reject the next.-=-
I never talked to my kids about anything like that.
The best way to make that true (if not clear) is to be calm when an
interest wanes or grows, and not to criticize them for changing their
minds. Or tell them (brief) stories of things you've changed your
mind about, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or
embrace one day and reject the next.-=-
I never talked to my kids about anything like that.
The best way to make that true (if not clear) is to be calm when an
interest wanes or grows, and not to criticize them for changing their
minds. Or tell them (brief) stories of things you've changed your
mind about, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
"Character First" was created as a remedial morality program for
school kids, I think. Because school goes against some of the natural
cultural paths of learning, there are things kids don't learn from
other kids. And when schools set up an "us vs. them" of adults and
kids, the kids tend to reject the adults' values as being "of them/
others."
So it seems in an unschooling situation where children are around
adults other than just their parents and around other people of
various ages, they should be able to pick and choose from all those
examples the things they would like to emulate without a peer group
telling them who to ignore and what to do.
This isn't a recommendation for anyone else, but just a full
disclosure moment. <g> Holly and Marty have both come to sessions I
ran on medieval virtues. Marty was invited, and often had gaming or
other things to do, and the first time Holly went was because it was
at a restaurant near our house and she was hungry, so she walked over
to ask me to buy her dinner, and stayed. And came back.
Those discussions were based on knightly virtues of the middle ages,
and some of them are deep and esoteric. "Franchise" is the hardest
of them. "Chastity," when it's not just sexual, and it's not just
for little girls. "Chastity" as a virtue for adult men.
Here are some of the notes on those. I'm "AElflaed" on those pages:
http://sandradodd.com/duckford/virtue/lists
http://sandradodd.com/duckford/mindfulness
Those were not designed for my children, but for several adult friends
who were already knights or hoping to become knights in the medieval
studies group my other life is in. <g> I wasn't "teaching" those
people. I was helping them explore. It did involve quotes and
vocabulary, and nobody "had to" be there.
Some of the things I learned there I've brought here. Something I
wrote here, I took there ("here" meaning unschooling discussions, not
necessarily this very list, though it might have been).
In my children's lives this was natural learning, but not everyone's
mom runs series of discussions on knightly virtues. So I want to say
my kids (the younger two) have had this opportunity.
For my personal self, I love (love!) movies about the redemption of
young men, who were thoughtless, selfish bad guys, or guys with bad
attitudes, who become virtuous. Seven Years in Tibet. Guarding
Tess. Stand By Me, in a way. Enemy Mine. About a Boy. You don't
need to talk about those, if you watch them. Just let them speak for
themselves, and some of what they tell won't kick in for a year or ten
or twenty. No problem.
If someone lives another 20 years, they have time to learn more. If
someone's not going to live that long, they didn't need that knowledge
anyway.
Sandra
school kids, I think. Because school goes against some of the natural
cultural paths of learning, there are things kids don't learn from
other kids. And when schools set up an "us vs. them" of adults and
kids, the kids tend to reject the adults' values as being "of them/
others."
So it seems in an unschooling situation where children are around
adults other than just their parents and around other people of
various ages, they should be able to pick and choose from all those
examples the things they would like to emulate without a peer group
telling them who to ignore and what to do.
This isn't a recommendation for anyone else, but just a full
disclosure moment. <g> Holly and Marty have both come to sessions I
ran on medieval virtues. Marty was invited, and often had gaming or
other things to do, and the first time Holly went was because it was
at a restaurant near our house and she was hungry, so she walked over
to ask me to buy her dinner, and stayed. And came back.
Those discussions were based on knightly virtues of the middle ages,
and some of them are deep and esoteric. "Franchise" is the hardest
of them. "Chastity," when it's not just sexual, and it's not just
for little girls. "Chastity" as a virtue for adult men.
Here are some of the notes on those. I'm "AElflaed" on those pages:
http://sandradodd.com/duckford/virtue/lists
http://sandradodd.com/duckford/mindfulness
Those were not designed for my children, but for several adult friends
who were already knights or hoping to become knights in the medieval
studies group my other life is in. <g> I wasn't "teaching" those
people. I was helping them explore. It did involve quotes and
vocabulary, and nobody "had to" be there.
