Writing
wallyandwendy
Hello All...
I've been lurking and learning for a few years now and hope you can offer some suggestions.
DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. The problem is we've run into situations where writing occasionally comes into play (scouts, 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people that he doesn't know how which then, of course, I get looked at with raised eyebrows if the people don't know us. If I'm with him I have no problem helping him if I'm not chasing around his 3yo brother.
The real problem in that he now is very reluctant to go to activities where writing may take place even if he is really interested in the event and clubs he's been enjoying for years.
I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in. I've said that it's just something that to get good at you just need to practice...just like learning a new video game, snowboarding, riding a bike or anything else.
He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting and pecking.
We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started unschooling. It was one part of the classical curriculum he didn't mind at the time. So I offered to get him another work book to help him. He agreed but hasn't helped as he knows his letters. I even tried the cursive to see if another style would be helpful.
Here's what else I've tried/suggested for him to do over the past year...
-I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so he could copy a few lines a day.
-giving him a journal
-suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
-starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has added very little text.)
-various workbooks
-suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.
Of course my schooling friends suggest I ground him, take away video games, force him to do writing, etc. I'm not feeling any of those suggestions!!
Ian has no suggestions himself, just says he would just doesn't like to write.
DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive of unschooling especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but this is making him nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough for him or CPS may show up (friends had it happen with their son who wasn't speaking clear enough by age six in the opinion of her ex-father-in- law. He reported them although the allegations were found to be unfounded)
Thanks for any advice....and thanks for helping us on our journey.
Wendy, Wally, Ian (age 10), Dominic (age 3) and Jordan (age 12...she decided to check out the middle school this year)
I've been lurking and learning for a few years now and hope you can offer some suggestions.
DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. The problem is we've run into situations where writing occasionally comes into play (scouts, 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people that he doesn't know how which then, of course, I get looked at with raised eyebrows if the people don't know us. If I'm with him I have no problem helping him if I'm not chasing around his 3yo brother.
The real problem in that he now is very reluctant to go to activities where writing may take place even if he is really interested in the event and clubs he's been enjoying for years.
I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in. I've said that it's just something that to get good at you just need to practice...just like learning a new video game, snowboarding, riding a bike or anything else.
He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting and pecking.
We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started unschooling. It was one part of the classical curriculum he didn't mind at the time. So I offered to get him another work book to help him. He agreed but hasn't helped as he knows his letters. I even tried the cursive to see if another style would be helpful.
Here's what else I've tried/suggested for him to do over the past year...
-I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so he could copy a few lines a day.
-giving him a journal
-suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
-starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has added very little text.)
-various workbooks
-suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.
Of course my schooling friends suggest I ground him, take away video games, force him to do writing, etc. I'm not feeling any of those suggestions!!
Ian has no suggestions himself, just says he would just doesn't like to write.
DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive of unschooling especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but this is making him nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough for him or CPS may show up (friends had it happen with their son who wasn't speaking clear enough by age six in the opinion of her ex-father-in- law. He reported them although the allegations were found to be unfounded)
Thanks for any advice....and thanks for helping us on our journey.
Wendy, Wally, Ian (age 10), Dominic (age 3) and Jordan (age 12...she decided to check out the middle school this year)
Sandra Dodd
-=-
He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of
the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting
and pecking.=-
Holly's lightning fast with her two middle fingers, and really
accurate, too.
John Holt told some kids once what he had been told and believed, that
cursive writing was faster than printing. He set out to prove it, and
it wasn't true. <g>
Maybe your son would prefer to print? (Oh. He is printing. So I
wouldn't push the cursive at all.)
Maybe he could avoid those activities for a while. It's not that
big a deal if he takes a year or two to do other things.
-=-I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and
write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in.-=-
Maybe don't mention that anymore. If one thing a parent says doesn't
make full sense, the rest is suspect. He can learn just about
anything he's interested in without reading or writing, honestly.
-=-We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started
unschooling.-=-
Sounds ominous, like handwriting should produce tears. And your post
starts "DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head
hurt." I remember being 10. I was one of the few kids in my class
who didn't hate to write. He might never think it's fun, but right
now he's saying right out loud it's not fun, so I would find non-
writing things to do for a while.
Can you do more things as a family and not so much him-with-other-
people (scouts, 4-H, camp)?
-=-
-I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so he
could copy a few lines a day.
-giving him a journal
-suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
-starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has
added very little text.)
-various workbooks
-suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.-=-
That sounds like handwriting with tears, to me.
When I was worried about my boys learning to write, I gave them each a
spiral notebook and said if they filled it up with writing---copies,
original, I didn't care--I'd buy them a video game in the $50 range.
I thought, because I had liked writing, that this wouldn't be so awful
a thing. Neither of them did more than a few pages. It wasn't worth
it. And I was turning writing into something not fun at all.
I bet you and your husband could fill up the next year or two with
really cool things that have nothing on earth to do with needing to
write.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of
the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting
and pecking.=-
Holly's lightning fast with her two middle fingers, and really
accurate, too.
John Holt told some kids once what he had been told and believed, that
cursive writing was faster than printing. He set out to prove it, and
it wasn't true. <g>
Maybe your son would prefer to print? (Oh. He is printing. So I
wouldn't push the cursive at all.)
Maybe he could avoid those activities for a while. It's not that
big a deal if he takes a year or two to do other things.
-=-I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and
write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in.-=-
Maybe don't mention that anymore. If one thing a parent says doesn't
make full sense, the rest is suspect. He can learn just about
anything he's interested in without reading or writing, honestly.
-=-We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started
unschooling.-=-
Sounds ominous, like handwriting should produce tears. And your post
starts "DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head
hurt." I remember being 10. I was one of the few kids in my class
who didn't hate to write. He might never think it's fun, but right
now he's saying right out loud it's not fun, so I would find non-
writing things to do for a while.
Can you do more things as a family and not so much him-with-other-
people (scouts, 4-H, camp)?
-=-
-I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so he
could copy a few lines a day.
-giving him a journal
-suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
-starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has
added very little text.)
-various workbooks
-suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.-=-
That sounds like handwriting with tears, to me.
When I was worried about my boys learning to write, I gave them each a
spiral notebook and said if they filled it up with writing---copies,
original, I didn't care--I'd buy them a video game in the $50 range.
I thought, because I had liked writing, that this wouldn't be so awful
a thing. Neither of them did more than a few pages. It wasn't worth
it. And I was turning writing into something not fun at all.
