Unfooding myself
Martha
Hi everyone,
This is my first post after several months of reading on this list.
We are not unschooling yet because my daughter is only 17 months old and am still working on making the shift in my thinking from traditional education to simply learning while living.
The idea of unfooding is the first thing I have really begun to grasp and I am already loosening up any controlling thoughts I have toward my daughter's eating habits. I give her sweets whenever we have them. I try to offer her a variety of food as much as possible and I don't force her to eat certain foods. (As if I could anyway.)
If we have meat and vegetables and fruits and then a dessert and she eats one or two bites of the main meal and still wants her cookie, I let her have it. I do still try to encourage her to eat the healthy portions. Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more of the "good" stuff. :)
However, I believe that in order to properly unfood, I should truly understand it. In order to do that, I am working on using the concept for myself as well.
My question to you all is this:
Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging?
I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.
I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of some of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food.
I look forward to your thoughts and suggestions.
Best, Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
This is my first post after several months of reading on this list.
We are not unschooling yet because my daughter is only 17 months old and am still working on making the shift in my thinking from traditional education to simply learning while living.
The idea of unfooding is the first thing I have really begun to grasp and I am already loosening up any controlling thoughts I have toward my daughter's eating habits. I give her sweets whenever we have them. I try to offer her a variety of food as much as possible and I don't force her to eat certain foods. (As if I could anyway.)
If we have meat and vegetables and fruits and then a dessert and she eats one or two bites of the main meal and still wants her cookie, I let her have it. I do still try to encourage her to eat the healthy portions. Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more of the "good" stuff. :)
However, I believe that in order to properly unfood, I should truly understand it. In order to do that, I am working on using the concept for myself as well.
My question to you all is this:
Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging?
I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.
I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of some of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food.
I look forward to your thoughts and suggestions.
Best, Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 19, 2009, at 3:41 PM, Martha wrote:
brand new made up concept of unfooding.
whenever you have it? I think I know what you mean, but rather than
elevating sweets above other foods in retaliation to having lowered
them beneath the category of food, just see sweets as food. :-)
They're just another choice she can make.
proved I couldn't be trusted around candy. But what it proved was
that if I limited myself to candy just at Halloween, I'd scarf down
as much as I could before it disappeared for a year.
I had a craving for Almond M&Ms and seemed I couldn't get enough. So
I bought 2 big bags and promised myself I could have more if I ran
out. I did get tired of them!
We now keep Dove miniatures (really nice chocolates) freely available
in a bowl that I really love but rarely have one.
you're bound to miss and you will have failed. But a better is
doable :-)
We all have issues about something. They go deep and are tangled up
around other stuff but working at them bit by bit can make them better.
Joyce
> Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves?It might help you think clearer by calling it choices rather than a
brand new made up concept of unfooding.
> I give her sweets whenever we have them.Do you give her olives whenever you have them? Do you give her cheese
>
whenever you have it? I think I know what you mean, but rather than
elevating sweets above other foods in retaliation to having lowered
them beneath the category of food, just see sweets as food. :-)
They're just another choice she can make.
> Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What wereI once ate 3 bags of Halloween candy before Halloween. I thought that
> some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for
> instance, did you go through a process of binging?
>
proved I couldn't be trusted around candy. But what it proved was
that if I limited myself to candy just at Halloween, I'd scarf down
as much as I could before it disappeared for a year.
I had a craving for Almond M&Ms and seemed I couldn't get enough. So
I bought 2 big bags and promised myself I could have more if I ran
out. I did get tired of them!
We now keep Dove miniatures (really nice chocolates) freely available
in a bowl that I really love but rarely have one.
> I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of someRather than shooting for perfect, why not aim for better? Perfect
> of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food.
>
you're bound to miss and you will have failed. But a better is
doable :-)
We all have issues about something. They go deep and are tangled up
around other stuff but working at them bit by bit can make them better.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were
some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance,
did you go through a process of binging? -=-
I saw how my kids would turn food down if they weren't really hungry.
I saw them eat a little and leave the rest. I knew that the way food
was presented and treated, and the way I was treated as a child, led
me to an unhealthy relationship with food.
-=-I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery
store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't
afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter
healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.
-=-
You want to change a rule that says only buy healthy food to a rule
that says buy everything that looks good.
Neither is the way to go. Maybe buy one thing just because you want
it, but don't feel obligated to eat it all just because you bought it.
-=-Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging? =-
There's not "a process of bingeing." It's that if a person has been
controlled, there can be a reaction. Sometimes kids will sneak whole
bags of chips or whole bags of cookies. College kids will eat what
they couldn't eat at home.
A 17 month old girl who hasn't been limited is unlikely to binge.
Instead of looking at food as the central issue, look at choices. You
make choices every moment. You can make a choice when you pick food
up, and when you take a bite. You could spit the bite out. You could
chew it really well and taste it, or you could chomp it down. You
could stop, or go. You don't have to finish a donut just because you
start one.
-=-I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of some
of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food. -=-
I'm sure it is!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance,
did you go through a process of binging? -=-
I saw how my kids would turn food down if they weren't really hungry.
I saw them eat a little and leave the rest. I knew that the way food
was presented and treated, and the way I was treated as a child, led
me to an unhealthy relationship with food.
-=-I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery
store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't
afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter
healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.
-=-
You want to change a rule that says only buy healthy food to a rule
that says buy everything that looks good.
Neither is the way to go. Maybe buy one thing just because you want
it, but don't feel obligated to eat it all just because you bought it.
-=-Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging? =-
There's not "a process of bingeing." It's that if a person has been
controlled, there can be a reaction. Sometimes kids will sneak whole
bags of chips or whole bags of cookies. College kids will eat what
they couldn't eat at home.
A 17 month old girl who hasn't been limited is unlikely to binge.
Instead of looking at food as the central issue, look at choices. You
make choices every moment. You can make a choice when you pick food
up, and when you take a bite. You could spit the bite out. You could
chew it really well and taste it, or you could chomp it down. You
could stop, or go. You don't have to finish a donut just because you
start one.
-=-I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of some
of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food. -=-
I'm sure it is!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more ofI'm not sure why you put the quotes around the word good, but I don't think it's good idea to put food under the headings of good and bad. I believe that could cause guilty feelings when a bad food is consumed.
