Sandra Dodd

This came by e-mail from someone who's been on two other lists, and it
seems maybe another example of bad advice elsewhere, but it could be
general confusion about "say yes."

I didn't think of any links right offhand so I'm hoping people here
will have suggestions and philosophy and links.

And I'll say again up front that I don't think blaming unschooling for
problems with two year olds is any good, as there's nowhere I know of
where two year olds are required by the government to go to school, so
it's not the unschooling, as Mary Gold says.

-----------------

My daughter is turning 2 on Saturday and I've been feeling overwhelmed
lately.

I'm pretty in tune with unschooling and where I'm out of tune. I've
been looking on your site and in the archives for help in how to speak
to Thea. I don't want to be controlling, but in not wanting to be
that, I feel like I'm allowing too much. I know that doesn't sound
right. I'm having trouble explaining this even to myself. Pam wrote
recently, though I can't find it, some actual phrases she used when
speaking with her children and they were very direct and clear as to
what needed to happen next say or say what was acceptable. I think I
get railroaded sometimes and because I don't want to control, Thea
gets free reign so to speak or I do find that I am trying to control
and unhappy with it and the results. This is long winded, I
apologize. I think I'm feeling unsure of what I guess would be a
gentle discipline of sorts, what it's okay to do or say sometimes.
Something is amiss, I can't even put my finger on it, hopefully that
means I'm nearing some kind of a breakthrough.

If I'm being clear enough, what I was hoping was that you could direct
me to perhaps something on your site or a previous discussion that
would help, that I am having trouble locating. Or any advice would be
so appreciated or a book, if one comes to mind.

---------------------

For me, for starters, I don't think a two year old should get "free
reign." I thing she should be presented with happy choices within the
range of the day. Instead of "you can wear anything on earth that you
can imagine, or nothing at all," maybe "We're going to the woods, so
pick long pants and close-toed shoes." And in the case of a two year
old, that's more like showing her what you think she should wear, or
just dressing her very happily and taking into consideration if she
wants to reject something, and advising and maybe vetoing her other
suggestions.

A sparkly bathing suit isn't good for tree climbing. A furry hoodie
isn't good for the beach (unless it's winter and nobody intends to
touch water).

In a partnership between an adult and a two year old, the two year old
can be given immense choice without the parent setting aside what she
knows would be helpful and useful and necessary.

Sandra

John and Amanda Slater

At two I think you have lots of control over the environment.  Make the house, at least most of it, so kid friendly she cannot get into much trouble.  Put markers, scissors, paint, breakables, etc out of her reach and view.  Put away off season clothes so they are not a temptation.  Don't go places inappropriate for a two year old.  Keep out appropriate snacks so she does not need to go in the cupboards.  Lay down with her at nap and bed time so going to bed is pleasant and looked forward to. 

That's all I can offer without a specific problem.

Amanda
Eli 8, Samuel 6 1/2





















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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I think I would really need more information to be able to say anything about what is going on in this case.
At this age kids need someone constantly next to them. 
I see too that some parents expect too much from little children and want them to be able to rationalize like adults.
Sandra talked about clothes choices.
My first question would be WHY?
Why can't my child not wear a coat to the beach?( for example- if she was set on it)
I would get her swimming suit under it and plenty of extra clothes and towels.
My kids were the kind of kids that always knew what they wanted to wear. Telling them NO would have created a battle and a huge melt down.
So I was always prepared with lots of extra clothes in the car. Once they got to the beach they would have gotten hot and removed the coat. I always explained to them that they might feel hot. More and more they would trust me and as they got older they were more likely to , and able, to correlate what I was saying to their experience.
Just yesterday at our County Fair my Mother -in-law had some new clothes for my 3 year old Gigi.
Right away Gigi wanted to wear the dress she got. It was a fall dress with long sleeves. I told her she might get hot. She still chose to do it and was OK with being hot.( It wasn't too hot anyways- but hot for ME)
So asking yourself why and taking in consideration  how your child handles certain things.
I know my sister's kids never cared what mom picked up for them to wear, so totally different than my kids.
That is not to say we don't ever say no.
We have been at the County Fair for the last 3 days ( today will be the last) showing our animals. We bring our food and drinks because the prices are absurd there and we cannot really afford it.
We also cannot afford the rides this year. Really. We are Dairy Farmers and we are running on negative.
So we told the kids when they asked that no we could not do the rides. They wanted to. They do trust us that when we say no it is because we really can't and there is a good reason.
I don't care if my daughter wears her pretty sandals to the barn. Why not? I got them on a garage sale.
I don't care if my son does not want to wear a jacket to go out in the winter. We take the jacket and warm up the car. Gosh I hate wearing a jacket in the car too. We won't frezze walking from the house to the car.
Even when the temperatures are in the teens.

