Sharon Hockenbury

I will be speaking on unschooling to a group of very conservative mothers in March and I was wondering of ideas to make the message "hearable" without compromising. Using the term unschooling is going to have "negative" connotations to begin with so I am going to call it "Unforced Rhythms of Grace;
A Lifestyle of Learning."..

I would love to hear what you might have heard in your experience that persuaded you to "unschool".

On a side note about nursing. I have nursed for about 30 years.....I got a chuckle in thinking about that. I have also changed about 30,000 diapers. (I am a mother of 9).

Happy day to you all....

Sharon in the Northwest
www.sonsnaturalhealth.com
Natural Health and Healing At Your finger tips!
Loving God and Family
http://lovinggodandmyfamily.blogspot.com
Blown Glass Hummingbird Feeders
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?ref=sr_list_11&listing_id=13436929

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Sharon,

One angle you might take is to talk about how Jesus learned. If
Jewish education was anything like what is known to be traditional,
then it involved him being encouraged to ask questions, which would
have been respectfully explored with him.

Richard Prystowsky and I did a talk together once called "To Question
or Not to Question: That is the Question." We were talking about
the fact (which he, being raised Jewish by people with learning and
leisure, didn't know) that MANY Christian children are told to shut
up, be quiet, don't ask so many questions, or don't ask any
questions. He was stunned to hear some of the things I and my
relatives and friends were told as little kids. I was jealous when
I was a teen and discovered there was whole world or people who LIKE
their children, who laugh with them, and encourage them, and answer
all the question they want to ask, and that there are rabbis whose
specialty it is to discuss philosophy with little children.

Baptist kids memorize a lot of Bible verses and learn Bible stories.
Catholic kids memorize a catechism: answers to a short list of
questions, which they must answer formally in exactly those words.

Meanwhile, in neighborhoods far outside Espanola, New Mexico, there
were kids who were honestly, openly and fearlessly talking about REAL
ideas, with adults, who weren't slapping them or shaming them.

Sandra

sunya silverthorn

Hi Sharon,



(I've been reading this list for a while now and this is my first response, so I hope that I have posted correctly)


One of the persuasions that led me to unschooling was looking at Jesus' example. He lived life with the disciples, he would answer their questions, he would share stories of how to live life. He was gentle and loving. He loved the children and when the children came to him he did not turn them away. He would answer questions of people and would help them yet he never forced himself on anyone, it was their choice in which direction they would go, he was there to guide and help. He wanted people to come to him out of their own free will, not because they had to.



Unschooling to me is guiding our children by taking part in their childhood, to be here when they have questions, to be gentle and loving, help to inspire their curiosity by strewing all kinds of fun things. Being part of their lives and enjoying all kinds of fun adventures with them. Making sure their needs are met and if a need hasn't been met then find ways of meeting that need. Being an active participant in their lives and being available to them.



I've/we've been deschooling/unschooling since June of last year and in this period of time my daughter 13 has opened up more and she laughs and jokes more. She is gentle and kind. She now reads for pleasure, this is a miracle in itself. Our relationship has become very close, she comes to me now instead of friends for advice and answers and we have a lot of fun together. My son 9 took to unschooling like a fish to water, he loves doing all kinds of things and he helps keep me in shape by doing a lot of hiking, walking, playing, gardening, ect. He and his sister are best buddies they have "sleep overs" at least 2 times a week. It's been wonderful to see the joy that comes with unschooling and our family has embraced this joy.



I hope this helps Sharon,

Best whishes on your discussion and I love the title you've chosen to use.

Suncee














To: [email protected]
From: loveinthehouse@...
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:14:15 -0800
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Ideas





I will be speaking on unschooling to a group of very conservative mothers in March and I was wondering of ideas to make the message "hearable" without compromising. Using the term unschooling is going to have "negative" connotations to begin with so I am going to call it "Unforced Rhythms of Grace;
A Lifestyle of Learning."..

