jennifercroce37

In terms of unschooling how do you deal with safety issues and decrease the occurance of power struggles? For example, my 2 1/2 year old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being carried which is fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places like parking lots and some public places. I know unschooling focuses on not setting limits or saying you have to do something (i.e. I feel my daughter has to hold my hand if she is in a parking lot if she won't let me carry her and she won't sit in a stroller).

Another example (not really safety related) is that we were in the grocery store and they were giving out food samples. The food was something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let my 2 1/2 year old eat it on her own since it had the potential of making a huge mess (I didn't have anything to clean her with if she got it everywhere). I offered to assist her with eating it, but she of course wanted to do it herself. How do you address these types of issues so it isn't a power struggle?

Thanks,
Jen

Sandra Dodd

-=-In terms of unschooling how do you deal with safety issues and
decrease the occurance of power struggles? For example, my 2 1/2 year
old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being carried which is
fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places like parking lots
and some public places. I know unschooling focuses on not setting
limits or saying you have to do something (i.e. I feel my daughter has
to hold my hand if she is in a parking lot if she won't let me carry
her and she won't sit in a stroller).

-=-Another example (not really safety related) is that we were in the
grocery store and they were giving out food samples. The food was
something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let my 2 1/2 year old
eat it on her own since it had the potential of making a huge mess (I
didn't have anything to clean her with if she got it everywhere). I
offered to assist her with eating it, but she of course wanted to do
it herself. How do you address these types of issues so it isn't a
power struggle?-=-

The general response to both might be not to struggle and not to see
it as either you winning or her winning. Find a way to be her partner
and help her get what she needs and wants.

More particularly:

-=-my 2 1/2 year old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being
carried which is fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places
like parking lots and some public places.-=-

You could both hold onto a scarf or belt or two hands of a teddy bear.
You could let her walk and you walk behind her and not rush her.

-=- I know unschooling focuses on not setting limits or saying you
have to do something -=-

This isn't a good summary of the focus of unschooling. Unschooling
focusses on learning, and on the relationship that will help learning
happen easily.

There are MANY real-world limits. There don't need to be very many
arbitrary limits added to those. If someone stops saying "have to"
but continues to think it, that's not really progress, it's just being
sneaky. <g>

-=- I feel my daughter has to hold my hand if she is in a parking lot
if she won't let me carry her and she won't sit in a stroller). -=-

If you will rephrase these things before you post them, you might
catch some of your own fallacies of thought.
You have decided that you will not allow your daughter to do anything
except what you've chosen: Stroller, be carried or hold your hand.
"I feel..." isn't about feelings so much as it seems to be trying to
persuade us that you've considered every angle.

She could hold the hem of your coat, or hold onto your purse strap.
She could hold her older sister's hand.

Please don't think the people here are pulling this advice out of
their butts. When I had a 2 year old daughter I also had a 5 year old
boy and a 7 year old boy. We survived through many parking lots and
malls even though I only have two hands.

-=-. The food was something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let
my 2 1/2 year old eat it on her own since it had the potential of
making a huge mess (I didn't have anything to clean her with if she
got it everywhere). -=-

Never go anywhere with a two year old without the means to clean her up.
If you were on the way to a wedding or a portrait studio, stopping at
the store was a bad idea.
If you are NOT on the way to a wedding or portrait studio, why can't
she have a mess on her clothes? You have extra clothes in the car,
right?

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/2009 4:12:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jennifercroce37@... writes:

<<<For example, my 2 1/2 year old daughter would prefer to walk instead of
being carried which is fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places like
parking lots and some public places. >>>



I have one who was most adamant about not holding hands when he was not in a
mood to-right around 2 to 3 years old. We found alternatives. Sometimes he
liked riding in the shopping cart, but not often-that's rather confining. When
I could, I found (and still do, as he's still learning about traffic safety)
parking spots next to the building or walkway directly to the building, so
we don't have to cross the car-driving area. Sometimes, holding onto brother's
hand or onto the cart or a bag handle will work. Sometimes, if I don't have
to take the shopping cart to the car, we can hold hands and "race" with each
other. Sometimes he likes to ride on the end of the cart-either the far end
facing me or the near end between myself and the cart with our hands together
on the handle. Sometimes, he's willing to hold his brother's hand. Sometimes,
(like yesterday) he's agreeable that I hold onto the back of his shirt or
jacket. Sometimes I can carry him. Some days, more often when it first started,
but very rarely now, *nothing* seems to be okay. On these occasions, I stop
and kneel next to him and we talk about safety and big cars and soft bodies.
I think once or twice (in the beginning) we couldn't come to a compromise and
he had no inkling about watching for cars and I ended up carrying him
unwillingly to the car. Now that he's 4, it is easier for me to keep a watch out
for cars *for* him in those "nothing else will do" situations, as his movements
are much less erratic than when he was 2. I occasionally talk to him *and*
his brother about how high the backs of cars are and how drivers can't see
them when backing up, and to keep an eye out for that, too.

