Gwen

Megan(7) has been taking Taekwondo since last June. She likes the classes and really likes her instructor.

The instructor doesn't schedule much time between classes, so one on one time to talk to him is limited (which isn't to say he isn't accessible, just busy). He leaves important notes on a whiteboard. Things like when the next testing date will be, when the Christmas party is, and other things everyone needs to know.

Last week, there was a note on the board that said every student must participate in an upcoming tournament. Megan said she didn't want to compete. My husband went in, with Megan, before one of Megan's classes to talk to her teacher and explain that Megan was not interested in competing. Her teacher said something (to Megan) like "Are you sure? There will be forms and board breaking and sparring. You don't want to do any of that?" Megan decided she wanted to try sparring. My husband asked if she was sure and Megan said she was.

Here are my concerns:

1) her teacher is very charismatic and I am a little concerned that his enthusiasm rubbed off on Megan and she agreed to something that maybe she wasn't behind 100%. I probably would have chosen to talk to her teacher without Megan in the room, but it didn't happen that way.

2) Megan only spars with full gear on once a week and the other two classes are no contact sparring mixed with forms and other things. The teacher lets the kids choose their own partners about 50% of the time. Megan usually pairs with her cousin who is a year younger (my niece usually chooses Megan before Megan can choose someone else). My niece has no enthusiasm or interest in the class (she usually cries through most of the class, it is awful and I feel horribly for her, but my brother won't take her out of the class because it is "good for her"). So when Megan and my niece spar, Megan is sparring with someone who runs away or tries to tackle/tickly her and doesn't hit back. When Megan spars with other kids she gets a gleam in her eye and has a great time. There is only session for sparring per week. My niece lives with us from Friday night to Sunday night and most holidays. So they do see each other frequently. Anyway, my concern is that Megan
won't do as well as she would like to do in the tournament. Megan takes Taekwondo for fun. I never expected her to want to compete.

3) My niece will also be competing in the tournament. You know those parents who coach their kids from the sidelines in the most ungentle way possible? That's my brother. He will be taking her to the tournament and then dropping her off at our house. So whatever happens at the tournament will be ours to deal with for the rest of the weekend. I'm guessing he won't actually talk to her while she is on the mat (is that the right word?), but I'm sure he will be doing it before and after.

4) Megan is very enthusiastic about the tournament. Megan has been known to change her mind in the past and we've accommodated that as much as possible. But now that we've paid an entry fee and she will be scheduled to compete...I'm feeling as if her option to back out closed when mailed the entry fee (not because of the fee...although $60 is a lot of money right now...more because by entering and paying the fee we've made a commitment to be there - at her request). But I also realize she's seven and that is too to put on her, so other than asking "are you sure?" and saying "this means you need to go because you are scheduled to be there" she isn't getting baggage from me about it. I don't love that phrasing, so if there is a better way I can state it, I'm open to suggestions.

5) I've never been to one of these tournaments before, so I'm not sure what to expect. I'd like to prepare Megan a little bit. Has anyone's kids participated in something like this at younger ages?

6) Ok, so after the tournament...any suggestions on how I can support Megan and my niece? They are very likely going to have very different experiences.

Thanks,
Gwen

Lyla Wolfenstein

hi gwen - i have experience with all of your questions - including right here in portland - i wonder what tournament it is?

i have a second degree black belt in tae kwon do, my daughter first degree, and my son did tae kwon do for 3 years before quitting.

to be honest, we have never had great experiences at the tournaments and we stopped going fairly early on. i hate to be a downer, but, except for the in-house tournaments that our instructor has put on at his school, the big regional or state tournaments tend to be big, impersonal, fairly random, with a lot of unpredicatable matches (kids being re-grouped with poor matches - too large, too experienced, etc.) due to not enough participants in any given group, etc.

i think the tournaments can be great experiences at higher levels, and for older kids/adults, but i have seen way too many 5-8 year olds crying, and even my daughter felt disillusioned at 12, when the scores were incorrectly tallied and she came in 5th, even though she had the 2nd highest score in forms.

sparring is particularly vulnerable to judge bias, line of sight, etc., and if a kid is sensitive to perceived unfairness or likely to panic if hurt or startled, it can be a traumatic environment.

that said, i don't particularly think competition is a great idea at young ages for most kids, so i am certainly biased in that way as well.

our instructor used to encourage first time tournament goers to choose board breaking or forms, whichever (or both) they were strongest at, rather than sparring, except in really specific cases of *strong* sparring skills.

i'd also encourage you to let *go* of the notion that the door is closed since you paid. you paid whether she goes or not. and the commitment should be to your child not the instructor - if she backs out, i think she needs that trust that that is what she needs to do.

i regret nothing more than pushing my son into things he said he didn't want to do, or changed his mind on - tae kwon do included. and i really believe he might still be doing it if i hadn't paid more attention to commitment and money than to what he was telling me. so i am biased there too :)

hope this isn't too blunt,'
warmly, Lyla


----- Original Message -----
From: Gwen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:36 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] sports competition



Megan(7) has been taking Taekwondo since last June. She likes the classes and really likes her instructor.

