Melissa Dietrick

su penn wrote:
<<<<So I don't give my kids my radical ideological version of things (not
even about unschooling!), and I stay open to the possibility that they
will disagree with me about some things.<<<<

and John Holt :
<<<<< "To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes! No
tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be better; at
least they could figure out some things on their own. Live together, as well
as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can." <<<<<<<<<


so I am here again: on monday Shanti will be having her annual exam for the
3rd grade. Ive not even been a bit nervous this year...til today, that is.
Today I spoke on the phone to the vice principal(she called to give me the
date and time)...she was in a "warning" way: letting me know that this year
wont be like last years exam (doh) but when I ask what we can expect, "well,
it will be similar but..."(!)
I let her know that I was interested in participated the next time around in
the making or planning of the exam (not okay it seems)...I explained that it
was a little strange to be testing a person so arbitrarily. They are
choosing the material on what the government wants, yet our personal
approach is not taken into account.

I am not feeling comfortable for several reasons...mainly I dont want to
test shanti.
I dont like that she has to sit down to do all these subjects for hours on
end...and she is able to figure out if she isnt able to do something...and I
worry about this. Her older brothers are often "testing" her already, and
creates alot of friction. She isnt always into it and if she doesnt answer,
they taunt her rather mercelessly (they are in school--their choice).

I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to prepare her more for these
tests. If she doesnt "pass" I will have to keep it secret from the whole
family, basically. This bothers me, I guess.
I dont care about the passing or not, but I worry: she will have a good idea
whether she did or not.
I will know and am not very good at lying. If I dont look, or say that I
dont look, my olders will just assume, for the fun of teasing, that she
failed.

This is definitely bothering me. Can you all help me out of this hole I am
digging for myself?

I also would love any pointers to writings/llinks that talk about the
futility of testing. Why it is bad for learning...
I think it would be nice to have something to translate.

thanks alot,
melissa
in italy
mamma di 7
unschooling in heart and soul the whole family, but unschooling in reality
only shanti (9), giacomo leo(6)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I let her know that I was interested in participated the next time
around in
the making or planning of the exam (not okay it seems)...I explained
that it
was a little strange to be testing a person so arbitrarily. They are
choosing the material on what the government wants, yet our personal
approach is not taken into account.-=-

I doubt they design their own exams. They're probably government
mandated standardized tests.

They didn't "choose" the material, probably. And it's not "what the
government wants," it's what the board of education at the state level
has approved as the curriculum.

And NO, hell no, your personal approach is not taken into account.
Unschooling isn't above or beyond the law. If the law specifies that
home education will be the equivalent of school (and most do), then
you are responsible to know that. And you can either try to work
those kinds of things in to what you do in your life (especially if
you live where kids will be tested, but I did it even without that,
generally speaking) or you can knowingly ignore that detail (which
I've also done in several ways), but you can't tell the school that
they should take your approach into account.

Do you have the option to test the kids yourself with a purchased
test, or to have a private test session with a psychologist or
certified teacher? Do you have the option to use a portfolio
instead? Do you have the option to sign them up with a covering
school (or Clonlara or some such) to change testing options? Could
they be hooked up with a school outside of Italy?

You could leave the country and just not be there on Monday. <g> When
Kirby was going to have a third grade test, I just didn't take him.
When they contacted me about a makeup test, we left the county and
stayed gone for two days so I could honestly say "We were out of
town." There was no more follow up. I knew from having taught in the
schools that the tests weren't for individuals, but for group
statistics, and those who missed the test date and makeup date
wouldn't be hunted down unless there was the change of federal funding
from them testing very high or low, and they're not getting any money
from homeschoolers.

-=-I dont like that she has to sit down to do all these subjects for
hours on
end...-=-

Don't say "has to" if it's not a "has to."

-=-She isnt always into it and if she doesnt answer,
they taunt her rather mercelessly (they are in school--their choice).-=-

Tell them they can be in school but they can't bring school home.
"Mercilessly" is not a reasonable option here. You need to protect
your daughter in your own home from any merciless behavior.

-=-I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to prepare her more
for these
tests. If she doesnt "pass" I will have to keep it secret from the whole
family, basically.-=-

Absolutely. If she "has to" take the tests, if it's really a "have
to" situation you can't avoid, then prepare her for them. If she's
being taunted and tested, unschooling might not work for you. If
the country you're in doesn't allow for homeschooling, and if you
can't leave, then don't homeschool. There are ways to make school
easier and more fun for your kids if that's an easier and less
stressful option than trying to homeschool where there's no support at
all.

