Chores and Littering
kelly_sturman
Letting go of ways of living that are
not as peaceful and joyful as I would
like our lives to be, wading into unschooling,
I am hitting a stumbling block in re: chores.
(From what I read, I am not the first!)
We don't have a lot of chores to
begin with, but we have been living
with the idea: if you took it out,
put it back when you are done.
I love everything I read about doing
work for others from a place of love
rather than obligation, and I love
the idea of using work as a meditative
practice. I am glad that I have been
cleaning up, all along, after art projects
and cooking and science experiments.
I am rethinking the "if you took it out..."
idea.
My personal mental stumbling block:
litter. I have a kid who throws
garbage on the ground, at home and
out and about. When we are out, I say
something like, "Other people don't want
to look at our garbage; look, there's a garbage
can. Let's go put this (candy wrapper, used
napkin, whatever) in there.
But then at home, would it be just the same?
"Oh, please don't spit your gum onto the floor;
the rest of us don't want to step on it. It makes
our shoes sticky. Look, here's the garbage can;
this is a good place to spit the gum out... or throw
the candy wrapper, or the used napkin."
A common room in a home (living room, kitchen,
other shared space) is not a public place, and certainly
there aren't any fines for "littering" in the home, but
I am having a hard time getting past the idea that there
is a basic level of orderliness that everybody who shares
a common living space should help to maintain.
I know, I should be careful with "should."
And: Who says what that "basic level of orderliness"
is? In my mind, it would be the same as at the park
or at the playground: don't throw trash on the ground.
At home, if ask DS to pick up the gum he has spit on the
floor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it?
Six people out of seven think this is gross; does this mean
one of the six who thinks it's yucky should scrape the gum
off the floor?
And in public, the same, trusting in time that he will learn
not to litter in public places? And do I tell him that what
he is doing is against the law? I feel like that is important
information for him to have.
I realize this reads like I haven't read all the pages and links
on chores and gratitude and have tos, but I have, over and
over again. And I've been thinking about it a lot.
But I still feel stuck.
Kelly
not as peaceful and joyful as I would
like our lives to be, wading into unschooling,
I am hitting a stumbling block in re: chores.
(From what I read, I am not the first!)
We don't have a lot of chores to
begin with, but we have been living
with the idea: if you took it out,
put it back when you are done.
I love everything I read about doing
work for others from a place of love
rather than obligation, and I love
the idea of using work as a meditative
practice. I am glad that I have been
cleaning up, all along, after art projects
and cooking and science experiments.
I am rethinking the "if you took it out..."
idea.
My personal mental stumbling block:
litter. I have a kid who throws
garbage on the ground, at home and
out and about. When we are out, I say
something like, "Other people don't want
to look at our garbage; look, there's a garbage
can. Let's go put this (candy wrapper, used
napkin, whatever) in there.
But then at home, would it be just the same?
"Oh, please don't spit your gum onto the floor;
the rest of us don't want to step on it. It makes
our shoes sticky. Look, here's the garbage can;
this is a good place to spit the gum out... or throw
the candy wrapper, or the used napkin."
A common room in a home (living room, kitchen,
other shared space) is not a public place, and certainly
there aren't any fines for "littering" in the home, but
I am having a hard time getting past the idea that there
is a basic level of orderliness that everybody who shares
a common living space should help to maintain.
I know, I should be careful with "should."
And: Who says what that "basic level of orderliness"
is? In my mind, it would be the same as at the park
or at the playground: don't throw trash on the ground.
At home, if ask DS to pick up the gum he has spit on the
floor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it?
Six people out of seven think this is gross; does this mean
one of the six who thinks it's yucky should scrape the gum
off the floor?
And in public, the same, trusting in time that he will learn
not to litter in public places? And do I tell him that what
he is doing is against the law? I feel like that is important
information for him to have.
I realize this reads like I haven't read all the pages and links
on chores and gratitude and have tos, but I have, over and
over again. And I've been thinking about it a lot.
But I still feel stuck.
Kelly
[email protected]
>>>> At home, if ask DS to pick up the gum he has spit on thefloor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it? <<<<
Kelly, I do pick up the gum. If necessary I scrape it. What if a
child were to accidentally (not realizing) put the gum on the edge of a
plate and it rolls off but no one sees it happening. Then someone
comes along and picks up, most likely the parent. When an accident
happens, there's nothing to model or teach (which is in effect what
you're talking about with all the verbal instruction about where
garbage goes), is there? Accidents happen. Often I've spoken to Karl
and wondered if it had been an accident. Then all I've done is model
how to be irritated at messes (if the "lesson" takes). Other than
that, I've made Karl a little more nervous about accidents.
If a parent (6 out of 7, really?) thinks putting gum in one's hand is
gross, what makes a parent think that a child won't feel it's gross
too. No wonder such a child is loathe to throw garbage away.
Karl used to throw trash on the floor a lot. He didn't see a mess like
I did. He wasn't very aware of the fact that others consider garbage
on the floor to be a bad thing (littering!). When a parent
consistently picks up garbage because it's important to the parent and
.. this is important .. not saying anything about it ---just doing it
matter of factly-- then the child eventually gets the idea that garbage
goes in the trash and that child is matter of fact about doing it.
Karl has begun to be pretty good about it most of the time. He doesn't
always want to do it and will ask me to, and ... just like I might ask
Karl to do something for me, I think it's fine if sometimes he'd rather
I did it. No problem. That's building trust in the relationship
rather than focusing on the relative importance of stuff.
~Katherine
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< But then at home, would it be just the same?
napkin in it.
When Jayn has trouble with trash, and she is also now a gum chewer, I told
her that I didn't like to bend to pick stuff up so could she hand it to me.
For a long time she handed me stuff. She now hands me her gum. I keep bins
or bags all over the house. Sometimes she puts her own trash in one of these
many receptacles.
She hands me her trash at the park.
When we go for walks we take a big bag with us and pick up other people's
litter. A walk is no fun unless we are picking up litter.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> "Oh, please don't spit your gum onto the floor;Too many words. Try "Here" and hold out your open hand with or without a
> the rest of us don't want to step on it. It makes
> our shoes sticky. Look, here's the garbage can;
> this is a good place to spit the gum out... or throw
> the candy wrapper, or the used napkin.">>>>
napkin in it.
When Jayn has trouble with trash, and she is also now a gum chewer, I told
her that I didn't like to bend to pick stuff up so could she hand it to me.
For a long time she handed me stuff. She now hands me her gum. I keep bins
or bags all over the house. Sometimes she puts her own trash in one of these
many receptacles.
She hands me her trash at the park.
When we go for walks we take a big bag with us and pick up other people's
litter. A walk is no fun unless we are picking up litter.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], katherand@... wrote:
I didn't meaning that scraping up the gum is gross;
I meant that spitting gum on the floor is gross.
I didn't mean gross as in disgusting; I meant
gross as in crude behavior. I don't mind holding
my kids' ABC gum. I'm a mom; I've been peed on
pooped on, puked on, bled on... Chewed up gum
is nothing. I physically don't mind picking it up.
This is more an attitude shift that I need to make.
So, let go of judging the behavior--no more thinking,
"Oh, that's crude!"--and just pick up the mess.
Focus on the relationship. In public or at home.
Less talk, more take care of the child, and the
child's mess. Don't worry about public spaces/
private spaces.
I think I am getting it.
Kelly
> If a parent thinks putting gum in one's hand is grossSorry for not being precise enough in my language.
I didn't meaning that scraping up the gum is gross;
I meant that spitting gum on the floor is gross.
I didn't mean gross as in disgusting; I meant
gross as in crude behavior. I don't mind holding
my kids' ABC gum. I'm a mom; I've been peed on
pooped on, puked on, bled on... Chewed up gum
is nothing. I physically don't mind picking it up.
