Keep your family together! Be a happy family.
Sandra Dodd
I'm going to share two things I wrote back to a couple of people whose
posts I've rejected today.
One post was entitled "It's outrageous what judges do in this country!"
I wrote:
"This country" wouldn't apply to all the countries represented on this
list, and family law courts are different state to state, and even
judge to judge.
I would like for every post on the AlwaysLearning list to be about
unschooling, and about helping people unschool better. I would like
for the posts to be useful to as many people on the list as possible,
and by "useful," I mean to help make unschooling clearer and more
accessible to the readers.
=======================
Another was about a positive thinking site for teens--not unschooled
teens, who rarely in my experience need positive thinking pep-talks.
Unschooling pretty much both requires and produces positive thinking.
Unschooling, unlike some other kinds of homeschooling, nurtures
relationships.
This is fact and cannot be changed: Unschooling is a luxury.
Unschooling isn't easy, and it takes time. It takes ALL of your time
and energy to be a good unschooler. If parents don't agree on
unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent puts
none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
Any judge anywhere can require that the law be followed. That's their
job. There are compulsory education or compulsory attendance laws in
every country represented on this list, as far as I know. Nothing we
do or say here changes any laws. It can't and it shouldn't. Only
those who unschool really well have ANY hope of helping change the
laws in ten or twenty years by the fact of our grown children being
out there as examples of what natural learning can be.
Meanwhile, there is nothing to be gained whatsoever by trying to
insist that unschooling is any sort of "right." It isn't. It's a
luxury. Those who are married and want to continue to unschool need
to stay married.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posts I've rejected today.
One post was entitled "It's outrageous what judges do in this country!"
I wrote:
"This country" wouldn't apply to all the countries represented on this
list, and family law courts are different state to state, and even
judge to judge.
I would like for every post on the AlwaysLearning list to be about
unschooling, and about helping people unschool better. I would like
for the posts to be useful to as many people on the list as possible,
and by "useful," I mean to help make unschooling clearer and more
accessible to the readers.
=======================
Another was about a positive thinking site for teens--not unschooled
teens, who rarely in my experience need positive thinking pep-talks.
Unschooling pretty much both requires and produces positive thinking.
Unschooling, unlike some other kinds of homeschooling, nurtures
relationships.
This is fact and cannot be changed: Unschooling is a luxury.
Unschooling isn't easy, and it takes time. It takes ALL of your time
and energy to be a good unschooler. If parents don't agree on
unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent puts
none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
Any judge anywhere can require that the law be followed. That's their
job. There are compulsory education or compulsory attendance laws in
every country represented on this list, as far as I know. Nothing we
do or say here changes any laws. It can't and it shouldn't. Only
those who unschool really well have ANY hope of helping change the
laws in ten or twenty years by the fact of our grown children being
out there as examples of what natural learning can be.
Meanwhile, there is nothing to be gained whatsoever by trying to
insist that unschooling is any sort of "right." It isn't. It's a
luxury. Those who are married and want to continue to unschool need
to stay married.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>We have positive thinking pep talks some times! Sometimes we get down,
> Another was about a positive thinking site for teens--not unschooled
> teens, who rarely in my experience need positive thinking pep-talks.
>
> Unschooling pretty much both requires and produces positive thinking.
> Unschooling, unlike some other kinds of homeschooling, nurtures
> relationships.
>
it's a matter of hormones and chemistry and sunshine and boredom or not.
Our pep talks pretty much consist of "what will help you be happy right
here right now?", followed by "what can I do to help?".
There have been a lot of really unpleasant friend things in the life of
my older daughter. It's generally the cause of her unhappiness.
However, over the years, she's started to own her own happiness,
acknowledging that things can get her down, but she doesn't have to stay
there. I attribute that directly to unschooling and the focus on happy
respect and personal discovery.
Since I feel that it is part of my duty as a parent to promote and
create happiness, then naturally that will be a large part of our life!
I can't tell you how many parents don't see that as being a major goal
in parenting, it's a lot, and it's apparent when you get to know some of
the kids of those parents, and it creates a need for sites for teens
that give pep talks.
Chamille and I were talking about teen angst the other day. A certain
song brought it up. She said she liked the song but chose not to listen
to it anymore because it didn't create happy thinking and reminded her
of a time in her life when she was pretty unhappy. We talked a lot
about that, about how a lot of kids experience that at some point in
their teen lives, and that many of them never leave that place of
discontent. It was cool to see that she recognized that it was
something that she experienced but found a way to move beyond it. It
deeply bothers her that so many kids her age simply aren't happy.
krissy8444
If parents don't agree on
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
> unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent putsI realize I am taking this out of context of your message and your main point is that since unschooling is a luxury, you need to stay together as a couple...
> none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to share two things I wrote back to a couple of people whose
> posts I've rejected today.
>
> One post was entitled "It's outrageous what judges do in this country!"
>
> I wrote:
>
> "This country" wouldn't apply to all the countries represented on this
> list, and family law courts are different state to state, and even
> judge to judge.
>
> I would like for every post on the AlwaysLearning list to be about
> unschooling, and about helping people unschool better. I would like
> for the posts to be useful to as many people on the list as possible,
> and by "useful," I mean to help make unschooling clearer and more
> accessible to the readers.
> =======================
>
> Another was about a positive thinking site for teens--not unschooled
> teens, who rarely in my experience need positive thinking pep-talks.
>
> Unschooling pretty much both requires and produces positive thinking.
> Unschooling, unlike some other kinds of homeschooling, nurtures
> relationships.
>
> This is fact and cannot be changed: Unschooling is a luxury.
> Unschooling isn't easy, and it takes time. It takes ALL of your time
> and energy to be a good unschooler. If parents don't agree on
> unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent puts
> none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
>
> Any judge anywhere can require that the law be followed. That's their
> job. There are compulsory education or compulsory attendance laws in
> every country represented on this list, as far as I know. Nothing we
> do or say here changes any laws. It can't and it shouldn't. Only
> those who unschool really well have ANY hope of helping change the
> laws in ten or twenty years by the fact of our grown children being
> out there as examples of what natural learning can be.
>
> Meanwhile, there is nothing to be gained whatsoever by trying to
> insist that unschooling is any sort of "right." It isn't. It's a
> luxury. Those who are married and want to continue to unschool need
> to stay married.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/divorce
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
k
>>>> where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them stronglydisagrees about unschooling? <<<<
In lotsa conflict. Which isn't conducive to unschooling with confidence.
One of the biggest helps for us in that regard is reassurance along the way
about how unschooling *is* working in our family. Using specific examples
and something like an occasional progress report, either verbal or written
out. It might not be very obvious how unschooling works unless it's put in
schoolish terms at first, unfortunately. Deschooling doesn't start until
one *can* see what unschooling is and many people can't talk outside of
school lingo. So putting unschooling into educationese can begin bridging
the gap, or chasm, as the case may be. :)
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
>>>> where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of themstrongly
disagrees about unschooling? <<<<
It depends what the other parent does. If one insists on unschooling,
then there could be divorce and no unschooling ever. Unschooling can
be jumped into quickly only IF both parents agree or understand it or
want to try to understand it.
To move to it step by step, find ways to introduce more interesting
family activities so the other spouse gets lots of chances to see and
participate in natural learning.
The reason my kinda-recent analogy of yacht ownership is a good one is
that it's not the sort of purchase or commitment one partner in a
marriage can make without the other. Maybe a billionaire could buy a
yacht and tell his wife about it later, but for people even in the
millionaire range, it's just too big a deal for one person to do
without the knowledge and consent and cooperation of the other. And
it would probably be the first thing to go in a divorce settlement,
just as unschooling would be.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
- basic housing and transportation
We found ourselves looking for a new vehicle after Ed wrecked our truck in a snow storm 2 weeks ago. The damage didn't seem much to us but the insurance company said it was a total loss and paid us a small amount - it was a 2000 model but we took excellent care of it and it only had 78000 miles on it. We thought it would last us another 10 years. I really resisted another large monthly payment as I enjoyed the freedom of having no vehicle payment ;) I finally realized that I was keeping us in turmoil over what we could clearly afford because I was resisting change. Anyway - we both had to sign on a loan - it took both of us in agreement on what we wanted to harmoniously walk forward together. If I had begrudgingly given in I would have resented that monthly payment (vehicle) every time I paid the bill or every time I wanted to do something but could not afford it due to thinking it was Ed's fault because he insisted on the new vehicle. I even told Ed I just needed time and space to adjust and to please be patient with me - he gave me that time and space - trusting that I'd let him know when I was ready to move forward. When I was ready I let him know I was OK with it and we could sign the papers.
