from Enel/Rannalearning: Happy to join you ... with a lot of questions
Sandra Dodd
This was posted to the chatnote list. I've brought it here and will
copy the author on responses until she joins here.
I am new to homeschooling and after short CAVA experience quickly
moved to
unschooling my kids (6 and 17, plus little 2 :) once I found out that
there are
other legal ways for schooling in this country and state.
We're taking it slow now and licking our wounds. I'm still educating
myself and
finding more support.
I am very happy to find Sandra Dodd who supports my understanding of
parenting
and schooling my kids! Through my parenting years I've been criticized
and put
down by my in-laws and even by my husband about my parenting ways (I'm
from
Europe and my parents and siblings and friends are far!)... but I've
stood
strong most of the times and am very happy to find out that there ARE
people
like me!
My husband is starting to see that there might be a point to my gentle
and
loving approach since all other has failed. He still needs a lot of
time, I'm
gently surrounding him with info about unshooling and about parenting
approach
very foreign and strange to him.
Next step will be to order your book, Sandra! I've been just
overwhelmed with
all the good info and support on your page, I think that the book
would be
easier to handle. I just need to convince my husband first about the
necessity
of this expense during these financially tough times.
There are many-many questions that I still have, but I'll start off
with most
pressing and current one:
We go to the "Estonian House" every other weekend to learn my native
language
and to connect with other Estonians. It is very mellow and easy
environment and
my kids love it!
Right now we're preparing for the Christmas party with songs to sing
and dances
to dance. All is good and fun but the dance part... The instructing
lady is a
very sweet woman with an autistic kid and mom who is struggling with
cancer. She
is wonderful to be around and the kids seem to like her too for now.
But her ways to instruct are very rigid and stern. She does not yell
or raise
voice, but sternly stops the whole dance and scolds once one of the
kids is
making a mistake or getting a little giddy or bouncy. My poor Tom (6
yr old)! He
is a tall kid looking older for his age and he's very lively. He
learns best
when moving too. Hyperactive and disruptive, they called him in
kindergarten :(
where he developed obsessive-compulsive disorder signs when under
stress and not
able to explain his emotions.
Tommy is still excited to go and dance with the group but I fear of
the moment
when he'll come crying and never wanting to do it again.
What to do? She seems so hard for me to approach about this issue
especially
that she is volunteering to do this. And pulling my kid out of the
dance would
brake his heart. I thought teaching him the dance by myself to prepare
him, but
it's kind of hard without the group ... and that still doesn't change
who he is
while dancing, that happy goof :)
My teen is in a similar situation where his counselor is signing
"homework" to
him that my kid is not too excited to do. The counselor knows that I'm
homeschooling now and wants to see the academics to be involved to get
him out
of being "bored", while my teen is far from ready to do assignments.
Shoot me with any ideas or advice, please.
Enel
copy the author on responses until she joins here.
I am new to homeschooling and after short CAVA experience quickly
moved to
unschooling my kids (6 and 17, plus little 2 :) once I found out that
there are
other legal ways for schooling in this country and state.
We're taking it slow now and licking our wounds. I'm still educating
myself and
finding more support.
I am very happy to find Sandra Dodd who supports my understanding of
parenting
and schooling my kids! Through my parenting years I've been criticized
and put
down by my in-laws and even by my husband about my parenting ways (I'm
from
Europe and my parents and siblings and friends are far!)... but I've
stood
strong most of the times and am very happy to find out that there ARE
people
like me!
My husband is starting to see that there might be a point to my gentle
and
loving approach since all other has failed. He still needs a lot of
time, I'm
gently surrounding him with info about unshooling and about parenting
approach
very foreign and strange to him.
Next step will be to order your book, Sandra! I've been just
overwhelmed with
all the good info and support on your page, I think that the book
would be
easier to handle. I just need to convince my husband first about the
necessity
of this expense during these financially tough times.
There are many-many questions that I still have, but I'll start off
with most
pressing and current one:
We go to the "Estonian House" every other weekend to learn my native
language
and to connect with other Estonians. It is very mellow and easy
environment and
my kids love it!
Right now we're preparing for the Christmas party with songs to sing
and dances
to dance. All is good and fun but the dance part... The instructing
lady is a
very sweet woman with an autistic kid and mom who is struggling with
cancer. She
is wonderful to be around and the kids seem to like her too for now.
