sorschasmom

My Mil (who is really cool and we get along beautifully) just came
for a visit. She almost always (yes, that's a true use of words
there) has questions or concerns about our lifestyle that we address
in a supportive manner. We LIKE that she ask questions and she LIKES
that we give her information regarding her concerns. After her
visits we typically send her weblinks that support our 'answers'.

Here are two concerns she had that we need further information that
supports our decisions. If anyone can supply website links, etc. we
would appreciate it.

Here goes…

She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
about older children and co-sleeping out there?

She is concerned that Tails receives what we call `monthly money'
(some would call it an allowance) and that we do not have required
chores in order for her to receive it. Sandra's
(http://sandradodd.com/chores) is good but it doesn't really address
what Mil considers the receipt of `free money'. I also found
(http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%
20behavior/chores/tyingallowancetochores.html).

Thanks for any links that you can provide. I'm sure my Mil will
appreciate them.
~Crystal in Albuquerque~
http://livingtheliquidlife.blogspot.com/

Pamela Sorooshian

My youngest daughter who is now 17 was still frequently sleeping with
us up to a few years ago. She had her own room and sometimes she'd
sleep there - but she'd often crawl in beside me and snuggle up and
fall asleep.

Not sure what she means by "independent," though. Can you clarify that?

-pam

On Dec 7, 2008, at 7:25 PM, sorschasmom wrote:

> She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
> thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
> only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> about older children and co-sleeping out there?

k

We have some friends in Pittsburgh who weren't unschoolers whose only child
co-slept until age 11. She had her own room but frequently slept with one
or both of her parents.

Karl is only 5, has his own room, and still sleeps with us the majority of
the time. This summer he occasionally slept by himself just because a room
to himself was new and fun and exciting. Now that it's winter, he almost
always sleeps with us. He quit naps this year too.

I think the concept of independence isn't near as important as the concept
of seeing one's options and making choices. To make independence a sort of
"have to" kind of milestone or something like that is (to me) beside the
point. For instance, Karl has begun announcing that he needs complete
privacy for going to the bathroom these days. Some people would say that's
independence. Maybe so. I see it as suddenly realizing he doesn't want
company in the bathroom and creating personal space where it's *his* choice
to have space. That's very different from the typical idea of encouraging
notions of independence before a child really even wants it.

~Katherine





On 12/7/08, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> My youngest daughter who is now 17 was still frequently sleeping with
> us up to a few years ago. She had her own room and sometimes she'd
> sleep there - but she'd often crawl in beside me and snuggle up and
> fall asleep.
>
> Not sure what she means by "independent," though. Can you clarify that?
>
> -pam
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 7:25 PM, sorschasmom wrote:
>
> > She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
> > thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
> > only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> > about older children and co-sleeping out there?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:25 PM, sorschasmom wrote:

> She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
> thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
> only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> about older children and co-sleeping out there?

Kat slept in our room until she was 14. She had problems in the
middle of the night a few times on sleep overs (though always went
eagerly.) I'm not sure how much longer sleeping with us would have
gone on but we got ferrets and she decided to move into her bedroom
with them when she was 14. The next summer, before she turned 15, she
found a 2 week summer car design camp in Detroit she wanted to go to.
Carl drove her out and dropped her off. (Not with out various qualms
on our part, of course! That wasn't the least bit easy!) She had zero
problems. She called us every night for the first few nights but then
that dropped off. (It was a very intensive camp so she was very busy
late at night.) She didn't even suffer homesickness. She flew back
all on her own with a layover. She did another camp at 16 in
Minneapolis with a week before stay with a friend in Chicago, flying
by herself. Even so, no one would have claimed she showed any other
signs of independence, eg, wanting to be out living on her own. It
really wasn't until this year at 17 that she's talked in more
independent terms.

This outcome flies in the face of conventional so-called "wisdom" but
it matches human nature better. Conventional wisdom says we need to
make kids be independent. But that doesn't make sense. Children -- as
with all animals -- are naturally dependent. If kids feel to the
core of their being that they have a solid foundation of
unconditional support that will last as long as they need it, they
can spend their time and energy exploring their world pushing their
comfort level to their own personal edge. It's hard to explore when
you're spending your time and energy worrying about the stability of
your foundation and your personal safety.