> the "good" stuff. :)
> Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What wereWe have never controlled food so I am not sure how to go about that. I fed/nursed when my children wanted to eat. When they were toddlers and seemed too busy playing to take time to eat, I put out finger foods to snack on throughout the day. I kept food easy to reach on the lowest shelf in the pantry and the refrigerator. Are you worried about eating too much yourself, or are you worried about your daughter? I can't imagine a 17 month old scarfing down food because you put it out. I think kids are better at eating when they are hungry than adults. They don't have the hang-ups that some adults do, perhaps because their food was controlled when they were kids?
> some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for
> instance, did you go through a process of binging?
> I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the groceryIf I were to buy everything that looks good to me, I'd be spending a very large amount of money each week! *laugh* Have you noticed your daughter having food preferences? Is there anything she doesn't like? My 11 yr. old hates green beans. I can't imagine forcing her to eat them because I think they are good for her. There are so many food choices! Do you avoid buying cookies or similar sweets because they are bad for her? I try to keep lots of different foods in the house and we stay within our grocery budget. If my children ask for something special that is not in the house, we put it on our grocery list and pick it up on the next shopping trip. We've also been known to run to the store just to get something craved, like birthday cake for me. :)
> store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I
> can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my
> daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.
> I wonder if it is truly possible to completely rid myself of someWell, you are beginning to face those attitudes. That seems like a good place to start. Ask yourself why you feel that way. Was it the way you lived growing up? This may be alot like examining unschooling when you are used to the schooled way of life. It is not always easy, but it certainly is doable.
> of the bad habits/guilt/control I have toward food.
Beth M.
Kristi
"Martha" <martha_h9@...> wrote:
I would suggest trying to not consider any one sort of food "good" or "bad" but just food, at least when it comes to how you speak about it to your daughter. In my house we keep sweets available at all times, along with a huge variety of other foods. I have found that my girls (ages 7 and 4) are quite self-regulating when it come to sweets. They often go days without having any, and there might be times when they want sweets more frequently. Because we place no importance on sweets, they are just as likely to choose almonds or smoked oysters to eat as a bar of chocolate, it just depends upon their mood, the time of the day, the craving at the moment, or what they might have just read or seen someone else do!
Having a variety of food choices available in your home doesn't have to be expensive. Lots of different kinds of beans, fruits, veggies, nuts, dried fruits, fruit leathers, pastas, cheeses, crackers, taquitos, tortillas, frozen peas, frozen raviolis, soups etc. are easy to keep handy.
> I am already loosening up any controlling thoughts I have toward my daughter's eating habits.Working on your thoughts to create change within you is a great place to start. I suspect that if your daughter is like most 17 month olds, she eats when she is hungry and does not when she is not. If you provide your daughter with a variety of food choices--all kinds of foods from all kinds of food groups, she will have the opportunity to experiment with different flavors, textures, colors, etc. Eating habits are developed over periods of time and likely will change with the seasons, and over the years. If you provide your daughter with a variety of foods, and place no importance on one kind of food over another, she will likely be a healthy and adventurous eater (by adventurous I mean non-picky and able to be satisfied by the many food options out there.)
> I do still try to encourage her to eat the healthy portions. Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more of the "good" stuff. :)Naomi Aldort speaks about how parents often inadvertently make food a reward. When we say, "if you eat two more bites of salad, then you can have your cookie," we are sending the message that there is something wrong with the salad because a reward will be offered by eating it. She also quotes studies that show that when kids are offered a bribe or a reward for trying a new food, they are unlikely to want to try that particular food again, even with a bribe.
I would suggest trying to not consider any one sort of food "good" or "bad" but just food, at least when it comes to how you speak about it to your daughter. In my house we keep sweets available at all times, along with a huge variety of other foods. I have found that my girls (ages 7 and 4) are quite self-regulating when it come to sweets. They often go days without having any, and there might be times when they want sweets more frequently. Because we place no importance on sweets, they are just as likely to choose almonds or smoked oysters to eat as a bar of chocolate, it just depends upon their mood, the time of the day, the craving at the moment, or what they might have just read or seen someone else do!
> However, I believe that in order to properly unfood, I should truly understand it. In order to do that, I am working on using the concept for myself as well.I have to say unfooding is an interesting word that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Unfooding sounds more like starving oneself. Because I'm such a "foody" it would be hard for me to work on that concept!! :)
Having a variety of food choices available in your home doesn't have to be expensive. Lots of different kinds of beans, fruits, veggies, nuts, dried fruits, fruit leathers, pastas, cheeses, crackers, taquitos, tortillas, frozen peas, frozen raviolis, soups etc. are easy to keep handy.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Naomi Aldort speaks about how parents often inadvertently make food
a reward. When we say, "if you eat two more bites of salad, then you
can have your cookie," we are sending the message that there is
something wrong with the salad because a reward will be offered by
eating it.-=-
Good point! And by putting values on foods, parents are often passing
on fallacies or the current fads of nutritional belief, which have
changed constantly in my lifetime. Every part of a burger and every
part of a pizza has been considered life-giving AND deadly at one
point or another in the past 45 years.
Pam Sorooshian wrote something wonderful on the value of things--not
assigned values or alleged values:
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
-=-Because we place no importance on sweets, they are just as likely
to choose almonds or smoked oysters to eat as a bar of chocolate, it
just depends upon their mood, the time of the day, the craving at the
moment, or what they might have just read or seen someone else do! =-
Hundreds of times I've seen this.
There are stories galore here:
http://sandradodd.com/food
and ideas for what to offer in way of monkey platters and protein
snacks:
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
http://sandradodd.com/eating/protein
Kristi, I loved your whole post but I feel obliged to point at one word:
-=- I have found that my girls (ages 7 and 4) are quite self-
regulating when it come to sweets. They often go days without having
any, and there might be times when they want sweets more frequently.-=-
"Self-regulating" is a fully-loaded and dangerous concept. I would
like to request that when you're writing on this list (and maybe other
times) you reconsider its use. Maybe you could say your girls make
choices.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a reward. When we say, "if you eat two more bites of salad, then you
can have your cookie," we are sending the message that there is
something wrong with the salad because a reward will be offered by
eating it.-=-
Good point! And by putting values on foods, parents are often passing
on fallacies or the current fads of nutritional belief, which have
changed constantly in my lifetime. Every part of a burger and every
part of a pizza has been considered life-giving AND deadly at one
point or another in the past 45 years.
