Sandra Dodd

Alex wrote this. I want to start a new thread with it.

-=- Responding and being there has been hard for her but she is
getting it little by little that is not being permissive and absent
instead of controlling and punitive.
But a lot of people see one or the other. It is hard for them to see
what unschooling families that have been doing for a while and are
mindfully parenting do.
-=-

This is what I used to be criticized for on Home Education Magazine
discussions, for saying that unschooling is something besides "just
take them out of school."

Seriously, in the days before unschooling.com was created to give me a
forum to talk about unschooling in depth (to get me off the regular
HEM boards, honestly), people would cut me off and say "Just take them
out of school and learning will follow. It will be fun! Ignore
Sandra." Not in so few words. <g>

The idea that there was nothing to it was all around, often put out
there by people who wouldn't talk about their own unschooling because
there wasn't much good to tell. Some, I think, were controlling moms
who didn't want to mess with the administration of the schools so
brought their kids home and said "You can do what you want to. Make
it something good." I've seen a few families seem to make something
like that work, because the kid was older and glad to be sprung, and
could figure out how to keep the momentum of "headed toward college"
keep going on his own.

It's not something that can be generalized to other families.

Yes, getting a child out of school is important. Unschooling isn't
going to take hold while school is still in the middle of the
family. But taking them out of school isn't enough.


So what DO unschoolers do? Can we make a list and edit it down to key
elements? Maybe we can't, but can we try?

And if there are already lists like this available to send people to,
could people bring those links too, please?

I'll start, but feel free to rephrase my stuff to make it more general
or clearer if you can.


Unschooling parents spend lots of time with their children.

Unschooling parents support their children's interests.

Unschooling parents respond to their children's curiosity and questions.

There must be many more, but how many things can a new unschooler
incorporate at once?

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lauren

>>> There must be many more, but how many things can a new unschooler incorporate
at once?<<<


Unschoolers support and encourage their children's innate self-awareness.

(I'm thinking of self-awareness in regards to their self-knowledge of their own physical
and emotional needs, etc.--having trouble stating this in a simple, concise manner!)


Lauren :)

Schuyler

Unschooling parents work to create lots of potentially interesting things to explore

Unschooling parents are willing to hear and respect a no from their child.

Unschooling parents are willing to look for ways to say yes when their first thought might be no.

Unschooling parents are accessible to their children when they are needed.

Unschooling parents are aware of their children's moods

Unschooling parents are aware of their children's limitations

The last two are about knowing when Simon or Linnaea need me to be more aware. If they are playing a tense video game together I need to be there. I'm stumbling with how to phrase it.

I know there are more, but those are the ones I can think of at the moment and I am going to rush off and pounce on Linnaea. I am aware of that need.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschoolers support and encourage their children's innate self-
awareness.

(I'm thinking of self-awareness in regards to their self-knowledge of
their own physical
and emotional needs, etc.--having trouble stating this in a simple,
concise manner!)-=-

Would "Unschoolers learn to respect their children's needs and try to
meet them"?

Maybe not.
Some people seem to think their kids "need" to hit other kids or step
on the cat....

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ryan free

---


>>>>>Unschoolers support and encourage their children's innate self-
awareness.

(I'm thinking of self-awareness in regards to their self-knowledge of
their own physical
and emotional needs, etc.--having trouble stating this in a simple,
concise manner!)<<<<<<<<<

This idea resonates with me, I saw it on a response today. To me it
shows respect for the innate nature of human beings to seek
autonomy, to define self.

Having followed the conversations about autonomy, limits/controls,
influence, partnership...

I am experiencing/interpreting contradictions, what follows are
questions

Isn't seeking Autonomy part of human nature? Isn't life about
defining/redefining, inventing who we are, about discovering
ourselves? Isn't discovering who we are really a never ending
process?

Isn't seeking a level of autonomy healthy?

So then I ask is the issue behind the issue of autonomy about
balance? and in seeking balance we consider how we are affected by
the influences in our lives.

based on how we are influenced/what we come to believe, we reject or
accept what others are saying and doing...by how these experiences
make us feel.

Do Unschoolers wish to be autonomous from the greater society?

Do they want to balance their way of life with that of the larger
society, do they see themselves as separate, as a sub group?

as another aspect of the larger group?

Are they a group that looks/has a goal to: balance the greater
society?