It pays to be always prepared , having extra clothes, food and toys in the car, ...
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







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dinapug310

Since this has been posted here, I do not mind saying that I was the original sender. My name is Dina, I have a 2yo dd and am new to this list, but have been on a couple of others for a couple of years now. I found unschooling when I was pregnant and was thrilled, because it resonated so deeply and was an extension of the life I was living before motherhood.

--And I'll say again up front that I don't think blaming unschooling for
problems with two year olds is any good, as there's nowhere I know of
where two year olds are required by the government to go to school, so
it's not the unschooling...--

I'm not sure if or how this was being applied to my email, Sandra, I just want to clarify that I was not blaming unschooling in any way.

I'd like to say that I have had a great deal of clarity since first writing. It was just what I needed, to put the words out there and really chew on them. Plus after I hit send on the email, I randomized on Sandra's site until I got what I needed and my issue of late is mindfulness. I have not been as present as I should be lately. It made a world of difference even just today.

For the most part, we have a lovely, joyful home and life together. If anything, and part of my recently doubting myself, I am sometimes nudged by dh and my mom if she can get it in there, that I am a bit over the top in accomodating dd. I think it's in the "normal" range of this unconventional lifestyle, however. And dh understands a bit, but I don't really bother with my mom, though I will at some point.

I think that with Thea reaching this new period, things have become much faster and I have to be much more "on." And, I am getting stuck on a few points that perhaps you can make suggestions for, now that I am more clear in my thinking.

What I am looking for is terminology, verbage...this morning, upon waking (we cosleep), we nursed, read, played a bit, I said I wanted to change the sheets right away on Thea's bed so we had fun doing that together, then we got up and she quickly saw her ball and we recently made up a new game so she wanted to play that in the bedroom a bit more. We did that. At some point, I had to get breakfast going. I gave her a heads up while we were playing that we'd eat soon, so she knew, and after a decent amount of playing time (to me, I guess) I said let's go in the kitchen. She didn't want to. Here is where I start to internally squirm. I don't want her to be upset, but we have to move on to the next thing at some point. I rolled out of it by asking her if she wanted to crack the eggs, which I then wondered if was a form of coercion. This is the kind of situation I wonder about. What do you say and how do you be firm? I know the more creative I can be, the better, but sometimes, things have to be a certain way and believe me, often I'll avoid things if I can, which is where part of the free reign I was speaking of comes in.

Sandra, I read in the archives a statement you said to the effect that you wouldn't let your kids carve into the wooden table. How do you say the 'no, you can't carve into the wooden table' part?

Also, Thea is sometimes throwing down an object that frustrates her. I'm always sure to let her know that I'm there, that I see how it can be frustrating, etc and help her if she wants it, but when she gets upset, she'll do that or put her head down on the floor for a while. I am wondering if these are normal behaviors that I should just be with or am I and dh creating some kind of distress in the home causing the behavior. I know everyone has an outlet, I think. Part of my problem, which is completely my thing, is in thinking that this wonderful way of raising my daughter is going to help always have things go smoothly and she'll never have a problem. In fact, recently in another post Pam said of her daughters from time to time having some behavior issues that needed to be worked out and that was helpful to hear, for me. I know I can have perfectionistic ideals, I do my best to be aware of and release them before they get in dd's way.