We're also in the middle of repairing the rot on our house - yea when it rains it pours - meaning new siding and 9 new windows. The house is only 15 years old but I won't go into that ;) just saying that too had to be a joint decision. At first we didn't think we'd have to replace windows - then Ed called me at work Tuesday and suggested I come straight home after work so he could show me the rotted windows and that we'd have to pick out windows. I would not have been happy if he had picked out windows without me. It needed to be a joint decision.
I definately would be an unhappy person (wife) if I drove up one day and there sat a new vehicle and basically a new house! Not that he could do it without my siganture on the loan papers but if he could, there would be resentment and always that feeling of mistrust. Because we made the decisions together (like we do with unschooling/parenting/partnering) we will pull together and enjoy it all together as a family.
Our 25th wedding anniversary is in June ;)
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We found ourselves looking for a new vehicle after Ed wrecked our truck in a snow storm 2 weeks ago. The damage didn't seem much to us but the insurance company said it was a total loss and paid us a small amount - it was a 2000 model but we took excellent care of it and it only had 78000 miles on it. We thought it would last us another 10 years. I really resisted another large monthly payment as I enjoyed the freedom of having no vehicle payment ;) I finally realized that I was keeping us in turmoil over what we could clearly afford because I was resisting change. Anyway - we both had to sign on a loan - it took both of us in agreement on what we wanted to harmoniously walk forward together. If I had begrudgingly given in I would have resented that monthly payment (vehicle) every time I paid the bill or every time I wanted to do something but could not afford it due to thinking it was Ed's fault because he insisted on the new vehicle. I even told Ed I just needed time and space to adjust and to please be patient with me - he gave me that time and space - trusting that I'd let him know when I was ready to move forward. When I was ready I let him know I was OK with it and we could sign the papers.
We're also in the middle of repairing the rot on our house - yea when it rains it pours - meaning new siding and 9 new windows. The house is only 15 years old but I won't go into that ;) just saying that too had to be a joint decision. At first we didn't think we'd have to replace windows - then Ed called me at work Tuesday and suggested I come straight home after work so he could show me the rotted windows and that we'd have to pick out windows. I would not have been happy if he had picked out windows without me. It needed to be a joint decision.
I definately would be an unhappy person (wife) if I drove up one day and there sat a new vehicle and basically a new house! Not that he could do it without my siganture on the loan papers but if he could, there would be resentment and always that feeling of mistrust. Because we made the decisions together (like we do with unschooling/parenting/partnering) we will pull together and enjoy it all together as a family.
Our 25th wedding anniversary is in June ;)
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Because we made the decisions together (like we do with unschooling/
parenting/partnering) we will pull together and enjoy it all together
as a family.
-=-Our 25th wedding anniversary is in June ;) -=-
Keith and I will have been married 25 years on March 31, this month.
Early on, before we were married, when I had a better job than Keith
did, but he had a house he was renting for $300 a month from his
parents (and later bought from them--still just his house and not
mine, which is fine with me), we lived together and shared money and
we had a deal not to spend more than $30 without checking with the
other person.
That didn't include groceries or things like that, but while I might
buy a $25 hand mixer or something, if I wanted to buy something
fancier or more expensive, I'd talk to Keith. It included clothes,
and shoes, and such.
Thirty years later, that figure has crept up, mutually. I remember
feeling nervous five years or so ago when I bid $300 on a microscope
on eBay. Keith bought a leather jacket for $190 I hadn't known about,
but he doesn't love it and is sending it back. I encouraged him to
keep it; it was on sale. But it doesn't fit him perfectly.
We're in our 50's. When we were in our 20's and 30's, we were very
careful with money. We still are, there's just more money, after so
many years. But I loved and was committed to Keith when he was
working crummy jobs, so I get to share the benefits of his having been
an engineer for over 20 years.
There are everyday courtesies that some people forget to use in
everyday relationships. Some people seem to think marriage means
never having to say you're sorry (or please or thank you). It's
unhealthy. It's what divorced people see in the rearview mirror, often.
I'm divorced. It's a long story, and we didn't have kids, and we
didn't marry for love. We married so two children (his brother and
sister) could stay in their own home after their mom died. Their dad
had died a couple of years before that. I had known the whole family
well for six years. It was a noble (and young and maybe foolish)
thing. There were joys and problems. There were more joys than
problems, and I wish things had gone differently. I wish I had known
more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parenting/partnering) we will pull together and enjoy it all together
as a family.
-=-Our 25th wedding anniversary is in June ;) -=-
Keith and I will have been married 25 years on March 31, this month.
Early on, before we were married, when I had a better job than Keith
did, but he had a house he was renting for $300 a month from his
parents (and later bought from them--still just his house and not
mine, which is fine with me), we lived together and shared money and
we had a deal not to spend more than $30 without checking with the
other person.
That didn't include groceries or things like that, but while I might
buy a $25 hand mixer or something, if I wanted to buy something
fancier or more expensive, I'd talk to Keith. It included clothes,
and shoes, and such.
Thirty years later, that figure has crept up, mutually. I remember
feeling nervous five years or so ago when I bid $300 on a microscope
on eBay. Keith bought a leather jacket for $190 I hadn't known about,
but he doesn't love it and is sending it back. I encouraged him to
keep it; it was on sale. But it doesn't fit him perfectly.
We're in our 50's. When we were in our 20's and 30's, we were very
careful with money. We still are, there's just more money, after so
many years. But I loved and was committed to Keith when he was
working crummy jobs, so I get to share the benefits of his having been
an engineer for over 20 years.
There are everyday courtesies that some people forget to use in
everyday relationships. Some people seem to think marriage means
never having to say you're sorry (or please or thank you). It's
unhealthy. It's what divorced people see in the rearview mirror, often.
I'm divorced. It's a long story, and we didn't have kids, and we
didn't marry for love. We married so two children (his brother and
sister) could stay in their own home after their mom died. Their dad
had died a couple of years before that. I had known the whole family
well for six years. It was a noble (and young and maybe foolish)
thing. There were joys and problems. There were more joys than
problems, and I wish things had gone differently. I wish I had known
more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
krissy8444
Maybe a billionaire could buy a
Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning to save the relationship?
The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(
> yacht and tell his wife about it later, but for people even in theLet's say that the unschooling non-believer parent agreed to unschooling possibly as a way to deal with whatever issues weren't working in school, but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or really understand what unschooling is....
> millionaire range, it's just too big a deal for one person to do
> without the knowledge and consent and cooperation of the other.
Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning to save the relationship?
The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> >>>> where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them
> strongly
> disagrees about unschooling? <<<<
>
> It depends what the other parent does. If one insists on unschooling,
> then there could be divorce and no unschooling ever. Unschooling can
> be jumped into quickly only IF both parents agree or understand it or
> want to try to understand it.
>
> To move to it step by step, find ways to introduce more interesting
> family activities so the other spouse gets lots of chances to see and
> participate in natural learning.
>
> The reason my kinda-recent analogy of yacht ownership is a good one is
> that it's not the sort of purchase or commitment one partner in a
> marriage can make without the other. Maybe a billionaire could buy a
> yacht and tell his wife about it later, but for people even in the
> millionaire range, it's just too big a deal for one person to do
> without the knowledge and consent and cooperation of the other. And
> it would probably be the first thing to go in a divorce settlement,
> just as unschooling would be.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Let's say that the unschooling non-believer parent agreed to
unschooling possibly as a way to deal with whatever issues weren't
working in school, but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or
really understand what unschooling is....
Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning to
save the relationship?
The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(-=-
There isn't a ship. There's a marriage, with children.
Someone who isn't persuaded yet that unschooling is worth the HUGE
amount of life-changing effort shouldn't be referred to an
"unschooling non-believer." Seriously. It sounds like "infidel."
