what's "too radical"?
Sandra Dodd
Maybe it's not what, but where...
Some Unschoolers who have a lot of unschooling facebook friends have
posted some unschooling things there, and received bad responses.
The easiest thing to do would be NOT to post radical unschooling
business out in public that way. When it's out of context it can come
across and crazed or strident or goofy (or all three).
Here's one example, and it might be interesting for people who are
looking for something to read while this list is kinda quiet.
Katherine Anderson quoted Jenny Cyphers:
Katherine Anderson "There is no need to discipline a kid if they are
never put in a position where they must choose between what they feel
is right and what they feel their parents think is right." �Jenny
Cyphers
http://www.facebook.com//profile.php?v=feed&story_fbid=239566473632&id=1605703504
I think people can see that without being on facebook; if not, sorry.
And a few days ago someone linked the list of ways to screw up
unschooling, and got some defensive responses too, and another
unschooler picked it up (maybe more than one). That one is way too
radical for public consumption! <g>
Can't find where, but it was this, quoted and linked:
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
(I couldn't find where it had been posted--anyone remember? The
responses were things like "I don't even know what this means" and
"Are you saying I'm not a good unschooler if I don't have a TV? Where
was that?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Some Unschoolers who have a lot of unschooling facebook friends have
posted some unschooling things there, and received bad responses.
The easiest thing to do would be NOT to post radical unschooling
business out in public that way. When it's out of context it can come
across and crazed or strident or goofy (or all three).
Here's one example, and it might be interesting for people who are
looking for something to read while this list is kinda quiet.
Katherine Anderson quoted Jenny Cyphers:
Katherine Anderson "There is no need to discipline a kid if they are
never put in a position where they must choose between what they feel
is right and what they feel their parents think is right." �Jenny
Cyphers
http://www.facebook.com//profile.php?v=feed&story_fbid=239566473632&id=1605703504
I think people can see that without being on facebook; if not, sorry.
And a few days ago someone linked the list of ways to screw up
unschooling, and got some defensive responses too, and another
unschooler picked it up (maybe more than one). That one is way too
radical for public consumption! <g>
Can't find where, but it was this, quoted and linked:
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
(I couldn't find where it had been posted--anyone remember? The
responses were things like "I don't even know what this means" and
"Are you saying I'm not a good unschooler if I don't have a TV? Where
was that?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
And a few days ago someone linked the list of ways to screw up
unschooling, and got some defensive responses too, and another
unschooler picked it up (maybe more than one). That one is way too
radical for public consumption! <g>
Can't find where, but it was this, quoted and linked:
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
(I couldn't find where it had been posted--anyone remember? The
responses were things like "I don't even know what this means" and
"Are you saying I'm not a good unschooler if I don't have a TV? Where
was that?)
************************
that was on my facebook. and although there were some poor responses, i do
think many people learn a lot from reading stuff they are "almost" ready for
in their own lives...i have been told many times how much my facebook
friends appreciate reading "challenging" stuff on my wall....
lyla
unschooling, and got some defensive responses too, and another
unschooler picked it up (maybe more than one). That one is way too
radical for public consumption! <g>
Can't find where, but it was this, quoted and linked:
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
(I couldn't find where it had been posted--anyone remember? The
responses were things like "I don't even know what this means" and
"Are you saying I'm not a good unschooler if I don't have a TV? Where
was that?)
************************
that was on my facebook. and although there were some poor responses, i do
think many people learn a lot from reading stuff they are "almost" ready for
in their own lives...i have been told many times how much my facebook
friends appreciate reading "challenging" stuff on my wall....
lyla
Sandra Dodd
-=-that was on my facebook. and although there were some poor
responses, i do
think many people learn a lot from reading stuff they are "almost"
ready for
in their own lives...i have been told many times how much my facebook
friends appreciate reading "challenging" stuff on my wall....-=-
There was some discussion in one of the chats, I think (or maybe it
was a phone call) about whether we should warn people that if they do
become radical unschoolers that they stand to lose some friends.
There are times I don't bring up what I do or don't do with my kids
because it might seem insulting or rude or a buzzkill, as it were.
Christmas Eve at Marty's girlfriend's parents' house, for instance.
They like Marty a lot. That's enough information for now.
Sometimes I just go for it, to the wall, and let people pass out or
sputter in shock and indignation. <g>
Never the week before Christmas, though.
See, if it's not too radical then it's not. It was too radical for
some of those who came across it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
responses, i do
think many people learn a lot from reading stuff they are "almost"
ready for
in their own lives...i have been told many times how much my facebook
friends appreciate reading "challenging" stuff on my wall....-=-
There was some discussion in one of the chats, I think (or maybe it
was a phone call) about whether we should warn people that if they do
become radical unschoolers that they stand to lose some friends.
There are times I don't bring up what I do or don't do with my kids
because it might seem insulting or rude or a buzzkill, as it were.
