Joyce Fetteroll

The topic of kids and alcohol occasionally and I thought this blog
entry from the New York Times was interesting in that he observed the
differences between kids who'd been controlled and his parent's
moderate approach.

Near the beginning is the quote from G.K. Chesterton: “The
dipsomaniac and the abstainer are not only both mistaken, but they
both make the same mistake. They both regard wine as a drug and not
as a drink.”

My parents did the same as the author's parents with my sister and
me. I tasted mixed drinks, had a bit of brandy on frigid days after
skiing (and I was never dawn to it any other time), had some -- very
strong! -- mixed drinks (most of which I didn't finish ;-) and wine
my aunt would serve us with Sunday dinner. Both my sister and I have
healthy relationships with alcohol. I did the same with Kathryn,
though she's seen less since we don't drink much. Occasionally a
bottle of wine wanders in and she has half a glass.

Here's a piece from the blog:

http://proof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/why-and-how-i-drink/

> During my formative-drinking years, when alcohol was still a
> relative novelty, I had something that many of my harder-drinking
> friends did not: parents who demonstrated a responsible
> relationship with alcohol. My father and sometimes my mother would
> crack a cold beer on hot days, and wine was regularly served at
> dinner on weekends and special occasions to everyone including the
> kids. They kept a decently stocked liquor cabinet, but usually only
> opened it for drop-by guests and the occasional dinner party, which
> were celebrated in good cheer but were seldom if ever followed by
> awkward phone calls the next day.
>
> This open yet modest approach to alcohol was in contrast to the
> paths taken by the families of some friends and neighbors, whose
> habits ranged from over-indulgent to abstemious and were sometimes
> an odd mix of the two: it was not lost on me during my secular
> Bible Belt upbringing that some of my hardest-drinking friends –
> whose relationships with booze were often of the vomit-in-the-
> shrubbery, loss-of-all-personal-control variety – were from
> religious homes in which alcohol was seldom if ever served.
>
> Knowing that my 6-year-old daughter and 8-year-old son will likely
> start to experiment with alcohol in – let’s be realistic – about a
> decade, give or take, I fully realize that every time my wife or I
> take a drink around them, a message is being sent. There are
> several directions this can go, and I understand I’ll never have
> total control over any of them. If completely banishing alcohol
> from our home would protect them from any of its hazards later in
> life, it’d be an easy choice, but as my old hard-drinking friends
> demonstrated, that’s just a bit too simple and naïve to be a
> realistic option.
>
> Instead, I try to mirror the moderate approach taken by my own
> parents, leavening this with the lessons I learned from these hard-
> drinking friends who had more rigid upbringings, along with those I
> pick up from watching the unique slice of life visible in Las Vegas
> and New Orleans: when it comes to alcohol, an extreme approach at
> either end of the spectrum can be bad news. Too much is always too
> much, and none at all can also be too much; but tacking an even
> course between the two is usually just enough.
>

Joyce

g-liberatedlearning

I'm glad this topic came up. I've wondered about it for a long time.
If it were just me, I would allow either of my kids to have an
occasional drink with dinner, or with company or just with family.
However, I don't keep alcohol in the house due to my husband's
tendency to "drink it if it's there." I enjoy the occasional
alcoholic drink but I abstain at home except for when my husband is
out of town or when we're entertaining -- neither of which happens
very often. I feel like I'm walking on a double-edged sword regarding
alcohol and my kids -- I want them to have exposure to it and others
drinking responsibly, but their father can't be trusted to drink
responsibly. Which is worse - no exposure or a role model of poor
judgment?