-=- but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or really
understand what unschooling is....=-
"Isn't getting enough proof" is way too passive for this situation.
If one parent in a couple doesn't have persuasive evidence, that's the
fault of the other parent. If one parent doesn't have faith in the
other parent, there are relationship problems to begin with.
What this list can do is be here to help those who want to understand
unschooling better.
What this list cannot possibly begin to do is to guarantee unschooling
for anyone. Neither can anything or anyone else.
-=-Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning
to save the relationship?
What, seriously, is this supposed to mean?! "To save the
relationship"? You mean to care enough about your children to keep
your family together? Anyone who believes unschooling can exist in a
hostile divorce is delusional and will harm the children MUCH more
than school could have done.
-=-The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(-=-
If the relationship is sunk, unschooling probably is too. In a case
in which one parent never understood or supported it, it's not sunk;
it never floated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling possibly as a way to deal with whatever issues weren't
working in school, but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or
really understand what unschooling is....
Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning to
save the relationship?
The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(-=-
There isn't a ship. There's a marriage, with children.
Someone who isn't persuaded yet that unschooling is worth the HUGE
amount of life-changing effort shouldn't be referred to an
"unschooling non-believer." Seriously. It sounds like "infidel."
-=- but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or really
understand what unschooling is....=-
"Isn't getting enough proof" is way too passive for this situation.
If one parent in a couple doesn't have persuasive evidence, that's the
fault of the other parent. If one parent doesn't have faith in the
other parent, there are relationship problems to begin with.
What this list can do is be here to help those who want to understand
unschooling better.
What this list cannot possibly begin to do is to guarantee unschooling
for anyone. Neither can anything or anyone else.
-=-Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning
to save the relationship?
What, seriously, is this supposed to mean?! "To save the
relationship"? You mean to care enough about your children to keep
your family together? Anyone who believes unschooling can exist in a
hostile divorce is delusional and will harm the children MUCH more
than school could have done.
-=-The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:(-=-
If the relationship is sunk, unschooling probably is too. In a case
in which one parent never understood or supported it, it's not sunk;
it never floated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I see the parents as a couple when they decided to have children together. That's the commitment that I figure counts first. If one wants to unschool and the other doesn't than the unschooling ready parent needs to relax and not make a big issue out of it. You can be a supportive and loving and nurturing parent without being an unschooler. You can home-educate without being an unschooler. Your kids can be in school and still have an engaged and supportive family life. Losing a two parent home to divorce over the desire to unschool, that's totally cutting off their nose to spite your face.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: krissy8444 <Chris@...>
If parents don't agree on
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: krissy8444 <Chris@...>
If parents don't agree on
> unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent putsI realize I am taking this out of context of your message and your main point is that since unschooling is a luxury, you need to stay together as a couple...
> none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Let's say that the unschooling non-believer parent agreed tounschooling possibly as a way to deal with whatever issues weren't working
in school, but now isn't getting enough proof; won't read or really
understand what unschooling is.... <<<<
It just means that the burden of proof is on the person who wants to
unschool the children. To make it look good, work well, go as smoothly as
possible and so on.
This is not and very likely won't be the other parent's responsibility at
all. Not because of stubbornness (which may or may not be the case even
though it seems like it *is* the case) but because if a parent can't see
unschooling as truly viable, then they can't and they very likely don't see
the point of reading about something that seems silly. It's just like with
5 year old Karl, and putting some idea in front of him that he has no
interest in. At some point, hopefully early on, I realize that I could just
drop it.
Since I feel in my bones that unschooling principles matter, I live by them
and interact with others in the family using those principles. I think them
in my head a lot. I don't talk about unschooling to sound off like I used
to (thinking it would clear up matters if I did).... well, I don't sound off
at home. Any sounding off I do is online, but in real life it just sounds
fanatical and crazy to others. It worries people and makes it seem like my
focus is off center and not on point --on my child, my partner, my family.
I can talk about the principles way before I can get away with saying
"unschooling" this and "unschooling" that. And I talk about my principles.
Somewhat. Not a lot.
The most important thing is not talk but putting the principles into
action. First and foremost with one's partner in parenting. Give your
co-parent the same leeway to learn at their individual pace and to enjoy
doing whatever it is they love to do. Share with them stuff you come into
contact with that might build on what they already love. And it goes on
from there.
>>>> Would you go against what you now believe to be true about learning tosave the relationship?
The yacht or ship, seems sunk...:( <<<<
It doesn't have to go that far. We have been down the road through divorce
(not because of unschooling but for other reasons ... unschooling was used
in court me to make me look like a foolish irresponsible parent) and somehow
we miraculously managed to get back together. And this time around we're
doing pretty well, and we see the point --not of unschooling so much as-- of
viewing each member of the family as vitally important. We're much more
interested in success this time than in getting our points across.
It seems simple that a family is a unit of individuals. When it doesn't
function with that in mind, it tends to break down and cease functioning.
It doesn't always end in divorce. Sometimes families just devolve into
being disfunctional. (yuck)
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
and even if you can prove your kids are thriving in homeschooling.
Here is a case in the news:
http://wnd.com/ index.php? fa=PAGE.view& pageId=91397
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 4:33:52 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Keep your family together! Be a happy family.
I see the parents as a couple when they decided to have children together. That's the commitment that I figure counts first. If one wants to unschool and the other doesn't than the unschooling ready parent needs to relax and not make a big issue out of it. You can be a supportive and loving and nurturing parent without being an unschooler. You can home-educate without being an unschooler. Your kids can be in school and still have an engaged and supportive family life. Losing a two parent home to divorce over the desire to unschool, that's totally cutting off their nose to spite your face.
Schuyler
____________ _________ _________ __
From: krissy8444 <Chris@Headley. org>
If parents don't agree on
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here is a case in the news:
http://wnd.com/ index.php? fa=PAGE.view& pageId=91397
> http://www.justenou ghblog.com/ ?p=1316
>
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 4:33:52 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Keep your family together! Be a happy family.
I see the parents as a couple when they decided to have children together. That's the commitment that I figure counts first. If one wants to unschool and the other doesn't than the unschooling ready parent needs to relax and not make a big issue out of it. You can be a supportive and loving and nurturing parent without being an unschooler. You can home-educate without being an unschooler. Your kids can be in school and still have an engaged and supportive family life. Losing a two parent home to divorce over the desire to unschool, that's totally cutting off their nose to spite your face.
Schuyler
____________ _________ _________ __
From: krissy8444 <Chris@Headley. org>
If parents don't agree on
> unschooling and one parent puts all her time and another parent putsI realize I am taking this out of context of your message and your main point is that since unschooling is a luxury, you need to stay together as a couple...
> none, where will those parents be together as a couple?
But, where do you see the above parents as a couple if one of them strongly disagrees about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I got a side note. I'm bringing it back to the discussion, but
anonymously:
***************
Dear Sandra,
"If one parent in a couple doesn't have persuasive evidence, that's the
fault of the other parent. If one parent doesn't have faith in the
other parent, there are relationship problems to begin with."
Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?
Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.
There are great ideas on your website on many topics and I have tried
to use them...thank you for making them available.
**********************
-=Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.-=-
All the time, yes. Surely. Most of us WERE people who believed that
school was important, crucial, central to real life.
I liked the suggestion of not talking about unschooling but talking
about the principles and ideas behind unschooling. Being kind to help
children learn how to be kind, and making life rich and interesting
and peaceful so they can learn easily. One could cite Abraham Maslow
about that without even knowing or caring about unschooling.
If anyone has time and mood to google Maslow and could bring some
links here or send them to me, that would be great. The one I had
saved as a favorite isn't there anymore. I guess I need a Maslow's
Hierarchy of Needs page (links at least).
-=-Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?-=-
Well this is a great question, and has to do with the way individuals
communicate. I hope others will have good ideas, and I'll try to
collect them up and save them. Something to consider, though, is to
identify the ways in which one is NOT being persuasive, or is being
irritating, and then not do those things.
