Teen Issues
adesah
My ds(15) is an awesome, awesome person. He's funny, bright, quick, responsible and musically talented. I love being around him, and I feel pretty sure he still considers me his friend. But he's got one trait that is really starting to get on my nerves, and I need advice how to handle it in a way that won't ruin our relationship: He seems determined to waste energy at every opportunity.
Now, hear me out before you judge. The *only* reason this is an issue is because money is very tight around here. We're really trying to cut our costs, since dh and I are already working a lot. We agree that it's best to cut expenses rather than lose yet *more* family time to work yet *more* hours.
Ds, though, seems as though he's being passive-aggressive in his energy use. It's beyond simply being forgetful about turning lights off or whatever; the only things he "remembers" to turn off are the things that matter to him (the computer and the XBox). That would be fine if his leaving things on wouldn't affect the rest of us so much. But it does, and I really need help in finding a solution.
I've been observing for months now and trying to explain and talk it out with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing interests, we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time. He's extraordinarily responsible, self-reliant, and independent in almost every other way. It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel against. And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't know how I *should* be handling it.
Help!
Adesa
Now, hear me out before you judge. The *only* reason this is an issue is because money is very tight around here. We're really trying to cut our costs, since dh and I are already working a lot. We agree that it's best to cut expenses rather than lose yet *more* family time to work yet *more* hours.
Ds, though, seems as though he's being passive-aggressive in his energy use. It's beyond simply being forgetful about turning lights off or whatever; the only things he "remembers" to turn off are the things that matter to him (the computer and the XBox). That would be fine if his leaving things on wouldn't affect the rest of us so much. But it does, and I really need help in finding a solution.
I've been observing for months now and trying to explain and talk it out with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing interests, we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time. He's extraordinarily responsible, self-reliant, and independent in almost every other way. It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel against. And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't know how I *should* be handling it.
Help!
Adesa
Sandra Dodd
-=-I've been observing for months now and trying to explain and talk
it out with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing
interests, we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time.-=-
Talking doesn't save electricity,though. You turn the things off. If
you want to make a point with him, keep track of how many times you've
turned it off and then remind him once a week, maybe, but not every
time you do it.
-=- It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel
against. And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't
know how I *should* be handling it. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
There are some notes from a prior conversation.
Does he feel, or has he been told, that other electricity and lights
and appliances around the house belong to you and not to him? Ae the
computer and XBox the only things he does feel are his own?
Do you pay for XBox live for him? Does he get an allowance? Does he
have spending money?
When I was a kid I got the crummiest allowance ever; not enough to buy
a 50¢ paperback book. My mom would grouse and complain about things
like the lights being on, and woudn't give me a dime, but she was
buying coffee, cigarettes and beer for herself without fail. Then to
add insult, she would tell me to bring her a cigarette, or to make her
some coffee, or to do the dishes (including the percolator). Those
things were hers, not mine. But I was expected to take care of them
AND be frugal so she could more easily afford more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it out with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing
interests, we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time.-=-
Talking doesn't save electricity,though. You turn the things off. If
you want to make a point with him, keep track of how many times you've
turned it off and then remind him once a week, maybe, but not every
time you do it.
-=- It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel
against. And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't
know how I *should* be handling it. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
There are some notes from a prior conversation.
Does he feel, or has he been told, that other electricity and lights
and appliances around the house belong to you and not to him? Ae the
computer and XBox the only things he does feel are his own?
Do you pay for XBox live for him? Does he get an allowance? Does he
have spending money?
When I was a kid I got the crummiest allowance ever; not enough to buy
a 50¢ paperback book. My mom would grouse and complain about things
like the lights being on, and woudn't give me a dime, but she was
buying coffee, cigarettes and beer for herself without fail. Then to
add insult, she would tell me to bring her a cigarette, or to make her
some coffee, or to do the dishes (including the percolator). Those
things were hers, not mine. But I was expected to take care of them
AND be frugal so she could more easily afford more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adesah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
He does get an allowance (since he's been cutting the lawn, $25 per cutting) and he pays his on XBox Live subscription. He's responsible about the XBox and the computer (and his musical instruments, now that I think of it) because they are the focus of his home life.
BTW, I mostly just turn things off as I'm going about my day, saying something to my ds maybe 2 or 3 times a week. I did take him and his brother out to the meter once to show them what it looked like when our normal stuff was all up and running, then again when everything was turned off. Little bro understood and has been really good about turning things off. Big bro understood, but doesn't seem to care.
I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke up. I'm very frustrated. Someone suggested I flip the fuse to his room. While I've no doubt he'll start turning things off after that, I'm even more convinced our relationship would be ruined. And I'm NOT okay with that.
On the other hand, he's 15. He's likely to move out of this hick town as soon as he can, so that's only a few more years of these high bills, right? And although I'm concerned for his financial well-being when he moves out, that's a lesson he'll surely get when the bill is his own. {sigh}
Adesa
>He understands that mom and dad are responsible for paying the electric bill, so we're concerned about the amount. But very little has been made into "ours" versus "his." The only things I can think of, in fact, with specific ownership around here are my husband's power tools, for safety reasons... but ds has no interest in them.
> Does he feel, or has he been told, that other electricity and lights
> and appliances around the house belong to you and not to him? Are the
> computer and XBox the only things he does feel are his own?
>
> Do you pay for XBox live for him? Does he get an allowance? Does he
> have spending money?