This is more an attitude shift that I need to make.
So, let go of judging the behavior--no more thinking,
"Oh, that's crude!"--and just pick up the mess.
Focus on the relationship. In public or at home.
Less talk, more take care of the child, and the
child's mess. Don't worry about public spaces/
private spaces.
I think I am getting it.
Kelly
Sandra Dodd
-=-At home, if ask DS to pick up the gum he has spit on the
floor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it?-=-
Has your son ever spit gun on the floor? Has he ever spit gum on a
sidewalk at a park? On a lawn?
-=-And in public, the same, trusting in time that he will learn
not to litter in public places? And do I tell him that what
he is doing is against the law? I feel like that is important
information for him to have.-=-
Does he litter?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
floor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it?-=-
Has your son ever spit gun on the floor? Has he ever spit gum on a
sidewalk at a park? On a lawn?
-=-And in public, the same, trusting in time that he will learn
not to litter in public places? And do I tell him that what
he is doing is against the law? I feel like that is important
information for him to have.-=-
Does he litter?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When we go for walks we take a big bag with us and pick up other
people's
litter. A walk is no fun unless we are picking up litter.-=-
Keith and I have always picked up trash, pulled stickers from
roadsides and public parks and carried them to a trash can. We pick
up aluminum cans when we're out walking, and wood we could throw in
fires. It's just a casual thing, not a hunt. We're not cleaning up
the road, but if there's something obvious and easy to get, we just
always did get it.
We didn't "teach" the kids to do that, but they saw us and wanted to
help.
One time Kirby asked if we were getting paid to do that and I said no,
we were just doing it to be nice. He really liked that and always
helped much more quickly after that, and smiled about it!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
people's
litter. A walk is no fun unless we are picking up litter.-=-
Keith and I have always picked up trash, pulled stickers from
roadsides and public parks and carried them to a trash can. We pick
up aluminum cans when we're out walking, and wood we could throw in
fires. It's just a casual thing, not a hunt. We're not cleaning up
the road, but if there's something obvious and easy to get, we just
always did get it.
We didn't "teach" the kids to do that, but they saw us and wanted to
help.
One time Kirby asked if we were getting paid to do that and I said no,
we were just doing it to be nice. He really liked that and always
helped much more quickly after that, and smiled about it!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Don't worry about public spaces/private spaces.-=-
I don't know what this means. Helping a child know what's expected is
good. It doesn't have to involve rules and punishments and
arguments. When they get old enough to understand, information is
useful! Until then, modelling is useful. If one of my kids gets up
to leave the table or to leave a room, they're likely to pick up any
dirty dishes or trash that's between them and the door, especially if
they're headed to the kitchen. They do it because other people have
done it for them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know what this means. Helping a child know what's expected is
good. It doesn't have to involve rules and punishments and
arguments. When they get old enough to understand, information is
useful! Until then, modelling is useful. If one of my kids gets up
to leave the table or to leave a room, they're likely to pick up any
dirty dishes or trash that's between them and the door, especially if
they're headed to the kitchen. They do it because other people have
done it for them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> One time Kirby asked if we were getting paid to do that and I said no,
drains lead directly to the sea, Jayn is pleased to know that she is saving
the sea creatures of the bay by collecting this trash, especially plastic
bags and packaging.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> we were just doing it to be nice. He really liked that and alwaysSince we live on the coast, right on the coast, and all the road and storm
> helped much more quickly after that, and smiled about it!>>>>
drains lead directly to the sea, Jayn is pleased to know that she is saving
the sea creatures of the bay by collecting this trash, especially plastic
bags and packaging.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
also, in light of the recent discussion about how to use
public playgrounds in a way that allows us to respect our
children while also respecting that other people have different
ideas about how to use the equipment...
...my mind made a connection between that conversation
and littering, and how a conventional parent handles
a child thoughtlessly dropping unwanted junk on the
ground, and how would it look different if a parent is
trying to parent more mindfully.
(When I say "thoughtlessly," I don't mean to convey
negative emotion. I simply mean he doesn't give
it any thought. He's done with the ice cream sandwich,
doesn't need the wrapper, so drops it.)
And then my mind went from littering (in parks,
at playgrounds, walking around town) to the
same actions, but occurring in shared living
space in the home.
He is adjusting to our family and this culture. He hasn't
been here long. The relationship is most important. That
much I know.
But in general, I think, as I am deschooling myself, I am leaning
a bit too far in the direction of unparenting. I am struggling
to find my balance. It's harder with my adoptive kids, easier
with my bio kids. With my bio kids, we are deschooling.
With the adoptive kids, we are bonding/attaching, dealing with
language barriers and different cultural assumptions,
AND deschooling. And the adoptive kids are coming
from a culture where every aspect of every day of their
lives was structured. So, I (personally) am on a steep
learning curve, and feel like, "I'd better get this right,
in a hurry..." because they're in middle childhood already,
so time is short.
Kelly
> Has your son ever spit gun on the floor? Has he ever spit gum on aYes, yes, yes, and yes. That is why I am asking the questions;
> sidewalk at a park? On a lawn?
also, in light of the recent discussion about how to use
public playgrounds in a way that allows us to respect our
children while also respecting that other people have different
ideas about how to use the equipment...
...my mind made a connection between that conversation
and littering, and how a conventional parent handles
a child thoughtlessly dropping unwanted junk on the
ground, and how would it look different if a parent is
trying to parent more mindfully.
(When I say "thoughtlessly," I don't mean to convey
negative emotion. I simply mean he doesn't give
it any thought. He's done with the ice cream sandwich,
doesn't need the wrapper, so drops it.)
And then my mind went from littering (in parks,
at playgrounds, walking around town) to the
same actions, but occurring in shared living
space in the home.
> Does he litter?Yes. He drops candy wrappers/other food wrappers/used napkins.
He is adjusting to our family and this culture. He hasn't
been here long. The relationship is most important. That
much I know.
But in general, I think, as I am deschooling myself, I am leaning
a bit too far in the direction of unparenting. I am struggling
to find my balance. It's harder with my adoptive kids, easier
with my bio kids. With my bio kids, we are deschooling.
With the adoptive kids, we are bonding/attaching, dealing with
language barriers and different cultural assumptions,
AND deschooling. And the adoptive kids are coming
from a culture where every aspect of every day of their
lives was structured. So, I (personally) am on a steep
learning curve, and feel like, "I'd better get this right,
in a hurry..." because they're in middle childhood already,
so time is short.
Kelly
Jenny C
> My personal mental stumbling block:My oldest daughter has never been one to litter in public, but my
> litter. I have a kid who throws
> garbage on the ground, at home and
> out and about. When we are out, I say
> something like, "Other people don't want
> to look at our garbage; look, there's a garbage
> can. Let's go put this (candy wrapper, used
> napkin, whatever) in there.
>
> But then at home, would it be just the same?
> "Oh, please don't spit your gum onto the floor;
> the rest of us don't want to step on it. It makes
> our shoes sticky. Look, here's the garbage can;
> this is a good place to spit the gum out... or throw
> the candy wrapper, or the used napkin."
younger daughter has and both of them have done the garbage all over the
floor.
As to the garbage in the house, I got paper sacks and folded over the
tops and put them ALL over the house, some rooms had a couple, like the
living room where individual people hung out in individual spaces within
the living room. I announced that there were garbage cans all over and
showed them both where they all were. I didn't have a problem with that
much after that. On occasion someone would eat a bunch of little
candies that were individually wrapped while sitting on the couch and
I'd just come in and pick them all up and put them into the nearest
sack. That was maybe 4 yrs ago, and now I only have a few sacks out and
about and everyone uses them instead of the floor or coffee table.