Going to conferences has been what made the difference for some dads--
seeing older unschooled kids. Being around other kids always helps,
so dads who coach or go to homeschooling get-togethers, or somehow are
out seeing homeschoolers and school kids side by side are persuaded by
what they see sooner than dads who never see children in the course of
their lives except their own children. Sometimes that causes a
situation where they're comparing their kids to an ideal imagined
child, or to the best-of moments co-workers talk about. Christmas
letters often talk about summer internships or camps, and science
awards and scholarships, but they rarely mention screaming fights,
running away, drug use or being picked up by the police. I got one
Christmas letter once that talked about an accidental pregnancy (a boy
had knocked up a girlfriend, and the parents admitted it in a
Christmas letter).
Don't try to persuade in a vacuum. Your words can't be the only
evidence.
Don't try to persuade in a marathon. Chose one thing to say and then
live life a while without saying any more. if it's true, your child
will show some of it and you can point at that, instead of just words
and "what-if."
At first it's saying "Other people's kids have..." but it can become
"Our children are..."
Not if you screw it up, it can't. But if you go carefully, maybe it
can.
Anyone who wants to re-interpret the questions above should, so that
the author doesn't have to out herself by clarifying. We can address
everything it seems she might have meant. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anonymously:
***************
Dear Sandra,
"If one parent in a couple doesn't have persuasive evidence, that's the
fault of the other parent. If one parent doesn't have faith in the
other parent, there are relationship problems to begin with."
Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?
Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.
There are great ideas on your website on many topics and I have tried
to use them...thank you for making them available.
**********************
-=Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.-=-
All the time, yes. Surely. Most of us WERE people who believed that
school was important, crucial, central to real life.
I liked the suggestion of not talking about unschooling but talking
about the principles and ideas behind unschooling. Being kind to help
children learn how to be kind, and making life rich and interesting
and peaceful so they can learn easily. One could cite Abraham Maslow
about that without even knowing or caring about unschooling.
If anyone has time and mood to google Maslow and could bring some
links here or send them to me, that would be great. The one I had
saved as a favorite isn't there anymore. I guess I need a Maslow's
Hierarchy of Needs page (links at least).
-=-Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?-=-
Well this is a great question, and has to do with the way individuals
communicate. I hope others will have good ideas, and I'll try to
collect them up and save them. Something to consider, though, is to
identify the ways in which one is NOT being persuasive, or is being
irritating, and then not do those things.
Going to conferences has been what made the difference for some dads--
seeing older unschooled kids. Being around other kids always helps,
so dads who coach or go to homeschooling get-togethers, or somehow are
out seeing homeschoolers and school kids side by side are persuaded by
what they see sooner than dads who never see children in the course of
their lives except their own children. Sometimes that causes a
situation where they're comparing their kids to an ideal imagined
child, or to the best-of moments co-workers talk about. Christmas
letters often talk about summer internships or camps, and science
awards and scholarships, but they rarely mention screaming fights,
running away, drug use or being picked up by the police. I got one
Christmas letter once that talked about an accidental pregnancy (a boy
had knocked up a girlfriend, and the parents admitted it in a
Christmas letter).
Don't try to persuade in a vacuum. Your words can't be the only
evidence.
Don't try to persuade in a marathon. Chose one thing to say and then
live life a while without saying any more. if it's true, your child
will show some of it and you can point at that, instead of just words
and "what-if."
At first it's saying "Other people's kids have..." but it can become
"Our children are..."
Not if you screw it up, it can't. But if you go carefully, maybe it
can.
Anyone who wants to re-interpret the questions above should, so that
the author doesn't have to out herself by clarifying. We can address
everything it seems she might have meant. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-and even if you can prove your kids are thriving in homeschooling.
Here is a case in the news:-=-
No. Stop.
That case in the news is what I've rejected TWICE from posters on this
list. I don't want to talk about politics here, or a personal
situation in a particular jurisdiction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here is a case in the news:-=-
No. Stop.
That case in the news is what I've rejected TWICE from posters on this
list. I don't want to talk about politics here, or a personal
situation in a particular jurisdiction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
OOPS Sorry I sent that in.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 1:23:54 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Keep your family together! Be a happy family.
-=-and even if you can prove your kids are thriving in homeschooling.
Here is a case in the news:-=-
No. Stop.
That case in the news is what I've rejected TWICE from posters on this
list. I don't want to talk about politics here, or a personal
situation in a particular jurisdiction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 1:23:54 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Keep your family together! Be a happy family.
-=-and even if you can prove your kids are thriving in homeschooling.
Here is a case in the news:-=-
No. Stop.
That case in the news is what I've rejected TWICE from posters on this
list. I don't want to talk about politics here, or a personal
situation in a particular jurisdiction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
I like this chart:
http://meerasinha.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/800px-maslows_hierarchy_of_nee
dssvg.png
Wikipedia has a good page of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
(same chart too) I looked at several other links but like the wiki one best.
You can google those words (see subject) and get a ton of links!
I forget what this means, but I have a hard time meeting my own personal
basic needs (Physiological). I forget to eat and drink. Hours after I should
have eaten, I will be shaky and short tempered and wanting to eat NOW so
when I'm busy, I'll just grab whatever is quick (not always the best choice)
and go back to work. I don't have time to fix a meal and wait for it to be
done! Nor do I have the energy or patience to stand there and do it. It is a
rare occasion that I have dinner ready for my husband when he gets home from
work. He often brings take-out food or lately we've been cooking together
because he's been coming home earlier. I am amazed that I've been able to
feed my son, but he is a high priority for me. Often I will feed him and not
eat myself. I also keep lots of snacks on low shelves in the cabinets and he
helps himself when he gets hungry. A few times a week I'll make a Monkey
Platter and we'll both munch on that while we watch a movie or play games.
Snacking does me good, especially when I have good things to choose from. I
just need to remember to do it (and shop ahead for it!).
I go through phases of not sleeping much or having disturbed sleep. During a
big project or something, I can get by on 3 hrs of sleep but only for a
week, then I need to hybernate like a bear. I get headaches from not
drinking enough or breathing well. (I know this because I can sometimes help
them go away by breathing deeply, completely filling the lungs over and over
for a minute or two so more oxygen gets to the brain, or by drinking more
water.) I am more concerned with creativity, spontaneity,
self-actualization, working on ways to achieve those things more. Right now
doing a lot of reading about unschooling and trying to incorporate the
basics into my whole life and live by example. I'm in a mental phase.
Anyway, I also tend to forget to pay bills. Quite often. We've had several
2nd and final notices before I get around to paying. We have the money, I
just don't do it. Recently I admitted this to my cousin and she does the
SAME thing! What does this mean about us?!
If you want a little more on Maslow, this page has something nice at the
bottom:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/ma
slow.htm
Interesting quote from above link: Maslow believes that the only reason that
people would not move well in direction of self-actualization is because of
hindrances placed in their way by society. He states that education is one
of these hindrances.
Then they list 10 points educators can address, which seem kind of like the
tennants of unschooling, but are also quite relavent to everyone! I'll just
copy them here for those who don't get around to clicking on the link.
1. We should teach people to be authentic, to be aware of their inner
selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.
2. We should teach people to transcend their cultural conditioning and
become world citizens.
3. We should help people discover their vocation in life, their
calling, fate or destiny. This is especially focused on finding the right
career and the right mate.
4. We should teach people that life is precious, that there is joy to
be experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous
in all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.
5. We must accept the person as he or she is and help the person learn
their inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations we can
know what to build upon, what potentials are really there.
6. We must see that the person's basic needs are satisfied. This
includes safety, belongingness, and esteem needs.
7. We should refreshen consciousness, teaching the person to appreciate
beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.
8. We should teach people that controls are good, and complete abandon
is bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all areas.
9. We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and
grapple with the serious problems in life. These include the problems of
injustice, of pain, suffering, and death.
10. We must teach people to be good choosers. They must be given
practice in making good choices.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://meerasinha.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/800px-maslows_hierarchy_of_nee
dssvg.png
Wikipedia has a good page of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
(same chart too) I looked at several other links but like the wiki one best.
You can google those words (see subject) and get a ton of links!