Sandra




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Su Penn

On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> You could leave the country and just not be there on Monday. <g> When
> Kirby was going to have a third grade test, I just didn't take him.
> When they contacted me about a makeup test, we left the county and
> stayed gone for two days so I could honestly say "We were out of
> town." There was no more follow up. I knew from having taught in the
> schools that the tests weren't for individuals, but for group
> statistics, and those who missed the test date and makeup date
> wouldn't be hunted down unless there was the change of federal funding
> from them testing very high or low, and they're not getting any money
> from homeschoolers.


This wouldn't work if annual testing is required, but I remember
hearing one mom tell the story of how in her state kids were required
to be tested in third grade. She responded by never having a third-
grader. Sadly, all of her children had to repeat second grade--but
having gone through the material a second time, had advanced so much
that they could then move directly to fourth.

Su

Mom of Eric, 8; Carl, 5; Yehva, 22 months

Sandra Dodd

-=-This wouldn't work if annual testing is required, but I remember
hearing one mom tell the story of how in her state kids were required
to be tested in third grade. She responded by never having a third-
grader. Sadly, all of her children had to repeat second grade--but
having gone through the material a second time, had advanced so much
that they could then move directly to fourth.=-

In New Mexico when we had testing requirements in three of twelve
grades (they changed which three years after a while, and then dropped
the whole thing), we stated each year what grade the kids were in.
There were very few kids in those grades, among the unschoolers. <g>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/10/2009 6:51 AM, Melissa Dietrick wrote:
> I also would love any pointers to writings/llinks that talk about the
> futility of testing. Why it is bad for learning...
>

It is bad for learning because it puts your focus on what someone else
thinks should be learned right now, rather than on where the child
really is in her own learning and development. It means parents, like
you, or teachers, more often, try to teach kids things that the kids
aren't interested in or developmentally read for. That creates
resistance or apathy. Resistance can be active or passive, but either
way it is a child feeling the parent (or teacher) is an adversary who is
trying to shove something down their throat (lovely image, isn't it?).
Some kids become apathetic - they "give in" and try to do as they're
told. They become passive and lose their sense of self - they lose their
enthusiasm for learning, their curiosity about the wonders of the world
just fades away, their eyes lose the sparkle of the love of life that
all children have at 3 years old, before it is schooled out of them.

A test, in and of itself, isn't a bad or a good thing. Lots of us take
"tests" for fun on FaceBook, right? And kids often test themselves:
"Mom, count how many times I can do this in 1 minute."

For some children, being tested on material they may have been taught,
but never really felt they "owned," is very stressful and they
experience a brain-shutdown. They feel stupid. They become convinced
that they are not good at learning. This leads to a vicious cycle that
can affect them the rest of their lives.

For other children, testing is very mechanical - they go through the
motions and don't care much about the test. These kids have already
reacted to forced education by giving up caring about what is being done
to them. They just go along with the program with little to no
initiative or even awareness.

Some kids are good at test-taking - they can eliminate some answers in
multiple choice tests through logic, sometimes based only on how the
answers are written, not through prior knowledge of the material. Some
kids just happen to have been interested enough to learn, or they are
compliant enough to force themselves to memorize stuff they weren't
interested in. They do well on the tests and think highly of themselves
and think other students are lazy or stupid - or both. Yeah, there is a
good attitude to be fostering in children.

If testing is truly legally required and there is really no way around
it, then I think it is essential that the child be helped to understand
what's really going on. "The government says kids are supposed to learn
certain things at certain times. THEY want to control your learning. But
we disagree with them. You don't need to learn what they say, when they
say," etc. I'd want my child to be clear on why she was being tested on
stuff that she probably didn't even have the chance to learn if you're
not following the official curriculum. Otherwise, it is a dirty trick to
play on her, right?

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

www.alfiekohn.org has lots on the detrimental effects of testing

Lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Dietrick

<<<< I doubt they design their own exams. They're probably government mandated standardized tests.<<<<

they do design their own exams, because homesschooling is so very uncommon here the dept. of education cant be bothered.

<<<< They didn't "choose" the material, probably. And it's not "what the government wants," it's what the board of education at the state level has approved as the curriculum.<<<<

yes I realize this is how it is in the US but here in italy, the dept of education decides the nationwide curriculum, from elementary thru university. :o( and it changes from mandate to mandate, which in italy, is usually pretty quick.