>
He does get an allowance (since he's been cutting the lawn, $25 per cutting) and he pays his on XBox Live subscription. He's responsible about the XBox and the computer (and his musical instruments, now that I think of it) because they are the focus of his home life.
BTW, I mostly just turn things off as I'm going about my day, saying something to my ds maybe 2 or 3 times a week. I did take him and his brother out to the meter once to show them what it looked like when our normal stuff was all up and running, then again when everything was turned off. Little bro understood and has been really good about turning things off. Big bro understood, but doesn't seem to care.
I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke up. I'm very frustrated. Someone suggested I flip the fuse to his room. While I've no doubt he'll start turning things off after that, I'm even more convinced our relationship would be ruined. And I'm NOT okay with that.
On the other hand, he's 15. He's likely to move out of this hick town as soon as he can, so that's only a few more years of these high bills, right? And although I'm concerned for his financial well-being when he moves out, that's a lesson he'll surely get when the bill is his own. {sigh}
Adesa
Sandra Dodd
-=-I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the
toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke
up.-=-
The toilet doesn't take electricity, does it? Unless you have your own
well and pump.
When I come in to lots of lights on, and I ask, there's often a fairly
logical explanation. There are families that would love to restore or
improve relationships with their kids, and pay counsellors $60 to $200
an hour to get help. Maybe just having been less uptight about
things earlier could've eliminated the need for family counselling.
I think being very angsty about it is worse for your health and the
happiness of the family than just turning off lights would be.
Sandra
toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke
up.-=-
The toilet doesn't take electricity, does it? Unless you have your own
well and pump.
When I come in to lots of lights on, and I ask, there's often a fairly
logical explanation. There are families that would love to restore or
improve relationships with their kids, and pay counsellors $60 to $200
an hour to get help. Maybe just having been less uptight about
things earlier could've eliminated the need for family counselling.
I think being very angsty about it is worse for your health and the
happiness of the family than just turning off lights would be.
Sandra
adesah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
It may come to him not getting paid for cutting the lawn because the money had to go to the electric bill. That's simply our reality here. But I am trying very hard to avoid that because of the resentment that would surely ensue.
I guess I just want him to care enough to make an effort. But you can't *make* someone care about something. So what do you do when their lack of concern affects you?
Adesa
>Yes, that's exactly what we have. Sorry I didn't explain it. (it's handy, though, now that the closest town is on a boil notice -- bacteria in the town's supply, yuck!)
> -=-I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the
> toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke
> up.-=-
>
> The toilet doesn't take electricity, does it? Unless you have your own
> well and pump.
> I think being very angsty about it is worse for your health and theBut we are on a very, very tight budget here. We all agreed that cable "cannot" be cut back -- TV and the internet our whole lives, lol! I've been trying to find places we *can* cut back, and his continued waste of electricity in the face of our tight budget is not about angst. It's simply that we don't have money to waste on unused electricity (or anything else being wasted, for that matter).
> happiness of the family than just turning off lights would be.
>
It may come to him not getting paid for cutting the lawn because the money had to go to the electric bill. That's simply our reality here. But I am trying very hard to avoid that because of the resentment that would surely ensue.
I guess I just want him to care enough to make an effort. But you can't *make* someone care about something. So what do you do when their lack of concern affects you?
Adesa
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/27/2009 5:33 AM, adesah wrote:
different appliances? Because - too many parents nag their children over
things that are really quite negligible, while they don't make other
changes that would make much larger differences.
Electricity rates vary a lot - average in California, where I live, is
about 16 cents per kwh, but in Washington State the average is under 8
cents per kwh.
Okay - so look at the reality. A 1,000 watt window air condition (a
medium size) uses 1 kwh in an hour. So it costs from 8 to 15 cents to
run it for an hour or 80 cents to $1.50 to run it for ten hours.
A 100 watt lightbulb costs 1/10th of that - or .8 to 1.5 cents for an
hour. TEN hours of leaving a 100 watt lightbulb on would cost 8 to 15 cents.
If you use compact fluorescent replacements they will cost about 1/4 of
that --- so about .2 to .4 cents for an hour or 2 to 4 cents for 10 hours.
So - switch to CF lighting - and figure even if he left lights on for
the entire month, it would cost a total of about a dollar and a half up
to maybe three dollars for the whole month, 24 hours per day.
Is it worth stressing and messing up your relationship over a light bulb?
Maybe you guys could go to this website - put in your appliances and
figure out where you really could save enough money to make it
worthwhile to worry about it?
<http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/howmuch.html>
I know my husband sometimes gets on us about leaving lights on and I
sometimes remind him that if he just turns them off when he notices it,
that he might save a penny or two and he can also save a negative moment
if he just does it without letting it annoy him (or us).
On the other hand, my husband earns most of the money that lets us live
this amazing lifestyle and so I try to honor that by using the money
carefully. So I'm not saying to encourage waste, I'm saying that you
should know how much money you're really talking about and decide
whether it is really worth having hard feelings over it.
-pam
> I've been observing for months now and trying to explain and talk it out with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing interests, we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time. He's extraordinarily responsible, self-reliant, and independent in almost every other way. It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel against. And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't know how I*should* be handling it.How knowledgeable are you about how much electricity is really used by
>
different appliances? Because - too many parents nag their children over
things that are really quite negligible, while they don't make other
changes that would make much larger differences.