Pam Sorooshian wrote something wonderful on the value of things--not
assigned values or alleged values:
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
-=-Because we place no importance on sweets, they are just as likely
to choose almonds or smoked oysters to eat as a bar of chocolate, it
just depends upon their mood, the time of the day, the craving at the
moment, or what they might have just read or seen someone else do! =-
Hundreds of times I've seen this.
There are stories galore here:
http://sandradodd.com/food
and ideas for what to offer in way of monkey platters and protein
snacks:
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
http://sandradodd.com/eating/protein
Kristi, I loved your whole post but I feel obliged to point at one word:
-=- I have found that my girls (ages 7 and 4) are quite self-
regulating when it come to sweets. They often go days without having
any, and there might be times when they want sweets more frequently.-=-
"Self-regulating" is a fully-loaded and dangerous concept. I would
like to request that when you're writing on this list (and maybe other
times) you reconsider its use. Maybe you could say your girls make
choices.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***If we have meat and vegetables and fruits and then a dessert and she eats one or two bites of the main meal and still wants her cookie, I let her have it. I do still try to encourage her to eat the healthy portions. Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more of the "good" stuff. :)***
One way to avoid this dynamic of good food/bad food, is to offer it all on the plate or table as part of the meal. If cookies are to be part of the meal, then make it so. If the parent is the one putting food on a plate for the small child, then put a little of everything on it, including the cookies if they were intended as the dessert part of the meal. If it's a sit down dinner and a table with all the food out and available and a kid can dish themselves up, let them do it however they like. They'll eventually get the right quantities down.
One of the biggest issues that I've seen with dessert and saving the cookies for afterward, is that, if you are eating until you are full, and kids will do that naturally, then adding more food on top of that isn't the healthiest thing to do. Few kids will turn down cookies if they are offered after they've eaten, if that's the only time they get offered. If cookies or dessert is offered at the time of the meal, kids will still eat until they feel full, only they'll have consumed the right amount of calories for their bodies in that one sitting, and not add to it after they are already full.
***Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging?***
People react to controlled food environments. When I moved out of my parents house, I ate whatever I wanted, which included many things that I shouldn't have eaten. Many years later I suffered greatly from that. It's a lot to undo that conditioning, if you've grown up with it. I realized for my own children, even though my own body and my own thoughts were still recovering, that they should eat what they wanted, when they wanted it.
***I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.***
I'd say, think in terms of meal planning. What looks good to you? Find a way to make it. If you are the kind of person who gets stuck in the baked goods section of the grocery store, maybe you should start making more of those things at home to indulge you own cravings with the added bonus of being able to put your own ingredients into those things, to make them more nutritious. There are really simple things that can be done, like using applesauce instead of oil for things like muffins and cakes.
Think instead of not buying something because it's "bad" for you, think of it as being inspired to create that item for yourself and your children because you KNOW you will enjoy it and it will create joy and pleasant smells and memories.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One way to avoid this dynamic of good food/bad food, is to offer it all on the plate or table as part of the meal. If cookies are to be part of the meal, then make it so. If the parent is the one putting food on a plate for the small child, then put a little of everything on it, including the cookies if they were intended as the dessert part of the meal. If it's a sit down dinner and a table with all the food out and available and a kid can dish themselves up, let them do it however they like. They'll eventually get the right quantities down.
One of the biggest issues that I've seen with dessert and saving the cookies for afterward, is that, if you are eating until you are full, and kids will do that naturally, then adding more food on top of that isn't the healthiest thing to do. Few kids will turn down cookies if they are offered after they've eaten, if that's the only time they get offered. If cookies or dessert is offered at the time of the meal, kids will still eat until they feel full, only they'll have consumed the right amount of calories for their bodies in that one sitting, and not add to it after they are already full.
***Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging?***
People react to controlled food environments. When I moved out of my parents house, I ate whatever I wanted, which included many things that I shouldn't have eaten. Many years later I suffered greatly from that. It's a lot to undo that conditioning, if you've grown up with it. I realized for my own children, even though my own body and my own thoughts were still recovering, that they should eat what they wanted, when they wanted it.
***I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.***
I'd say, think in terms of meal planning. What looks good to you? Find a way to make it. If you are the kind of person who gets stuck in the baked goods section of the grocery store, maybe you should start making more of those things at home to indulge you own cravings with the added bonus of being able to put your own ingredients into those things, to make them more nutritious. There are really simple things that can be done, like using applesauce instead of oil for things like muffins and cakes.
Think instead of not buying something because it's "bad" for you, think of it as being inspired to create that item for yourself and your children because you KNOW you will enjoy it and it will create joy and pleasant smells and memories.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I was adding quotes to the random quotes generator and came upon this
one:
It's a common thought that kids' choices will
always be the wildest and craziest, but wild and crazy seem to be
reactions to limitations, not to rational assistance.
That was me, in some discussion a month or so ago.
I thought it might help here.
Parents think their kids aren't standing in the middle of the freeway
simply and only because the parents "don't let them" stand in the
middle of the freeway. That attitude puts a barrier between the
parent and child, and that kind of (lack of) thinking puts a barrier
between a parent and her own ability to think clearly.
The random quotes generator has quotes from lots of people on this
list. It's in the upper righthand corner of this:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one:
It's a common thought that kids' choices will
always be the wildest and craziest, but wild and crazy seem to be
reactions to limitations, not to rational assistance.
That was me, in some discussion a month or so ago.
I thought it might help here.
Parents think their kids aren't standing in the middle of the freeway
simply and only because the parents "don't let them" stand in the
middle of the freeway. That attitude puts a barrier between the
parent and child, and that kind of (lack of) thinking puts a barrier
between a parent and her own ability to think clearly.
The random quotes generator has quotes from lots of people on this
list. It's in the upper righthand corner of this:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristi
> "Self-regulating" is a fully-loaded and dangerous concept. I wouldlike to request that when you're writing on this list (and maybe other times) you reconsider its use. Maybe you could say your girls make choices.
Good point, they make choices is a more accurate way to express what is going on.
Martha
Thanks for all the great tips!
Joyce, I love the idea of keeping a bowl of chocolates available so I can have it whenever I want.