I bet you and your husband could fill up the next year or two with
really cool things that have nothing on earth to do with needing to
write.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive ofunschooling especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but this is
making him nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough for him or CPS may
show up (friends had it happen with their son who wasn't speaking clear
enough by age six in the opinion of her ex-father-in- law. He reported them
although the allegations were found to be unfounded) <<<<
It sounds like you're doing some good things, and if it means you want to
introduce other things for while that don't put your son in the spotlight
about whether he's writing or not ... I would think that's a fine focus.
Rather than worrying. It's an idea of something you can do, that also helps
you with a little measure of prevention by avoiding the spotlight.
Maybe your son is on to something there. :)
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
emiLy Q.
I would get his eyes checked -- the comment about it making his head hurt
jumped out at me.
If his eyes are fine, I'd drop the writing.
Maybe maybe maybe you could think about / research things that would improve
his hand strength and dexterity and start there? Puzzles, video games,
legos, piano/keyboard (not lessons, just playing around on it), those are
what come to my mind immediately but I'm sure there's tons tons more, and
more helpful things that he'd enjoy and you could tell your husband is
"groundwork" for writing.
Also - just in case you haven't done this - you could take him to an office
supply place and research different pens with soft padding, different ways
of writing (ink, gel), etc. But actually I think I'd wait on that until he
was starting to write more, unless he has complained about his tools in the
past.
-emiLy
jumped out at me.
If his eyes are fine, I'd drop the writing.
Maybe maybe maybe you could think about / research things that would improve
his hand strength and dexterity and start there? Puzzles, video games,
legos, piano/keyboard (not lessons, just playing around on it), those are
what come to my mind immediately but I'm sure there's tons tons more, and
more helpful things that he'd enjoy and you could tell your husband is
"groundwork" for writing.
Also - just in case you haven't done this - you could take him to an office
supply place and research different pens with soft padding, different ways
of writing (ink, gel), etc. But actually I think I'd wait on that until he
was starting to write more, unless he has complained about his tools in the
past.
-emiLy
On 3/6/09 8:27 AM, "wallyandwendy" <wallyandwendy@...> wrote:
> Hello All...
>
> I've been lurking and learning for a few years now and hope you can offer some
> suggestions.
>
> DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. The problem is
> we've run into situations where writing occasionally comes into play (scouts,
> 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people that he doesn't know how which
> then, of course, I get looked at with raised eyebrows if the people don't know
> us. If I'm with him I have no problem helping him if I'm not chasing around
> his 3yo brother.
>
> The real problem in that he now is very reluctant to go to activities where
> writing may take place even if he is really interested in the event and clubs
> he's been enjoying for years.
>
>
> I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and write you
> can learn just about anything else you're interested in. I've said that it's
> just something that to get good at you just need to practice...just like
> learning a new video game, snowboarding, riding a bike or anything else.
>
> He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of the typing
> programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting and pecking.
>
> We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started
> unschooling. It was one part of the classical curriculum he didn't mind at the
> time. So I offered to get him another work book to help him. He agreed but
> hasn't helped as he knows his letters. I even tried the cursive to see if
> another style would be helpful.
>
> Here's what else I've tried/suggested for him to do over the past year...
>
> -I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so he could
> copy a few lines a day.
> -giving him a journal
> -suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
> -starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has added very
> little text.)
> -various workbooks
> -suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.
>
> Of course my schooling friends suggest I ground him, take away video games,
> force him to do writing, etc. I'm not feeling any of those suggestions!!
>
> Ian has no suggestions himself, just says he would just doesn't like to write.
>
> DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive of unschooling
> especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but this is making him
> nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough for him or CPS may show up
> (friends had it happen with their son who wasn't speaking clear enough by age
> six in the opinion of her ex-father-in- law. He reported them although the
> allegations were found to be unfounded)
>
> Thanks for any advice....and thanks for helping us on our journey.
>
> Wendy, Wally, Ian (age 10), Dominic (age 3) and Jordan (age 12...she decided
> to check out the middle school this year)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5) & Henry (1.5)
I love EC!
http://www.WhatisEC.com
Joanna Murphy
> DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. The problem is we've run into situations where writing occasionally comes into play (scouts, 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people that he doesn't know how which then, of course, I get looked at with raised eyebrows if the people don't know us. brother.I ran into this a bit with my son (who can hunt and peck about as fast as I can type now--lol). I would speak to instructors before the class, and explain that my son could read or write or whatever, but was really not into it, and could there be some alternative, if the class was going to have that. They were always open to that, and if they were prepared, then my son didn't have to face whatever judgement might have come his way if he'd had to explain it, out loud, in front of everyone.
The last time was when he was 10 and he was in a play. The kids had to read it out loud, which he wasn't comfortable with (even though he could do it). He had the play memorized before anyone else, including kids much older than him--which went a long way towards helping him build his confidence.
So maybe taking your own focus off of his "deficits" and looking at what he IS doing will help him. One of the true powers of unschooling is NOT having to look at what our kids can't do--but focus on what they can and are doing. Don't parrot the schooled mindset around you.
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
> "I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in."Writing has very little to do with learning--it has more to do with communicating, which is a process going out the other direction.
"I've said that it's just something that to get good at you just need to practice...just like learning a new video game, snowboarding, riding a bike or anything else."
Or it can be something that you do when you're ready.
>My kids hunt and peck VERY fast--at least 40 wpm. They weren't very interested in typing programs either.
> He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting and pecking.
>It sounds like he's suggesting that he shouldn't write right now.
> Ian has no suggestions himself, just says he would just doesn't like to write.
>You need to reassure your husband, after you get plenty of reassurance, that your son is perfectly "normal." He is concerned, in large part, because you are concerned. Many boys (and girls), if given the choice, don't write until they are older, and then they just do. Just like reading. But your focus needs to shift away from worry and concern to patience and confidence that your intelligent and capable son will of course be doing whatever there is to be done.
> DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive of unschooling especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but this is making him nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough for him or CPS may show up (friends had it happen with their son who wasn't speaking clear enough by age six in the opinion of her ex-father-in- law. He reported them although the allegations were found to be unfounded)
If you keep your focus on "school skills," then, imho, your children will be more likely to want to go to school, because that's where they can have more confidence that they will learn those skills.
Joanna
Jenny C
> DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. Theproblem is we've run into situations where writing occasionally comes
into play (scouts, 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people that he
doesn't know how which then, of course, I get looked at with raised
eyebrows if the people don't know us. If I'm with him I have no problem
helping him if I'm not chasing around his 3yo brother.
>where writing may take place even if he is really interested in the
> The real problem in that he now is very reluctant to go to activities
event and clubs he's been enjoying for years.
>Chamille experienced the same thing. We were involved in a homeschool
>
troop, so I told the leader that she had a hard time reading and writing
and really needed extra help in doing projects that involved that. They
were very understanding and paired people up to do projects so that
Chamille could still do the projects, but with the help of a friend. It
worked out really well for her and what could have been a big deal
wasn't and Chamille never felt stupid or dumb for her inability.
