Getting It
kmkjoy
When I decided to unschool my ds (10), I did so because it "felt" right, even though I knew I wasn't fully getting it. I knew that our eclectic schooling wasn't right or what we wanted for him. And so we began the process of deschooling. I think that I've been waiting for child led learning. I've been unsure of what to do or should I do anything, when he tells me he's only watching the TV because he is waiting for his schooled friends to get home.
What I'm coming to realize, through this list and Joyce and Sandra's sites (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the issue is me. I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from "grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.
I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?
I appreciate the wisdom of your collective experience. (why doesn't this have spell check, I'm a horrible speller)
~Kelly
What I'm coming to realize, through this list and Joyce and Sandra's sites (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the issue is me. I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from "grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.
I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?
I appreciate the wisdom of your collective experience. (why doesn't this have spell check, I'm a horrible speller)
~Kelly
Jennifer Croce
Thanks for your post Kelly, I am in the same situation so I'd also like advice on this. I am going to unschool my 6 year old in September and was going to use some structure and have been looking for the curriculum materials they use at her school. I have been learning from this list that even though I feel my approach is better than formal school it is still very controlled and will most likely not work. I am working on letting go and working with my child, not directing her or making her conform to my needs. It's a hard process, but I think the rewards are going to be great. I have already seen a difference in her using an unschooling approach..
Jen
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Jen
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Lyla Wolfenstein
When I decided to unschool my ds (10), I did so because it "felt" right, even though I knew I wasn't fully getting it. I knew that our eclectic schooling wasn't right or what we wanted for him. And so we began the process of deschooling. I think that I've been waiting for child led learning. I've been unsure of what to do or should I do anything, when he tells me he's only watching the TV because he is waiting for his schooled friends to get home.
What I'm coming to realize, through this list and Joyce and Sandra's sites (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the issue is me. I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from "grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.
I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?>>>
i feel funny giving advice, because we are relatively new to unschooling in our family, although not to the ideas, and we are still "in process" but then again i think everyone is! i have a 10 year old DS and we've been through many phases in the last 14 months of "deschooling" - he's not so social, so the waiting for friends hasn't been an issue, but he definitely went through a loooong period of just watching tv and playing video games and not being interested in much else, even if i WAS being interesting, interested, inviting, and engaging. in fact my invitations and engagement were experienced as pressure by him - pressure to be doing something different than what he was doing - yet another way in which he was "wrong" or needed fixing- even though i *tried* to be concious of not sending that message.
but eventually, he moved on from that and started taking an interest in things and expressing that he was bored and needed more activities, interests, passions. in my experience, the two things you mentioned are important - being interesting and also offering and engaging him in things (if he's receptive), but a third thing was even more important in our case - *following* my son. there were little, almost imperceptible ways in which i could choose to follow his interest and expand on it, and support it, or in which i could tamp down the interest and make it less likely to grow. for my son, *too* much excitement or overt expansion on an interest actually backfired into him losing interest. it was / is a delicate balance.
but key to it has been *my* willingness to be completely available, primarily on his timing, to follow his lead, in his way, with whatever takes his fancy. so - he has since gone through phases of interest in baking, and jewelry making (which he still does, and i've, over time, created avenues for him to expand this into a business - helped him make a web site, created a market for him to sell at, etc. - but first it was JUST a creative outlet and he had no interest in selling, growing it.) he also seems to be an "interest jag" type person - so he does one thing intensively for a while. we rode bikes every day for a few weeks last summer, for instance.
yesterday, my son, out of the blue, expressed a desire for more "routine" in his life. for him, this doesn't mean a schedule, and it certainly doesn't mean "having" to go somewhere he doesn't want to go, or an irreversable commitment, but what it means, he explained - is something to look forward to. so we pulled out our dry erase calendar board and together we decided on a few general things that would repeat every week in some form. thursdays would be "day trip day" - could mean just to our local amusement park for a couple hours - could mean to the coast or somewhere bigger/further. sunday would be "project" - he apparently wants to create a project to work on (with his dad available) that spreads out over weeks or longer - his current vision is a marble run/domino effect thing made of wood or metal piping.
i also put on there the two regularly occuring things every week that do not involve him but take me out of the house - so he can anticipate and not feel blindsided or out of the loop. and we put a few tv shows on too - when they air. that's ALL that's on there reoccuring. and each week he wants to put, in a different color, the things that are just for that week - a movie that he wants to see, or a one time activity that is happening.
this is just an example of what is happening in our lives NOW vs. where we were a year ago and how the deschooling process is intricate and long. just when i start to think - "ug, what are we doing?" he comes up with something that makes it clear we are still moving, flowing, and growing and not as stuck as it might appear.
anyhow - i don't know how long you've been unschooling/deschooling, but i was relieved to hear during a chat the other day that a year is not really that long. i think one of the main things that i needed to do is LET GO and TRUT and *then* i could be more genuinely interesting, and interested, and engaging - without a hidden agenda.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I'm coming to realize, through this list and Joyce and Sandra's sites (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the issue is me. I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from "grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.
I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?>>>
i feel funny giving advice, because we are relatively new to unschooling in our family, although not to the ideas, and we are still "in process" but then again i think everyone is! i have a 10 year old DS and we've been through many phases in the last 14 months of "deschooling" - he's not so social, so the waiting for friends hasn't been an issue, but he definitely went through a loooong period of just watching tv and playing video games and not being interested in much else, even if i WAS being interesting, interested, inviting, and engaging. in fact my invitations and engagement were experienced as pressure by him - pressure to be doing something different than what he was doing - yet another way in which he was "wrong" or needed fixing- even though i *tried* to be concious of not sending that message.
but eventually, he moved on from that and started taking an interest in things and expressing that he was bored and needed more activities, interests, passions. in my experience, the two things you mentioned are important - being interesting and also offering and engaging him in things (if he's receptive), but a third thing was even more important in our case - *following* my son. there were little, almost imperceptible ways in which i could choose to follow his interest and expand on it, and support it, or in which i could tamp down the interest and make it less likely to grow. for my son, *too* much excitement or overt expansion on an interest actually backfired into him losing interest. it was / is a delicate balance.
but key to it has been *my* willingness to be completely available, primarily on his timing, to follow his lead, in his way, with whatever takes his fancy. so - he has since gone through phases of interest in baking, and jewelry making (which he still does, and i've, over time, created avenues for him to expand this into a business - helped him make a web site, created a market for him to sell at, etc. - but first it was JUST a creative outlet and he had no interest in selling, growing it.) he also seems to be an "interest jag" type person - so he does one thing intensively for a while. we rode bikes every day for a few weeks last summer, for instance.
yesterday, my son, out of the blue, expressed a desire for more "routine" in his life. for him, this doesn't mean a schedule, and it certainly doesn't mean "having" to go somewhere he doesn't want to go, or an irreversable commitment, but what it means, he explained - is something to look forward to. so we pulled out our dry erase calendar board and together we decided on a few general things that would repeat every week in some form. thursdays would be "day trip day" - could mean just to our local amusement park for a couple hours - could mean to the coast or somewhere bigger/further. sunday would be "project" - he apparently wants to create a project to work on (with his dad available) that spreads out over weeks or longer - his current vision is a marble run/domino effect thing made of wood or metal piping.
i also put on there the two regularly occuring things every week that do not involve him but take me out of the house - so he can anticipate and not feel blindsided or out of the loop. and we put a few tv shows on too - when they air. that's ALL that's on there reoccuring. and each week he wants to put, in a different color, the things that are just for that week - a movie that he wants to see, or a one time activity that is happening.
this is just an example of what is happening in our lives NOW vs. where we were a year ago and how the deschooling process is intricate and long. just when i start to think - "ug, what are we doing?" he comes up with something that makes it clear we are still moving, flowing, and growing and not as stuck as it might appear.
anyhow - i don't know how long you've been unschooling/deschooling, but i was relieved to hear during a chat the other day that a year is not really that long. i think one of the main things that i needed to do is LET GO and TRUT and *then* i could be more genuinely interesting, and interested, and engaging - without a hidden agenda.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that I've been waiting for child led learning.-=-
I went to see what's in my unschooling collection about child led
learning, and found that on the first page of the search, the
references were all explaining away from the idea--it would appear in
quotes and then be discussed as a concept that's not so good.
http://tinyurl.com/c4r5wu
That might be a good place to look for now!