>
> And NO, hell no, your personal approach is not taken into account.
> Unschooling isn't above or beyond the law. If the law specifies that
> home education will be the equivalent of school (and most do), then
> you are responsible to know that.

thanks for walking me thru this...let me see, the law in italy (Im sorry sandra, I realise Im bringing issues that are particular to my country whic you try to avoid doing, but I really do need some philosophical and practical moral support) says that I may home educate my child, but it doesnt "have" to be the same as public school curriculum. But I do have to submit for testing, as would any private school that doesnt adopt the p.s. curriculum (such as waldorf/stienerschools for ex.). The difference with a private school is that the school can decide not to adhere to the test results for grade placement (what many homeschoolers are doing now) but I am all alone here...so for the moment Creating a school ad hoc is not within my possiblities. maybe in the future.


<<<And you can either try to work those kinds of things in to what you do in your life (especially if you live where kids will be tested, but I did it even without that, generally speaking) <<<<

yes we do this...but for ex. science this year is dinosaurs and big bang (in proper order tho)...but shanti is rather tired of that--her big bro was super into this for years and she tagged along for the ride :o). This year they are totally into other stuff, that is not on the curriculum at all.


<<<<or you can knowingly ignore that detail (which
> I've also done in several ways),<<<<

Im not sure what you mean by ignoring that detail?


<<<<but you can't tell the school that
> they should take your approach into account.<<<

I see your point, however I was not "telling them" but rather asking them whether it would be possible for me to collaborate in creating the exam. My idea is this: if I am the teacher (according to law I am) then I would like to have a good idea as to what will be on the exam. That way I am able to strew (if that can be called strewing!) a little more specifically...a program covers alot of ground in a year. Normally a child would not be expected to remember it all by heart. yet that is how it works. No multiple choice exams...those are easy for her! she likes to do worksheets etc if the topic is of interest...(not that we do them very much...but they come up once in a while thru the internet)

>
> Do you have the option to test the kids yourself with a purchased
> test, or to have a private test session with a psychologist or
> certified teacher?

Nothing like that. It is a test session with 3 teachers present, her alone (i insist on my presence, they didnt have trouble last year with that), in the local public school.

<<Do you have the option to use a portfolio instead? <<<

I asked if doing a daily portfolio could take the place of an annual exam, and was told that the portfolio is appreciated but the exam happens anyway. I decided not to do a daily log, but I do save the bits and pieces that she creates along the way. I wont be showing them her writing tho-she considers that personal and private.

<<<Do you have the option to sign them up with a covering
> school (or Clonlara or some such) to change testing options?<<<

I tried that (clonlara or 12K) but she would still be subject to annual testing because it is not using the govt. approved curriculum.
we are trying to organise an online govt approved school here in italy, but it wont be happening very fast.

<<Could they be hooked up with a school outside of Italy?<<
no, for the govt. approved curric. being needed.

>
> You could leave the country and just not be there on Monday. <g>

I would love to beable to do this. Yet not showing up just postpones the exam to sept. with possible complications of ASL (the social services in italy) showing up on my doorstep. I also would like to maintain at least polite if not amicable relations with the local school (who are in charge of our plight :o/)



<<When Kirby was going to have a third grade test, I just didn't take him. When they contacted me about a makeup test, we left the county and stayed gone for two days so I could honestly say "We were out of town." There was no more follow up. I knew from having taught in the schools that the tests weren't for individuals, but for group statistics, and those who missed the test date and makeup date wouldn't be hunted down unless there was the change of federal funding from them testing very high or low, and they're not getting any money from homeschoolers.<<<

it wont work for me here in italy...Shanti is probably the only test taker in the province. The school receives funding for taking care of her paper work. She counts even if homeschooled.


> -=-I dont like that she has to sit down to do all these subjects for hours on end...-=-
>
> Don't say "has to" if it's not a "has to."
>
(Just to clarify, I was referring to the exam, sitting there for hours, not to the unschooling gone homeschooling).
What do you think, sandra? honestly? My guess is that it is a has to. Id love to be jumping countries, go to the french riviera for a week...but dh is worried about the soc. services. I cant really go against his fears, can I? would you?


> -=-She isnt always into it and if she doesnt answer,
> they taunt her rather mercelessly (they are in school--their choice).-=-
>
> Tell them they can be in school but they can't bring school home.
> "Mercilessly" is not a reasonable option here. You need to protect
> your daughter in your own home from any merciless behavior.