Jenny, I also like the idea of putting all the food on the plate at once. I made brownies yesterday and I put my daughter's food on her plate all together, including the brownie. She ate that first, but she did eat all of her meal. It was pretty cool to see that.
I've also stopped telling myself that I can't have certain foods. I went to grocery store this week and I bought a box of cookies that looked good. We ate them all in the first few days. I still wanted chocolate, so I made brownies. It feels great to stop putting limits on myself.
Even though in the past I have tried not to limit my daughter, I have noticed that already my guilty feelings are dissipating when I allow her things that in the past I would have thought of as "bad" and hoped that she would eat lots of "good" stuff too.
Here's to starting down a path to a lifetime of guilt-free eating for my daughter!
Best, Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
Joyce, I love the idea of keeping a bowl of chocolates available so I can have it whenever I want.
Jenny, I also like the idea of putting all the food on the plate at once. I made brownies yesterday and I put my daughter's food on her plate all together, including the brownie. She ate that first, but she did eat all of her meal. It was pretty cool to see that.
I've also stopped telling myself that I can't have certain foods. I went to grocery store this week and I bought a box of cookies that looked good. We ate them all in the first few days. I still wanted chocolate, so I made brownies. It feels great to stop putting limits on myself.
Even though in the past I have tried not to limit my daughter, I have noticed that already my guilty feelings are dissipating when I allow her things that in the past I would have thought of as "bad" and hoped that she would eat lots of "good" stuff too.
Here's to starting down a path to a lifetime of guilt-free eating for my daughter!
Best, Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> ***If we have meat and vegetables and fruits and then a dessert and she eats one or two bites of the main meal and still wants her cookie, I let her have it. I do still try to encourage her to eat the healthy portions. Sometimes she eats her cookie first and then she'll eat more of the "good" stuff. :)***
>
> One way to avoid this dynamic of good food/bad food, is to offer it all on the plate or table as part of the meal. If cookies are to be part of the meal, then make it so. If the parent is the one putting food on a plate for the small child, then put a little of everything on it, including the cookies if they were intended as the dessert part of the meal. If it's a sit down dinner and a table with all the food out and available and a kid can dish themselves up, let them do it however they like. They'll eventually get the right quantities down.
>
> One of the biggest issues that I've seen with dessert and saving the cookies for afterward, is that, if you are eating until you are full, and kids will do that naturally, then adding more food on top of that isn't the healthiest thing to do. Few kids will turn down cookies if they are offered after they've eaten, if that's the only time they get offered. If cookies or dessert is offered at the time of the meal, kids will still eat until they feel full, only they'll have consumed the right amount of calories for their bodies in that one sitting, and not add to it after they are already full.
>
> ***Have you gone through a process of unfooding yourselves? What were some of the steps you took to really get into it? Like for instance, did you go through a process of binging?***
>
> People react to controlled food environments. When I moved out of my parents house, I ate whatever I wanted, which included many things that I shouldn't have eaten. Many years later I suffered greatly from that. It's a lot to undo that conditioning, if you've grown up with it. I realized for my own children, even though my own body and my own thoughts were still recovering, that they should eat what they wanted, when they wanted it.
>
> ***I have thought that in order to do this, I should go to the grocery store and just buy whatever looks good to me. But practically, I can't afford to do that, and in order to continue to offer my daughter healthy choices, that wouldn't be a practical either.***
>
> I'd say, think in terms of meal planning. What looks good to you? Find a way to make it. If you are the kind of person who gets stuck in the baked goods section of the grocery store, maybe you should start making more of those things at home to indulge you own cravings with the added bonus of being able to put your own ingredients into those things, to make them more nutritious. There are really simple things that can be done, like using applesauce instead of oil for things like muffins and cakes.
>
> Think instead of not buying something because it's "bad" for you, think of it as being inspired to create that item for yourself and your children because you KNOW you will enjoy it and it will create joy and pleasant smells and memories.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
We've never been in the habit of "having dessert" at our house, even
when we have company. It's just not the habit. If I make brownies or
cookies or a cake, it's sometimes for an occasion, or sometimes just
for fun, to heat up the house, to have something to do while I'm
waiting for something or someone. And then people can have them when
they want to.
At restaurants we've had good luck letting kids have what they want,
from kid's menu or not, from desserts or breakfast.
Very often we and our kids would surprise waiters by this: The waiter
would come to the table and ask me or Keith if we wanted to see the
dessert menu, or if we'd like to have ice cream, or whatever their
stock question was at that restaurant, and we would look at the kids
for a decision. Usually it was "No thanks," or "Not me, I'm full. Do
you want some?" back to me or Keith.
I guess they were used to parents saying no without even a glance at
the kids. And if our kids said yes, it was happily yes.
Sandra
when we have company. It's just not the habit. If I make brownies or
cookies or a cake, it's sometimes for an occasion, or sometimes just
for fun, to heat up the house, to have something to do while I'm
waiting for something or someone. And then people can have them when
they want to.
At restaurants we've had good luck letting kids have what they want,
from kid's menu or not, from desserts or breakfast.
Very often we and our kids would surprise waiters by this: The waiter
would come to the table and ask me or Keith if we wanted to see the
dessert menu, or if we'd like to have ice cream, or whatever their
stock question was at that restaurant, and we would look at the kids
for a decision. Usually it was "No thanks," or "Not me, I'm full. Do
you want some?" back to me or Keith.
I guess they were used to parents saying no without even a glance at
the kids. And if our kids said yes, it was happily yes.
Sandra
Ed Wendell
Zac is 15 and when he orders a soda at a restaurant the wait staff still looks at us and asks if that is OK? Especially when he asks for refills! He's bigger than either of us - ;)
Lisa W.
I guess they were used to parents saying no without even a glance at
the kids. And if our kids said yes, it was happily yes.
Sandra
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa W.
I guess they were used to parents saying no without even a glance at
the kids. And if our kids said yes, it was happily yes.
