Jimi Ann Vane

I have been thinking about something Pam mentioned in a post last week,
about how it's difficult for some to get past the "Christian" teaching that
children all are born with a "sin nature." (I know you didn't word it like
that, but I can't seem to locate that post -- correct me if I'm wrong.) I
personally do not believe that children are born bad -- how we could we
think that of such a sweet, cuddly baby?? But I felt I still needed to
clarify this more in my own thinking.

I've witnessed a family we know so distrust their children that the children
now do seem very dishonest, I believe partly because the parents never would
trust them to make wise choices on their own. They're always looking to
"catch" them misbehaving, and sure enough, as soon as the parents' eyes look
the other way, here's their chance. "FINALLY Mom and Dad aren't looking!
Let's give them what they expect!" They hover over those children like
eagles -- the Mom even admitted she'd been watching MY daughter for two
months!! "HEY!! Get away, you!" I felt like saying. I did say something
similar, but a little nicer. :) It made me feel really weird. She went on
to point out some ways she thought my daughter needed to pay more attention
to her daughter, and the like. I replied that I didn't think she needed to
be watched that closely -- she's almost 11 -- and we like to let her make
her own decisions about who to play with, etc., as long as she's not
purposely trying to exclude others at times when they're all together. Very
touchy situation. The children complain about this particular friend of my
daughter's, about her being so controlling and forceful. Just like the
mother. I am seeing how destructive it can be, and how self-defeating the
behavior is. The father said to us last night, "If you let the children
alone, they WILL misbehave. I've seen it myself. We've got to keep an eye
on the children at all times." I just sat there with my mouth hanging open,
thinking, "Oohhh, now I get it. THAT'S why your having such problems with
your children and they're so controlling of others." (The father wanted to
meet with my family and another family to discuss why his daughter feels
left out of things when they get together. The Mom sat there close to tears
wondering why the other children avoid her daughter at times and why
everyone doesn't embrace her). Well, I kind of got off on that -- let me
share a quote from a John Holt book that about sums it up for me, before I
confuse myself!

I found a quote from John Holt's book (I believe it's Patrick Farenga
writing), that sums it up so beautifully and helped me to understand it more
fully.

"For instance, the observation that children are "born kind" is not the same
as they're being born without need of any moral upbringing as they are
innately good. In our office I heard John talk angrily about people who he
felt belonged in jail, who were just "bad cats" (John's phrase for such
people), and children who were willfully bad in some pretty awful ways. He
didn't view all people as innately good; he didn't view all people as
innately bad, either. He simply wanted us to recognize that there is a
tendency toward kindness present in children to which they respond, and that
working with that tendency, rather than ignoring it, quashing it, or
distorting it, can make living and learning with children easier for us
all. The chances that good behavior, character, and morals will take root
in an atmosphere of kindness are much better than if we assume the worst in
children and use kindness only as a reward for good behavior, rather than
the norm for our relationships." (Teach Your Own, p. 85)

What a great insight. Jimi Ann


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Sandra Dodd

-=-The father said to us last night, "If you let the children
alone, they WILL misbehave. I've seen it myself. We've got to keep an
eye
on the children at all times." I just sat there with my mouth hanging
open,
thinking, "Oohhh, now I get it. THAT'S why your having such problems
with
your children and they're so controlling of others." =-

Years ago when my kids were about 2, 4, 7, thereabouts, there was a
campout, a medium-sized SCA event WAY far from any town. Nobody
besides us would be anywhere near.

We found a little canyon of sorts and declared it the "kid area" and
invited other families with kids to camp there. Keith set up a
platform we had, kind of a 2' high stage, for the kids to play on (so
they could stay out of rocks and cactus that that). We made a kids'
cooler, with all foods they could eat easily, and drinks. We had a
kids' first aid kit. We had toys that could pass for medieval toys.
We had ribbons on wands and toy swords and other fun things.
Sometimes the adults would be gone from camp for half an hour or an
hour, but the kids were set up to be fairly self-sufficient, and we
had planned not to micromanage them.

One family also had three kids; military family (same mom who wanted
to "discuss our relationship" a couple of years before that; they
eventually moved back to Alabama). Another family was more like my
kids, quieter, a little sullen, but not sneaky.

A childless woman in our camp, friends of everyone there, girlfriend
of one of my husband's squires, took me for a walk Saturday night,
after we'd been there a day and a half. We were on a dirt road in the
darkest dark, in west central New Mexico, not a light for 30 miles
except the fires from the camps behind us. That makes it easy to
remember that walk.

She apologized to me for having thought my kids were awful, because
she said she had thought the other family's kids were great, but when
she arrived in camp and went into her tent and could hear the kids
interacting, she said our kids were just the same as they would have
been if Keith and I had been there, and the other family's kids were
trying to persuade Kirby to do things they shouldn't and Kirby (one of
the oldest) was saying no, we're not doing that, and managing the
whole group and making sure the youngest kids were happy.