In fact! this is a definite priority. I love this :" Tell them they can be in school but they can't bring school home."
This is a nice way to say it. I dont even mind the "testing", nor does she, but because it sometimes turns into taunting Ive been cutting it short, and not being very nice :o(. But Ive been wondering where talking gets in the way. I like saying it like that.
(that was why I put su pen's quote up there, it inspired me to write you).

>
> -=-I sometimes wonder whether it would be better to prepare her more for these tests. If she doesnt "pass" I will have to keep it secret from the whole family, basically.-=-
>
><<<< Absolutely. If she "has to" take the tests, if it's really a "have to" situation you can't avoid, then prepare her for them. If she's being taunted and tested, unschooling might not work for you.<<<

So that is it? prepare her for them? The taunting is much much better lately (past 4 months), really, but in combination with the exams, I am worrying. The italian unschooler types (we are a mangled mangy group, lol). But she is a tough girl. She is doing this because *she* doesnt want to be in school. She has weathered alot of teasing from her bro's over the past 3 years...this year they are finally getting that she means it. :o)

She knows she is testing each year...and pulls out her "school stuff" once in awhile. She likes math and grammar alot...matter of fact stuff I guess...logic...she has done the whole "curric" with those subjects on her own, following the books, asking me for help once in a while. But she doesnt memorise stuff like they do in italy. ANd I dont intend on recommending it. I find it difficult to "betray" what I believe in. I dont know how to explain it.

you talk alot about buying the yaht alot, that both partners need to agree here, dh is okay, alittle scared but agrees but how about 2 out of 7 kids?...I have to let go of the yaht because two of my kids dont like it? because they cant bring their friends on it too?

I feel like that sort of sucks, lol. I wonder what others think here?


<<<If the country you're in doesn't allow for homeschooling, and if you can't leave, then don't homeschool. <<<

Italy allows for homeschooling (they call it in the constitution "paternal schooling" ).


<<<<There are ways to make school easier and more fun for your kids if that's an easier and less stressful option than trying to homeschool where there's no support at all.<<<<

Thats nice of you to say that, and we did do this when we thought we could not homeschool, and still do with those that choose to attend school: we have been a very free home around schooly stuff, really!. But now we know we can (because basically, our dd forced us to find out).

but I wonder what all you "oldtime" homeschooler dealed with these sort of situations way back when homeschooling was unheard of?
I feel like this is sort of a cop out, renouncing on our desire to unschool, just because no one in italy does it. It is on the move, homeschooling and unschooling is growing exponentially. Id like to help out a bit so my children can feel free to unschool their kids if they like. I dont mind sweating it out a bit, but I do want to protect my dd. Ive let go of "totally pure" but Im not going to let go of the principles involved.

Ive gotta run now, and Ive noticed that others have written. Ill drop back in this evening (italian time, that is)
xxmelissa
in italy
mamma di 7

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], "Melissa Dietrick" wrpte:

<< I am worrying. The
italian unschooler types (we are a mangled mangy group, lol)<<

I didnt finish that sentence....the italian group Im talking with online thing that I should just act as if the exams didnt exist. let my dd take them, irregardless of whether she is familiar with the terminology used etc. I feel that is very unfair to the child. Never exposing him to at least some of the concepts hes going to come across. It doesnt have to be "taught" but strewing it out there, no?

Ive really gotta go now...but I wanted to correct that unfinished sentence-
meliisa

Sandra Dodd

-=- here in italy, the dept of education decides the nationwide
curriculum, from elementary thru university. -=-

Is that set of expectations available to you? If you know what the
nationwide curriculum is for third grade, and if the test isn't an
option, I don't understand the problem.

-=But I do have to submit for testing, as would any private school
that doesnt adopt the p.s. curriculum (such as waldorf/stienerschools
for ex.).-=-

Can you test her in with the waldorf or some other private school,
rather than all by herself?

-=-yes we do this...but for ex. science this year is dinosaurs and big
bang (in proper order tho)...but shanti is rather tired of that--her
big bro was super into this for years and she tagged along for the
ride :o). This year they are totally into other stuff, that is not on
the curriculum at all. -=-

If it's NOT a standardized test, why can't you tell them what she's
been doing and interested in and maybe they CAN lean more toward
that. I really figured if there was national curriculum that there
would be tests to go with it.


-=-<<<<or you can knowingly ignore that detail (which
> I've also done in several ways),<<<<

Im not sure what you mean by ignoring that detail?-=-

Not show up, or take the tests in such a way that the scores
themselves are invalidated, so whether she tests high or low you don't
take it to heart (nor allow the relatives to do so, if they know there
was a purposeful invalidation.
http://sandradodd.com/testing/tests

That might not work, though, without a standardized, computer-scored
test.