One of those references was the unschooling nest page:
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Unschooling starts off as what you don't do, but within a few months
it needs to become what you DO do.
-=- I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a
person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from
"grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.-=-
You want him to be a person in the world, I think. A real person. <g>
There are lots of people in the world, and you don't share with all of
them your finances or your chores.
Treating him as an adult isn't what unschooling is, either, though you
might be interested in The Continuum Concept.
http://sandradodd.com/toddlers
There's a link there. In extreme cases, the recommendation is against
toys or kid-stuff. But toys have an ancient lineage, and there's
clearly value in playing.
http://sandradodd.com/playing
-=-I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so
doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different
activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?-=-
Find interests you both might like. Watch TV with him. Find
interesting information about the shows he likes. If something comes
up in one of the shows and you have something around the house that
would tie in to that, maybe get it out. Leave it on the coffeetable.
http://sandradodd.com/connections
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
I went to see what's in my unschooling collection about child led
learning, and found that on the first page of the search, the
references were all explaining away from the idea--it would appear in
quotes and then be discussed as a concept that's not so good.
http://tinyurl.com/c4r5wu
That might be a good place to look for now!
One of those references was the unschooling nest page:
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Unschooling starts off as what you don't do, but within a few months
it needs to become what you DO do.
-=- I need to be more engaging, more interesting. I want my ds to be a
person in this family, not a child that needs to be kept apart from
"grown up" concerns, issues or tasks.-=-
You want him to be a person in the world, I think. A real person. <g>
There are lots of people in the world, and you don't share with all of
them your finances or your chores.
Treating him as an adult isn't what unschooling is, either, though you
might be interested in The Continuum Concept.
http://sandradodd.com/toddlers
There's a link there. In extreme cases, the recommendation is against
toys or kid-stuff. But toys have an ancient lineage, and there's
clearly value in playing.
http://sandradodd.com/playing
-=-I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so
doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different
activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?-=-
Find interests you both might like. Watch TV with him. Find
interesting information about the shows he likes. If something comes
up in one of the shows and you have something around the house that
would tie in to that, maybe get it out. Leave it on the coffeetable.
http://sandradodd.com/connections
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Lyla wrote "...we are still moving, flowing, and growing and not as
stuck as it might appear."
That is a great phrase, "moving, flowing, and growing."
-=- so - he has since gone through phases of interest in baking...-=-
When kids want to make cookies, they probably do NOT want to find a
recipe, go shopping, gather all the ingredients, blah blah blah to the
point where all the baking tools have been washed and put back in
their places. They *might* want to help break the eggs or measure
the flour or form cookies, or take them off a baking sheet with a
spatula or something fun and brief.
When parents try to turn a curiosity into a long forced-march through
an hour and a half of kitchen work, kids learn to not express curiosity.
Same with yard work. If a child asks to help in the yard or garden,
find a short, simple, fun thing. Smile and than him even if he only
does it for two minutes. He still learned. Don't shame him with the
idea that what he did wasn't worth anything because he didn't get up
early and sweat for two hours straight. If he wants to pull three
weeds, that's three weeds pulled!
Sometimes parents in such moments are overcome by the voices of the
relatives they had when they were little, and they start saying weird
things like "You're not any help," or "If you really want to help, why
are you quitting?" or "If you're not going to do it right, don't do it
at all."
If learning is your goal and not "discipline" or chores or training or
teaching, then you will see the learning in a kid even passing by long
enough to hand his dad a wrench or bring his mom a glass of ice water
when she's mowing. Help is help. Learning is learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stuck as it might appear."
That is a great phrase, "moving, flowing, and growing."
-=- so - he has since gone through phases of interest in baking...-=-
When kids want to make cookies, they probably do NOT want to find a
recipe, go shopping, gather all the ingredients, blah blah blah to the
point where all the baking tools have been washed and put back in
their places. They *might* want to help break the eggs or measure
the flour or form cookies, or take them off a baking sheet with a
spatula or something fun and brief.
When parents try to turn a curiosity into a long forced-march through
an hour and a half of kitchen work, kids learn to not express curiosity.
Same with yard work. If a child asks to help in the yard or garden,
find a short, simple, fun thing. Smile and than him even if he only
does it for two minutes. He still learned. Don't shame him with the
idea that what he did wasn't worth anything because he didn't get up
early and sweat for two hours straight. If he wants to pull three
weeds, that's three weeds pulled!
Sometimes parents in such moments are overcome by the voices of the
relatives they had when they were little, and they start saying weird
things like "You're not any help," or "If you really want to help, why
are you quitting?" or "If you're not going to do it right, don't do it
at all."
If learning is your goal and not "discipline" or chores or training or
teaching, then you will see the learning in a kid even passing by long
enough to hand his dad a wrench or bring his mom a glass of ice water
when she's mowing. Help is help. Learning is learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
-=- so - he has since gone through phases of interest in baking...-=-
When kids want to make cookies, they probably do NOT want to find a
recipe, go shopping, gather all the ingredients,>>
funny - he DID want to do those things
their places.>>
but i did all the cleaning for sure.
spatula or something fun and brief.>>
he wanted to do it ALL his way and i needed to be really careful not to give unwanted advice or intervention.
absolutely!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When kids want to make cookies, they probably do NOT want to find a
recipe, go shopping, gather all the ingredients,>>
funny - he DID want to do those things
>> blah blah blah to thepoint where all the baking tools have been washed and put back in
their places.>>
but i did all the cleaning for sure.
>> They *might* want to help break the eggs or measurethe flour or form cookies, or take them off a baking sheet with a
spatula or something fun and brief.>>
he wanted to do it ALL his way and i needed to be really careful not to give unwanted advice or intervention.
>>When parents try to turn a curiosity into a long forced-march throughan hour and a half of kitchen work, kids learn to not express curiosity.>>
absolutely!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in sodoing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different
activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?
>You could consider what you've done up till now, a deschooling process.
Engaging kids in activities is a good thing as long as you have willing
participants. What makes unschooling really work well, is bringing
things to your kids to explore and your kids to things.
If I'm interested in things, my kids may find them interesting too, in
the same way that when one of my kids are interested in things, I may
find them interesting too. I do think that the more things that I find
interesting, especially the things they like, the more learning happens
and the more engaging things are for everyone involved.
TV can be very engaging, yet I've found that almost always, my kids will
drop the TV for an engaging activity, and sometimes they are
simultaneous activities.
Jenny C
> When kids want to make cookies, they probably do NOT want to find acuriosity.
> recipe, go shopping, gather all the ingredients, blah blah blah to the
> point where all the baking tools have been washed and put back in
> their places. They *might* want to help break the eggs or measure
> the flour or form cookies, or take them off a baking sheet with a
> spatula or something fun and brief.
>
> When parents try to turn a curiosity into a long forced-march through
> an hour and a half of kitchen work, kids learn to not express
Yes, cooking has been turned into many a math lesson for homeschoolers.
While it's nice to note in a parent's mind, that a child is doing some
mathematics while measuring, to see how natural it can be to learn math,
I've seen more often, forced lessons in math through measuring.
(however, it's about the same kind of learning that happens in schools
on worksheets, so if one is counting for making portfolios or such, I'd
count it)
Cooking, for my kids, is all about the outcome! Pouring and mixing are
all good fun, but they like to eat the cookies more than all of that!
One day, they may want to double a recipe or half a recipe, but until
that day comes, making cookies, is still about making cookies for the
sake of having cookies and licking batter off of spoons.
Melissa Wiley
Sandra wrote:
off my feet for a while due to a postpartum complication. We had just put in
a vegetable garden (we're in southern California) and weeds were threatening
to overtake it, so I asked a couple of my kids if they would mind helping
out by picking 10 weeds each. The 8yo ran out to the garden & was back in a
flash, happily announcing she'd picked 11 weeds. The 10yo was outside for
almost an hour. When she came back in, she had a whole bouquet of weeds in
her hands. She spread them out on the table to show me what she'd found.
Instead of picking 10 weeds from the garden, she'd hunted all over the yard
for *10 different kinds* of weed. In the middle of showing each different
one to me & describing where she'd found it, she suddenly gasped and ran
back outside. Came back with yet another species--"I just remembered seeing
these in the side yard yesterday!" She was so excited and we had a great
time trying to ID them.