Some of the things I learned there I've brought here. Something I
wrote here, I took there ("here" meaning unschooling discussions, not
necessarily this very list, though it might have been).
In my children's lives this was natural learning, but not everyone's
mom runs series of discussions on knightly virtues. So I want to say
my kids (the younger two) have had this opportunity.
For my personal self, I love (love!) movies about the redemption of
young men, who were thoughtless, selfish bad guys, or guys with bad
attitudes, who become virtuous. Seven Years in Tibet. Guarding
Tess. Stand By Me, in a way. Enemy Mine. About a Boy. You don't
need to talk about those, if you watch them. Just let them speak for
themselves, and some of what they tell won't kick in for a year or ten
or twenty. No problem.
If someone lives another 20 years, they have time to learn more. If
someone's not going to live that long, they didn't need that knowledge
anyway.
Sandra
Kristi
>>>We run a family business together, and there are some "rights and wrongs" about running our business -- things that are taught, handed down from generation to generation, not because the child asked about it, but because we rely on their work and their contribution, and because we want them to learn how to treat customers, how to work in ways that help and don't harm, how to increase enjoyment in working with others.<<<My family and I have run an outdoor retail store and service shop for years. One of the advantages of a family-owned store is that we know each other really well, and therefore know what "roles" each person feels comfortable with based on their personality. My sister-in-law, for instance, is highly chatty and extraordinarily good at providing information about a product to someone, and often a customer will buy something after interacting with her. My husband, on the other hand, prefers to be in the back, wrenching on bikes or tuning skis and snowboards--out of the way and with minimal interaction with customers. I'm great at handling paperwork, my mother-in-law loves to do window displays...
While I understand what you are saying in wanting to pass your work ideals down to your children, the best and most obvious way for them to understand how you treat customers and work with others is for them to see how you do it. If some of the customers are always treated respectfully and in a friendly manner, but others are treated coldly and with an untrusting manner, it would be unfair for you to tell them to treat ALL customers with respect and courtesy. What they see is not what they are being told. Granted, in theory, ALL customers should be treated with respect, but the reality of real business interactions often proves otherwise. This is where I would be honest with my kids...if Rude Joe customer comes into the store and demands a refund because of a problem that was obviously not the store's fault, but I give a refund anyway, I'd discuss the interaction with my kids afterwards and let them know why I did what I did, and maybe ask them what they thought about it...how might they have handled the situation if I wasn't there.
>>>Of course, as I've been reading so many wonderful posts about the importance of putting relationships before material things or control issues such as orderliness, etc., I keep wondering whether exposing my children to some of these values is not the same as "forcing" them to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject that is irrelevant to them at the time.<<<When it comes to working in the business, it seems like you are actually exposing them to experiences (not values) that occur in your day to day life, and maybe you talk about your values throughout the day. On face value, I wouldn't say that's in any way related to sitting at a desk learning irrelevancies. Of course, if they are being forced to sit there all day and work with you in the business when they'd rather be drawing or playing on the computer, what you are trying to promote may become irrelevant to them.
>>>Should I be undertaking this "character" study out of my own interest? Posting quotes because I happen to like them, and see what comes of it?<<<In my opinion, if you are interested in character studies, you should pursue them and delve into your interest in the topic. I pursue many of my own interests, and my kids see my excited passion for all sorts of diverse things. If anything, it shows that learning never ends...even busy Moms have things they want to learn. But I'm not going to throw quotations about natural childbirth around just because I hope that should they decide to have kids they will choose to have their babies at home.
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/11/2010 8:46 PM, Hael wrote:
teaching them. Try thinking more in terms of just having conversations
about all the interesting stuff that comes up in your happy and
interesting daily lives. If my kid asked, "What does conscience mean?" I
would answer best I could - and wait to see if they wanted to talk more
about it. Or, I might, if I'm thinking quickly, relate it to something
else they are interested in. My first thought in response to this
question was about the tv show, Dexter, which Rosie and Rox and a lot of
their friends are really into watching these days. (Serial murderer who
kills bad people.) So, my response might have been to say, "What Dexter
doesn't have." But, then, I'd have probably thought more and said,
"Well, maybe he does...." and then we'd talk about it in the context of
Dexter.