If we are out and about in public spaces, and one of my kids left
garbage, I'd clean it up. My youngest almost always cleans up these
days, but she didn't used to at all. I've made a habit of always
picking up garbage in public spaces, even if the garbage wasn't any of
ours. I just do it if I see it and there is a can nearby. I've even
been known to tell a stranger that they accidentally dropped some
garbage, or even say, "here, let me get that garbage that you've
accidentally dropped."
ellinghamsandwich
i recently received a chart from my parenting class that i'm taking (which i take most w/ a grain of salt...but thankfully most of it is geared to parents taking care of themselves and loving themselves in order to love and truly BE there for their children...)& the chart details kids and their abilities in re. to taking on responsibilities/household 'chores'...it basically says that children before about 10ish need assistance...they need help...things such as...doing laundry...dishes...etc. and i have found this is so true.
i have often expected my megh could do things all by herself and remember the whole process... i have had a real awakening by all this and realized i need to help her w/ stuff...stand back and then help out when need be...i have expected too much of her. especially things like doing laundry... like... today.
my daughter and her friend are 6.5yo. her friend is spending the night. i'm a single mom and have a little guy 17 mos. to look after...we don't have a washer and dryer in our condo so we have to take it to a laundry room the next building down. so i asked my daughter and her friend to take the laundry down in the basket and gave them quarters and poured the soap in the clothes. megh has put laundry in washing machines before...so i figured ok, she knows what to do. she knows to put the coins in and push that thing in to start the machine... ok. good enough, right...wrong! my neighbor in the condo downstairs just knocked on the door to ask me if i was doing laundry...i said yes...she looked frazzled but was being polite of course... :O) so to make a long story short, it seems like the girls took the neighbors clothes out of the washer soaking wet...then put most of it in the dryer. didn't start the dryer, of course. then they started the washer i suppose w/ our clothes and some of the neighbors mixed in...oh boy. well i'm sure they learned from it but next time i'll go along w/ them i think... isn't that funny! we learn the hard way most of the time, don't we... hee!
i just had to share this as i think most of us could stand to be reminded of this in regards to the littler ones in our houses... ;o)
-lis
i have often expected my megh could do things all by herself and remember the whole process... i have had a real awakening by all this and realized i need to help her w/ stuff...stand back and then help out when need be...i have expected too much of her. especially things like doing laundry... like... today.
my daughter and her friend are 6.5yo. her friend is spending the night. i'm a single mom and have a little guy 17 mos. to look after...we don't have a washer and dryer in our condo so we have to take it to a laundry room the next building down. so i asked my daughter and her friend to take the laundry down in the basket and gave them quarters and poured the soap in the clothes. megh has put laundry in washing machines before...so i figured ok, she knows what to do. she knows to put the coins in and push that thing in to start the machine... ok. good enough, right...wrong! my neighbor in the condo downstairs just knocked on the door to ask me if i was doing laundry...i said yes...she looked frazzled but was being polite of course... :O) so to make a long story short, it seems like the girls took the neighbors clothes out of the washer soaking wet...then put most of it in the dryer. didn't start the dryer, of course. then they started the washer i suppose w/ our clothes and some of the neighbors mixed in...oh boy. well i'm sure they learned from it but next time i'll go along w/ them i think... isn't that funny! we learn the hard way most of the time, don't we... hee!
i just had to share this as i think most of us could stand to be reminded of this in regards to the littler ones in our houses... ;o)
-lis
--- In [email protected], "kelly_sturman" <conspicuousfamily@...> wrote:
>
> Letting go of ways of living that are
> not as peaceful and joyful as I would
> like our lives to be, wading into unschooling,
> I am hitting a stumbling block in re: chores.
> (From what I read, I am not the first!)
>
> We don't have a lot of chores to
> begin with, but we have been living
> with the idea: if you took it out,
> put it back when you are done.
>
> I love everything I read about doing
> work for others from a place of love
> rather than obligation, and I love
> the idea of using work as a meditative
> practice. I am glad that I have been
> cleaning up, all along, after art projects
> and cooking and science experiments.
>
> I am rethinking the "if you took it out..."
> idea.
>
> My personal mental stumbling block:
> litter. I have a kid who throws
> garbage on the ground, at home and
> out and about. When we are out, I say
> something like, "Other people don't want
> to look at our garbage; look, there's a garbage
> can. Let's go put this (candy wrapper, used
> napkin, whatever) in there.
>
> But then at home, would it be just the same?
> "Oh, please don't spit your gum onto the floor;
> the rest of us don't want to step on it. It makes
> our shoes sticky. Look, here's the garbage can;
> this is a good place to spit the gum out... or throw
> the candy wrapper, or the used napkin."
>
> A common room in a home (living room, kitchen,
> other shared space) is not a public place, and certainly
> there aren't any fines for "littering" in the home, but
> I am having a hard time getting past the idea that there
> is a basic level of orderliness that everybody who shares
> a common living space should help to maintain.
>
> I know, I should be careful with "should."
> And: Who says what that "basic level of orderliness"
> is? In my mind, it would be the same as at the park
> or at the playground: don't throw trash on the ground.
>
> At home, if ask DS to pick up the gum he has spit on the
> floor, and he says, "You do it..." do I simply adjust my
> attitude (let go of feelings of being disrespected) and do it?
> Six people out of seven think this is gross; does this mean
> one of the six who thinks it's yucky should scrape the gum
> off the floor?
>
> And in public, the same, trusting in time that he will learn
> not to litter in public places? And do I tell him that what
> he is doing is against the law? I feel like that is important
> information for him to have.
>
> I realize this reads like I haven't read all the pages and links
> on chores and gratitude and have tos, but I have, over and
> over again. And I've been thinking about it a lot.
>
> But I still feel stuck.
>
> Kelly
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Has your son ever spit gun on the floor? Has he ever spit gum on a
The reason it was worth asking is that some people jump to dire
conclusions, or ask us if we let them eat M&Ms, what will we do when
they're shooting heroin.
If it were me, I would not give gum to a child who had spit it out
that way. If they wanted gum, I would say "I'm afraid if I give this
to you I'll end up having to pick it up, and that's yucky." (or the
equivalent in your own common phrasing--not that very phrase, but
I'd've said that, or "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have
to pick it up.")
Then either they could pretend not to want the gum anymore, which is
fine, or they could say please, or I'll pick it up, or whatever. Then
I would (and I have, often) give them a kleenex or paper napkin, too,
and say "keep this to put the gum in when you're done."
Very occasionally one of my kids would drop trash, or set it down and
it would blow away. I'd say "Hey, look," or "Could you get that,
please?" and they would. It doesn't need to be a lecture about
littering, but they did know that there were fines for littering. I'd
read signs to them as a matter of course, about the rules of parks or
whatever. Not every time, just if it was interesting or we were new
to a particular park or town or situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> sidewalk at a park? On a lawn?-=-Yes, yes, yes, and yes. That is why I am asking the questions;-=-
The reason it was worth asking is that some people jump to dire
conclusions, or ask us if we let them eat M&Ms, what will we do when
they're shooting heroin.
If it were me, I would not give gum to a child who had spit it out
that way. If they wanted gum, I would say "I'm afraid if I give this
to you I'll end up having to pick it up, and that's yucky." (or the
equivalent in your own common phrasing--not that very phrase, but
I'd've said that, or "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have
to pick it up.")
Then either they could pretend not to want the gum anymore, which is
fine, or they could say please, or I'll pick it up, or whatever. Then
I would (and I have, often) give them a kleenex or paper napkin, too,
and say "keep this to put the gum in when you're done."
Very occasionally one of my kids would drop trash, or set it down and
it would blow away. I'd say "Hey, look," or "Could you get that,
please?" and they would. It doesn't need to be a lecture about
littering, but they did know that there were fines for littering. I'd
read signs to them as a matter of course, about the rules of parks or
whatever. Not every time, just if it was interesting or we were new
to a particular park or town or situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
This child steals from the other kids' rooms. This is very
understandable. Nine months ago, he didn't have a thing to call
his own. He is learning so much about ownership and boundaries
and abundance. He is still living with fear that all this new wonderful
stuff: the toys, the food, the screens, the freedoms, the hugging
arms, will go away. He will let go of those fears when he is ready.