Electricity rates vary a lot - average in California, where I live, is
about 16 cents per kwh, but in Washington State the average is under 8
cents per kwh.
Okay - so look at the reality. A 1,000 watt window air condition (a
medium size) uses 1 kwh in an hour. So it costs from 8 to 15 cents to
run it for an hour or 80 cents to $1.50 to run it for ten hours.
A 100 watt lightbulb costs 1/10th of that - or .8 to 1.5 cents for an
hour. TEN hours of leaving a 100 watt lightbulb on would cost 8 to 15 cents.
If you use compact fluorescent replacements they will cost about 1/4 of
that --- so about .2 to .4 cents for an hour or 2 to 4 cents for 10 hours.
So - switch to CF lighting - and figure even if he left lights on for
the entire month, it would cost a total of about a dollar and a half up
to maybe three dollars for the whole month, 24 hours per day.
Is it worth stressing and messing up your relationship over a light bulb?
Maybe you guys could go to this website - put in your appliances and
figure out where you really could save enough money to make it
worthwhile to worry about it?
<http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/howmuch.html>
I know my husband sometimes gets on us about leaving lights on and I
sometimes remind him that if he just turns them off when he notices it,
that he might save a penny or two and he can also save a negative moment
if he just does it without letting it annoy him (or us).
On the other hand, my husband earns most of the money that lets us live
this amazing lifestyle and so I try to honor that by using the money
carefully. So I'm not saying to encourage waste, I'm saying that you
should know how much money you're really talking about and decide
whether it is really worth having hard feelings over it.
-pam
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<He does get an allowance (since he's been cutting the lawn, $25 per
cutting) >>>>
Being a bit picky myself here - it's not an "allowance" if he is earning it.
It's wages.
<<<<< I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the
toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke up. I'm
very frustrated. Someone suggested I flip the fuse to his room. While I've
no doubt he'll start turning things off after that, I'm even more convinced
our relationship would be ruined. And I'm NOT okay with that.>>>>>
We have similar issues here - Jayn wanted to take one of her long playing
type of showers and run the big heating light in the bathroom. It especially
bothers her father to see her being so oblivious to ecological issues and
our utility bills. However she heard his suggestions to get out as nagging,
(and tbh he did sound pretty cranky). She can't bear to feel "in the wrong"
and instantly became defensive. He wanted me to step in and fix his problem.
The real disagreement here was between James and I - over how long is too
long in the shower, and is it worth the fight. I tend to lean on the side of
"not".
Jayn is very aware of other eco-issues, like picking up litter, recycling
and using cloth shopping bags. I think her awareness and what might be
called "empathy for the earth" comes in waves. Finding information on line,
or watching science programs seems to allow Jay to absorb the information
(and then want talk about it) much more readily than when it comes initially
from me or James. In our subsequent discussion about it (ie James and my
discussion) he asked me to find a way to show Jayn why her excessive water
use is a problem, help her become aware of the drought in CA, and we talked
about tv and the internet being the best source for this, rather than him
telling her to get out of the shower. I asked him to practice some more
patience. So we are back on the same page again.
One of my answers is to take up as much of the slack as I can manage. I make
sure I am turning off as much as I can. I take short showers (which is also
modelling). Of course every light bulb in our house is a compact
fluorescent, as I am sure is the case in Adesa's home. I can't "make her"
take responsibility. I can only allow her to when she is ready.
We had a blackout late last night for about three hours - a blown
transformer apparently. It was interesting to talk about "the olden days" of
working by candlelight. The only problem with an all electric kitchen is our
inability to cook. The blackout happened just as Jayn had said that she was
hungry! I made tuna salad on crackers, the first time she had eaten that,
and it was fun. Even a few hours made us appreciate how much electricity we
use and how much we depend upon power. It was all rather magical timing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
cutting) >>>>
Being a bit picky myself here - it's not an "allowance" if he is earning it.
It's wages.
<<<<< I finally posted here after finding his A/C running, the TV on, the
toilet running, and all the lights on yesterday morning when I woke up. I'm
very frustrated. Someone suggested I flip the fuse to his room. While I've
no doubt he'll start turning things off after that, I'm even more convinced
our relationship would be ruined. And I'm NOT okay with that.>>>>>
We have similar issues here - Jayn wanted to take one of her long playing
type of showers and run the big heating light in the bathroom. It especially
bothers her father to see her being so oblivious to ecological issues and
our utility bills. However she heard his suggestions to get out as nagging,
(and tbh he did sound pretty cranky). She can't bear to feel "in the wrong"
and instantly became defensive. He wanted me to step in and fix his problem.
The real disagreement here was between James and I - over how long is too
long in the shower, and is it worth the fight. I tend to lean on the side of
"not".
Jayn is very aware of other eco-issues, like picking up litter, recycling
and using cloth shopping bags. I think her awareness and what might be
called "empathy for the earth" comes in waves. Finding information on line,
or watching science programs seems to allow Jay to absorb the information
(and then want talk about it) much more readily than when it comes initially
from me or James. In our subsequent discussion about it (ie James and my
discussion) he asked me to find a way to show Jayn why her excessive water
use is a problem, help her become aware of the drought in CA, and we talked
about tv and the internet being the best source for this, rather than him
telling her to get out of the shower. I asked him to practice some more
patience. So we are back on the same page again.