Sandra
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
Just a comment on our unfooding: we in our family think that what you choose to put in your body is a very sacred and personal thing. For someone else to presume to control what you eat/drink seems very absurd from that viewpoint. My kids eat what they want, when they want, if at all possible. (Sometimes travel or lack of availability may intervenes but they understand that.) My kids are all slender and seem to have grown pretty well, all on their own 'plan.' Emily, my 12 yo dd, notes that she seems to want to eat more away from home, such as at friends' houses, and theorizes that it's because there seems so much control over the food that it seems a scarce commodity. I had not realized how far we'd come down that road, how at variance we'd become (from most families) until just last night (Halloween). We had friends over, another hs'ing family (they do school at home but aren't critical of us). They have 4 very active boys, who eat
very healthily; their mom sees to that! She has controlled what they ate for years but is 'trying to loosen up.' Anyway I had ordered pizza to share on our front porch while we passed out candy. The youngest child, age 7, is usually an amazingly voracious eater, but was just picking at his pizza unenthusiastically. Without a thought I said, "Mitchell, if you don't feel like pizza or carrots, there is a bucket-load of candy." My friend burst out, "Did you just say that!! What are you thinking!!" She already knows my philosophy, so I just answered that it seemed natural to offer our guests what we have. And it is a special day, too, I added. She couldn't really speak for a while!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
very healthily; their mom sees to that! She has controlled what they ate for years but is 'trying to loosen up.' Anyway I had ordered pizza to share on our front porch while we passed out candy. The youngest child, age 7, is usually an amazingly voracious eater, but was just picking at his pizza unenthusiastically. Without a thought I said, "Mitchell, if you don't feel like pizza or carrots, there is a bucket-load of candy." My friend burst out, "Did you just say that!! What are you thinking!!" She already knows my philosophy, so I just answered that it seemed natural to offer our guests what we have. And it is a special day, too, I added. She couldn't really speak for a while!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Martha
What a great story.
I have a disturbing Halloween story to share.
My daughter is almost 18 months old, so this was really our first Halloween.
We went to a potluck at a friend's house and afterward several of us trick or treated. The children were all under 3 years old.
When we got back from trick or treating, first of all, one of the moms didn't take her son, but they had to wait until we got back because they were riding home with another family. So he had to watch while all of the other kids came in with big bags of candy and he had none.
Then, the other family sat with their 3-yr-old next while she ate her candy. As the evening was coming to a close, they pulled out a trash can and told her that she better hurry up and eat whatever else she wanted because there would be no more until next year.
Then they proceeded to throw all of the candy in the trash in front of her while she cried and screamed that she wanted her free candy!
She bit her mother on the leg during the ordeal. Gee, I wonder why.
I was pretty mortified.
Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
I have a disturbing Halloween story to share.
My daughter is almost 18 months old, so this was really our first Halloween.
We went to a potluck at a friend's house and afterward several of us trick or treated. The children were all under 3 years old.
When we got back from trick or treating, first of all, one of the moms didn't take her son, but they had to wait until we got back because they were riding home with another family. So he had to watch while all of the other kids came in with big bags of candy and he had none.
Then, the other family sat with their 3-yr-old next while she ate her candy. As the evening was coming to a close, they pulled out a trash can and told her that she better hurry up and eat whatever else she wanted because there would be no more until next year.
Then they proceeded to throw all of the candy in the trash in front of her while she cried and screamed that she wanted her free candy!
She bit her mother on the leg during the ordeal. Gee, I wonder why.
I was pretty mortified.
Martha
www.momsoap.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...> wrote:
>
> Just a comment on our unfooding: we in our family think that what you choose to put in your body is a very sacred and personal thing. For someone else to presume to control what you eat/drink seems very absurd from that viewpoint. My kids eat what they want, when they want, if at all possible. (Sometimes travel or lack of availability may intervenes but they understand that.) My kids are all slender and seem to have grown pretty well, all on their own 'plan.' Emily, my 12 yo dd, notes that she seems to want to eat more away from home, such as at friends' houses, and theorizes that it's because there seems so much control over the food that it seems a scarce commodity. I had not realized how far we'd come down that road, how at variance we'd become (from most families) until just last night (Halloween). We had friends over, another hs'ing family (they do school at home but aren't critical of us). They have 4 very active boys, who eat
> very healthily; their mom sees to that! She has controlled what they ate for years but is 'trying to loosen up.' Anyway I had ordered pizza to share on our front porch while we passed out candy. The youngest child, age 7, is usually an amazingly voracious eater, but was just picking at his pizza unenthusiastically. Without a thought I said, "Mitchell, if you don't feel like pizza or carrots, there is a bucket-load of candy." My friend burst out, "Did you just say that!! What are you thinking!!" She already knows my philosophy, so I just answered that it seemed natural to offer our guests what we have. And it is a special day, too, I added. She couldn't really speak for a while!!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<I was pretty mortified.>>>>>
I probably would have left immediately. I would have said we were going home
to enjoy our candy freely. I've left birthday parties (with Jayn's
agreement) where kids were crying instead of happy before. With a toddler
it's easier to go home.
I can't cope with watching people be controlling and horrible. They don't
see it as abuse - after all they are being "good parents" by keeping their
kid healthy. It's hard to argue with, especially when your baby is so much
younger. There is a credibility gap from the pov of the parents with older
kids.
But it's not worth making yourself miserable watching other kids being made
sad. Find more unschoolers to hang out with, especially for events like
this. You will be happier, and your confidence in unschooling will be
strengthened.
Also I would suggest you don't take on "had to's" that belong to other
people. In this case the non-trick or treaters had numerous choices other
than torture their son, including calling a cab to go home.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
I probably would have left immediately. I would have said we were going home
to enjoy our candy freely. I've left birthday parties (with Jayn's
agreement) where kids were crying instead of happy before. With a toddler
it's easier to go home.
I can't cope with watching people be controlling and horrible. They don't
see it as abuse - after all they are being "good parents" by keeping their
kid healthy. It's hard to argue with, especially when your baby is so much
younger. There is a credibility gap from the pov of the parents with older
kids.
But it's not worth making yourself miserable watching other kids being made
sad. Find more unschoolers to hang out with, especially for events like
this. You will be happier, and your confidence in unschooling will be
strengthened.
Also I would suggest you don't take on "had to's" that belong to other
people. In this case the non-trick or treaters had numerous choices other
than torture their son, including calling a cab to go home.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
lalow66
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>I have found situations like that to be difficult in the past. Once we had friends over, and the kids all had candy from something. One mother, yelled to the daughter of one of my friends, as she was running through the house, for her to give a message to her daughter that she was NOT to EAT any of that candy. The little girl that was supposed to relay this message was 3. We all kind of encouraged the mom to relax but the next thing we knew, she was heading off to tell her daughter herself. THis woman is VERY proud of the control she thinks she has over her daughters food intake. Her facebook page after Halloween this year was bragging about how she made her daughter give all her candy away except one piece. All about control.