Are unschoolers concerned with how the larger society views and
understands them?

I ask these questions because in my particular case I have a 13 year
old, who I don't "believe" is ready/mature/knowledgeable enough to
be as autonomous as he is seeking to be. In my case I have a child
who

wants to have all controls/responsibility removed. I don't see this
as odd, but quite appropriate for a teenager... The school he
attends though has disregarded this desire in him altogether, and now
we are at an imbalance. I am searching for a way to bring this
experience back into balance.

Are my beliefs justifiable (him not being
ready/mature/knowledgeable) is that not the right/best/appropriate
way to look at it? Are there other ways to "see" my son?

by justifiable I mean, that in the greater society we tend to think
that children need guidance and structure, protection, limits,
sheilded from certain language and activities that adults engage in,
that many things should be decided for them until certain ages...

I can see here that some are going to question whether or not I
really Know my son that I am asking our my beliefs justifiable... I
do know my son, on an intuitive level I do not think he is mature
enough, but then I have to wonder do I need to look at a bias in my
belief? What is it about the larger society that has influenced me
to believe the things I believe.

And here is where Unschooling is confusing to me.... because at one
level I am understanding or misunderstanding the ideas about limits,
I am understanding that lightening up on limits is a way to allow for
autonomy, is a way to allow for the child to understand himself, to
learn by the experiences he chooses (remember also I am dealing with
a teen not a 2 year old.)....not by the experiences he is forced into
having.

This is very hard to articulate and I do fear being misunderstood
here... just keep in mind, I'm looking for clarification on
philosophy of Unschooling,... so I can take it and apply it (or not)
to my situation...

I'm just putting out there thoughts, not necessarily personal
feelings, ideas, beliefs.....I"m trying to understand a deeper
understanding of unschooling. of the philosophy.

If anyone wants to write personal realizations, stories, experiences
without taking up the time and space in the forum I would love to
receive personal emails. I know it's easy to send me a link to
another site, but more I'm looking for communion, personal
interaction, feelings,

Would you say that those that choose unschooling have certain
personality types?

Do unschoolers have fears of how they are judged perceived by
greater society? If so what are the fears? How have any of them
been dealt with or overcome?

In asking these questions I do not mean to be coming from any place
of judgment, preconceived notions, only looking for understanding,
only looking to have a clearer perception.



Kara



















In [email protected], "Lauren" <yis4yoga@...> wrote:
>
> >>> There must be many more, but how many things can a new
unschooler incorporate
> at once?<<<
>
>
> Unschoolers support and encourage their children's innate self-
awareness.
>
> (I'm thinking of self-awareness in regards to their self-knowledge
of their own physical
> and emotional needs, etc.--having trouble stating this in a simple,
concise manner!)
>
>
> Lauren :)
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-The last two are about knowing when Simon or Linnaea need me to be
more aware. If they are playing a tense video game together I need to
be there. I'm stumbling with how to phrase it. -=-

Attentive and alert.


I did some serious thinking about this. There might be people here
with experience in something that might directly apply: bodyguard,
secret service, intensive care or emergency room nurse.

The context in which I was doing my philosophizing a few years ago was
in writing directions and guidelines for a situation within the SCA, a
medieval studies group our whole family has been in, Marty's heavily
in, Holly's hardly in, Keith just got back from five nights camping at
"a war..."

But the season in which I thought about "attentive and alert" was when
I was describing my vision as the steward of the royal household, for
what I wanted the ladies in waiting and the guardsmen to do--how I
wanted them to see themselves within the situation.

We were "just playing," except for the fact that real, live people
would drive hundreds of miles to play. Anyway, this is what I came
up with, and you might see why it reminds me of the mother of two
video gamers. <g>
==============================
AT BECK AND CALL

Attendants should be at the Queen’s beck and call. Literally, “at beck
and call” means close enough and attentive enough that if the Queen
needs us she only has to gesture or speak a word and we are there. We
don’t need to stand within arm’s length—in fact, we need NOT to do
that all the time—but to stand ready to run an errand, to adjust
furniture, furnish a drink, or whatever it might be.

===========================

These days, "beck and call" is only part of insults. "He expected me
to be at his beck and call." But look at it straight on: "Beck" is
related to "beckon." To beckon means to somehow get someone to come
closer to you. Apparently it means to get someone to come closer to
you without actually calling them. <bwg>



In case anyone is curious about that part of my weird hobby, here:

http://sandradodd.com/artan/policies

I know some of the readers here either are or have been in the SCA
themselves.