Sandra wrote:
Sometimes parents in such moments are overcome by the voices of the
relatives they had when they were little, and they start saying weird
things like "You're not any help," or "If you really want to help, why
are you quitting?" or "If you're not going to do it right, don't do it
at all."
<http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=625691595&ref=profile#/profile.php?id=625691595&ref=profile>
This is a really important insight. Some of those phrases you quoted made me
wince, or rather the memories they evoked did. Another one: "Never mind,
I'll just do it myself," with an exasperated sigh like the Little Red Hen.
(That story always bugged me because it seemed obnoxious of the Little Red
Hen to be going around trying to rope everybody into jobs she wanted done.
And then she plays that mean trick on them, "Who wants to eat this
bread?�Too bad! I'll eat it all myself!" I mean, who *doesn't* come running
at the scent of freshbaked bread? And who wants to eat a whole loaf all by
yourself?)
Lissa in San Diego
> Same with yard work. If a child asks to help in the yard or garden,I had a baby in January, and afterward I was under doctor's orders to stay
> find a short, simple, fun thing. Smile and than him even if he only
> does it for two minutes. He still learned. Don't shame him with the
> idea that what he did wasn't worth anything because he didn't get up
> early and sweat for two hours straight. If he wants to pull three
> weeds, that's three weeds pulled!
>
off my feet for a while due to a postpartum complication. We had just put in
a vegetable garden (we're in southern California) and weeds were threatening
to overtake it, so I asked a couple of my kids if they would mind helping
out by picking 10 weeds each. The 8yo ran out to the garden & was back in a
flash, happily announcing she'd picked 11 weeds. The 10yo was outside for
almost an hour. When she came back in, she had a whole bouquet of weeds in
her hands. She spread them out on the table to show me what she'd found.
Instead of picking 10 weeds from the garden, she'd hunted all over the yard
for *10 different kinds* of weed. In the middle of showing each different
one to me & describing where she'd found it, she suddenly gasped and ran
back outside. Came back with yet another species--"I just remembered seeing
these in the side yard yesterday!" She was so excited and we had a great
time trying to ID them.
Sandra wrote:
Sometimes parents in such moments are overcome by the voices of the
relatives they had when they were little, and they start saying weird
things like "You're not any help," or "If you really want to help, why
are you quitting?" or "If you're not going to do it right, don't do it
at all."
<http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=625691595&ref=profile#/profile.php?id=625691595&ref=profile>
This is a really important insight. Some of those phrases you quoted made me
wince, or rather the memories they evoked did. Another one: "Never mind,
I'll just do it myself," with an exasperated sigh like the Little Red Hen.
(That story always bugged me because it seemed obnoxious of the Little Red
Hen to be going around trying to rope everybody into jobs she wanted done.
And then she plays that mean trick on them, "Who wants to eat this
bread?�Too bad! I'll eat it all myself!" I mean, who *doesn't* come running
at the scent of freshbaked bread? And who wants to eat a whole loaf all by
yourself?)
Lissa in San Diego
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Some of those phrases you quoted made me
wince, or rather the memories they evoked did. Another one: "Never mind,
I'll just do it myself," with an exasperated sigh like the Little Red
Hen.
(That story always bugged me because it seemed obnoxious of the Little
Red
Hen to be going around trying to rope everybody into jobs she wanted
done.
And then she plays that mean trick on them, "Who wants to eat this
bread?Too bad! I'll eat it all myself!" I mean, who *doesn't* come
running
at the scent of freshbaked bread? And who wants to eat a whole loaf
all by
yourself?)-=-
YES. I loved fairy tales, Mother Goose and folktales as a kid, and
was always thrilled when one of our "readers" (school literature books
in elementary school) had folktales! I have a fair-sized collection
now, some from then, some from when my kids were little, and some from
before my time.
Two that I never liked were Rumplestiltskin and The Little Red Hen.
The messages they "teach" and what seems to be the moral of the story
baffled me in both cases. Their good guys were bad guys
When parents feel they have a very short time to turn their children
in to "responsible adults," the chance of a botch-job is huge. When
those same parents can decide rather to provide those same children
(if they haven't messed them up totally, I mean) with happy learning
opportunities, the cartoon sun comes up and the cartoon birds sing.
(Or in my back yard today between snow clouds, real sun and real
birds. <g>)
For those on the cusp of getting it, or about to beat another level
and move on to new unschooling perspectives, there's a collection of
those "Hey, I really get it!" or "I used to get it and now a TOtally
get it" moments here:
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
The bottom of that second page has some concrete ideas for new
unschoolers, too, by Pam Sorooshian.
Sandra
wince, or rather the memories they evoked did. Another one: "Never mind,
I'll just do it myself," with an exasperated sigh like the Little Red
Hen.
(That story always bugged me because it seemed obnoxious of the Little
Red
Hen to be going around trying to rope everybody into jobs she wanted
done.
And then she plays that mean trick on them, "Who wants to eat this
bread?Too bad! I'll eat it all myself!" I mean, who *doesn't* come
running
at the scent of freshbaked bread? And who wants to eat a whole loaf
all by
yourself?)-=-
YES. I loved fairy tales, Mother Goose and folktales as a kid, and
was always thrilled when one of our "readers" (school literature books
in elementary school) had folktales! I have a fair-sized collection
now, some from then, some from when my kids were little, and some from
before my time.
Two that I never liked were Rumplestiltskin and The Little Red Hen.
The messages they "teach" and what seems to be the moral of the story
baffled me in both cases. Their good guys were bad guys
When parents feel they have a very short time to turn their children
in to "responsible adults," the chance of a botch-job is huge. When
those same parents can decide rather to provide those same children
(if they haven't messed them up totally, I mean) with happy learning
opportunities, the cartoon sun comes up and the cartoon birds sing.
(Or in my back yard today between snow clouds, real sun and real
birds. <g>)
For those on the cusp of getting it, or about to beat another level
and move on to new unschooling perspectives, there's a collection of
those "Hey, I really get it!" or "I used to get it and now a TOtally
get it" moments here:
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
The bottom of that second page has some concrete ideas for new
unschoolers, too, by Pam Sorooshian.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/27/2009 5:49 AM, kmkjoy wrote:
you mean by "try to engage them" so I'm a little hesitant to agree to that.
If what you mean is to offer up a life with lots of interesting stuff to
do and see and experience, then yes.
You might put on music in the car that you think he'd like.
You might point out a construction site and take the time to stop and
watch the machines at work.
You might buy a new kind of fruit when you're shopping.
You might notice he likes certain video games and look up other similar
games and get one for him.
You might just tell him a joke you think would appeal to him.
You might record a tv show or movie you think he'd enjoy.
You might take him on a trip, stopping at all the national monuments
along the way, if that's something he'd enjoy.
You might volunteer together in an animal shelter.
You might go camping.
You might invite a friend over.
You might go to a baseball game.
You might buy really good colored pencils.
You might put a puzzle out on a table in the living room.
You might ask him to help you cut up apples for apple pie.
You might go for a walk together and listen to him tell you every single
little detail of a comic book or a movie or a video game.
Some people say "offer" and I picture them just asking a kid, "Do you
want to go for a walk and tell me about your new video game?" Doesn't
sound too appealing, put that way. Sounds like you're asking for a book
report.
Sometimes people come here and say, "Yeah but...my kid isn't interested."
Unschooling parents do "entice" - make new experiences seem appealing.
After a while, our kids are easily enticed because they have the
experience of knowing that we won't insist on continuing something that
isn't interest to them and that much of the time what we offer does turn
out to be fun.
-pam
> I'm not sure if I should do the things I'm interested in and in so doing be an example. Or should I try to engage him in different activites. Maybe best of all it would be a combination?Sounds like what I've done in my life but I'm not 100 percent sure what
>
you mean by "try to engage them" so I'm a little hesitant to agree to that.
If what you mean is to offer up a life with lots of interesting stuff to
do and see and experience, then yes.
You might put on music in the car that you think he'd like.
You might point out a construction site and take the time to stop and
watch the machines at work.
You might buy a new kind of fruit when you're shopping.
You might notice he likes certain video games and look up other similar
games and get one for him.
You might just tell him a joke you think would appeal to him.
You might record a tv show or movie you think he'd enjoy.
You might take him on a trip, stopping at all the national monuments
along the way, if that's something he'd enjoy.