As far as the vocabulary of character traits goes - you don't have to
consciously introduce that terminology, it will come up in their reading
and conversations over time. Read, watch tv, go to movies and shows, and
have lots of good conversation! If you feel like you don't have that
vocabulary yourself, you could read the Character Counts stuff (which IS
used in lots of public schools and probably having exactly the opposite
effect that they're hoping for). I read "The Virtues Project" stuff, in
the past, and so there is some of that in my head - I found it kind of
interesting to see all the quotes from different religions. Nothing
wrong with pursuing an interest of our own and, of course, anything we
know more about will be something we have to draw upon IF it comes up
naturally in the course of our lives with our children. I'm guessing
maybe you feel a bit lacking in the ability to pass along these good
character traits just by modeling and natural conversation - but really
that IS how it works.
It isn't that we don't want to "instill" (that works really sucks) good
character into our children, it is that we don't think trying to teach
it to them by telling it to them s very useful and could be very
counterproductive. Live it - and talk about issues that come up in your
own real lives or that you observe on tv or in movies or books or other
people's lives.
I once had a class in which we had to memorize a set of good character
traits. It was alphabetical - one for each letter of the alphabet. It
was a monkey trick - monkey see/monkey do. It was exactly like how in
4th grade I memorized all the "being verbs" and I can still recite them
- is, am, are, was, were, be, being, been, has, have had, do, does, did,
shall, will, should, would, may, might, must, can, could --- there they
are. Doesn't mean I can use them any better than anybody else, just
because I can recite them <G>.
about our personal opinions? Of course. Do we pretend that everybody
else on the planet is always wrong and we're always right? No.
Are you reacting to parents who expected you to always spout off exactly
their opinions and not think for yourself? Unschooling parents are
supporting their kids in thinking - not in spouting off someone else's
ideas.
Think more in terms of good conversation with another person. Both
parties to a good conversation have an important role - it isn't a
one-sided lecture, it is an interaction.
really think something say, "I really think that ....whatever...., but
other people think .....". And you could go on with explaining why you
don't agree. That doesn't demand the kid think what you think - that
allows the kid to see into your thought processes about the topic.
it would be dishonest and disingenuous to pretend you don't have any
positions or opinions, yourself, or to hold out on telling the kid what
you believe and why.
interested. But do you really want to leave them with the impression
that you think all ideas are equally smart and valid and good?
Go for honesty in your relationship - stop thinking of how to manipulate
them into learning what you want them to learn and trust that they can't
help learning and that your role is to provide the environment that is
interesting and fun and offers lots of fertile ground for them to learn
whatever they learn. You really and truly do not have to worry about
"what" they are learning - you don't have to make sure they'll learn to
be honest and you do not have to make sure they'll learn to read or do
basic math. These are real-life things that will come up naturally.
-pam
> My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does*conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on?Can you relax more and not think in terms of what you are instilling or
>
teaching them. Try thinking more in terms of just having conversations
about all the interesting stuff that comes up in your happy and
interesting daily lives. If my kid asked, "What does conscience mean?" I
would answer best I could - and wait to see if they wanted to talk more
about it. Or, I might, if I'm thinking quickly, relate it to something
else they are interested in. My first thought in response to this
question was about the tv show, Dexter, which Rosie and Rox and a lot of
their friends are really into watching these days. (Serial murderer who
kills bad people.) So, my response might have been to say, "What Dexter
doesn't have." But, then, I'd have probably thought more and said,
"Well, maybe he does...." and then we'd talk about it in the context of
Dexter.
As far as the vocabulary of character traits goes - you don't have to
consciously introduce that terminology, it will come up in their reading
and conversations over time. Read, watch tv, go to movies and shows, and
have lots of good conversation! If you feel like you don't have that
vocabulary yourself, you could read the Character Counts stuff (which IS
used in lots of public schools and probably having exactly the opposite
effect that they're hoping for). I read "The Virtues Project" stuff, in
the past, and so there is some of that in my head - I found it kind of
interesting to see all the quotes from different religions. Nothing
wrong with pursuing an interest of our own and, of course, anything we
know more about will be something we have to draw upon IF it comes up
naturally in the course of our lives with our children. I'm guessing
maybe you feel a bit lacking in the ability to pass along these good
character traits just by modeling and natural conversation - but really
that IS how it works.