(Maslow's hierarchy of needs fits with that explanation:
http://tinyurl.com/6ujce)

(Would *anyone* think it's a great idea for western scientists to
swoop into a natural tribe and tell them they need to let go of their
infants and toddlers and make them live their days with other kids
and adult strangers? Would it even make sense to fear that because
natural tribe families spend their days and nights together that
generations of adults are still living with their parents, unable to
let go? The tribes would have died out long ago if it weren't
biologically natural to seek independence when it was biologically
time to.)

When humans and animals reach the equivalent of teen years, that need
to be independent and do things on their own kicks in. They're hard
wired that way: hormones or whatever start being produced and make
them want to do things for themselves and on their own. Independence
is perfectly natural when humans are late teens to early 20's. (It
comes later and earlier to some, of course, just like walking and
talking and reading.)

When people are filled to the brim with what they need, they can let
go when other needs come along. It's the kids who need to hold on but
who feel pushed away with the overt or silent message of "You need to
be independent" who hold on as long as they're allowed, trying to get
their fill. That feeling of insecurity will interfere when the drive
to be independent arrives. (Another way parents can interfere with
independence besides pushing is filling kids with fear when the kids
start making forays into independence)

> She is concerned that Tails receives what we call `monthly money'
> (some would call it an allowance) and that we do not have required
> chores in order for her to receive it. Sandra's
> (http://sandradodd.com/chores) is good but it doesn't really address
> what Mil considers the receipt of `free money'. I also found
> (http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%
> 20behavior/chores/tyingallowancetochores.html).


The concept of needing to work for money is not brain surgery ;-)
Unless parents never mention finances and lie about where the
breadwinner goes each day, kids can't grow to adulthood without
realizing that money doesn't come for free from an ATM ;-) They *are*
going to grasp that they'll need a job for their own money. That need
to have control over their lives, as well as what money comes in and
how much goes out and where, is a part of natural independence.

In the unnecessary process of teaching kids that they need to earn
their money we can end up teaching them lessons we don't intend.
They'll see that mom and dad share the money freely but are stingy
when it comes to the kids. Unless there's barely enough money for
basic necessities, kids really can't grasp that a lot of the money is
for family maintenance and not "free to do as your please money"
because all kids really see is parents freely choosing to spend money
(and parents often do mix in "free choice" purchases too so shopping
is rarely clear cut). It's not until they're adults with their own
obligations that they can grasp that concept in an adult way. Until
then they get a very different message than we intend.

If we tie their money to chores ... well, there are a huge number of
unintended lessons they learn that I've talked about over the years.
There are 15 pages (!) of the common concerns about chores at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

down the right hand side.

Because we've always helped her get what she needed, Kat doesn't feel
needy for money. And, as a teen she's very conscious of spending
money that she didn't contribute to earning. Not because we've taught
her that, but because it's time for her to see the world that way as
she grows toward independence. How many conventionally parented teens
can you hand $20 to who won't hope that mom and dad forget to ask for
the change, or who might lie about how much something was so they can
keep the change? Not because they're dishonest, but because they
don't feel supported in their needs and the only way to get some
independent money is covertly (or getting a job under pressure).

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Would *anyone* think it's a great idea for western scientists to
swoop into a natural tribe and tell them they need to let go of their
infants and toddlers and make them live their days with other kids
and adult strangers? -=-

Hundreds of years of Christian missionaries; yes.

When people think souls are more important than anything else, and
that only European culture is right and good and others are
"primitive," then thousands of people thought it was a great idea.

Governments dealing with indigenous people? I really don't want to
get into that on this list, but yes. "Scientists" (social
scientists) justified it.

Would anyone thing it's a great idea in 2008? I hope not.

-=-The concept of needing to work for money is not brain
surgery ;-) ...) They *are* going to grasp that they'll need a job
for their own money. That need to have control over their lives, as
well as what money comes in and how much goes out and where, is a
part of natural independence.-=-

Even though we gave our kids free money, and we bought them things
pretty freely as we could afford to, they've all been eager to have
jobs and to have money, and they're all responsible with it. I
think it's the withholding of money, and stinginess, and limitations,
that make kids grasping and dishonest and sneaky and desperate.