I forget what this means, but I have a hard time meeting my own personal
basic needs (Physiological). I forget to eat and drink. Hours after I should
have eaten, I will be shaky and short tempered and wanting to eat NOW so
when I'm busy, I'll just grab whatever is quick (not always the best choice)
and go back to work. I don't have time to fix a meal and wait for it to be
done! Nor do I have the energy or patience to stand there and do it. It is a
rare occasion that I have dinner ready for my husband when he gets home from
work. He often brings take-out food or lately we've been cooking together
because he's been coming home earlier. I am amazed that I've been able to
feed my son, but he is a high priority for me. Often I will feed him and not
eat myself. I also keep lots of snacks on low shelves in the cabinets and he
helps himself when he gets hungry. A few times a week I'll make a Monkey
Platter and we'll both munch on that while we watch a movie or play games.
Snacking does me good, especially when I have good things to choose from. I
just need to remember to do it (and shop ahead for it!).
I go through phases of not sleeping much or having disturbed sleep. During a
big project or something, I can get by on 3 hrs of sleep but only for a
week, then I need to hybernate like a bear. I get headaches from not
drinking enough or breathing well. (I know this because I can sometimes help
them go away by breathing deeply, completely filling the lungs over and over
for a minute or two so more oxygen gets to the brain, or by drinking more
water.) I am more concerned with creativity, spontaneity,
self-actualization, working on ways to achieve those things more. Right now
doing a lot of reading about unschooling and trying to incorporate the
basics into my whole life and live by example. I'm in a mental phase.
Anyway, I also tend to forget to pay bills. Quite often. We've had several
2nd and final notices before I get around to paying. We have the money, I
just don't do it. Recently I admitted this to my cousin and she does the
SAME thing! What does this mean about us?!
If you want a little more on Maslow, this page has something nice at the
bottom:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/ma
slow.htm
Interesting quote from above link: Maslow believes that the only reason that
people would not move well in direction of self-actualization is because of
hindrances placed in their way by society. He states that education is one
of these hindrances.
Then they list 10 points educators can address, which seem kind of like the
tennants of unschooling, but are also quite relavent to everyone! I'll just
copy them here for those who don't get around to clicking on the link.
1. We should teach people to be authentic, to be aware of their inner
selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.
2. We should teach people to transcend their cultural conditioning and
become world citizens.
3. We should help people discover their vocation in life, their
calling, fate or destiny. This is especially focused on finding the right
career and the right mate.
4. We should teach people that life is precious, that there is joy to
be experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous
in all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.
5. We must accept the person as he or she is and help the person learn
their inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations we can
know what to build upon, what potentials are really there.
6. We must see that the person's basic needs are satisfied. This
includes safety, belongingness, and esteem needs.
7. We should refreshen consciousness, teaching the person to appreciate
beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.
8. We should teach people that controls are good, and complete abandon
is bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all areas.
9. We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and
grapple with the serious problems in life. These include the problems of
injustice, of pain, suffering, and death.
10. We must teach people to be good choosers. They must be given
practice in making good choices.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
Maslow's chart makes clear sense to me, too :)
The Wiki page is pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
there's a pretty version of the pyramid & good citings to his studies
Here's a great page, it reminded me again why I loved studying Maslow... he
had an almost sunny optimism when it came to the human condition, me too! :D
http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Humanistic_Psychology.asp
And this paper is interesting, too:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/maslow.htm
especially:
1. We allow people to be *authentic*, encourage an awareness of inner self
and an ear for their inner-feeling voices.
2. We model *transencion of cultural conditioning* and live as a world
citizen.
3. We support people on their very own *journey of discovery that leads to
their vocation, calling, fate, destiny, future*. This is especially focused
on finding a joyous path through life as a whole; including in vocation and
in relationships.
4. We live as though *life is precious, that there is joy to be experienced
in life,* and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous in all kinds
of situations, life is worth living joyfully in the present.
5. *We accept the person s/he is and work to understand the person's inner
nature. From real knowlege of *who someone is* comes the understanding of
what to build upon and what potential is really there.*
6. We see that a person's *basic needs are satisfied*. This includes safety,
a sense of belonging, and esteem needs.
7. We *live consciously*, modeling an appreciation for beauty and good
things in life, near and far.
8. We understand that arbitrary controls are not a one-size-fits-all
solution to conflict in life. Principles are important and far more
applicable to real life situations. From a life led by principles, one
understands intrinsic limitations and can easily follow them.
9. We model goals to transcend trifling daily problems; we grapple with the
serious problems in life as they naturally occur in our world. Injustice,
pain, suffering and death are discussed, examined and dealt with in an open,
honest environment with information at the appropriate level for the less
experienced people in the equation.
10. We understand that making good choices is a result of the practice of
making choices. We allow people to make choices with available information,
support and freedom, without our judgment.
a few are still sticky, like 8 & 10. That was pretty fun!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
The Wiki page is pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
there's a pretty version of the pyramid & good citings to his studies
Here's a great page, it reminded me again why I loved studying Maslow... he
had an almost sunny optimism when it came to the human condition, me too! :D
http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Humanistic_Psychology.asp
And this paper is interesting, too:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/maslow.htm
especially:
> Maslow states that educators should respond to the potential an individualAs an unschooler, I'd revise it to say:
> has for growing into a self-actualizing person of his/her own kind. Ten
> points that educators should address are listed:
>
> 1. We should teach people to be *authentic,* to be aware of their inner
> selves and to hear their inner-feeling voices.
> 2. We should teach people to *transcend their cultural conditioning *and become world citizens.
> 3. We should help people *discover their vocation in life,* their
> calling, fate or destiny. This is especially focused on finding the right
> career and the right mate.
> 4. We should teach people that *life is precious,* that there is joy to
> be experienced in life, and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous
> in all kinds of situations, it makes life worth living.
> 5. We must *accept the person* as he or she is and help the person
> learn their inner nature. From real knowledge of aptitudes and limitations
> we can know what to build upon, what potentials are really there.
> 6. We must see that the person's *basic needs are satisfied.* This
> includes safety, belongingness, and esteem needs.
> 7. We should *refreshen consciousness,* teaching the person to
> appreciate beauty and the other good things in nature and in living.
> 8. We should teach people that *controls are good,* and complete
> abandon is bad. It takes control to improve the quality of life in all
> areas.
> 9. We should teach people to transcend the trifling problems and *grapple
> with the serious problems in life.* These include the problems of
> injustice, of pain, suffering, and death.
> 10. We must teach people to be *good choosers.* They must be given
> practice in making good choices.
>
>
1. We allow people to be *authentic*, encourage an awareness of inner self
and an ear for their inner-feeling voices.
2. We model *transencion of cultural conditioning* and live as a world
citizen.
3. We support people on their very own *journey of discovery that leads to
their vocation, calling, fate, destiny, future*. This is especially focused
on finding a joyous path through life as a whole; including in vocation and
in relationships.
4. We live as though *life is precious, that there is joy to be experienced
in life,* and if people are open to seeing the good and joyous in all kinds
of situations, life is worth living joyfully in the present.
5. *We accept the person s/he is and work to understand the person's inner
nature. From real knowlege of *who someone is* comes the understanding of
what to build upon and what potential is really there.*
6. We see that a person's *basic needs are satisfied*. This includes safety,
a sense of belonging, and esteem needs.
7. We *live consciously*, modeling an appreciation for beauty and good
things in life, near and far.
8. We understand that arbitrary controls are not a one-size-fits-all
solution to conflict in life. Principles are important and far more
applicable to real life situations. From a life led by principles, one
understands intrinsic limitations and can easily follow them.
9. We model goals to transcend trifling daily problems; we grapple with the
serious problems in life as they naturally occur in our world. Injustice,
pain, suffering and death are discussed, examined and dealt with in an open,
honest environment with information at the appropriate level for the less
experienced people in the equation.
10. We understand that making good choices is a result of the practice of
making choices. We allow people to make choices with available information,
support and freedom, without our judgment.
a few are still sticky, like 8 & 10. That was pretty fun!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I liked the suggestion of not talking about unschooling but talking
> about the principles and ideas behind unschooling. Being kind to help
> children learn how to be kind, and making life rich and interesting
> and peaceful so they can learn easily. One could cite Abraham Maslow
> about that without even knowing or caring about unschooling.
>
> If anyone has time and mood to google Maslow and could bring some
> links here or send them to me, that would be great. The one I had
> saved as a favorite isn't there anymore. I guess I need a Maslow's
> Hierarchy of Needs page (links at least).
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someoneWell, since relationships are based on communication, should a spouse
> persuasive evidence....please?
> Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
> don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
> only way to succeed is to stay in school.
>
NEED to use persuasive evidence?
Sure, there are times when spouses need to agree to disagree, but it
seems that most things should and can be discussed. If one spouse
disagrees with something and has not given any thought to why, or why
their spouse disagrees, or refuses to think about something the other
partner feels strongly about, that alone should be something to discuss.
That, to me, would be disrespectful to the other partner. I don't think
spouses can truly stay together in the absence of respect.
My husband and I have fought about child rearing things, mostly that was
when we were brand new parents. We don't do that anymore. We've come
to an understanding about how to treat our kids and how to raise them.
That has largely been because of my embrace of unschooling and peaceful
parenting and just doing that. My husband was more one who was going to
leave that up to me and not really do anything proactive about it. He's
a very involved parent now that he's embraced that too. That's not to
say he wasn't involved before, just a different level and understanding.
I really think most parents try to do what is best for their kids, so
coming at all parenting talks from that frame of reference will lead
more towards being peaceful than not.
I don't parent at all like my sister and her husband do. They agree
with one another on how to parent and the kids can see that their
parents love each other and them. Honestly, it would be more harmful
for one of them to completely change their thinking about parenting and
create a rift between them that caused a divorce, even though I think
all of them would be healthier and happier if they didn't punish their
children.
Perhaps subtle shifts are better? No need to be persuasive if things
are subtle and gentle?
Sandra Dodd
I like your revisions, Diana.
I'd like to pile all these findings up for the next time someone could
use reading through that!
Thank you all very much for finding things (and those who haven't
found something but will later, too).
Sandra
I'd like to pile all these findings up for the next time someone could
use reading through that!
Thank you all very much for finding things (and those who haven't
found something but will later, too).
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband trusts me and has faith in my love for our kids and
committment to them. So arguments for how we treat/educate our
children come out of that. If they are triving, happy and so am I, he
feels whatever we are doing is working. He follows my lead alot and
although he may not agree with something in theory and arguing with
him would go absolutely nowhere. Living goes everywhere. I dont try to
convince him of anything. I just do it. We are happy, he sees that, so
he starts doing it too.=-
Verna/lalow wrote that. It's really sweet.
Ours was mostly that way, too. Keith and Kirby didn't get along as
well as Keith got along with the next two, so if Kirby had been an
only child, things wouldn't have gone as well in the longrun. But
Keith knew I was doing a lot of reading and thinking and observing of
other families, and he was able to see other families sometimes
because if a playgroup and babysitting co-op. He saw only maybe five
percent of what I saw, but he saw it with intro before and commentary
after. That was persuasive, I suppose.
Some couples are missing the trust and faith, for various reasons. My
kids have all been in relationships. 2/3 of them are in serious
relationships at the moment, and I'm always aware that these people
could be the future parents of my grandchildren. One is Holly's
boyfriend (and one of Kirby's best friends) Brett, whom some people
met or saw in Arizona last week. One is Marty's girlfriend Ashlee,
who was here this afternoon. She's very bright and energetic. She
smokes, or else she might be perfect.
So anyway... when I talk to my kids about their sweeties, I try to
say the kinds of things that will help them five or ten years from
now, on the assumption that this relationship could be long lasting.
I have a question on the side which I've declined to discuss
privately, but I did agree to bring it here. Advice would be
welcome. I don't want to identify any who or where, and I don't know
the author in person anyway.
It will be posted separately, but I think it's directly about trust
and faith, and the dangers of risking secrecy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
committment to them. So arguments for how we treat/educate our
children come out of that. If they are triving, happy and so am I, he
feels whatever we are doing is working. He follows my lead alot and
although he may not agree with something in theory and arguing with
him would go absolutely nowhere. Living goes everywhere. I dont try to
convince him of anything. I just do it. We are happy, he sees that, so
he starts doing it too.=-
Verna/lalow wrote that. It's really sweet.
Ours was mostly that way, too. Keith and Kirby didn't get along as
well as Keith got along with the next two, so if Kirby had been an
only child, things wouldn't have gone as well in the longrun. But
Keith knew I was doing a lot of reading and thinking and observing of
other families, and he was able to see other families sometimes
because if a playgroup and babysitting co-op. He saw only maybe five
percent of what I saw, but he saw it with intro before and commentary
after. That was persuasive, I suppose.
Some couples are missing the trust and faith, for various reasons. My
kids have all been in relationships. 2/3 of them are in serious
relationships at the moment, and I'm always aware that these people
could be the future parents of my grandchildren. One is Holly's
boyfriend (and one of Kirby's best friends) Brett, whom some people
met or saw in Arizona last week. One is Marty's girlfriend Ashlee,
who was here this afternoon. She's very bright and energetic. She
smokes, or else she might be perfect.
So anyway... when I talk to my kids about their sweeties, I try to
say the kinds of things that will help them five or ten years from
now, on the assumption that this relationship could be long lasting.
I have a question on the side which I've declined to discuss
privately, but I did agree to bring it here. Advice would be
welcome. I don't want to identify any who or where, and I don't know
the author in person anyway.
It will be posted separately, but I think it's directly about trust
and faith, and the dangers of risking secrecy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Losing a two parent home to divorce over the desire to unschool,
that's totally cutting off their nose to spite your face. =-
Yes.
It's going totally by rule then, and none by principle.
It's agreeing to cut the baby in half, which was the indication that
that person was NOT the real mother.
The proper mother will want the child to be whole and complete, no
matter where that whole body is.
(In case there's anyone here who doesn't know what the reference is,
here:
From verse 16:
http://www.bartleby.com/108/11/3.html
and for those who'd rather read Wikipedia's version, here it is.
(And it has a picture, too!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that's totally cutting off their nose to spite your face. =-
Yes.
It's going totally by rule then, and none by principle.
It's agreeing to cut the baby in half, which was the indication that
that person was NOT the real mother.
The proper mother will want the child to be whole and complete, no
matter where that whole body is.
(In case there's anyone here who doesn't know what the reference is,
here:
From verse 16:
http://www.bartleby.com/108/11/3.html
and for those who'd rather read Wikipedia's version, here it is.
(And it has a picture, too!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
-=Wondering if people have ever run up against parents and spouses who
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.-=-
When people shut down and don't want to listen, go back to unschooling
principles. In my opinion, they're based on how human nature works. It's
easy to get away from them after a while and assume that I know them better
than I actually do. And I like Pam's wonderful write up on "What Do
Unschoolers Do" for keeping on track since doing is where I tend to fall
behind.
-=-Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?-=-
collect them up and save them. Something to consider, though, is to
identify the ways in which one is NOT being persuasive, or is being
irritating, and then not do those things. <<<<
Persuasion is meant to operate on information that one's audience is
somewhat interested in. A mistake that's easy to make is to see one's own
points as more important than what the audience would want to know. But
both are important.
It might help some to consider persuasion from a traditional approach of
rhetoric. Enough to understand how people argue points and what's effective
or not effective about different kinds of presentation.
For instance. Some people are not easily swayed by emotional appeal.
Others don't trust anything else. Some people would rather get a logical
chain of evidence. Some people would rather eschew both of those approaches
in favor of a presentation based on tradition. I think Tolkien is an
excellent example of the traditional approach with all those hobbits, their
food, their ale, their gardens, their communal life and so forth. Other
ideas of tradition are linked with favored icons, religious, political,
commercial and otherwise.
A little disclaimer: I think most people prefer a blend of different
presentations. Which is why a little humor (or a lot, depending on one's
audience) lightens the weightier stuff.
It's good to know that a person who loves comfort and is somewhat
traditional may find logical or emotional appeals off putting or unnecessary
or silly or whatever. It's not a good strategy to continually present logic
to someone who prefers a different type of information.
The information might be vital no matter how it's presented yet that same
information makes a bigger impact after observing and studying how best to
make one's case.