Let me stop here.

Thank you all for your help.
Dina

claire.horsley08

My daughter Eden has also just turned two. It's an interesting time because her ability to express her own will is increasing, but her emotions are also very strong and can be overwhelming. I have lots of occasions to think about saying yes and saying no!

For example, last weekend my older daughter wanted to go on a pony ride, and when we got to the riding centre, Eden very much wanted to have a ride too. Now the minimum age is supposed to be 3, but when I offered to walk next to her and hold her while she was sitting on the pony, the riding instructor agreed. So, to generalise from this example, if a 2-year old wants to participate in something and it can be done safely, say yes.

However, when the 1/2 hour ride was over, Eden was extremely upset (crying and throwing herself on the ground). I stayed right next to her, comforting her until she calmed. I was not angry or even embarrassed (before reading here I would have been embarrassed!). I just allowed her to express her emotions and then quickly moved on by jiggling and singing to her as we walked to the car.

Another example is that when she is angry Eden will throw any object within reach across the room (including food). Obviously I don't want this to happen because she may hurt someone. I used to sternly say 'no, Eden, don't throw!' until I realised the utter futility of this approach. What I do now is a) take her desires seriously by trying to get her the thing she wants, rather than fobbing her off with something else, b) model using respectful language, and explaining that throwing is not okay because she might hurt someone, and c) as a last resort, I put my hand on the object as well, so it can't be thrown.

But ultimately the best strategy is to create an environment in which children are generally not frustrated, angry and upset. Two year
olds thrive on lots of love, attention, physical play, variety, playing in the sand pit, water play, singing, being read to, plenty of snacks and drinks, swings and playgrounds. To allow Eden to do an activity and still keep her safe I stay right with her, and will probably need to keep doing this for at least the next 12 months.

The great thing is that in dealing calmly, respectfully and lovingly with my daughter's emotions, I feel that I CAN do this, and that the reward of a close and happy relationship is so worth it!

Sandra Dodd

-= I don't want her to be upset, but we have to move on to the next
thing at some point. I rolled out of it by asking her if she wanted to
crack the eggs, which I then wondered if was a form of coercion.-=-

Be careful of "have to." If you think of it as something you "have
to" do, she becomes an obstacle. I'm not saying there aren't things
that would hamper life if you didn't do them. Food, laundry,
cleaning the cat box, watering dying plants... still they're choices.

-=-What do you say and how do you be firm? I know the more creative I
can be, the better,-=-

Do you have to be firm or creative to get your husband to do things?
If you make them seem fun, or if you simply state the reasons, your
husband's probably willing to go along. A baby doesn't have the same
kinds of awareness and reasoning an adult has, but still you could
talk to her about why you want to (not "have to") move to the
kitchen. You could talk to her about it while you've picked her and
her ball up and tell her you have an idea for another game. And you
could put some plastic bowls down for targets maybe, or a pan she
could put the ball in. Maybe give her a ladle to try to fish the ball
out with. Meanwhile, you'd be in the kitchen and she might be
happily doing something new.

-=-Sandra, I read in the archives a statement you said to the effect
that you wouldn't let your kids carve into the wooden table. How do
you say the 'no, you can't carve into the wooden table' part?-=-

HEY! Don't.
Just like that. Just as I would if my neighbor came over and
commenced to look like she was going to carve something up in my house.
For the neighbor, I might say "Carve your own table." For the kids
I'd offer something more interesting that that knife, put the knife
away, and be more careful in the future not to leave my kids bored
with a knife and my table as their only toys.