The instructor doesn't schedule much time between classes, so one on one time to talk to him is limited (which isn't to say he isn't accessible, just busy). He leaves important notes on a whiteboard. Things like when the next testing date will be, when the Christmas party is, and other things everyone needs to know.

Last week, there was a note on the board that said every student must participate in an upcoming tournament. Megan said she didn't want to compete. My husband went in, with Megan, before one of Megan's classes to talk to her teacher and explain that Megan was not interested in competing. Her teacher said something (to Megan) like "Are you sure? There will be forms and board breaking and sparring. You don't want to do any of that?" Megan decided she wanted to try sparring. My husband asked if she was sure and Megan said she was.

Here are my concerns:

1) her teacher is very charismatic and I am a little concerned that his enthusiasm rubbed off on Megan and she agreed to something that maybe she wasn't behind 100%. I probably would have chosen to talk to her teacher without Megan in the room, but it didn't happen that way.

2) Megan only spars with full gear on once a week and the other two classes are no contact sparring mixed with forms and other things. The teacher lets the kids choose their own partners about 50% of the time. Megan usually pairs with her cousin who is a year younger (my niece usually chooses Megan before Megan can choose someone else). My niece has no enthusiasm or interest in the class (she usually cries through most of the class, it is awful and I feel horribly for her, but my brother won't take her out of the class because it is "good for her"). So when Megan and my niece spar, Megan is sparring with someone who runs away or tries to tackle/tickly her and doesn't hit back. When Megan spars with other kids she gets a gleam in her eye and has a great time. There is only session for sparring per week. My niece lives with us from Friday night to Sunday night and most holidays. So they do see each other frequently. Anyway, my concern is that Megan
won't do as well as she would like to do in the tournament. Megan takes Taekwondo for fun. I never expected her to want to compete.

3) My niece will also be competing in the tournament. You know those parents who coach their kids from the sidelines in the most ungentle way possible? That's my brother. He will be taking her to the tournament and then dropping her off at our house. So whatever happens at the tournament will be ours to deal with for the rest of the weekend. I'm guessing he won't actually talk to her while she is on the mat (is that the right word?), but I'm sure he will be doing it before and after.

4) Megan is very enthusiastic about the tournament. Megan has been known to change her mind in the past and we've accommodated that as much as possible. But now that we've paid an entry fee and she will be scheduled to compete...I'm feeling as if her option to back out closed when mailed the entry fee (not because of the fee...although $60 is a lot of money right now...more because by entering and paying the fee we've made a commitment to be there - at her request). But I also realize she's seven and that is too to put on her, so other than asking "are you sure?" and saying "this means you need to go because you are scheduled to be there" she isn't getting baggage from me about it. I don't love that phrasing, so if there is a better way I can state it, I'm open to suggestions.

5) I've never been to one of these tournaments before, so I'm not sure what to expect. I'd like to prepare Megan a little bit. Has anyone's kids participated in something like this at younger ages?

6) Ok, so after the tournament...any suggestions on how I can support Megan and my niece? They are very likely going to have very different experiences.

Thanks,
Gwen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

It is the US National Open Taekwondo Championships.

I really appreciate your input. It mirrors my thinking. I was actually happy when Megan said she didn't want to compete. I think competitions for little kids like this aren't the best thing.

I guess I thought her instructor wouldn't put her into a situation she wasn't ready for, but now that he's encouraged my niece to spar too...yikes.

I don't think the instructor is a bad guy, but I wonder if he advances the kids too quickly. And he is definitely working at growing a business. Megan is a green belt who will be testing into her purple belt soon. But it is a fun class for Megan, so I've never worried about it.

Gwen


--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:

