Maria

I'm not sure if I introduced myself, so in short, I've a 3 year old
boy who I've decided we'll unschool, since it seems natural and from
all the reading of different types of home education the one that
makes the most sense.

Now to my question, background first:

I mostly grew up without a TV. From the time I was 7 until I was 16,
we didn't have a TV and only borrowed one for the Olympics. At first,
the reason we didn't have one was because our original one broke and
we were so poor we couldn't even afford to get it fixed (out of work
pastor with 8 children, I'm surprised we even had clothes!). I
suppose my parents just decided it was better not to have (perhaps
because we were the pastor's family and needed to set an example, or
perhaps because we went to a Mennonite school, I'll never know) and
for some reason I developed a stigma attached to TV. Later in HS, my
parents were very restrictive of what we could watch - if my younger
siblings couldn't watch it, than neither could we (of course, my
younger brothers were allowed to watch as much sports as they wanted).
I watched a lot of things I wasn't "allowed" to while babysitting (I
loved babysitting for people who had a TV!).

I managed to live without a TV in college (too many other things to
do), and I lived in Japan for 5 years, so my husband and I mostly
watched shows when they came out on DVD (we have quite the collection!).

So, where am I going with this? Well, a little less than a year ago,
we decided to get rid of our TV and DVD player. I found that not only
was I "addicted" to it (I realized how bad it was when I shushed my
husband during a show, and the thought occurred to me that I was doing
what my parents in HS when we had a TV did that really hurt me), and I
was using it as a babysitter for Seth. I also had been doing some
reading ("The Plug-in Drug") and was convinced of the evils of TV.
However, lately, I've been reading on a lot of unschooling sites about
the benefits of TV (which make sense to me), and between the time
we've gotten rid of the TV I've allowed Seth to watch shows and movies
on DVD or on Netflix, so it's not like we're totally TV-free (and
despite all his watching, he's very articulate, which I attribute to
watching certain shows). My biggest gripe with TV is the commercial
programming, and the cost to just get basic channels (we live in an
apartment, so we can't get an antenna). Right now, my biggest
struggle is the fact that it seems like all Seth wants to do is "watch
a movie". I'm cool with Caillou and Curious George (esp. CG), and he
also likes Eloise and Harold and the Purple Crayon. And, since we use
our computer to watch, I can't use the computer while he's watching.
He also likes to play and watch (do any other kids do that?), which
drives me up the wall, not only because I'm rather sensitive to
multiple sources of noise, but also because I'd also like to use the
computer, and if he's not really watching it, then I'll turn of the
show (which leads to a meltdown).

So, any thoughts? Should we just get a TV/DVD player and let him
watch as much as he wants, even it's all day and it's annoying Mommy?
I'm trying to find freedom, not license, as A.S. Neill would say, but
I don't seem to know how to do that.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Maria

Sandra Dodd

-=-and despite all his watching, he's very articulate-=-

I would guess it would be BECAUSE of watching he would be more
articulate. There are people in there speaking all kinds of English
in all sorts of accents, some from now, and some as far back as the
1930s. You couldn't do all those things for him if you read to him
five hours a day and talked to him the rest of the time.

-=-He also likes to play and watch (do any other kids do that?), which
drives me up the wall, -=-

Only the smart ones.

If being driven up the wall is going to be that close to the surface
for you, you might want to find some stress-relieving things in your
life. Mediation or yoga are hard with a toddler in the house. Brisk
walks outside might not be easy if you're in an apartment. Think of
something to do, though, because he needs a mom who's not up the wall.

-=- Should we just get a TV/DVD player and let him
watch as much as he wants, even it's all day and it's annoying Mommy?-=-

You don't really refer to yourself as "Mommy" to a three year old, do
you? It's an indirect form of communication and isn't the greatest
for nurturing a direct relationship with him as a person.

"Just" you had in your question.
"Should we just..."

Questions with "just" often reveal what the questioner thinks is a bad
answer. I think you should get a TV and DVD player wholeheartedly.
Generously. Maybe a portable one with headphones. Would he wear
wireless headphones, maybe?

-=and let him watch as much as he wants-=-

When you ask it that way, the only alternative is "don't let him watch
as much as he wants." Those aren't the only two choices. But "don't
let him watch" isn't a great choice in any case.

Find things you like that he likes. Find things you've never seen
that he likes that you can enjoy too. If the DVDs he watches are just
for him, kid-stuff, none of your business, then you're maintaining a
babysitting relationship there with the TV. If the two of you find
things to do together that's altogether different. YOU can do things
while the movie's on too. Maybe on your computer. Maybe in the
kitchen. And he can play with toys. And you can both sing along on
the songs.

http://sandradodd.com/movies might have movies you could enjoy
together, and it will have some that might be therapeutic for getting
you nearer to understanding unschooling, too!