-=-Also, Thea is sometimes throwing down an object that frustrates
her. I'm always sure to let her know that I'm there, that I see how it
can be frustrating, etc and help her if she wants it, but when she
gets upset, she'll do that or put her head down on the floor for a
while.-=-

Are you talking to a one year old about being there and knowing she
can be frustrated? To a one year old, most of that will sound like
"blah blah BLAHdee blah blah." Help her with the objects or find less
frustrating objects.

-=-I know everyone has an outlet, I think.-=-

An outlet such as what? Putting her head down on the floor? Throwing
things?

People have MANY outlets. "Outlets" are sometimes attempts at
communication. Sometimes they're self-soothing ways to deal with
frustration, or ways to discharge adrenaline.

Can you rephrase "everyone has an outlet," please?

Sandra




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Sandra Dodd

Before any of my "yeah but" analysis, I want to quote this up top and
say it's wonderful and everyone with young children should consider
printing it out or setting it to a tune and singing it sometimes!

"[U]ltimately the best strategy is to create an environment in which
children are generally not frustrated, angry and upset. Two year
olds thrive on lots of love, attention, physical play, variety,
playing in the sand pit, water play, singing, being read to, plenty of
snacks and drinks, swings and playgrounds. To allow Eden to do an
activity and still keep her safe I stay right with her, and will
probably need to keep doing this for at least the next 12 months."

-=-Another example is that when she is angry Eden will throw any
object within reach across the room (including food). Obviously I
don't want this to happen because she may hurt someone. I used to
sternly say 'no, Eden, don't throw!' until I realised the utter
futility of this approach-=-

I would think you don't want it to happen because it's damaging to the
house, wasteful of food, and it keeps her from finding other ways to
handle frustration.

Instead of "No, Eden, don't throw," what about just "Why are you
throwing that?" or "HEY!" But if she's two, and she has more ammo
to throw, take her supplies out. If she's throwing blocks, get her
away from the blocks, or put something over them while you're talking
to her, like a blanket maybe. Or pick her up and talk to her or get
her to a softer place--a bed or somewhere, and talk to her nicely.
If she's throwing corn or peas and there's more where that came from,
scoot the bowl over or just pick it up and move it.

-=-What I do now is a) take her desires seriously by trying to get her
the thing she wants, rather than fobbing her off with something else,
b) model using respectful language, and explaining that throwing is
not okay because she might hurt someone, and c) as a last resort, I
put my hand on the object as well, so it can't be thrown.-=-

I think C should be the first option, and A might have been good
before she was throwing things, but it depends what the desired object
or activity in A is. If a kid wants to take a hatchet to the cat,
don't try to get her that thing. Don't consider it "fobbing off" to
find an interesting alternative. You want her to be safe and engaged
with something that makes her think, so if you have ideas you know
she'll like and her original idea was problematical, don't think of it
as you having failed or taken a bad plan B. It might be the most
brilliant plan ever.

Young children really do need the presence and attention of an adult.
There's no way around it.

Sandra







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Sandra Dodd

-=-
I'm not sure if or how this was being applied to my email, Sandra, I
just want to clarify that I was not blaming unschooling in any way.-=-

Even talking about unschooling with a one-year-old, though, seems to
me to be shining the flashlight into the basement to look for
something in the attic. And people DO "blame" unschooling, every
day, all the time. Someone who doesn't have a car big enough for the
whole family will complain that unschooling doesn't work because her
kids are tired of being stuck at home and there's not anywhere near
enough to walk to that they haven't already seen. Someone who can't
persuade her own husband or mother that unschooling is a good idea
because she herself either can't understand it or can't articulate it
will blame us or unschooling.

When an idea is put on the list here it's the idea we're looking at
then, not the original poster's life. And in this case the original
poster was me! <g> I was after a discussion of ideas.

Sandra






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Ren Allen

~~How do you say the 'no, you
can't carve into the wooden table' part?~~

"NO, you can't carve into the wooden table".
Just NO is ok!!