Christmas Eve at Marty's girlfriend's parents' house, for instance.
They like Marty a lot. That's enough information for now.
Sometimes I just go for it, to the wall, and let people pass out or
sputter in shock and indignation. <g>
Never the week before Christmas, though.
See, if it's not too radical then it's not. It was too radical for
some of those who came across it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
http://www.facebook.com/lyla.wolfenstein?v=feed&story_fbid=208169064753&ref=mf
The troubled facebook friend comments are there.
I hope you didn't lose friends (not even on facebook) about that, Lyla.
Sandra
The troubled facebook friend comments are there.
I hope you didn't lose friends (not even on facebook) about that, Lyla.
Sandra
Lyla Wolfenstein
no i don't think i did!
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] what's "too radical"?
http://www.facebook.com/lyla.wolfenstein?v=feed&story_fbid=208169064753&ref=mf
The troubled facebook friend comments are there.
I hope you didn't lose friends (not even on facebook) about that, Lyla.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
strawlis
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Elisabeth, mama to Liv(11) and Lex(9)
>:):):) This (above) is exacly why.. I save my more radical thinkings/doings for park-days, conference and such...I love Facebook, and though a lot of my facebook friends are unschooler...about half are not. I did notice the other day the new feature when you post...there is a button that you can choose who can see that post...maybe abit time consuming...I usually will just send a note...if it's something I don't want to share with all.
> See, if it's not too radical then it's not. It was too radical for
> some of those who came across it.
>
Elisabeth, mama to Liv(11) and Lex(9)
Lyla Wolfenstein
you can set it as a default - who sees your status messages - or rather, who doesn't. but i have no problem exposing people to new ideas.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
Lyla's sharing of the list caused me to read it again, and I was pleased to come across this piece
# Don't collaborate.***
* "Unparent"give kids "free reign" without talking to them re: appropriateness of their actions (affecting others and others' property).
* Don't help your kid understand the ways of the world and boundaries and what's right and what's wrong.
* When they have a disagreement, let them work things out themselves with no input from you.
* Do not prepare them ahead of time for anything new they may encounter. Let them deal with it on their own.
* Have the idea that unschooling is just allowing your kids to walk all over others because they feel like it and well you don't want to run their lives!
****
I could add -- and defend non-collaboration (is that a word?) as 'respecting their authenticity', which seems to be the new catch phrase for doing nothing while one kid violates another.
It seems lately, people are unparenting and I think it keeps newcomers from really embracing unschooling. It also makes it more challenging for me to defend it to my husband, Gary, who totally gets unschooling, but has very specific ideas of what constitutes 'unparenting'.
In some respects, it does give me opportunities for object lessons to discuss with our boys, but sometimes it also complicates play with friends. Often I hear the phrase "there's no one right way to unschool" as a defense, which shuts down debate pretty effectively. I mean, if someone feels there's no 'right' way to do something, they can call it whatever they want. Labels become useless -- which might be a good thing.
All I've really been able to come up with is to stick closer to my kids and help them be more aware of what's going on, how Gary & I feel about it, and what we expect from them.
And I love the word collaboration --I've been using guidance or advice, but I wasn't really crazy about either one in that context. So thanks for the term, Sandra & Joyce!
Sylvia
# Don't collaborate.***
* "Unparent"give kids "free reign" without talking to them re: appropriateness of their actions (affecting others and others' property).
* Don't help your kid understand the ways of the world and boundaries and what's right and what's wrong.
* When they have a disagreement, let them work things out themselves with no input from you.
* Do not prepare them ahead of time for anything new they may encounter. Let them deal with it on their own.
* Have the idea that unschooling is just allowing your kids to walk all over others because they feel like it and well you don't want to run their lives!
****
I could add -- and defend non-collaboration (is that a word?) as 'respecting their authenticity', which seems to be the new catch phrase for doing nothing while one kid violates another.
It seems lately, people are unparenting and I think it keeps newcomers from really embracing unschooling. It also makes it more challenging for me to defend it to my husband, Gary, who totally gets unschooling, but has very specific ideas of what constitutes 'unparenting'.
In some respects, it does give me opportunities for object lessons to discuss with our boys, but sometimes it also complicates play with friends. Often I hear the phrase "there's no one right way to unschool" as a defense, which shuts down debate pretty effectively. I mean, if someone feels there's no 'right' way to do something, they can call it whatever they want. Labels become useless -- which might be a good thing.
All I've really been able to come up with is to stick closer to my kids and help them be more aware of what's going on, how Gary & I feel about it, and what we expect from them.
And I love the word collaboration --I've been using guidance or advice, but I wasn't really crazy about either one in that context. So thanks for the term, Sandra & Joyce!