> <<<<I was pretty mortified.>>>>>
>
> I probably would have left immediately. I would have said we were going home
> to enjoy our candy freely. I've left birthday parties (with Jayn's
> agreement) where kids were crying instead of happy before. With a toddler
> it's easier to go home.
Jenny Cyphers
***THis woman is VERY proud of the control she thinks she has over her daughters food intake. Her facebook page after Halloween this year was bragging about how she made her daughter give all her candy away except one piece. All about control.***
Oh goodness! Tell my daughter and she'll go over there and give her a piece of her mind! I'm kidding only slightly! Yesterday Chamille was reading a FB stat on an unschooling parent's page that was begging parents to let their kids have their Halloween candy and there were a few responses on there from the anti-candy crowd that just rankled Chamille and she said so in a very balsy way! There was one particular mom that Chamille had responded to, who got all defensive and weird about Chamille's comment. I told Chamille about it and she said "Duh, I figured that's how she'd respond, soo typical!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh goodness! Tell my daughter and she'll go over there and give her a piece of her mind! I'm kidding only slightly! Yesterday Chamille was reading a FB stat on an unschooling parent's page that was begging parents to let their kids have their Halloween candy and there were a few responses on there from the anti-candy crowd that just rankled Chamille and she said so in a very balsy way! There was one particular mom that Chamille had responded to, who got all defensive and weird about Chamille's comment. I told Chamille about it and she said "Duh, I figured that's how she'd respond, soo typical!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
<<<<I was pretty mortified.>>>>>
-=-I probably would have left immediately. I would have said we were
going home
to enjoy our candy freely. I've left birthday parties (with Jayn's
agreement) where kids were crying instead of happy before. With a
toddler
it's easier to go home.-=-
I agree with Robyn.
The first few times my kids saw other kids get spanked they were
really upset. That's good!! When I was little it was so common that
other kids might not even bother to look up if another kid was being
swatted or shamed. Don't let your child become accustomed to bad
treatment.
If a mom wants nothing to do with trick or treating she should stay
home, or have a party where all the treats are carrots carved like
jack-o-lanters or something. <G>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I probably would have left immediately. I would have said we were
going home
to enjoy our candy freely. I've left birthday parties (with Jayn's
agreement) where kids were crying instead of happy before. With a
toddler
it's easier to go home.-=-
I agree with Robyn.
The first few times my kids saw other kids get spanked they were
really upset. That's good!! When I was little it was so common that
other kids might not even bother to look up if another kid was being
swatted or shamed. Don't let your child become accustomed to bad
treatment.
If a mom wants nothing to do with trick or treating she should stay
home, or have a party where all the treats are carrots carved like
jack-o-lanters or something. <G>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Tell my daughter and she'll go over there and give her a piece of
her mind!-=-
Just one piece, right? <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
her mind!-=-
Just one piece, right? <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mandy Ray-Jones
Sandra, That was what I was thinking! If the mom didn't like the trick or
treating, just make an alternative holiday or celebration which is what we
did. I hosted the thing so the parents who came only brought healthy
snacks. I think it's borderline cruel to let the child collect the candy
and then throw it out in front of them. I've thrown candy out before but
only after I've given then a trade and then I wait until they have forgotten
about the candy. This year we just didn't "trick or treat" and instead did
other things. No biggie and no hurt feelings. I am pretty anti-artificial
ingredients so I just make sure to have natural treats or whatever on hand
in case we are in a situation. The kids always want to trade out so they
actually get to make the decision themselves. The other stuff tastes weird
to them.
treating, just make an alternative holiday or celebration which is what we
did. I hosted the thing so the parents who came only brought healthy
snacks. I think it's borderline cruel to let the child collect the candy
and then throw it out in front of them. I've thrown candy out before but
only after I've given then a trade and then I wait until they have forgotten
about the candy. This year we just didn't "trick or treat" and instead did
other things. No biggie and no hurt feelings. I am pretty anti-artificial
ingredients so I just make sure to have natural treats or whatever on hand
in case we are in a situation. The kids always want to trade out so they
actually get to make the decision themselves. The other stuff tastes weird
to them.
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=Tell my daughter and she'll go over there and give her a piece of
> her mind!-=-
>
> Just one piece, right? <g>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Mandy Ray-Jones
Artsy Mamas Executive Director and Founder
http://artsymamas.org/
Child of God, Supermom, Wife, Aspiring Natural Nutritionist, Truth Seeker,
Lover of Life, Friend, and Geeky Blogger
http://www.bonafidemama.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think it's borderline cruel to let the child collect the candy
and then throw it out in front of them.-=-
It's not borderline cruel. It's hateful and mean.
It's plain old unadulterated cruelty.
It's more harmful than a pound of artifically flavored food-colored
sugar bombs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and then throw it out in front of them.-=-
It's not borderline cruel. It's hateful and mean.
It's plain old unadulterated cruelty.
It's more harmful than a pound of artifically flavored food-colored
sugar bombs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I think it's borderline cruel to let the child collect the candy
> and then throw it out in front of them.-=-
>
> It's not borderline cruel. It's hateful and mean.
> It's plain old unadulterated cruelty.
>
> It's more harmful than a pound of artifically flavored food-colored
> sugar bombs.
Yesterday, the kids and I were at the Oakland Dia de los Muertos festival.
It's huge, it's loud, it's thoroughly fabulous. And there is, as is typical,
a whole diversity of food, from fried meat things to fried dough things to
artificially-colored sugar-infused mayhem.
My kids had what they wanted. Some polish sausages. A plate of garlic fries.
Cotton candy. Horchata. And one little boy, also four like my youngest son,
whose popsicle was melting too fast for him to eat it, handed it to Kestrel
to eat inbetween his licks. It was so cute and so generous...
And I noticed something really interesting. I didn't see any parental
controlling of food... it's a huge holiday, right? And I didn't see even one
meltdown. The bounce house had about a gazillion small kids in it... and
they were all getting along fabulously.