Honestly, being the only parent who supports unschooling can sometimes be a
bit like studying for the bar or getting into political science. Or it can
be thought of as simply noting what the people in your life who don't
support unschooling prefer and giving more in that vein so as to keep the
credit flowing and continue unschooling long enough for your family and your
children to prove it without having to say so much about it. Like Verna
says in a previous post in this thread. :) Sometimes quietly going about
the business of unschooling is by far the best appeal one can make.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't WANT to listen or look for success because they believe that the
only way to succeed is to stay in school.-=-
When people shut down and don't want to listen, go back to unschooling
principles. In my opinion, they're based on how human nature works. It's
easy to get away from them after a while and assume that I know them better
than I actually do. And I like Pam's wonderful write up on "What Do
Unschoolers Do" for keeping on track since doing is where I tend to fall
behind.
-=-Maybe you could give me some suggestions about HOW to give someone
persuasive evidence....please?-=-
>>>> Well this is a great question, and has to do with the way individualscommunicate. I hope others will have good ideas, and I'll try to
collect them up and save them. Something to consider, though, is to
identify the ways in which one is NOT being persuasive, or is being
irritating, and then not do those things. <<<<
Persuasion is meant to operate on information that one's audience is
somewhat interested in. A mistake that's easy to make is to see one's own
points as more important than what the audience would want to know. But
both are important.
It might help some to consider persuasion from a traditional approach of
rhetoric. Enough to understand how people argue points and what's effective
or not effective about different kinds of presentation.
For instance. Some people are not easily swayed by emotional appeal.
Others don't trust anything else. Some people would rather get a logical
chain of evidence. Some people would rather eschew both of those approaches
in favor of a presentation based on tradition. I think Tolkien is an
excellent example of the traditional approach with all those hobbits, their
food, their ale, their gardens, their communal life and so forth. Other
ideas of tradition are linked with favored icons, religious, political,
commercial and otherwise.
A little disclaimer: I think most people prefer a blend of different
presentations. Which is why a little humor (or a lot, depending on one's
audience) lightens the weightier stuff.
It's good to know that a person who loves comfort and is somewhat
traditional may find logical or emotional appeals off putting or unnecessary
or silly or whatever. It's not a good strategy to continually present logic
to someone who prefers a different type of information.
The information might be vital no matter how it's presented yet that same
information makes a bigger impact after observing and studying how best to
make one's case.
Honestly, being the only parent who supports unschooling can sometimes be a
bit like studying for the bar or getting into political science. Or it can
be thought of as simply noting what the people in your life who don't
support unschooling prefer and giving more in that vein so as to keep the
credit flowing and continue unschooling long enough for your family and your
children to prove it without having to say so much about it. Like Verna
says in a previous post in this thread. :) Sometimes quietly going about
the business of unschooling is by far the best appeal one can make.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I usually don't take the time to click a lot of links. Glad you posted this
stuff, Kim! There's a lot of biological information that provides much
thought for doing a better in unschooling.
I clicked the first link which represents the first need in Maslow's
Hierarchy. Homeostasis. Which provides only one sentence about sleep and
it's very good:
since the last adequate sleep episode, and circadian rhythms which determine
the ideal timing of a correctly structured and restorative sleep episode.
<<<<
So sleep has less (though not nothing) to do with external rules one could
apply than with all that goes on internally to regulate sleep patterns.
Oh and I just love the following in light of unschooling principles:
homeostasis*, where (for example) people that have anti-lock brakes have no
better safety record than those without anti-lock brakes, because the former
unconsciously compensate for the safer vehicle via less-safe driving habits.
Previous to the innovation of anti-lock brakes, certain maneuvers involved
minor skids, evoking fear and avoidance: now the anti-lock system moves the
boundary for such feedback, and behavior patterns expand into the no-longer
punitive area. It has also been suggested that ecological crises are an
instance of risk homeostasis in which behavior known to be dangerous
continues until dramatic consequences actually occur. <<<<
That says a lot about human nature, which in my opinion is what unschooling
is based on in the first place.
Radical unschooling can be like driving without anti-lock brakes.
People (children and adults) do things that on the surface look dangerous,
things that could actually result in catastrophe. This behavior has nothing
to do with unschooling or not unschooling. It's how humans naturally are.
Does this mean that allowing children to make some decisions and take some
risks is more dangerous than protecting our children from any and all
exposure to risk? Using the example above of relying on ABS (anti-lock
brakes) or driving without them, I don't think so.
People who haven't very often experienced the results of their own mistakes
(or learning takes as Kelly Lovejoy calls them), who have led more sheltered
lives, might sometimes be more likely (or frequently as the case may be) to
ignore any safety precautions they've been told all their lives once they
get out on their own. Perhaps for years. Because maybe they feel pretty
secure with their "ABS." That goes for driving, eating, interacting within
all types of relationships (with partners, children, friends, etc), and any
other risk behavior. Living is itself a risk behavior... of which the
consequence is ultimately death. (Yes, I know there are actually people who
argue against that assumption but that still doesn't mean there's no such
thing as risk.)
On the importance of living and learning at an early age. When consequences
occur within the (hopefully) more protective environment of one's parent's
home along with the ameliorating effect of parent's support and help to
avoid serious danger. As opposed to withholding opportunities from children
to experience making decisions themselves, including the chance to work with
choices enough to perceive a wider range of options available for making
those decisions with.
When a child has some realistic experience with taking risk, I think they're
more likely to consider safety precautions whether driving, interacting with
others, and so on, and they're less likely to want to experience greater
risk taking during adulthood to arrive at the point of considering more
caution where it's needed.
~Katherine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis#cite_note-1>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stuff, Kim! There's a lot of biological information that provides much
thought for doing a better in unschooling.
I clicked the first link which represents the first need in Maslow's
Hierarchy. Homeostasis. Which provides only one sentence about sleep and
it's very good:
>>>> Sleep timing depends upon a balance between homeostatic sleeppropensity, the need for sleep as a function of the amount of time elapsed
since the last adequate sleep episode, and circadian rhythms which determine
the ideal timing of a correctly structured and restorative sleep episode.
<<<<
So sleep has less (though not nothing) to do with external rules one could
apply than with all that goes on internally to regulate sleep patterns.
Oh and I just love the following in light of unschooling principles:
>>>> Main article: risk homeostasis<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_homeostasis>An actuary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuary> may refer to *risk
homeostasis*, where (for example) people that have anti-lock brakes have no
better safety record than those without anti-lock brakes, because the former
unconsciously compensate for the safer vehicle via less-safe driving habits.
Previous to the innovation of anti-lock brakes, certain maneuvers involved
minor skids, evoking fear and avoidance: now the anti-lock system moves the
boundary for such feedback, and behavior patterns expand into the no-longer
punitive area. It has also been suggested that ecological crises are an
instance of risk homeostasis in which behavior known to be dangerous
continues until dramatic consequences actually occur. <<<<
That says a lot about human nature, which in my opinion is what unschooling
is based on in the first place.
Radical unschooling can be like driving without anti-lock brakes.
People (children and adults) do things that on the surface look dangerous,
things that could actually result in catastrophe. This behavior has nothing
to do with unschooling or not unschooling. It's how humans naturally are.
Does this mean that allowing children to make some decisions and take some
risks is more dangerous than protecting our children from any and all
exposure to risk? Using the example above of relying on ABS (anti-lock
brakes) or driving without them, I don't think so.
People who haven't very often experienced the results of their own mistakes
(or learning takes as Kelly Lovejoy calls them), who have led more sheltered
lives, might sometimes be more likely (or frequently as the case may be) to
ignore any safety precautions they've been told all their lives once they
get out on their own. Perhaps for years. Because maybe they feel pretty
secure with their "ABS." That goes for driving, eating, interacting within
all types of relationships (with partners, children, friends, etc), and any
other risk behavior. Living is itself a risk behavior... of which the
consequence is ultimately death. (Yes, I know there are actually people who
argue against that assumption but that still doesn't mean there's no such
thing as risk.)
On the importance of living and learning at an early age. When consequences
occur within the (hopefully) more protective environment of one's parent's
home along with the ameliorating effect of parent's support and help to
avoid serious danger. As opposed to withholding opportunities from children
to experience making decisions themselves, including the chance to work with
choices enough to perceive a wider range of options available for making
those decisions with.
When a child has some realistic experience with taking risk, I think they're
more likely to consider safety precautions whether driving, interacting with
others, and so on, and they're less likely to want to experience greater
risk taking during adulthood to arrive at the point of considering more
caution where it's needed.