When Chamille was about 8, she said writing made her head hurt and it
led us to discover that she needed glasses. That helped a lot!
I always filled out forms for Chamille, and I still do and she'll be 15
next month. I've gotten looks from people, but I think people assume
I'm a pushy over bearing mother that takes over for my kids. I'm fine
with that assumption, because I'd rather that, then have someone assume
Chamille is illiterate because she doesn't like to hand write anything.
It's not that she can't, she just doesn't like to. It is a somewhat
painstaking process for her and she still gets some letters and numbers
backwards when she writes. The keyboard doesn't do that!
She figured out how to type on her own accord and types extremely fast,
faster than me with fewer mistakes. She started off slow and found she
needed to be faster to keep up with live chats. And cursive, well, that
is so out of the realm of understanding for her, she has no interest in
it and doesn't read it or write it and finds it very confusing. One day
she may find it useful to be able to read it or write it and perhaps
not, but it won't keep her from doing what she loves to do, this much I
do know!
Verna
I hate writing. Makes my hand hurt. I have always disliked it. When i have much to write at all I type and print it off. If I need to write something I keep it very short. Most others cant read my writing unless I really apply myself.. which I do when i am filling out forms or applications that I cant find online and type in. my husband on the other hand loves it. He likes to make everythign look neat and spends lots of time printing his letters all the same size. So i let him do the writing.
When I worked in the schools, I used to tell parents and teachers all the time that they were holding their kids back by insisting that the hand write things. You would have a kid ready and wanting to express themselves and they would just INSIST that they had to write it.
When I worked in the schools, I used to tell parents and teachers all the time that they were holding their kids back by insisting that the hand write things. You would have a kid ready and wanting to express themselves and they would just INSIST that they had to write it.
Joanna Murphy
My kids have loved a few things that come to mind--but I'd pursue them mainly in the spirit of fun exploration. (The first two might be a bit young, i don't know.) They loved drawing on the sliding glass door with wax crayons that we got through some Waldorfy catalog. They enjoyed "writing" with their fingers or a stick on a baking sheet of flour, and we have a Buddha Board, which my daughter adores, and she's 10. Also, homemade playdough is fun at just about any age, and works the hand muscles.
And I agree with the last suggestion of finding other hand-eye builders. Video games have been good for that around here--and certainly typing.
http://www.amazon.com/Buddha-Board-LBB-Easel/dp/B0002YF25C
Joanna
And I agree with the last suggestion of finding other hand-eye builders. Video games have been good for that around here--and certainly typing.
http://www.amazon.com/Buddha-Board-LBB-Easel/dp/B0002YF25C
Joanna
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<and works the hand muscles.
I would caution especially new unschoolers from buying, or strewing, or
bringing stuff in BECAUSE it will be a hand-eye or fine motor skills
builder. There can be a tendency to then watch your kids with the point of
view of evaluating whether the game, tool, craft supply (whatever) is "doing
its job" of building fine motor skills and enhancing hand-eye coordination.
It's a whole different energy, with a kind of assumption that the value of
the activity lies in it being a skill building stepping stone, instead of
something cool to do right now today.
Around here, with Jayn, these are the kind of learning and skills
development that happen automatically and continually as a happy side effect
of having fun and following her passions. I occasionally notice them after
the fact, after a leap has been made, but I emphatically don't watch for
them to happen. That would be putting a filter between me and my daughter.
Bring the stuff in, even exactly the same stuff, with the joyful attitude
and intention of supporting your child's interests and passions, and let the
hand/eye take care of itself. (Because it will!)
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>There's an idea in here worth examining.
> And I agree with the last suggestion of finding other hand-eye builders.
> >>>>
I would caution especially new unschoolers from buying, or strewing, or
bringing stuff in BECAUSE it will be a hand-eye or fine motor skills
builder. There can be a tendency to then watch your kids with the point of
view of evaluating whether the game, tool, craft supply (whatever) is "doing
its job" of building fine motor skills and enhancing hand-eye coordination.
It's a whole different energy, with a kind of assumption that the value of
the activity lies in it being a skill building stepping stone, instead of
something cool to do right now today.
Around here, with Jayn, these are the kind of learning and skills
development that happen automatically and continually as a happy side effect
of having fun and following her passions. I occasionally notice them after
the fact, after a leap has been made, but I emphatically don't watch for
them to happen. That would be putting a filter between me and my daughter.
Bring the stuff in, even exactly the same stuff, with the joyful attitude
and intention of supporting your child's interests and passions, and let the
hand/eye take care of itself. (Because it will!)
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
emiLy Q.
I agree Robyn. However, I think it's useful to be aware of the idea of this
kind of thing to mention to others -- like the original poster was having
problems with her husband wanting the son to write more, better, etc. Not
as much to talk about or watch for in the son, but to say to the husband
that this or that will/is building hand strength, which will improve
writing.
I definitely definitely think eyes should be checked, especially now that
Jenny said Chamille had that same reaction.
I generally avoid writing nowadays as well. It's slow, I don't like using
pencils, so I have to cross out mistakes -- what a pain! My hand isn't used
to it so I can't do it for long without hurting a bit. In the past I have
handwritten TONS. I kept diaries for 7 years straight, writing pages and
pages most days, including with my left hand or mirror-image just for fun.
Right after college and moving, buying a house, I worked at a company hand
addressing envelopes to increase the chance that they would be opened by the
recipient. Inside were past PAST due credit card warning letters as well as
birthday cards "signed" by insurance agents (it was really me!). I wrote 4+
hours a day with production goals, had to not only be legible but very nice
looking, straight lines, in cursive. It wasn't very fun, but it was an OK
job. I just couldn't handle being there at 8 AM, so I quit after about 6
months when we knew we'd be able to pay our bills with our own business.
The only writing I do now is to write little notes to my husband a few times
a week and to handwrite a thank you on packing slips as a "personal touch."
We keep a grocery list going on the fridge, but when we make the real list,
I have one saved on my computer roughly in the order we happen upon the
items in the store and we add/take away from that list and print it out to
take with us.
-emiLy
kind of thing to mention to others -- like the original poster was having
problems with her husband wanting the son to write more, better, etc. Not
as much to talk about or watch for in the son, but to say to the husband
that this or that will/is building hand strength, which will improve
writing.
I definitely definitely think eyes should be checked, especially now that
Jenny said Chamille had that same reaction.