Sylvia
Sandra Dodd
-=-I could add -- and defend non-collaboration (is that a word?) as
'respecting their authenticity', which seems to be the new catch
phrase for doing nothing while one kid violates another.-=-
So if a mother thinks her child is authentically mean, she should
support that? <G>
-=- Often I hear the phrase "there's no one right way to unschool" as
a defense, which shuts down debate pretty effectively. I mean, if
someone feels there's no 'right' way to do something, they can call it
whatever they want. Labels become useless -- which might be a good
thing.
-=-
Yeah, well...
If I were going door to door asking people if they wanted to know more
about unschooling, I might feel guilty. I'm not. I'm staying in
contact with a whole bunch of families and gathering data and
experience and evidence and anecdotes about what has worked and what
has NOT worked.
Don't anybody reveal any names or sources, because I didn't want any
when I first heard and I don't want any now. Seriously. This is a
story without names because I don't know the names.
Someone was recently on some other unschooling list. I don't know
what list but because I was offered details and names, I believe my
source. This was a someone who had overtly at some point in the past
assured me and anyone else who would listen/read that my ideas and
assertions were no better than anyone else's (some form of that) and
pooh on me (some version of that). Years passed. Reportedly, then,
she was back asking other unschoolers for help with her older kids
(teens? Young teens?) because things hadn't gone well. And I was
told that the advice she was being given was same old "common
knowledge" and that if she'd listened and done those things years back
she would have had the close relationship with her kids that others of
us had been confident about.
There's more than one way to unschool. Some ways work better than
others. Just because there's no "one right way" doesn't mean that all
ways are equally good. People get confused about that. Just because
there's more than one way to determine or notate what twice five is,
that doesn't mean that 13 and 8 and 127 are all twice five. One way
or another, it's going to be ten (or maybe 55 <g>).
Just because there are many truths doesn't mean there's no such
thing as bullshit.
Sandra
(quoting myself at the bottom there)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'respecting their authenticity', which seems to be the new catch
phrase for doing nothing while one kid violates another.-=-
So if a mother thinks her child is authentically mean, she should
support that? <G>
-=- Often I hear the phrase "there's no one right way to unschool" as
a defense, which shuts down debate pretty effectively. I mean, if
someone feels there's no 'right' way to do something, they can call it
whatever they want. Labels become useless -- which might be a good
thing.
-=-
Yeah, well...
If I were going door to door asking people if they wanted to know more
about unschooling, I might feel guilty. I'm not. I'm staying in
contact with a whole bunch of families and gathering data and
experience and evidence and anecdotes about what has worked and what
has NOT worked.
Don't anybody reveal any names or sources, because I didn't want any
when I first heard and I don't want any now. Seriously. This is a
story without names because I don't know the names.
Someone was recently on some other unschooling list. I don't know
what list but because I was offered details and names, I believe my
source. This was a someone who had overtly at some point in the past
assured me and anyone else who would listen/read that my ideas and
assertions were no better than anyone else's (some form of that) and
pooh on me (some version of that). Years passed. Reportedly, then,
she was back asking other unschoolers for help with her older kids
(teens? Young teens?) because things hadn't gone well. And I was
told that the advice she was being given was same old "common
knowledge" and that if she'd listened and done those things years back
she would have had the close relationship with her kids that others of
us had been confident about.
There's more than one way to unschool. Some ways work better than
others. Just because there's no "one right way" doesn't mean that all
ways are equally good. People get confused about that. Just because
there's more than one way to determine or notate what twice five is,
that doesn't mean that 13 and 8 and 127 are all twice five. One way
or another, it's going to be ten (or maybe 55 <g>).
Just because there are many truths doesn't mean there's no such
thing as bullshit.
Sandra
(quoting myself at the bottom there)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruby
Hi, I'm new to the list and haven't felt I had anything to offer yet, but
*this* I can comment on! You can create "lists" of your FB friends to make
privacy selection in one step (for a group of people) rather than 10 steps
(for 10 different people). I have groups of friends, family members,
community groups, school friends, and a few others - including one called
"privacy restricted"!
To create the lists, click on the Friends link at the top of the FB screen.
Select "All Connections" in the list on the left. At the top of the list of
your friends should be a link "Create new list". Give it a name, and then
start adding people. You seem to be able to create a limitless numbers of
lists, and each friend can be on any number (or none) of your lists. To
select the settings for each list, go to "Settings" at the top right of
screen (near the log out), and select privacy settings. At that page, there
are 5 sub categories, and each of them has a number of categories as well...
you can go through and select "customise" for those settings, and you can
choose to make things visible to or hide things from certain lists of
people. It sounds a little convoluted, and will take a bit of time, but it
is worth it if you have people on your friends list who are likely to be
offended (and you don't want to cause offense) or if there are people on
your friends list that you choose not to share everything with for any
reason.
You can also use these same lists for adjusting the priv`ac
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*this* I can comment on! You can create "lists" of your FB friends to make
privacy selection in one step (for a group of people) rather than 10 steps
(for 10 different people). I have groups of friends, family members,
community groups, school friends, and a few others - including one called
"privacy restricted"!