It's kind of a stupid club, but just because something can objectively
be seen as stupid doesn't mean it's not fun. It's probably stupid
that I collect cardboard boxes. Still, when someone needs a cardboard
box of a certain size and strength, they know I'll probably have one.
<g> It's stupid that I really want me and Keith to stay in this big
house even when the kids are gone, but my STUFF is here, and there's
room for visitors.

I could do search-and-replace of the paragraph above and excise the
word "stupid." What could I replace it with that would make the same
point?



Sandra

(yes, and also Countess AElflaed of Duckford, in my other guise)

http://sandradodd.com/duckford/bio



Sandra

Lauren

> Would "Unschoolers learn to respect their children's needs and try to
> meet them"?
>
> Maybe not.
> Some people seem to think their kids "need" to hit other kids or step
> on the cat....

I find looking at needs SOOOOO very helpful in all situations. And it can be hard (esp. at
first) to see the difference between an actual need and a behavior enacted to meet an
underlying need. (Like the stepping on the cat stuff.)

I love the ideas I've read about here about parents supporting and recognizing a
connection that children are born with--a connection to themselves. (Which is what I
mean by 'self-awareness'.) And that is absolutely tied to what each child's own needs are,
so I think using the term 'needs' to phrase it could work.

In addition to the above phrase, what about:

'Unschoolers support their children in recognizing what their own needs are and help them
to meet them in a manner that also respects the needs of others.'

Not sure if this is any better or helpful...I have a tendency to be long winded. ;) I just love
the idea that unschoolers support/encourage/acknowledge the inborn self-knowlege of
their children. Sheesh--being clear can be tough!


Lauren :)

Sandra Dodd

-=-I find looking at needs SOOOOO very helpful in all situations. And
it can be hard (esp. at
first) to see the difference between an actual need and a behavior
enacted to meet an
underlying need. (Like the stepping on the cat stuff.)-=-

What underlying need do you think is being met by a child stepping on
a cat?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I love the ideas I've read about here about parents supporting and
recognizing a
connection that children are born with--a connection to themselves.
(Which is what I
mean by 'self-awareness'.) And that is absolutely tied to what each
child's own needs are,
so I think using the term 'needs' to phrase it could work. -=-

That's a lot of words, but a child isn't born with a connection to
himself. He is born whole.

The word for all of that, I think is "wholeness."

And as whole as he might be, what he needs at the moment of birth is
to continue to be with his mother.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/21/2009 9:26 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> The idea that there was nothing to it was all around, often put out
> there by people who wouldn't talk about their own unschooling because
> there wasn't much good to tell.

Well, and because John Holt said taking them out of school and leaving
them alone would be better than school (somebody can maybe find that
quote - I'm sure this is a pretty close paraphrase). So people took that
to heart.

But back in those days, it was very very open-ended and vague what was
meant by unschooling. John Holt was very very patient with people - he
seemed happy to see them just get kids out of school and hoped that
they'd come to realize that they didn't need to do school at home,
either. That seemed obvious to him and he warned against creating a
miniature schoolroom in the home, but he used the term unschooling to
include whatever people might be doing outside of physical schools -
school-at-home to nothing.

I'm more and more often wishing we had another term - a term for this
style of parenting - sort of an extended attachment parenting plus for
the way our kids are supporting in their learning lives (which is a
natural result of this type of parenting).

The parenting stuff - even parents of young children would be seen as
practicing that up until they sent their kids to school.

Which leads me to Alfie Kohn - seems to me he is a move in the direction
of the type of parenting we're talking about - he calls it
"Unconditional Parenting" and I have issues with the name, but not with
what he promotes, in practice. BUT, seems to me that the logical
conclusion to his parenting style would be to not make the kids go to
school or do schoolwork - and he doesn't take it that far.

In my own head, I think of what I do as "Relationship Parenting" - a
strong and happy and supportive relationship is what I aim for. It is
how I decide what to do or say when I'm not sure. I ask myself whether
this is relationship building or destructive. I mean, that seems to be
at the core of what matters most - if our relationship is good, then I
AM respecting my children's autonomy (in the sense that I'm recognizing
they are a real and separate person who has their own brain and body and
their own strengths and weaknesses and are not simply a sort of parental
prosthetic) and dependence and everything else.