Chris
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone

On Feb 6, 2009, at 4:57 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> The topic of kids and alcohol occasionally and I thought this blog
> entry from the New York Times was interesting in that he observed the
> differences between kids who'd been controlled and his parent's
> moderate approach.
>
> Near the beginning is the quote from G.K. Chesterton: �The
> dipsomaniac and the abstainer are not only both mistaken, but they
> both make the same mistake. They both regard wine as a drug and not
> as a drink.�
>
> My parents did the same as the author's parents with my sister and
> me. I tasted mixed drinks, had a bit of brandy on frigid days after
> skiing (and I was never dawn to it any other time), had some -- very
> strong! -- mixed drinks (most of which I didn't finish ;-) and wine
> my aunt would serve us with Sunday dinner. Both my sister and I have
> healthy relationships with alcohol. I did the same with Kathryn,
> though she's seen less since we don't drink much. Occasionally a
> bottle of wine wanders in and she has half a glass.
>
> Here's a piece from the blog:
>
> http://proof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/why-and-how-i-drink/
>
>> During my formative-drinking years, when alcohol was still a
>> relative novelty, I had something that many of my harder-drinking
>> friends did not: parents who demonstrated a responsible
>> relationship with alcohol. My father and sometimes my mother would
>> crack a cold beer on hot days, and wine was regularly served at
>> dinner on weekends and special occasions to everyone including the
>> kids. They kept a decently stocked liquor cabinet, but usually only
>> opened it for drop-by guests and the occasional dinner party, which
>> were celebrated in good cheer but were seldom if ever followed by
>> awkward phone calls the next day.
>>
>> This open yet modest approach to alcohol was in contrast to the
>> paths taken by the families of some friends and neighbors, whose
>> habits ranged from over-indulgent to abstemious and were sometimes
>> an odd mix of the two: it was not lost on me during my secular
>> Bible Belt upbringing that some of my hardest-drinking friends �
>> whose relationships with booze were often of the vomit-in-the-
>> shrubbery, loss-of-all-personal-control variety � were from
>> religious homes in which alcohol was seldom if ever served.
>>
>> Knowing that my 6-year-old daughter and 8-year-old son will likely
>> start to experiment with alcohol in � let�s be realistic � about a
>> decade, give or take, I fully realize that every time my wife or I
>> take a drink around them, a message is being sent. There are
>> several directions this can go, and I understand I�ll never have
>> total control over any of them. If completely banishing alcohol
>> from our home would protect them from any of its hazards later in
>> life, it�d be an easy choice, but as my old hard-drinking friends
>> demonstrated, that�s just a bit too simple and na�ve to be a
>> realistic option.
>>
>> Instead, I try to mirror the moderate approach taken by my own
>> parents, leavening this with the lessons I learned from these hard-
>> drinking friends who had more rigid upbringings, along with those I
>> pick up from watching the unique slice of life visible in Las Vegas
>> and New Orleans: when it comes to alcohol, an extreme approach at
>> either end of the spectrum can be bad news. Too much is always too
>> much, and none at all can also be too much; but tacking an even
>> course between the two is usually just enough.
>>
>
> Joyce
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




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Sandra Dodd

-=-when it comes to alcohol, an extreme approach at
>
> either end of the spectrum can be bad news. Too much is always too
> much, and none at all can also be too much; but tacking an even
> course between the two is usually just enough.
-=-

I think that's true of just about anything.

It's easy for people without any genetic alcoholism to think
moderation will do it for life. I think a casual attitude toward lots
of things (religion, sex, marijuana) can prevent the wind-it-up, wind-
it-up, LAUNCH IT effect of parents telling kids no, no, not until
you're grown/married/older, or no, no, not until I'm dead.

Yet because of my mother's family and my friend Jon Tsosie's family on
both sideas (and others, but those two have been my longitudinal
observations--not only during my lifetime, but family stories in both
families, and observation of the teens in both families who were young
enough to be my own kids, and lately grandkids....) it does seem there
are genetic problems. And whether it involves impulse control or some
sort of bodily "allergy" or propensity to want to replace internal
fluids with alcohol, or maybe it takes the combination of both, it
doesn't seem that modelling (for drinking or against it) or moderation
prevents the problem in those in whom it kicks in.

I don't prohibit my kids alcohol. Keith and I hardly ever drink any.
We drank at Marty's birthday party, and Marty's not even 21, but most
of his friends are, and it was at our house and we provided sleep-over
facilities for anyone who needed it. Many of those who came over
didn't drink at all.