Meanwhile, he may hoard things, he may steal things, he may
express general distrust in many ways.
Meanwhile, last time he stole gum from a brother's room,
his brother asked him to use some of his allowance to pay him
back for the gum, and DS did that. We reiterated that we don't go
into other people's rooms or take other people's things without asking,
and then I mentioned that if he wants gum, it is nicer to buy
his own than to take it from his brother's desk drawer. I offered
to bring him to the store to buy his own gum when he wants gum.
So, usually, I would agree with this approach:
is more important to prioritize finding a way for him to get
gum that doesn't involve stealing it than it is to set up the
if/then contract about gum-chewing.
gum in the wrapper when he is done with it, but he's not choosing
to do that. Or, he's just forgetting. It's easier just to spit the gum
out, and he's coming from a culture where spitting (saliva) in public
(even indoors) is not considered impolite.
rules. He can understand that there are different rules in a park
than there are at home.
But here, again, is the mental roadblock I'm setting up for myself
vis-a-vis chores:
dishes in front of the Playstation and I have to pick them up."
And so on. There is a slippery slope and a tendency to fall
back into have tos. If he doesn't have to carry his own dirty
dishes to the sink or his own dirty laundry to the hamper,
why should he have to carry his garbage to the garbage can?
Because there are seven people sharing these rooms and six
of us don't like that level of mess?
Can I tell him that it's not fair for him to make certain messes,
but that he's completely encouraged to make others?
And then, we could go to the other extreme; we've got one son
who thrives on peace and quiet and order. That is not our house,
not usually. There are ongoing board games left out. (Civilization
--old school, board game version--takes a long time to play!
Chess, too, if each person is only making a move
once or twice a day.) There are science projects in various stages.
There is artwork being made, or drying, or whatever. There
is music being played, usually homemade, on various instruments
we enjoy playing, but occasionally coming out of the iPod. There
are books and video game cartridges lying about. There are puzzles
in various stages of creation. My extremely neat son sees all of
this as "mess." The rest of us see "fun" and "creativity." I tidy things
up to the extent that I can, without interfering with other's creations,
when I get around to it, but usually I choose to be in the middle of
all the fun and creativity. I focus on having clean dishes to eat
off of and clean clothes to wear. Still, gum stuck to the floor, or
in the carpet? That, personally, is where I draw the line.
We don't have tone of voice or body language here, so I do
want to say that I feeling defensive, confrontational, or argumentative.
I *am* feeling confused. I read and re-read the pages (chores,
gratitude, balance, have to, screw it up) and sometimes, as
now, I get stuck.
Throughout the variety of suggestions being offered, I am
hearing the very sound advice to put the relationship first.
That is where I can focus when I am breathing and choosing.
Kelly
> If it were me, I would not give gum to a child who had spit it outThat would be my usual response to. But each child is different.
> that way.
This child steals from the other kids' rooms. This is very
understandable. Nine months ago, he didn't have a thing to call
his own. He is learning so much about ownership and boundaries
and abundance. He is still living with fear that all this new wonderful
stuff: the toys, the food, the screens, the freedoms, the hugging
arms, will go away. He will let go of those fears when he is ready.
Meanwhile, he may hoard things, he may steal things, he may
express general distrust in many ways.
Meanwhile, last time he stole gum from a brother's room,
his brother asked him to use some of his allowance to pay him
back for the gum, and DS did that. We reiterated that we don't go
into other people's rooms or take other people's things without asking,
and then I mentioned that if he wants gum, it is nicer to buy
his own than to take it from his brother's desk drawer. I offered
to bring him to the store to buy his own gum when he wants gum.
So, usually, I would agree with this approach:
> If they wanted gum, I would say "I'm afraid if I give thisBut in this case, I feel in building the relationship, that it
> to you I'll end up having to pick it up, and that's yucky." (or the
> equivalent in your own common phrasing--not that very phrase, but
> I'd've said that,
is more important to prioritize finding a way for him to get
gum that doesn't involve stealing it than it is to set up the
if/then contract about gum-chewing.
> I would (and I have, often) give them a kleenex or paper napkin, too,I have shown him how to keep the wrapper, and how to put the
> and say "keep this to put the gum in when you're done."
gum in the wrapper when he is done with it, but he's not choosing
to do that. Or, he's just forgetting. It's easier just to spit the gum
out, and he's coming from a culture where spitting (saliva) in public
(even indoors) is not considered impolite.
> It doesn't need to be a lecture about littering, but they didYeah, it feels that way to me, too, that he should be aware of the
> know that there were fines for littering. I'd read signs to them
> as a matter of course, about the rules of parks or whatever.
rules. He can understand that there are different rules in a park
than there are at home.
But here, again, is the mental roadblock I'm setting up for myself
vis-a-vis chores:
> "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have to pick it up.")Okay. But then, why not: "It's not fair that you left your dirty
dishes in front of the Playstation and I have to pick them up."
And so on. There is a slippery slope and a tendency to fall
back into have tos. If he doesn't have to carry his own dirty
dishes to the sink or his own dirty laundry to the hamper,
why should he have to carry his garbage to the garbage can?
Because there are seven people sharing these rooms and six
of us don't like that level of mess?
Can I tell him that it's not fair for him to make certain messes,
but that he's completely encouraged to make others?
And then, we could go to the other extreme; we've got one son
who thrives on peace and quiet and order. That is not our house,
not usually. There are ongoing board games left out. (Civilization
--old school, board game version--takes a long time to play!
Chess, too, if each person is only making a move
once or twice a day.) There are science projects in various stages.
There is artwork being made, or drying, or whatever. There
is music being played, usually homemade, on various instruments
we enjoy playing, but occasionally coming out of the iPod. There
are books and video game cartridges lying about. There are puzzles
in various stages of creation. My extremely neat son sees all of
this as "mess." The rest of us see "fun" and "creativity." I tidy things
up to the extent that I can, without interfering with other's creations,
when I get around to it, but usually I choose to be in the middle of
all the fun and creativity. I focus on having clean dishes to eat
off of and clean clothes to wear. Still, gum stuck to the floor, or
in the carpet? That, personally, is where I draw the line.
We don't have tone of voice or body language here, so I do
want to say that I feeling defensive, confrontational, or argumentative.
I *am* feeling confused. I read and re-read the pages (chores,
gratitude, balance, have to, screw it up) and sometimes, as
now, I get stuck.
Throughout the variety of suggestions being offered, I am
hearing the very sound advice to put the relationship first.
That is where I can focus when I am breathing and choosing.
Kelly
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
they see out and about. That in itself probably answers my
question: lots of good role models for kid #5!
Around here, though, we have to be *very* careful when
we pick up litter. We live very close to campus,
surrounded by fraternities, and some of the litter is harmless
to pick up: pizza boxes, fast food wrappers. But much of
it is perhaps dangerous: e.g, broken beer bottles or old, rusty
cans. And then there are the, ahem, used prophylactics left in the
stand of woods behind our property. (Don't these college kids have
dorm rooms, apartments, someplace else to go other than the woods?)
Kelly
> Keith and I have always picked up trash... <snip>4/5 of my kids have that attitude: They want to pick up litter
> We didn't "teach" the kids to do that, but they saw us and wanted to
> help.
they see out and about. That in itself probably answers my
question: lots of good role models for kid #5!