Of course, just saying I put our relationship first and foremost isn't
really that helpful to others, since they might think the appropriate
relationship between parent and child is that of owner and slave or that
they are "equal" in every way or something else altogether. I know what
it means to me - but it isn't necessarily going to be useful to others
to put it this way.

-pam

Hema A. Bharadwaj

THANK YOU FOR THIS THREAD.
if this is not said already.... unschooling parents are willing to admit
they were wrong and are willing to work on themselves intensely. Or at
least this is what i'm goign thru :-) but i guess i'm a deschooling parent.

with gratitude, Hema

--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
http://thebharadwajknights.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lauren

> What underlying need do you think is being met by a child stepping on
> a cat?


LOL! I guess it would depend on the situation--I'd think it could be some sort of
expression of anger/upset/frustration, not being paid attention to, not feeling validated,
maybe something stemming from boredom or curiosity, some gross motor sensory needs
not being met, etc...It would probably be very specific to the situation. I don't think that
stepping on the cat would actually work to *meet* the child's underlying need either, but
that this behavior/action was communicating something, something that the child might
need or be lacking. Maybe a need for connection with someone else? Even a need to be
supported by his parents while learning to navigate the world. (ie, parent says, "Ouch--
that hurts the kitty, if you want to touch her, pet her (taking child or cat away if child
continues to try and hurt the cat, making sure the child is not alone w/ cat, etc.)...and
maybe saying "here, you can step on these stairs, or these pillows, or this puddle, etc.", if
the child just wants to step on something...I'm thinking of my young toddler here, I'm
certain the parental reaction/response would be quite different with an older child, as well
as the reasons for stepping on the cat...)

I'm interested in what others think about needs/behavior. Some of my knowledge on the
topic is not from unschooling groups, so I'm interested what this group's ideas are on it...

Lauren :)

Lyla Wolfenstein

I'm more and more often wishing we had another term - a term for this
style of parenting - sort of an extended attachment parenting plus for
the way our kids are supporting in their learning lives (which is a
natural result of this type of parenting).

The parenting stuff - even parents of young children would be seen as
practicing that up until they sent their kids to school.

Which leads me to Alfie Kohn - seems to me he is a move in the direction
of the type of parenting we're talking about - he calls it
"Unconditional Parenting" and I have issues with the name, but not with
what he promotes, in practice. BUT, seems to me that the logical
conclusion to his parenting style would be to not make the kids go to
school or do schoolwork - and he doesn't take it that far.

In my own head, I think of what I do as "Relationship Parenting" - a
strong and happy and supportive relationship is what I aim for. It is
how I decide what to do or say when I'm not sure. I ask myself whether
this is relationship building or destructive. I mean, that seems to be
at the core of what matters most - if our relationship is good, then I
AM respecting my children's autonomy (in the sense that I'm recognizing
they are a real and separate person who has their own brain and body and
their own strengths and weaknesses and are not simply a sort of parental
prosthetic) and dependence and everything else.
>>>>>>>>>>>

there is another, emerging term for this - called "connection parenting" or "connected parenting"

pam leo is probably the premier author talking about connection based parenting, and i am not sure she takes it as far as getting kids out of school either...there are lots of authors that talk about connection baesd parenting in the context of unschooling - perhaps without calling it that - naomi aldort comes to mind....

below i have pated the "definition" of connected parenting that we use to describe our "class" on the topic - it needs updating though, to list pam leo, as well as a few other inspirations. wee end up talking a LOT about educational options and norms as well (as in debunking the myth that school is necessary or even desireable) and many parents who are not already unschooling when they come to our class end up going in that direction.

we talk about asking the same exact question as you say above, essentially, in all interactions with our kids - "will this connect or disconnect me from my child in this moment?"

i think SO many people are coming from a paradigm of punishments, rewards, "consequences", etc. - and THAT is the paradigm that needs to shift before anything can shift on an educational level, or in terms of a more RU approach to housework, electronics, money, food, sleep....

warmly, Lyla



This class focuses on the primacy of connection in parenting children of all ages, and on parenting without punishments or rewards. Look deeply past difficult behaviors to discover the underlying needs of our children (and ourselves), and begin to use concrete tools to respond effectively to parenting challenges.