To create the lists, click on the Friends link at the top of the FB screen.
Select "All Connections" in the list on the left. At the top of the list of
your friends should be a link "Create new list". Give it a name, and then
start adding people. You seem to be able to create a limitless numbers of
lists, and each friend can be on any number (or none) of your lists. To
select the settings for each list, go to "Settings" at the top right of
screen (near the log out), and select privacy settings. At that page, there
are 5 sub categories, and each of them has a number of categories as well...
you can go through and select "customise" for those settings, and you can
choose to make things visible to or hide things from certain lists of
people. It sounds a little convoluted, and will take a bit of time, but it
is worth it if you have people on your friends list who are likely to be
offended (and you don't want to cause offense) or if there are people on
your friends list that you choose not to share everything with for any
reason.
You can also use these same lists for adjusting the priv`ac
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruby
My apologies - that message was sent early by a 16 month old. :) I'll
finish up below.
finish up below.
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Ruby <scarletrubies@...> wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to the list and haven't felt I had anything to offer yet, but
> *this* I can comment on! You can create "lists" of your FB friends to make
> privacy selection in one step (for a group of people) rather than 10 steps
> (for 10 different people). I have groups of friends, family members,
> community groups, school friends, and a few others - including one called
> "privacy restricted"!
>
> To create the lists, click on the Friends link at the top of the FB
> screen. Select "All Connections" in the list on the left. At the top of
> the list of your friends should be a link "Create new list". Give it a
> name, and then start adding people. You seem to be able to create a
> limitless numbers of lists, and each friend can be on any number (or none)
> of your lists. To select the settings for each list, go to "Settings" at
> the top right of screen (near the log out), and select privacy settings. At
> that page, there are 5 sub categories, and each of them has a number of
> categories as well... you can go through and select "customise" for those
> settings, and you can choose to make things visible to or hide things from
> certain lists of people. It sounds a little convoluted, and will take a bit
> of time, but it is worth it if you have people on your friends list who are
> likely to be offended (and you don't want to cause offense) or if there are
> people on your friends list that you choose not to share everything with for
> any reason.
>
You can use the same lists to alter the privacy of your individual status
updates and posts by clicking on the padlock below the text boxes.
I hope this is easy to follow, and useful info for some.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
So if a mother thinks her child is authentically mean, she should support that? <G>
****
I've heard Moms defend what sounds like that. My choice is to believe that my children will some day (perhaps even today) 'authentically' want to be kind, thoughtful people who can maintain friendships, and sometimes my two cents worth can help them be more kind and thoughtful.
****
There's more than one way to unschool. Some ways work better than others. Just because there's no "one right way" doesn't mean that all ways are equally good. People get confused about that. Just because there's more than one way to determine or notate what twice five is, that doesn't mean that 13 and 8 and 127 are all twice five. One way or another, it's going to be ten (or maybe 55 <g>).
Just because there are many truths doesn't mean there's no such thing as bullshit.
****
Yes! Exactly what I was trying to get at, rather ineloquently, when last it came up in a conversation.
Thanks for the quotation -- I'm adding it to my list!
Sylvia
****
I've heard Moms defend what sounds like that. My choice is to believe that my children will some day (perhaps even today) 'authentically' want to be kind, thoughtful people who can maintain friendships, and sometimes my two cents worth can help them be more kind and thoughtful.
****
There's more than one way to unschool. Some ways work better than others. Just because there's no "one right way" doesn't mean that all ways are equally good. People get confused about that. Just because there's more than one way to determine or notate what twice five is, that doesn't mean that 13 and 8 and 127 are all twice five. One way or another, it's going to be ten (or maybe 55 <g>).
Just because there are many truths doesn't mean there's no such thing as bullshit.
****
Yes! Exactly what I was trying to get at, rather ineloquently, when last it came up in a conversation.
Thanks for the quotation -- I'm adding it to my list!
Sylvia
Jenny Cyphers
***Some Unschoolers who have a lot of unschooling facebook friends have
posted some unschooling things there, and received bad responses.
The easiest thing to do would be NOT to post radical unschooling
business out in public that way. When it's out of context it can come
across and crazed or strident or goofy (or all three).***
Hey now, are you calling me crazed and goofy? (just kidding)
I haven't been visiting facebook lately, actually haven't even checked my mail in a while, there were almost 100 unread emails in my inbox just now... WOW!
So, I'll just say that I rarely post radical unschooling things on facebook because I don't want any sort of weirdness with all my family members that would most likely not appreciate it whatsoever. I will however occasionally defend others who put up nice unschooling comments that get bashed.