Around here, though, we have to be *very* careful when
we pick up litter. We live very close to campus,
surrounded by fraternities, and some of the litter is harmless
to pick up: pizza boxes, fast food wrappers. But much of
it is perhaps dangerous: e.g, broken beer bottles or old, rusty
cans. And then there are the, ahem, used prophylactics left in the
stand of woods behind our property. (Don't these college kids have
dorm rooms, apartments, someplace else to go other than the woods?)
Kelly
kelly_sturman
> We don't have tone of voice or body language here,so leaving out a word that completely changes the meaning
of the sentence is not good! SORRY! I meant:
>so I do want to say that I DON'T feel defensive, confrontational,
>or argumentative.
> I *am* feeling confused. I read and re-read the pages (chores,
> gratitude, balance, have to, screw it up) and sometimes, as
> now, I get stuck.
>
> Throughout the variety of suggestions being offered, I am
> hearing the very sound advice to put the relationship first.
> That is where I can focus when I am breathing and choosing.
>
> Kelly
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-But in this case, I feel in building the relationship, that it
is more important to prioritize finding a way for him to get
gum that doesn't involve stealing it than it is to set up the
if/then contract about gum-chewing.-=-
Those are unrelated things. If he's made to buy his own gum, you
don't get to say no. If you have a great big stash of gum (or even a
fivepack) and all he needs to do is ask, and agree to put it in the
trash when he's done, the questions about stealing or buying aren't
any part of it.
-=-Can I tell him that it's not fair for him to make certain messes,
but that he's completely encouraged to make others? -=-
I don't know of anyone who completely encourages a child to make a
mess. Eating a meal isn't "making a mess." Doing an art project
isn't "making a mess," although there can be a fair amount of
cleanup. Chewing gum isn't such a communal, productive thing. It's
personal. It's something that comes out of a person, filled with the
potential of germs.
If I pick up Keith's juice cup, it's not unsanitary. He didn't put
the cup where it will stick to carpet or stick to the bottom of socks
or shoes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is more important to prioritize finding a way for him to get
gum that doesn't involve stealing it than it is to set up the
if/then contract about gum-chewing.-=-
Those are unrelated things. If he's made to buy his own gum, you
don't get to say no. If you have a great big stash of gum (or even a
fivepack) and all he needs to do is ask, and agree to put it in the
trash when he's done, the questions about stealing or buying aren't
any part of it.
-=-Can I tell him that it's not fair for him to make certain messes,
but that he's completely encouraged to make others? -=-
I don't know of anyone who completely encourages a child to make a
mess. Eating a meal isn't "making a mess." Doing an art project
isn't "making a mess," although there can be a fair amount of
cleanup. Chewing gum isn't such a communal, productive thing. It's
personal. It's something that comes out of a person, filled with the
potential of germs.
If I pick up Keith's juice cup, it's not unsanitary. He didn't put
the cup where it will stick to carpet or stick to the bottom of socks
or shoes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-my daughter and her friend are 6.5yo. her friend is spending the
night. i'm a single mom and have a little guy 17 mos. to look
after...we don't have a washer and dryer in our condo so we have to
take it to a laundry room the next building down. -=-
I don't know if it was light out or night, and I don't know if the
laundry room is isolated, or how the buildings and neighborhood are,
but if I leave a six year old with another family, I would NOT be
happy if they sent her off with just another six year old to another
building.
I think that seems too much responsibility for money and clothing and
other people's comfort, even if there weren't potential dangers you
probably don't want to discuss with girls that young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
night. i'm a single mom and have a little guy 17 mos. to look
after...we don't have a washer and dryer in our condo so we have to
take it to a laundry room the next building down. -=-
I don't know if it was light out or night, and I don't know if the
laundry room is isolated, or how the buildings and neighborhood are,
but if I leave a six year old with another family, I would NOT be
happy if they sent her off with just another six year old to another
building.
I think that seems too much responsibility for money and clothing and
other people's comfort, even if there weren't potential dangers you
probably don't want to discuss with girls that young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 9, 2009, at 12:01 AM, kelly_sturman wrote:
gum and other litter. If a parent has given a child information and
he doesn't do it then the explanation seems to be he either doesn't
understand -- so the parent explains again and again -- or he's
essentially saying screw you -- so the parent gets mad.
A viewpoint that will help you respond without that baggage is seeing
that he can't yet understand or he can't yet attach the understanding
to action. It's possible he's focused on something else and he is
oblivious to his actions. His ability to focus will increase with age
but you can't force it to happen sooner. You can make the intervening
time unpleasant, though if you're frustrated that he's not someone
other than who he is right now.
Instead, you be his awareness. Call his attention with "Gum!" or
"Trash!" or "Hey, let's get that in the trash." When you bring his
awareness, don't bring it to an unpleasant atmosphere (frustration,
anger, humiliation, spills of information.) He won't want to bring
his awareness to that! Trust he's doing the best he can with the
information and skills he has right now. Help him do better.
kids. Depends where their head is in the situation.
The point is to bring awareness to a situation to help him, not set
up rules.
Joyce
> I have shown him how to keep the wrapper, and how to put theI think your focus is on turning him into someone who doesn't drop
> gum in the wrapper when he is done with it, but he's not choosing
> to do that. Or, he's just forgetting. It's easier just to spit the gum
> out, and he's coming from a culture where spitting (saliva) in public
> (even indoors) is not considered impolite.
gum and other litter. If a parent has given a child information and
he doesn't do it then the explanation seems to be he either doesn't
understand -- so the parent explains again and again -- or he's
essentially saying screw you -- so the parent gets mad.
A viewpoint that will help you respond without that baggage is seeing
that he can't yet understand or he can't yet attach the understanding
to action. It's possible he's focused on something else and he is
oblivious to his actions. His ability to focus will increase with age
but you can't force it to happen sooner. You can make the intervening
time unpleasant, though if you're frustrated that he's not someone
other than who he is right now.
Instead, you be his awareness. Call his attention with "Gum!" or
"Trash!" or "Hey, let's get that in the trash." When you bring his
awareness, don't bring it to an unpleasant atmosphere (frustration,
anger, humiliation, spills of information.) He won't want to bring
his awareness to that! Trust he's doing the best he can with the
information and skills he has right now. Help him do better.
> > "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have to pick it up.")If that doesn't sound helpful, don't do it. It might work with some
>
> Okay. But then, why not: "It's not fair that you left your dirty
> dishes in front of the Playstation and I have to pick them up."
>
kids. Depends where their head is in the situation.
The point is to bring awareness to a situation to help him, not set
up rules.
Joyce
Verna
Sorry, I cant find where I think you mentioned that your son is stealing and also he was recently adopted, learning a new language, dealing with attachment issues. etc...
Is your son perhaps dealing with some oppositional behavior due to the attachment issues? If so, it is possible, not that he doesnt understand that gum shouldnt be thrown on the floor (or other trash) but that he knows you dont want him to do this. I assume you have asked him to pick it up several times, and expressed your unhappiness with it being thrown down.
I think in your cirumstances I would bring a trashcan to him and say, "hey lets clean up this mess", and proceed to clean up, if he helps great, if he doesnt ignore it.
Is your son perhaps dealing with some oppositional behavior due to the attachment issues? If so, it is possible, not that he doesnt understand that gum shouldnt be thrown on the floor (or other trash) but that he knows you dont want him to do this. I assume you have asked him to pick it up several times, and expressed your unhappiness with it being thrown down.
I think in your cirumstances I would bring a trashcan to him and say, "hey lets clean up this mess", and proceed to clean up, if he helps great, if he doesnt ignore it.
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/9/2009 5:30 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
teamwork and helpfulness. Years.
Reminding you that we're not offering a "technique" that "works" to
magically get your kid to do what you want them to do. I googled around
looking for parenting advice - haven't done that in quite a long time.
This is typical of what parenting "experts" are promising:
*"*Tips That Will Help You Gain Control Over Your Kids. Get Them to Do
What You Want Them To Do."
We are not promising that.