Our interactive class covers respectful limit setting, developmental norms, listening to feelings and many practical ideas about what to do instead of being either an authoritarian or a permissive parent.

Incorporates concepts from the work of Alfie Kohn (Unconditional Parenting), Dr. Gordon Neufeld (Hold on to Your Kids), Lawrence J. Cohen (Playful Parenting) and Marshall Rosenburg (NVC), as well as the professional and personal experience of Lyla and Emily.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lauren

> That's a lot of words, but a child isn't born with a connection to
> himself. He is born whole.
>
> The word for all of that, I think is "wholeness."

YES YES YES! I probably think of it as a connection because I feel I was disconnected from
my self, my needs, etc., prior to having my son. I feel giving birth to him and mothering
him have inspired this amazing reconnection to myself, my instincts, my nature, maybe a
return to wholeness? He was born "whole" as you say...Maybe it doesn't need to be said.
But I think there is something very special and really conflicting with mainstream Western
society/parenting about respecting, supporting and encouraging the wholeness a child is
born with...which in great part can be done by keeping him "with his mother" as you
mentioned...

Hmmm...I'm thinking about this...


Lauren :)

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Unschooling parents tune-in with their kids. 
or
 Unachooling parents are in tune with their child.

I think I want to say something like: being in tune means offering food and drinks to your child through the day,
sense their kids are getting frustrated with an activity or sibling and step in to help avoid it from escalating and to
give the child tools and better options for dealing with those emotions.

Most of the "dos" I can thing are of course related to young children. Since my kids are young. My oldest would have been in 1st grade.



 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 




________________________________


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

OK I got another one I need to work hard on it because I tend to drift away.

Listen to what your children have to say. Give them undivided attention when they have stories to tell and dreams to share.

My son loves to share everything. From commercials he sees and thinks are funny to what he is going to create when he grows up and works for  Roblox ( or creates his own "Blox" game company).

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 




________________________________
From: Lauren <yis4yoga@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:49:48 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: What do unschoolers DO?


> That's a lot of words, but a child isn't born with a connection to
> himself. He is born whole.
>
> The word for all of that, I think is "wholeness."

YES YES YES! I probably think of it as a connection because I feel I was disconnected from
my self, my needs, etc., prior to having my son. I feel giving birth to him and mothering
him have inspired this amazing reconnection to myself, my instincts, my nature, maybe a
return to wholeness? He was born "whole" as you say...Maybe it doesn't need to be said.
But I think there is something very special and really conflicting with mainstream Western
society/parenting about respecting, supporting and encouraging the wholeness a child is
born with...which in great part can be done by keeping him "with his mother" as you
mentioned...

Hmmm...I'm thinking about this...

Lauren :)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-In my own head, I think of what I do as "Relationship Parenting" - a
strong and happy and supportive relationship is what I aim for.=-

It's a relationship even if the dad says "Do what I'll say or I'll hit
you like I hit your mother," though. The word "relationship" is as
valid between a prison guard and a prisoner as between a mother and
infant.

If we change terms, it needs to be something that doesn't imply that
others are not doing that, if possible, and not something that steps
on the toes of already-existing philosophy or discussions. Not
something that steals everyday English and trademarks it (as someone
did with "Peaceful Parenting" and then threatened me repeatedly until
I changed the name of my page to "Parenting Peacfully."


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I liked these questions. I'm going to answer them as if they had been
a meme on Facebook or something. :-)


-=-Isn't seeking Autonomy part of human nature? Isn't life about
defining/redefining, inventing who we are, about discovering
ourselves? Isn't discovering who we are really a never ending
process? -=-

Ideally, we should never have to "discover" ourselves. We should BE
ourselves.
I don't want my kids inventing who they are. I have worked for years
to help them be strong and thoughtful and kind who-they-ares.

-=-Isn't seeking a level of autonomy healthy?-=-

Should a nursing baby seek to wean?
Weaning is healthy. Unfortunately, "weaning" is often used as
something someone does to another person.
In La Leche League, they use the term "self-led weaning." It means
saying yes and not no, as much as possible, to a baby who indicates he
wants to nurse.
Forcing a baby to wean is not as good as letting him taper off as his
own interest in other foods and sources of nourishment are larger.