One of my answers is to take up as much of the slack as I can manage. I make
sure I am turning off as much as I can. I take short showers (which is also
modelling). Of course every light bulb in our house is a compact
fluorescent, as I am sure is the case in Adesa's home. I can't "make her"
take responsibility. I can only allow her to when she is ready.
We had a blackout late last night for about three hours - a blown
transformer apparently. It was interesting to talk about "the olden days" of
working by candlelight. The only problem with an all electric kitchen is our
inability to cook. The blackout happened just as Jayn had said that she was
hungry! I made tuna salad on crackers, the first time she had eaten that,
and it was fun. Even a few hours made us appreciate how much electricity we
use and how much we depend upon power. It was all rather magical timing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
memismommy
> We had a blackout late last night for about three hours - a blownWe had a very similar experience - a very severe ice storm in early December left many people in our area (upstate NY) without power - trees were cracking for hours from the weight of ice on branches, power companies having to clear limbs off streets, houses, and lines...
> transformer apparently. It was interesting to talk about "the olden days" of
> working by candlelight. The only problem with an all electric kitchen is our
> inability to cook. The blackout happened just as Jayn had said that she was
> hungry! I made tuna salad on crackers, the first time she had eaten that,
> and it was fun. Even a few hours made us appreciate how much electricity we
> use and how much we depend upon power. It was all rather magical timing.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
We were two and a half days without electricity, and it was cold. We're lucky. We have a woodstove...we cooked on it (grilled salmon and garlic toast, and jiffy-pop popcorn, which was really fun!), heated warmed coffee and hot chocolate boiled on our gas stove, used our enclosed porch as a fridge, burned soy candles for light, piled on blankets with hot basalt rocks between, and camped out together in the family room...and, since we also have a well and pump, broke out the bottled water.
During the days, we read, and talked, and played. We all loved the magic of that enforced closeness and the sense of weathering something we'd remember fondly for a long time. both kids love to take sponge baths in a kettle of snowmelt, so we collected some, let it sit on the woodstove, then used it for cleaning bodies and dishes. After, we snuggled in together.
Which doesn't mean we didn't cheer when the power returned - or groan when it went out again for a few hours!
Maybe there is something useful here. Would it be feasible to suggest a power vacation for your entire family? I'm thinking it wouldn't need to be long - just long enough to turn toward each other and notice the things we don't tend to notice so clearly when there are ample electronic diversions available to us.
This might help your son to understand what a life without his prized electronics would be like. Maybe it would help, if you haven't done so, to show your kids the power bill and discuss frankly how much budget is available for that. To ask them if they have any ideas how the family *as a whole* might bring usage into balance with that budget. To explain what will happen if the bill can't be paid. Not in a threatening way, but an informative one. Doing this with the power out, and in a way that doesn't target the child you're seeing as the prime offender, might yield surprises.
It also might help *you* to shift your thinking. Your posts have a hint of futility and defensiveness in them that I've felt at times, too. What I've learned is that what seems insurmountable and impossible to bear becomes almost laughable if I only shift my attitude. The attitude shift will lead to a new or different action if you let it. Maybe it'll be one of the suggestions posted here, or something that pops into your head in an unexpected moment. But if you're open for it, focused on changing *your* thinking rather than *his* habit, you might find that this mountain quickly and effortlessly becomes a molehill.
When I feel this hopelessness, I can always count on the very experienced voices on this list, and in the chats, to jolt me out of my unexamined thinking. I may not always like being called on m assumptions here, at first (I'm inordinately attached to my schooly beliefs, at times), but I always end up turning things over and over in my mind, worrying at them until they evolve into ideas I can use here, right now, in *my* way of being my own family. And we are immeasurably more peaceful and joyful now than we were a year ago!
I hope you find some of the same! =)
Shan
Jeremiah,8 next week, and Annalise,5
www.memismommy@...
>
Krisula Moyer
>>On the other hand, my husband earns most of the money that lets uslive
this amazing lifestyle and so I try to honor that by using the money
carefully. So I'm not saying to encourage waste, I'm saying that you
should know how much money you're really talking about and decide
whether it is really worth having hard feelings over it.
-pam<<
-------------------------------
As part of a girl scout project Anika(9) and Eric (dh) Did the math
on several appliances including the TV and computer screens we use
most. Because our electricity is on a graduating scale in California
based on usage, the TV takes between 15 cents to 30 cents per hour to
run at our house. She observed that it didn't seem like much but that
it amounted to a dollar to 2 dollars a night when people fall asleep
in front of it and forget to turn it off until morning. When two
people do this (which used to be common) it could add up to a very
significant amount. (maybe $15 per week) Also, making sure they don't
run when no one is watching them can keep us in a lower price bracket
which helps even more. Once everyone understood this they were more
than willing to try harder to remember to turn them off when not in
use and set their timers at night so they do not run. I am used to
getting up once in the night and turning things off (if I wake up)
but lately the kids have been policing it for themselves. They want
to save the money for use elsewhere and are concerned about
conservation. No conflict, just mutual support.
We also turn off lights when leaving a room but by far the more
significant step was changing them to compact fluorescents. Our bill
went down by a third the month we made the switch. Nagging kids to
change their habits would not have made nearly so significant a
difference and definitely would have eroded our relationships.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JoyErin
-= I guess I just want him to care enough to make an effort. But you can't
*make* someone care about something. So what do you do when their lack of
concern affects you? =-
I could totally imagine that my own parents could have written this sentence
and question above when I was a teen. I don't think I remember a lot from
those years now but totally remember my father always after me about turning
lights off when leaving a room (not saying that's what is happening here).