>> hi gwen - i have experience with all of your questions -
> including right here in portland - i wonder what tournament
> it is?
>
> i have a second degree black belt in tae kwon do, my
> daughter first degree, and my son did tae kwon do for 3
> years before quitting.
>
> to be honest, we have never had great experiences at the
> tournaments and we stopped going fairly early on. i hate to
> be a downer, but, except for the in-house tournaments that
> our instructor has put on at his school, the big regional or
> state tournaments tend to be big, impersonal, fairly random,
> with a lot of unpredicatable matches (kids being re-grouped
> with poor matches - too large, too experienced, etc.) due to
> not enough participants in any given group, etc.
>
> i think the tournaments can be great experiences at higher
> levels, and for older kids/adults, but i have seen way too
> many 5-8 year olds crying, and even my daughter felt
> disillusioned at 12, when the scores were incorrectly
> tallied and she came in 5th, even though she had the 2nd
> highest score in forms.
>
> sparring is particularly vulnerable to judge bias, line of
> sight, etc., and if a kid is sensitive to perceived
> unfairness or likely to panic if hurt or startled, it can be
> a traumatic environment.
>
> that said, i don't particularly think competition is a
> great idea at young ages for most kids, so i am certainly
> biased in that way as well.
>
> our instructor used to encourage first time tournament
> goers to choose board breaking or forms, whichever (or both)
> they were strongest at, rather than sparring, except in
> really specific cases of *strong* sparring skills.
>
> i'd also encourage you to let *go* of the notion that
> the door is closed since you paid. you paid whether she
> goes or not. and the commitment should be to your child not
> the instructor - if she backs out, i think she needs that
> trust that that is what she needs to do.
>
> i regret nothing more than pushing my son into things he
> said he didn't want to do, or changed his mind on - tae
> kwon do included. and i really believe he might still be
> doing it if i hadn't paid more attention to commitment
> and money than to what he was telling me. so i am biased
> there too :)
>
> hope this isn't too blunt,'
> warmly, Lyla
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gwen
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:36 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] sports competition
>
>
>
> Megan(7) has been taking Taekwondo since last June. She
> likes the classes and really likes her instructor.
>
> The instructor doesn't schedule much time between
> classes, so one on one time to talk to him is limited (which
> isn't to say he isn't accessible, just busy). He
> leaves important notes on a whiteboard. Things like when the
> next testing date will be, when the Christmas party is, and
> other things everyone needs to know.
>
> Last week, there was a note on the board that said every
> student must participate in an upcoming tournament. Megan
> said she didn't want to compete. My husband went in,
> with Megan, before one of Megan's classes to talk to her
> teacher and explain that Megan was not interested in
> competing. Her teacher said something (to Megan) like
> "Are you sure? There will be forms and board breaking
> and sparring. You don't want to do any of that?"
> Megan decided she wanted to try sparring. My husband asked
> if she was sure and Megan said she was.
>
> Here are my concerns:
>
> 1) her teacher is very charismatic and I am a little
> concerned that his enthusiasm rubbed off on Megan and she
> agreed to something that maybe she wasn't behind 100%. I
> probably would have chosen to talk to her teacher without
> Megan in the room, but it didn't happen that way.
>
> 2) Megan only spars with full gear on once a week and the
> other two classes are no contact sparring mixed with forms
> and other things. The teacher lets the kids choose their own
> partners about 50% of the time. Megan usually pairs with her
> cousin who is a year younger (my niece usually chooses Megan
> before Megan can choose someone else). My niece has no
> enthusiasm or interest in the class (she usually cries
> through most of the class, it is awful and I feel horribly
> for her, but my brother won't take her out of the class
> because it is "good for her"). So when Megan and
> my niece spar, Megan is sparring with someone who runs away
> or tries to tackle/tickly her and doesn't hit back. When
> Megan spars with other kids she gets a gleam in her eye and
> has a great time. There is only session for sparring per
> week. My niece lives with us from Friday night to Sunday
> night and most holidays. So they do see each other
> frequently. Anyway, my concern is that Megan
> won't do as well as she would like to do in the
> tournament. Megan takes Taekwondo for fun. I never expected
> her to want to compete.
>
> 3) My niece will also be competing in the tournament. You
> know those parents who coach their kids from the sidelines
> in the most ungentle way possible? That's my brother. He
> will be taking her to the tournament and then dropping her
> off at our house. So whatever happens at the tournament will
> be ours to deal with for the rest of the weekend. I'm
> guessing he won't actually talk to her while she is on
> the mat (is that the right word?), but I'm sure he will
> be doing it before and after.
>
> 4) Megan is very enthusiastic about the tournament. Megan
> has been known to change her mind in the past and we've
> accommodated that as much as possible. But now that
> we've paid an entry fee and she will be scheduled to
> compete...I'm feeling as if her option to back out
> closed when mailed the entry fee (not because of the
> fee...although $60 is a lot of money right now...more
> because by entering and paying the fee we've made a
> commitment to be there - at her request). But I also realize
> she's seven and that is too to put on her, so other than
> asking "are you sure?" and saying "this means
> you need to go because you are scheduled to be there"
> she isn't getting baggage from me about it. I don't
> love that phrasing, so if there is a better way I can state
> it, I'm open to suggestions.
>
> 5) I've never been to one of these tournaments
> before, so I'm not sure what to expect. I'd like to
> prepare Megan a little bit. Has anyone's kids
> participated in something like this at younger ages?
>
> 6) Ok, so after the tournament...any suggestions on how I
> can support Megan and my niece? They are very likely going
> to have very different experiences.
>
> Thanks,
> Gwen
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Lyla Wolfenstein

yeah we have done that tournament. :(


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

mmmm, I'll have to come up with something fun to do after. Maybe we'll go to the zoo or OMSI or the Children's museum - something so that our whole day isn't focused on the tournament.