I have a 24 year old who has lived on her own for a few years. She was
messy at home - when she was younger it was a HUGE issue here in our
house. I didn't handle it well at all. I felt resentful that I "had to"
clean up after her. I made up all kinds of different reward systems that
didn't work out. I yelled and begged and cried. WHAT a waste!! Later,
when she was older, I read what others were writing about chores and I
changed. I did a little more work around the house and did it with a
happy-to-be-able-to-do-it attitude.
My kids didn't suddenly change and start doing housework. But, the
shaming and fighting stopped. Instantly. I had THAT in my control all
the time. After a few years (remember, my kids were already teens when I
started this), one day I realized that they were really helpful. I
noticed that they jump up to carry in groceries when I come home from
the store. I'd notice the dishwasher was unloaded. I'd notice someone
had picked up the living room clutter - straightened up. When we have
company coming over, I'd start cleaning up and the kids would just seem
to naturally jump in to help. Rosie sort of took on cleaning the
bathroom as her regular thing and just does it once in a while. Rox
notices when the living room needs dusting and just does it. We're at
the point that I can say, "If anybody has time, can you do a load of
dishes?" and probably someone will.
My 24 year old in her own house? She lives pretty much the same way we
do - her house gets messy when she's busy. When she has more at-home
time her house is nice and neat. She's fixed it up beautifully - painted
in lovely colors and lots of artwork. Slowly, she's collected some nice
furniture pieces - other people's give-aways, etc. Her little house is
wonderful - very comfy and peaceful and inviting. People like to go hang
out there, with her. Isn't that what really matters?
There are at least these three reasons people have "chore battles" with
their kids.
1. They want the kids to help clean up because they want the cleaning
done and don't want to do it all themselves. They feel resentful at
cleaning up after other people or when other people are having fun.
2. They want the kids to help clean up because they think the kids "need
to learn how" to do chores so that they can do them when they grow up.
3. They want the kids to help clean because they want to be in charge,
they want their kids to be obedient, this is something they can order
them to do and they want their kids to obey orders.
#1 -- battles over chores are far worse than doing it yourself in a
happy, peaceful way. Better to create a sweet and calm atmosphere in
your house - if you can do that by doing a little more "picking up" for
other people, why not?
#2 - kids shamed and badgered and coerced with bribes and punishments
will grow up resenting housework, too. Vicious cycle is being
perpetuated. They don't need to do chores for years and years to learn
how to do them. It isn't rocket science. They can learn when they need
to learn. They can learn a lot more from voluntarily and happily joining
in a time or two than from years of force which creates resistance.
#3 - what do you really want? Is following orders at the top of your
priorities? Is it that important to you to feel in control that you're
willing to have almost daily struggles with your kids over it? Is that
the kind of relationship you want to build with your kids?
-pam
> Instead, you be his awareness. Call his attention with "Gum!" orYou may have to do it this way for years. Calmly and in a spirit of
> "Trash!" or "Hey, let's get that in the trash." When you bring his
> awareness, don't bring it to an unpleasant atmosphere (frustration,
> anger, humiliation, spills of information.) He won't want to bring
> his awareness to that! Trust he's doing the best he can with the
> information and skills he has right now. Help him do better.
>
teamwork and helpfulness. Years.
Reminding you that we're not offering a "technique" that "works" to
magically get your kid to do what you want them to do. I googled around
looking for parenting advice - haven't done that in quite a long time.
This is typical of what parenting "experts" are promising:
*"*Tips That Will Help You Gain Control Over Your Kids. Get Them to Do
What You Want Them To Do."
We are not promising that.
I have a 24 year old who has lived on her own for a few years. She was
messy at home - when she was younger it was a HUGE issue here in our
house. I didn't handle it well at all. I felt resentful that I "had to"
clean up after her. I made up all kinds of different reward systems that
didn't work out. I yelled and begged and cried. WHAT a waste!! Later,
when she was older, I read what others were writing about chores and I
changed. I did a little more work around the house and did it with a
happy-to-be-able-to-do-it attitude.
My kids didn't suddenly change and start doing housework. But, the
shaming and fighting stopped. Instantly. I had THAT in my control all
the time. After a few years (remember, my kids were already teens when I
started this), one day I realized that they were really helpful. I
noticed that they jump up to carry in groceries when I come home from
the store. I'd notice the dishwasher was unloaded. I'd notice someone
had picked up the living room clutter - straightened up. When we have
company coming over, I'd start cleaning up and the kids would just seem
to naturally jump in to help. Rosie sort of took on cleaning the
bathroom as her regular thing and just does it once in a while. Rox
notices when the living room needs dusting and just does it. We're at
the point that I can say, "If anybody has time, can you do a load of
dishes?" and probably someone will.
My 24 year old in her own house? She lives pretty much the same way we
do - her house gets messy when she's busy. When she has more at-home
time her house is nice and neat. She's fixed it up beautifully - painted
in lovely colors and lots of artwork. Slowly, she's collected some nice
furniture pieces - other people's give-aways, etc. Her little house is
wonderful - very comfy and peaceful and inviting. People like to go hang
out there, with her. Isn't that what really matters?
There are at least these three reasons people have "chore battles" with
their kids.
1. They want the kids to help clean up because they want the cleaning
done and don't want to do it all themselves. They feel resentful at
cleaning up after other people or when other people are having fun.
2. They want the kids to help clean up because they think the kids "need
to learn how" to do chores so that they can do them when they grow up.
3. They want the kids to help clean because they want to be in charge,
they want their kids to be obedient, this is something they can order
them to do and they want their kids to obey orders.
#1 -- battles over chores are far worse than doing it yourself in a
happy, peaceful way. Better to create a sweet and calm atmosphere in
your house - if you can do that by doing a little more "picking up" for
other people, why not?
#2 - kids shamed and badgered and coerced with bribes and punishments
will grow up resenting housework, too. Vicious cycle is being
perpetuated. They don't need to do chores for years and years to learn
how to do them. It isn't rocket science. They can learn when they need
to learn. They can learn a lot more from voluntarily and happily joining
in a time or two than from years of force which creates resistance.
#3 - what do you really want? Is following orders at the top of your
priorities? Is it that important to you to feel in control that you're
willing to have almost daily struggles with your kids over it? Is that
the kind of relationship you want to build with your kids?
-pam
Roberta Scherr
Kelly,
My son spent his first five years in the NJ foster system. He had many unwelcome behaviors when he joined us. He was hypervigilant and would look everywhere for something of value. So on a city street he would be picking things up like bird feathers, etc.
He also has a hard time picking up after himself, he will help me willingly whenever i ask him to do anything but seems to feel unloved if I want him to be responsible for his messes.
What has worked for us over the last six years is to be very consistent in our requests, and to help him to do whatever he can't do by himself. Robbie seems to respond to this and feel supported by it.
It has taken 6 years to extinguish about 90% of the scavenging.
The emotional and nurturing deficits that he has are so profound, it takes so long.
Bobbi
________________________________
From: kelly_sturman <conspicuousfamily@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 7:21:59 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Chores and Littering
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son spent his first five years in the NJ foster system. He had many unwelcome behaviors when he joined us. He was hypervigilant and would look everywhere for something of value. So on a city street he would be picking things up like bird feathers, etc.
He also has a hard time picking up after himself, he will help me willingly whenever i ask him to do anything but seems to feel unloved if I want him to be responsible for his messes.
What has worked for us over the last six years is to be very consistent in our requests, and to help him to do whatever he can't do by himself. Robbie seems to respond to this and feel supported by it.
It has taken 6 years to extinguish about 90% of the scavenging.
The emotional and nurturing deficits that he has are so profound, it takes so long.