. I didn't then and still don't know why I couldn't think like they did
about 'saving' electricity. I think much of it though was probably simply
because I was a kid and didn't have enough experiences yet. There have now
been times that my children have left lots of things on, lights and
computers that no one was using and I started to get agrivated. Then I
remembered and thought back to myself doing the same thing and my father
*seeming to* allows be there ready to say something. I was able to let it
go remembering this and then the issue seemed to disappear. I rarely come
down in the morning to things left on that don't need to be now. I can't
say just why but it does seem sometimes the more I push against something
mentally the less likely things seem to sort themselves out easily. If
after reading some of the other great advice here and this was still
something that bothered me I'd think about asking my child if they'd be
willing to brainstorm ways of dealing with *my* need to have electrical
things turned off when not being used.
Joy
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*make* someone care about something. So what do you do when their lack of
concern affects you? =-
I could totally imagine that my own parents could have written this sentence
and question above when I was a teen. I don't think I remember a lot from
those years now but totally remember my father always after me about turning
lights off when leaving a room (not saying that's what is happening here).
. I didn't then and still don't know why I couldn't think like they did
about 'saving' electricity. I think much of it though was probably simply
because I was a kid and didn't have enough experiences yet. There have now
been times that my children have left lots of things on, lights and
computers that no one was using and I started to get agrivated. Then I
remembered and thought back to myself doing the same thing and my father
*seeming to* allows be there ready to say something. I was able to let it
go remembering this and then the issue seemed to disappear. I rarely come
down in the morning to things left on that don't need to be now. I can't
say just why but it does seem sometimes the more I push against something
mentally the less likely things seem to sort themselves out easily. If
after reading some of the other great advice here and this was still
something that bothered me I'd think about asking my child if they'd be
willing to brainstorm ways of dealing with *my* need to have electrical
things turned off when not being used.
Joy
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe there is something useful here. Would it be feasible to
suggest a power vacation for your entire family? I'm thinking it
wouldn't need to be long - just long enough to turn toward each other
and notice the things we don't tend to notice so clearly when there
are ample electronic diversions available to us.
-=-This might help your son to understand what a life without his
prized electronics would be like.-=-
The difference between a natural disaster and a trumped-up disaster is
motive, though. If the parents flip the switch with the least though
of "This'll teach you," then it's punishment and not accident.
If someone turned the electricity off at my house just to show me what
it would be like without electricity, I wouldn't want that person in
my life anymore, because it's mean and controlling.
I grew up in a town where the phone service went out sometimes and the
electricity went out LOTS. We had a gas stove, so food was fine. We
had an electric pump on our well; water was hard.
Because of SCA camping and feasts, we always have lots of candles and
we have coleman stoves and a coleman heater (a propane heater). Once
the electricity went off in our old neighborhood, and the boys and I
(maybe Holly wasn't born or maybe I carried her in a Snugli; I don't
remember) went to all the elderly neighbors and gave them Cylume
lights--chemical light sticks. We had to show them how to use them.
We passed out candles too, to anyone who didn't already have any, for
eight or ten houses around.
-=- Maybe it would help, if you haven't done so, to show your kids the
power bill and discuss frankly how much budget is available for that.
To ask them if they have any ideas how the family *as a whole* might
bring usage into balance with that budget. To explain what will happen
if the bill can't be paid. Not in a threatening way, but an
informative one. Doing this with the power out, and in a way that
doesn't target the child you're seeing as the prime offender, might
yield surprises.-=-
The child has already been tagged the prime offender, though. And
when my mom showed me bills and "informed" me what would happen to me
(no more piano lessons or some such) if I didn't save money, it pissed
me off. I wanted a record player. She couldn't afford it. I did the
math on a year's worth of cigarettes and showed her where she could
get that money. Somehow she wasn't sympathetic to me. <G>
-=-Maybe it'll be one of the suggestions posted here, or something
that pops into your head in an unexpected moment. But if you're open
for it, focused on changing *your* thinking rather than *his* habit,
you might find that this mountain quickly and effortlessly becomes a
molehill.
-=-
Very true!
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Somewhere in there is some stuff about people who "HAVE TO" do the
dishes, with a serious and humorous list of alternatives. That might
help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
suggest a power vacation for your entire family? I'm thinking it
wouldn't need to be long - just long enough to turn toward each other
and notice the things we don't tend to notice so clearly when there
are ample electronic diversions available to us.
-=-This might help your son to understand what a life without his
prized electronics would be like.-=-
The difference between a natural disaster and a trumped-up disaster is
motive, though. If the parents flip the switch with the least though
of "This'll teach you," then it's punishment and not accident.
If someone turned the electricity off at my house just to show me what
it would be like without electricity, I wouldn't want that person in
my life anymore, because it's mean and controlling.
I grew up in a town where the phone service went out sometimes and the
electricity went out LOTS. We had a gas stove, so food was fine. We
had an electric pump on our well; water was hard.
Because of SCA camping and feasts, we always have lots of candles and
we have coleman stoves and a coleman heater (a propane heater). Once
the electricity went off in our old neighborhood, and the boys and I
(maybe Holly wasn't born or maybe I carried her in a Snugli; I don't
remember) went to all the elderly neighbors and gave them Cylume
lights--chemical light sticks. We had to show them how to use them.