It isn't that we don't want to "instill" (that works really sucks) good
character into our children, it is that we don't think trying to teach
it to them by telling it to them s very useful and could be very
counterproductive. Live it - and talk about issues that come up in your
own real lives or that you observe on tv or in movies or books or other
people's lives.
I once had a class in which we had to memorize a set of good character
traits. It was alphabetical - one for each letter of the alphabet. It
was a monkey trick - monkey see/monkey do. It was exactly like how in
4th grade I memorized all the "being verbs" and I can still recite them
- is, am, are, was, were, be, being, been, has, have had, do, does, did,
shall, will, should, would, may, might, must, can, could --- there they
are. Doesn't mean I can use them any better than anybody else, just
because I can recite them <G>.
> Is the main idea here to try not to put our own personal opinions out there as the only right way?That is not at all the "main" idea, no. But do we let our kids know
about our personal opinions? Of course. Do we pretend that everybody
else on the planet is always wrong and we're always right? No.
Are you reacting to parents who expected you to always spout off exactly
their opinions and not think for yourself? Unschooling parents are
supporting their kids in thinking - not in spouting off someone else's
ideas.
Think more in terms of good conversation with another person. Both
parties to a good conversation have an important role - it isn't a
one-sided lecture, it is an interaction.
> I often couch our discussions in terms of, "Some people think..." or "some people believe..." and we often say things like, "but no one really knows for sure," or "there are a lot of other equally intelligent people who think..." etc.Say what you really believe - don't couch your discussions. If YOU
>
really think something say, "I really think that ....whatever...., but
other people think .....". And you could go on with explaining why you
don't agree. That doesn't demand the kid think what you think - that
allows the kid to see into your thought processes about the topic.
it would be dishonest and disingenuous to pretend you don't have any
positions or opinions, yourself, or to hold out on telling the kid what
you believe and why.
> I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas out there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or embrace one day and reject the next.You do that by doing it - yourself and with them, when they are
>
interested. But do you really want to leave them with the impression
that you think all ideas are equally smart and valid and good?
Go for honesty in your relationship - stop thinking of how to manipulate
them into learning what you want them to learn and trust that they can't
help learning and that your role is to provide the environment that is
interesting and fun and offers lots of fertile ground for them to learn
whatever they learn. You really and truly do not have to worry about
"what" they are learning - you don't have to make sure they'll learn to
be honest and you do not have to make sure they'll learn to read or do
basic math. These are real-life things that will come up naturally.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-It isn't that we don't want to "instill" (that works really sucks)
good
character into our children=-
I like that word!
I don't think I do it much to my kids, but I think there are things
"instilled" in them by their own creation.
I have had SCA students (still have one) who have come and asked me
very politely if I would help instill some things in them! If someone
wants coaching, then the coach is instilling (installing <g>) all
kinds of things, consciously.
-=-Live it - and talk about issues that come up in your
own real lives or that you observe on tv or in movies or books or other
people's lives.-=-
That, combined with their respect for the parent's judgment, will
instill in them those positive traits and better choices that the
parents might hope good people would gain.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
good
character into our children=-
I like that word!
I don't think I do it much to my kids, but I think there are things
"instilled" in them by their own creation.
I have had SCA students (still have one) who have come and asked me
very politely if I would help instill some things in them! If someone
wants coaching, then the coach is instilling (installing <g>) all
kinds of things, consciously.
-=-Live it - and talk about issues that come up in your
own real lives or that you observe on tv or in movies or books or other
people's lives.-=-
That, combined with their respect for the parent's judgment, will
instill in them those positive traits and better choices that the
parents might hope good people would gain.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/12/2010 8:58 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
word applied to children - it has a science fiction or medical sense to
it, in my head, and my reaction is to flinch in anticipated pain.
-pam
> It isn't that we don't want to "instill" (that works really sucks)I meant to say that "word" really sucks. I cringe whenever I hear that
word applied to children - it has a science fiction or medical sense to
it, in my head, and my reaction is to flinch in anticipated pain.
-pam
Hael
Thank you all for some good thought-provoking ideas here.
I think all of this stuff keeps boiling down to trust: trust that your kids are good people, that they are learning, that they want to find ways to contribute, and that they will gravitate toward things that make them feel they are growing and becoming more competent.