-=-the italian group Im talking with online thing that I should just
act as if the exams didnt exist. let my dd take them, irregardless of
whether she is familiar with the terminology used etc. I feel that is
very unfair to the child. Never exposing him to at least some of the
concepts hes going to come across. It doesnt have to be "taught" but
strewing it out there, no?
-=-

Maybe you could say "They might ask you about dinosaurs. I don't care
if you know about them or not, but they might ask because that's what
the school kids learn about at your age." But if you coach and tutor
her, she might feel she didn't learn enough. Or you might coach her
and she'll do great! Kinda depends on her personality and your
intentions and that, but I think it's impossible for a parent of a
child who tool a legit test in a legitimate way NOT to be affected by
the results. I don't think you will treat her the same way
afterwards, whether the score is low, medium or high, and that's a
shame. But that's how people are.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/10/2009 10:42 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> Not show up, or take the tests in such a way that the scores
> themselves are invalidated, so whether she tests high or low you don't
> take it to heart (nor allow the relatives to do so, if they know there
> was a purposeful invalidation.
> http://sandradodd.com/testing/tests
>
> That might not work, though, without a standardized, computer-scored
> test.
>

Her daughter sits in a room with three teachers and they ask her
questions, supposedly about the material for her grade level in the
national curriculum. Ideally, her daughter gets started talking about
what she DOES know about and they listen and determine that she's
learning pretty much at what they consider her grade level. I think you
already did this before, Melissa, right? And it went well and the
teachers were actually quite impressed with her vocabulary and thinking
ability? I think the deal is that Melissa has no way to know what these
three teachers might decide to ask. So as Shanti is getting older,
Melissa is afraid the questions will be more about specific subjects -
"What was the biggest dinosaur or what did the T-Rex eat?" types of
questions, about things Shanti has had no interest in and knows little
about.

Melissa - I just want to say - I think you need to trust Shanti a little
more. Talk to HER about what the deal is - how you feel about it - and
ask her about how she's feeling. At least from what you've told us,
you're doing a lot of fear-based guessing that she'll take the
experience in and begin to think badly of herself. But, from other
things you've said, she doesn't really sound like the kind of girl who
will meekly absorb negative ideas about herself.

Arm her in advance by helping her understand why you don't "do school"
and why they think it is important, but you don't, that she cover the
exact same information as every other kid in the country, at the same time.

Also, what they're likely to do, even if they are very unhappy with her
progress, is to tell you to teach her more. So - agree to that and do a
little more subject preparation for the next test, if that seems necessary.

Melissa - get a grip <G>. I think you're getting yourself worked up over
what you imagine might be terrible harm to Shanti's self-esteem if they
ask her a bunch of stuff she doesn't know. Kids in school have parents
who are taking the testing extremely seriously. I sit on the soccer
sidelines with lots of other parents who are constantly talking about
school. They think it is their duty to instill in their kids the extreme
importance of the tests. You're not doing that - you're doing the
opposite. You're giving your child real honest information about the
reasons for the tests and what you think about them.

Do they actually even give her a pass or not-pass grade? Or do they talk
to you, afterward, about the results. You can tell her how impressed
they were with her, etc., because I'm sure they will be impressed with
some things, even if they are totally appalled that she doesn't remember
much about dinosaurs. You can just say, "Yeah, weird how they think all
8 year olds ought to know about dinosaurs. It is like if we said ALL 8
year olds should know a lot about _____________________ fill in the
blank with something SHE knows a lot about.



-pam

Jenny C

I think the deal is that Melissa has no way to know what these
> three teachers might decide to ask. So as Shanti is getting older,
> Melissa is afraid the questions will be more about specific subjects -
> "What was the biggest dinosaur or what did the T-Rex eat?" types of
> questions, about things Shanti has had no interest in and knows little
> about.


Ah, well, perhaps coaching Melissa on how to answer questions that she
doesn't know the answer to would be a good idea.

"I'm not sure what the answer to that is, but I will be looking that
up."

"Do you mean ________, if you do, I think the answer is__________"

"Can you give me an example?"

"I think, based on my best guess, that the answer is ____________, but I
could be wrong."

Answers that let the over seers know that she is thinking about the
answers and the questions and thoughtfully considering them.