Or, "hey, here's a piece of wood you can carve on, I don't want anyone carving on the table"

But why would a two year old be carving into wood with a knife anyway? My children certainly didn't have the awareness or skills at that age to safely use sharp knives.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

dinapug310

=-Also, Thea is sometimes throwing down an object that frustrates
> her. I'm always sure to let her know that I'm there, that I see how it
> can be frustrating, etc and help her if she wants it, but when she
> gets upset, she'll do that or put her head down on the floor for a
> while.-=-
>
> Are you talking to a one year old about being there and knowing she
> can be frustrated? To a one year old, most of that will sound like
> "blah blah BLAHdee blah blah." Help her with the objects or find less
> frustrating objects.

Did you mean 2 year old? Not nit-picking, just wondering if you were making a diferent point that I don't understand. I think that she, at 2, can understand me validating her feeling of frustration even if it's just through my tone and movement toward her and it to help her. Our home is very kid friendly, but sometimes, for example, when she takes the back off of the remote control to the dvd player which she has access to, because she can and does like to use it if she's watching a movie, she can't get it back on. She will then, sometimes, throw it down. I could tape it, I guess, but then she knows that it comes off and now I've prevented that.
She was throwing a Mrs. Potato Head flower bracelet that didn't stay on, because it frustrated her. I put it away somewhere. If she asks for it back, I'll give it to her, but for now it's out of sight.

-=-I know everyone has an outlet, I think.-=-
>
> An outlet such as what? Putting her head down on the floor? Throwing
> things?
>
> People have MANY outlets. "Outlets" are sometimes attempts at
> communication. Sometimes they're self-soothing ways to deal with
> frustration, or ways to discharge adrenaline.
>
> Can you rephrase "everyone has an outlet," please?
>

Yes, I mean a way of expressing a healthy release of emotions. And I'm wondering if they're good to have or should I be better able to handle every possibile frustration? Of course it's not possible and I don't think that's healthy. But creating circumstances that will limit those potentials, I do.

I am also questioning conventional wisdom and am looking to bounce it off of people that I trust. So if it's common for 'many kids' let's say, to put they're heads down when they're frustrated, well, I'm wondering if that's true or true for conventional parenting practices. I may be lacking in an area that I need to adjust for her and myself. Or I'm simply overthinking the whole bit. <g>

Dina

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/29/2009 7:47 PM, dinapug310 wrote:
> I gave her a heads up while we were playing that we'd eat soon, so she knew, and after a decent amount of playing time (to me, I guess) I said let's go in the kitchen.
First, "have to start breakfast?" Who is the breakfast for? You and your
daughter only or do you have boarders you've committed to feeding or
something like that? It is terrifically helpful to catch yourself
saying "have to" and question that, right then and there. When I had a 2
year old, breakfast was never something I had to "get started." We'd
scrounge up a bowl of cereal and some fruit or make some toast and
peanut butter WHEN we were hungry (when I saw the signs of hunger) or
when it was convenient. Honestly, I'd probably have stayed and played
for as long as my daughter wanted, if it was a sweet and happy game.
Savor those times - I know she's only 2, but time will go quickly. Don't
be thinking about what else you "have to" do.
> She didn't want to. Here is where I start to internally squirm. I don't want her to be upset, but we have to move on to the next thing at some point.
Your 'next thing' is being with your daughter. You've got your
priorities a little skewed. Ask yourself "why" about each of those
things you think you need to move on to. Especially ask, "Why now?"
> I rolled out of it by asking her if she wanted to crack the eggs, which I then wondered if was a form of coercion.

Holy cow - seriously? You offered her a fun thing to do and she
accepted. So - I suggest you get the word coercion out of your
vocabulary - you are in NO danger of coercing your child. Far from it.
Stop worrying about it. Maybe just think about being nice and kind and
gentle and supportive.
> This is the kind of situation I wonder about. What do you say and how do you be firm?
"Be firm" is conventional parenting lingo, right? Parents are supposed
to be kind, but firm?