Yesterday Holly wanted her allowance and Keith told her she could go
and get it out of his wallet. Her allowance is $12.75. He has a
change bowl on his desk. Neither of us thought for a second that she
would get $13, or $50. Since they were really little, our kids
have treated money as a family resource, just like anything else we
had. When they got big enough to go to the store alone, they'd bring
back the change and the receipt, not because they would be in trouble
if they didn't, but just because it wasn't their money and they
brought back the extra. For years I've said "You can get something
for yourself if you want to," and more often than not they don't, and
when they do it's a single candy bar, or shampoo, or a bottle of
chocolate milk maybe.

I can't say for sure why it happened, Crystal. Some might be genetic/
personality, but it might be something that would make your mom feel
better.



Sandra



Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

My link: human evolution
My supporting professional: YOU

I know you are parenting your children the way that you FEEL is right, in your soul. This is enough. There does not need to be a "supporting link" for anyone, whether because it's fun to debate worthiness, or easier for them to sit with something if some "professional or study" can corroborate your parenting. They don't have to agree. I read that you and your mom or MIL like to debate these things--that's great! But, I am just giving you my support basically and maybe a reminder that your soul and gut instinct in parenting IS the professional--it IS the study.

When you look back upon our evolution, we co-slept for safety. If you were alone at night, in the darkness, you were more apt to be eaten by predators. Safety in numbers--safety in pairs. This is still true-when your child or friend or husband or wife want to go shopping, you want them to be with someone. It is safer. Why (I ask) does our culture (and others) look down upon safety and comfort in numbers or pairs when it comes to simple things like sleeping? OF COURSE it is safer, more comforting more__________(you pick the word) for children to share their sleep time with others. Sometimes it's siblings and that's what works for the kids, usually it's parents. It is in our very DNA, that we crave this extra safety and comfort in the darkness. i think we deny our own evolutionary smarts by ignoring these automatic emotional needs.

My kids have co-slept--with us or eachother, now both! We have a king and 2 twins in our room for the 5 of us. My oldest is 14, then 9 and 6, all boys. My oldest would be sleeping in his own room if his room was right next to ours--but we live in a "split" plan (stupidist idea in the western world if you ask me!) and that move for him will wait until we move to a different house in the near future. I think he would prefer his own room in that case, shared with his 9 year old brother--they've done it before when we lived in a house set up 'properly'--it was wonderful. But right now, my 9 year old likes to drift off holding my hand, my 6 year old likes snuggling between daddy and I and drifts off to story and song.

Frankly, some of our best discussions and communication is done in the bed late at night--all of us in the dark (somewhat) and the kids really connect with us and with eachother in ways that maybe the light of day inhibits. These memories, this comfort, I am sure, will be the things we all hold on tight to throughout our lives.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know you are parenting your children the way that you FEEL is
right, in your soul. This is enough. There does not need to be a
"supporting link" for anyone,-=-

Mamachaos,
Although you did go on to be supportive, this beginning of your post
is inappropriate for this list. Many parents "FEEL it is right in
their souls" to spank their children, to shame them, to ground them,
to send them to school against their will and to punish them for not
doing schoolwork.

When someone comes to a discussion list and asks for links, she
probably really does want links.

-=-There does not need to be a "supporting link" for anyone, whether
because it's fun to debate worthiness, or easier for them to sit with
something if some "professional or study" can corroborate your
parenting. They don't have to agree.-=-

When professionals and studies DO corroborate what we're doing it's
pretty damned cool. They don't have to agree. But when we've
discovered something through being brave enough to go against the
prevailing culture, and we've shared it here to the point that many
others have tried it confidently, and then a study comes along that
says "Yeah, here's why that makes sense," that's cool.

This part of the post was great:

-=-When you look back upon our evolution, we co-slept for safety. If
you were alone at night, in the darkness, you were more apt to be
eaten by predators. Safety in numbers--safety in pairs. This is still
true-when your child or friend or husband or wife want to go
shopping, you want them to be with someone. It is safer. Why (I ask)
does our culture (and others) look down upon safety and comfort in
numbers or pairs when it comes to simple things like sleeping? OF
COURSE it is safer, more comforting more__________(you pick the word)
for children to share their sleep time with others. Sometimes it's
siblings and that's what works for the kids, usually it's parents. It
is in our very DNA, that we crave this extra safety and comfort in
the darkness. i think we deny our own evolutionary smarts by ignoring
these automatic emotional needs.