I generally avoid writing nowadays as well. It's slow, I don't like using
pencils, so I have to cross out mistakes -- what a pain! My hand isn't used
to it so I can't do it for long without hurting a bit. In the past I have
handwritten TONS. I kept diaries for 7 years straight, writing pages and
pages most days, including with my left hand or mirror-image just for fun.
Right after college and moving, buying a house, I worked at a company hand
addressing envelopes to increase the chance that they would be opened by the
recipient. Inside were past PAST due credit card warning letters as well as
birthday cards "signed" by insurance agents (it was really me!). I wrote 4+
hours a day with production goals, had to not only be legible but very nice
looking, straight lines, in cursive. It wasn't very fun, but it was an OK
job. I just couldn't handle being there at 8 AM, so I quit after about 6
months when we knew we'd be able to pay our bills with our own business.
The only writing I do now is to write little notes to my husband a few times
a week and to handwrite a thank you on packing slips as a "personal touch."
We keep a grocery list going on the fridge, but when we make the real list,
I have one saved on my computer roughly in the order we happen upon the
items in the store and we add/take away from that list and print it out to
take with us.
-emiLy
Nancy Wooton
On Mar 6, 2009, at 6:27 AM, wallyandwendy wrote:
help, I'd supply it. My daughter is 21 and writes the same way as she
did when she was six. We did School in a Box for the first year, and
that's pretty much how she writes now; she doesn't even have a
signature per se. I didn't want to be pushy, so she typed instead,
and still does when she can, but being unable to write is a pain when
you're 21.
I was only 4 1/2 when I started kindergarten, and had to write, of
course. At that age, I didn't have the fine motor skill necessary, so
I compensated by gripping my pencil on my ring finger; I still do.
It's tiring and painful. I ran across a different way of holding a
pencil or pen some years ago, and found this page of video handwriting
lessons just now
http://www.monkeysee.com/play/9112-how-to-improve-handwriting
It's a bit old-fashioned, with a grandmotherly lady teaching writing,
but one of the videos -- the one titled "Essentials Elements of
Handwriting," about a third of the way in -- demonstrates this
alternate hold, where the pencil lies between the index and middle
fingers. Ian might find it less tiring.
Nancy
> Hello All...I may take some heat for suggesting this, but, if your son wants some
>
> I've been lurking and learning for a few years now and hope you can
> offer some suggestions.
>
> DS Ian, age 10, hates to write. Says it makes his head hurt. The
> problem is we've run into situations where writing occasionally
> comes into play (scouts, 4H, camp, etc.) He has actually told people
> that he doesn't know how which then, of course, I get looked at with
> raised eyebrows if the people don't know us. If I'm with him I have
> no problem helping him if I'm not chasing around his 3yo brother.
>
> The real problem in that he now is very reluctant to go to
> activities where writing may take place even if he is really
> interested in the event and clubs he's been enjoying for years.
>
>
> I've mentioned to him that if you can read (which he does well) and
> write you can learn just about anything else you're interested in.
> I've said that it's just something that to get good at you just need
> to practice...just like learning a new video game, snowboarding,
> riding a bike or anything else.
>
> He loves to Google so he types but hasn't been thrilled with any of
> the typing programs I've found for the family but he's happy hunting
> and pecking.
>
> We used Handwriting Without Tears for a few years before we started
> unschooling. It was one part of the classical curriculum he didn't
> mind at the time. So I offered to get him another work book to help
> him. He agreed but hasn't helped as he knows his letters. I even
> tried the cursive to see if another style would be helpful.
>
> Here's what else I've tried/suggested for him to do over the past
> year...
>
> -I wrote a story with his input about him and Sonic the Hedgehog so
> he could copy a few lines a day.
> -giving him a journal
> -suggesting he puts captions to his comic books he draws.
> -starting a blog (which he did but he likes to add pictures and has
> added very little text.)
> -various workbooks
> -suggesting he have a pen pal...even if it's postcards.
>
> Of course my schooling friends suggest I ground him, take away video
> games, force him to do writing, etc. I'm not feeling any of those
> suggestions!!
>
> Ian has no suggestions himself, just says he would just doesn't like
> to write.
>
> DH is on me big time about this. He's been quite supportive of
> unschooling especially since life is so much calmer/happier now but
> this is making him nervous (and me too) that I'm not doing enough
> for him or CPS may show up (friends had it happen with their son who
> wasn't speaking clear enough by age six in the opinion of her ex-
> father-in- law. He reported them although the allegations were found
> to be unfounded)
>
> Thanks for any advice....and thanks for helping us on our journey.
>
> Wendy, Wally, Ian (age 10), Dominic (age 3) and Jordan (age 12...she
> decided to check out the middle school this year)
help, I'd supply it. My daughter is 21 and writes the same way as she
did when she was six. We did School in a Box for the first year, and
that's pretty much how she writes now; she doesn't even have a
signature per se. I didn't want to be pushy, so she typed instead,
and still does when she can, but being unable to write is a pain when
you're 21.
I was only 4 1/2 when I started kindergarten, and had to write, of
course. At that age, I didn't have the fine motor skill necessary, so
I compensated by gripping my pencil on my ring finger; I still do.
It's tiring and painful. I ran across a different way of holding a
pencil or pen some years ago, and found this page of video handwriting
lessons just now
http://www.monkeysee.com/play/9112-how-to-improve-handwriting
It's a bit old-fashioned, with a grandmotherly lady teaching writing,
but one of the videos -- the one titled "Essentials Elements of
Handwriting," about a third of the way in -- demonstrates this
alternate hold, where the pencil lies between the index and middle
fingers. Ian might find it less tiring.
Nancy
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I don't think anyone here said don't help or support you child IF she wants to do something even "schoolish"
If my child wanted to get better at writing I would supply her with calligraphy books or whatever I found that could help him/her.
But if they did not do any of it I would not force them.
SO your dd is 21 and has bad handwriting. I know many that were forced to write in school and have terrible handwritting.
My older brother was like that.
He hated it and did not care. I loved calligraphy books and my handwriting is CRAZY.
Every line can be different but I can make it look good if I want.
Does your dd want to get better at it?
If yes, what is stopping her from pursuing it?
Medical doctors are known to have terrible handwriting.
People think its kind of funny and even expected.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
help, I'd supply it. My daughter is 21 and writes the same way as she
did when she was six. We did School in a Box for the first year, and
that's pretty much how she writes now; she doesn't even have a
signature per se. I didn't want to be pushy, so she typed instead,
and still does when she can, but being unable to write is a pain when
you're 21.
I was only 4 1/2 when I started kindergarten, and had to write, of
course. At that age, I didn't have the fine motor skill necessary, so
I compensated by gripping my pencil on my ring finger; I still do.