Kim Zerbe

<< I don't think you will treat her the same way afterwards, whether the
score is low, medium or high, and that's a shame. But that's how people are.
>>

When I was 9 (in 4th grade) we took an IQ test and my parents would not let
me see the results. All of my friends knew their scores, but I didn't. I was
so mad that I wasn't allowed to know! I was sure my best friend scored
higher than me (she always did), so at the time I just wanted to know how
close I got to her score!

Years later I found the IQ test results in a folder my mom kept of all of my
achievements and I asked her about why they wouldn't let me know the score.
Turned out that they didn't want me to brag or have a big head about my
score because it was (what they considered) high. I don't remember it now
but I don't really think it was even all that high, not genius level or
anything. Surely they already knew I was "smart" by age 9? So a high score
should not have been a surprise. I"ve always wondered what that was about.

At the time though, I thought it was because I hadn't scored well enough and
they were disappointed. I thought they were protecting me from my failure.
From then on I had an internal voice telling me I was not good at test
taking. Therefore I became not good at test taking. If I did well, I figured
the test must have been easy if even *I* could score well on it! If I scored
poorly, I wasn't surprised, since I was not good at taking tests. (I think I
still knew I was smart, but somehow was OK that no test could accurately
prove it.)

I was a wreck by the time I had to take the SATs! Top that off by having to
take it in a strange town (where my cousin was getting married) at a strange
school far from home. I didn't know my way around or know anyone there and
was so completely nervous about that, plus the actual test, plus the
wedding, plus the knowledge that all of my friends were standing around
together before taking their tests at our school. The whole thing was
incredibly cruel.

So I scored over 1000, but nothing impressive. I thought I should have done
better and blamed it on the extenuating circumstances. Plus the known fact
that I am just not a good test taker. ;p

Kim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Dietrick

> -=- here in italy, the dept of education decides the nationwide
> curriculum, from elementary thru university. -=-

><<<<< Is that set of expectations available to you? If you know what the nationwide curriculum is for third grade, and if the test isn't an option, I don't understand the problem.<<<<<<<<<

Im sorry sandra, I dont understand what you mean by "and if the test isnt an option?" do you mean not optional?

I will answer "as if" thats what you mean...
well, I do know the curriculum expected of the PS, it is clearly written in the school books we have to buy each year. Ive sent 4 kids thru and have also seen it in actionlol! I have gotten the school books the local school choose to use yearly, so if she chooses there are fresh worksheets available for her, but mostly she likes to read the older ones that are in huge abundance (she tends to like to read the upper levels).

The year she started homeschooling was the year they changed the "rules"- it used to be required to test only upon re entry of the public school system. However I am thinking there are more and more people exercising this constitutional right to homeschool so the govt. decided to make sure the immigrants are not isolating their children (a big issue here in italy)...this is the general opinion.

what I see as a problem is this "having" to take an exam.
Clearly, if one could get around it, it would be better for my dd, and the family atmosphere. I am still looking for ways to avoid it, or at least mitigate the negative effects of testing. I am philosophically questioning the possibilities of unschooling in such an atmosphere. There is alot of discussion about doing "pure" unschooling (conceived by many as nothing schoolish, ever) and letting the test come as will. again, these discussions are with in our meager online groups, lol, and elsewhere in real life--not w/me tho, I dont know anybody else who thinks IRL about unschooling principles.

I worry because a 9 year old is not stupid, obviously. Having people question you, doing an exam, having to write some sort of composition...she can feel whether things are going "well" or not. by whether things feel easy, by the vibes being sent out. Of course it could be easy for her, just as she might be feeling nervouse or with a stuffy head or just confused by the questions asked. I did notice last year that the vice principal (who was present as one of the 3 teachers) was very generous in prompting her along. It was a very human process. I am just worried this humanity may give way to "she old enough" or some such mentality.

But doing things more schoolishly than what we are, I just cannot muster: it would be putting my relationship with dd in jeapardy, and more even, it would be putting my own convictions in the garbage can.
It isnt an easy thing to work out alone. I need some feed back from experienced people like you and others here.

thats my problem, I guess. Does it seem like a valid issue to you?

also jsut to throw this out there, It seems alot of would be unschoolers decide not to even homeschool because of this testing.

>
> -=But I do have to submit for testing, as would any private school
> that doesnt adopt the p.s. curriculum (such as waldorf/stienerschools
> for ex.).-=-
>
> Can you test her in with the waldorf or some other private school,
> rather than all by herself?

This is an interesting idea. I dont know: the "regulations" (which many here are quick to point out are not laws in the slightest, nor legislations so in theory could be refused) state that the exam must take place at the public school where registered. Registering, whether homeschooling or not, is required by law. I state I am homeschooling rather that publicschooling.