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

emiLy Q.

I would get a portable DVD player if I were you. Then you can take it in
the car and other places too! It really helps for long drives.

We have this one - our first one wore out and we liked it so much we got the
same exact one. We'll probably be getting another one so our kids can watch
different things in the car, and also because I'm going to be putting their
seats farther away from each other.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=6560781

I think it's great that your son plays and watches. Better than sitting
there and watching. When my kids get really really into something else,
sometimes I'll turn the TV off. If they want it back on, it goes back on --
no meltdown required.

If the sound really bothers you maybe you can put earplugs in or listen to
music on an ipod or something?

-emiLy, mom to Delia (5) & Henry (1.5)
The EC Store
http://www.TheECstore.com

Robyn L. Coburn

> He also likes to play and watch (do any other kids do that?), which
> drives me up the wall, not only because I'm rather sensitive to
> multiple sources of noise, but also because I'd also like to use the
> computer, and if he's not really watching it, then I'll turn of the
> show (which leads to a meltdown).>>>>

In addition to all that is already collected at Sandra's site....

If your dh assumed that you weren't paying attention to your computer
because you were having a conversation with your son at the same time, or
had walked away to get a cup of coffee or something, and so walked in and
switched it off, wouldn't you react with some annoyance?

It sure is ironic to have someone grumbling that their kid is doing other
stuff while watching tv. Most people are worried if their kids seem to be
too attentive and not doing other play at the same time. They use words like
"drones", "zombies", "locked in". They talk about "addiction" instead of
"passion", "interested", "fascinated", "absorbed", "excited" or even
"relaxing" and "entertained".

My experience is that Jayn, now 9, has always been perfectly able to absorb
and be interested in her shows or movies while drawing, playing with dolls,
playing computer games, playing cards, doing puzzles, sewing, crafting,
eating, wrestling with daddy, or making up stories. She also sometimes wants
the tv off, usually when we are doing a doll scenario together. Sometimes we
will have the sound off with the picture going on.

I use foam earplugs when I'm feeling sensitive and want to lessen the impact
of noises around me if I am using my computer, or when sleeping. The foam
earplugs muffle noise without being totally soundproofing. They can make the
difference between being constantly distracted and irritated, and being
comfortable while freeing Jayn for her watching and play. I still hear her
if she calls me from across the room.

My idea here is that it's up to me to attend to my own comfort rather than
have unreasonable expectations from those around me that would cause them
emotional hardship. Asking a 3 year old not to play at the same time as
watching his tv shows seems an unreasonable expectation. If he were running
in circles and screaming at the top of his lungs...well that might mean time
to go to the park for a big run and play.

If you don't want to get a tv, perhaps a portable dvd player. I would
recommend getting him his own laptop computer pretty soon. It sure made my
life easier when we got Jayn her own for internet surfing and computer
gaming. She is now on to her second one. It amazes me to think that as
recently as 12 or 13 years ago they cost several thousand dollars, and were
thicker, heavier and slower than even the cheapest versions are today.

You can safely ignore all those studies, which are done on schooled kids,
and frankly are often goofy if you read how they set up their research
situations. Watch your son instead. Talk to him about what he is seeing with
the same sense of positive interest that you would if he was showing you the
flower he just found in the garden. I mean don't be looking for
opportunities to criticize or teach something.

I wish I liked Caillou more. I find it very schooly, lots of "going to
school soon" propaganda. But that's just me. Your son might love him. Lots
of great shows for very littles on Disney in the morning. Also Jayn loved
Bob the Builder and Max & Ruby (sigh). She used to like Wiggles, but can't
abide them now. Now her favorite shows are Family Guy, American Dad, Ghost
Whisperer, various cooking shows, How Clean is Your House, and a few shows
on Disney. (Jury still out on the new sitcom, Sonny With A Chance).

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

>
> So, any thoughts? Should we just get a TV/DVD player and let him
> watch as much as he wants, even it's all day and it's annoying Mommy?
> I'm trying to find freedom, not license, as A.S. Neill would say, but
> I don't seem to know how to do that.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Maria
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/2009 2:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:

<<<Now her favorite shows are Family Guy,>>>



I had huge reservations about this show when Wyl found it. I'm still not
fond of it, but it is *huge* on social commentary. That show has sparked more
deep social conversation between Wyl and I (and occasionally Dave) than all the
other shows combined, probably. In a way, I'm glad for it, because even
though the subject matter is often uncomfortable, it spurs Wyl to ask, which
frees me to answer directly, rather than trying to find the "right" time to bring
it up. Or avoiding it all together because of my discomfort. It didn't take
more than one or two questions for me to relax a lot about my discomfort-it
wasn't nearly as difficult (or embarrassing) as I thought it would be!
Speaking of which, I had something I wanted input on, but I'll put that in another
post.