There is something about your questions, Dina, that makes me think
you're complicating things, in your head, that you've read a bunch of
noncoercive parenting stuff and maybe some more conventional parenting
stuff, plus the unschooling stuff, and all that is interfering with you
being natural and honest and real with your daughter. Simplify it all -
use simple words to think about it and don't use words that have baggage
or specialized meanings (like coerce). Run everything through your OWN
filter of - "Does this seem to make sense with MY child right now?"

> I know the more creative I can be, the better, but sometimes,
> things have to be a certain way and believe me, often I'll avoid things if I can, which is where part of the free reign I was speaking of comes in.
>
Things seldom have to be a certain way. Could you post more about this
thought - what things are you thinking about here? I think if we
consider them together, we can loosen up your feelings and help you feel
more free to BE more creative in your daily living with your daughter.
Also, if you find you're avoiding things - I have two responses. One -
those are things you don't want to do so see if you can figure out a way
to avoid doing them at all. Put your creativity to work on that. Second
- if it is things like housework that you're avoiding - there is a very
very good chance that you're making it too high a priority for someone
with a two year old. Do the minimum, enjoy it when you DO have a chance
to do it, and consider hiring a mother's helper. If I had it to do over
again, the one thing that would have made our lives much smoother and
happier would have been to find a teenage girl who wanted to earn a
little extra money and pay her to come in several days a week for just
an hour or two and do some dishes, clean the bathroom, clear up some
clutter. Anyway, when you say, "the more creative I can be, the
better," I think you mean the more "fun" you can be with your daughter.
That's good. Be fun - support her life being fun, as much as you can.
Relax. This is going to be SO good for you - you're a little high-strung
and, as you said, perfectionistic, and your daughter is offering you the
chance to mellow out and enjoy life more. Take the chance.
> Sandra, I read in the archives a statement you said to the effect that you wouldn't let your kids carve into the wooden table. How do you say the 'no, you can't carve into the wooden table' part?
>
You say, "Don't carve the table. Here, let's go outside and find some
wood you can carve." Or, "Don't carve the table," and you turn on the
tv to a movie she likes. Or, sometimes you don't even have to say
anything - you just distract her from carving the table.
> Also, Thea is sometimes throwing down an object that frustrates her.
That's okay. It is normal two-year-old behavior. Frustration is part of
life for two-year-olds and we can be there to help them, but we can't
eliminate all frustration - it is built into being unskilled and little
and not having enough vocabulary yet to fully express themselves and all
that.

If she's throwing things down in frustration, you might be able to pay
a little more attention and see the frustration about to build up and
help her just at the right time to prevent it - but, honestly, don't
expect yourself to be able to always do that - 2 year olds will be
frustrated.
> I'm always sure to let her know that I'm there, that I see how it can be frustrating, etc and help her if she wants it, but when she gets upset, she'll do that or put her head down on the floor for a while.
That's not bad, either. She's got herself a self-soothing mechanism -
putting her head down on the floor - maybe think of it as her way of
centering herself - a moment of meditation. Just be there for her - but
don't TALK so much. Sometimes just a word or two - sometimes not even a
word, just a soothing sound or a gentle little bit of a rub on the back
is enough for her to know you're there. SHE knows you will help, you
don't have to tell her. Sometimes, when little ones are frustrated,
parents add to their frustration by talking at them. It puts even more
pressure on them because not only they can't do or handle what they
wanted, but often the last thing they want is someone else to do it for
them. That just makes them feel even less capable. Also, they don't have
the vocabulary to express their complicated feelings and so they get
even more frustrated with not being able to think clearly, much less
express to you, what the problem is.
> I am wondering if these are normal behaviors that I should just be with or am I and dh creating some kind of distress in the home causing the behavior.
Normal. But you might be making them happen more often than necessary if
YOU are very often trying to make her move on to "the next thing" when
she's not ready. Sounds like you do need to slow down into more of a "Be
Here Now" state of mind - not be thinking about the other things you
"have to" do.
> I know everyone has an outlet, I think. Part of my problem, which is completely my thing, is in thinking that this wonderful way of raising my daughter is going to help always have things go smoothly and she'll never have a problem.
This wonderful way of living helps us respond to those not-smooth times
with gentleness and kindness and in helpful ways, rather than shaming or
being punitive. And, over the years, life will be SO much easier and
happier and smoother. But there will ALWAYS be less-than-wonderful
moments, for various reasons. Right now, she's two and the reasons have
mainly to do with her stage of development and your own development as a
mother. But, later, there will be things that aren't in your control -
other kids will be mean to yours, you won't be able to afford something
she wants, she won't get a role she auditioned for -- these are
realities of life - there are disappointments, there are times we're
tired and cranky and hard to get along with. There are times our kids
will be unreasonable and times we will be unreasonable.

