kelly_sturman

A couple of my kids love MMORPGs and will play them
for 12-14 hours per day. But one of them doesn't
read yet and the other one just told us yesterday that she
has been breaking some of the sites' rules, so they both
need to be supervised while playing.

BUT, much as I enjoy the MMORPGs, I am not happy
playing them for 12-14 hours a day. I am an
outdoorsy person, and an active person. I get
physically uncomfortable and then grouchy sitting
in front of a computer for so many hours at a time.
I miss sensory input: wind on my face, the smell
of the earth warming in the sun and the flowers
blooming in the garden, the sound of the waterfall
rushing and the birds singing, the feel of moving
my muscles as I work...

I am trying to think of a way to afford to hire
somebody to watch over the kids while the play
for some of those hours, but don't know if I can
swing it, financially.

I am trying to think of other solutions and coming up
blank. I would say, "If you break the sites' rules,
then you can only play when I am willing to play,
too..." but then I know they will sneak on to the
computer as soon as I go out to the garden.

I am not saying that as a dire "if I let them..."
statement. I am saying that they will use the
computer without supervision b/c we are still
deschooling, and I remember when we were
limiting screen time, or trying too, anyway...
and the kids snuck onto the computers then.
(Of course; it was forbidden fruit. Or, carefully
rationed fruit.) So, past history tells me, they
will sneak onto the computer if they want to
use it. Also, they flat-out tell me that they
will use the computers whenever they want
to.

Do I tell them that when I go for a walk or out
into the garden, they have to come with me,
so that I can keep an eye on them? That sounds
bossy and punitive, so I don't like that option.

Getting outdoors and working my muscles is
important to my health, physical and mental.
Sitting in front of a computer for more than
a few hours at a time is physically painful--I
just am not comfortable being "stuck" in one
place--and I get bored of it. I know there
is a lot going on in the games, but I simply
am not as "into" them as my kids are.

I also have three other kids who want/need
my time and attention, which is another reason
I can't just play online games for the bulk of
my waking hours. Well, I can, if I choose to
ignore the three other kids.

I don't want to remove the computers from
the home, as we have five family members
who use them responsibly and two others
who enjoy them very much, just need
supervision. Besides, removing the computers
wouldn't remove the real issue, which is one
of learning to make good choices vs. choosing
to make poor choices.

Help?

Kelly Sturman

[email protected]

On May 18, 2009, at 3:13 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:

>>>> I know there
is a lot going on in the games, but I simply
am not as "into" them as my kids are. <<<<

It doesn't matter. If you were to hire someone to be a watchdog in the
online activities, that's not --to my of thinking-- what you really
want, is it? If you were to hire someone, would they care to be there
(even though they're being paid) for 12 -14 hours per day? I'm having
trouble envisioning that as anything approaching realistic.

How long could you stand to sit and get more "into" what you're kids
are doing?

Have you considered that online misbehavior (not sure what that might
be) is a cry for attention?

>>>> I also have three other kids who want/need
my time and attention, which is another reason
I can't just play online games for the bulk of
my waking hours. Well, I can, if I choose to
ignore the three other kids. <<<<

No one can be there 100% of the time with each child, even paid folks.
All the better reason to value what all your children are doing and to
care for the --to them-- exciting online activities they enjoy and how
that relates to other things in life that you can follow up on. There
are all kinds of connections to be had from playing MMORGs and other
online gaming. If you're unschooling, then that's a very important
part of what you'd want to do with online games... help your children
explore the connections! It's fun (1st of all) ... more fun than it
looks like from where you are at the moment, increases the connection
between yourself and all your kids (2nd), and creates ways that you can
interact with the kids both online and off (3rd). I'm sure there are
plenty of other benefits too (http://sandradodd.com/videogames/). And
you won't see those if you're not "into" it.

You have 5 or 6 kids, right, at least some of whom are adopted? I'm a
bit confused about that. Number one under Pam Sorooshian's "What
Unschooling Parents DO": Respect all of a child's interests equally. I
would also go so far as to say: Respect all of your children's
interests equally.

Those two ideas are connected to number 10: Be very observant of what
your child is really doing - don't view him/her in a shallow
superficial way. Recognize that there is a reason for a child's
actions, that a child is 'born to learn' and is always learning. Get
to know your child's special favored ways of learning.