One thing I decided when Kirby was a baby was that they weren't going
to suffer the direct damage that alcoholic relatives inflict, and so
there are relatives of mine who aren't welcome to my house for more
than a couple of hours--no weekend stays. It's not stated, but
they're not invited and I don't offer them beer if they're over, which
is sometimes in itself what gets them easily gone within a couple of
hours. Because my kids don't know and love them, the acoholism (and
related accidents and arrests and job loss and relationship
destruction) don't bother them as much. I hear about it, but one
thing I'm glad I learned when I went to adult children of alcoholics
meetings in my 30's is detachment. I'm able to see that my nephew's
life, my half-brother's life, my cousin's life, are not MY life.

I would love to find out the whole genetics model is something else
only obliquely "causing" alcoholism in individuals, but seeing kids
whose grandparents and great grandparents I knew (or knew from photos
and stories and knew the details of their sometimes alcohol-related
deaths)... it's hard for me not to be very glad for my own kids that
they only have one alcoholic grandparent of four.


It's easy for people without any genetic alcoholism to think
moderation will do it for life. Does their "proof" in their own
family parallel my proof that kids can learn to read without lessons?
I don't think so, but somewhere in the model or the language could be
a place where I could better clarify what I think and say, so I hope
someone here can untangle it for me. Someone else's alcoholism kicked
my life's butt, and although I've worked to consciously move from and
change the effects of that in my own kids' lives, sometimes it's still
hard for me to look at those things without the emotions of a scared
little kid.

Sandra



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Lea

I'm glad this came up too.


> It's easy for people without any genetic alcoholism to think
> moderation will do it for life. I think a casual attitude toward lots
> of things (religion, sex, marijuana) can prevent the wind-it-up, wind-
> it-up, LAUNCH IT effect of parents telling kids no, no, not until
> you're grown/married/older, or no, no, not until I'm dead.


I think I have alcoholism in my blood. I was raised with a semi-loose
attitude. My parents let me sample their martinis or margaritas and
my mom would let me have a small glass of wine when Daddy was out of
town with her at dinner, which I could rarely finish before the age of
10. But my dad had pancreatitis when I was about 13 or so and it was
attributed to excessive alcohol so he stopped drinking. We still had
it in the house and my mom drank occasionally. I was stealing liquor
from them by 14. Who knows why? There was no real taboo for me
surrounding it, no mystery. I was bored and wanted to alter my
consciousness.

I went through some hard times as a young 20 something drinking into
black outs (who didn't I guess right!). I am now able to enjoy the
occasional beer or glass of wine but sometimes I drink them under
times of stress. I do not want my kids to see that as an option. My
own journey of course. But I do think wine or beer with food or in
celebration is fun and OK. Am I in denial? Maybe.

But I do want them to feel free to enjoy alcohol if it is within their
capacity. Should I be open about the blood lines we have that contain
alcoholism and drug addiction and warn them? Do I try to demonstrate
for them other ways to alter consciousness like meditation?

I fully buy into the idea that alcoholism and addiction can be
hereditary and seriously considered not having children because of it.
Now that I have some and love parenting and want more and all that, I
do wonder what the best course of action when it comes to alcohol
consumption should be.

-Lea
Wife to Andy for 8 years
Mom to Andrew (28 months) and Paul T (4 months today!)

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

His parents sound exactly like my parents and all 4 of us have a really healthy relationship with alcohol.
Me and my sister rarely drink and my brother has a cold one here and there and with friends.
We had a stocked bar and my parents only had some drinks when friends where over or special occasions.
We very often had a little red wine glass for lunch on Sundays .
My grandparents gave us Port Wine and things like Amaretto.
I remember been tipsy one time early on . So my parents just guided me towards eating a little and drinking water.
So most of the time I ever felt that way that is what I did in my adult life.
I also never saw my parents drunk. My mom I saw her a little happy a few times after one glass of wine.
She was very sensitive to alcohol and we used to say she got drunk on coke. She rarely really drank any even if dad was having a beer.
My parents talked about it openly about how and why people got drunk and how you could die from it or do stupid things but they talked about it not in a judgmental way. They had drinks for pleasure and not to escape or get drunk and wasted.
We all got  a little drunk one time or another but not with the intention of getting wasted like the young people here in the US.
I remember getting drunk for not eating and sipping off my boyfriend's drink. He took me home and put me in bed.
I used to fly with a French pilot and we once had the same discussion of how in France they give their kids alcohol like in Brazil.
That it is not a prohibited thing and the youth does not go out to get drunk  like the youth here.