We passed out candles too, to anyone who didn't already have any, for
eight or ten houses around.
-=- Maybe it would help, if you haven't done so, to show your kids the
power bill and discuss frankly how much budget is available for that.
To ask them if they have any ideas how the family *as a whole* might
bring usage into balance with that budget. To explain what will happen
if the bill can't be paid. Not in a threatening way, but an
informative one. Doing this with the power out, and in a way that
doesn't target the child you're seeing as the prime offender, might
yield surprises.-=-
The child has already been tagged the prime offender, though. And
when my mom showed me bills and "informed" me what would happen to me
(no more piano lessons or some such) if I didn't save money, it pissed
me off. I wanted a record player. She couldn't afford it. I did the
math on a year's worth of cigarettes and showed her where she could
get that money. Somehow she wasn't sympathetic to me. <G>
-=-Maybe it'll be one of the suggestions posted here, or something
that pops into your head in an unexpected moment. But if you're open
for it, focused on changing *your* thinking rather than *his* habit,
you might find that this mountain quickly and effortlessly becomes a
molehill.
-=-
Very true!
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Somewhere in there is some stuff about people who "HAVE TO" do the
dishes, with a serious and humorous list of alternatives. That might
help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- If
after reading some of the other great advice here and this was still
something that bothered me I'd think about asking my child if they'd be
willing to brainstorm ways of dealing with *my* need to have electrical
things turned off when not being used. -=-
Joy wrote that.
I wanted to add that this is a good example for seeing where the need
lies. The lights don't need to be turned off. It's not their "need."
The child doesn't "need" to turn the lights off, unless it's to keep
the parents from haranguing him, and then it's not about lights or
cost, it's about an adversarial relationship with the parents.
It parents don't necessarily "need" to have the lights turned off.
They might want to have the lights turned off. They might prefer it.
But it's about the parents' discomfort and shouldn't be made the kid's
discomfort. If he likes you enough to care about what you want,
he'll probably be more likely to turn the lights off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
after reading some of the other great advice here and this was still
something that bothered me I'd think about asking my child if they'd be
willing to brainstorm ways of dealing with *my* need to have electrical
things turned off when not being used. -=-
Joy wrote that.
I wanted to add that this is a good example for seeing where the need
lies. The lights don't need to be turned off. It's not their "need."
The child doesn't "need" to turn the lights off, unless it's to keep
the parents from haranguing him, and then it's not about lights or
cost, it's about an adversarial relationship with the parents.
It parents don't necessarily "need" to have the lights turned off.
They might want to have the lights turned off. They might prefer it.
But it's about the parents' discomfort and shouldn't be made the kid's
discomfort. If he likes you enough to care about what you want,
he'll probably be more likely to turn the lights off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:33 AM, adesah wrote:
whatever is occupying his mind and his environment just doesn't
register.
I've watched my teen daughter change clothes and drop them where she
is. It looks like she doesn't care or is deliberately trying to make
more work for me. But it isn't that and if I treated it like that
she'd be hurt, insulted and eventually angry that I thought so little
of her. If I point out what she's doing she'll come to awareness, but
in the moment she just can't.
It will help to turn your thinking around. He's showing by his
actions that this part of helping out he just can't do at the moment.
Focus more on what he can do. Focus more on the saving electricity
being your deal and the kids just help as they can.
Maybe this will help. We have a bathroom off a bright hallway. While
I do care about not wasting electricity, it's really hard for me to
remember to turn off the light because there's no visual cue as I'm
leaving that the light is still on. (The switch is out in the hall.)
My husband and daughter could nag me about it. They could make me get
up and go turn it off to "teach me." But that's all assuming I'm
willfully doing something wrong and need correction. It would be
insulting and damaging to the relationship. What's best for all:
electricity, relationships, peace in the atmosphere is for whoever
notices to just turn it off.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He's extraordinarily responsible, self-reliant, and independent inI think far more likely is that he just can't notice. He's focused on
> almost every other way. It's like he's rebelling against the only
> thing he has to rebel against.
whatever is occupying his mind and his environment just doesn't
register.
I've watched my teen daughter change clothes and drop them where she
is. It looks like she doesn't care or is deliberately trying to make
more work for me. But it isn't that and if I treated it like that
she'd be hurt, insulted and eventually angry that I thought so little
of her. If I point out what she's doing she'll come to awareness, but
in the moment she just can't.
It will help to turn your thinking around. He's showing by his
actions that this part of helping out he just can't do at the moment.
Focus more on what he can do. Focus more on the saving electricity
being your deal and the kids just help as they can.
Maybe this will help. We have a bathroom off a bright hallway. While
I do care about not wasting electricity, it's really hard for me to
remember to turn off the light because there's no visual cue as I'm
leaving that the light is still on. (The switch is out in the hall.)
My husband and daughter could nag me about it. They could make me get
up and go turn it off to "teach me." But that's all assuming I'm
willfully doing something wrong and need correction. It would be
insulting and damaging to the relationship. What's best for all:
electricity, relationships, peace in the atmosphere is for whoever
notices to just turn it off.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
adesah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
(Oh, and we have had the power turned off before -- not intentionally, mind you -- and we turned it into a little indoor camping experience. Fun for a few minutes, but my kids do NOT want to lose TV or computer like that ever again. They know the importance of paying your bills! And that's exactly why ds's waste has me so confused.)