~Katherine

Robin Bentley

On May 18, 2009, at 12:13 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:

> A couple of my kids love MMORPGs and will play them
> for 12-14 hours per day. But one of them doesn't
> read yet and the other one just told us yesterday that she
> has been breaking some of the sites' rules, so they both
> need to be supervised while playing.
>
Is their supervision a requirement from the game master? Was the rule-
breaking inadvertent?

I ask because there may be different ways to approach your question
re: the game playing.

Robin B.

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< the other one just told us yesterday that she
> has been breaking some of the sites' rules,>>>>

What does this mean, and does it really matter? How would the site
administrators know that you were watching her? What is so onerous that she
doesn't want to keep the rule to allow her to continue playing happily? If
she persists in doing something wrong, she will be reprimanded by the game
site or suspended. Explain the consequences without becoming a cop on behalf
of a game administrator. That's like forcing a kid to follow the school
rules at home (most parents do that willingly - we unschoolers don't have
to!)

A lot of kids' sites have the "rule" that the child should ask permission
before logging on. I don't insist Jayn keep that rule.
For other sites I have registered under my name and age to avoid a lot of
the boring back and forth permission emailing.

Can one of your reading kids help their non-reading sister with any reading?
Must it be you all the time?

Do you have to sit still beside her to help with reading? Jayn used to just
ask me to come over and read a screen periodically. Later she would spell
the word for me to translate for her. Now she pretty much reads it all on
her own, and only asks rarely.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

kelly_sturman

> How long could you stand to sit and get more "into" what you're kids
> are doing?

I play for two to four hours a day. I have my own character
I enjoy playing. I enjoy spending that time with the kids, and
I don't look down on gaming. I am looking forward to learning
new online games. I'm just not as focused as these two are.
There are other things I want to be doing for and with my other
kids, and for myself, and for and with my spouse.

> Have you considered that online misbehavior (not sure
what that might be) is a cry for attention?

No. I hadn't. I will think about that.

In the past, we had more rules around here, mainly of
the, "if you took it out, put it back away" variety.
She consistently ignored those rules. Reading
about chores helped me to understand that.

And when we were eclectic homeschoolers, I would
sometimes ask the kids to do a few workbook pages
now and again, basically to satisfy state regulations.
This child is the one who led us down the path to
unschooling when she refused to do any work out
of the workbooks, and asked, "Why should I do this?"
And I had to think about that, and realize that she
had a good point there.

She and I have talked about rules, about how she feels
about them. And in a nutshell, she has told me that
if there is a rule, she is going to break it. I asked her
why and she said, "Simple. I don't like being told what
to do." She wants it to be perfectly clear that nobody can
make her do anything she doesn't want to do. She's right,
of course, and that attitude could take her far, or land her
in a lot of trouble. There is an upside and a downside to it.

On the other hand, she likes when rules protect her.
We still have a rule around here: "If you want to use it,
and it belongs to somebody else, ask the owner for
permission before using it." She will not follow this rule,
but she will also become angry when siblings go into her
room without permission and use her books/toys/space
without her permission.

I have been thinking a lot about rules vs. principles
and reading and re-reading about that. We want
our family members to treat one another kindly and
with respect. And taking things without asking (and
then maybe losing or breaking them) is not very kind
or respectful.

As to what the online misbehavior was:
1) She shared an account with another player, which
is explicitly against the site's rules.
2) She often responds to solicitations ("Will you be my
girlfriend?" requests) in the affirmative.
She says she won't share personal information. I
hope she is being honest with me about that.

>help your children explore the connections!

I believe I am doing that.

> It's fun (1st of all) ... more fun than it looks like
> from where you are at the moment

I agree it is fun. It's not fun for me for 14 hours
everyday, though.

> increases the connection between yourself and
> all your kids (2nd), and creates ways that you can
> interact with the kids both online and off (3rd).

Yes, I agree completely. I have experienced all of
this, and it is all great. But the 14 hours a day is
not great for me.

> I'm sure there are plenty of other benefits too
> (http://sandradodd.com/videogames/). And
> you won't see those if you're not "into" it.

I like that page. So much good material to use
when speaking to critical relatives about the kids
gaming. I was really surprised when I started playing,
how challenging the games were. It's not that I
don't like the games. It's that I don't like playing
online games all day, every day.

> You have 5 or 6 kids, right, at least some of whom
> are adopted?

Right, I have two biological children and three
adoptive children.