 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 



.

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Should I be open about the blood lines we have that contain
alcoholism and drug addiction and warn them? -=-

They're a little young to warn them now. <g>

I've told my kids from time to time to remember to be careful. I said
people aren't sure what causes it but it's possible they'll be
drinking with friends who are in no danger of alcoholism but that
doesn't mean everyone in the group will be that way, and so to be
aware and not to ruin their lives or other people's lives. Not all
that at once, but over the course of years, casual mentions here and
there.

-=-Do I try to demonstrate
for them other ways to alter consciousness like meditation? -=-

That wouldn't hurt in any case, if it's something that can come
naturally in your family.
Kirby was ten when I had a meditation session with him and showed him
how he could really still his mind and slow his heart, right in his
own home. I remember him being really quiet and into it for quite a
long time, and Marty playing around quietly in and out of where we
were, and Holly being asleep in the next room.


Sandra

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raisingexplorers

This is long, I know.. but, it's a topic that I wrestle with.. it's
one of those things that I just really don't know how I will deal with
it. But, it is an extremely important thing to address, with my boys,
I believe.

My husband and I do not drink any alcohol. My mother was a closet
drunk and actually she died from her alcoholism in october of 2006. I
did not know she was an alcoholic until I was 19-20 yrs old (that's
just 6 years before she died). My father drank in front of us.. he was
very open with his alcohol consumption, which, in my opinion as an
adult, was bordering and sometimes overstepping what I would consider
an appropriate amount of alcohol for a parent to drink while being the
sole adult responsible for a group of children. As a kid, he was just
very funny and cool. LOL

I grew up and never drank alcohol.. never even tried alcohol until I
was probably 23 or 24 years old. I wasn't scared of getting in
trouble... I didn't really grasp alcoholism or the fact that my
parents were both heavy drinkers. I just wasn't interested. I drank
responsibly for a couple of years, as an adult, and I got drunk maybe
two or three times, in those years and it was kind of fun, but I
thought, not as fun as if I had been sober.. alcohol never really did
anything for me, it was a lot more expensive than soda or water.. so,
I never really understood the appeal. It just didn't seem to have any
affect unless I drank a ton of it and got smashed. Which was stupid,
to me.

My brother is an alcoholic. A real alcoholic who drinks a lot and has
a lot of trouble with the law because of drinking.. and cannot grasp
that, at this point, he is unable to control how much alcohol he
drinks. It's sad really and it sucks. I worry about him a lot.

My husband is an alcoholic who has been fighting with alcoholism since
he was like daggone 10. He's been sober for a bit over 2 years. His
father was very non-chalant about alcohol and frequently gave him a
beer or two on fishing trips and such. His maternal grandfather was an
alcoholic. As an adult, he has no control over how much alcohol he
drinks. At first, it seems like he can say.. just one beer. But, it
will slowly progress into downing a pint of vodka in just a couple
swallows. It's scary, it's nerve wracking... there's been times when I
thought he was probably going to die.

Looking back at my family, there is not a generation that has not been
affected by alcoholism. My great grandpa was.. my meemaw & my
grandfather had to completely stop drinking because of alcoholism..
all of their children are alcoholics - two of them have died from
it... and all of my cousins are alcoholics,... I seem to be the only
one who is unaffected by this. I am also the only one who chose not to
drink alcohol under age. Maybe there is a correlation, maybe not.

But, I hope alcohol is something my boys just won't be drawn towards.
It is something I cannot model for them. I could probably drink
alcohol just fine (that's really just a guess that I wouldn't want to
push too far)... but, out of respect for my husband, I do not.. out of
remembering what it did to my mom, I just don't do it. To me it is not
just a drink... I've watched it destroy people's bodies, and destroy
lives, and tear families apart... I know, in excessive amounts.. but,
the threat is there - they all started by drinking in moderation. If
alcoholism is genetic, the threat is very real to my children. If it's
passed down, somehow, in genes, there is a high probability that if my
sons drink.. it will be their destruction, regardless of what I have
said to them or modeled for them.