-=-So then I ask is the issue behind the issue of autonomy about
balance? and in seeking balance we consider how we are affected by
the influences in our lives.-=-

Balance of what where?
http://sandradodd.com/balance
I don't see any balance in "autonomy." I see separation, and even a
degree of rejection. I see assumption that the autonomous other being
will take care of his own needs and if he needs something, he'll ask;
see ya later, I'll be over here in my own autonomous self.

-=-based on how we are influenced/what we come to believe, we reject or
accept what others are saying and doing...by how these experiences
make us feel.-=-

Do you mean is the argument being reactionary?
All of human action is reactionary at some level. All of biological
life is reactionary at some level.
Could you rephrase the question?

-=-Do Unschoolers wish to be autonomous from the greater society? -=-

Unschoolers have no system of government, nor even a syndicate, and
nobody knows what unschoolers as a group might want.

In my family, unschooling works because my children live in the real,
whole world.

-=-Do they want to balance their way of life with that of the larger
society, do they see themselves as separate, as a sub group?
as another aspect of the larger group? -=-

I don't think you want us to take a vote. I think you're trying to
figure out how you might end up seeing yourself if you become more
involved in unschooling. And that would depend on you.

-=-Are they a group that looks/has a goal to: balance the greater
society? -=-

Sometimes an unschooler will become enthusiastic and go off in a burst
of expression, saying that EVERYONE should be an unschooler! But
that's the fervor of new love. It's not feasible reality. Who would
hold the greater society still long enough for us to figure out how
much unschooling it would take to balance them? (I'm thinking teeter-
totter.)

By "balance" were you thinking "compensate for"? "Serve as field-to-
object? (contrast?)" "Set an example for?"

Had we tried to prepare Kirby for jobs that were available when he was
young, we would have been aiming for 1990, but he became an adult in
the middle of the first decade of the 21st century. We had no real
way to prepare him for that. What we prepared him for was to be
comfortable as a six year old, and as a seven year old. We helped
make him a happy, healthy eight year old. Time passed.

-=-Are unschoolers concerned with how the larger society views and
understands them?-=-

To what end? Because many of us have been interviewed by print media,
radio, TV. It's usually low-level fluff and nonsense.
If what we're doing is responsible and legal, the larger society only
needs to know it's legal.

-=-I ask these questions because in my particular case I have a 13 year
old, who I don't "believe" is ready/mature/knowledgeable enough to
be as autonomous as he is seeking to be. In my case I have a child
who wants to have all controls/responsibility removed. I don't see this
as odd, but quite appropriate for a teenager... The school he
attends though has disregarded this desire in him altogether, and now
we are at an imbalance. I am searching for a way to bring this
experience back into balance.-=-

As long as he's attending school, your options are much more limited.
If he's homeschooled, you can give him LOTS of leeway.

It's not the job of any school to regard a child's desire to be in
control and responsible for himself. Not even the most radical school
can forgo responsibility for knowing whether the child is safe and
where he is.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Here are my shorter, more important answers, for those who don't like
to read much:



-=-Isn't seeking Autonomy part of human nature? -=-
Yes.

-=-Isn't seeking a level of autonomy healthy?-=-
Yes, increasingly as children are older and fully as adults.




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Schuyler

I would argue that it isn't a part of human nature to be autonomous. Humans are incredibly social animals. We seek out other people and make choices based on things that will help us to get along with them, to fit in a group. David did an interesting study with pictures of people. He digitally manipulated pictures of men who had been rated as less attractive so that they were partnered with pictures of women who were rated as attractive or more attractive than the man. Anyhow female raters would rate men with more attractive women as more attractive then when they were alone or with less attractive women. It's called mate choice copying.

I am not autonomous in my life. At some level I choose that, but there is a lot that is outside of much of my conscious decision making. I make choices based not only on my immediate biological environment (hormones, bio-rhythm, stress, genetics, etc...) but also based on thing in my physical environment. I also make a lot of choices based on the care I want to give to my family. A family who I completely do not want to be autonomous from.

Over at Run.ning Meredith posted links to a couple of pieces on autonomy (http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/nature-of-autonomy?id=2184370%3ATopic%3A52415&page=2#comments). I couldn't read them. I tried and it was beyond me. But in my skimming through one of the papers I read that some researcher said that they didn't believe in that anyone could truly be autonomous because they can never be outside of their environment. I think that's where I go whenever I think about autonomy. I went and found it: Bandura (1989), for example,
defined autonomy as action that is ‘‘entirely independent’’ of the
environment (p. 1175). He then argued that because virtually all actions
are affected by one’s environment, there can be no meaningful
concept of autonomy.