We talked about alternatives outside the moment-sometimes while waiting in
the checkout line, sometimes while we were putting on our coats, occasionally
when we were going into the store. It seemed to help if they had a fresh
reminder of what was going to happen when we left the store to go to the car.
Most all these ideas came from other unschooling parents on Yahoo groups when
*I* was at my wit's end about him not holding hands in the parking lot. :~) It
is *so* helpful, sometimes, to get some input from someone who's not in the
middle of the stress.

Peace,
De
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


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Jenny C

>
>>> In terms of unschooling how do you deal with safety issues and
decrease the occurance of power struggles? For example, my 2 1/2 year
old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being carried which is fine
most of the time, but I get nervous in places like parking lots and some
public places. I know unschooling focuses on not setting limits or
saying you have to do something (i.e. I feel my daughter has to hold my
hand if she is in a parking lot if she won't let me carry her and she
won't sit in a stroller). >>>

There are real limits on people though. My youngest has been almost hit
by a car in a parking lot 2 times. One time she was holding Chamille's
hand, her much older sister, and the other time she was walking very
near me. The thing is, other drivers don't always look for or see
little kids, and sometimes people just plain drive too fast in parking
lots. When Margaux was little we generally carried her out to the car
in the grocery cart, or piggie back rides or something else pleasant, to
avoid the whole issue altogether.

Chamille was my wanderer. When we went to public spaces, I had to be
super vigilant in watching her. She always wanted to walk, no carrying
for her! So, all of my attention went to keeping track of her, or we
avoided places where it was too difficult to do that.


>>> Another example (not really safety related) is that we were in the
grocery store and they were giving out food samples. The food was
something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let my 2 1/2 year old eat
it on her own since it had the potential of making a huge mess >>>

Keep clothing and wipes in your car, or most stores have bathrooms where
you could've done a quick wash of hands and face, and honestly, little
kids could care less about how clean their clothing is. I would've let
her eat it, maybe stopped right there so she could eat standing still,
or sit her in the cart to eat it so she wouldn't have to walk and eat,
which lots of people find difficult! Grocery stores usually will have
paper towels near the meat or produce too, so you can always swing by
that section to get some clean up gear.

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/4/2009 1:01 PM, jennifercroce37 wrote:
> In terms of unschooling how do you deal with safety issues and decrease the occurance of power struggles? For example, my 2 1/2 year old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being carried which is fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places like parking lots and some public places. I know unschooling focuses on not setting limits or saying you have to do something (i.e. I feel my daughter has to hold my hand if she is in a parking lot if she won't let me carry her and she won't sit in a stroller).
>

Do it more happily. Don't do it like you're restricting her - a change
in attitude might be possible. Don't take her to the grocery store or
other places where there will be parking lot problems. If you avoid it
as often as possible, then you won't have many power struggles. Don't
make a flat rule that she can't walk on her own in ANY parking lot -
look around and decide if it really is dangerous. Only restrict her if
there is actual real danger. Ask her to walk right beside you. Play a
walking game as you go to the car - you take a step, she copies yours.
If you take 3, she takes 3. It keeps you close together.
> Another example (not really safety related) is that we were in the grocery store and they were giving out food samples. The food was something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let my 2 1/2 year old eat it on her own since it had the potential of making a huge mess (I didn't have anything to clean her with if she got it everywhere). I offered to assist her with eating it, but she of course wanted to do it herself. How do you address these types of issues so it isn't a power struggle?
>

I'm kind of guessing you need to chill a bit. The samples they give in
the grocery store are not that big - she couldn't have made SUCH a big
mess, really. Couldn't you stand in one place while she made a little
mess and enjoyed her sample, then pulled out some tissue from your
purse, cleaned her and her surroundings up, and moved on - happily
enjoying her experience of the sample?

You are making it a power struggle because you are, in fact, trying to
exert power.

Rainn Wilson's quote of the month on Twitter (he is Dwight on "The Office).

"Where there is love, nothing is too much trouble and there is always time."