That particular quote being mentioned is part of a blog post that, even in context, most maintstream parents wouldn't get or agree with. Not even my own sister who knows me very well, and I'm not afraid to offend, didn't like my blog post and commented as such on it. It's an oldish one because I haven't been updating my blog because I've been busy and unable to take the time to write there. It's here in context if anyone wants to read it. I mean every thing I said in that post about trusting my kids too!
and since I've been cyber absent, I have no idea about the other quote or where it happened or what it was.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posted some unschooling things there, and received bad responses.
The easiest thing to do would be NOT to post radical unschooling
business out in public that way. When it's out of context it can come
across and crazed or strident or goofy (or all three).***
Hey now, are you calling me crazed and goofy? (just kidding)
I haven't been visiting facebook lately, actually haven't even checked my mail in a while, there were almost 100 unread emails in my inbox just now... WOW!
So, I'll just say that I rarely post radical unschooling things on facebook because I don't want any sort of weirdness with all my family members that would most likely not appreciate it whatsoever. I will however occasionally defend others who put up nice unschooling comments that get bashed.
That particular quote being mentioned is part of a blog post that, even in context, most maintstream parents wouldn't get or agree with. Not even my own sister who knows me very well, and I'm not afraid to offend, didn't like my blog post and commented as such on it. It's an oldish one because I haven't been updating my blog because I've been busy and unable to take the time to write there. It's here in context if anyone wants to read it. I mean every thing I said in that post about trusting my kids too!
and since I've been cyber absent, I have no idea about the other quote or where it happened or what it was.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***It's an oldish one because I haven't been updating my blog because I've been busy and unable to take the time to write there. It's here in context if anyone wants to read it.***
and I have no idea why my link didn't show up, so here it is all not fancily hidden in the word "read".... http://jenniferstar.blogspot.com/2009/07/trusting-kids.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and I have no idea why my link didn't show up, so here it is all not fancily hidden in the word "read".... http://jenniferstar.blogspot.com/2009/07/trusting-kids.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
* Don't help your kid understand the ways of the world and boundaries and
what's right and what's wrong.
* When they have a disagreement, let them work things out themselves with no
input from you.
* Do not prepare them ahead of time for anything new they may encounter. Let
them deal with it on their own.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for posting this Sylvia. I ran into this very thing at a conference
earlier this year that left me disturbed.
There was a room full of board games and toys and video games that kids
could hang out in while parents attended the talks. My son was happy to hang
out there and I was glad that this year I would get to attend more of the
chats and hear the speakers! I usually took him to the room and helped him
find a friend to play with or most likely he would just sit down and start
watching some of the older kids play wii and say Bye Mom!
However much I wanted to hear someone speak, I still had to make sure my son
was OK. It seemed many parents left their kids unattended in that room and
it wasn't always hunky dory for everyone, especially the youngest kids. A
few times I was the only adult in the room and a group of younger kids
complained to me that the older boys had been playing the games for hours
without letting anyone else play. I watched for a while (I think the younger
kids couldn't tell when the characters died, so if the players clicked fast
it was easy to trick the younger ones into thinking the game just went on
and it was never their turn) so when one round was over, before they could
start another or continue, I stopped them and asked the boys who were
playing if they could start a rotation to let some of the others play. Give
more kids a chance to play instead of just watching. They had been watching
for hours and all wanted a turn. I suggested one of them oversee the
rotation, but there should be a line on each side (2 controllers, about 8-10
kids), and when you die, you go to the end of the line. That seemed to work;
the older boys still got to play longer because they were better and didn't
die as fast, but now everyone seemed happy because at least they got a turn.
I envisioned them making friends, but maybe none of them cared about that,
just a turn!
But here is the bigger problem we ran into. Damon (who at the time was 4 and
11 months old and yes, already into legos) was upset because there was a kid
guarding a pile of legos and not letting anyone else play. He had left the
room crying to me twice so I went in with him to mediate if necessary. I had
assumed all things in the room were there for community sharing, so how
could one kid tell all the other kids they could not touch the legos? There
was no one there so we started building with the legos. Then a kid not much
bigger than mine showed up and started yelling at him to get away from the
legos. He was frantic! I told him I thought that everything in this room was
here for everyone to share and he said NO! These are MY legos and I don't
want to share them! Hmmm.... then why didn't he just keep them in his room
and how did they get here? He said his mom dumped them here and won't let
him take them back!
Then I understood what that was like from his perspective. He was afriad
other kids were going to steal his legos and take them home, so he was
sitting there guarding his stuff! (Seemed like something MY mom would have
done, NOT an unschooling mom, at least not without consulting with her son
about the purpose of dumping his toys in that room.) I said none of the kids
would take the legos home, they only wanted to sit and build while they were
here. Same for the board games, you play here, and leave it here. Then
another boy came along and since he already knew the lego owner, he was
allowed to play. My son was still being told not to touch and said he wanted
to leave.