-=-My kids have co-slept--with us or eachother, now both! We have a
king and 2 twins in our room for the 5 of us. My oldest is 14, then 9
and 6, all boys. My oldest would be sleeping in his own room if his
room was right next to ours--but we live in a "split" plan (stupidist
idea in the western world if you ask me!) and that move for him will
wait until we move to a different house in the near future. I think
he would prefer his own room in that case, shared with his 9 year old
brother--they've done it before when we lived in a house set up
'properly'--it was wonderful. But right now, my 9 year old likes to
drift off holding my hand, my 6 year old likes snuggling between
daddy and I and drifts off to story and song.

-=-Frankly, some of our best discussions and communication is done in
the bed late at night--all of us in the dark (somewhat) and the kids
really connect with us and with eachother in ways that maybe the
light of day inhibits. These memories, this comfort, I am sure, will
be the things we all hold on tight to throughout our lives.-=-

To the author of that (and the less wonderful first paragraph) and
anyone else who wonders why I've written this, please go to these two
links before posting further:

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

http://sandradodd.com/support

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

> She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
> thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
> only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> about older children and co-sleeping out there?
>


I slept with my mom off and on until she got remarried when I was 13.
I don't remember how often, exactly, but I know I was always welcome to
when I wanted to. I was also considered very mature and independent by
most people who knew me. I got my first job at 14, graduated high
school at 16, moved out at 17 and got married at 18.

My neice slept with her parents until she was 10. She is now 12,
sleeping in her own room just fine, and recently went away to a 5 day
camp with no problems.

My daughter is 3 and still sleeping with us. I think it really helped
her adjust to her new baby sister. She's very independent and outgoing
for her age. She will talk to anyone, and I can leave her in places
like church nurseries without any fuss, even if it's a new place.

All that to say that I don't believe that a kid sleeping with his or
her parent's is going to be still living with them at 30, which is
probably your MIL's fear. Kid's who feel secure (at all times of day
and night) will be better prepared to go face the world.

Sandra Dodd

-=-All that to say that I don't believe that a kid sleeping with his or
her parent's is going to be still living with them at 30, which is
probably your MIL's fear.-=-

I wouldn't mind if some or all of my kids were living with me when
they were past the tradition "get out" age. Marty's about to turn 20
and he's here. Kirby would've been here if he hadn't been offered a
job in Texas.

For all the attention that miles-per-gallon and emissions standards
and plastic bags in landfills get, the idea of SO many people living
in apartments alone, or so many little houses for one or two people
doesn't get discussed much.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> (Would *anyone* think it's a great idea for western scientists to
> swoop into a natural tribe and tell them they need to let go of their
> infants and toddlers and make them live their days with other kids
> and adult strangers? Would it even make sense to fear that because
> natural tribe families spend their days and nights together that
> generations of adults are still living with their parents, unable to
> let go? The tribes would have died out long ago if it weren't
> biologically natural to seek independence when it was biologically
> time to.)


The first time I ever considered the idea of older kids co-sleeping, was
because of reading the book, Poisonwood Bible. One of the characters
was lamenting because her youngest boy child wanted to sleep on his own
mat at a younger age than his older brothers had. I think he was around
11 or so and his older brothers had stopped sleeping in the family bed
when they reached puberty.

I found this article on Jan Hunt's website. It's interesting. I'm not
sure it has the answers you want, but lots of intersting thoughts about
sleep...

http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/9_25_99/bob2.htm
<http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/9_25_99/bob2.htm>

It probably is more natural than seperate sleeping arrangements.
Chamille has on and off slept with us or her own room ever since she was
about 2. I think people forget that as humans, we haven't always lived
in big multi-roomed houses. Kids often slept together in one bed, or
slept in the same sleeping area as the parents.

When my dad was born, he had 3 older sisters, and his dad worked in a
logging camp. His family lived in camp housing which consisted of a
basic 2 room cabin which had a kitchen/living area, and a bedroom, it
didn't even have a bathroom or running water. It was VERY small. I can
only imagine that there had to be co-sleeping in such a small space. A
hundred years ago, it was more typical to have more children and live in
smaller spaces.