I know if I want to test with another school I would have to transfer to that school, declare the homeschooling afterwards...I looked into this option this year, but the principal that I liked so much is retiring and then we would be back to the drawing board. I was feeling very optimistic back in Feb...so I left us where we were. Im not so worried about this year. Im worried about the future years as testing gets more and more difficult, always being based on what is the national exam for 8th graders, watered down for the grade at hand.

Im worried about all these unschoolers that have to put their kids to test...I want to really see if there are other ways out of this...and if these options are possible within our particular situation. Dh doesnt want any legal hassles, hes got too much on his plate right now, I guess.

> <<<If it's NOT a standardized test, why can't you tell them what she's been doing and interested in and maybe they CAN lean more toward that. I really figured if there was national curriculum that there would be tests to go with it.<<<<

Well, this is what I am wondering. Really, if they had contacted me this year as they did last year (very officially, in april with formal letters that I must send, with programs etc) I would have done so. But this year they seem to have forgotten me altogether...I have been really busy with family and issues (the same stuff dh has on his plate, lol) and let it slide. Also, this principal is not so easy for me to communicate with. he is very kind, polite, but not very open minded. He's scared, basically. I probably will go school shopping this comming year. Unless he retires... Its hard, because the principals sort of go hopping from school to school, often.


> Im not sure what you mean by ignoring that detail?-=-
>
<<<<< Not show up, or take the tests in such a way that the scores themselves are invalidated, so whether she tests high or low you don't take it to heart (nor allow the relatives to do so, if they know there was a purposeful invalidation.
http://sandradodd.com/testing/tests
That might not work, though, without a standardized, computer-scored test.<<<<<<<<<

thanks for clarifying that. Yes, it would be nice to not know the results. BUt I worry about my own capacity at conveying this non importance to my two teaser boys. suggestions here?

><<< Maybe you could say "They might ask you about dinosaurs. I don't care if you know about them or not, but they might ask because that's what the school kids learn about at your age." But if you coach and tutor her, she might feel she didn't learn enough. <<<<<

Yes, this is my worry. She says looking at the books, "I know this stuff already," or, "Im not interested in it." And mostly what she is not interested in is stuff she has explored in more interesting ways before. I do trust her. I dont trust the effects of the system.
And I am wondering if the one test, and its possible negatie effects are a fair trade for unschooling well the rest of the year.
What do you all think? Sandra? Pam? She doesnt want to be in school. No doubts about that.


Or you might coach her
> and she'll do great! Kinda depends on her personality and your
> intentions and that, but I think it's impossible for a parent of a
> child who tool a legit test in a legitimate way NOT to be affected by
> the results. I don't think you will treat her the same way
> afterwards, whether the score is low, medium or high, and that's a
> shame. But that's how people are.


What do you think if this test is a "pass into the next grade" or "remains in the present grade"? Does that make a difference? There are no results except that decision. The test is to decide if she is ready for the next grade.

which now is getting me to wonder whether your idea to "hold her back a year" would work in this case? I would maybe get to skip this year or the next and she could take any "easier" test... I dont know about this principal...but I could ask.

I really need some articles on the negative effects of testing tho, to sort of back me up. Ive been sounding him out all year (and last year) for ways to avoid the tests. He is adamant that they must happen though this is disputable as it is "only" a regulation, not a law . I am pretty sure he thinks I am an overprotective mother, who doesnt want to test her child to protect her. Lol, which is true, but I see this as positive, he maybe seeing this in a negative way.

okay, Im going to go and read the other posts...
thanks again.
melissa in italy
mammadi7

Sandra Dodd

-=-He is adamant that they must happen though this is disputable as it
is "only" a regulation, not a law -=-

Maybe the law says you must comply with regulations.

As to the effect the grade will have on her treatment by her brothers,
that seems far beyond the scope of this list. If you can't persuade
them to respect what you're doing and be kind, that might be one more
effect of school on them to keep in mind when others ask you about
giving children choices about school. Maybe you should tell them
they can continue to go to school only IF they stop bringing the
bullying behavior home or something.


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

Sometimes the only thing you can change is your perspective, your own
attitude. If the test is the cost of being home together and being together
is a valued opportunity, then decide the test is a worthy price to pay. (I
have strong feelings about *paying* any price to raise my own kid, too,
though I'd put them aside, should the need arise - it's obviously arisen in
your life!)