So I tried to bond with and make peace with this child. I told him that
there were a lot of lego fans at the conference and he could make some new
friends by sharing his love of legos instead of scaring kids away. Then
another small boy sat down and his dad sat with him. It didn't take long to
figure out he was there to do what I was doing! It seemed his son (along
with mine and dozens of others) had been yelled at and told not to touch the
legos and had left the room crying at least twice. So there we all sat. I
asked the boy his name and how old he was. He was 5, turning 6 in June. I
said Damon's birthday is in June too. The boy asked how far away June was
and I said it was coming soon, in just a few days, but June was 30 days long
so his birthday could be soon or in a month. So we got all the other boys to
say their names and ages and of course they were all about the same age. And
of course they all loved legos. I got them talking about Star Wars, another
hit. Soon they were all talking and laughing. I felt good about helping them
become friends. I made sure I told Damon that he could not take any of the
legos back to our room and the other boy seemed OK after that.
I ended up missing a talk I had really wanted to hear, but this seemed more
important. I found the boy's mother (SHE had gone to the talk! grrrrr) and
told her what had been going on for 2 days, that her son was making enemies
and guarding his legos. Did she ask him if it was OK with him to dump his
legos in there? No. She said it was for his own good. I believe she thought
it would help him make new friends, but she hadn't given it much thought
into how that might happen. She sure didn't sit in there and help! She also
didn't want to hear about the other kids who had left crying (while I was
talking to the dad, several other kids walked in and saw all the kids
playing with legos and seeing adults there asked us if it was OK to play,
saying they had been told to go away before, and another mom told me the
same story about her daughter), she said that was life and kids had to
figure out how to work things out on their own. Like that's how things are
in the real world or something. I felt like she was throwing her son to the
wolves! She did the same sort of thing at the pool, she sat in the corner of
the patio chatting with another mom while both of them ignored their kids
and any turmoil they were having (or causing!) in the water.
I was just so shocked, I didn't know what to say to her or how to process
what she did. I asked my friend J (you can chime in here if you want!) what
she thought of the situation. I was worried maybe there was something about
unschooling that I didn't get, but she agreed with me that the mom should
have asked her son if he might like to share his legos. Or at least helped
him navigate the social aspects of the conference. He was only 5 for crying
out loud!
Anyway, I still think about that mom and son and wonder how they're doing. I
also wonder if we'll see them at the conference next year and if things will
be the same or different.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what's right and what's wrong.
* When they have a disagreement, let them work things out themselves with no
input from you.
* Do not prepare them ahead of time for anything new they may encounter. Let
them deal with it on their own.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for posting this Sylvia. I ran into this very thing at a conference
earlier this year that left me disturbed.
There was a room full of board games and toys and video games that kids
could hang out in while parents attended the talks. My son was happy to hang
out there and I was glad that this year I would get to attend more of the
chats and hear the speakers! I usually took him to the room and helped him
find a friend to play with or most likely he would just sit down and start
watching some of the older kids play wii and say Bye Mom!
However much I wanted to hear someone speak, I still had to make sure my son
was OK. It seemed many parents left their kids unattended in that room and
it wasn't always hunky dory for everyone, especially the youngest kids. A
few times I was the only adult in the room and a group of younger kids
complained to me that the older boys had been playing the games for hours
without letting anyone else play. I watched for a while (I think the younger
kids couldn't tell when the characters died, so if the players clicked fast
it was easy to trick the younger ones into thinking the game just went on
and it was never their turn) so when one round was over, before they could
start another or continue, I stopped them and asked the boys who were
playing if they could start a rotation to let some of the others play. Give
more kids a chance to play instead of just watching. They had been watching
for hours and all wanted a turn. I suggested one of them oversee the
rotation, but there should be a line on each side (2 controllers, about 8-10
kids), and when you die, you go to the end of the line. That seemed to work;
the older boys still got to play longer because they were better and didn't
die as fast, but now everyone seemed happy because at least they got a turn.
I envisioned them making friends, but maybe none of them cared about that,
just a turn!
But here is the bigger problem we ran into. Damon (who at the time was 4 and
11 months old and yes, already into legos) was upset because there was a kid
guarding a pile of legos and not letting anyone else play. He had left the
room crying to me twice so I went in with him to mediate if necessary. I had
assumed all things in the room were there for community sharing, so how
could one kid tell all the other kids they could not touch the legos? There
was no one there so we started building with the legos. Then a kid not much
bigger than mine showed up and started yelling at him to get away from the
legos. He was frantic! I told him I thought that everything in this room was
here for everyone to share and he said NO! These are MY legos and I don't
want to share them! Hmmm.... then why didn't he just keep them in his room
and how did they get here? He said his mom dumped them here and won't let
him take them back!