I would love to hear what you might have heard in your experience that persuaded you to "unschool".

On a side note about nursing. I have nursed for about 30 years.....I got a chuckle in thinking about that. I have also changed about 30,000 diapers. (I am a mother of 9).

Happy day to you all....

Sharon in the Northwest
www.sonsnaturalhealth.com
Natural Health and Healing At Your finger tips!
Loving God and Family
http://lovinggodandmyfamily.blogspot.com
Blown Glass Hummingbird Feeders
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?ref=sr_list_11&listing_id=13436929

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-He lived life with the disciples, he would answer their questions,
he would share stories of how to live life. He was gentle and loving.
He loved the children ...-=-

All true.

Also true (well, "equally true"): Jesus told his disciples to leave
their families and follow him.


I found something with lots of references. I don't want to look them
all up.

The first striking thing for anyone prepared to read the gospels is
that Jesus was no supporter of family values. He rejected his mother
more than once, just as he rejected the rest of his family. He had no
qualms about taking his disciples away from their families. The
brothers James and John abandoned their father, leaving him to manage
as best he could with the fishing nets they had been preparing
together. On one occasion, a disciple asked permission to go and bury
his dead father: "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead
bury the dead" (Matthew 8:22 c/f Luke 9:60). Jesus then refused
another potential follower who asked permission to say good-bye to his
family before abandoning them (Luke 9:61-62). This attitude was
entirely in line with Jesus' purpose: "For I am come to set a man at
variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and
the daughter in law against the mother in law" (Matthew 10:35). Jesus
consistently taught that his followers should abandon and despise
their families. Everlasting life is promised to those who leave their
homes and families (Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30 and Luke 18:29-30).
The Luke author gives Jesus' summary of his views on family life: "If
any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and
children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26, Cf. Matthew 19:29).

Everyone picks and chooses what to believe, no matter how much they
deny it. No one follows everything in the Bible, which is good.
There's a lot of sex and violence to gloss over to get to the
peace'n'love parts.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Hockenbury

"One angle you might take is to talk about how Jesus learned. If
Jewish education was anything like what is known to be traditional,
then it involved him being encouraged to ask questions, which would
have been respectfully explored with him."

Wow!! Powerful!! How did Jesus learn in a Jewish culture...I am going
to have get Josephus out and read it, do some research. That would be
a great study topic for me in general, how is learning done in other
cultures.

I know for myself, the things that I am really love were things I
researched myself. Now I am certified herbalist, natural health
educator, life coach, doula; all because I desired to know. It all
happened after I was 30.

Sharon in the Northwest...




www.sonsnaturalhealth.com
Natural Health and Healing At Your finger tips!
Loving God and Family
http://lovinggodandmyfamily.blogspot.com
Blown Glass Hummingbird Feeders
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?ref=sr_list_11&listing_id=13436929


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Sharon,
>
> One angle you might take is to talk about how Jesus learned. If
> Jewish education was anything like what is known to be traditional,
> then it involved him being encouraged to ask questions, which would
> have been respectfully explored with him.
>
> Richard Prystowsky and I did a talk together once called "To Question
> or Not to Question: That is the Question." We were talking about
> the fact (which he, being raised Jewish by people with learning and
> leisure, didn't know) that MANY Christian children are told to shut
> up, be quiet, don't ask so many questions, or don't ask any
> questions. He was stunned to hear some of the things I and my
> relatives and friends were told as little kids. I was jealous when
> I was a teen and discovered there was whole world or people who LIKE
> their children, who laugh with them, and encourage them, and answer
> all the question they want to ask, and that there are rabbis whose
> specialty it is to discuss philosophy with little children.
>
> Baptist kids memorize a lot of Bible verses and learn Bible stories.
> Catholic kids memorize a catechism: answers to a short list of
> questions, which they must answer formally in exactly those words.
>
> Meanwhile, in neighborhoods far outside Espanola, New Mexico, there
> were kids who were honestly, openly and fearlessly talking about REAL
> ideas, with adults, who weren't slapping them or shaming them.
>
> Sandra
>

saturnfire16

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Sharon,
>
> One angle you might take is to talk about how Jesus learned. If
> Jewish education was anything like what is known to be traditional,
> then it involved him being encouraged to ask questions, which would
> have been respectfully explored with him.