I'd be sure to be honest with my child; explaining this is the hoop we jump
through to have this amazing free life, 99% of the time. 99% is waaaay
better than anything less! I'd toss it about while we were into a project,
(our upcoming treehouse is in the forefront of my mind, so I'll use it as an
example) "Should they ask you about angles on the test, you can mention how
we figured out this floor" or "designing this dumb waiter includes lots of
specific engineering, it might be good to talk about for the test, when
they're talking about science" For Hayden, especially, I'd mention that his
budgeting for his Independence Day fireworks might be worth mentioning
during the math or economics portions... etc, etc... I think it's fair to
both be nonchalant about the test & give enough information for the child to
feel confident in the process. If you find value, you can at least share
that view with them!

Maybe you can share the world book information with them:
http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?curriculum
Perhaps someone in the system may know where the same information is
available for Italy? At least this is an example of your request for "what
to expect" from the testing.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> So as Shanti is getting older, Melissa is afraid the questions will be
> more about specific subjects - "What was the biggest dinosaur or what did
> the T-Rex eat?" types of questions, about things Shanti has had no interest
> in and knows little about.
>
> Melissa - I just want to say - I think you need to trust Shanti a little
> more. Talk to HER about what the deal is - how you feel about it - and ask
> her about how she's feeling. At least from what you've told us, you're doing
> a lot of fear-based guessing that she'll take the experience in and begin to
> think badly of herself. But, from other things you've said, she doesn't
> really sound like the kind of girl who will meekly absorb negative ideas
> about herself.
>
> Arm her in advance by helping her understand why you don't "do school" and
> why they think it is important, but you don't, that she cover the exact same
> information as every other kid in the country, at the same time.
>
> Also, what they're likely to do, even if they are very unhappy with her
> progress, is to tell you to teach her more. So - agree to that and do a
> little more subject preparation for the next test, if that seems necessary.
>
> Melissa - get a grip <G>. I think you're getting yourself worked up over
> what you imagine might be terrible harm to Shanti's self-esteem if they ask
> her a bunch of stuff she doesn't know. Kids in school have parents who are
> taking the testing extremely seriously. I sit on the soccer sidelines with
> lots of other parents who are constantly talking about school. They think it
> is their duty to instill in their kids the extreme importance of the tests.
> You're not doing that - you're doing the
> opposite. You're giving your child real honest information about the
> reasons for the tests and what you think about them.
>
> Do they actually even give her a pass or not-pass grade? Or do they talk to
> you, afterward, about the results. You can tell her how impressed they were
> with her, etc., because I'm sure they will be impressed with some things,
> even if they are totally appalled that she doesn't remember much about
> dinosaurs. You can just say, "Yeah, weird how they think all 8 year olds
> ought to know about dinosaurs. It is like if we said ALL 8 year olds should
> know a lot about ____________________ fill in the blank with something SHE
> knows a lot about.
>



That whole thing was worth another read-through!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

space_and_freedom

> Im not so worried about this year. Im worried about the future years > as testing gets more and more difficult.

I'd try really hard not to worry about future tests (other than school shopping for a more sympathetic principal like you mentioned). Your daughter will be older with each subsequent test, and so likely to better handle the challenge.

> I dont trust the effects of the system.
> And I am wondering if the one test, and its possible negative
> effects are a fair trade for unschooling well the rest of the year.
> What do you all think? Sandra? Pam? She doesnt want to be in
> school. No doubts about that.

Since your daughter doesn't want to be in school it seems to me that the negative effects of school would far outweigh the negative effects of one yearly test.

In school she would be tested in many different ways throughout the year. Of course one test a year would be less harmful than that.

> What do you think if this test is a "pass into the next grade" or
> "remains in the present grade"? Does that make a difference? There
> are no results except that decision. The test is to decide if she
> is ready for the next grade.

Can you get to a place where it truly doesn't matter to you if she doesn't pass? Maybe you can convey to her that this is a necessary hoop to let her be home, so she has to get tested, but it's no big deal to you how it turns out.

Also, can you get your husband to get your two sons to knock off the meanness to your daughter? Maybe since they are so immersed in schoolish things they would respond better to a stern authority (aka their Dad).

Good luck,

Jen H.

http://crazychicknlady.livejournal.com/

Robyn L. Coburn

>> -=- here in italy, the dept of education decides the nationwide
>> curriculum, from elementary thru university. -=->>>>

What are the real legally enforcable consequences for not testing?

What are the real legally enforcable consequences if a child fails the
tests?

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com