Other cultures are different too. My kids have been fascinated with the
movie, My Neighbor Totoro. The girls who are about 6 and 11 both bathe
with their dad, in one big tub and they sleep on their mats together in
one room. As I was trying to find information on co-sleeping with older
children, I ran across several references to Japanese culture that,
encourages extended co-sleeping up until 15 yrs of age, and also
ecourages multi-generational co-sleeping. To sleep alone is not
considered a good thing.

As far as money and allowance goes, if you'd spend the money on her
anyway, why can't she have it herself? That is what has given my kids
more freedom of choices, and at the same time allowed us to be able to
get out of a store without "having" to buy something. Both my girls
have bank accounts. We started off with giving cash, when they are/were
little, then, as they got older we started doing an automatic debit into
their account, so that saving could happen. Our younger daughter still
gets cash, but she has an account for when that time comes.

I don't want my kids to feel as if they need to earn the things they
want and need. They will have the entire rest of their life to do that,
right now, they are kids and don't have to. There are kids in the world
that have to, and it's good to remind myself of that priveledge that I
can extend to my children.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-When my dad was born, he had 3 older sisters, and his dad worked in a
logging camp. His family lived in camp housing which consisted of a
basic 2 room cabin which had a kitchen/living area, and a bedroom, it
didn't even have a bathroom or running water. It was VERY small. I can
only imagine that there had to be co-sleeping in such a small space. A
hundred years ago, it was more typical to have more children and live in
smaller spaces.-=-



My mom was the fifth of eight kids, and her parents were migrant
cotton pickers. Even when they stayed in one place a while, it
doesn't sound like the houses were ever over three or four rooms.

I slept with my sister or my cousin until I was 14.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bea

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:

> Both my girls
> have bank accounts. We started off with giving cash, when they are/were
> little, then, as they got older we started doing an automatic debit into
> their account, so that saving could happen. Our younger daughter still
> gets cash, but she has an account for when that time comes.
>

That reminded me of what John Holt wrote in _Learning all the time_.
He writes about money and children in the essay "Family Economics"
(p79), in the "at home with numbers" section. He writes: "I feel
quite strongly that any children who have enough money so that a local
bank will give them an account ought to have one. It is real, grown
up, and interesting-- part of the real world out there."

Don't know if that helps...

Bea

Kimberly Cochrane

i started searching for you but it wasn't immediate and I just don't
feel I have the time to redevote to these subjects. Hoever, I want to
share the clues I remember from my own searches.

Co-sleeping through adolescence: I remember, brazil, south america,
families together, USA as the only culture that highly values
children sleeping alone and being independent.

Look up responsible spending. Suze Ormpn and other.

Good luck,
Kim


--- In [email protected], "sorschasmom"
<willowsfortress@...> wrote:
>
> My Mil (who is really cool and we get along beautifully) just came
> for a visit. She almost always (yes, that's a true use of words
> there) has questions or concerns about our lifestyle that we
address
> in a supportive manner. We LIKE that she ask questions and she
LIKES
> that we give her information regarding her concerns. After her
> visits we typically send her weblinks that support our 'answers'.
>
> Here are two concerns she had that we need further information that
> supports our decisions. If anyone can supply website links, etc.
we
> would appreciate it.
>
> Here goes…
>
> She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping.
She
> thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We
have
> only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> about older children and co-sleeping out there?
>
> She is concerned that Tails receives what we call `monthly money'
> (some would call it an allowance) and that we do not have required
> chores in order for her to receive it. Sandra's
> (http://sandradodd.com/chores) is good but it doesn't really
address
> what Mil considers the receipt of `free money'. I also found
> (http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%
> 20behavior/chores/tyingallowancetochores.html).
>
> Thanks for any links that you can provide. I'm sure my Mil will
> appreciate them.
> ~Crystal in Albuquerque~
> http://livingtheliquidlife.blogspot.com/
>

Angela Shaw

<Frankly, some of our best discussions and communication is done in the bed
late at night--all of us in the dark (somewhat) and the kids really connect
with us and with eachother in ways that maybe the light of day inhibits.
These memories, this comfort, I am sure, will be the things we all hold on
tight to throughout our lives. >



It is the same for us. When we are all snuggled in bed we have great
conversations that I would truly miss if my kids didn't sleep in our room
and that just don't seem to happen during our busy days. My girls are 14
and 12 and still sleep in our room nightly. If dh is home, they are on the
floor on air mattresses. If he is on the road (about half the time) they
take turns sharing my bed. The dog joins one or more of us too, which we
all enjoy most of the time, though he's heavy if he lays on your legs or
your head. LOL!