It's tiring and painful. I ran across a different way of holding a
pencil or pen some years ago, and found this page of video handwriting
lessons just now
http://www.monkeyse e.com/play/ 9112-how- to-improve- handwriting
It's a bit old-fashioned, with a grandmotherly lady teaching writing,
but one of the videos -- the one titled "Essentials Elements of
Handwriting, " about a third of the way in -- demonstrates this
alternate hold, where the pencil lies between the index and mid....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If my child wanted to get better at writing I would supply her with calligraphy books or whatever I found that could help him/her.
But if they did not do any of it I would not force them.
SO your dd is 21 and has bad handwriting. I know many that were forced to write in school and have terrible handwritting.
My older brother was like that.
He hated it and did not care. I loved calligraphy books and my handwriting is CRAZY.
Every line can be different but I can make it look good if I want.
Does your dd want to get better at it?
If yes, what is stopping her from pursuing it?
Medical doctors are known to have terrible handwriting.
People think its kind of funny and even expected.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
>I may take some heat for suggesting this, but, if your son wants some
help, I'd supply it. My daughter is 21 and writes the same way as she
did when she was six. We did School in a Box for the first year, and
that's pretty much how she writes now; she doesn't even have a
signature per se. I didn't want to be pushy, so she typed instead,
and still does when she can, but being unable to write is a pain when
you're 21.
I was only 4 1/2 when I started kindergarten, and had to write, of
course. At that age, I didn't have the fine motor skill necessary, so
I compensated by gripping my pencil on my ring finger; I still do.
It's tiring and painful. I ran across a different way of holding a
pencil or pen some years ago, and found this page of video handwriting
lessons just now
http://www.monkeyse e.com/play/ 9112-how- to-improve- handwriting
It's a bit old-fashioned, with a grandmotherly lady teaching writing,
but one of the videos -- the one titled "Essentials Elements of
Handwriting, " about a third of the way in -- demonstrates this
alternate hold, where the pencil lies between the index and mid....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> SO your dd is 21 and has bad handwriting. <<<<My handwriting is atrocious. It really hasn't been a hardship. I was
secretary for some time and student worker in an office setting for longer
than that (being a career student once in college). My handwriting wasn't
even noticed. At some point, I started using a block print cursive which I
copied off a friend who writes the same way. Much easier for me than
regular cursive any day and it was pretty consistently legible compared to
my crazy attempt at regular cursive. I am a fairly good typist so that's
mostly how I communicated on the job.. email and memos. For forms to be
filled out, I frequently let student workers with excellent handwriting do
those for me. :) They didn't mind.
>>>> I know many that were forced to write in school and have terriblehandwritting.My older brother was like that. He hated it and did not care. I
loved calligraphy books and my handwriting is CRAZY. <<<<
I enjoyed trying my hand at calligraphy, which sometimes turned out pretty
and often didn't. I don't have a consistent hand, so it's not likely to get
better except with tons of practice which I don't want to do at this point.
:) Maybe someday I will.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
I remember being a new unschooler, many moons ago now, and wanting to grab onto things that could help me relax with some confidence that the things my kids were enjoying the most were exactly what they needed to be doing--and they were, in fact, the things that would "build skills." Bring in the fun and the rest will happen.
Joanna
>I hear you about not bringing things in just for "skill building." I thought about that when I made those recommendations, but I also think that there's a place that's o.k. for new unschoolers to start seeing the skill building happening, or at least recognize the possibility/probability that it's happening, with stuff that is really fun and cool. Like building a bridge to trusting that the really fun, cool stuff is where it's at.
> <<<<and works the hand muscles.
> >
> > And I agree with the last suggestion of finding other hand-eye builders.
> > >>>>
>
> There's an idea in here worth examining.
>
> I would caution especially new unschoolers from buying, or strewing, or
> bringing stuff in BECAUSE it will be a hand-eye or fine motor skills
> builder.
I remember being a new unschooler, many moons ago now, and wanting to grab onto things that could help me relax with some confidence that the things my kids were enjoying the most were exactly what they needed to be doing--and they were, in fact, the things that would "build skills." Bring in the fun and the rest will happen.
> Bring the stuff in, even exactly the same stuff, with the joyful attitudeI agree!
> and intention of supporting your child's interests and passions, and let the
> hand/eye take care of itself. (Because it will!)
>
Joanna
Jenny C
> <<<<and works the hand muscles.builders.
> >
> > And I agree with the last suggestion of finding other hand-eye
> > >>>>I've told this story before, but it's been a long time, so some people
>
> There's an idea in here worth examining.
>
may remember it and some maybe not...
When Chamille was in the 4/5 age range, she went to a preschool/daycare
place. During her time there, they worked a little on writing skills,
mostly holding a pencil and writing one's name. Chamille wouldn't do
it.
The instructors there kindly suggested that I take her to this free
evaluation clinic. They were giving free dental exams, so I went.
Everyone that went had to check in at each evaluation station. One of
them was the fine and large motor skill evaluation.
They had Chamille sit down and write her name and she wouldn't do it.
She wouldn't even pick up the pencil and when she did, she didn't hold
it right because she didn't want to. The experts there told me that she
was going to need to get her help to develop her fine motor skills.
They did something similar with the large motor skills because she
wouldn't walk across the balance beam thing without doing it backwards
on her tippy toes and that didn't count.
The thing is, Chamille had been using real scissors, not the child
safety ones, for a few years at that point, cutting out intricate shapes
in all kinds of things. Not only that, she was helping me in the
kitchen all the time using sharp knives to cut veggies and things. She
had also mastered knot tying, tying her shoes, tying things to chairs,
several different kinds of knots, and used them in a variety of ways.
In my thinking, this was not a child lacking in fine motor skills, nor
was a child walking backwards in a perfect straight line on a balance
beam, a child lacking in large motor skills.
There was an assumption being made by the experts about what qualified
as fine and large motor skills, and it had to do with ONLY using a
pencil. It was a big light bulb moment for me, one that ultimately led
me to unschooling. The idea that experts don't always know what they
are talking about and if they couldn't see beyond using a pencil, they
could just be wrong about a lot of child development things.
I left that place right then and there and didn't finish going through
the rest of the clinic. I spent a small amount of time trying to see
why she didn't like writing, and realized that was just it, writing, she
used pencils and crayons and pens for all kinds of drawing, some very
detailed. I dropped the whole notion of teaching a child to write,
especially when I realized that she got a lot of letters backwards and
couldn't distinguish the difference between a lot of letters.
Well if that was a skill that was going to be required and even pushed
for in kindergarten, then Chamille clearly wasn't ready for that, so I
didn't send her. I looked into enrolling her in a sign language
immersion school but was denied, so that was that, I kept her home.
It's sad really, all the skills that schools and child development
experts miss in their search for sameness in children's abilities.