Thanks again.
Deb
I think all of this stuff keeps boiling down to trust: trust that your kids are good people, that they are learning, that they want to find ways to contribute, and that they will gravitate toward things that make them feel they are growing and becoming more competent.
Thanks again.
Deb
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think all of this stuff keeps boiling down to trust: trust that
your kids are good people, that they are learning, that they want to
find ways to contribute, and that they will gravitate toward things
that make them feel they are growing and becoming more competent.-=-
Keep boiling it down, though.
Learn to know that your kids are learning, that they WILL contribute,
that they WILL grow and become more competent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your kids are good people, that they are learning, that they want to
find ways to contribute, and that they will gravitate toward things
that make them feel they are growing and becoming more competent.-=-
Keep boiling it down, though.
Learn to know that your kids are learning, that they WILL contribute,
that they WILL grow and become more competent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***It would be part vocabulary-building , and part quotation-reading, and part thinking about what kind of person we want to become.***
One thing that has really helped me be a better unschooling parent, was to stop seeing my kids for what they will become, and see what they are right now. When I started focusing on that, and seeing all the wonderful things they are doing and being right now, it was hard for me to imagine them being any different from the wonderful people they are today, except maybe even better and wiser and more interesting as they grow up.
***I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?***
Well yes and no... I'm opinionated, there's no way around that. My kids get to here my opinion all the time! I tell them what I think is right and wrong, and they get to decide what they think is right and wrong and have an opinion on that too.
***But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling, I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without coercion, without "making" them?***
Kids already have character and values. Look directly at them and really try to see who they are and what kinds of character traits they have and what values they have right now.
***I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.***
Except they may not be interested in those things. They could be interested in what mom is interested in and not internally be driven to explore those same things. My oldest is usually interested in what I have to say and what I think, but it doesn't mean she's going to own those things too. It's the same way that I'm interested in what she is into, even though I'm not necessarily going to explore those things in my own free time the way she does.
***My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on? ***
Discuss and answer for as long as everyone is still interested and stop when it seems natural to do so or when the conversation takes a tangent in another direction. Chamille, my oldest, has a funny way of diverting the conversation, and it always seems to involve blow up dolls as sex toys, and that is always my cue that I've talked too much.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing that has really helped me be a better unschooling parent, was to stop seeing my kids for what they will become, and see what they are right now. When I started focusing on that, and seeing all the wonderful things they are doing and being right now, it was hard for me to imagine them being any different from the wonderful people they are today, except maybe even better and wiser and more interesting as they grow up.
***I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?***
Well yes and no... I'm opinionated, there's no way around that. My kids get to here my opinion all the time! I tell them what I think is right and wrong, and they get to decide what they think is right and wrong and have an opinion on that too.
***But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling, I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without coercion, without "making" them?***
Kids already have character and values. Look directly at them and really try to see who they are and what kinds of character traits they have and what values they have right now.
***I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.***
Except they may not be interested in those things. They could be interested in what mom is interested in and not internally be driven to explore those same things. My oldest is usually interested in what I have to say and what I think, but it doesn't mean she's going to own those things too. It's the same way that I'm interested in what she is into, even though I'm not necessarily going to explore those things in my own free time the way she does.
***My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on? ***
Discuss and answer for as long as everyone is still interested and stop when it seems natural to do so or when the conversation takes a tangent in another direction. Chamille, my oldest, has a funny way of diverting the conversation, and it always seems to involve blow up dolls as sex toys, and that is always my cue that I've talked too much.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/12/2010 1:26 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
sometimes played games with me because they knew how much "I" like those
games - not because they like them so much. They said they didn't mind,
in fact they seemed a little gleeful about it, because they knew how
much stuff I did because they liked to do it. This was Roxana and Roya -
I'm pretty sure Rosie plays with me because she likes to play, too, not
only to be nice to me. Rox and Roya both quickly qualified themselves
and said they'd had fun, too, it was okay - but it was clear that it
wouldn't have been their first choice if it hadn't been something they
knew I like a lot.