Gwen




--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:

> yeah we have done that tournament. :(

Lyla Wolfenstein

ah - that is one of the issues i forgot to mention about those tournaments - they can take *all day*....

not necessarily - but you generally have to arrive at a certain time, but then wait for your match - and it can be hours..


----- Original Message -----
From: Gwen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sports competition



mmmm, I'll have to come up with something fun to do after. Maybe we'll go to the zoo or OMSI or the Children's museum - something so that our whole day isn't focused on the tournament.

Gwen

--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:

> yeah we have done that tournament. :(




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

ok, so far I am not seeing any fun happening! Maybe we'll take the movie listings with us and see a movie after. We can probably work a sundae in there too.

Gwen


--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:

> From: Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sports competition
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 1:00 AM
> ah - that is one of the issues i forgot to mention about
> those tournaments - they can take *all day*....
>
> not necessarily - but you generally have to arrive at a
> certain time, but then wait for your match - and it can be
> hours..
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gwen
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sports competition
>
>
>
> mmmm, I'll have to come up with something fun to do
> after. Maybe we'll go to the zoo or OMSI or the
> Children's museum - something so that our whole day
> isn't focused on the tournament.
>
> Gwen
>
> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Lyla Wolfenstein
> <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
> > yeah we have done that tournament. :(
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Lyla Wolfenstein

i didn't mean to be all doom and gloom. just wanted you to be prepared for the possibility that it would take most of the day. i am sure you can still make it a fun experience for your daughter, with good support and a joyful attitude! is it in gresham?

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katy Jennings

Richard (13) is about to test for his 3 degree black belt. He LOVES competition. I hate it, and I don't get at all how he could enjoy it! It would be painful for me to be in front of all of those people. I was prepared to back out of any tournament at the last minute, even if we had paid. Richard has never wanted to though. He has been competing both locally and nationally since he was 7.



We have been to HUGE national tournaments. I don't know how big the one that you are going to is, but I have been to ones with thousands of competitors. They can be overwhelming. My advise is take snacks in your bag, lots of high protein snacks. The national ones that we have been to had very expensive snack bars with long lines.


Also, be calm, if you are calm, then you can be a center for her in all of the chaos. Take time passing things for her, gameboy, psp, cards, drawing paper, etc.



At first I worried that I would miss the call for Richard's group, because they are big and loud, but all of the ones that we have been to have been really good about making multiple announcements.



I would let her know that she can back out. I understand that you feel like she is obligated since she said she would do it, but it is not like she is an instructor leading part of the competition. So what if she backs out? But at the same time I would also encourage her if she really does want to do it. Let her know that if she does it and doesn't like it she doesn't have to do another. She may love it though.



Most of the big competitions break the groups up so that there are only 6-12 in a ring. Maybe yours will be different, but I doubt it. Ours usually have many many rings. Once you get to your ring, you really don't see all of those people. You may have mentioned this, but has she been to local tournaments? If so point out to her that once you get to your ring it really isn't much different. Or point out the similarity to local testing, or even class. Something she is comfortable with.



I got frustrated when I paid too much attention to the scores, I thought my boy should be scored higher of course! It was all internal, I didn't express my frustration at all. But when I loosened up and just enjoyed watching him and enjoying his happiness it was a lot better for me. Him too, probably, though he never seemed to notice.



I hope that she has a good time, whether she competes, just watches, or stays home.



Katy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

Gwen, you've had some great feedback from people with experience with
martial arts contests.

I'm interested in hearing a bit more about your situation with your niece.
You say she stays/lives with you *every* weekend and holidays? Is she
unschooling? I get the impression that she is not from what you say about
your brother forcing her to do martial arts classes against her desire.

You mentioned some fears about her emotional state after this competition,
which she probably doesn't want to participate in, but which you and your
daughter will have to deal with.

I have to admit I'm curious about how this arrangement works for your
unschooling life.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Gwen

Yes, every weekend and most holidays (we don't normally have her on single day holidays...I'm thinking the longer ones like spring break, most of summer, and spring break).

I imagine it works for us the same way it works for people who have step-kids on the weekends. I do the best I can for her while she is here.

Gwen

--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:

> I'm interested in hearing a bit more about your
> situation with your niece.
> You say she stays/lives with you *every* weekend and
> holidays? Is she unschooling? I get the impression that she is not from what you say about your brother forcing her to do martial arts classes against her desire.
>
> You mentioned some fears about her emotional state after this competition, which she probably doesn't want to participate in, but
> which you and your daughter will have to deal with.
>
> I have to admit I'm curious about how this arrangement works for your
> unschooling life.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com