The authors of the paper dismiss his argument by saying that this idea is covered within their paradigm of Self Determination Theory and as such is not distinct from an autonomous action. I must admit I get bogged down with the number of things that weigh in on any decision I make, no matter how quickly I make it. And I think I fall in Bandura's camp. I think that I don't believe there is a meaningful concept of autonomy.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 21 February, 2009 8:17:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: What do unschoolers DO?

Here are my shorter, more important answers, for those who don't like
to read much:



-=-Isn't seeking Autonomy part of human nature? -=-
Yes.

-=-Isn't seeking a level of autonomy healthy?-=-
Yes, increasingly as children are older and fully as adults.




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------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



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Sandra Dodd

-=-I think that I don't believe there is a meaningful concept of
autonomy. -=-

Separation, though; there's some of that. Marty has a girlfriend.
Holly has a boyfriend. It's natural and desirable (even to me) that
they will find someone else to partner up with. Yet... it's
separation and not autonomy, isn't it? From my motherly point of
view, they're "becoming autonomous" but from the point of view of the
new partner, they're just transferring their attachments.

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

On 2/21/2009 11:18 AM, Lauren wrote:
> Not sure if this is any better or helpful...I have a tendency to be long winded.;) I just love
> the idea that unschoolers support/encourage/acknowledge the inborn self-knowlege of
> their children. Sheesh--being clear can be tough!
>
>

It IS tough - but the process is so valuable, isn't it?

I'm long-winded, too. Sometimes I go through and cut out about half of
what I write - some of it is superfluous words and some entire sentences
or paragraphs that are redundant.

Sometimes I don't have time to weed my writing and it shows.

-pam

k

>>>> I'm long-winded, too. Sometimes I go through and cut out about half of
what I write - some of it is superfluous words and some entire sentences
or paragraphs that are redundant. <<<<

Pam, your writing is long sometimes but it has decent paragraph
breaks. Some people don't use many breaks and a few write in long
posts with absolutely no paragraph breaks. And that's what makes a
post harder for me to read through.

When there's a lot going on here at home (and it's rare it isn't) then
those lllloooonnnngggg paragraphs look endless. Once I've read the
first part a couple of times through trying to find my place, I might
click off to something easier because the space for concentration is
just not there.

~Katherine

Jenny C

> So what DO unschoolers do? Can we make a list and edit it down to key
> elements? Maybe we can't, but can we try?
>


This reminded me of a not very pleasant conversation with my mother
where I was sharing with her about how Chamille is a little bored right
now and could really use a good friend to hang out with. Her answer was
to push her more, make her do stuff. It was sooooo NOT what I needed to
hear.

When I was thinking about what I COULD do, what was in my realm of
possibility, and what she WAS interested in, I was able to come up with
some ideas.

She really wants to learn how to cut hair, but she's too young for the
schools around here, so I was thinking about what she could do until
then and maybe it will satisfy her desire to learn about hair care and
such.

One idea I came up with was to buy hair care products to try. I got the
idea from her, not that she told me she wanted to do that, but she was
giving me an indepth description of some hair products that she's used
and seen the effects of and some of them, she's even research the
companies ethics, especially wether they test on animals or not. That's
what gave me the idea, that right now, what I can do to support her
interest is to buy more hair products, more variety to play with. All
of that will build on her knowledge of hair care products. Personally,
I don't like going to hair dressers that have no working knowledge of
various hair care products, and I've met many like that, some don't even
know a thing about the products they actually sell in their shops.

It may seem like a small thing to do, buy hair care products. However,
she's not interested in tons of other things right now, and waiting and
waiting around until she's old enough to study it in a class setting
with the idea of getting a license to cut hair, is really hard for a kid
that wants to do it NOW!

It's a small step in what I can do to keep her interested and learning
and expanding her knowledge in something that she loves.

So, I'd say, unschoolers support their kids no matter how large or
small, in whatever way they can and that the way to know how and what to
support them in, is to really listen to them, and really SEE what they
like and want to explore.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It may seem like a small thing to do, buy hair care products.
However,
she's not interested in tons of other things right now, and waiting and
waiting around until she's old enough to study it in a class setting
with the idea of getting a license to cut hair, is really hard for a kid
that wants to do it NOW!-=-

When Holly was too young to cut her own hair, she designed a couple of
haircuts, drew pictures, and had me do them.