Peace,
De
**************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I mostly grew up without a TV. From the time I was 7 until I was 16,
> we didn't have a TV and only borrowed one for the Olympics.

I grew up without a TV for the first part of my childhood and my parents
finally got a TV when we were a bit older. It was a black and white,
when everyone around us had color TV's. Even when we did have TV, we
were only allowed to watch every once in a while. My sister and I would
go through the TV guide to pick out our shows, because we had to agree,
and then we would watch only those ones and it couldn't amount to more
than one hour a day and it couldn't interfere with dinner time.

I remember feeling really anxious if we were out and about, or eating
out at a restaurant, wondering if we'd get home in time to watch the
whole show that we'd picked out.

The scarcity of it, made it extremely valuable, something to work one's
schedule around.

> I watched a lot of things I wasn't "allowed" to while babysitting (I
> loved babysitting for people who had a TV!).

I watched Poltergeist at a friend's house without my parents knowing. I
was about 11. My parents would've been VERY mad about it. So, I
watched a scary movie, with absolutely no clue about scary movies or
that anything could give me nightmares. I was completely niave about
the whole thing, and on top of that, I had no parents to talk to about
it. That had a lasting impression on me! I didn't want to repeat that
for my own kids.


> I managed to live without a TV in college (too many other things to
> do), and I lived in Japan for 5 years, so my husband and I mostly
> watched shows when they came out on DVD (we have quite the
collection!).

I lived without TV in college too. I didn't own a TV as a young adult
until I met my husband and lived with him. I was a little resistant to
having a TV, and I had to deal with a lot of TV issues when we had our
first child. Ultimately, it seemed healthier to have a TV and not make
a big fuss over it. I could view owning a TV within the same context as
having a radio or tape deck, which is what we had then, something to use
and enjoy when I wanted to.


>
> So, where am I going with this? Well, a little less than a year ago,
> we decided to get rid of our TV and DVD player. I found that not only
> was I "addicted" to it (I realized how bad it was when I shushed my
> husband during a show, and the thought occurred to me that I was doing
> what my parents in HS when we had a TV did that really hurt me),

I think this is a natural reaction to a controlled substance. I had to
deal with similar issues. It took years to do it, but I was finally
able to have a TV on in the same room as me, and NOT watch it or pay
attention to it. It's a big deal! Now I can multi-task with the TV on
and keep up with the story and do other things. Which you've already
noticed that your child can do! It's amazing what control will do to
someone's natural abilities!

and I
> was using it as a babysitter for Seth. I also had been doing some
> reading ("The Plug-in Drug") and was convinced of the evils of TV.

It's interesting to me how some people revile an inanimate object!
Especially one that has the potential for such joy and excitement. That
title alone says a lot. TV viewed as a drug, or controlled substance
that is harmful. I've come to the conclusion that control itself is
often more harmful than the thing being controlled, and in the absence
of control, the thing has less draw, less power.


Right now, my biggest
> struggle is the fact that it seems like all Seth wants to do is "watch
> a movie". I'm cool with Caillou and Curious George (esp. CG), and he
> also likes Eloise and Harold and the Purple Crayon.

Expand even further! There is an endless world of wonderful things to
be seen in this media, live music, movies, even ones that seem to old
for him may not be.

> So, any thoughts? Should we just get a TV/DVD player and let him
> watch as much as he wants, even it's all day and it's annoying Mommy?

Happily get a TV and DVD player and go for it! Kids who aren't
controlled won't watch always and forever. We've had very little TV for
the last couple of days, nobody has been all that interested. Find a
way to make it so that it doesn't annoy you, find joy in it. Find joy
in the joy that your child gets from it.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

It is amazing how in America people FEAR TV so much.
It is very different where I grew up.
Maybe it was just my house or all the people we hung with but in Brazil people do not have the kind of relationship
with TV and Commercial adds that people have in America.
My dad was a photographer for advertising campaigns and we absolutely LOVED  commercials.
We discussed if they were good, bad,  good photography, music, jingle...and so much more.
We bonded watching things like Mutual of Omaha animal documentaries, movies and more.
We even watched Brazilian soap and discussed ( they are VERY different than the soap here)
Even opening scenes where talked about and a subject for us to evaluate.
Just for fun.
I grew up with no fear of TV. I love TV.
Sometimes I watch , sometimes not. I DVR my favorite shows. My sister still calls me to talk about a certain commercial she finds good.
My kids have the same relationship with TV we had. 
I have learned so much from watching TV and I still do.
I wish people could just see it as I do . It must be really hard to fear something so much and live thinking of ways to avoid it.
So much power being given to TV one must feel so powerless and scared.
It is hard for me to relate to the feeling.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 




________________________________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> It is amazing how in America people FEAR TV so much.