My girls have been talking about moving to their own rooms for some time.
They are conflicted. Lilly (12) wants to re-do her room which I've agreed
to help with this winter and says she'll move out then. She actually did
sleep in her own room for about a year once after we re-did it to a horse
theme. Then she was ill for like 6 months when she was ten and she moved
back with us then and has stayed. For some reason she will occasionally
feel like she should not be sleeping in our room. She puts pressure on
herself to move out and be normal like her friends, but she really doesn't
want to go. I console her by telling her two things. If her friends'
parents would let them sleep in their room, they likely would, at least some
of the time. (one mom told me she does that when her dad is out of town and
dd loves it but her husband is against it when he is home.) Also, I tell
her we are the only mammals who think it is normal for their young to sleep
separately from the parents. I have told the girls that if they do end up
sleeping in their own rooms, we can still continue the tradition of hanging
out snuggling and talking for a while before we all turn in.

I occasionally worry that they'll never sleep in their own rooms but then I
go back to the fact that following my instincts as a mom has served me well
so far and it doesn't feel right to kick them out against their will and to
distress them when sleeping can continue to be an enjoyable thing. (And I
enjoy it too and will miss it) My kids are very secure in themselves most
of the time. They were incredibly shy as young children and I never forced
them to be independent before they were ready and it has served them well.
They are as independent as they need to be. They go to sleep-overs with
friends. They are very responsible and honest. (They also get money monthly
that is not tied to chores and they would never think about being dishonest
with our money.)

My mom has never slept alone unless my dad was on the road which was only
occasionally over the years. As a child she co-slept with siblings until
she moved upstairs to help her grandmother and she then shared a bed with
her grandmother until she married my dad. She's about as independent as
they come. :-)



Angela





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Would *anyone* think it's a great idea for western scientists to
> swoop into a natural tribe and tell them they need to let go of their
> infants and toddlers and make them live their days with other kids
> and adult strangers? -=-
>
> Hundreds of years of Christian missionaries; yes.
>
> When people think souls are more important than anything else, and
> that only European culture is right and good and others are
> "primitive," then thousands of people thought it was a great idea.
>


I guess they missed the part where Eve and Mary (and every mother in
between and for a long time after) had unassisted births, co-slept,
breastfed and wore their babies.

Kim Zerbe

I am enjoying the conversations about cosleeping with older kids! My son is
only 4 and it is comforting to know there are others out there whose older
children are still in the family bed. ;) I've appreciated the cultural
references and studies too.

Our house has an odd 3-level floor plan (like a condo but it's not) with
only the master bedroom on the top level (with large closet and bathroom
suite), then on the main level where the front door is we have the living
room on one side, stairs up the middle and kitchen with dining area on the
other side (plus small bathroom by the front door), then in the daylight
basement, we have 2 more bedrooms, a full bath, and laundry room. One of the
bedrooms is the same size as our living room (big) and has a door to the
back yard so that is my office, soon to be also play room.

So with this layout, the 2nd bedroom is in the basement and I'm not
confortable having my son 2 floors down and I doubt he would be either! So
our room is his room and he thinks nothing odd of that. Some friends have
been confused when they ask him to show them his room and he takes them up
there!

We do have a toddler bed in our room (at one point we tried to get him to
sleep in his own bed, it was even right next to me, but he didn't like it).
We only put him there now when he falls asleep in the car and mommy and
daddy need some adult time in bed. He'll join us during the night.

He has slept with Grandma before, in our house. She used to love it when her
granddaughters would sleep with her when she visited their house and has
always pressured Damon to sleep with her. It was uncomfortable the way she'd
do it though, like begging and coersing him and saying we didn't need him
with us, we needed alone time. I always said to him he can sleep wherever he
wants and of course he is welcome with us. He liked to go with Grandma and
read stories but when it was time to sleep he'd come back to find us.
Finally this spring he did stay the night with her! When we go on vacations
together, she is always pressuring him too, but he sleeps with us. She is
single and I think if she needs a bed buddy that badly, she should go find
her own!

Kim Zerbe
in Oregon


_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Angela Shaw
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re:Need 'supporting' links, etc.