Now that she's older, she has cut her own hair and colored it and done
various things with it.

What about finding times to watch people cutting hair? Lots of
hairdressers have big windows, or waiting rooms. There are books and
magazines about hairstyling. Website, probably.

Maybe you could find wigs at thrift stores and a couple of styrofoam
wigheads or something and let her play with those.

Is there a family you know that might let her play with their hair or
even cut it? Maybe someone who's going to get a haircut soon anyway
would let her mess with the longer hair before they go in.

Holly has found a crimper and a straightener at thrift stores.

There are some holly-hair photos here:
http://sandradodd.com/holly
http://sandradodd.com/hollyhair
Sandra

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Lauren

>>> It IS tough - but the process is so valuable, isn't it?<<<

Yes! I find that working to write out my thoughts on any topic really allows me to clarify
what and how I actually feel. Most of the posts I've written on any lists probably helped
me more than anyone else--I think it's the way I most effectively work out my own *stuff*!

:)

Lauren

Joanna Murphy

> > That's a lot of words, but a child isn't born with a connection to
> > himself. He is born whole.
> >
> > The word for all of that, I think is "wholeness."
>
> YES YES YES! I probably think of it as a connection because I feel I was disconnected from
> my self, my needs, etc.


This is a real gem of a thread, for me. I have always thought of it in these terms as well--a
connection to self that children have. I LOVE changing that idea to one of wholeness instead
(just like I really like the feeling of taking the word autonomy out of the picture). If they stay
whole to begin with, there's no reason to "establish a connection with themselves", and I, with
all of my good intentions, can actually encourage a rift.

I love these little realizations that shift me in subtle yet powerful ways. They make me giddy!

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I love these little realizations that shift me in subtle yet
powerful ways. They make me giddy!=-

OH!
I just got back from finishing a blog post in which I used the
excellent word "giddy" and then found it here too!

Giddy can be very good!

Sandra

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Jenny C

> Now that she's older, she has cut her own hair and colored it and done
> various things with it.

Chamille does this a lot with her own hair, it's all rainbow colored
right now and the back looks like cotton candy!


>
> What about finding times to watch people cutting hair? Lots of
> hairdressers have big windows, or waiting rooms. There are books and
> magazines about hairstyling. Website, probably.

This is a great idea! I'm so glad I brought it up, I was feeling stuck!
I didn't expect anyone to have ideas... I have no idea why... stuck in
my own head I guess!

I like all the other ideas too, I'm on it! Chamille will like it too!

Joanna Murphy

> I ask these questions because in my particular case I have a 13 year
> old, who I don't "believe" is ready/mature/knowledgeable enough to
> be as autonomous as he is seeking to be. In my case I have a child
> who
> wants to have all controls/responsibility removed. I don't see this
> as odd, but quite appropriate for a teenager... The school he
> attends though has disregarded this desire in him altogether, and now
> we are at an imbalance. I am searching for a way to bring this
> experience back into balance.
>
>
I think that your impulse to seek balance for your son is right on the money. His behavior
is primarily a reaction--which is why it looks normal for a 13 year old to be starting a
"rebellious" phase. What if there were nothing to rebel against? What if there hadn't been
influences pushing and shaping him for the past 9 or so years--would he have to push
back?

I do agree with you that schooled children are looking to be more grown up than they are
really ready for, but unschooled teens usually looks so very different. If you follow this
path, you don't really know what you'll find in six months as you and your son connect
more deeply--you can only extrapolate from the experiences of those on this list and
other unschoolers, but since your son and your family will have your own unique
experience you won't really know. This is one of the vast differences between this
approach and school. School pushes toward conformity and unschooling is pretty much
the opposite. Each child is valued for who they are, in the positive, and people thrive by
having the positives recognized.

What I see in my 13 year old son is a boy who is very relaxed to be at the age he's at. He's
happily exploring life with me, and he shares everything with me. I consciously made
choices when he was much younger with the teen years in mind, and they are paying off
with a kid who is perfectly comfortable with adults and tells me he feels sad when his
friends don't have good relationships with their parents.

I know things can turn around positively for your son.

Joanna