>
> Sandra

Another interesting tidbit about Jewish education is that when the
rabbis discuss a child learning the Torah, they literally say they
are "learning the Torah together." The rabbis feel that they have as
much to learn from the child as they have to teach.

Also, the Hebrew word for "infant" is used for children under the age
of 5. That doesn't have much to do with learning or unschooling, but
I've found that when people look at their little ones as still being
babies, things like "independence" and preschool work and chores seem
odd.

Bible times Jews didn't spank. There are some great articles on
the "rod" verses in the Bible here: aolff.com and what they actually
mean from a Hebraic perspective. Not that that has anything to do with
unschooling either, except that gentle parenting is probably a first
step to unschooling for some people.


Emily

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> Another interesting tidbit about Jewish education is that when the
> rabbis discuss a child learning the Torah, they literally say they
> are "learning the Torah together." The rabbis feel that they have as
> much to learn from the child as they have to teach. >>>>

Isn't there that gospel story about the young Jesus at 13 going to the
temple and telling the Rabbis all the answers, and them being all astonished
at his inherent knowledge and wisdom? It sounds to me a bit like another
story the meaning of which is altered in translation over time...

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

saturnfire16

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-He lived life with the disciples, he would answer their
questions,
> he would share stories of how to live life. He was gentle and
loving.
> He loved the children ...-=-
>
> All true.
>
> Also true (well, "equally true"): Jesus told his disciples to
leave
> their families and follow him.
>
>
> I found something with lots of references. I don't want to look
them
> all up.
>
> The first striking thing for anyone prepared to read the gospels
is
> that Jesus was no supporter of family values. He rejected his
mother
> more than once, just as he rejected the rest of his family. He had
no
> qualms about taking his disciples away from their families. The
> brothers James and John abandoned their father, leaving him to
manage
> as best he could with the fishing nets they had been preparing
> together. On one occasion, a disciple asked permission to go and
bury
> his dead father: "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the
dead
> bury the dead" (Matthew 8:22 c/f Luke 9:60). Jesus then refused
> another potential follower who asked permission to say good-bye to
his
> family before abandoning them (Luke 9:61-62). This attitude was
> entirely in line with Jesus' purpose: "For I am come to set a man
at
> variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother,
and
> the daughter in law against the mother in law" (Matthew 10:35).
Jesus
> consistently taught that his followers should abandon and despise
> their families. Everlasting life is promised to those who leave
their
> homes and families (Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30 and Luke 18:29-
30).
> The Luke author gives Jesus' summary of his views on family
life: "If
> any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
and
> children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
he
> cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26, Cf. Matthew 19:29).
>
> Everyone picks and chooses what to believe, no matter how much
they
> deny it. No one follows everything in the Bible, which is good.
> There's a lot of sex and violence to gloss over to get to the
> peace'n'love parts.
>
> Sandra
>

You can pull anything out of the Bible if you pick out one verse here
and one verse there. If you look at the Hebraic meaning of the words
and idioms and the over-all message, it is absolutely one of love and
family. Parts of the Bible are simply history- history is full of
sex and violence.

Marina Moses

I was reading Sandra Dodd's site as I often do these days and I stumbled into the "Do It" page. The urgency I have been feeling was made even greater. We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. The book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and this page and the Yahoo groups have been so beneficial as well as Sandra's site and Living Joyfully. I have learned so much. Even though his life of relaxed/eclectic homeschooling seemed like freedom to most who observed, I can see how it was not the relationship centered lifestyle that would develop the most peace and joy in my home. He's my youngest. My husband runs his business out of our home. My 18 year old and 22 year old live with us and we are a pretty happy family unit.