She said if she ever had kids she was definitely going to come and
talk to me about what we had done and how.

I used to babysit those other kids sometimes, and they were truly,
deeply over-controlled. And the dad would say "I better not ever see
you do that," and that's what he meant. He was telling them in plain
English that they could do it, as long as he didn't see it.

I sympathized with them, and would let them go a little crazy at our
house, but they were girl/boy/girl and the boy was quick and strong
and desperate to make ANY decisions, to have ANY moment of personhood,
of respect, of the smile of an adult even when he wasn't kowtowing to
every crazy "because I said so" demand.

He had NO reasons on earth to "be good," except to avoid his parents'
punishments.

My kids had no reasons on earth to "be bad." It made no sense to them.

Sandra



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Kris

When Lanora was about 7 we were friends with a family who was controlling
and distrustful of their children. One day we were outside calling for
Lanora and the friend's daughter who were quite a ways away from us, when
they didn't respond I just began to chat a bit and wait patiently for them
to move into ear shot (the grass was wet, I didn't want wet shoes and I was
in no hurry). I knew, without a doubt, that Lanora hadn't heard me or she
would have come.

We chatted and when Lanora wandered a bit closer I called again, she
immediately came (running even) with Becca following. The friend
immediately launched into accusations that they purposely ignored us, knew
we wanted to leave and pretended to not hear. Lanora looked at her like she
had just told her she was actually a hippopotamus and could speak martian.

Of course this was our final time socializing, since the friend was not
sorry even after I pointed out how inappropriate she had been. I tried, for
the last time, to illustrate that this attitude was telling Becca that she
could not be trusted. The sad part was that this woman's children WERE
sneaky; controlling too.

We each had what we expected; Lanora was honest and I would have trusted her
with anything. Part of this is how she was born but even with a second
child who wasn't as reliably honest, trusting him lead to more reliability
not less.

A child can always apologize for lying (especially if the parents have open
arms) but a parent can't take back an accusation; the can apologize but it's
still out there.

Kris

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Jimi Ann Vane <jimi.jane@...> wrote:

> I've witnessed a family we know so distrust their children that the
> children
> now do seem very dishonest, I believe partly because the parents never
> would
> trust them to make wise choices on their own.
>



--
A little Madness in the Spring Is wholesome even for the King. - Emily
Dickinson

I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com


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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I see this a lot on Facebook. Yes on Facebook.
I have local homeschooling moms, friends from school, friends from LaLeche, family members and unschooling friends.
One one side there is all this posting from the unschooling families about how wonderful their kids are and about spending time with them and how they love it.
On the other side ate the postings from the other group complaining about their kids, happy to be away from them and have their own time.
The other day one local homeschool mom posted:
" five year-old says it's Push Your Buttons Day today"

or stuff like

"wonders what it is about boys, sunshine, and a magnifying glass that makes such a powerful -- or is it irritating? -- combination"

While uschoolers are so in awe of their children and the wonderful things they do.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







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Ren Allen

~~-The father said to us last night, "If you let the children
alone, they WILL misbehave. I've seen it myself. We've got to keep an
eyeon the children at all times." ~~

The most mean-spirited, hateful children I ever saw were the children of strict Christian families. They were so controlled and filled with anger about being controlled, that they became instantly MEAN as soon as the parents were at least 100 feet away. I was shocked at some of the things I witnessed, until they noticed an adult was nearby.

My older boys were baffled by it and this was back before we went full-on unschooling. We quit hanging out with that group of course, in spite of some pretty nice families that also attended.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

k

>>>> The most mean-spirited, hateful children I ever saw were the children
of strict Christian families. They were so controlled and filled with anger
about being controlled, that they became instantly MEAN as soon as the
parents were at least 100 feet away. I was shocked at some of the things I
witnessed, until they noticed an adult was nearby. <<<<

>>>> My older boys were baffled by it and this was back before we went
full-on unschooling. We quit hanging out with that group of course, in spite
of some pretty nice families that also attended. <<<<

I grew up surrounded by all that. And vowed to get out. Biding my time.
Yes of course I was sneaky though I wasn't intentionally mean. My parents
have apologized for many things, and I agree with Kris that once the
accusation goes out, it hangs in the air... in my case I felt that
accusation for years after I had grown and left home. I am not bashing
Christians. It's too bad that the culture of Christianity often encourages
the very things spoken against by creating self-fulfilling prophecies.