> Respect all of your children's interests equally.

I want to do that. I think I am doing that. But I can't
be simultaneously hiking in the woods with the kids
who want to do that and playing online games with the
kids who want to do that. I'm not saying, "Ugh. I am
sick of playing these stupid games." I am saying,
"Well, this has been fun, but I'm feeling fidgety and
I really feel like going outside and stretching my legs
now."

> Be very observant of what your child is really doing -
> don't view him/her in a shallow superficial way. Recognize
> that there is a reason for a child's actions, that a child is 'born
> to learn' and is always learning. Get to know your child's special
> favored ways of learning.

I'm trying to absorb your help; I really am. I'm not understanding
how the paragraph directly above applies, unless I accidentally
conveyed the idea that I don't like playing online games and that I
don't value the gaming. If I conveyed that idea, I apologize. I do
enjoy the gaming and I am happy that the kids have found something
about which they are passionate. I just don't enjoy gaming exclusively.
I have a variety of interests and, yes, other kids with other interests,
and I am trying to figure out how to balance out of that.

Or am I missing the point? Not being defensive here; really
trying to understand and make use of the advice.

Thanks,

Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-. Also, they flat-out tell me that they
will use the computers whenever they want
to.-=-

I don't understand this. For my kids to ever say something like that
to me, things would have to be going very badly. They've never said
anything like that.

-=-That sounds
bossy and punitive, so I don't like that option.-=-

It sounds like your kids are being bossy. Were you bossy before and
are they treating you as you used to treat them, maybe?

-=-Do I tell them that when I go for a walk or out
into the garden, they have to come with me,
so that I can keep an eye on them? -=-

Unless they're able to be in the house unsupervised, I don't see how
you get to go for a walk or out into the garden anyway.

Maybe you could trade something for a kid to some and play with your
kids sometimes.

What happens if they break the rules of the site? If the account
would be turned off, tell them so. If the account gets shut down,
that wasn't your doing.

There are thousands of things in the world to do besides playing a
game a kid can't read.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>>> A couple of my kids love MMORPGs and will play them
for 12-14 hours per day. But one of them doesn't
read yet and the other one just told us yesterday that she
has been breaking some of the sites' rules, so they both
need to be supervised while playing. <<<<

A couple of other tweaks and then an idea for some things you could do
that are more active while hanging out with your kids who are online.
We have computers and a wirelessly connected laptop that's newer which
we use mostly for watching Netflix and other movies and tv stuff. The
desktops are situated side by side, one to a table/desk area. This is
so anybody can hang out in here while one or more of us are online and
talk, play other games or puppets or swords and other things which are
really similar in intent to mmorpg's by the way.

One tweak is to find out what the child is looking for who is breaking
online rules. Have you inquired by observation to see what the deal is
and looked into other ways to get what s/he wants. Maybe join
Unschooling Gamers
(http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooling_gamers/) to get ideas
and talk more about that issue more specifically.

Another tweak is not to see it as supervision, which is very
hierarchical, and not conducive to building partnership with children.
Approach these issues about online use as a new way to connect with
your child/ren. How can you help with reading if you or someone who
can read isn't present to help very much.

Being outside and getting what *you* need is great! Do you have
laptops or Nintendo DS's or some way to make it more comfortable
(lounge chairs, hammocks etc) for your children to simultaneously hang
out doing what they love to do and be with you, a person they need in
their lives as much as possible? Brian just got me a used phone from
eBay that wifi's for $80 (Samsung). It has a little keyboard that pops
out, and on that I can download games and play! And check email and
browse somewhat as well, although I like the desktop much better for
email stuff.

For yourself, do you like to knit or cook or sew (things you could
indoors do while hanging out with your kids) or do you have a potting
shed that's comfortable for some kids to hang out in with you. Since
you're outside a lot, is there a tarp/tent/gazebo like area for all of
you to hang out together wifi'ing, playing with games/toys, and
gardening/potting plants, starting seeds, etc.

Find ways to make your activities and your kid's activities intersect
more.

~Katherine

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< the other one just told us yesterday that she
> > has been breaking some of the sites' rules,>>>>
>
> What does this mean, and does it really matter?

Maybe I am just reacting out of fear, but it feels like
a hop, skip, and a jump from telling total strangers,
"Yes, I will be your girlfriend..." to inappropriate
conversations with people who may not be who
they are representing themselves to be, to potentially
having a creep show up at our home if our daughter
decides to ignore the rule against sharing personal
information.