But her ways to instruct are very rigid and stern. She does not yell
or raise
voice, but sternly stops the whole dance and scolds once one of the
kids is
making a mistake or getting a little giddy or bouncy. My poor Tom (6
yr old)! He
is a tall kid looking older for his age and he's very lively. He
learns best
when moving too. Hyperactive and disruptive, they called him in
kindergarten :(
where he developed obsessive-compulsive disorder signs when under
stress and not
able to explain his emotions.
Tommy is still excited to go and dance with the group but I fear of
the moment
when he'll come crying and never wanting to do it again.
What to do? She seems so hard for me to approach about this issue
especially
that she is volunteering to do this. And pulling my kid out of the
dance would
brake his heart. I thought teaching him the dance by myself to prepare
him, but
it's kind of hard without the group ... and that still doesn't change
who he is
while dancing, that happy goof :)
My teen is in a similar situation where his counselor is signing
"homework" to
him that my kid is not too excited to do. The counselor knows that I'm
homeschooling now and wants to see the academics to be involved to get
him out
of being "bored", while my teen is far from ready to do assignments.
Shoot me with any ideas or advice, please.
Enel
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< My teen is in a similar situation where his counselor is signing
"homework" >>>>
Counselor?
What does that mean?
I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of
our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda.
<<<< Tommy is still excited to go and dance with the group but I fear of
the moment
when he'll come crying and never wanting to do it again. >>>>
My daughter (10) has been attending a dance class that she loves since she
was 3. The dance teacher is very gentle with the foundation of her classes
being supporting children's love of movement and creative expression, but
does have rules in class. Jayn has been able to adapt herself to the rules
and was willing to put up with a whole year of a couple of not very nice
girls in the class one year in order to continue dancing.
Now a different girl is returning that Jayn is sorry to see come back
because from Jayn's POV she slows down the whole class. Jayn considers the
other girl to be inattentive, and unenthusiastic. Before when she is in the
class, instructions and choreography had to be repeated - because the girl
seemed never to be watching or listening. They had to repeat steps until she
got them. Jayn wonders if the girl really wants to be there, or if her Mom
is pushing her to go for some reason of her own.
Jayn is considering leaving, but after a lot of crying and expressing to me
the other night, decided to give it a try and see what happens. Sometimes
going through a period of crying and sadness is needed to process feelings.
Crying, especially supported crying, doesn't always mean that the child will
stop, but may be the mechanism that releases enough stress to allow the
child to continue.
Nor does stopping have to mean forever. Sometimes it just means a short
break until the maturity level comes up to such a point where the hoops are
worth jumping through for the child.
Please try to let go of your fear of your child's strong emotions. Just as
peaceful doesn't always mean quiet, happiness doesn't always mean never
crying.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
"homework" >>>>
Counselor?
What does that mean?
I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of
our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda.
<<<< Tommy is still excited to go and dance with the group but I fear of
the moment
when he'll come crying and never wanting to do it again. >>>>
My daughter (10) has been attending a dance class that she loves since she
was 3. The dance teacher is very gentle with the foundation of her classes
being supporting children's love of movement and creative expression, but
does have rules in class. Jayn has been able to adapt herself to the rules
and was willing to put up with a whole year of a couple of not very nice
girls in the class one year in order to continue dancing.
Now a different girl is returning that Jayn is sorry to see come back
because from Jayn's POV she slows down the whole class. Jayn considers the
other girl to be inattentive, and unenthusiastic. Before when she is in the
class, instructions and choreography had to be repeated - because the girl
seemed never to be watching or listening. They had to repeat steps until she
got them. Jayn wonders if the girl really wants to be there, or if her Mom
is pushing her to go for some reason of her own.
Jayn is considering leaving, but after a lot of crying and expressing to me
the other night, decided to give it a try and see what happens. Sometimes
going through a period of crying and sadness is needed to process feelings.
Crying, especially supported crying, doesn't always mean that the child will
stop, but may be the mechanism that releases enough stress to allow the
child to continue.
Nor does stopping have to mean forever. Sometimes it just means a short
break until the maturity level comes up to such a point where the hoops are
worth jumping through for the child.
Please try to let go of your fear of your child's strong emotions. Just as
peaceful doesn't always mean quiet, happiness doesn't always mean never
crying.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
rannalearning
Thank you, Robyn, for your response to my post.
I apologise for not describing the situations in full detail - didn't want to write too long of a story. Plus I'm a newbie to all of this and English being my second language.
My teen had an IEP in public school and he saw a counselor and psychiatrist in a regular basis. He has no disabilities, but low self esteem and serious depression over years. It did not get better when we enrolled with CAVA. Then I happened to meet a seasoned homeschooler who recommended to take him out of CAVA and start homeschooling by myself. I didn't know before that it was possible or I'd done it years ago!