Aha - I just had a little realization. Do some of you think that our
goal is to eliminate any possible unhappy moments from our children's
lives? To give them a wrinkle-free childhood? You know the bumper
sticker, " Shit Happens," right? It is how we react to what happens that
matters - are we on their side or do we blame and shame them? We aren't
failing when things don't go right; we are failing when we don't respond
helpfully and supportively when things don't go right.
> In fact, recently in another post Pam said of her daughters from time to time having some behavior issues that needed to be worked out and that was helpful to hear, for me. I know I can have perfectionistic ideals, I do my best to be aware of and release them before they get in dd's way.
>

First of all, a group of people living under one roof are going t have
conflicts. You have just one little one and can put all your focus on
her and STILL there are times that her needs and wants conflict with
yours, right? So - you try to find ways of meeting each person's needs
and wants, and you get to practice that now while it is pretty
straightforward (she wants to play ball, you want to make breakfast). By
the time she's older and might have siblings and will almost certainly
have other people in your lives (friends, neighbors, extended family),
you'll have some experience in working together to balance out
conflicting wants and you'll have created a sense of teamwork and
consensual living with each other.

When Roxana lived in France for 3 months, with a large group of other
young adults - 18 to 20 year olds - they began to turn to her to help
them sort out conflicts. SHE became known as the person who could find
solutions. She was struck by how little ability the others had to
resolve apparent conflicts of interest and, mostly, she was struck by
how unwilling or unable they seemed to be to see a solution as even
possible. The irony is that, in our family, she's the one who has had
the hardest time, over the years, staying solution-oriented, thinking of
ways to resolve conflicts to everyone's satisfaction. She's the one who
was always most likely to give up or get angry (frustrated). She's easy
to get along with, these days. I thought, for some years, that she'd
never be able to live with anyone but us - that nobody else would be
willing to just keep trying to get along with her. She went to a school
for kindergarten and our goal for her, there, was to get through a full
day without having a big emotional melt down. But she's off to college
in September and I have no doubt that she'll be the best roommate on the
campus. Seriously - she's the EASIEST person imaginable to get along
with, now. She's still very sensitive - she feels things very very
deeply. But she can handle herself - can handle her own emotional
reactions. She's a person I would describe as very centered and stable,
these days.

So - keep reading. We DO talk about the problems and difficulties we've
had and how this unschooling lifestyle has played out in our real lives.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/29/2009 9:46 PM, claire.horsley08 wrote:
> What I do now is a) take her desires seriously by trying to get her the thing she wants, rather than fobbing her off with something else, b) model using respectful language, and explaining that throwing is not okay because she might hurt someone, and c) as a last resort, I put my hand on the object as well, so it can't be thrown.
>

Sometimes we have a hard time explaining what we're physically doing -
we write about what we "say" and not so much about what we "do."

I liked the use of the word "jiggling" in Claire's post. That's a good
description of something I could do with Roya. I called it "jollying her
up." The problem is it can sound so disrespectful. But, with Roya, I
knew sort of when she was ready to move on and I could cuddle her for a
moment and then turn it into silly physical play. She was a very
physical little girl - the tension of an upset time was well released
with some "jiggling."