I don't intend to just say, "Alcohol is bad. Blahh." But, I will be
very adamant about the necessity for caution in their experience.
It's scary to think about. I have a good amount of time before the
boys will even come into contact with alcohol.. but, just the other
day, I had to explain why alcohol is different than a regular drink
when my son was worried about drinking his juice in the car.. he had
seen those drunk driving commercials and didn't understand why police
were pulling people over for drinking.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I absolutely think some people are genetically predisposed to be and alcoholic.
Having said that having a happy childhood, being raised by wonderful parents,
being an unschooler is not the same as some kids and adults that drink to make live bearable, 
that drink out of stress, pain , to escape life, to rebel......

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







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Schuyler

I went looking up the genetic links with alcoholism. Twin studies put the genetic influence at a range of 50%-60% of alcoholism. Which means that environment plays a role of 40%-50%. The genetics are all tangled, it is not a single locus, it's a number of different things. And how they react with each other probably has a lot to do with the environment within which those genes play out.

It isn't straightforward. Being the child of alcoholics isn't going to make you an alcoholic, but being both their child and raised in an actively alcoholic home might do it. And you might be the grandchild of an alcoholic with alcoholism not expressed in your natal home and have enough stress or neglect or whatever it is that flips that trigger so that the genes line up and express the alcoholism in a way that wouldn't have played out in a different home. Having the genes required for alcoholism doesn't predetermine alcoholism, it just tips the scale.

You can be an alcoholic without the genetics, or so I assume (with discussions with David going on while I write this). Conversely, or so it would seem to me, you can be an alcoholic without the environment. Although Rat Park would argue against that. And I really like Rat Park. So, maybe you can't be an alcoholic without the right environment. Maybe addiction is a reaction to the environment as opposed to a disease that strikes unavoidably? I like that story the best. I think that's the one I'll tell.

Oh, I couldn't quite let go and send this. I found a look at the genetics of alcoholism and the studies that talk about where the pre-disposition may lie: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=103780 I'll quote the introduction, which I found most interesting:


The tendency for drinking patterns of children to resemble those of
their parents has been recognized since antiquity, e.g., in the
observations of Plato and Aristotle (Warner and Rosett, 1975). Alcoholism is probably a multifactorial, genetically influenced disorder (Goodwin, 1976).
The genetic influence is indicated by studies showing that (1) there is
a 25 to 50% lifetime risk for alcoholism in sons and brothers of
severely alcoholic men; (2) alcohol preference can be selectively bred
for in experimental animals; (3) there is a 55% or higher concordance
rate in monozygotic twins with only a 28% rate for like-sex dizygotic
twins; and (4) half brothers with different fathers and adopted sons of
alcoholic men show a rate of alcoholism more like that of the biologic
father than that of the foster father. A possible biochemical basis is
a metabolic difference such that those prone to alcoholism have higher
levels of a metabolite giving pleasurable effects or those not prone to
alcoholism have higher levels of a metabolite giving unpleasant
effects. Schuckit and Rayses (1979) found that, after a moderate dose of alcohol, blood acetaldehyde levels
were elevated more in young men with alcoholic parents or sibs than in
controls. A certain degree of organ specificity in the pathologic
effects of alcohol is observed. For example, patients have
cardiomyopathy, cirrhosis, or pancreatitis but rarely more than one of
these. A genetic basis of organ specificity is evident in
Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (277730) and pancreatitis from type V hyperlipidemia (238400). Cloninger (1987) identified 2 separate heritable types of alcoholism. Type 1 alcohol
abuse had its usual onset after the age of 25 years and was
characterized by severe psychological dependence and guilt. It occurred
in both men and women and required both genetic and environmental
factors to become manifest. By contrast, type 2 alcohol abuse had its
onset before the age of 25; persons with this type of alcoholism were
characterized by their inability to abstain from alcohol and by
frequent aggressive and antisocial behavior. Type 2 alcoholism was
rarely found in women and was much more heritable. Abnormalities in
platelet monoamine oxidase activity were found only in type 2
alcoholics (Von Knorring et al., 1985). See comments by Omenn (1988).