He still is going to the counselor for now until I know for sure that it's best to stop the service.
Robyn, when you wrote "I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda." I'm not sure if I understood you message right, but it felt like stab. I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it. If I sound incompetent about something you are probably right. But throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what this place is for?
As for my younger son I'm trying to message him also that it is fine to be natural, be himself. We're freshly weaning from strict rules and criticism.
And the dance they do is just very simple cute part of the Christmas party for all the kids to participate in - its more like a dance-game to a national folk music. they hold hands, twirl around, walk in to a tight circle and out again ... It's far from serious dance class, like you describe your daughter is doing. My son has never expressed any interest in more serious dancing, doesn't seem to be in him (while my daughter is just 2 but will probably follow the same path as your daughter, I can see). He is more of a sports and games boy-boy. He just wants to be in the group and have fun, like I see is totally appropriate in this low-key home-like place and situation. And the kids are from 6 to about 15 yrs old, girls and boys with different skills. They will not even wear special outfits for the event.
The "instructor" just seems to just take it a little too seriously.
Correct me if I understood your response wrong. And in that case my deepest apologies.
Sincerely,
Enel
I apologise for not describing the situations in full detail - didn't want to write too long of a story. Plus I'm a newbie to all of this and English being my second language.
My teen had an IEP in public school and he saw a counselor and psychiatrist in a regular basis. He has no disabilities, but low self esteem and serious depression over years. It did not get better when we enrolled with CAVA. Then I happened to meet a seasoned homeschooler who recommended to take him out of CAVA and start homeschooling by myself. I didn't know before that it was possible or I'd done it years ago!
He still is going to the counselor for now until I know for sure that it's best to stop the service.
Robyn, when you wrote "I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda." I'm not sure if I understood you message right, but it felt like stab. I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it. If I sound incompetent about something you are probably right. But throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what this place is for?
As for my younger son I'm trying to message him also that it is fine to be natural, be himself. We're freshly weaning from strict rules and criticism.
And the dance they do is just very simple cute part of the Christmas party for all the kids to participate in - its more like a dance-game to a national folk music. they hold hands, twirl around, walk in to a tight circle and out again ... It's far from serious dance class, like you describe your daughter is doing. My son has never expressed any interest in more serious dancing, doesn't seem to be in him (while my daughter is just 2 but will probably follow the same path as your daughter, I can see). He is more of a sports and games boy-boy. He just wants to be in the group and have fun, like I see is totally appropriate in this low-key home-like place and situation. And the kids are from 6 to about 15 yrs old, girls and boys with different skills. They will not even wear special outfits for the event.
The "instructor" just seems to just take it a little too seriously.
Correct me if I understood your response wrong. And in that case my deepest apologies.
Sincerely,
Enel
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< My teen is in a similar situation where his counselor is signing
> "homework" >>>>
>
> Counselor?
>
> What does that mean?
>
> I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of
> our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda.
>
> <<<< Tommy is still excited to go and dance with the group but I fear of
> the moment
> when he'll come crying and never wanting to do it again. >>>>
>
> My daughter (10) has been attending a dance class that she loves since she
> was 3. The dance teacher is very gentle with the foundation of her classes
> being supporting children's love of movement and creative expression, but
> does have rules in class. Jayn has been able to adapt herself to the rules
> and was willing to put up with a whole year of a couple of not very nice
> girls in the class one year in order to continue dancing.
>
> Now a different girl is returning that Jayn is sorry to see come back
> because from Jayn's POV she slows down the whole class. Jayn considers the
> other girl to be inattentive, and unenthusiastic. Before when she is in the
> class, instructions and choreography had to be repeated - because the girl
> seemed never to be watching or listening. They had to repeat steps until she
> got them. Jayn wonders if the girl really wants to be there, or if her Mom
> is pushing her to go for some reason of her own.
>
> Jayn is considering leaving, but after a lot of crying and expressing to me
> the other night, decided to give it a try and see what happens. Sometimes
> going through a period of crying and sadness is needed to process feelings.
> Crying, especially supported crying, doesn't always mean that the child will
> stop, but may be the mechanism that releases enough stress to allow the
> child to continue.
>
> Nor does stopping have to mean forever. Sometimes it just means a short
> break until the maturity level comes up to such a point where the hoops are
> worth jumping through for the child.