In what Claire wrote above - I think I would have been likely to have
had number 3 as number 1 --- just gently have my hand on the thing that
might be about to be thrown. I don't encourage lots and lots of talking
and explaining. If you've said it a few times already, don't insult
their intelligence by repeating yourself as if THIS time they'll get
it. They'll stop paying attention to what you say, if what you say is
repetitive and not useful.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-Did you mean 2 year old? Not nit-picking, just wondering if you
were making a diferent point that I don't understand. I think that
she, at 2, can understand me validating her feeling of frustration
even if it's just through my tone and movement toward her and it to
help her-=-

Nearly two and nearly three are not so different, as to the way a
parent can act. I can't pick Holly up and rock her, at 17. When she
was four and younger, I could. I'm unwilling to discuss in detail
differences in the way a parent might "unschool" a two year old or one
year old or three year old.

A week-old baby can understand a parent validating his feelings. A
five year old can too.

Just because a child is becoming verbal does NOT mean her analytical
skills have kicked in.

http://sandradodd.com/piaget

-=- Our home is very kid friendly, but sometimes, for example, when
she takes the back off of the remote control to the dvd player which
she has access to, because she can and does like to use it if she's
watching a movie, she can't get it back on. She will then, sometimes,
throw it down.-=-

Where's the parent? Aren't there toys in there she can play with that
are more interesting than taking the back off the remote?

-=-I could tape it, I guess, but then she knows that it comes off and
now I've prevented that. -=-

So what?
There are fragile parts in there. She doesn't need to be touching the
battery, and certainly not putting in her mouth. It's not safe or
sensible to think that a child has the right to take the back off
something or that just because she knows how to dismantle something
that the parent has lost the right to tape, latch, screw-together or
lock it down.

-=- So if it's common for 'many kids' let's say, to put they're heads
down when they're frustrated, well, I'm wondering if that's true or
true for conventional parenting practices-=-

Conventional parenting neither requires nor forbids children to put
their heads down if they're frustrated. Most adults will put their
heads down when they're frustrated, don't you think? Lean over onto
a hand or two, or lean back on the couch or in a recliner, or go and
lie down a while?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dinapug310

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> There is something about your questions, Dina, that makes me think
> you're complicating things, in your head, that you've read a bunch of
> noncoercive parenting stuff and maybe some more conventional parenting
> stuff, plus the unschooling stuff, and all that is interfering with you
> being natural and honest and real with your daughter. Simplify it all -
> use simple words to think about it and don't use words that have baggage
> or specialized meanings (like coerce). Run everything through your OWN
> filter of - "Does this seem to make sense with MY child right now?"


Pam, first let me thank you for your thoughtful, thorough and very accurate response. You have hit on every concern I had and are very clear.

To be honest, up until recently, I felt confident in most of what I was doing. Not that I didn't feel I could always learn more and get great ideas, but that was part of what I was doing well in my approach. I did also have a couple of questions and concerns that I voiced on another list and got clear on what I needed and kept going. But, just now, as we're approaching 2 and I see these more emotional behaviors surfacing and feeling a few times like I was trying to control Thea, which I do not want to do, I did get stuck in my head about things and wondered 'is the behavioral stuff normal, is what I think I'm doing really working/going to work in the long run, am I doing it right? Sould I be able to be firm' (I don't like the term, anyway!? Plus, some unsolicited advice which I vetoed when I heard it, but then second guessed myself in the end...all lead to this questioning of myself. And in going through it, I was thinking about it all a lot and I just haven't been as present with Thea and my true feelings and filters as I should be.

Thank you for helping me get back on track and clearing this congestion!

Dina

claire.horsley08

Thank you, wise mentors, for both the encouragement and the 'yeah but analysis'. I need both to keep travelling happily on our unschooling journey. I truly believe that one of the best ways to learn parenting skills is from trusted role-models, of which I have very few in real life. Thank goodness for this list and the advice from people who've been doing this far longer than me!