That leads me to this:

Psychopathology in adopted-out children of alcoholics. The Stockholm Adoption Study.
Cloninger CR, Bohman M, Sigvardsson S, von Knorring AL.
The
inheritance of alcohol abuse and other psychopathology was studied in
862 men and 913 women adopted by nonrelatives at an early age in
Sweden. Both male and female adoptees had a greater risk of alcohol
abuse if their biologic, but not adoptive, parents were alcoholic. We
distinguished two types of alcoholism that have distinct genetic and
environmental causes and that differ in frequency of alcohol abuse and
somatoform disorders in women. The combination of both genetic and
environmental risk factors is required for development of alcoholism in
the most common type. In contrast, in families with the less common
type of susceptibility, alcohol abuse is highly heritable in the men,
but the women have multiple somatic complaints without alcohol abuse.
The implications of these findings of genetic heterogeneity and
gene-environment interaction are discussed in relation to research,
prevention, and treatment.
Oh, now I'm all distracted. Maybe it answers some questions?

Schuyler


________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 6 February, 2009 8:25:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Alcohol

I absolutely think some people are genetically predisposed to be and alcoholic.
Having said that having a happy childhood, being raised by wonderful parents,
being an unschooler is not the same as some kids and adults that drink to make live bearable,
that drink out of stress, pain , to escape life, to rebel......


Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/








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------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- Both male and female adoptees had a greater risk of alcohol
abuse if their biologic, but not adoptive, parents were alcoholic.-=-

I thought of mentioning that this morning but figured adoption flips
too many people's switches. I've seen alcoholic adoptees in not-at-
all alcoholic families, and I've seen mean thieves in families of
honest peaceful people. (Sorry to those who hate to think about any
negatives related to adoption, but there it is. I've seen it and I'm
unwilling to withhold information to comfort people who are used to
"la la la.")

I know a very musical adopted son of tone-deaf parents. All they
knew of his birthparents is they were both musicians. He became a
professional musician. They encouraged him and provided instruments
and opportunities, but he didn't get it from them.

Sandra

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Wendy

Very interesting topic. I've enjoyed reading this. Not sure if this
contributes in the proper way this group functions (I'm still new) but for
what it's worth, me and my husband are both alcoholic, sober 20 & 30 years,
respectively. My mothers dad was an alcoholic and what little she has
shared it was pretty abusive and hurtful to all. So her experience, I
believe, caused her to have very strong opinions about drinking. She once
asked me if I ever wanted to drink or smoke. I knew if I answered honestly
she'd give me "a good talkin' to", so I lied. I often wonder if they would
have been more open about things if I would have made different choices. Or
did I ever have a choice? hmmm, who knows.

My husband is adopted and was raised in a very good, relatively normal,
home. And he was sent to treatment for alcohol and drugs at age 17. We
don't know anything about his birth parents.

I always knew, at least since I was sober, that I would be open and honest
with my kids. My parents hid so much from me, I "launched" into several
activities that I wonder if a little reality may have prevented. I have
shared with my kids about my alcoholism (only a little b/c they are still
young). I don't think alcohol is the devil and so don't talk with them
about it that way. i do tell them that if and when they do drink to just be
aware that "if' it is genetic, they got a double dose.

This summer we were having dinner with friends who were drinking beer.
I encouraged my kids to taste it if they wanted. My oldest (10) wouldn't
(I hope I haven't freaked him out about it). My middle one (8) was very
curious to taste it (she didn't like it) and my youngest (6) only smelled it
(he said "smells like bread"...lol).

I may comment more later, but I'm getting a migraine and this white screen
is not helping.

--
Peace,
Wendy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-my youngest (6) only smelled it
(he said "smells like bread"...lol).-=-

Did you follow up on that? There's a reason beer smells like bread.