Then I understood what that was like from his perspective. He was afriad
other kids were going to steal his legos and take them home, so he was
sitting there guarding his stuff! (Seemed like something MY mom would have
done, NOT an unschooling mom, at least not without consulting with her son
about the purpose of dumping his toys in that room.) I said none of the kids
would take the legos home, they only wanted to sit and build while they were
here. Same for the board games, you play here, and leave it here. Then
another boy came along and since he already knew the lego owner, he was
allowed to play. My son was still being told not to touch and said he wanted
to leave.
So I tried to bond with and make peace with this child. I told him that
there were a lot of lego fans at the conference and he could make some new
friends by sharing his love of legos instead of scaring kids away. Then
another small boy sat down and his dad sat with him. It didn't take long to
figure out he was there to do what I was doing! It seemed his son (along
with mine and dozens of others) had been yelled at and told not to touch the
legos and had left the room crying at least twice. So there we all sat. I
asked the boy his name and how old he was. He was 5, turning 6 in June. I
said Damon's birthday is in June too. The boy asked how far away June was
and I said it was coming soon, in just a few days, but June was 30 days long
so his birthday could be soon or in a month. So we got all the other boys to
say their names and ages and of course they were all about the same age. And
of course they all loved legos. I got them talking about Star Wars, another
hit. Soon they were all talking and laughing. I felt good about helping them
become friends. I made sure I told Damon that he could not take any of the
legos back to our room and the other boy seemed OK after that.
I ended up missing a talk I had really wanted to hear, but this seemed more
important. I found the boy's mother (SHE had gone to the talk! grrrrr) and
told her what had been going on for 2 days, that her son was making enemies
and guarding his legos. Did she ask him if it was OK with him to dump his
legos in there? No. She said it was for his own good. I believe she thought
it would help him make new friends, but she hadn't given it much thought
into how that might happen. She sure didn't sit in there and help! She also
didn't want to hear about the other kids who had left crying (while I was
talking to the dad, several other kids walked in and saw all the kids
playing with legos and seeing adults there asked us if it was OK to play,
saying they had been told to go away before, and another mom told me the
same story about her daughter), she said that was life and kids had to
figure out how to work things out on their own. Like that's how things are
in the real world or something. I felt like she was throwing her son to the
wolves! She did the same sort of thing at the pool, she sat in the corner of
the patio chatting with another mom while both of them ignored their kids
and any turmoil they were having (or causing!) in the water.
I was just so shocked, I didn't know what to say to her or how to process
what she did. I asked my friend J (you can chime in here if you want!) what
she thought of the situation. I was worried maybe there was something about
unschooling that I didn't get, but she agreed with me that the mom should
have asked her son if he might like to share his legos. Or at least helped
him navigate the social aspects of the conference. He was only 5 for crying
out loud!
Anyway, I still think about that mom and son and wonder how they're doing. I
also wonder if we'll see them at the conference next year and if things will
be the same or different.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
Did she ask him if it was OK with him to dump his legos in there? No. She said it was for his own good. I believe she thought it would help him make new friends, but she hadn't given it much thought into how that might happen.
*****
We've been to only two conferences, and our policy is that either Gary or I stay near our boys to be available for help if we're needed. It's the primary reason I won't go to a conference with our kids but without Gary. Maybe once they're both teens, but not while they're young enough to still need help navigating the social scene. I can see, tho, where it would be easy to leave kids in a situation where things can get overwhelming for the kids, and without help from parents unkindness happens pretty often.
If the Mom just told him he'd be sharing his legos with anyone who might come by, then left him to fend for himself, that created a bad situation.
I think sometimes at conferences, where people have paid out something like $1000 for fees, hotel room & meals, etc, there can be an urgency to be sure one doesn't miss any of the important talks. It can be hard to spend the entire weekend 'just' playing or hanging out with your child and feel like you got your money's worth.
Sylvia
*****
We've been to only two conferences, and our policy is that either Gary or I stay near our boys to be available for help if we're needed. It's the primary reason I won't go to a conference with our kids but without Gary. Maybe once they're both teens, but not while they're young enough to still need help navigating the social scene. I can see, tho, where it would be easy to leave kids in a situation where things can get overwhelming for the kids, and without help from parents unkindness happens pretty often.
If the Mom just told him he'd be sharing his legos with anyone who might come by, then left him to fend for himself, that created a bad situation.
I think sometimes at conferences, where people have paid out something like $1000 for fees, hotel room & meals, etc, there can be an urgency to be sure one doesn't miss any of the important talks. It can be hard to spend the entire weekend 'just' playing or hanging out with your child and feel like you got your money's worth.
Sylvia
Jenny Cyphers
***I ended up missing a talk I had really wanted to hear, but this seemed more
important. I found the boy's mother (SHE had gone to the talk! grrrrr) and
told her what had been going on for 2 days, that her son was making enemies
and guarding his legos. ***
Well, perhaps she needed that talk a whole lot more than you did!