Parents can easily fall into the trap of distrusting their children and
equating every person and every thing as full-blown evil, when the
scriptures only go so far as to say "there was none good." Not being good
is a long long way from all-out evil. I never have quite bought all the
haranguing about original sin as reflected in daily life. Sure there's such
a thing as full-blown evil and a huge reason for that is the lack of love
and integrity in the revolving door of generations of adults as they pass
through with the jaded baton of distrust to give the next generation. Oh
adults who are also very sneaky, with all those double standards that tend
to catch up in the least expected moments.

It's so much easier and happier and freer to be honest with ourselves and
see straight. To avoid exaggerations and maligning. To let our yes be yes
and our no be no rather than dancing around and be titillated by all the
temptations to use knowledge and power to our advantage against our own
children no less. It's much more sane and virtuous and sweet to share
power, to encourage interdependence and celebrate the wonder of each new
person each new day. To cultivate gratitude for it all. Gosh my life is
much happier now that I'm a parent who decided to do those things, and drop
the baton that I received at a very young and tender age. I'm not in the
same race anymore anyway, right?

~Katherine


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Jenny C

>
> A child can always apologize for lying (especially if the parents have
open
> arms) but a parent can't take back an accusation; the can apologize
but it's
> still out there.


This is awesome! And you know, if kids are accused enough, they start
actually believing it themselves and living up to it! That's what I've
seen happen many times with friends of my children.

Playing nice, should apply to adults too!

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 9, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Jenny C wrote:

> And you know, if kids are accused enough, they start
> actually believing it themselves and living up to it!

Or, deciding if their parents already believe they're dishonest or
untrustworthy, why should they bother trying?

I remember being in a class in school where the teacher entered the
first day with a whole bunch of rules to prevent us from taking
advantage of her because we weren't to be trusted. (Obviously a
reaction to trust broken in the past by a few kids.)

To add data to the theory, I wish I could say how badly the class
behaved because of that, but I don't remember ;-) But I do remember
yanking away my benefit-of-the-doubt respect at that moment. And
there wasn't a motivation to maintain her respect in me by being
trustworthy since she obviously had none to begin with.

Joyce

krissy8444

"If you let the children
alone, they WILL misbehave. I've seen it myself.

He should have said, "If you let the children alone, they will misbehave. I've seen it IN MYSELF.
I think parents and adults look at their own lives to convince themselves that they, themselves aren't trustworthy because of their own mistakes. But really, that's how we learn - if we don't let the fear in after the lesson.

Kris

It was watching the outcome of children being raised with strict rules,
distrustful hovering and that "sin nature" mentality which caused me to look
for another way. I waited long enough to start raising kids that I was able
to watch how friend's kids responded to their parenting.

While the rebellion that controlling caused was obvious there was something
even more surprising. Even some of the strict parents had close bonds with
their adult children and the difference I noted was the INTEREST in their
kids. They played with them, ENOYED them and laughed with them. They had
way too many rules but the love was obvious.

I had no clue about unschooling then but I knew that I was going to enjoy my
kids and make sure they knew how awesome I thought they were. When I
started to learn about attachment parenting and unschooling it was like all
the missing pieces started falling into place.

Kris

"If you let the children
> alone, they WILL misbehave. I've seen it myself.
>



--
A little Madness in the Spring Is wholesome even for the King. - Emily
Dickinson

I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com


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Jenny C

>
> While the rebellion that controlling caused was obvious there was
something
> even more surprising. Even some of the strict parents had close bonds
with
> their adult children and the difference I noted was the INTEREST in
their
> kids. They played with them, ENOYED them and laughed with them. They
had
> way too many rules but the love was obvious.
>


This describes my own childhood! My parents were very conservative and
often strict, BUT, they were simultaneously very supportive and showed
they loved us kids daily.

Being a nice parent that truly cared for my kids, came somewhat
naturally because of this. Bucking the school system came relatively
easy for me too. Changing the dynamic of parenting, not seeking to
control my kids, but to live harmoniously with them, that was harder for
me! I still learn things everyday, how to do things better.

I didn't share with my parents, like my own teen does with me. That is
directly related to being my child's partner. I intentionally created a
relationship that wasn't based on a parent vs. child sort of dynamic,
and worked toward one that was an "US" dynamic that was often centered
on my child's needs first, and before my own.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I intentionally created a
relationship that wasn't based on a parent vs. child sort of dynamic,
and worked toward one that was an "US" dynamic that was often centered
on my child's needs first, and before my own.-=-

Now that my own three are 17, 20 and 22, each one of them has told me
at different times and in different ways how much that was appreciated.

Today is the birthday of Holly's boyfriend. I'm making food; he
opted to have his 25th birthday party here, at our house.

This morning I was talking to Marty's girlfriend, Ashlee. She's 22,
or 23. She's coming over at 5:30 to help me set up party food, even
though Marty won't be here, and even though she can't stay for the
party because she works at 8:30.

Sandra

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