You might volunteer together in an animal shelter.
You might go camping.
You might invite a friend over.
You might go to a baseball game.
You might buy really good colored pencils.
You might put a puzzle out on a table in the living room.
You might ask him to help you cut up apples for apple pie.
You might go for a walk together and listen to him tell you every single
little detail of a comic book or a movie or a video game.
Some people say "offer" and I picture them just asking a kid, "Do you
want to go for a walk and tell me about your new video game?" Doesn't
sound too appealing, put that way. Sounds like you're asking for a book
report.
Sometimes people come here and say, "Yeah but...my kid isn't interested."
Unschooling parents do "entice" - make new experiences seem appealing.
After a while, our kids are easily enticed because they have the
experience of knowing that we won't insist on continuing something that
isn't interest to them and that much of the time what we offer does turn
out to be fun.
-pam
kmkjoy
> You want him to be a person in the world, I think. A real person. <g>I guess what I was getting at was that I think the world treats children as inferior to adults. I want my son to understand that his ideas, feelings and thoughts are no less important than anyone else's. The only finances he's interested in is how much money he will have once the toothfairy comes.
> There are lots of people in the world, and you don't share with all of
> them your finances or your chores.
> Find interests you both might like. Watch TV with him. FindWould it then be appropriate for me to look up more on a topic we have seen and were interested in and then talk with him in a conversational way about what I found? If he then wants more info, I help him find it?
> interesting information about the shows he likes. If something comes
> up in one of the shows and you have something around the house that
> would tie in to that, maybe get it out. Leave it on the coffeetable.
I guess in the end, I'm confused as to where the line is between pushing and offering in a no presure way.
Kelly
Sandra Dodd
-=- I want my son to understand that his ideas, feelings and thoughts
are no less important than anyone else's.-=-
I think this is a bad thing for him to "understand," as it's false.
His thoughts on how much he wants to tooth fairy to leave him are not
as important as yours are (especially if he believes there's a tooth
fairy <g>).
It is VERY valid to give children lots of choices and freedoms.
It's not at all valid to claim or tell them or even to talk as though
his ideas, feelings and thoughts about money, home ownership and car
maintenance are as important as anyone else's. And it's just as
wrong for a mom to think her thoughts about how or whether he sits,
sleeps, plays games, picks his nose are just as valid as his. Some
things are more his business than his parents' (when parents are
trying to live generously with their children and let them have lots
of choices). Some things are way more your business than his
(whether to switch from an electric stove to natural gas, or whether
to use birth control, or whether it's more important to have the sewer
line repaired than to go to Disneyland (if there's not money to do
both).
-=Would it then be appropriate for me to look up more on a topic we
have seen and were interested in and then talk with him in a
conversational way about what I found? If he then wants more info, I
help him find it?-=-
Sure. If you can't decide whether it's appropriate, imagine whether
you would do it for an adult friend with a similar interest. That's
been a good tool for me to use.
-=-I guess in the end, I'm confused as to where the line is between
pushing and offering in a no presure way.-=-
If a young child asks "where do babies come from?" the first and best
answer is the shortest. "From inside their moms."
That might be all he wants to know for years. Or he might have
another question in a few seconds.
Be willing and available and open to a very short discussion or a long
one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are no less important than anyone else's.-=-
I think this is a bad thing for him to "understand," as it's false.
His thoughts on how much he wants to tooth fairy to leave him are not
as important as yours are (especially if he believes there's a tooth
fairy <g>).
It is VERY valid to give children lots of choices and freedoms.
It's not at all valid to claim or tell them or even to talk as though
his ideas, feelings and thoughts about money, home ownership and car
maintenance are as important as anyone else's. And it's just as
wrong for a mom to think her thoughts about how or whether he sits,
sleeps, plays games, picks his nose are just as valid as his. Some
things are more his business than his parents' (when parents are
trying to live generously with their children and let them have lots
of choices). Some things are way more your business than his
(whether to switch from an electric stove to natural gas, or whether
to use birth control, or whether it's more important to have the sewer
line repaired than to go to Disneyland (if there's not money to do
both).
-=Would it then be appropriate for me to look up more on a topic we
have seen and were interested in and then talk with him in a
conversational way about what I found? If he then wants more info, I
help him find it?-=-
Sure. If you can't decide whether it's appropriate, imagine whether
you would do it for an adult friend with a similar interest. That's
been a good tool for me to use.
-=-I guess in the end, I'm confused as to where the line is between
pushing and offering in a no presure way.-=-
If a young child asks "where do babies come from?" the first and best
answer is the shortest. "From inside their moms."
That might be all he wants to know for years. Or he might have
another question in a few seconds.
Be willing and available and open to a very short discussion or a long
one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Would it then be appropriate for me to look up more on a topic we haveseen and were interested in and then talk with him in a conversational
way about what I found? If he then wants more info, I help him find it?
>It depends on how much he wants to know and how long he wants to dwell
>
on that particular idea.
After a while it feels more authentic to interact with your kids in a
natural way. It's the same way you'd have a conversation with a good
friend or spouse. You wouldn't lecture your spouse about some cool
subject that you guys stumbled across together, you'd likely discuss it
and look things up until one or the both of you moved on to something
else.
That's how it is with kids, if you treat them as another human being,
rather than a "little" kid that is less than or subject to your
authoritarian adultness.
One of my favorite lines in the movie Matilda is "I'm smart your dumb,
I'm big your small, I'm right your wrong, and there's nothing you can do
about it." The two really big adult figures in the movie said that to
Matilda. She was smart enough to know differently. The dad also said
"When a person is bad, that person deserves to be punished.", then
Matilda repeats that to herself, with an emphasis on the word "person".
She reflects on that, because the dad had intended to say "kid", but
said "person" instead, which introduced the idea that a kid can punish
their parents when they are bad.
The idea that kids and adults are seperate and inequal in many
households has been a topic of conversation in our house many times
because of that movie. It's so pervasive in our culture that it takes a
complete shift in our thinking and attitudes to "get" how to be
authentic in our interactions with our kids.
Sandra Dodd
-=- The two really big adult figures in the movie said that to
Matilda.-=-
Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman might be happy to be referred to as
"really big."
-=The idea that kids and adults are seperate and inequal in many
households has been a topic of conversation in our house many times
because of that movie. It's so pervasive in our culture that it takes a
complete shift in our thinking and attitudes to "get" how to be
authentic in our interactions with our kids.-=-
Great book & great movie. I don't think we have it on DVD, but I do
have some amazon credit... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Matilda.-=-
Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman might be happy to be referred to as
"really big."
-=The idea that kids and adults are seperate and inequal in many
households has been a topic of conversation in our house many times
because of that movie. It's so pervasive in our culture that it takes a
complete shift in our thinking and attitudes to "get" how to be
authentic in our interactions with our kids.-=-
Great book & great movie. I don't think we have it on DVD, but I do
have some amazon credit... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Speech therapy should be fun - why is it so hard that he's unhappy?
Sounds to me like you need to stop the speech therapy or at least find a
new therapist.
You can find a speech therapist who will help you work with him, rather
than taking him in to a stranger. There isn't anything magical about
what the do there - you can do it and keep it fun and light.
-pam
Sounds to me like you need to stop the speech therapy or at least find a
new therapist.
You can find a speech therapist who will help you work with him, rather
than taking him in to a stranger. There isn't anything magical about
what the do there - you can do it and keep it fun and light.
-pam
On 3/27/2009 3:39 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
> That was a couple of months ago. The surgery was a success.
> Flash forward and now we are putting him in speech therapy three
> or four days a week for a half hour at a time. He doesn't like it.
> It is frustrating. And possibly it triggers deep fears. He is different.
> He is vulnerable. He may wonder, not at a conscious level, but
> at a deep, deep level, whether admitting his difference
> will leave him open to abandonment and rejection.
>
> Do I honor his wish to avoid the frustrating and
> possibly fear-provoking situation? He doesn't say
> he is afraid. He just says he doesn't like the work,
> because it is hard. Of course, if he is afraid, he
> is probably not consciously aware of it.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-For those on the unschoolingbasics list, please forgive the cross-
post.-=-
Please pretty please do not crosspost. Pick a list and ask the
question to the people on that list because you trust their ideas.
Or write one post for this list and another for another list. It's
very hard when there are two parallel discussions going on that way.