> How would the site administrators know that you
> were watching her?

They wouldn't. But I will know the content of the
conversations she is having.

> A lot of kids' sites have the "rule" that the child should ask
> permission before logging on. I don't insist Jayn keep that rule.
> For other sites I have registered under my name and age to avoid
> a lot of the boring back and forth permission emailing.

Same here on both accounts.

> Can one of your reading kids help their non-reading sister with
> any reading? Must it be you all the time?

The other kids do help my non-reading son sometimes. It doesn't
always have to be me and it isn't always me.

> Do you have to sit still beside her to help with reading?

No, but I have to be in the same room. This son has downloaded
viruses accidentally b/c he can't read and he doesn't know what
he's clicking on. I can't figure out how to set the security settings
high enough to avoid that but low enough to allow the game
content through.

So, in sum, with my daughter, I am worried she is going to get
into a cyber-stalker type of relationship, because if she is willing
to break rules, why wouldn't she break the rule against sharing
personal information? With my son, we've already had one
computer destroyed by a virus and don't want to go there again.
For myself, I don't want to spend 14 hours a day online. Four
is about my limit.

Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe I am just reacting out of fear, but it feels like
a hop, skip, and a jump from telling total strangers,
"Yes, I will be your girlfriend..." to inappropriate
conversations with people who may not be who
they are representing themselves to be, to potentially
having a creep show up at our home if our daughter
decides to ignore the rule against sharing personal
information. -=-

I thought you meant she was cheating at the game.

Please be clear about what you're thinking when you write. When you
want help from the list, be honest with what's going on.


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kelly_sturman

> I don't understand this. For my kids to ever say something like that
> to me, things would have to be going very badly. They've never said
> anything like that.

That's because you did the thinking first and then had children.
I've done it the other way around. I've done some things well
as a mom and I've made some big mistakes, but all I can do
now is make better choices now and in the future. Also, you
had your kids from birth, whereas the ones who speak to
me in this way came to me at older ages (one was four,
one was eight, one was a teen) and out of bad situation.

> It sounds like your kids are being bossy. Were you bossy
> before and are they treating you as you used to treat them,
> maybe?

Absolutely that's true. I know that. And the people who
took care of them--if you could call it that--before they
came into my life were downright cruel. So,okay, given
all that, what do I do now?

> Unless they're able to be in the house unsupervised, I don't
> see how you get to go for a walk or out into the garden anyway.

I thought they were able to be in the house unsupervised. Now
I'm not so sure.

> There are thousands of things in the world to do besides playing a
> game a kid can't read.

But they really want to play *this*. They aren't interested right now
in the thousands of other things. And I don't want to push the
thousands of other things too hard, because I don't want to give
them the impression that the other things are more worthwhile
than the gaming.

Also, the non-reader can do many things in the game that don't
require reading. The icing on the cake is that he may be beginning
to learn some sight words incidental to the play, and he's told me that
he's not sad that he can't read, so it's really neat if he can pick up some
words as he's playing.

Kelly
who seems to keep coming back to a problem with balance

kelly_sturman

> Please be clear about what you're thinking when you write. When you
> want help from the list, be honest with what's going on.

Okay. I'm sorry. I wasn't more specific at first because I
thought being more specific would amount to publicly shaming
my daughter, and I thought maybe I could get help without going
into the specifics.

Kelly

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> and are they treating you as you used to treat them, maybe?

With chores, when I stopped asking them to pick up after
themselves, I told them, "I made a mistake before. Telling
you that you had to do this was a mistake. I'm sorry."

And my daughter, the same one who has the issue with
rules, said, "Are you picking up after us now to show
us that you are sorry?"

And I said, "Yes, and to show you that I love you,
and that people can learn to make better choices."

And so now, with this, I used to be pretty anti-gaming.
Then I read a lot, and started playing, and having a lot of
fun playing these games with the kids. And it's been
really great for the whole family dynamic. And I really
would like for them to play as frequently and for
as long as they want to.

But now I have what looks to me to be a safety issue.
And I don't want to go back to the old bossy way
of parenting, but an if/then doesn't work if I can't
enforce it.

Kelly

Jenny C

> A couple of my kids love MMORPGs and will play them
> for 12-14 hours per day. But one of them doesn't
> read yet and the other one just told us yesterday that she
> has been breaking some of the sites' rules, so they both
> need to be supervised while playing.