  • Back to my urgency. I am extending a lot of trust to Stevie. I believe I must but I am hanging on to a lot of fear. In his life he has always been drawn to "the risky" or "inappropriate" maybe even because he's grown up with those labels from me. The thing is, we haven't stopped him from these things but have shared our views. So for example, right now it's pretty vulgar rap music which his sister is offended by. He has gotten pretty good at playing it less around her. He'll share videos with me and we'll talk about them. He thinks they're funny. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I'll say they're womanizing or a bit lacking in vocabulary (F,F,F). He likes the music (he is a musician). I don't (I'm a bit of a Rock n Roll snob and don't hear enough guitars!) but we can have good conversations. I feel like (hopefully) I'm grasping the idea of mutual respect here in the are of what I would have once called inappropriate.

    The "risky" is where I'm having trouble. The latest is skateboarding. The skating isn't the concern even though sometimes he comes home bloody! He hangs out for a few hours each day skating with kids I don't know. One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. They ride around looking for good things to jump off of. They range in ages and experiences and levels of drug use from none to some to probably a lot. Stevie tells me about it. He probably doesn't tell me all about it. He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.

    Does anyone have ideas. I want to let go of fear because I'm sure it colors the conversation. One of the things I never see discussed is unschoolers trying drugs. Maybe this never happens but I can't believe that, especially with those starting late like us.

--
Love and Prayers,
Marina

<Sandra@...>

Responses to this are moved here:  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/topics/72205 



--- In [email protected], <netmamaof3@...> wrote:

I was reading Sandra Dodd's site as I often do these days and I stumbled into the "Do It" page. The urgency I have been feeling was made even greater. We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. The book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and this page and the Yahoo groups have been so beneficial as well as Sandra's site and Living Joyfully. I have learned so much. Even though his life of relaxed/eclectic homeschooling seemed like freedom to most who observed, I can see how it was not the relationship centered lifestyle that would develop the most peace and joy in my home. He's my youngest. My husband runs his business out of our home. My 18 year old and 22 year old live with us and we are a pretty happy family unit.

  • Back to my urgency. I am extending a lot of trust to Stevie. I believe I must but I am hanging on to a lot of fear. In his life he has always been drawn to "the risky" or "inappropriate" maybe even because he's grown up with those labels from me. The thing is, we haven't stopped him from these things but have shared our views. So for example, right now it's pretty vulgar rap music which his sister is offended by. He has gotten pretty good at playing it less around her. He'll share videos with me and we'll talk about them. He thinks they're funny. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I'll say they're womanizing or a bit lacking in vocabulary (F,F,F). He likes the music (he is a musician). I don't (I'm a bit of a Rock n Roll snob and don't hear enough guitars!) but we can have good conversations. I feel like (hopefully) I'm grasping the idea of mutual respect here in the are of what I would have once called inappropriate.

    The "risky" is where I'm having trouble. The latest is skateboarding. The skating isn't the concern even though sometimes he comes home bloody! He hangs out for a few hours each day skating with kids I don't know. One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. They ride around looking for good things to jump off of. They range in ages and experiences and levels of drug use from none to some to probably a lot. Stevie tells me about it. He probably doesn't tell me all about it. He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.

    Does anyone have ideas. I want to let go of fear because I'm sure it colors the conversation. One of the things I never see discussed is unschoolers trying drugs. Maybe this never happens but I can't believe that, especially with those starting late like us.

--
Love and Prayers,
Marina

<robin.bentley@...>


  • ~ Does anyone have ideas. I want to let go of fear because I'm sure it colors the conversation.~

    It not only "colors the conversation." Until you look at the fear for what it is, you won't be able to see your child right in front of you for the horrific possibilities you've overlaid on what *might* be.