I'm trying to not let the waste bother me and view it as simply part of him being here (like the food bill and medical care -- part and parcel of living). It's just very hard to ignore the *waste* part of it when the mail arrives and the number is that high, KWIM?
Adesa
> that this is a good example for seeing where the needThat's exactly what I've been trying to get at: this is *my* issue, not is. I know that. But *his* actions have a direct impact on my issue, and that's where I get stymied.
> lies. The lights don't need to be turned off. It's not their "need."
> The child doesn't "need" to turn the lights off, unless it's to keep
> the parents from haranguing him, and then it's not about lights or
> cost, it's about an adversarial relationship with the parents.
>
> It parents don't necessarily "need" to have the lights turned off.He "likes me enough" to do all kinds of other things for me, it's just this one thing that's a problem (for me). And while I agree that it's *my* issue now, it will become his if we can't pay the electric bill. That's not a threat or an attempt to manipulate him or anyone else; it's just what happens if you don't have enough money to pay for everything.
> They might want to have the lights turned off. They might prefer it.
> But it's about the parents' discomfort and shouldn't be made the kid's
> discomfort. If he likes you enough to care about what you want,
> he'll probably be more likely to turn the lights off.
>
(Oh, and we have had the power turned off before -- not intentionally, mind you -- and we turned it into a little indoor camping experience. Fun for a few minutes, but my kids do NOT want to lose TV or computer like that ever again. They know the importance of paying your bills! And that's exactly why ds's waste has me so confused.)
I'm trying to not let the waste bother me and view it as simply part of him being here (like the food bill and medical care -- part and parcel of living). It's just very hard to ignore the *waste* part of it when the mail arrives and the number is that high, KWIM?
Adesa
adesah
--- In [email protected], Krisula Moyer <krisula@...> wrote:
Thank you for the insight.
Adesa
>This might be a good project for myself. I mean, I'm viewing all these things being left on as waste (and it is), but perhaps it's not as big a deal as I'm thinking it is. I'm passionate and impulsive, traits I happen to like about myself -- but traits that often lead me into trouble. {sheepish grin} My emotional reaction to ds's actions needs a bit of logic and facts, I suspect. Thanks for the reality check.
>
> >>I'm saying that you
> should know how much money you're really talking about and decide
> whether it is really worth having hard feelings over it.
>
> -pam<<
> -------------------------------
> As part of a girl scout project Anika(9) and Eric (dh) Did the math
> on several appliances including the TV and computer screens we use
> most.
> Once everyone understood this they were moreTimers! What a great idea! So simple, yet so effective. {smacks head} Why didn't I think of that?
> than willing to try harder to remember to turn them off when not in
> use and set their timers at night so they do not run.
> We also turn off lights when leaving a room but by far the moreYep. Plus, we keep anything not used very often (like the toaster) unplugged, and I only use the dryer when it's too cold to line dry the clothes.
> significant step was changing them to compact fluorescents. Our bill
> went down by a third the month we made the switch.
Thank you for the insight.
Adesa
Su Penn
I was just heading down to the bathroom, flipping lights off in
bedrooms along the way, and thinking about the OPs problem. She's got
a situation where it really matters to the family economically that
energy is conserved, but for whatever reason, her son is not able
right now to participate in conserving energy the way she thinks would
be most helpful.
I found myself wondering if some technical solutions would help. Could
timers be put on switches? We used to have a timer on the switch for
our bathroom fan, so you could leave it running after your shower,
long enough to get the moisture out of the air, but not have to worry
about it running all day if you didn't get back in there to turn it off.
I used to teach in a building that had motion-detector light switches.
It would turn the lights off in a room automatically if there'd been
no motion in X minutes. They weren't perfect--if I was in my classroom
alone, grading papers, the lights would go out on me and I'd have to
stand up and wave my arms to get them to go on again--but they
certainly did ensure that lights weren't burning for hours in empty
rooms.
These kinds of solutions take people's faulty memories out of the
equation to some extent.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, 2
bedrooms along the way, and thinking about the OPs problem. She's got
a situation where it really matters to the family economically that
energy is conserved, but for whatever reason, her son is not able
right now to participate in conserving energy the way she thinks would
be most helpful.
I found myself wondering if some technical solutions would help. Could
timers be put on switches? We used to have a timer on the switch for
our bathroom fan, so you could leave it running after your shower,
long enough to get the moisture out of the air, but not have to worry
about it running all day if you didn't get back in there to turn it off.
I used to teach in a building that had motion-detector light switches.
It would turn the lights off in a room automatically if there'd been
no motion in X minutes. They weren't perfect--if I was in my classroom
alone, grading papers, the lights would go out on me and I'd have to
stand up and wave my arms to get them to go on again--but they
certainly did ensure that lights weren't burning for hours in empty
rooms.
These kinds of solutions take people's faulty memories out of the
equation to some extent.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, 2
adesah
--- In [email protected], Su Penn <su@...> wrote:
Adesa
>Thanks, Su, for understanding and offering some excellent solutions. I'll be at Home Depot tomorrow, checking these out!
> I was just heading down to the bathroom, flipping lights off in
> bedrooms along the way, and thinking about the OPs problem. She's got
> a situation where it really matters to the family economically that
> energy is conserved, but for whatever reason, her son is not able
> right now to participate in conserving energy the way she thinks would
> be most helpful.