Just because they are breaking some of the site rules, doesn't mean they
need to be supervised. It depends on what they are doing and how bad it
is. Can't you ask them to stop breaking the rules so that they can keep
their accounts. I've seen people get booted from MMORPG's for breaking
site rules. If you do it enough and what it is, they won't let you
back, depending on the site, my experience is with ToonTown.

You, the mom, need to be playing with them and helping them navigate the
rules, then once they "get" it, play for fun and then go about your day
doing what you need to do and popping in here and there to see how they
are doing.

Since computers and gaming has been regulated, it will take a while
before they get filled up on it. They will though, and one day, they
won't play as much or in exclusion to all other things. So, while they
are in the filling up mode, be sweet and kind about it, don't make them
feel bad for not wanting to do other things. Be excited about what they
ARE doing!

Jenny C

> So, in sum, with my daughter, I am worried she is going to get
> into a cyber-stalker type of relationship, because if she is willing
> to break rules, why wouldn't she break the rule against sharing
> personal information? With my son, we've already had one
> computer destroyed by a virus and don't want to go there again.


Get better virus protection, put admin access only on his computer, or
his profile so that he can't download anything without the admin code.
It's a bit of a hassle, but it's totally worth it. We did this with
Chamille's computer because she kept getting viruses. She has the code
when she needs it, but now, at least she isn't downloading things on
accident, and she's a VERY capable user, she just uses sites sometimes
that are suspect.

As far as your daughter goes... Do you think your daughter is looking
for an online relationship? Has she given out addresses or phone
numbers? Can she tell if she's playing with another kid? We've met
loads of people from online. Chamille just spent the day on Saturday
with someone she met on myspace, a random add that ended up living very
nearby. Chamille's been using online chat rooms and myspace and other
public forums since about the age of 10. She's quite savvy about
knowing wether a person is on the up and up. She's only had to block a
few people here and there and all of them were people her own age, who
for whatever reason, were doing mean cyber stalking.

If a kid is willing to break rules, it doesn't mean they are going to
share personal information. Give your kid some credit and assume she's
smart enough to not do that. It seems kind of mean that you are
assuming that she's stupid enough or desperate enough to give out
personal info to strangers. I've met very very few kids that would do
that, and I know some pretty desperate teens.

kelly_sturman

> Since computers and gaming has been regulated, it will take a while
> before they get filled up on it. They will though, and one day, they
> won't play as much or in exclusion to all other things.

I used to (one or two years ago) resent the time they spent in front
of screens. Then I thought about *why* I was feeling that way, and I
realized that it went back to my childhood, when my mother would
come home exhausted after 12-18 hours of work, and would not
want to deal with a child (me) and would go and de-stress in front
of the TV, making it very clear that I was not invited to watch along
with her, even. Even if I just sat very quietly. That made me so sad
that I had to see the sadness and let go of it so that I could look
at NOW and see that now is not the same as then

My kids are very happy to share their screen time with me. It's a totally
different dynamic. I just had to see it to be able to enjoy it.


> while they are in the filling up mode, be sweet and kind about it,
> don't make them feel bad for not wanting to do other things. Be
> excited about what they ARE doing!

Yes, I agree, and I *am* excited. They are so much better at it than
I am, and so willing to give me help, so happy to help and happy
that I am asking for the help. The gaming has been great for our
relationship.

One thing though: I am not convinced that they will definitely
get "filled up" and move on to other things. And I don't mind
if they *don't*. That's one fear I have been able to let go of. Even
if they are lifelong avid gamers, that's cool with me. I know a
couple of young people working in the gaming industry. And
besides, I am also letting go of worrying about "what will they
be when they grow up?" in favor of enjoying who they are NOW.

When I am not screwing it up, Unschooling really is making all our
lives so much happier and more peaceful!

For example, where we live, we are surrounded by college students.
So, our kids have a lot of opportunities to talk with older kids/young
adults, and they are very comfortable doing so. They (my kids and
the college kids who live near us) share so many interests: gaming, sci fi,
and Monty Python being just a few examples. Then there are "academic"
interests (Shakespeare, physics, mechanical engineerig) that my kids and
the college kids share (not to mention professors; the kids are very comfortable
talking with adults, too... not aware that they are supposed to be in awe of the
Ph.D. or M.D. or whatever), and my kids are relieved to have people to talk about
that stuff with, because generally, the publicly schooled kids they know don't
want to talk about those sorts of things.