Bobbi
________________________________
From: kelly_sturman <conspicuousfamily@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 7:21:59 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Chores and Littering
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> For a long time she handed me stuff. She now hands me her gum. I keepbins
> or bags all over the house. Sometimes she puts her own trash in one ofthese
> many receptacles.OH my goodness! You just reminded me of the fact that my kids hand me
>
> She hands me her trash at the park.
stuff all the time. I'm so used to it, that sometimes I don't even
realize they are doing it, then suddenly my hands are full, and I'm like
"geez louize, am I now a garbage can you guys?". It's something we all
laugh about. It's a little joke because they do it and sometimes I
really don't even notice, and sometimes they try to see what absurd
thing they can hand me without me noticing!
Jenny C
> But here, again, is the mental roadblock I'm setting up for myselfThis is where the logical reasoning behind why we do things matters a
> vis-a-vis chores:
>
> > "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have to pick it up.")
>
> Okay. But then, why not: "It's not fair that you left your dirty
> dishes in front of the Playstation and I have to pick them up."
>
> And so on. There is a slippery slope and a tendency to fall
> back into have tos. If he doesn't have to carry his own dirty
> dishes to the sink or his own dirty laundry to the hamper,
> why should he have to carry his garbage to the garbage can?
> Because there are seven people sharing these rooms and six
> of us don't like that level of mess?
great deal. Dirty dishes left next to the PS isn't going to get stuck
on someone's foot or ground into the carpet. Dirty dishes can sit there
for a day and probably be just fine, unless you live in a house with
lots of natural pesty invaders such as ants or cocroaches.
It works the same for dirty laundry. If the laundry is dirty, why would
it be weird for it to be on the floor instead of the hamper. The only
distinction that we've made with dirty clothes, is if it's wet and
dirty, put it in the bathtub or on the bathroom floor, so that it
doesn't get moldy and gross or get other things moldy and gross.
> Can I tell him that it's not fair for him to make certain messes,What you can tell him, is WHY you prefer one thing over another and hope
> but that he's completely encouraged to make others?
that he honors it, and until he can, do it for him. Before you tell him
why, really consider it yourself first.
Robyn L. Coburn
I personally don't like getting into a thought process that involves "it's
not fair". For me that thinking is a mental slippery slope into a litany of
all kinds of other unfairness in my life, most of which are the result of
willing choices that I have made. Some might consider it unfair that I stay
up all night with my dd because she needs my company, or that I arrange my
writing schedule around her, or that I happily pick up after my dh and dd,
or conversely that I get to stay home with my kid and often my dh.
The world isn't necessarily fair. We live in a world where merit is not
necessarily rewarded as much as notoriety, and a man's inheritance can be
stolen from him by a stepmother's malice. People unschooling in New York
have endless hoops to jump through that I am free from in California.
If I happen to have PMS on a particular day, ideas about unfairness can send
me into tears.
It starts me on to a path of what other people "should" be doing, how *they*
should change, instead of focussing on what I can change - my own attitude
and behavior.
Best not to go there at all for me. Best to keep on joyfully helping my
family be happy and peaceful by doing all I want to without worrying about
fair.
I've written many times that Jayn is far more willing to carry my plate to
the kitchen, than hers. She is still like that. When she is visiting homes
where they have rules about carrying your own plate to the kitchen or trash
to the bin, she just does it. I could consider that she is still being
unfair to me by keeping her best behavior for visiting, but I'm don't - I'm
relieved and happy to know that she is nice when out of my sight.
I loved that idea about children feeling loved when taken care of and helped
by having mom be ready to take the gum from them instead of getting caught
up in what is fair. It may be that that little boy has had to deal with a
lot of unfairness in his life already.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
not fair". For me that thinking is a mental slippery slope into a litany of
all kinds of other unfairness in my life, most of which are the result of
willing choices that I have made. Some might consider it unfair that I stay
up all night with my dd because she needs my company, or that I arrange my
writing schedule around her, or that I happily pick up after my dh and dd,
or conversely that I get to stay home with my kid and often my dh.
The world isn't necessarily fair. We live in a world where merit is not
necessarily rewarded as much as notoriety, and a man's inheritance can be
stolen from him by a stepmother's malice. People unschooling in New York
have endless hoops to jump through that I am free from in California.
If I happen to have PMS on a particular day, ideas about unfairness can send
me into tears.
It starts me on to a path of what other people "should" be doing, how *they*
should change, instead of focussing on what I can change - my own attitude
and behavior.
Best not to go there at all for me. Best to keep on joyfully helping my
family be happy and peaceful by doing all I want to without worrying about
fair.
I've written many times that Jayn is far more willing to carry my plate to
the kitchen, than hers. She is still like that. When she is visiting homes
where they have rules about carrying your own plate to the kitchen or trash
to the bin, she just does it. I could consider that she is still being
unfair to me by keeping her best behavior for visiting, but I'm don't - I'm
relieved and happy to know that she is nice when out of my sight.
I loved that idea about children feeling loved when taken care of and helped
by having mom be ready to take the gum from them instead of getting caught
up in what is fair. It may be that that little boy has had to deal with a
lot of unfairness in his life already.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< He was hypervigilant and would look everywhere for something of value.
So on a city street he would be picking things up like bird feathers, etc.
collect little rocks, feathers, leaves, or seed pods from the ground when we
were out of the house. She would give them to me to bring home. Other people
have written about it happening. I used to just take the stuff from her,
usually putting it in the front pocket of the food bag, and she would
sometimes want it later, but usually forget about the bits and pieces once
we were home.
I think collecting found stuff is a developmental stage. This might be an
issue of the extent of it. Perhaps some normal developmental things are
taken to extremes in kids with histories like your son.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
So on a city street he would be picking things up like bird feathers, etc.
>>>Jayn, attachment parented since birth, used to pick up treasures too and
collect little rocks, feathers, leaves, or seed pods from the ground when we
were out of the house. She would give them to me to bring home. Other people
have written about it happening. I used to just take the stuff from her,
usually putting it in the front pocket of the food bag, and she would
sometimes want it later, but usually forget about the bits and pieces once
we were home.
I think collecting found stuff is a developmental stage. This might be an
issue of the extent of it. Perhaps some normal developmental things are
taken to extremes in kids with histories like your son.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-It may be that that little boy has had to deal with a
lot of unfairness in his life already.=-
And he may feel the need to dole some back out?
If one of my kids is sick and pukes, or accidentally spills a drink,
or is invited to do something COOL and so I offer to pick up and put
away paints and glue and paper clippings, those things are cleaning up
after children out of love, and out of helping them have opportunities
to be better and to do fun things.
If one of my kids spit on the floor ten or twelve times, just to do
it, or poured a drink out on the floor on purpose and walked away, or
took out paints and cut up paper and poured glue on a plate and then
went to pick on a sibling or some other irritating thing, the cleanup
of those things would not be in NEARLY the same category.
Cleaning up after someone who has eaten a meal for sustenance is not
the same as picking gum up off the ground.
Picking up supplies after a child has wrapped a gift to mail away is
sweet. Picking up candy wrappers from a couch or living room carpet
isn't in the same category.
Help lovinging offered to someone who is doing her best isn't the same
as being abused by someone who's being expressive by being destructive
or inconsiderate. The message in those can be "I really don't care
about you, and I don't care if you don't like what I do."
"It's not fair" wasn't the best choice of words. "It's not right" or
"it's not good" or "it's not okay" or "I really don't like it" could
cover the same ground.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lot of unfairness in his life already.=-
And he may feel the need to dole some back out?
If one of my kids is sick and pukes, or accidentally spills a drink,
or is invited to do something COOL and so I offer to pick up and put
away paints and glue and paper clippings, those things are cleaning up
after children out of love, and out of helping them have opportunities
to be better and to do fun things.
If one of my kids spit on the floor ten or twelve times, just to do
it, or poured a drink out on the floor on purpose and walked away, or
took out paints and cut up paper and poured glue on a plate and then
went to pick on a sibling or some other irritating thing, the cleanup
of those things would not be in NEARLY the same category.