LOTS of what we have to say here on this list could be boiled down to
make more effort and give more of your time.

-pam

Su Penn

On Apr 4, 2009, at 4:01 PM, jennifercroce37 wrote:

> Another example (not really safety related) is that we were in the
> grocery store and they were giving out food samples. The food was
> something quite messy and I wasn't prepared to let my 2 1/2 year old
> eat it on her own since it had the potential of making a huge mess
> (I didn't have anything to clean her with if she got it everywhere).

Did anyone else have the means to clean it up? If the store was
putting out samples, did they also have napkins? Were there other moms
of young children around who might have had wipes in their purse? Did
the store have a bathroom? A drinking fountain? Cashiers often have
paper towels behind their counters because they use them to clean off
the scanners, and for spills on conveyer belts. In my experience they
will always give you one if you ask.

I often pull other nearby adults into problem solving at moments like
that. Sometimes directly: "She really wants a piece of that...but I
don't have any wipes with me. Do you happen to have any?" and
sometimes indirectly by saying in a clear and carrying voice to my
child, "Wow, you really want this...if only I had a napkin handy!" in
the hopes that a friendly nearby person will pipe up. They often do.

Of course, I am also a mom who deals with unexpected small messes by
wiping them up with the inside of my skirt or t-shirt, so this is not
an idea from the most fastidious end of the spectrum!

Su

mom of Eric, 7; Carl, 5 (who never liked to hold hands in parking
lots, by the way, so I always just shadowed him closely when he was
small); and Yehva, 20 months (who, come to think of it, also doesn't
like to hold hands...)

Robyn L. Coburn

>>>> In terms of unschooling how do you deal with safety issues and
> decrease the occurance of power struggles? For example, my 2 1/2 year
> old daughter would prefer to walk instead of being carried which is fine
> most of the time, but I get nervous in places like parking lots>>>

I want to say you go back to the principles which in this case are Safety
seemingly at odds with Independence. How can both of these principles be met
at the same time? One way that helps is to engage even a 2 1/2 year old in
the process. Rather than imposing your short list of solutions, ask her,
before she gets out of the car, what she would suggest. Discuss each
solution seriously with the pros and cons, even the silly to adult ears
ideas - even the "I cross by myself" ideas. It's OK to say, "Well I know
that would be fun for you and you would feel like a big girl, but I would be
feel scared that someone in a big car wouldn't see you by yourself. What
else could we do?"

Allow plenty of time. This is really key. Allow more time to discuss these
mindful parenting solutions - they do take longer than dictating and
expecting compliance. My experience is that they take longer than dictating
and then arguing too - but the discussions way more fun.

Sometimes people have demonstrated the danger of parking lots by doing
fascinating things at home like rolling over a soda can in the car, or
making a game (at home in the driveway) of inviting the child to sit in the
front seat and showing how hard it is to see someone little outside (like a
hide and seek).

In the food-sample-denial case the principles were something like
Convenience, or maybe Control. I don't think either of those are useful if
you are looking for unschooling principles. At my place Curiosity is going
to trump Convenience almost every time. I would have been so pleased to see
2 1/2 yo Jayn's willingness to try a new food that no amount of mess would
be the least problem.

Unschoolers learn to be aware of the hidden lessons that our children might
be inadvertently learning through our actions. I think it's part of both
deschooling and our personal development to gain this awareness. If the
unintended lesson is "Mommy's mean" or "Mommy doesn't trust me" or "Mommy
doesn't care what I want" then that inner voice is most likely going to
drown out the information that you are hoping would be heard like "Parking
lots are dangerous". The emotional reactions and emotional needs, especially
of littler folk, are going to override their intellectual knowledge much of
the time.

Unschooling takes spending time. Facilitating our own mindfulness with our
children can take pre-planning - like *always* carrying spare clothes in the
car, or always having crayons and a little sketch pad, or always carrying a
couple of snack bars in our purse, or keeping the sand toys in the trunk.
All kinds of little plans that mean we get to say "yes" over and over
without fears or worries.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Tammy Curry

>Of course, I am also a mom who deals with unexpected small messes by
>wiping them up with the inside of my skirt or t-shirt, so this is not
>an idea from the most fastidious end of the spectrum!