The college kids who don't know that my younger kids don't go to school
wonder how my kids know so much cool stuff. They ask me, "How did
you teach them that?" and I say, "I didn't; they just learned it." (Professors
also ask the same question and receive the same answer.) The ones who
do know that my younger kids don't go to school say things like, "Wow, when
I met you last fall, I thought you were kinda crazy not to send your kids to school,
but now I see that it's a really good idea!" Or they say, "I wish I had had the
childhood they are having." A lot of them say that. Most of them, actually.

Kelly

kelly_sturman

> put admin access only on his computer, or his profile so that he can't
> download anything without the admin code.

Oh, my. I am so technically inept that I don't even know what that
means. But I know somebody who does know; I will ask him to
help me set that up.

> It seems kind of mean that you are assuming that she's stupid enough
> or desperate enough to give out personal info to strangers.

You're right; it does. Thanks for the wake-up call, there.
It takes seeing a problem to be able to fix it.

> I've met very very few kids that would do that, and I know some pretty
>desperate teens.

Probably ones who grew up with parents who assumed they were stupid.
Good golly.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

If they are breaking the site's rules they may get caught and get warnings until they are banned from using it.
My 6 year old got a warning when he wrote F**k on Roblox.
I told him that writing things like that could get him banned and them all that he build and have achieved ( many he could never get again )until that day he would loose .
He does not want that to happen and has not done anything like that since them. He was not calling anyone names but writing them for fun since he now can.
Those would be real life consequences that maybe you kids are willing to take. Mine was not.
I was very matter of fact when I explained it to him  ( and had done it before ) that using those words can be funny and all but some people are offended by them and what could happen if he said/ wrote them in certain circumstances.
I am not going to sit and watch him play because I am afraid he will do it.


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 





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kelly_sturman

> I told him that writing things like that could get him
>banned and them all that he build and have achieved
>( many he could never get again )until that day he would
>loose .

My daughter has been put on moderation for offensive
language.

<snip>
> I was very matter of fact when I explained it to him 
> ( and had done it before )

I tried to be matter-of-fact. I hope I was. It is reassuring
to be reminded that people sometimes need to hear
the same message more than once before it sinks in...
although that certainly is true of me as I am diving
further into Unschooling. I am finding I need to
be reminded: BALANCE. NOW. TRUST. BREATHE.
<snip>
> I am not going to sit and watch him play because I am
>afraid he will do it.
And Jenny is right, my daughter isn't stupid; she may
decide to break rules, but she isn't going to give away
her name and address.

Calming down, and logging off here to go level up
my mining skills...

Thanks, everybody.

I really like the idea of wi-fi in the garden, too.

Kelly

emiLy Q.

How old is the daughter? Is she a birth daughter?

Does she know about the dangers of joking around online like that?
Depending on her age, I think I'd explain the reasons why. If she seems to
be joking around, maybe she can make up some fake information to give out,
if asked? I don't play these games, but it seems like if she's
chatting/talking that much about her real self, it would be hard to play the
game.

What about having friends over, or going to friends' houses? Going to the
park, shopping, etc? I barely leave the house with 2 kids, though, so I
can't imagine making many outings with five!

-emiLy

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>>>>Get better virus protection, put admin access only on his computer, or
his profile so that he can't download anything without the admin code.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



yes, this is what i was just going to say - we have that set up, just so our kids don't impulsively or accidentally click something that will install a virus, adware, or spyware.

my daughter is the "admin" on her own laptop, so it provides her protection from "trigger finger" while still maintaining the "hers-ness" of her laptop and enabling her to develop the problem solving skills to determine what's "ok". she often asks my or my husband's opinion.

my son won't install anything without checking with us first, due to his cautious nature, so on the desktop he uses, the admin password is just to prevent accidental issues.


>>>>>>>>>If a kid is willing to break rules, it doesn't mean they are going to
share personal information. Give your kid some credit and assume she's
smart enough to not do that.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



i agree, but also think it can be helpful to talk about some REAL scenarios that can happen from small amounts of info, as i discovered a few years ago (didn't catch your daughter's age) that my now 14 year old didn't quite understand what info people could use to find out what other info, and what info might be safer, etc. and also found it helpful to hear about how internet "stalkers" can fake very well - how just because an emails says it is from someone, how that might not be so, etc. so some "tour guiding" to the nefarious world of internet predator behavior.

my daughter would definitely break rules, but wouldn't give out personal info, now that she has that information. she wants the information upon which to base her OWN decisions about what is safe and acceptable "breakage of rules" and what isn't. and given that freedom, now she comes to me for advice.