I think they're talking about when they were young teens, by the way, so
I'd built up a lot of unschooling mom credit by that time. Also, they
absolutely knew, from experience, that they could say, "I don't want to
play" and I wouldn't pressure them and they knew they could quit at any
time with no hard feelings. So - they were free to give me a sweet gift
and they did it without ever holding it over my head or using it as a
bargaining tool or anything like that.
-pam
> Except they may not be interested in those things. They could be interested in what mom is interested in and not internally be driven to explore those same things. My oldest is usually interested in what I have to say and what I think, but it doesn't mean she's going to own those things too.At the Santa Fe Symposium, two of my three kids said that they'd
>
sometimes played games with me because they knew how much "I" like those
games - not because they like them so much. They said they didn't mind,
in fact they seemed a little gleeful about it, because they knew how
much stuff I did because they liked to do it. This was Roxana and Roya -
I'm pretty sure Rosie plays with me because she likes to play, too, not
only to be nice to me. Rox and Roya both quickly qualified themselves
and said they'd had fun, too, it was okay - but it was clear that it
wouldn't have been their first choice if it hadn't been something they
knew I like a lot.
I think they're talking about when they were young teens, by the way, so
I'd built up a lot of unschooling mom credit by that time. Also, they
absolutely knew, from experience, that they could say, "I don't want to
play" and I wouldn't pressure them and they knew they could quit at any
time with no hard feelings. So - they were free to give me a sweet gift
and they did it without ever holding it over my head or using it as a
bargaining tool or anything like that.
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
***Go for honesty in your relationship - stop thinking of how to manipulate
them into learning what you want them to learn and trust that they can't
help learning and that your role is to provide the environment that is
interesting and fun and offers lots of fertile ground for them to learn
whatever they learn. ***
Not sure why your whole post reminded me of the Sims, but there it is! Our kids aren't Sims, we don't get to decide what kind of traits they have when we create them! They will have some similar traits to each of the genetic parents, and some traits totally unique to them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them into learning what you want them to learn and trust that they can't
help learning and that your role is to provide the environment that is
interesting and fun and offers lots of fertile ground for them to learn
whatever they learn. ***
Not sure why your whole post reminded me of the Sims, but there it is! Our kids aren't Sims, we don't get to decide what kind of traits they have when we create them! They will have some similar traits to each of the genetic parents, and some traits totally unique to them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
momsclubmh
I don't have any thoughts or ideas for you, but I'm also very eager to hear what others have to say. The unschooling approach is a lot more "far reaching" than I'd originally thought. These are also some really new concepts for me and I've enjoyed letting them wash over me...but I've wondered a lot of the same things you're questioning here, too.
Pamela
Pamela
--- In [email protected], "Hael" <dlmckee@...> wrote:
>
> One of the things I had been pondering before considering the unschooling approach (we have been homeschooling for years) was devoting part of our "school day" to exploring specific character traits -- maybe one a week -- with my step-son.
>
> I had been trying to come up with ways to instill such ideas in him -- through quotations and readings -- and I needed a place to start, to suggest some character traits I could get on board with. (Again, this was before I began to understand the ideas behind unschooling, particularly the concept of not wishing "to instill" anything.)
>
> At that time, I found a website / organization, called Character First, that lists 49 character qualities, and gives a short description of each, and maybe a quote.
>
> For example, "Tolerance vs. Prejudice," and the quote offered is "We should look to the mind, and not to the outward appearance." Aesop
>
> I thought these might offer glimpses into ways of being, and then we could explore it a little, then just have it in the back of our mind for the week, and hopefully longer. It wouldn't be a lecture or anything lengthy.
>
> It would be part vocabulary-building, and part quotation-reading, and part thinking about what kind of person we want to become.
>
> I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?
>
> But as I've been modifying my thoughts, and embracing unschooling, I have been trying to put some thought into this issue of instilling character or values. Is there a way to do it, without coercion, without "making" them?
>
> It's not a school subject. It's something that our family values and puts to use on a daily basis. Some of these things ARE "lessons" we teach as part of working together. We run a family business together, and there are some "rights and wrongs" about running our business -- things that are taught, handed down from generation to generation, not because the child asked about it, but because we rely on their work and their contribution, and because we want them to learn how to treat customers, how to work in ways that help and don't harm, how to increase enjoyment in working with others. And we do engage their thinking in passing along these ideas -- we don't just say, "You have to be courteous to customers." We have discussions about our way of life, and about what types of behavior tend to make our business more successful, our products more appealing, and what makes someone in our business a "happy" person, versus someone who seems to be unhappy. We also make it clear that they are not, obviously, required to be part of this business long-term...but it is an option, and these ideas are transferable.