The thing about conferences is that not everyone there is unschooling. Some people go because they are curious or considering it, some people go because they want to, but they don't quite know how yet. Some people go ONLY to socialize, while others go with the motive of seeing and hearing every speaker, while others go so their kids or themselves can meet other unschoolers. And some people go for a wide mix of all of that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
important. I found the boy's mother (SHE had gone to the talk! grrrrr) and
told her what had been going on for 2 days, that her son was making enemies
and guarding his legos. ***
Well, perhaps she needed that talk a whole lot more than you did!
The thing about conferences is that not everyone there is unschooling. Some people go because they are curious or considering it, some people go because they want to, but they don't quite know how yet. Some people go ONLY to socialize, while others go with the motive of seeing and hearing every speaker, while others go so their kids or themselves can meet other unschoolers. And some people go for a wide mix of all of that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
************************
Well, perhaps she needed that talk a whole lot more than you did!
The thing about conferences is that not everyone there is unschooling. Some people go because they are curious or considering it, some people go because they want to, but they don't quite know how yet. Some people go ONLY to socialize, while others go with the motive of seeing and hearing every speaker, while others go so their kids or themselves can meet other unschoolers. And some people go for a wide mix of all of that!*************************************************
and some come thinking they are the epitomy of radical unschoolers, whose kids can just be let loose alone, at a conference, and they don't even see what's happening. at that same conference, i did quite a bit of conflict resolution between VERY young kids who were on the verge of, or already pounding each other over toys - having been left alone in the playroom for hours on end. i didn't even bring my then TEN year old to the conference, both because he wouldn't have enjoyed it, and because he needs more support with social situations than he would have graciously accepted in such a public setting. but when he was FOUR? i'd have been there, within ear shot, and support range, every single minute. to not do that is not unschooling - it's unparenting.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well, perhaps she needed that talk a whole lot more than you did!
The thing about conferences is that not everyone there is unschooling. Some people go because they are curious or considering it, some people go because they want to, but they don't quite know how yet. Some people go ONLY to socialize, while others go with the motive of seeing and hearing every speaker, while others go so their kids or themselves can meet other unschoolers. And some people go for a wide mix of all of that!*************************************************
and some come thinking they are the epitomy of radical unschoolers, whose kids can just be let loose alone, at a conference, and they don't even see what's happening. at that same conference, i did quite a bit of conflict resolution between VERY young kids who were on the verge of, or already pounding each other over toys - having been left alone in the playroom for hours on end. i didn't even bring my then TEN year old to the conference, both because he wouldn't have enjoyed it, and because he needs more support with social situations than he would have graciously accepted in such a public setting. but when he was FOUR? i'd have been there, within ear shot, and support range, every single minute. to not do that is not unschooling - it's unparenting.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Yes. Even my 14-year-old has trouble negotiating some social aspects
> and some come thinking they are the epitomy of radical unschoolers,
> whose kids can just be let loose alone, at a conference, and they
> don't even see what's happening.
of conferences. Things donʻt always go smoothly. I feel lucky that I
have a circle of parent-friends who are connected to her if Iʻm not
available right that moment, who kindly either help her or come to get
me if Iʻm not right in the vicinity. We have kid-friends who look out
for her, too, like Chamille.
> at that same conference, i did quite a bit of conflict resolutionMichelle is sometimes unwilling to accept public support from me when
> between VERY young kids who were on the verge of, or already
> pounding each other over toys - having been left alone in the
> playroom for hours on end. i didn't even bring my then TEN year old
> to the conference, both because he wouldn't have enjoyed it, and
> because he needs more support with social situations than he would
> have graciously accepted in such a public setting.
frustration gets the better of her. We have worked over time to find
the best ways to be helpful to her, when sheʻs reached that point (and
it can happen *fast*). Iʻve had some spectacular failures (at least in
my mind) at being what she needed and when. We went to the first
conference in St. Louis when she was 10, she didnʻt care to go back
and neither did I, frankly. We went to the first Life is Good (at the
last minute) when she was 12, because going with her friends sounded
appealing. It held challenging moments for us. But, LiG is something
she looks forward to every year, now. *She* wants to go the most out
of all of us. And each year, she is handling her challenges with more
grace. I am, too!
I would totally encourage the idea of going with trustworthy friends
to a crazy place like a conference. Folks who can be there when you or
your kids might be overwhelmed. Friends with whom you can trade off
for talks or take a break. Iʻve learned so much from everyone whoʻs
filled that role for me and it has made our conference experience
easier and more fun.
> but when he was FOUR? i'd have been there, within ear shot, andThere is a difference between accepting assistance from people with
> support range, every single minute. to not do that is not
> unschooling - it's unparenting.
>
whom youʻve already made some kind of arrangement, tacit or not, and
expecting all other parents to take up your slack because "weʻre all
unschoolers." Leaving a child completely alone to fend for themselves
has nothing to do with unschooling. I guess that falls under the topic
of "what unschoolers owe other unschoolers."
Robin B.