It seems so incredibly obvious that control creates distress, and there is
all kinds of proof (for the kinds of folks that need it) that stress creates
more ill-health than food does. You gotta wonder what the heck people are
thinking...
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
We are so programmed by other people’s programming which is programming by
other people’s programming that we are on autopilot and we ourselves can’t
see through our own stuff. ~~ Nwenna Kai
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
--If the parent is the one putting food on a plate for the small child, then put a little of everything on it, including the cookies if they were intended as the dessert part of the meal.-
This reminds me of why I like frozen dinners when I was a kid--they always came with the apple dessert that you could eat first if you wanted. Or a bite of this, a bite of that.
Joanna
This reminds me of why I like frozen dinners when I was a kid--they always came with the apple dessert that you could eat first if you wanted. Or a bite of this, a bite of that.
Joanna
Jenny Cyphers
-=-I think it's borderline cruel to let the child collect the candy
and then throw it out in front of them.-=-
***It's not borderline cruel. It's hateful and mean.
It's plain old unadulterated cruelty.***
That was exactly Chamille's reaction when she read the facebook thread about mothers who pretend to be candy fairies and take their children's candy away! She was so insulted by the idea that she was not very polite about it and got a few moms VERY defensive! Guess what though? She doesn't care! She's seen what that kind of parenting does, she's seen that kind of stuff done to friends over the years and it bothers her deeply, and it should!
It IS mean, even when the parents think they are doing it for a better and higher good... But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful relationships with kids?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and then throw it out in front of them.-=-
***It's not borderline cruel. It's hateful and mean.
It's plain old unadulterated cruelty.***
That was exactly Chamille's reaction when she read the facebook thread about mothers who pretend to be candy fairies and take their children's candy away! She was so insulted by the idea that she was not very polite about it and got a few moms VERY defensive! Guess what though? She doesn't care! She's seen what that kind of parenting does, she's seen that kind of stuff done to friends over the years and it bothers her deeply, and it should!
It IS mean, even when the parents think they are doing it for a better and higher good... But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful relationships with kids?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow66
--- In [email protected], "Joanna" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
I have found with my kids that if they are clammering for cookies or cake and i know they are hungry,that putting the cake and cookies on a plate with other food they are more likely to eat the other foods too than if i were to give them the "good food" and say eat this so you can have cake.
>Last night I made pork chops,peas, apple sauce and biscuits and we had some choc cookies. I have those devided plastic plates and put each food in each divided section. My husband laughed cause it reminded him of those t.v.dinners too... Instead of using those plates for himself he proceeded to put his pees in one bowl,his apple sauce in another and his pork chop on his plate.
> --If the parent is the one putting food on a plate for the small child, then put a little of everything on it, including the cookies if they were intended as the dessert part of the meal.-
>
> This reminds me of why I like frozen dinners when I was a kid--they always came with the apple dessert that you could eat first if you wanted. Or a bite of this, a bite of that.
>
I have found with my kids that if they are clammering for cookies or cake and i know they are hungry,that putting the cake and cookies on a plate with other food they are more likely to eat the other foods too than if i were to give them the "good food" and say eat this so you can have cake.
Sandra Dodd
I know the answer to this:
-=-But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful
relationships with kids?-=-
Eternal salvation. There are many (hundreds of thousands) of
homeschooling parents and many (millions) whose kids are in school who
don't give a rat's ass (though they wouldn't use that language)
whether their kids like them, and who don't WANT a peaceful
relationship with their kids in this life. They want to spend
eternity in heaven with their children, and if the cost is misery on
earth well... that's how it works.
It's not just a few nuts who believe that. It's a vast swath of the
U.S. and a heavy number of the world's Catholics, too.
But another answer completely unrelated to religion:
When the mother is still a child and wants her parents approval to
feel right and good and whole, she might treat her children like rag
dolls in hopes of hearing "good girl!" from her mother or dad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful
relationships with kids?-=-
Eternal salvation. There are many (hundreds of thousands) of
homeschooling parents and many (millions) whose kids are in school who
don't give a rat's ass (though they wouldn't use that language)
whether their kids like them, and who don't WANT a peaceful
relationship with their kids in this life. They want to spend
eternity in heaven with their children, and if the cost is misery on
earth well... that's how it works.
It's not just a few nuts who believe that. It's a vast swath of the
U.S. and a heavy number of the world's Catholics, too.
But another answer completely unrelated to religion:
When the mother is still a child and wants her parents approval to
feel right and good and whole, she might treat her children like rag
dolls in hopes of hearing "good girl!" from her mother or dad.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I know the answer to this:***
-=-But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful
relationships with kids?-=-
***Eternal salvation. There are many (hundreds of thousands) of
homeschooling parents and many (millions) whose kids are in school who
don't give a rat's ass (though they wouldn't use that language)
whether their kids like them, and who don't WANT a peaceful
relationship with their kids in this life. They want to spend
eternity in heaven with their children, and if the cost is misery on
earth well... that's how it works.***
I was thinking the same thing! I still believe it to be true for my own self! I think most parents, or it seems so anyway, want peaceful little robots who do exactly what the parents want. That's true, even for the non religious crowd. Even for those non religious folks, I believe it's a hold over idea form puritan culture, sucks for them because at least the religious folks get a reward somewhere in the future.
It seems much of our culture is based on that dichotomy.... suffer now and get one's reward later, and the reactionary aspect of that would be that huge other part of our culture that demands immediacy of rewards now, all the time, screw the suffering and waiting part.
As a side note... I recently became aware of the fact that there are mega churches that have McD's and Starbucks in them... take that for whatever it's worth, I was more than happy to be ignorant of this fact, but I feel it's not fair that others get to be ignorant of this too, so I'm sharing...
***But another answer completely unrelated to religion:
When the mother is still a child and wants her parents approval to
feel right and good and whole, she might treat her children like rag
dolls in hopes of hearing "good girl!" from her mother or dad.***
Yet another way in which a child's needs of peace and respect get trumped. Simply because the mother's need of peace and respect were clearly never filled, and onward the cycle.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-But what better and higher good could trump respect and peaceful
relationships with kids?-=-
***Eternal salvation. There are many (hundreds of thousands) of
homeschooling parents and many (millions) whose kids are in school who
don't give a rat's ass (though they wouldn't use that language)
whether their kids like them, and who don't WANT a peaceful
relationship with their kids in this life. They want to spend
eternity in heaven with their children, and if the cost is misery on
earth well... that's how it works.***
I was thinking the same thing! I still believe it to be true for my own self! I think most parents, or it seems so anyway, want peaceful little robots who do exactly what the parents want. That's true, even for the non religious crowd. Even for those non religious folks, I believe it's a hold over idea form puritan culture, sucks for them because at least the religious folks get a reward somewhere in the future.