>
> Please try to let go of your fear of your child's strong emotions. Just as
> peaceful doesn't always mean quiet, happiness doesn't always mean never
> crying.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The "instructor" just seems to just take it a little too seriously.
-=-
If your son doesn't mind, then it doesn't matter. If he does, then
that instruction and seriousness could potentially undermine
unschooling.
If your other son's counselor is giving homework, I'm guessing it
bothers you more than your son. But same there; if it doesn't bother
him, it doesn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-
If your son doesn't mind, then it doesn't matter. If he does, then
that instruction and seriousness could potentially undermine
unschooling.
If your other son's counselor is giving homework, I'm guessing it
bothers you more than your son. But same there; if it doesn't bother
him, it doesn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm not sure if I understood you message right, but it felt like
stab. I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my
kids in it. If I sound incompetent about something you are probably
right. But throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what
this place is for?-=-
This place is for each person who reads to learn, not for the rest of
us to "educate" a person.
What the list is for is described on the front page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Although people very often do find answers to particular questions
concerning their children's situations, the way the list works is that
a situation is presented and we find the principles within it, and
discuss how various unschooling ideas could have made it different,
and better. Any question or situation can turn to discussions of
other things.
It's a philosophy discussion, not a help desk.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stab. I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my
kids in it. If I sound incompetent about something you are probably
right. But throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what
this place is for?-=-
This place is for each person who reads to learn, not for the rest of
us to "educate" a person.
What the list is for is described on the front page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Although people very often do find answers to particular questions
concerning their children's situations, the way the list works is that
a situation is presented and we find the principles within it, and
discuss how various unschooling ideas could have made it different,
and better. Any question or situation can turn to discussions of
other things.
It's a philosophy discussion, not a help desk.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
Robyn, when you wrote "I tend to want to keep people who actively undermine our unschooling out of our life. Jayn historically reacts poorly to people with a teaching agenda." I'm not sure if I understood you message right, but it felt like stab. I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it. If I sound incompetent about something you are probably right. But throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what this place is for?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*********************************
i thought she meant the counselor/teacher! not you!
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*********************************
i thought she meant the counselor/teacher! not you!
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Not Robyn, but I took it to mean that someone like a counselor (your
> Robyn, when you wrote "I tend to want to keep people who actively
> undermine our unschooling out of our life. Jayn historically reacts
> poorly to people with a teaching agenda." I'm not sure if I
> understood you message right, but it felt like stab. I do not
> undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it.
> If I sound incompetent about something you are probably right. But
> throw me a bone here, educate me. I thought that's what this place
> is for?
>
son is seeing one?) can undermine unschooling. In other words, if
*they* are pushing teaching that can impact *your* unschooling.
But perhaps Robyn will clarify.
Robin B.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<<I 'm not sure if I understood you message right, but it felt like stab.
I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it.
Enel's brand new unschooling.
It's hard enough to deschool yourself and get to happy unschooling without
someone from the pre-unschooling days actively trying to drag you back to a
schooly mindset. Is it academic type homework or is it therapy exercises?
I thought I read that your son was not keen on doing the homework. That is
the important issue. Maybe you could talk to the counsellor about that.
It's easy when you have been in a schooling situation for a number of years,
to start believing that experts have more knowledge than your own heart, and
your child's self-knowledge - that they must and should be deferred to in
all things. One of the big parts of home schooling, even unschooling, is the
choice to renounce the assumed superiority of experts in our lives and take
responsibility ourselves for our choices and decisions.
My husband and I are responsible for our daughter's education. We are not
pushing off the responsibility to schools and teachers. Nor are we blaming
all kinds of external forces for anything that might go wrong either. It is
our responsibility.
Becoming your child's advocate, when school culture has spent many years
pushing you to be a school collaborator at best, silent witness at least,
and finding the courage to stand up to experts (like the counsellor) about
your child's happiness, is harder than going with the familiar flow. You
have taken the first steps by renouncing CAVA (whatever that is).
I think you should consider whether or not the emotional problems such as
depression that your son was suffering might have been all bound up in,
maybe even caused by, his school experience. *If so* keeping a big part of
that schooly experience in his life, fueled by the counsellor, might be
counterproductive.
I wonder if it would be possible to find a new therapist who is more
understanding and informed about alternative education and natural learning.
<<<< It's far from serious dance class, like you describe your daughter is
doing. >>>>
Evidently I didn't make my daughter's dance class description very clear
either. The class itself is certainly not "serious dance" - it is creative
movement for self expression and in the younger years it is pretty much ring
around the rosie to music. There is a lot of play and improvisation. But
they do all learn a dance for the family recital. Often the kids help with
the choreography.