<Frankly, some of our best discussions and communication is done in the bed
late at night--all of us in the dark (somewhat) and the kids really connect
with us and with eachother in ways that maybe the light of day inhibits.
These memories, this comfort, I am sure, will be the things we all hold on
tight to throughout our lives. >

It is the same for us. When we are all snuggled in bed we have great
conversations that I would truly miss if my kids didn't sleep in our room
and that just don't seem to happen during our busy days. My girls are 14
and 12 and still sleep in our room nightly. If dh is home, they are on the
floor on air mattresses. If he is on the road (about half the time) they
take turns sharing my bed. The dog joins one or more of us too, which we
all enjoy most of the time, though he's heavy if he lays on your legs or
your head. LOL!

My girls have been talking about moving to their own rooms for some time.
They are conflicted. Lilly (12) wants to re-do her room which I've agreed
to help with this winter and says she'll move out then. She actually did
sleep in her own room for about a year once after we re-did it to a horse
theme. Then she was ill for like 6 months when she was ten and she moved
back with us then and has stayed. For some reason she will occasionally
feel like she should not be sleeping in our room. She puts pressure on
herself to move out and be normal like her friends, but she really doesn't
want to go. I console her by telling her two things. If her friends'
parents would let them sleep in their room, they likely would, at least some
of the time. (one mom told me she does that when her dad is out of town and
dd loves it but her husband is against it when he is home.) Also, I tell
her we are the only mammals who think it is normal for their young to sleep
separately from the parents. I have told the girls that if they do end up
sleeping in their own rooms, we can still continue the tradition of hanging
out snuggling and talking for a while before we all turn in.

I occasionally worry that they'll never sleep in their own rooms but then I
go back to the fact that following my instincts as a mom has served me well
so far and it doesn't feel right to kick them out against their will and to
distress them when sleeping can continue to be an enjoyable thing. (And I
enjoy it too and will miss it) My kids are very secure in themselves most
of the time. They were incredibly shy as young children and I never forced
them to be independent before they were ready and it has served them well.
They are as independent as they need to be. They go to sleep-overs with
friends. They are very responsible and honest. (They also get money monthly
that is not tied to chores and they would never think about being dishonest
with our money.)

My mom has never slept alone unless my dad was on the road which was only
occasionally over the years. As a child she co-slept with siblings until
she moved upstairs to help her grandmother and she then shared a bed with
her grandmother until she married my dad. She's about as independent as
they come. :-)

Angela

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hollywoodapi

I co-slept with my step-daughter, who is now 22, until she was 14
years old and currently co-sleeping with my 7 and 8 year old sons!
We have two queen beds side by side.

When I started a local chapter of attachment parenting group 7 years
ago, we had a woman from India who told us that it was very customary
in the Indian culture to co-sleep with children well into their
teenage years. Such co-sleeping promotes more open communications
with the children as they go thru teenage transitional stage. That
seemed SO logical to me. I still remember the day when my daughter
did not ask to sleep with us or for us to lay down with her, I was
wondering what is going on with her? What is she hiding from us :)?