>
> Of course, as I've been reading so many wonderful posts about the importance of putting relationships before material things or control issues such as orderliness, etc., I keep wondering whether exposing my children to some of these values is not the same as "forcing" them to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject that is irrelevant to them at the time.
>
> I really do want my kids to know the words for these behaviors and ideas; I want them to spend time in thought about what it means to be "flexible" vs. "resistant," among other traits.
>
> My stepson, who is a big reader, often asks questions such as, "What does *conscience* mean?" Okay...is that an opening for a discussion of right and wrong, or some kind of exploration of self-control or virtue or guilt? Or should I just give him the dictionary definition and move on?
>
> Is the main idea here to try not to put our own personal opinions out there as the only right way? I often couch our discussions in terms of, "Some people think..." or "some people believe..." and we often say things like, "but no one really knows for sure," or "there are a lot of other equally intelligent people who think..." etc.
>
> I want to make it clear to my children that there are ideas out there that they can explore and reject, or explore and embrace, or embrace one day and reject the next.
>
> Should I be undertaking this "character" study out of my own interest? Posting quotes because I happen to like them, and see what comes of it? Should I "strew" books that happen to explore certain character traits or ideas and see what kind of discussions occur?
>
> Love to hear thoughts and ideas on this topic.
>
> Deb
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The unschooling approach is a lot more "far reaching" than I'd
originally thought. -=-
There's basic vanilla unschooling, and then there's the more far-
reaching radical unchooling, where academics aren't separated from
other learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
originally thought. -=-
There's basic vanilla unschooling, and then there's the more far-
reaching radical unchooling, where academics aren't separated from
other learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
>" I think all of this stuff keeps boiling down to trust: trust that your kids are good people, that they are learning, that they want to find ways to contribute, and that they will gravitate toward things that make them feel they are growing and becoming more competent."It's not that I think this is untrue--but it's not enough.
>
>
It's more than just trusting your kids. It's actively engaging with them and most importantly fostering, nurturing and maintaining a relationship where they trust YOU. Then the two of you can navigate the rough terrain.
When that trust is broken by parents, children close themselves off, in emotional self defense, from the wealth of knowledge that a parent might have been able to share with them and are left alone to figure stuff out, and they often do it badly.
I've watched multiple times now, through my son's eyes (14), what has happened to his friends when this happens, and it's sad. The friends begin relying on their friends to figure stuff out. They will sometimes call him for his advice, to which he responds in two ways. The first is that he recommends that they talk with their parents, and the second is that he comes to me, gets my advice, and then calls them back as though it's coming from him so that they don't feel "betrayed." I
Joanna
Joanna
> ***I know that "teaching" character in this way is not unschooling -- and that we want to avoid telling our kids what is "right" and what is "wrong." After all, these things are mostly subjective, yes?***YES! I've seen my son go through a big phase of taking on and repeating back what I've said (parroting) which made me only more conscious of really believing and discussing the opinions I've expressed, but now that he's a little older, he does firmly get that he can has his own opinions.
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> Well yes and no... I'm opinionated, there's no way around that. My kids get to here my opinion all the time! I tell them what I think is right and wrong, and they get to decide what they think is right and wrong and have an opinion on that too.
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And he questions me all the time on mine, which is GREAT! He is shockingly unafraid to bring up subjects when he's perceived an inconsistency, and then he grills me until he's satisfied that I have had integrity and consistency. It's SO COOL!! I think a lot about stuff, about my life, about living my life through consistent principles, and he has observed this and been part of that process for all of his 14 years. I would say he's probably internalized a very important value that I hold of self reflection and integrity. He may have been born with that propensity to start with, but it's definitely been nurtured living with me.
And those character traits were passed on with no more than me living life and involving him in lots of conversation (well, both my kids).
My daughter is still in a parroting phase, but I trust that she'll move into forming her own opinions as well. I suspect it's pretty normal.
Joanna