~Katherine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis#cite_note-1>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When a child has some realistic experience with taking risk, I
think they're
more likely to consider safety precautions whether driving,
interacting with
others, and so on, and they're less likely to want to experience greater
risk taking during adulthood to arrive at the point of considering more
caution where it's needed.-=-
Kirby, my oldest, is 22. He spoke at the HENA conference in Arizona
on March 7. He said three things that surprised me. One was that he
explained that when he was young his parents (me, one of them, and I
was sitting there) hadn't told him no much, but had helped him see the
possible outcomes of various decisions, and then supported what he
decided. So he was saying we had helped him figure out how to make
decisions, early on. And now that he's grown, I've seen him make
some really good ones. He's just moved into a house with his
apartment-mate and another friend, and a fourth is moving in next
month, I think. They did a great job, it seemed, of deciding whether,
how and when to move, and pulling it off in an efficient way (in the
two days before he left for the conference in Arizona).
The other two surprising things, for the record, were he totally
bragged up his brother Marty (who wasn't there), and he credited
Pokemon for the trajectory that led him to the job he's in now. I
hadn't thought of it that way, but when he told it, the whole picture
came flooding back, of why he started hanging out at Active
Imagination in the first place (the gaming shop in which he worked
from 14 to 19).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think they're
more likely to consider safety precautions whether driving,
interacting with
others, and so on, and they're less likely to want to experience greater
risk taking during adulthood to arrive at the point of considering more
caution where it's needed.-=-
Kirby, my oldest, is 22. He spoke at the HENA conference in Arizona
on March 7. He said three things that surprised me. One was that he
explained that when he was young his parents (me, one of them, and I
was sitting there) hadn't told him no much, but had helped him see the
possible outcomes of various decisions, and then supported what he
decided. So he was saying we had helped him figure out how to make
decisions, early on. And now that he's grown, I've seen him make
some really good ones. He's just moved into a house with his
apartment-mate and another friend, and a fourth is moving in next
month, I think. They did a great job, it seemed, of deciding whether,
how and when to move, and pulling it off in an efficient way (in the
two days before he left for the conference in Arizona).
The other two surprising things, for the record, were he totally
bragged up his brother Marty (who wasn't there), and he credited
Pokemon for the trajectory that led him to the job he's in now. I
hadn't thought of it that way, but when he told it, the whole picture
came flooding back, of why he started hanging out at Active
Imagination in the first place (the gaming shop in which he worked
from 14 to 19).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/17/2009 6:33 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
blowing the talk. We had a conversation about it, and I said something
like, "Think about the kids whose lives will be happier because their
parents just see you up there talking." I meant that they'd see an
unschooled young man being willing to do that - to travel, spend a
weekend, to stand up in front of an audience, to talk about personal
stuff in public -- that the fact he was willing to do it was a message
itself, aside from what he actually said in his talk.
-pam
> -=-When a child has some realistic experience with taking risk, IAnd he was really nervous but willing to take the risk of totally
> think they're
> more likely to consider safety precautions whether driving,
> interacting with
> others, and so on, and they're less likely to want to experience greater
> risk taking during adulthood to arrive at the point of considering more
> caution where it's needed.-=-
>
> Kirby, my oldest, is 22. He spoke at the HENA conference in Arizona
> on March 7.
blowing the talk. We had a conversation about it, and I said something
like, "Think about the kids whose lives will be happier because their
parents just see you up there talking." I meant that they'd see an
unschooled young man being willing to do that - to travel, spend a
weekend, to stand up in front of an audience, to talk about personal
stuff in public -- that the fact he was willing to do it was a message
itself, aside from what he actually said in his talk.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=- I meant that they'd see an
unschooled young man being willing to do that - to travel, spend a
weekend, to stand up in front of an audience, to talk about personal
stuff in public -- that the fact he was willing to do it was a message
itself, aside from what he actually said in his talk.-=-
He missed three days of work to do that, too, and he LIKES his job.
His days off had been Wednesday and Thursday, and they spent those
moving from an apartment to a house. So he took three days of his
vacation to go and hang out with his family and friends of his mom's,
basically. Not a lot of people his age would do that as cheerfully as
he did, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooled young man being willing to do that - to travel, spend a
weekend, to stand up in front of an audience, to talk about personal
stuff in public -- that the fact he was willing to do it was a message
itself, aside from what he actually said in his talk.-=-
He missed three days of work to do that, too, and he LIKES his job.
His days off had been Wednesday and Thursday, and they spent those
moving from an apartment to a house. So he took three days of his
vacation to go and hang out with his family and friends of his mom's,
basically. Not a lot of people his age would do that as cheerfully as
he did, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
"And I like Pam's wonderful write up on "What Do Unschoolers Do" "
Does anyone have a link to this?
Thanks, Joanna
Does anyone have a link to this?
Thanks, Joanna
Ed Wendell
Sometimes I reject new ideas out of hand - simply based upon my old assumptions / beliefs - kind of a knee jerk reaction. But given time I tend to come around - so for me I need time and space to become comfortable with it - for it to become my own. Baby steps sometimes and giant leaps other times.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
"And I like Pam's wonderful write up on "What Do Unschoolers Do" "
that name. I think it could use a page all its own if it doesn't have one.
My copy is on my fridge held by a magnet. Here are the contents:
1. Show respect for all of a child's interests equally.
2. Keep the child in mind as I go through life, so that I notice
things that might be of interest to that child.
3. Find ways to include the child in my own daily life - live a
more"open-book' life than the norm.
4. Follow up on things the child is interested in - and do this in a
wide variety of ways, not only by "getting him a book on it."
5. Live a family life that is rich with experiences of a variety of
kinds both at *home* and outside the *home*.
6. Have resources around the *home* that are interesting and
stimulating - things that will encourage exploration of ideas.
7. Discuss things - spend time in conversation. This is probably
overall the most important parental"action' involved in *unschooling*.
8. Have a"playful' attitude - play together, have fun, appreciate the
amazing world around you. Don't be cynical, be able to be amazed
and find the world a fascinating place. THIS is the most
important"attitude' for an *unschooling* parent.
9. Be self-aware of your own thinking and behavior. Purposely stretch
your imagination - question your own assumptions, check your own
automatic impulses.
10. Be very observant of what your child is really doing - don't view
him/her in a shallow superficial way. Recognize that there is a
reason for a child's actions, that a child is"born to learn' and
is always learning. Get to know your child's own special favored
ways of learning
11. Wholeheartedly support a child's passions EVEN if, to you, they
don't look like "education.
And a link about unschooling principles also by Pam is here:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles.html
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>> Does anyone have a link to this? <<<<Well turns out it's a post written by Pam Sorooshian in a recent thread by
that name. I think it could use a page all its own if it doesn't have one.
My copy is on my fridge held by a magnet. Here are the contents:
1. Show respect for all of a child's interests equally.
2. Keep the child in mind as I go through life, so that I notice
things that might be of interest to that child.
3. Find ways to include the child in my own daily life - live a
more"open-book' life than the norm.
4. Follow up on things the child is interested in - and do this in a
wide variety of ways, not only by "getting him a book on it."
5. Live a family life that is rich with experiences of a variety of
kinds both at *home* and outside the *home*.
6. Have resources around the *home* that are interesting and
stimulating - things that will encourage exploration of ideas.
7. Discuss things - spend time in conversation. This is probably
overall the most important parental"action' involved in *unschooling*.
8. Have a"playful' attitude - play together, have fun, appreciate the
amazing world around you. Don't be cynical, be able to be amazed
and find the world a fascinating place. THIS is the most
important"attitude' for an *unschooling* parent.
9. Be self-aware of your own thinking and behavior. Purposely stretch
your imagination - question your own assumptions, check your own
automatic impulses.
10. Be very observant of what your child is really doing - don't view
him/her in a shallow superficial way. Recognize that there is a
reason for a child's actions, that a child is"born to learn' and
is always learning. Get to know your child's own special favored
ways of learning
11. Wholeheartedly support a child's passions EVEN if, to you, they
don't look like "education.
And a link about unschooling principles also by Pam is here:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles.html
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
That one?
If not, see if it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
And if it's not there, but it's somewhere else, please send me the link!
Sandra
That one?
If not, see if it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
And if it's not there, but it's somewhere else, please send me the link!
Sandra