The people I know that seem to fear TV the most, seem to have a feeling that it takes control away from them. I have heard homeschoolers discussing preschoolers learning of letters for example. Someone always suggests "the letter factory" because their kids learned their letters from it. And then on a couple of occasions have heard people express their dislike for that because they want their kids to learn from THEM not from the T.V. They are so afraid they wont have control over every aspect of their kids lives.

Sandra Dodd

-=-And then on a couple of occasions have heard people express their
dislike for that because they want their kids to learn from THEM not
from the T.V. They are so afraid they wont have control over every
aspect of their kids lives.-=-

One of the first crazy things I ever read another homeschooler write
in public on the internet was "You'll be your child's only teacher!"
It was written with giddy joy.

I responded that I hoped I wasn't my child's only teacher, that I
hoped he would learn from everyone he came in contact with. Oh.
WRONG ANSWER. That's the day I learned how many people there who
didn't want ANYone influencing their kid or even looking at their kid.
<g>

I wanted mine to meet LOTS of people who knew things I didn't know. I
still count on that!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> And then on a couple of occasions have heard people express their dislike for that because they want their kids to learn from THEM not from the T.V. They are so afraid they wont have control over every aspect of their kids lives. <<<<

But sometimes there are WAY better sources of information or FAR less
painful ways of learning information. And I think many times TV fits
both of those criteria. (Not ALL the time but many times.)

~Katherine

Dina

> I wanted mine to meet LOTS of people who knew things I didn't know. I
> still count on that!

me too! i don't get that AT ALL. why homeschool and intentionally keep information from your kids? *i* learn from tv all the time. just this week i learned how to make a roux for gumbo (top chef), how thermometers are made (how things are made), and that i do not under any circumstances want to be a wealthy socialite in manhattan (yes, i watched a bit of the housewives of nyc).

dina

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-And then on a couple of occasions have heard people express their
> dislike for that because they want their kids to learn from THEM not
> from the T.V. They are so afraid they wont have control over every
> aspect of their kids lives.-=-
>
> One of the first crazy things I ever read another homeschooler write
> in public on the internet was "You'll be your child's only teacher!"
> It was written with giddy joy.
>
> I responded that I hoped I wasn't my child's only teacher, that I
> hoped he would learn from everyone he came in contact with. Oh.
> WRONG ANSWER. That's the day I learned how many people there who
> didn't want ANYone influencing their kid or even looking at their kid.
> <g>
>
> I wanted mine to meet LOTS of people who knew things I didn't know. I
> still count on that!
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Maria

Since I posted two days ago, I had only read Sandra's response, and was thinking about all that she said, with the intention of responding, and I come back and there's much! Thank you, mostly for not being too frustrated with my "baby-ness".

Having read through more of the responses and thought more about it, I've reached several conclusions:

-As natural as unschooling is, especially for a non-institutionalized child such as my son, it is so counter-cultural for me, that I'm still realizing I have a lot of deschooling to do.
-I am realizing that I have a bit of a control issue (as in I want to be in control) and my fear of allowing him to watch what he wants when he wants, makes me feel like I'm not in "control of my household" so to speak.
-I'm going to have to learn to look at things from more of a "we/us" perspective and less of a "us (parents) vs. him (child)" perspective, which goes back to the deschooling bit.
-I'm learning to be more and more leery of studies, especially since they will tell me nothing about my own child - only he can. I'm a little ashamed I didn't already know this, being attachment parenting oriented. It's a large learning curve for me, I suppose.
-Until pointed out, I never thought of the idea that watching TV would expose Seth to more diversity than books. And, just because I love books, doesn't mean that he does. After all, he can't read. And, now more than when I was growing up, there are a lot of shows! My husband, who grew up with cable, has a lot of amazing knowledge which he learned from watching the Discovery and Science channels...I was amazed, since I was taught that smart people were only so because they read and didn't watch TV. Go figure.
-I need to find things that I'll enjoy watching with Seth and he with me. I'm not going to worry about age appropriateness/censoring, since I don't believe in that sort of thing anyways. Just the other day we discovered, on Netflix the Pink Panther Cartoon Collection, which is fun for both of us! And, last weekend, my husband put on Space Balls, which we all enjoyed.
-I've decided to be glad that he plays and watches, because it's true, I wouldn't want him slack-jawed and motionless. So, I'm going to turn that annoyance into a blessing. Besides, how much different is it that I knit and watch?
-And, finally, whenever I start feeling like he's watching "too much" I'll just remind myself how I'd feel if someone restricted my reading.

For the last few days, my husband and I have been in what might be called "negotiation talks" regarding a television. Right not it's not so much whether we should get one, but rather, what kind.

Again, thank you!

Maria