    Sandra's page on "Fears" might help you begin to let go. http://sandradodd.com/fears

    ~ One of the things I never see discussed is unschoolers trying drugs.~

  • I know some unschooled kids do try drugs, but it's in a completely different atmosphere than the one in which schooled kids often do. If parents have a good relationship with their child, they talk about drugs in an informative way, they talk about their own experiences, and provide their opinions (without the expectation that their child will agree with it). It's not like they hand their kid a joint, but they do (and I've seen this) say "If you are going to experiment, I'd rather you do it at home. If you are out, though, and you need help, you can call me and I'll come get you" or provide whatever other help they need. Kids make mistakes! They need to know you're going to be there, in solid and practical ways, along with the emotional support they may need.

    ~ Maybe this never happens but I can't believe that, especially with those starting late like us.~

    As my husband says "Hope is not a strategy."

    Be informed. Be available. Ask your son for his thoughts. Do your best to get over *your* fears. Your relationship can't help but improve if you do the work on yourself.

    Then, I'll bet, those fears will dissipate. You will have a stronger foundation and consequently, so will he.

    Robin B.




Jill Parmer


On Sep 18, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Marina Moses wrote:

<<<I want to let go of fear because I'm sure it colors the conversation.>>>

What can you do to let go of fear?  I mean consciously, a real thing, something tangible so you can mentally make a better move?
Notice your breathing?
Appreciat the good moments you get with your son?

How would it be if your son was talking with you and he was often? always? full of fear about you?  Might it not get exhausting?  Perhaps you might dread talking to him?

One thing that might help would be to really look at the things your son loves, his music, his skateboarding and support him.  Actually listen with him for a bit, even if you end up not liking it.  Put in time and effort.

Send him skateboarding links on a phone or skype.  Help him find cool places to skateboard.

Find out what he loves about the things he loves.  Be engaged with him.  Focus on actual, real moments.  Look for the things you are grateful for.  See what happens if you do those things, in your mind, and within your family.

Jill

Sandra Dodd

First, I'm sorry I split this discussion more than it already was.  It can work in two places.

-=-Send him skateboarding links on a phone or skype.  Help him find cool places to skateboard.-=-

Yes.  But happy uplifting links.
And cool places NOT intended to separate him from his friends.

Brandi Yates

The people who he hangs out with using drugs have problems of their own....they could just be a bad influence.� My 12 year old (almost 13!) has a friend he used to go to school with.� Im friends with him on Facebook and for a year he is always posting about what new trouble he has gotten into.� He was suspended for drinking liquor on the school bus.� I think he is in the 9th grade.� My son asked if he could come over and I said no.� That might be controlling but I do not want to let another child's problems become my son's.� Does that make sense?� We honestly do not have a ton of friends because most of the kids around here do go to school and they are going through A Lot.� I am feeling very sorry for these good kids that have to go through bullying, drugs, etc.�


Sandra Dodd

-=- Im friends with him on Facebook and for a year he is always posting about what new trouble he has gotten into.  He was suspended for drinking liquor on the school bus.  I think he is in the 9th grade.  My son asked if he could come over and I said no.  That might be controlling but I do not want to let another child's problems become my son's.  Does that make sense? -=-

It makes mainstream sense.  It doesn't make as much unschooling sense.

You're friends with the boy on facebook.  You don't need to be.  You have an unfair amount of information because of that.  If your son knew another boy who seemed nice to you, and you had no way to know he had been in trouble at school, you would probably let him come over.

Maybe this kid is just braggy and tells his bad stories. Maybe he's trying to find a way to get out of going to school.  But your son asked if he could visit At Your House!  Not to hang out with him elsewhere.

Being too controlling of who your kids see is the path to sneakiness on their part.
Not letting other kids come to your house is the path to your kids going elsewhere and not telling you who they were with.

If the kid is such a negative influence that you don't want him in your house, maybe you should unfriend him on facebook, or not have his posts in your regular feed.

Sandra