And this list is so busy that if you (anyone, not a singular "you")
have another place to post it and can't decide between the two, maybe
go with the less busy list.
-=- FWIW... and I don't
know what it *is* worth in my DS's eyes, I *did* stay with
him and care for him and made sure the nurses stayed
on top of providing pain meds, and fetched a VCR and
fun movies and stayed up all night watching them with
him because he couldn't sleep, and etc. -=-
That has got to worth A LOT to him and your relationship. That's
angel work, staying with someone in a hospital.
-=-I have a DS, 8 y.o., adopted this past July from China. -=-
He's very young.
-=-Flash forward and now we are putting him in speech therapy three
or four days a week for a half hour at a time. He doesn't like it-=-
I'd find a different speech therapist altogether. If you're in a
university town, maybe you could get a student to help him
inexpensively, or maybe even as a project for a class, so that it
could be done in fun and cutting-edge ways. (Maybe.)
-=-It is frustrating. And possibly it triggers deep fears. He is
different.
He is vulnerable. He may wonder, not at a conscious level, but
at a deep, deep level, whether admitting his difference
will leave him open to abandonment and rejection.-=-
Doesn't sound fun.
-=-Do I honor his wish to avoid the frustrating and
possibly fear-provoking situation? -=-
Luckily it's not all of it or none of it.
Can he play with younger kids so it's not so big a deal?
-=-The immediate family can understand him well. But he *REALLY*
wants to interact with the whole wide world, and his inability
to articulate clearly is holding him back. I have seen him
fighting back tears when other kids turn away from him.-=-
What about a two-for-one deal in which you go with him and take a
class in American Sign Language? (or if you're not in the U.S.,
whatever the sign language where you are is) He could play with deaf
kids, or grow up to be an interpreter if he really likes it.
-=-He can't make the connection that the work he is doing
there is going to open up opportunities to socialize. I can
articulate that connection, but he just *can't* "get it"
right now.-=-
Then it's too soon. You could wait a while.
-=I could wait until that realization comes to him, but
it might not come to him for several years, and in the
meantime, he will encounter the frustration of not being
able to make himself understood by most people on
a daily basis.-=-
MIGHT. Could.
Right now you have IS and For Sure.
-= I guess I just keep telling her
no. So maybe that part of it isn't so complicated after all.-=-
If you have to KEEP telling her anything, that's too complicated.
-=-It is hard to know what is the right thing to do:
take a break until DS comes to his own realization
that he needs speech therapy if he wants to communicate
with most people?-=-
Those aren't your only two choices.
-=-Or ignore his frustrations and fears and
make him continue to go to speech therapy, thus
giving him one more reason to believe that bigger, more
powerful people do not honor the needs of smaller,
less powerful people?-=-
Ignoring him and "making him" are both very bad.
-=-What would you do? Which option best serves
my son's interests and honors his needs?
-=-
"Interests" and "needs" in your post were mostly your interests and
needs projected on him, it seems. He's been with you less than a
year. Maybe he needs to sit in your lap and hear you sing with his
ear against your chest. Maybe he needs to swim. Maybe he needs a
bicycle or a skateboard or to go to Disneyland.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
post.-=-
Please pretty please do not crosspost. Pick a list and ask the
question to the people on that list because you trust their ideas.
Or write one post for this list and another for another list. It's
very hard when there are two parallel discussions going on that way.
And this list is so busy that if you (anyone, not a singular "you")
have another place to post it and can't decide between the two, maybe
go with the less busy list.
-=- FWIW... and I don't
know what it *is* worth in my DS's eyes, I *did* stay with
him and care for him and made sure the nurses stayed
on top of providing pain meds, and fetched a VCR and
fun movies and stayed up all night watching them with
him because he couldn't sleep, and etc. -=-
That has got to worth A LOT to him and your relationship. That's
angel work, staying with someone in a hospital.
-=-I have a DS, 8 y.o., adopted this past July from China. -=-
He's very young.
-=-Flash forward and now we are putting him in speech therapy three
or four days a week for a half hour at a time. He doesn't like it-=-
I'd find a different speech therapist altogether. If you're in a
university town, maybe you could get a student to help him
inexpensively, or maybe even as a project for a class, so that it
could be done in fun and cutting-edge ways. (Maybe.)
-=-It is frustrating. And possibly it triggers deep fears. He is
different.
He is vulnerable. He may wonder, not at a conscious level, but
at a deep, deep level, whether admitting his difference
will leave him open to abandonment and rejection.-=-
Doesn't sound fun.
-=-Do I honor his wish to avoid the frustrating and
possibly fear-provoking situation? -=-
Luckily it's not all of it or none of it.
Can he play with younger kids so it's not so big a deal?
-=-The immediate family can understand him well. But he *REALLY*
wants to interact with the whole wide world, and his inability
to articulate clearly is holding him back. I have seen him
fighting back tears when other kids turn away from him.-=-
What about a two-for-one deal in which you go with him and take a
class in American Sign Language? (or if you're not in the U.S.,
whatever the sign language where you are is) He could play with deaf
kids, or grow up to be an interpreter if he really likes it.
-=-He can't make the connection that the work he is doing
there is going to open up opportunities to socialize. I can
articulate that connection, but he just *can't* "get it"
right now.-=-
Then it's too soon. You could wait a while.
-=I could wait until that realization comes to him, but
it might not come to him for several years, and in the
meantime, he will encounter the frustration of not being
able to make himself understood by most people on
a daily basis.-=-
MIGHT. Could.
Right now you have IS and For Sure.
-= I guess I just keep telling her
no. So maybe that part of it isn't so complicated after all.-=-
If you have to KEEP telling her anything, that's too complicated.
-=-It is hard to know what is the right thing to do:
take a break until DS comes to his own realization
that he needs speech therapy if he wants to communicate
with most people?-=-
Those aren't your only two choices.
-=-Or ignore his frustrations and fears and
make him continue to go to speech therapy, thus
giving him one more reason to believe that bigger, more
powerful people do not honor the needs of smaller,
less powerful people?-=-
Ignoring him and "making him" are both very bad.
-=-What would you do? Which option best serves
my son's interests and honors his needs?
-=-
"Interests" and "needs" in your post were mostly your interests and
needs projected on him, it seems. He's been with you less than a
year. Maybe he needs to sit in your lap and hear you sing with his
ear against your chest. Maybe he needs to swim. Maybe he needs a
bicycle or a skateboard or to go to Disneyland.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> -=- The two really big adult figures in the movie said that toWell you're right about that. I was actually refering to their
> Matilda.-=-
>
> Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman might be happy to be referred to as
> "really big."
>
characters, not the actors, but I can totally see how it didn't come out
that way! Rhea Perlman wasn't the other person either, it was the
principal, Miss Trunchbull, and I'm not even sure who that person is
that played that part!
There are sooo many moments in that book/movie about child empowerment!
I didn't even mind the total schooly stuff, because, gosh, if you had to
go to school, Miss Honey would totally be the teacher to have!
We have watched that movie over a hundred times! I'm not exaggerating,
if anything, I've underestimated! Our VHS copy wore out and we had to
buy it on DVD! Many years back, before we bought the DVD version, we
ended up needing to replace our VHS player with a DVD player, and we
bought one with a VHS player in it too, primarily to watch Matilda (a
couple of other ones too, but that was always the favorite)!
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<YES. I loved fairy tales, Mother Goose and folktales as a kid, and
was always thrilled when one of our "readers" (school literature books
in elementary school) had folktales! I have a fair-sized collection
now, some from then, some from when my kids were little, and some from
before my time.>>>
I bet you would like the Sisters Grimm series. We are desperate for book 7
to come out May 1st - with almost as much eagerness as waiting for Deathly
Hallows.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
was always thrilled when one of our "readers" (school literature books
in elementary school) had folktales! I have a fair-sized collection
now, some from then, some from when my kids were little, and some from
before my time.>>>
I bet you would like the Sisters Grimm series. We are desperate for book 7
to come out May 1st - with almost as much eagerness as waiting for Deathly
Hallows.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/27/2009 5:18 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
being with other kids as he is from the therapist.
Maybe do the activities as fun things to do together, rather than "at
his request" in the sense of him requesting to "do therapy."