Cleaning up after someone who has eaten a meal for sustenance is not
the same as picking gum up off the ground.
Picking up supplies after a child has wrapped a gift to mail away is
sweet. Picking up candy wrappers from a couch or living room carpet
isn't in the same category.
Help lovinging offered to someone who is doing her best isn't the same
as being abused by someone who's being expressive by being destructive
or inconsiderate. The message in those can be "I really don't care
about you, and I don't care if you don't like what I do."
"It's not fair" wasn't the best choice of words. "It's not right" or
"it's not good" or "it's not okay" or "I really don't like it" could
cover the same ground.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
by his parents and then abused/neglected by
caregivers can learn to believe that he is bad,
and act according to that belief, even if the
current caregivers refuse to reinforce that belief.
the best a kid can do. And that takes us beyond the
scope of this list, except in the fact that I want to go
back and build those bonds of attachment, and
focus on the relationship. The kids had too many
bullies and too many "do it or ELSEs" in his life already;
I do not want to be another. I guess it begs the question
if such children can live an unschooly life, but it
seems others here are going successfully down that
path, so I am going to choose to be hopeful, and continue
to learn and deschool, and I guess if anybody wants
to respond further, maybe respond privately as perhaps
we are wandering too far off-topic?
helped.
kelly
>Well, yeah, maybe. A kid who has been rejected
> -=-It may be that that little boy has had to deal with a
> lot of unfairness in his life already.=-
>
>
> And he may feel the need to dole some back out?
by his parents and then abused/neglected by
caregivers can learn to believe that he is bad,
and act according to that belief, even if the
current caregivers refuse to reinforce that belief.
> Help lovinging offered to someone who is doing her bestBut in some cases, being destructive and inconsiderate *IS*
> isn't the same as being abused by someone who's being
> expressive by being destructive or inconsiderate. The message
> in those can be "I really don't care about you, and I don't care if
> you don't like what I do."
the best a kid can do. And that takes us beyond the
scope of this list, except in the fact that I want to go
back and build those bonds of attachment, and
focus on the relationship. The kids had too many
bullies and too many "do it or ELSEs" in his life already;
I do not want to be another. I guess it begs the question
if such children can live an unschooly life, but it
seems others here are going successfully down that
path, so I am going to choose to be hopeful, and continue
to learn and deschool, and I guess if anybody wants
to respond further, maybe respond privately as perhaps
we are wandering too far off-topic?
>That helps me to get it. Actually, all the responses have
> "It's not fair" wasn't the best choice of words. "It's not right" or
> "it's not good" or "it's not okay" or "I really don't like it" could
> cover the same ground.
helped.
kelly
jan
Kelly
I am new to this list, but not new to homeschooling or international adoption. I think you are correct that building bonds has to be a top priority. But in my experience children who have come from institutional settings needs lots of structure in the beginning to feel secure. It is easier for them to learn how to fit in if they have an idea what is expected of them in a consistent way.
Lots of love and understanding is really very important as well as lots of patience, but kids do need to know what is normal in the family as well. It is a delicate balance.
Jan
I am new to this list, but not new to homeschooling or international adoption. I think you are correct that building bonds has to be a top priority. But in my experience children who have come from institutional settings needs lots of structure in the beginning to feel secure. It is easier for them to learn how to fit in if they have an idea what is expected of them in a consistent way.
Lots of love and understanding is really very important as well as lots of patience, but kids do need to know what is normal in the family as well. It is a delicate balance.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: kelly_sturman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:33 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Chores and Littering
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-It may be that that little boy has had to deal with a
> lot of unfairness in his life already.=-
>
>
> And he may feel the need to dole some back out?
Well, yeah, maybe. A kid who has been rejected
by his parents and then abused/neglected by
caregivers can learn to believe that he is bad,
and act according to that belief, even if the
current caregivers refuse to reinforce that belief.
> Help lovinging offered to someone who is doing her best
> isn't the same as being abused by someone who's being
> expressive by being destructive or inconsiderate. The message
> in those can be "I really don't care about you, and I don't care if
> you don't like what I do."
But in some cases, being destructive and inconsiderate *IS*
the best a kid can do. And that takes us beyond the
scope of this list, except in the fact that I want to go
back and build those bonds of attachment, and
focus on the relationship. The kids had too many
bullies and too many "do it or ELSEs" in his life already;
I do not want to be another. I guess it begs the question
if such children can live an unschooly life, but it
seems others here are going successfully down that
path, so I am going to choose to be hopeful, and continue
to learn and deschool, and I guess if anybody wants
to respond further, maybe respond privately as perhaps
we are wandering too far off-topic?
>
> "It's not fair" wasn't the best choice of words. "It's not right" or
> "it's not good" or "it's not okay" or "I really don't like it" could
> cover the same ground.
That helps me to get it. Actually, all the responses have
helped.
kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On May 8, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
If you want gum, you have to dispose of it properly; I can't imagine
condoning a child dropping gum on the floor, even outdoors. Like
Sandra, I'd provide a piece of paper or tissue, and point the child to
the nearest trash can. That's a simple task -- the harder one of
cleaning gum off the sole of the shoe would fall to me.
Some of us grew up with "Every Litter Bit Hurts" ad campaigns, and the
Crying Indian commercial of "Keep America Beautiful":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM
Powerful propaganda when you're a kid <g> I sure as heck don't
litter; my purse and car double as trash receptacles now and then...
Nancy
> -=-> Has your son ever spit gun on the floor? Has he ever spit gumTo me, this is just so obvious it's surprising it needs to be said.
> on a
>> sidewalk at a park? On a lawn?
>
> -=-Yes, yes, yes, and yes. That is why I am asking the questions;-=-
>
> The reason it was worth asking is that some people jump to dire
> conclusions, or ask us if we let them eat M&Ms, what will we do when
> they're shooting heroin.
>
> If it were me, I would not give gum to a child who had spit it out
> that way. If they wanted gum, I would say "I'm afraid if I give this
> to you I'll end up having to pick it up, and that's yucky." (or the
> equivalent in your own common phrasing--not that very phrase, but
> I'd've said that, or "It's not fair that you chew the gum and I have
> to pick it up.")
>
> Then either they could pretend not to want the gum anymore, which is
> fine, or they could say please, or I'll pick it up, or whatever. Then
> I would (and I have, often) give them a kleenex or paper napkin, too,
> and say "keep this to put the gum in when you're done."
>
> Very occasionally one of my kids would drop trash, or set it down and
> it would blow away. I'd say "Hey, look," or "Could you get that,
> please?" and they would. It doesn't need to be a lecture about
> littering, but they did know that there were fines for littering. I'd
> read signs to them as a matter of course, about the rules of parks or
> whatever. Not every time, just if it was interesting or we were new
> to a particular park or town or situation.
If you want gum, you have to dispose of it properly; I can't imagine
condoning a child dropping gum on the floor, even outdoors. Like
Sandra, I'd provide a piece of paper or tissue, and point the child to
the nearest trash can. That's a simple task -- the harder one of
cleaning gum off the sole of the shoe would fall to me.
Some of us grew up with "Every Litter Bit Hurts" ad campaigns, and the
Crying Indian commercial of "Keep America Beautiful":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM
Powerful propaganda when you're a kid <g> I sure as heck don't
litter; my purse and car double as trash receptacles now and then...
Nancy
Robyn L. Coburn
> "It's not fair" wasn't the best choice of words. "It's not right" orThis is what I was getting at - not to suggest that repeatedly throwing gum
> "it's not good" or "it's not okay" or "I really don't like it" could
> cover the same ground.>>>>
on the floor was to be condoned, but that framing the information in terms
of "not fair" might not be as helpful.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com