Lyla





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Sandra Dodd

-=-...the nefarious world of internet predator behavior. -=-

This is a boogey-man.

Why would a happy child want to leave the house? A child who wanted
to leave the house doesn't need an internet predator to help them out.

http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
http://sandradodd.com/internet/love.html

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I know a
couple of young people working in the gaming industry.-=-

Kirby does.

-=- And
besides, I am also letting go of worrying about "what will they
be when they grow up?" in favor of enjoying who they are NOW. -=-

He grew up to be Kirby Dodd. He was born Kirby Dodd. Every day in
there he was himown whole self

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-But they really want to play *this*. They aren't interested right now
in the thousands of other things. And I don't want to push the
thousands of other things too hard, because I don't want to give
them the impression that the other things are more worthwhile
than the gaming.-=-

-=-Also, the non-reader can do many things in the game that don't
require reading. The icing on the cake is that he may be beginning
to learn some sight words incidental to the play, and he's told me that
he's not sad that he can't read, so it's really neat if he can pick up
some
words as he's playing. -=-


Then it's not a problem?

Honestly, there's no guarantee that unschooling will work for ANY
family. The factors are too varied. And when people adopt, even when
they adopt infants, there are factors the parents may never understand
at all. So it's probably worth remining people occasionally that the
kids you're talking about were adopted, neglected, whatever, so they
won't think that longtime unschoolers with their biological parents
will be having those behaviors and attitudes.

I realize it's politically correct to pretend there's no difference
between adoptive relationships and biological relationships, but we
can't help people unschool if we're not honest about real factors.
And if people who read the list are unaware that a mom is talking
about adopted kids or kids who haven't even yet really begun to be
unschooling, the list becomes a frightening confusing place.

Please, everyone, when there are unusual factors, let it be known
within your story. Unschooling isn't magic. Unschooling is difficult
at first under the best of circumstances, and it might be impossible
under the worst, but we can't help anyone if the discussions here are
a mass of half-info.

Sandra

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Lyla Wolfenstein

-=-...the nefarious world of internet predator behavior. -=-

This is a boogey-man.

Why would a happy child want to leave the house? A child who wanted
to leave the house doesn't need an internet predator to help them out.

http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
http://sandradodd.com/internet/love.html

_____________________________________________



yes of course, i am sorry i didn't make that clear. i was combining the "i will use the computer whenever i want" type sentiments, and the adoption, along with the recent conversion to unschooling with the possible desireability of leaving the house. although, it is conceivable that a predator could find out where someone lives, or that a child/teen could be sufficiently trusting and adventuresome, and naive, to not view it as escaping an oppressive environment but as venturing out to experience something.

Lyla
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Pam Sorooshian

On 5/18/2009 2:28 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
> Absolutely that's true. I know that. And the people who
> took care of them--if you could call it that--before they
> came into my life were downright cruel. So,okay, given
> all that, what do I do now?
>

Kelly - I think you can't jump right into radical unschooling. Instead,
you ease into it. Say yes more. That doesn't mean say yes to anything
and everything.

Try to use both logic and kindness.

-pam

Verna

>
> Honestly, there's no guarantee that unschooling will work for ANY
> family. The factors are too varied. And when people adopt, even when
> they adopt infants, there are factors the parents may never understand
> at all. So it's probably worth remining people occasionally that the
> kids you're talking about were adopted, neglected, whatever, so they
> won't think that longtime unschoolers with their biological parents
> will be having those behaviors and attitudes.
>
> I realize it's politically correct to pretend there's no difference
> between adoptive relationships and biological relationships, but we
> can't help people unschool if we're not honest about real factors.
> And if people who read the list are unaware that a mom is talking
> about adopted kids or kids who haven't even yet really begun to be
> unschooling, the list becomes a frightening confusing place.
>
> Please, everyone, when there are unusual factors, let it be known
> within your story. Unschooling isn't magic. Unschooling is difficult
> at first under the best of circumstances, and it might be impossible
> under the worst, but we can't help anyone if the discussions here are
> a mass of half-info.
>
> Sandra
>
Two of our children were adopted as well, they were lucky, in their life prior to coming to us they were loved but the trauma of adoption is significant, even to a baby. Our kids were 2 and 4. I think unschooling them has looked a little different than our biological kids and will continue to evolve. I see it as a process, just as attachment is a process. These kids have a tendancy to have a very significant need to control their own lives because of their trauma and this can be challenging. Not that the control in itself is bad but they see all sorts of things as a challenge to their control. They have alot of fears that sometimes dont seem to make sence.
With your son, I would help him when I could and let him know that he is welcome to play and you will help him when you can.
Not just stupid people or people treated like they are stupid give out way too much information on the internet. I think desperate/confused people do. Try to watch your daughter as much as possible. Her situation isnt a typical one.