-pam
> I guess I just have to get comfortable with the fact thatIt might not last that long since he is probably learning as much from
> he may not make that request, and that in that case, he
> will continue to experience a lot of frustration around
> not being understood by potential friends.
>
being with other kids as he is from the therapist.
Maybe do the activities as fun things to do together, rather than "at
his request" in the sense of him requesting to "do therapy."
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/27/2009 6:17 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
would like to see him not have this to deal with, after all that he's
already had going on in his short life.
It reminds me of when some kids really want to be able to read, but they
simply aren't cognitively ready. It can be upsetting to them.
Unschooling parents might feel really bad for them, really wish they
didn't have to go through the frustration. We commiserate. And we try to
find ways to help them do what they want to do - we read to them and for
them and we protect them from other people who might shame them.
So - you could do the same. Be close at hand to speak for him when he
wants it, protect him from anybody who might shame him, and commiserate
with him. Reassure him that his speech is going to improve in the same
way we reassured our later readers that they would, when the time was
right for them, learn how to read.
Again, he is only 8. Lots of kids still have speech problems at that
age. I've seen kids play with other kids who don't speak the same
language at all, though, and seem to have a good time together. If his
friends are not being patient with him, maybe you could help him find
some kinder more patient friends. Maybe playing with just one friend
would work out a lot better for him.
-pam
> Then again, we all have the experience of dealing with thoseYeah, I can imagine how frustrated the poor kid must be and how much you
> people to a greater or lesser extent. I just wish that DS
> were dealing with it to a lesser extent.
>
> AHA! That's MY need! MY wish! WHOMP upside the head.
> I got it!
>
> Yes, he cries every day. For about five minutes. And then
> he moves on and has more fun. He is in the now. And
> that is where I can choose to be, too.
>
would like to see him not have this to deal with, after all that he's
already had going on in his short life.
It reminds me of when some kids really want to be able to read, but they
simply aren't cognitively ready. It can be upsetting to them.
Unschooling parents might feel really bad for them, really wish they
didn't have to go through the frustration. We commiserate. And we try to
find ways to help them do what they want to do - we read to them and for
them and we protect them from other people who might shame them.
So - you could do the same. Be close at hand to speak for him when he
wants it, protect him from anybody who might shame him, and commiserate
with him. Reassure him that his speech is going to improve in the same
way we reassured our later readers that they would, when the time was
right for them, learn how to read.
Again, he is only 8. Lots of kids still have speech problems at that
age. I've seen kids play with other kids who don't speak the same
language at all, though, and seem to have a good time together. If his
friends are not being patient with him, maybe you could help him find
some kinder more patient friends. Maybe playing with just one friend
would work out a lot better for him.
-pam
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> SLP *does* assign "homework" which is just repetitions of stuff
turning a creative art making action into something forever then associated
with the negativity of "I'm broken/ I need to be fixed".
It's the blowing action in that exercise that's important right? Getting him
to purse his lips firmly and strengthen those muscles.
Here are some blowing things that my dd, now 9, enjoys very much:
Blowing up balloons and then letting them fly around the house and chasing
them.
Blowing bubbles through a straw into bubble bath or soap suds (still at 9).
Blowing bubbles through a straw into milkshakes (normally frowned upon -
:p~~~~)
Blowing into a harmonica, kazoo or penny whistle.
and yes sometimes blowing paint for the specific purposes of making
something with those painted textures, at *her* instigation and desire.
Tell us some of the other exercises. I bet we can come up with at least
three other "just play" activities that our kids enjoy for their own sake,
that your son might find fun and would still be moving the muscles properly,
so maybe he need not go for his weekly reminder that he's still failing at
speaking right.
<<<< And for the HARD work of learning
justify the need for an expert and an expensive series of therapies? Babies
learning to talk don't learn how to move their palate as a special skill -
it is part of making sounds that is automatic and developmental. I wonder
how good it is to be moving the palate in isolation from making sounds. Are
you passing on to your son that this is "hard work" instead of something
that will flower naturally as he heals from his surgery and becomes more
accustomed to speaking with his new mouth in (maybe) a new language?
I'm making an assumption, that you can correct if I'm wrong, that he is also
learning a new language, English - or perhaps hearing English being spoken
all around him with different accents than he might have become used to.
That might be part of his slow pace in learning to make fully intelligible
sounds after his surgery.
What about singing, karaoke (we have a machine Granny gave us for Christmas)
or playing monsters or lions or dragons (roaring sounds to open the throat)?
<<<< It would
with practice. People do learn to write and paint with their toes if they
have lost their arms for some reason. (Also with their mouths) They learn
because it enables them to communicate with writing or drawing. If they were
being prevented from making marks until they had done a bunch of toe
strengthening exercises, I bet their progress would be slower than if they
were given the means to make marks and the opportunity to look at the
results. I bet their family members and close associates would be able to
read their foot written words sooner than strangers seeing it for the first
time.
Real effort need not be a negative if there is a personally meaningful real
reason to make the effort. All the good reasons that I might have for my dd
to learn something that is challenging to her are pointless if she doesn't
have a good reason of her own.
Kelly, if it were me, I would not continue with this therapy that is
distressing my child for the time being, and see how things go. You can
always return to therapy, perhaps with a different therapist, later. If you
do, involve your ds in the choice of therapist.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> she is doing with him during sessions: making art with Blo pensMy personal alarm bells go off at any type of therapy activity that risks
> and such. It is fun and light, but we usually don't do the homework
> because he doesn't bring it up and I am not going to force him
> to do it.>>>>
turning a creative art making action into something forever then associated
with the negativity of "I'm broken/ I need to be fixed".
It's the blowing action in that exercise that's important right? Getting him
to purse his lips firmly and strengthen those muscles.
Here are some blowing things that my dd, now 9, enjoys very much:
Blowing up balloons and then letting them fly around the house and chasing
them.
Blowing bubbles through a straw into bubble bath or soap suds (still at 9).
Blowing bubbles through a straw into milkshakes (normally frowned upon -
:p~~~~)
Blowing into a harmonica, kazoo or penny whistle.
and yes sometimes blowing paint for the specific purposes of making
something with those painted textures, at *her* instigation and desire.
Tell us some of the other exercises. I bet we can come up with at least
three other "just play" activities that our kids enjoy for their own sake,
that your son might find fun and would still be moving the muscles properly,
so maybe he need not go for his weekly reminder that he's still failing at
speaking right.
<<<< And for the HARD work of learning
> where the palate is and how to move it, she is doingIs it genuinely "hard" work? Or are you being told it is hard work to
> things like this: they each take a blue popsicle and each
> use it to paint their own palate blue. Then they use flashlights
> and mirrors to watch as they try to open and close their
> palates. DS is very successful at the actual activities...>>>>
justify the need for an expert and an expensive series of therapies? Babies
learning to talk don't learn how to move their palate as a special skill -
it is part of making sounds that is automatic and developmental. I wonder
how good it is to be moving the palate in isolation from making sounds. Are
you passing on to your son that this is "hard work" instead of something
that will flower naturally as he heals from his surgery and becomes more
accustomed to speaking with his new mouth in (maybe) a new language?
I'm making an assumption, that you can correct if I'm wrong, that he is also
learning a new language, English - or perhaps hearing English being spoken
all around him with different accents than he might have become used to.
That might be part of his slow pace in learning to make fully intelligible
sounds after his surgery.
What about singing, karaoke (we have a machine Granny gave us for Christmas)
or playing monsters or lions or dragons (roaring sounds to open the throat)?
<<<< It would
> be like me trying to learn to write neatly using my toes. Sure, IYou could consider it work. Or you could consider it fun that would improve
> could learn, but it would take real effort. >>>>
with practice. People do learn to write and paint with their toes if they
have lost their arms for some reason. (Also with their mouths) They learn
because it enables them to communicate with writing or drawing. If they were
being prevented from making marks until they had done a bunch of toe
strengthening exercises, I bet their progress would be slower than if they
were given the means to make marks and the opportunity to look at the
results. I bet their family members and close associates would be able to
read their foot written words sooner than strangers seeing it for the first
time.
Real effort need not be a negative if there is a personally meaningful real
reason to make the effort. All the good reasons that I might have for my dd
to learn something that is challenging to her are pointless if she doesn't
have a good reason of her own.