Jenny C
> I may take some heat for suggesting this, but, if your son wants somePerhaps she got stuck in that because she was forced to do it and hated
> help, I'd supply it. My daughter is 21 and writes the same way as she
> did when she was six. We did School in a Box for the first year, and
> that's pretty much how she writes now; she doesn't even have a
> signature per se. I didn't want to be pushy, so she typed instead,
> and still does when she can, but being unable to write is a pain when
> you're 21.
it and never really got over that dislike and association of disliking
handwriting because of the force that went with it.
Chamille is almost 15 and still doesn't write much, she gets letters and
numbers backwards still. Nothing that I could teach or show her, would
change that. Her handwriting is really cute, she doesn't think so, but
it's got an artistic element to it, like each letter is hand crafted. I
noticed her doing that many years ago and encouraged her ability to draw
a letter rather than write it.
She had to learn how to sign her name because she has a debit card. She
sat down and practiced and found a way to write her name that was
legible and satisfactory to her. She still rarely writes, she types,
but she CAN write, even if it is painful for her.
Jay Ford
My 14 yr old daughter was telling me that she thought her handwriting was terrible and that she was working on improving it. I happened to be at work one day and one of my coworkers, a 26 yr old guy with a doctorate AND a masters of public health had left behind a written list of some sort (not private or personal, but along the order of a grocery list). Since it was destined for the trash can I brought it home to show my daughter. His writing is very similar to hers. It made her relax a bit. I think some of her schooled friends had been ragging on her writing and it helped to know that those who have been in or are in school don't necessarily have better writing.
Jay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cathyandgarth
My DD is also more into the art part of creating letters. I got the beginning Italics handwriting book, the adult version of the Italics handwriting book (which shows way more cool styles of handwriting), and the book with the worksheets (which I made a bunch of photocopies of) -- I went with these because the letters are pretty as well as functional. Sometimes we both sit down and just have fun writing letters, sometimes she pulls them out and enjoys just looking at the different ways to make letters, sometimes she will trace and write some letters. I got it to strew because she was interested in making letters, but not because we needed a handwriting curriculum -- and truth be told, my own interest in handwriting was also behind the purchase.
My older son, being of a very different personality, was completely uninterested, but he knows that we have the books should he ever want to sneak them into his room and look at them. Right now he is a stealth learner, never really wants me to know anything he is working on, might surprise me one day with his amazing handwriting or NOT. I am sure that if he ever needed to learn to write clearly (and given his current passions I'd say he won't actually run into that issue) he will just take a little time and get it figured out. After all, at 38 I am having fun messing around with the Italics books and trying to improve my own handwriting.
Cathy
My older son, being of a very different personality, was completely uninterested, but he knows that we have the books should he ever want to sneak them into his room and look at them. Right now he is a stealth learner, never really wants me to know anything he is working on, might surprise me one day with his amazing handwriting or NOT. I am sure that if he ever needed to learn to write clearly (and given his current passions I'd say he won't actually run into that issue) he will just take a little time and get it figured out. After all, at 38 I am having fun messing around with the Italics books and trying to improve my own handwriting.
Cathy
Sandra Dodd
-=-The last time was when he was 10 and he was in a play. The kids had
to read it out loud, which he wasn't comfortable with (even though he
could do it). He had the play memorized before anyone else, including
kids much older than him--which went a long way towards helping him
build his confidence. -=-
Holly was in a play and in a theatrical/dance performance of a book,
before she could read. I read them to her, and she learned not only
her own part, but everyone else's parts, without even trying to.
It really surprised me, because I grew up thinking that without
reading people were helpless and ignorant. Those kids in those two
productions who COULD read were depending on it to the point that they
couldn't NOT read.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to read it out loud, which he wasn't comfortable with (even though he
could do it). He had the play memorized before anyone else, including
kids much older than him--which went a long way towards helping him
build his confidence. -=-
Holly was in a play and in a theatrical/dance performance of a book,
before she could read. I read them to her, and she learned not only
her own part, but everyone else's parts, without even trying to.
It really surprised me, because I grew up thinking that without
reading people were helpless and ignorant. Those kids in those two
productions who COULD read were depending on it to the point that they
couldn't NOT read.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graberamy
> My 14 yr old daughter was telling me that she thought her handwriting was terrible and that she was working on improving it.>>>My 11yo dd went through the same thing this year. One of the neighbors told her she had terrible handwriting and that she wouldn't pass in school if she couldn't write cursive.
>>>I think some of her schooled friends had been ragging on her writing and it helped to know that those who have been in or are in school don't necessarily have better writing.>>>>
Lydia was actually planning on going to school this year to see what it was all about, so this concerned her a bit. When she got there she realized she did write quite a bit slower than the rest of her peers but also noticed she could out type them. I explained to her that writing, was just like any skill, it would improve if you want to work on it. She did and it did.
She didn't spend a whole lot of time on it, just enough that she sped up a bit. I'm not sure why schools spend so much time worrying on hand writing? I hardly write anymore and if I had a cool blackberry I would probably never write!:)
Also, since I came to Always learning when I was worried about Lydia going to school I thought I should mention that she's back home full time.
She first went to our neighborhood school and hated it after the first quarter. In less than one quarter she realized that the hoops you jump through are not worth the time put in. At first she thought she was really behind but she quickly caught up and could do the work, but really didn't like the work they were assigning.
So, she switched to the Montessori school where her bro goes for lunch and PE (:)). She was there up until a few weeks ago. She enjoyed this school quite a bit more, it was definitely more laid back and she has/d the greatest teacher. But a few weeks ago she told me, that it was ok but that home was better.
It's great to have her back!
It was such a strange time having my kids at school. I thought I would have some free time to myself but the reality was that I was just driving and we were prepping for school everyday. With all the activities that the kids are in on top of it, it was a crazy life!
Oh, one more thing about handwriting. Lydia and Graham both take this art class with a teacher they love. The teacher has these optional drawing lessons and my kids have been drawing crazy lately...both their handwriting has improved because of this...imo. She has them draw the pictures upside down, said she likes them to pay attention to the lines. ???
amy g
iowa
Joanna Murphy
> Holly was in a play and in a theatrical/dance performance of a book,Yes--exactly! Joshua had everyone else's lines memorized as well--and he never really tried. He read things over a bit at home, and once or twice through at the theater at he had it. And I remember the agony of trying to memorize a poem in high school to recite--I couldn't do it. I know that I have a disconnect that my kids do not have.
> before she could read. I read them to her, and she learned not only
> her own part, but everyone else's parts, without even trying to.