You mean there is an alternative to your t-shirt, jeans, skirt, etc? I keep a small baggie of wipes in my purse. My daughter could still care less if she has sticky hands or whatever else, my son on the other hand doesn't mind getting dirty but insists on being cleaned up ASAP. I also tend to take a couple of paper towels folded up as well. My son has never liked the sound of the electric hand dryers. They terrified him as a baby, I learned later once he was able to tell me it hurt it his ears. Though there have been times he can be seen following me out of the public restroom drying his hands on my bum, of course using his own is out of the question that would make them messy. But I have been a human napkin on more than one occasion whatever works. I do now tend to look for moms with two and under, they always have a diaper bag with them, if I am out of supplies. :)

As for walking through parking lots, crossing the street and a refusal to hold hands. Our solution was a game in parking lots. The cross walks are train tracks and we either hold hands and chug right along or the kids would grab the bottom of my shirt and hold tight while I made train noises. The 4 of us (hubby included) can be found in parking lots doing this even now. Crossing the street we explained that a car or truck is coming down the road they won't so see them, so they need to hold a finger so that they can be seen. I didn't grasp their hand I offered a finger or two, whatever their hand could fit around and let them hold on. We also talked about looking both ways before crossing. The freedom of being able to move from here to there on your own is amazing to little ones and there is nothing in this world faster than a 2 yr old on a mission of exploration. I do suggest a good pair of running shoes. My son learned to walk at 8 months old, he has
two speeds stop and go. So in a store that has buggies, I ask him if he wants to push the cart. He is just now tall enough to reach the actual handle but we got many a laugh going through the store with me guiding while his head was down and his arms on the legs it looked like I had an extra set of small feet. If we were lucky enough to be in a store that had race car buggies, police cars buggies, etc those have been the best, he gets to "drive". He loves to help when we are out and about so I do what I can to make sure there are things he can help with, such as putting items in the buggy, putting them up on the check out belt. He is fascinated with the U-Scan aisles we have in so many stores now.

Public places such as parks and such, when either of the kids were 2 I just prepared myself to be on the go constantly and stayed right behind them. So many things to look at, so many things to try and climb on. Good running shoes, two pair actually, expect for one to be muddy at any given time.


Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/

"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."

Rachel Carson




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k

>>>> She could hold the hem of your coat, or hold onto your purse strap.
She could hold her older sister's hand. <<<<

Karl still holds the cart in the parking lot and helps me push it where it
goes or rides in the cart playing on his Gameboy. He's 5.

~Katherine


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k

>>>> Did anyone else have the means to clean it up? <<<<

I have been known to break out a package of wipees in the store, use them on
the spot and pay for them in the checkout to take home or keep in the car.
I used to keep them in my purse actually when Karl was 3 and under (around
that age). :D In those days, my "purse" was a library bag full of Karl's
stuff ... clothes changes, books, trinkets, play items, food, etc. My frump
bag went wherever we went. I went to the library too but it rarely served
as a bag for library books.

~Katherine


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missalexmissalex

Instead of "carrying" we often offer to "fly" Katya (22 mos) to the edge of the parking lot, in a sort of modified Superman position. She lOVES it. Obviously there is a point at which your kid gets too heavy, and it's not for times when you have a million other things to carry, but it's a great win/win solution for us.

Thanks to all the other posters! I am going to try some of your other suggestions.

Alex
mom to Katya, 22 mos


--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 4/4/2009 4:12:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jennifercroce37@... writes:
>
> <<<For example, my 2 1/2 year old daughter would prefer to walk instead of
> being carried which is fine most of the time, but I get nervous in places like
> parking lots and some public places. >>>

serendipitymama

I think it could also help to voice your concerns and ask her if she has suggestions. Starting family problem solving at a young age is really helpful. She'll learn that you're willing to put time and thought into helping her get what she wants.

Brianna


--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> >>>> Did anyone else have the means to clean it up? <<<<
>
> I have been known to break out a package of wipees in the store, use them on
> the spot and pay for them in the checkout to take home or keep in the car.
> I used to keep them in my purse actually when Karl was 3 and under (around
> that age). :D In those days, my "purse" was a library bag full of Karl's
> stuff ... clothes changes, books, trinkets, play items, food, etc. My frump
> bag went wherever we went. I went to the library too but it rarely served
> as a bag for library books.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

Holding hands while walking with an adult is often VERY physically
uncomfortable for a small child. I don't think most adults realize this or take it into
account when they're thinking about how to keep their child safe. Try walking
around with one arm held straight up alongside your head for a few minutes.
(Seriously, try it. At the very least, hold your arm WAY up while you're sitting
here reading email. Watch the clock and give it at least a minute.)

Deborah in IL


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