It seems much of our culture is based on that dichotomy.... suffer now and get one's reward later, and the reactionary aspect of that would be that huge other part of our culture that demands immediacy of rewards now, all the time, screw the suffering and waiting part.
As a side note... I recently became aware of the fact that there are mega churches that have McD's and Starbucks in them... take that for whatever it's worth, I was more than happy to be ignorant of this fact, but I feel it's not fair that others get to be ignorant of this too, so I'm sharing...
***But another answer completely unrelated to religion:
When the mother is still a child and wants her parents approval to
feel right and good and whole, she might treat her children like rag
dolls in hopes of hearing "good girl!" from her mother or dad.***
Yet another way in which a child's needs of peace and respect get trumped. Simply because the mother's need of peace and respect were clearly never filled, and onward the cycle.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
It seems much of our culture is based on that dichotomy.... suffer now
and get one's reward later, and the reactionary aspect of that would
be that huge other part of our culture that demands immediacy of
rewards now, all the time, screw the suffering and waiting part.-=-
COrrect. Some people don't find any balance. They either suffer fully
or give up on suffering and go crazy-wild.
Some of you might remember the tirade some time back about how we were
hedonists. Either puritans or hedonists? There's a whole world
between those two extremes.
I put it in the Big Book of Unschooling, in part, but the full bit
is here:
http://sandradodd.com/lazyhedonists
I started to quote the good parts, but it's ALL good parts. Very
extreme.
So as to that topic about spirituality and philosophy, the crazed-
extreme argument is called false dilemma. In spiritual discussions
it's "dichotomy," the false idea that everything is either absolutely
good or absolutely evil.
Then there's another fallacy that comes from people trying to avoid
those, in which they will say "OH! We were wrong before. Things are
not just good or evil. That means there is no such thing as good or
evil; all things are equally good."
That's just as wrong. It's like saying all points on a map are the
same thing, and so there's no sense having north or south, and there's
no sense knowing where you meant to go.
Sandra
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It seems much of our culture is based on that dichotomy.... suffer now
and get one's reward later, and the reactionary aspect of that would
be that huge other part of our culture that demands immediacy of
rewards now, all the time, screw the suffering and waiting part.-=-
COrrect. Some people don't find any balance. They either suffer fully
or give up on suffering and go crazy-wild.
Some of you might remember the tirade some time back about how we were
hedonists. Either puritans or hedonists? There's a whole world
between those two extremes.
I put it in the Big Book of Unschooling, in part, but the full bit
is here:
http://sandradodd.com/lazyhedonists
I started to quote the good parts, but it's ALL good parts. Very
extreme.
So as to that topic about spirituality and philosophy, the crazed-
extreme argument is called false dilemma. In spiritual discussions
it's "dichotomy," the false idea that everything is either absolutely
good or absolutely evil.
Then there's another fallacy that comes from people trying to avoid
those, in which they will say "OH! We were wrong before. Things are
not just good or evil. That means there is no such thing as good or
evil; all things are equally good."
That's just as wrong. It's like saying all points on a map are the
same thing, and so there's no sense having north or south, and there's
no sense knowing where you meant to go.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristi
>But what better and higher good could trump respect and peacefulNo kidding! How many millions have been controlled, manipulated, shamed, humiliated, ignored, hit, etc. as a result of "God's Will" and what is necessary for everlasting life...real life be damned.
> relationships with kids?-=-
> ***Eternal salvation.
I know I was, and there was truly no hope in the everlasting.
Beyond that, I think most people who think that the everlasting trumps all really don't even like children, and thus all the consequences of a life lived towards that goal are justified in getting beyond the childhood years (which of course, leads to all the "problems" of the teen years).
The thought of it all kind of makes me sad at the moment, however my own saving grace is I'm always hopeful!
> As a side note... I recently became aware of the fact that there are mega churches that have McD's and Starbucks in them... take that for whatever it's worth, I was more than happy to be ignorant of this fact, but I feel it's not fair that others get to be ignorant of this too, so I'm sharing...I don't find that surprising, but if I were the CEO of any of those Corps, I should would wonder whether money was greater than the association! Most likely...
Jenny Cyphers
***Beyond that, I think most people who think that the everlasting trumps all really don't even like children, and thus all the consequences of a life lived towards that goal are justified in getting beyond the childhood years (which of course, leads to all the "problems" of the teen years).***
OR, they like children so much that they feel they must save them, for their own good. That's been my experience anyway.
Since I have a teen, I see clearly the connection of respectful parenting and the problems or not, of teens. When my oldest wasn't yet a teen, I could see that force and coersion and disrespect didn't have great outcomes. I could see that treating a child like a real human being was beneficial. Now, directly because of that, I have a teen who doesn't have problems, and we have a relationship that isn't filled with strife, like I see with many of her friends.
***The thought of it all kind of makes me sad at the moment, however my own saving grace is I'm always hopeful!***
Unschooling helps with that. It is hopeful making because you start to see the world in a more positive light. When you have happy kids and good relationships with the people that you are invested the most in, it's easier to relax and enjoy life.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OR, they like children so much that they feel they must save them, for their own good. That's been my experience anyway.
Since I have a teen, I see clearly the connection of respectful parenting and the problems or not, of teens. When my oldest wasn't yet a teen, I could see that force and coersion and disrespect didn't have great outcomes. I could see that treating a child like a real human being was beneficial. Now, directly because of that, I have a teen who doesn't have problems, and we have a relationship that isn't filled with strife, like I see with many of her friends.
***The thought of it all kind of makes me sad at the moment, however my own saving grace is I'm always hopeful!***
Unschooling helps with that. It is hopeful making because you start to see the world in a more positive light. When you have happy kids and good relationships with the people that you are invested the most in, it's easier to relax and enjoy life.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]