Kelly, if it were me, I would not continue with this therapy that is
distressing my child for the time being, and see how things go. You can
always return to therapy, perhaps with a different therapist, later. If you
do, involve your ds in the choice of therapist.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is just so hard seeing this naturally
gregarious, funny, wry kid being ignored by people who
won't take the time to understand his really amazing
insights. -=-
Harder than speech therapy and fear?
I had a thought overnight.
If he's "therapized" into speaking better, he might be convinced that
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
Holly didn't have "r" when she was six or so (maybe seven; the story
will be in archives somewhere from that time, maybe). She wanted
speech therapy. I said it would come around. She pressed. I took
a speech therapist friend to dinner and Holly went. She gave us some
ideas. She loaned us a game that might help with R. Another speech
therapist friend was at a music party we went to and she and Holly
went into the kitchen for a while to get food for people and she told
Holly a couple of things about the way people's mouths are shaped on
the inside and the places tongues touch to make sounds. Nothing
deep; no test; no fingers in the mouth.
So Holly thought about it and practiced on her own, and asked me "Does
'room' have an R in it?" The best little practice tool she had was
"Roger Rabbit's buried treasure." She would say that to herself
sometimes, listening to see if her "r" was getting better.
And one thing I knew was that if she could read she would have made
faster progress. I also was sure that "faster progress" wasn't as
important to me as her learning to read in her own, natural way.
Her speech became clear and her reading blossomed, but not right then
that year. But she knew then and knows now that with just a little
help and with interested friends who will answer her questions, she
can work things out gradually on her own.
Maybe an occasional visit to a speech therapist (or different ones
different times) every couple of months would help. Ask them for
ideas and tricks, rather than offering to pay them to take
responsibility for seeing him through to perfection. That might take
the pressure off of everyone. Maybe ask this professor to recommend
one or two of his best students who need to make a little money, and
invite them over just to hang out, play cards or watch movies, and to
make suggestions you and your son could use on your own.
If he feels he did it himself in his own way, it will make other
things easier in the future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gregarious, funny, wry kid being ignored by people who
won't take the time to understand his really amazing
insights. -=-
Harder than speech therapy and fear?
I had a thought overnight.
If he's "therapized" into speaking better, he might be convinced that
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
Holly didn't have "r" when she was six or so (maybe seven; the story
will be in archives somewhere from that time, maybe). She wanted
speech therapy. I said it would come around. She pressed. I took
a speech therapist friend to dinner and Holly went. She gave us some
ideas. She loaned us a game that might help with R. Another speech
therapist friend was at a music party we went to and she and Holly
went into the kitchen for a while to get food for people and she told
Holly a couple of things about the way people's mouths are shaped on
the inside and the places tongues touch to make sounds. Nothing
deep; no test; no fingers in the mouth.
So Holly thought about it and practiced on her own, and asked me "Does
'room' have an R in it?" The best little practice tool she had was
"Roger Rabbit's buried treasure." She would say that to herself
sometimes, listening to see if her "r" was getting better.
And one thing I knew was that if she could read she would have made
faster progress. I also was sure that "faster progress" wasn't as
important to me as her learning to read in her own, natural way.
Her speech became clear and her reading blossomed, but not right then
that year. But she knew then and knows now that with just a little
help and with interested friends who will answer her questions, she
can work things out gradually on her own.
Maybe an occasional visit to a speech therapist (or different ones
different times) every couple of months would help. Ask them for
ideas and tricks, rather than offering to pay them to take
responsibility for seeing him through to perfection. That might take
the pressure off of everyone. Maybe ask this professor to recommend
one or two of his best students who need to make a little money, and
invite them over just to hang out, play cards or watch movies, and to
make suggestions you and your son could use on your own.
If he feels he did it himself in his own way, it will make other
things easier in the future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Blowing into a harmonica, kazoo or penny whistle.-=-
Kazoos only work if you hum. That might be therapeutic too (or
not)--the action of making a sound with a kazoo by the action it
takes. It's not technically humming, because the lips aren't closed,
but it's vocalizing in the throat the way humming works, only with a
kazoo in the lips instead of lips closed.
But yes, blow REAL stuff! Blow out candles. Make paper boats and
blow them across the table with a straw. Not "paper boats," but you
fold a strip of paper 90 degrees--a little strip like the size of your
finger, and fold the paper in half and set it on edge so it's like a
corner, and blow into the corner. You can race them on a table or
knock each others' off the edge.
You can do it at fast-food places while you're waiting for your order,
with half a straw paper or part of a receipt.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Blowing into a harmonica, kazoo or penny whistle.-=-
Kazoos only work if you hum. That might be therapeutic too (or
not)--the action of making a sound with a kazoo by the action it
takes. It's not technically humming, because the lips aren't closed,
but it's vocalizing in the throat the way humming works, only with a
kazoo in the lips instead of lips closed.
But yes, blow REAL stuff! Blow out candles. Make paper boats and
blow them across the table with a straw. Not "paper boats," but you
fold a strip of paper 90 degrees--a little strip like the size of your
finger, and fold the paper in half and set it on edge so it's like a
corner, and blow into the corner. You can race them on a table or
knock each others' off the edge.
You can do it at fast-food places while you're waiting for your order,
with half a straw paper or part of a receipt.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
If he's "therapized" into speaking better, he might be convinced that
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
____
Just another thought on this whole subject. The mom hasn't really said how extensive of a cleft or how much surgery was needed.
Speech therapy for a child with a cleft palate repair is usually so much more involved than for a child with just some articulation errors.?
While it's true that simple articulation therapy can often be done at home, this might not be the case with an involved cleft palate and lip repair.? I'm a speech language pathologist but this is not my area of expertise and I would definitely refer any child with a cleft to someone who is more specialized in this area.
It can involve multiple surgeries, a prosthetic palate, and even swallowing difficulties.? This may be something that initially needs a more intensive approach in a therapy setting because of medical issues.
Gail
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 9:16 am
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Getting It... When the Situation is Complicated
-=-It is just so hard seeing this naturally
gregarious, funny, wry kid being ignored by people who
won't take the time to understand his really amazing
insights. -=-
Harder than speech therapy and fear?
I had a thought overnight.
If he's "therapized" into speaking better, he might be convinced that
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
Holly didn't have "r" when she was six or so (maybe seven; the story
will be in archives somewhere from that time, maybe). She wanted
speech therapy. I said it would come around. She pressed. I took
a speech therapist friend to dinner and Holly went. She gave us some
ideas. She loaned us a game that might help with R. Another speech
therapist friend was at a music party we went to and she and Holly
went into the kitchen for a while to get food for people and she told
Holly a couple of things about the way people's mouths are shaped on
the inside and the places tongues touch to make sounds. Nothing
deep; no test; no fingers in the mouth.
So Holly thought about it and practiced on her own, and asked me "Does
'room' have an R in it?" The best little practice tool she had was
"Roger Rabbit's buried treasure." She would say that to herself
sometimes, listening to see if her "r" was getting better.
And one thing I knew was that if she could read she would have made
faster progress. I also was sure that "faster progress" wasn't as
important to me as her learning to read in her own, natural way.
Her speech became clear and her reading blossomed, but not right then
that year. But she knew then and knows now that with just a little
help and with interested friends who will answer her questions, she
can work things out gradually on her own.
Maybe an occasional visit to a speech therapist (or different ones
different times) every couple of months would help. Ask them for
ideas and tricks, rather than offering to pay them to take
responsibility for seeing him through to perfection. That might take
the pressure off of everyone. Maybe ask this professor to recommend
one or two of his best students who need to make a little money, and
invite them over just to hang out, play cards or watch movies, and to
make suggestions you and your son could use on your own.
If he feels he did it himself in his own way, it will make other
things easier in the future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
____
Just another thought on this whole subject. The mom hasn't really said how extensive of a cleft or how much surgery was needed.
Speech therapy for a child with a cleft palate repair is usually so much more involved than for a child with just some articulation errors.?
While it's true that simple articulation therapy can often be done at home, this might not be the case with an involved cleft palate and lip repair.? I'm a speech language pathologist but this is not my area of expertise and I would definitely refer any child with a cleft to someone who is more specialized in this area.
It can involve multiple surgeries, a prosthetic palate, and even swallowing difficulties.? This may be something that initially needs a more intensive approach in a therapy setting because of medical issues.