>
> I found myself wondering if some technical solutions would help.
Adesa
Lyla Wolfenstein
i may have missed a response, but i don't think so...pam s. posted about the calculating the *real* cost of the electricity and determining if that really is the issue. i wa surprised to hear the low estimates in that post, myself, and encouraged to think about waste in a slightly different way, although we don't struggle so much with that issue in our home (but that doesn't mean my kids don't leave lights on - they do - all the time, i just prefer to turn them off and not give it any more energy.)
the thing that is striking me about most of these posts about conserving electricity, is that, while the OP certainly coined the issue in those terms, the "tone"of all the subsequent posts from the OP has made it sound like the issue is more about resentment - and possibly fear? fear that her son will never develop the willingness or the compassion (since his lack of turning off lights is being viewed as unwillingness, as opposed to inability to remember/focus on that issue) to do something that is important to someone else?
i just wanted to throw that out there, because i think often these discussions get framed in an adversarial way, as joyce and others have described, and perhaps even beyond the adversarial feelings is some level of anxiety or fear on the part of the parent? similar to fear over non-reading, or "never learning math", etc.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the thing that is striking me about most of these posts about conserving electricity, is that, while the OP certainly coined the issue in those terms, the "tone"of all the subsequent posts from the OP has made it sound like the issue is more about resentment - and possibly fear? fear that her son will never develop the willingness or the compassion (since his lack of turning off lights is being viewed as unwillingness, as opposed to inability to remember/focus on that issue) to do something that is important to someone else?
i just wanted to throw that out there, because i think often these discussions get framed in an adversarial way, as joyce and others have described, and perhaps even beyond the adversarial feelings is some level of anxiety or fear on the part of the parent? similar to fear over non-reading, or "never learning math", etc.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/28/2009 9:18 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
-pam
> i just prefer to turn them off and not give it any more energy.NICE wording!
>
-pam
Lyla Wolfenstein
On 8/28/2009 9:18 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
lol! i didn't even notice that! and i originally typed a different phrase, don't even remember what it was, that i noticed had a double meaning like that and i deleted it. not in that part of the post, but still - you'd think i'd have noticed that one!
lyla
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> i just prefer to turn them off and not give it any more energy.NICE wording!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
lol! i didn't even notice that! and i originally typed a different phrase, don't even remember what it was, that i noticed had a double meaning like that and i deleted it. not in that part of the post, but still - you'd think i'd have noticed that one!
lyla
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Pam Sorooshian
On 8/28/2009 8:25 AM, adesah wrote:
use survey and then give us feedback as to how we can save the most.
You might contact them.
If you have electric water heating - turning down the temperature just a
degree or two can save a lot. If you have anything that "heats" with
electricity, that is your source of big potential savings. Waterbed
heaters, pool heaters, floor heaters, etc.
-pam
> Thanks, Su, for understanding and offering some excellent solutions. I'll be at Home Depot tomorrow, checking these out!Our electricity company will send someone to our house to do an energy
>
use survey and then give us feedback as to how we can save the most.
You might contact them.
If you have electric water heating - turning down the temperature just a
degree or two can save a lot. If you have anything that "heats" with
electricity, that is your source of big potential savings. Waterbed
heaters, pool heaters, floor heaters, etc.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-> i just prefer to turn them off and not give it any more energy.
Electric Freudian slip!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>-=-NICE wording!-=-
Electric Freudian slip!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
>>> I've been observing for months now and trying to explain and talk itout with him. Any time in the past that we've had clashing interests,
we've been able to talk it out. Not so, this time. He's extraordinarily
responsible, self-reliant, and independent in almost every other way.
It's like he's rebelling against the only thing he has to rebel against.
And that tells me that I'm handling this wrong. But I don't know how I
*should* be handling it. >>>
>I ran this by my own 15 yr old daughter and this is what she said...
make sure that your voice is always calm and kind when talking about
this issue, turn lights off for him, put neon stickers above the light
switches as reminders, and don't nag.
For a while Chamille kept leaving the bathroom closet open. It wouldn't
have been a big deal at all except one of the cats kept climbing in
there and peeing on the towels. I found myself washing towels everyday,
checking the bathroom several times a day, reminding constantly, leaving
notes as reminders, etc. Then I decided to rearrange the closet and
that solved everything. The towels got put of higher than the cats
could get to easily, and the bottom shelves got all the lotions and
stuff. Amazingly though, she started remembering to close the door
after I did this.
jenstarc4
>over
> How knowledgeable are you about how much electricity is really used by
> different appliances? Because - too many parents nag their children
> things that are really quite negligible, while they don't make otherYes exactly! Lightbulbs are very inexpensive! I know from experience
> changes that would make much larger differences.
that the most expensive electrical appliance we have, the item that, by
far, costs the most money is the water heater. I know this because our
previous house had a gas water heater, and while our gas bill was
slightly higher than it is now, our electric bill was tiny. When we
moved our electric bill tripled in size even though it's a smaller
house. The ONLY difference is the water heater. We even have a new
energy efficient water heater and it's still very expensive!
Everything else, computers, lights, fans, stove, fridge, freezer is
nothing on that water heater. If it was a house I owned instead of
rented, I would seriously consider buying point source water heaters,
the kind that most people in Europe and Japan, and possibly other
places, have. Then I'd also have the added bonus of more closet space!