>
> It really surprised me, because I grew up thinking that without
> reading people were helpless and ignorant. Those kids in those two
> productions who COULD read were depending on it to the point that they
> couldn't NOT read.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=Yes--exactly! Joshua had everyone else's lines memorized as well--
and he never really tried. He read things over a bit at home, and once
or twice through at the theater at he had it. And I remember the agony
of trying to memorize a poem in high school to recite--I couldn't do
it. I know that I have a disconnect that my kids do not have.=-
I've seen it happen with music and sewing/crafts, too. I think it's a
similar thing, but I'm not positive.
Some people can't play anything on an instrument if they don't have
music to follow, nor sew anything unless they have a full-sized paper
pattern for cutting out the pieces.
Maybe those aren't really the same thing, but those occurred to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and he never really tried. He read things over a bit at home, and once
or twice through at the theater at he had it. And I remember the agony
of trying to memorize a poem in high school to recite--I couldn't do
it. I know that I have a disconnect that my kids do not have.=-
I've seen it happen with music and sewing/crafts, too. I think it's a
similar thing, but I'm not positive.
Some people can't play anything on an instrument if they don't have
music to follow, nor sew anything unless they have a full-sized paper
pattern for cutting out the pieces.
Maybe those aren't really the same thing, but those occurred to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> It really surprised me, because I grew up thinking that withoutreading people were helpless and ignorant. Those kids in those two
productions who COULD read were depending on it to the point that they
couldn't NOT read. <<<<
What surprises me is the accuracy of Karl's improper reading. The emphasis
is on meaning not decoding. We're not talking about words here but
numbers. It's so interesting.
Today we were playing Alice Greenfingers together. Karl read a number as
"zero zero four" and described the price of the shed as "four hundred" "One
four" apparently means he has "forty one" dollars. And then too "zero five"
to his eyes means "fifty" is the amount required at the shop to buy the
chicken he wants.
He's reading right to left very consistently yet he knows the meaning of
what he's reading. ?? I am just bowled over by that. He's developing his
skills in his own way. I am enjoying watching what he does with it.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Around here, with Jayn, these are the kind of learning and skills
development that happen automatically and continually as a happy side
effect
of having fun and following her passions. I occasionally notice them
after
the fact, after a leap has been made, but I emphatically don't watch for
them to happen. That would be putting a filter between me and my
daughter.=-
This is really important, the idea of not having a layer of "stuff"
between a parent and child. The more directly you can be with your
child, and the more clearly you can see him or her and what she IS
doing, and saying, and thinking, the better their learning and your
relationship will be.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
development that happen automatically and continually as a happy side
effect
of having fun and following her passions. I occasionally notice them
after
the fact, after a leap has been made, but I emphatically don't watch for
them to happen. That would be putting a filter between me and my
daughter.=-
This is really important, the idea of not having a layer of "stuff"
between a parent and child. The more directly you can be with your
child, and the more clearly you can see him or her and what she IS
doing, and saying, and thinking, the better their learning and your
relationship will be.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
their observations of child development into an abstract statement on
the "typical" or "average" child is that it eventually becomes like
the plot of a well known story in the minds of those who use that
statement as a reference.
In the story of Goldilocks, there are three bears. Introduce a fourth
bear or have only two bears and the story isn't different, it's
"wrong". Anybody can see that. It's Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
That's how the story goes.
In the story of How Children Grow Up that many adults carry around in
their heads, there can be expectations imposed on a child that
likewise come from no more than a belief that "this is how the story
goes".
There might be a genuine sense of discomfort if a child is not
sticking to the plot and that has to be addressed by the adult
somehow. Pushing the onus onto the child to conform to the "norm" is
probably the easiest way to 'make things right', even though the
"norm" is an artificially established one.
Institutions like school tend to favour this kind of 'left brain'
thinking, unfortunately, but it's something that may well be
unavoidable when dealing with large groups of people.
I'm glad it's not part of my life any more.
Something else - I encountered this idea somewhere recently (maybe it
was here, I don't recall) and it makes a lot of sense.
Let's say there's such a thing as "Everything you need to know about
[insert subject here] to be a successful adult."
So, in theory, a child would have, say, 20 years to learn that
"everything" before they reach adulthood.
In the case of my unschooled son, it doesn't matter to me if he waits
until he's nineteen and then learns "everything he needs to know" in
one year of focussed attention, as long as he knows what he needs to
know by the time he's an adult (although, in fact, he may choose not
to learn it, there's always that option).
With child development drones and school teachers, the child is
expected to learn a specified amount of the "everything" each year.
So, by the time the child starts high school, he or she 'should' have
learned, say, 50% of "everything there is to know". If a child hasn't
achieved that, then "obviously" there's something wrong with the
child. Not, of course, with the method of measuring progress. That
was devised by 'experts'.
I'm reminded of an episode of Duckula from years ago when an American
couple are doing the grand tour of European cities and are visiting
the Louvre in Paris. The lady calls out to the man, who's in another
room, something like, "Oh look, Harry, it's the Mona Lisa." And the
man calls back, "Take a picture of it and I'll look at it when we get
home."
Today's random neural firings. :-)
Bob
>I suspect that what happens when experts (real or imagined) codify
>
>
>
> It's sad really, all the skills that schools and child development
> experts miss in their search for sameness in children's abilities.
>
their observations of child development into an abstract statement on
the "typical" or "average" child is that it eventually becomes like
the plot of a well known story in the minds of those who use that
statement as a reference.
In the story of Goldilocks, there are three bears. Introduce a fourth
bear or have only two bears and the story isn't different, it's
"wrong". Anybody can see that. It's Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
That's how the story goes.
In the story of How Children Grow Up that many adults carry around in
their heads, there can be expectations imposed on a child that
likewise come from no more than a belief that "this is how the story
goes".
There might be a genuine sense of discomfort if a child is not
sticking to the plot and that has to be addressed by the adult
somehow. Pushing the onus onto the child to conform to the "norm" is
probably the easiest way to 'make things right', even though the
"norm" is an artificially established one.
Institutions like school tend to favour this kind of 'left brain'
thinking, unfortunately, but it's something that may well be
unavoidable when dealing with large groups of people.
I'm glad it's not part of my life any more.
Something else - I encountered this idea somewhere recently (maybe it
was here, I don't recall) and it makes a lot of sense.
Let's say there's such a thing as "Everything you need to know about
[insert subject here] to be a successful adult."
So, in theory, a child would have, say, 20 years to learn that
"everything" before they reach adulthood.
In the case of my unschooled son, it doesn't matter to me if he waits
until he's nineteen and then learns "everything he needs to know" in
one year of focussed attention, as long as he knows what he needs to
know by the time he's an adult (although, in fact, he may choose not
to learn it, there's always that option).
With child development drones and school teachers, the child is
expected to learn a specified amount of the "everything" each year.