Gail
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 9:16 am
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Getting It... When the Situation is Complicated
-=-It is just so hard seeing this naturally
gregarious, funny, wry kid being ignored by people who
won't take the time to understand his really amazing
insights. -=-
Harder than speech therapy and fear?
I had a thought overnight.
If he's "therapized" into speaking better, he might be convinced that
learning is pain and takes professionals. The methods speech
therapists use could be used at home, occasionally, maybe for fun.
Holly didn't have "r" when she was six or so (maybe seven; the story
will be in archives somewhere from that time, maybe). She wanted
speech therapy. I said it would come around. She pressed. I took
a speech therapist friend to dinner and Holly went. She gave us some
ideas. She loaned us a game that might help with R. Another speech
therapist friend was at a music party we went to and she and Holly
went into the kitchen for a while to get food for people and she told
Holly a couple of things about the way people's mouths are shaped on
the inside and the places tongues touch to make sounds. Nothing
deep; no test; no fingers in the mouth.
So Holly thought about it and practiced on her own, and asked me "Does
'room' have an R in it?" The best little practice tool she had was
"Roger Rabbit's buried treasure." She would say that to herself
sometimes, listening to see if her "r" was getting better.
And one thing I knew was that if she could read she would have made
faster progress. I also was sure that "faster progress" wasn't as
important to me as her learning to read in her own, natural way.
Her speech became clear and her reading blossomed, but not right then
that year. But she knew then and knows now that with just a little
help and with interested friends who will answer her questions, she
can work things out gradually on her own.
Maybe an occasional visit to a speech therapist (or different ones
different times) every couple of months would help. Ask them for
ideas and tricks, rather than offering to pay them to take
responsibility for seeing him through to perfection. That might take
the pressure off of everyone. Maybe ask this professor to recommend
one or two of his best students who need to make a little money, and
invite them over just to hang out, play cards or watch movies, and to
make suggestions you and your son could use on your own.
If he feels he did it himself in his own way, it will make other
things easier in the future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> You can do it at fast-food places while you're waiting for your order,I was just thinking about straw paper when reading about excerises that
> with half a straw paper or part of a receipt.
>
one could do for blowing! I also thought about blowing on blades of
grass to make that high pitched wistle sound, or blowing across the top
of bottles or through a hole in cupped hands that are clasped together,
or spit wads blown from a straw. Each one of those activities would
require a different mouth motion to produce the desired outcome.
Kids learn by playing! Of course this could be done naturally without a
therapist! School professionals take something they consider drudgery,
like math, and try to make it fun by adding games and such. Outside of
that context, it could be just fun and games, no drudgery attatched.
The same could be applied to the speech therapist, calling the
excercises work and offering rewards. The reward is being able to speak
and be understood. All those excercises can just be fun and games,
without the drudgery attatched.
k
>>>> You can find a speech therapist who will help you work with him, ratherthan taking him in to a stranger. There isn't anything magical about
what the do there - you can do it and keep it fun and light. <<<<
When I had speech therapy it was short (only 2 or 3 weeks), and not
conclusively done and finished, but helpful.
My speech was better from those moments on. And I enjoyed what I learned
and did during those sessions.
Learning doesn't take place easily in discomfort and what he may actually
learn in therapy he doesn't want may not be things you want him to learn
about, like what others think one "has" to do.
Speech therapy is not deep stuff to learn or to do. It shouldn't be hard.
Maybe he just doesn't like the person doing the therapy. Or maybe he just
doesn't want to do it right now. Couldn't he wait and do speech therapy in
his own time? I had no therapy until I was about 10.
If someone is telling you there's a window of opportunity for him to get
this done, that theory has been debunked. Studies are finding that nerve
growth and cognitive development (in the absence of nerve disease or
degeneration) are possible throughout life.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If someone is telling you there's a window of opportunity for him
to get
this done, that theory has been debunked. -=-
With public school, the window is "hurry, because kids are mean," and
"hurry, because he'll be behind, get bad grades, and then even the
teachers are mean."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to get
this done, that theory has been debunked. -=-
With public school, the window is "hurry, because kids are mean," and
"hurry, because he'll be behind, get bad grades, and then even the
teachers are mean."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/28/2009 1:45 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
he really just wants to express that it is hard and wants you to help
him deal with it. Maybe, like the surgery, he's just making sure you
know it is hard so that you'll be sure to be there with him and comfort
him and all that.
I'm not sure if you said, before, but are you in the room with him
during the session?
It is sounding to me like you really feel like he needs this and needs
it now and that it would be wrong of you to not make it happen somehow.
Even given what Gail said, I still think you might be able to set it up
more comfortably for him - to go, say, once a week, and spend that time
with the therapist figuring out what you're going to work with him on
during the week. And also that you might, as his mom who knows what is
fun for him, be able to do some of the exercises in more fun and natural
ways. Can he sit in your lap there? Can one of his siblings do it with him?
-pam
> When I ask him why he doesn't like going, he just saysWould he actually choose not to go if he had the choice? I mean, maybe
> that it is hard, so he doesn't like it. I've replied, "I know it
> is hard. But I also hear you telling me that you really
> don't like when people won't take the time to figure out
> what you are saying, and by doing this, you are making
> it easier for other people to understand you."
>
> He just shrugs at that.
he really just wants to express that it is hard and wants you to help
him deal with it. Maybe, like the surgery, he's just making sure you
know it is hard so that you'll be sure to be there with him and comfort
him and all that.
I'm not sure if you said, before, but are you in the room with him
during the session?
It is sounding to me like you really feel like he needs this and needs
it now and that it would be wrong of you to not make it happen somehow.
Even given what Gail said, I still think you might be able to set it up
more comfortably for him - to go, say, once a week, and spend that time
with the therapist figuring out what you're going to work with him on
during the week. And also that you might, as his mom who knows what is
fun for him, be able to do some of the exercises in more fun and natural
ways. Can he sit in your lap there? Can one of his siblings do it with him?
-pam
k
Here's something to consider. If her son is supposed to learn from the
therapist, I am not quite sure why the mother couldn't also learn with him
and cut the sessions from 3 (or 4?) times a week to fewer, and do more with
him rather than it being so *much* therapy-from-the-therapist.
I can't imagine why it *must* be done -that- often anyway. I'm not the
therapist. Has the mother asked if that frequency is really essential and
what would a slower pace likely mean?
And has the therapist suggested a timeframe for this to end up?
Here's another thing: why is the mother asking about this if the therapy is
not a choice but absolutely necessary *right now* ??
It seems to me that therapy is a choice.
And if it is the unschooling mother's choice, why couldn't it be the
unschooling child's choice? He is young for therapy. But is he really so
young that he can't help in making the decision about this therapy? It
seems to me that he is trying to.
It seems that the absence of choice for therapy could be misconstrued as
absence of choice in other things too... if they're deemed important
enough. I would feel the same way if it were a life or death situation or a
situation that would definitely lead to permanent irremediable disability.
Has the mother asked if that's the case?
It's possible that more options may be had than appear at first glance.
Which would be a really great reason to bring the situation to a list. If a
mother isn't sure, and wants to be sure, some readers could come up with
good questions to ask for the purpose of finding better options, if that's
what's being looked for.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
therapist, I am not quite sure why the mother couldn't also learn with him
and cut the sessions from 3 (or 4?) times a week to fewer, and do more with
him rather than it being so *much* therapy-from-the-therapist.
I can't imagine why it *must* be done -that- often anyway. I'm not the
therapist. Has the mother asked if that frequency is really essential and
what would a slower pace likely mean?
And has the therapist suggested a timeframe for this to end up?
Here's another thing: why is the mother asking about this if the therapy is
not a choice but absolutely necessary *right now* ??
It seems to me that therapy is a choice.
And if it is the unschooling mother's choice, why couldn't it be the
unschooling child's choice? He is young for therapy. But is he really so
young that he can't help in making the decision about this therapy? It
seems to me that he is trying to.
It seems that the absence of choice for therapy could be misconstrued as
absence of choice in other things too... if they're deemed important
enough. I would feel the same way if it were a life or death situation or a
situation that would definitely lead to permanent irremediable disability.
Has the mother asked if that's the case?
It's possible that more options may be had than appear at first glance.
Which would be a really great reason to bring the situation to a list. If a
mother isn't sure, and wants to be sure, some readers could come up with
good questions to ask for the purpose of finding better options, if that's
what's being looked for.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]