But that's not the point I was making. I wasn't making a judgement of
whether the class facilitator was too serious or the class too structured.
You younger son is enjoying himself for now, isn't he?
The point I was making was to not be afraid of tears because sometimes they
are part of the necessary process of growth and thinking through choices.
The goal is to be a safe place (the safest place) for your kids to talk over
their quandraries and difficult decisions. Sometimes that means being
willing to listen while they cry about them.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
I do not undermine unschooling, or I'd not involve myself and my kids in it.
>>>>>Thanks Lyla, I totally meant the counsellor sounded like he was undermining
Enel's brand new unschooling.
It's hard enough to deschool yourself and get to happy unschooling without
someone from the pre-unschooling days actively trying to drag you back to a
schooly mindset. Is it academic type homework or is it therapy exercises?
I thought I read that your son was not keen on doing the homework. That is
the important issue. Maybe you could talk to the counsellor about that.
It's easy when you have been in a schooling situation for a number of years,
to start believing that experts have more knowledge than your own heart, and
your child's self-knowledge - that they must and should be deferred to in
all things. One of the big parts of home schooling, even unschooling, is the
choice to renounce the assumed superiority of experts in our lives and take
responsibility ourselves for our choices and decisions.
My husband and I are responsible for our daughter's education. We are not
pushing off the responsibility to schools and teachers. Nor are we blaming
all kinds of external forces for anything that might go wrong either. It is
our responsibility.
Becoming your child's advocate, when school culture has spent many years
pushing you to be a school collaborator at best, silent witness at least,
and finding the courage to stand up to experts (like the counsellor) about
your child's happiness, is harder than going with the familiar flow. You
have taken the first steps by renouncing CAVA (whatever that is).
I think you should consider whether or not the emotional problems such as
depression that your son was suffering might have been all bound up in,
maybe even caused by, his school experience. *If so* keeping a big part of
that schooly experience in his life, fueled by the counsellor, might be
counterproductive.
I wonder if it would be possible to find a new therapist who is more
understanding and informed about alternative education and natural learning.
<<<< It's far from serious dance class, like you describe your daughter is
doing. >>>>
Evidently I didn't make my daughter's dance class description very clear
either. The class itself is certainly not "serious dance" - it is creative
movement for self expression and in the younger years it is pretty much ring
around the rosie to music. There is a lot of play and improvisation. But
they do all learn a dance for the family recital. Often the kids help with
the choreography.
But that's not the point I was making. I wasn't making a judgement of
whether the class facilitator was too serious or the class too structured.
You younger son is enjoying himself for now, isn't he?
The point I was making was to not be afraid of tears because sometimes they
are part of the necessary process of growth and thinking through choices.
The goal is to be a safe place (the safest place) for your kids to talk over
their quandraries and difficult decisions. Sometimes that means being
willing to listen while they cry about them.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 11/8/2009 7:50 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
questions, though, so it can feel to the original poster like it is ALL
about them and only them. It helps if people remember that we don't know
their entire back story and so our discussion is based on how we see the
general principles of unschooling applying to what they've presented.
Also, what someone presents is very often not just what they think they
are telling us, but we are responding, also, to the "way" they describe it.
A really good way to "take" the advice given on this list is to try to
figure out what, in your own post, led someone to think that their
response would be helpful. Wonder about that - go back and read your own
posts from that perspective. Ask yourself if there IS a way that advice
could be useful. Lower your defenses - it really isn't personal and is
only about you to the extent that YOU recognize it as being about you.
-pam
> Although people very often do find answers to particular questionsWe do talk about the particular situation and often ask additional
> concerning their children's situations, the way the list works is that
> a situation is presented and we find the principles within it, and
> discuss how various unschooling ideas could have made it different,
> and better. Any question or situation can turn to discussions of
> other things.
>
questions, though, so it can feel to the original poster like it is ALL
about them and only them. It helps if people remember that we don't know
their entire back story and so our discussion is based on how we see the
general principles of unschooling applying to what they've presented.
Also, what someone presents is very often not just what they think they
are telling us, but we are responding, also, to the "way" they describe it.
A really good way to "take" the advice given on this list is to try to
figure out what, in your own post, led someone to think that their
response would be helpful. Wonder about that - go back and read your own
posts from that perspective. Ask yourself if there IS a way that advice
could be useful. Lower your defenses - it really isn't personal and is
only about you to the extent that YOU recognize it as being about you.
-pam