So, by the time the child starts high school, he or she 'should' have
learned, say, 50% of "everything there is to know". If a child hasn't
achieved that, then "obviously" there's something wrong with the
child. Not, of course, with the method of measuring progress. That
was devised by 'experts'.
I'm reminded of an episode of Duckula from years ago when an American
couple are doing the grand tour of European cities and are visiting
the Louvre in Paris. The lady calls out to the man, who's in another
room, something like, "Oh look, Harry, it's the Mona Lisa." And the
man calls back, "Take a picture of it and I'll look at it when we get
home."
Today's random neural firings. :-)
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
tell you what I want to say so I'll write it down and send it to you."
It's the same with musical notation. It was originally for the benefit
of people who couldn't be physically present at the time.
Back in my dim distant days as a folk musician (fiddle and button
accordian), if I wanted to learn a new tune, I found somebody who
knew it and got them to show me how to play it. If I couldn't do
that, I looked for a recording of it. If I couldn't find a recording,
I looked for the tune written down somewhere. Learning the tune from
sheet music was a last resort, nowhere near as useful as hearing the
tune or, better still, seeing it played as well.
And, of course, it was always hearing the tune in the first place
that made me want to learn it, not seeing it written down in the form
of musical notation.
Bob
>Yes, isn't that why writing was invented? "You're not here for me to
>
> Writing has very little to do with learning--it has more to do with communicating, which is a process going out the other direction.
>
>
tell you what I want to say so I'll write it down and send it to you."
It's the same with musical notation. It was originally for the benefit
of people who couldn't be physically present at the time.
Back in my dim distant days as a folk musician (fiddle and button
accordian), if I wanted to learn a new tune, I found somebody who
knew it and got them to show me how to play it. If I couldn't do
that, I looked for a recording of it. If I couldn't find a recording,
I looked for the tune written down somewhere. Learning the tune from
sheet music was a last resort, nowhere near as useful as hearing the
tune or, better still, seeing it played as well.
And, of course, it was always hearing the tune in the first place
that made me want to learn it, not seeing it written down in the form
of musical notation.
Bob
m_aduhene
hi,
i found this old post and thought i would just say that we just went today to look round a school becos my dd (8) wants to go and try school for the first time. she is very excited about it and is really looking forward to starting. i feel kinda sad. i've always said, when i decided not to send my children to school, that if they ever wanted to try it out they could. now that moment is here i really will miss her. she goes in september becos school finishes here in a week. i am not worried for her much she is sociable and confident and i am certainly not worried about where she will be academically. i just hope it doen't change my dd too much. she knows she can leave as soon as she wants to. i do see the scenario of her (hopefully) preferring home but i am not predicting anything at this stage.
will keep u posted on how things go.
blessings
michelle
i found this old post and thought i would just say that we just went today to look round a school becos my dd (8) wants to go and try school for the first time. she is very excited about it and is really looking forward to starting. i feel kinda sad. i've always said, when i decided not to send my children to school, that if they ever wanted to try it out they could. now that moment is here i really will miss her. she goes in september becos school finishes here in a week. i am not worried for her much she is sociable and confident and i am certainly not worried about where she will be academically. i just hope it doen't change my dd too much. she knows she can leave as soon as she wants to. i do see the scenario of her (hopefully) preferring home but i am not predicting anything at this stage.
will keep u posted on how things go.
blessings
michelle
Sandra Dodd
-=-she knows she can leave as soon as she wants to. i do see the
scenario of her (hopefully) preferring home but i am not predicting
anything at this stage.=-
I hope she has a great time either way, and it's wonderful that she
can come home if she wants to. That all by itself will make her
experience at school different than it would be if she felt trapped.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scenario of her (hopefully) preferring home but i am not predicting
anything at this stage.=-
I hope she has a great time either way, and it's wonderful that she
can come home if she wants to. That all by itself will make her
experience at school different than it would be if she felt trapped.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Marty is taking an English 102 sort of class, Analytical Writing. He didn't think he was going to like it, and was afraid to write, but he's perked up and is having fun.
Holly takes math. But holly writes on twitter, and sometimes (not often) her blog, and sometimes on Facebook.
Yesterday Holly and I went to buy her a clip board, for a music group she's in, and a committee she's on. We talked about the smaller clip boards, and I showed her the small "legal pads" that go on them. Even full-size top-bound American tablets aren't "legal pads," because our legal paper was 14" long, and "school paper" and business paper, 11" inches long.
Those kinds of paper sizes affect the lengths of letters, sometimes, and school papers ("write three pages on..."). But Holly writes with her phone, and with a computer, and for short bursts. Here are two of her fairly-recent tweets:
"Real Oldies 1600 AM is only in memories anymore. The harmonies will always play in my heart."
"Fight the bite. Pink allergy meds and Benadryl cream. Breathe, breathe."
She could write more, but more wouldn't be better. She expressed emotion in ways some writers never can.
I'm sharing this in case there is even a single mom here who thinks that school-report type writing is "real writing." It is not. This post is real writing. Holly's tweets are real writing. School reports are written for a teacher who doesn't need the information being presented. It's practice. It's a drill, in case the person were to want to write for real. :-/
Look for quality, not quantity!
There are stories of unschooled kids doing well when they are in "real writing" classes, but that came from their years of using words in honest, real ways, to communicate. http://sandradodd.com/teen/writing
Sandra
Holly takes math. But holly writes on twitter, and sometimes (not often) her blog, and sometimes on Facebook.
Yesterday Holly and I went to buy her a clip board, for a music group she's in, and a committee she's on. We talked about the smaller clip boards, and I showed her the small "legal pads" that go on them. Even full-size top-bound American tablets aren't "legal pads," because our legal paper was 14" long, and "school paper" and business paper, 11" inches long.
Those kinds of paper sizes affect the lengths of letters, sometimes, and school papers ("write three pages on..."). But Holly writes with her phone, and with a computer, and for short bursts. Here are two of her fairly-recent tweets:
"Real Oldies 1600 AM is only in memories anymore. The harmonies will always play in my heart."
"Fight the bite. Pink allergy meds and Benadryl cream. Breathe, breathe."
She could write more, but more wouldn't be better. She expressed emotion in ways some writers never can.
I'm sharing this in case there is even a single mom here who thinks that school-report type writing is "real writing." It is not. This post is real writing. Holly's tweets are real writing. School reports are written for a teacher who doesn't need the information being presented. It's practice. It's a drill, in case the person were to want to write for real. :-/
Look for quality, not quantity!
There are stories of unschooled kids doing well when they are in "real writing" classes, but that came from their years of using words in honest, real ways, to communicate. http://sandradodd.com/teen/writing
Sandra