"There was probably a close connection between the production of beer and bread, the
domestication of barley, and the social and ceremonial importance of the alcohol in beer.
Beer was produced from bread, and barley is a very suitable cereal for both bread and
beer production. Additionally, alcohol has been emphasized to have an important role in
social relationship, in matters of reciprocity and obligation. The archaeologists Solomon
Katz and Mary Voight have proposed that the development of settled agriculture was
dependent on the desire to brew beer."
http://www.answers.com/topic/beer-origins-and-ancient-history
That article refers to beer as "cereal wine."

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.5/kavanagh.html

If you google something like "relationship between beer and bread" you'll get lots of fun,
some scholarly, some easy-to-read stuff.

Sandra

troubadour4me

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
I absolutely think some people are genetically predisposed to be and
alcoholic.
Having said that having a happy childhood, being raised by wonderful
parents,
being an unschooler is not the same as some kids and adults that drink
to make
live bearable,
that drink out of stress, pain , to escape life, to rebel......

>I think this is so true! I completely missed this thread. (sorry Sandra)
I have alcoholics on my mother's side. She avoided any and all drinks
in the house. when she went out with my dad sometimes, she would
drink.We liked her better. My dad drank beer and kept it in the house.
I went through a big drinking time during the 80's but didn't become
an alcoholic. My Husband and I don't understand how these people he
knows across the street drink day and night. We both couldn't finish
two beers if we wanted too. Does something happen to your body when
you get older?

Sandra Dodd

-=-Does something happen to your body when
you get older?-=-

LOTS of stuff!!!

Not about alcoholism, though, as far as I know. :-)


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> We both couldn't finish two beers if we wanted too. Does something happen to your body when you get older? <<<<

I think something does happen as we age that makes drinking as much as
we once could harder.

~Katherine

Schuyler

If you drink more you can drink more, up to a point and then you get cirrhosis of the liver. I often have a glass or two of wine as I'm fixing dinner. If I haven't drunk for a while I can't drink more than a glass without feeling a bit loopy. You have to keep your tolerance up.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: troubadour4me <ronniegreek@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 February, 2009 5:34:46 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Alcohol

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
I absolutely think some people are genetically predisposed to be and
alcoholic.
Having said that having a happy childhood, being raised by wonderful
parents,
being an unschooler is not the same as some kids and adults that drink
to make
live bearable,
that drink out of stress, pain , to escape life, to rebel......

>I think this is so true! I completely missed this thread. (sorry Sandra)
I have alcoholics on my mother's side. She avoided any and all drinks
in the house. when she went out with my dad sometimes, she would
drink.We liked her better. My dad drank beer and kept it in the house.
I went through a big drinking time during the 80's but didn't become
an alcoholic. My Husband and I don't understand how these people he
knows across the street drink day and night. We both couldn't finish
two beers if we wanted too. Does something happen to your body when
you get older?




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 11, 2009, at 5:53 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-my youngest (6) only smelled it
> (he said "smells like bread"...lol).-=-
>
> Did you follow up on that? There's a reason beer smells like bread.
>
> "There was probably a close connection between the production of
> beer and bread, the
> domestication of barley, and the social and ceremonial importance of
> the alcohol in beer.
> Beer was produced from bread, and barley is a very suitable cereal
> for both bread and
> beer production. Additionally, alcohol has been emphasized to have
> an important role in
> social relationship, in matters of reciprocity and obligation. The
> archaeologists Solomon
> Katz and Mary Voight have proposed that the development of settled
> agriculture was
> dependent on the desire to brew beer."
> http://www.answers.com/topic/beer-origins-and-ancient-history
> That article refers to beer as "cereal wine."
>
> http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.5/kavanagh.html
>
> If you google something like "relationship between beer and bread"
> you'll get lots of fun,
> some scholarly, some easy-to-read stuff.
>
> Sandra

During Prohibition, Anheuser Busch survived by producing yeast instead
of beer, among other things.

Nancy (Fount of Trivia ;-)

Joanna Murphy

My understanding is that our livers get less efficient as we age, making it harder for our
bodies to process the toxins in alcohol. I know I certainly can't handle it like I used to!!