Jenny C

>
>>> i agree, but also think it can be helpful to talk about some REAL
scenarios that can happen from small amounts of info, as i discovered a
few years ago (didn't catch your daughter's age) that my now 14 year old
didn't quite understand what info people could use to find out what
other info, and what info might be safer, etc. and also found it helpful
to hear about how internet "stalkers" can fake very well - how just
because an emails says it is from someone, how that might not be so,
etc. so some "tour guiding" to the nefarious world of internet predator
behavior. >>>


One way that Chamille learned all this, was by doing it herself. She'd
be snooping and scooping for info and taking traces of info, and we'd do
a bit of research together to find out more info on someone. Since, we
did it, she knew what kind of info might be too much info. It was
harmless fun on our part, but it did provide insight as to what people
can find out about you from little things you say.

However, I'm not afraid of internet stalkers, and neither is Chamille.
Even if someone finds out where you live and what your real name is, it
doesn't mean they are some psycho killer that's going to come and get
you. In fact, there really aren't many psycho killers out there in the
world, except in TV and movie land. Chamille has no interest whatsoever
in meeting a random stranger at the local 7-11 store. Everytime she's
wanted to meet someone in real life, that she's met online, she always
wants me, or a group of people to go with her.

We've met many people online. Everyone has been who they said they
were. Chamille wouldn't even know her boyfriend if it weren't for the
internet, since she met his best friend online in Gaia over a year ago
and has been talking to him through myspace all this time. They were
virtual internet strangers, yet they became friends and ended up meeting
each other in another weird connected coincidental way. We live very
close to all of them. They live close enough to skateboard to our
house.

Sharing personal info isn't an all or nothing thing either. It's a case
by case thing, and a get a feel for it thing, and a talk to your parents
and keep communication open kind of thing. Chamille isn't afraid to say
to me, "hey mom, I met someone online and I want to meet them in real
life, help me set it up." And, I do. Chamille has plenty of friends
who's parents are completely freaked out about internet stranger danger
and give a blanket "no" for all internet strangers. It hasn't stopped
any of them from meeting internet strangers, they just do it without
their parents knowing and without sharing personal info.

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 19, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Jenny C wrote:

> However, I'm not afraid of internet stalkers, and neither is Chamille.

And stalkers are looking for needy kids. And stalkers have neediness
radar. The parents who are saying no to their kids, who are setting
up roadblocks between them and what they want are creating needy kids.

If the child is confident the parent will say "Let's see how we can
make that happen," when they ask for something, there's no reason to
be looking for strangers who will say that.

> We've met many people online. Everyone has been who they said they
> were.
>

I've met most of the unschoolers I know through the internet. :-)
And, as Jenny said, they've all been who they spent a long time
showing who they were.

My daughter has made the best friends through the internet because
she can connect authentically through interests on sites like
Deviantart and Subeta. She and they share who they are and what they
love. It feels totally different than interacting with someone who is
using an interest to find something else. (And why there are many
stories of people who found their future spouse when they stopped
looking for a spouse and just started living :-)

Kathryn's been to Texas and Michigan and even Poland to visit girls
she's met on the internet. (And don't even think it was easy to find
a way to say yes to sending a 16 yo on her own to Poland! But it was
well worth it for my husband and I to push past our fears and the
cheapest 10 day immersion in another culture one could get :-) She
even missed her flight from London to Warsaw (as did several people)
and handled it with aplomb while the woman next to her in line had a
breakdown. That's not something you can teach someone. But it is
something they can learn through making decisions from the time
they're small.

Joyce

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