Joanna

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> >>>> We both couldn't finish two beers if we wanted too. Does something happen to your
body when you get older? <<<<
>
> I think something does happen as we age that makes drinking as much as
> we once could harder.
>
> ~Katherine
>

Schuyler

I hope this comes through, but here's an abstract that mentions age and liver volume:

Reviews in Clinical Gerontology (2002), 12:1:12-20 Cambridge University Press
Copyright © 2002 Cambridge University Press
doi:10.1017/S0959259802012133
________________________________


Biological gerontology

Age-related changes in liver, gall bladder and
pancreas
________________________________

Hilary A Wynne a1 c1
a1 Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle, UK.



Although
a reduced liver size in elderly people has long been recognized from
post-mortem studies, these studies do not allow the separation of true
‘age-related’ differences from the effects of premorbid illness, and
death. An age-related effect was confirmed however by an in vivo study
which measured liver size by ultrasound scanning of healthy
individuals. This demonstrated a significant negative correlation
between age and liver volume, with volumes being 28% lower in
individuals above the age of 65 compared with those under 40 years of
age.
Correspondence:
c1 Address for correspondence: HA Wynne, Department
of Care of the Elderly, Royal Victoria Infirmary,
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 4LP, UK.




________________________________
From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 February, 2009 9:32:51 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Alcohol

My understanding is that our livers get less efficient as we age, making it harder for our
bodies to process the toxins in alcohol. I know I certainly can't handle it like I used to!!

Joanna

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> >>>> We both couldn't finish two beers if we wanted too. Does something happen to your
body when you get older? <<<<
>
> I think something does happen as we age that makes drinking as much as
> we once could harder.
>
> ~Katherine
>





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan Lake

Did anyone already post this new article?
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/12/coolparents.drinking/

It's terrible that she gave alcohol to this kid and he died, but it was also
a mistake to let him drive afterward. Growing up with alcohol around and
with examples of responsible drinking, this should not be as much of a
problem. Still, don't drink and drive is the rule for everyone.. kids and
grownups alike.

Unfortunately, the parents in that town are all finding ways to pass more
laws restricting the rights of parents and kids and turn them into criminals
because of someone's bad behavior...

"We can't be enablers. We've got to be adults and say 'no.' "

"We're not here as parents to be their best friends," Snapp said. "We are
here to guide them for life."

~Dan


On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>wrote:

>
> I hope this comes through, but here's an abstract that mentions age and
> liver volume:
>
> Reviews in Clinical Gerontology (2002), 12:1:12-20 Cambridge University
> Press
> Copyright (c) 2002 Cambridge University Press
> doi:10.1017/S0959259802012133
> ________________________________
>
> Biological gerontology
>
> Age-related changes in liver, gall bladder and
> pancreas
> ________________________________
>
> Hilary A Wynne a1 c1
> a1 Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle, UK.
>
> Although
> a reduced liver size in elderly people has long been recognized from
> post-mortem studies, these studies do not allow the separation of true
> 'age-related' differences from the effects of premorbid illness, and
> death. An age-related effect was confirmed however by an in vivo study
> which measured liver size by ultrasound scanning of healthy
> individuals. This demonstrated a significant negative correlation
> between age and liver volume, with volumes being 28% lower in
> individuals above the age of 65 compared with those under 40 years of
> age.
> Correspondence:
> c1 Address for correspondence: HA Wynne, Department
> of Care of the Elderly, Royal Victoria Infirmary,
> Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 4LP, UK.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@... <ridingmom%40mac.com>>
> To: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 February, 2009 9:32:51 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Alcohol
>
> My understanding is that our livers get less efficient as we age, making it
> harder for our
> bodies to process the toxins in alcohol. I know I certainly can't handle it
> like I used to!!
>
> Joanna
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> k <katherand@...> wrote:
> >
> > >>>> We both couldn't finish two beers if we wanted too. Does something
> happen to your
> body when you get older? <<<<
> >
> > I think something does happen as we age that makes drinking as much as
> > we once could harder.
> >
> > ~Katherine
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]