Kind regards,
Anna


--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
>
> I am enjoying the conversations about cosleeping with older kids!
My son is
> only 4 and it is comforting to know there are others out there
whose older
> children are still in the family bed. ;) I've appreciated the
cultural
> references and studies too.
>
> Our house has an odd 3-level floor plan (like a condo but it's not)
with
> only the master bedroom on the top level (with large closet and
bathroom
> suite), then on the main level where the front door is we have the
living
> room on one side, stairs up the middle and kitchen with dining area
on the
> other side (plus small bathroom by the front door), then in the
daylight
> basement, we have 2 more bedrooms, a full bath, and laundry room.
One of the
> bedrooms is the same size as our living room (big) and has a door
to the
> back yard so that is my office, soon to be also play room.
>
> So with this layout, the 2nd bedroom is in the basement and I'm not
> confortable having my son 2 floors down and I doubt he would be
either! So
> our room is his room and he thinks nothing odd of that. Some
friends have
> been confused when they ask him to show them his room and he takes
them up
> there!
>
> We do have a toddler bed in our room (at one point we tried to get
him to
> sleep in his own bed, it was even right next to me, but he didn't
like it).
> We only put him there now when he falls asleep in the car and mommy
and
> daddy need some adult time in bed. He'll join us during the night.
>
> He has slept with Grandma before, in our house. She used to love it
when her
> granddaughters would sleep with her when she visited their house
and has
> always pressured Damon to sleep with her. It was uncomfortable the
way she'd
> do it though, like begging and coersing him and saying we didn't
need him
> with us, we needed alone time. I always said to him he can sleep
wherever he
> wants and of course he is welcome with us. He liked to go with
Grandma and
> read stories but when it was time to sleep he'd come back to find
us.
> Finally this spring he did stay the night with her! When we go on
vacations
> together, she is always pressuring him too, but he sleeps with us.
She is
> single and I think if she needs a bed buddy that badly, she should
go find
> her own!
>
> Kim Zerbe
> in Oregon
>
>
> _____
>
> From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of Angela Shaw
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re:Need 'supporting' links, etc.
>
>
>
> <Frankly, some of our best discussions and communication is done in
the bed
> late at night--all of us in the dark (somewhat) and the kids really
connect
> with us and with eachother in ways that maybe the light of day
inhibits.
> These memories, this comfort, I am sure, will be the things we all
hold on
> tight to throughout our lives. >
>
> It is the same for us. When we are all snuggled in bed we have great
> conversations that I would truly miss if my kids didn't sleep in
our room
> and that just don't seem to happen during our busy days. My girls
are 14
> and 12 and still sleep in our room nightly. If dh is home, they are
on the
> floor on air mattresses. If he is on the road (about half the time)
they
> take turns sharing my bed. The dog joins one or more of us too,
which we
> all enjoy most of the time, though he's heavy if he lays on your
legs or
> your head. LOL!
>
> My girls have been talking about moving to their own rooms for some
time.
> They are conflicted. Lilly (12) wants to re-do her room which I've
agreed
> to help with this winter and says she'll move out then. She
actually did
> sleep in her own room for about a year once after we re-did it to a
horse
> theme. Then she was ill for like 6 months when she was ten and she
moved
> back with us then and has stayed. For some reason she will
occasionally
> feel like she should not be sleeping in our room. She puts pressure
on
> herself to move out and be normal like her friends, but she really
doesn't
> want to go. I console her by telling her two things. If her friends'
> parents would let them sleep in their room, they likely would, at
least some
> of the time. (one mom told me she does that when her dad is out of
town and
> dd loves it but her husband is against it when he is home.) Also, I
tell
> her we are the only mammals who think it is normal for their young
to sleep
> separately from the parents. I have told the girls that if they do
end up
> sleeping in their own rooms, we can still continue the tradition of
hanging
> out snuggling and talking for a while before we all turn in.
>
> I occasionally worry that they'll never sleep in their own rooms
but then I
> go back to the fact that following my instincts as a mom has served
me well
> so far and it doesn't feel right to kick them out against their
will and to
> distress them when sleeping can continue to be an enjoyable thing.
(And I
> enjoy it too and will miss it) My kids are very secure in
themselves most
> of the time. They were incredibly shy as young children and I never
forced
> them to be independent before they were ready and it has served
them well.
> They are as independent as they need to be. They go to sleep-overs
with
> friends. They are very responsible and honest. (They also get money
monthly
> that is not tied to chores and they would never think about being
dishonest
> with our money.)
>
> My mom has never slept alone unless my dad was on the road which
was only
> occasionally over the years. As a child she co-slept with siblings
until
> she moved upstairs to help her grandmother and she then shared a
bed with
> her grandmother until she married my dad. She's about as
independent as
> they come. :-)
>
> Angela
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Gwen

I'm 34 and I live with my mommy.  :-)

My parents separated this year.  My husband is going to school to earn a Physician's Assistant degree.  At our income level the choice is rent or school.  Or loans and we are trying not to do that.  So we live with my mom (and before this we lived with my SIL in NM, but her house is in foreclosure...so...rent or school?)

My mom tells me at least once a week how happy she is to have us here.  A five bedroom, two level house would be too much for just her.

And she used to kick me out of bed!  I had really horrific nightmares as a kid and my bedroom was on a different floor than hers (she was a single mom until I was nine).  I vividly remember waking up from a nightmare. laying in the dark, and working up the courage to go through the dark house and up the stairs to my mom's bed only to be told to go back to my bed,  I think that is a major reason why I am so supportive of Megan (7) and Zoe (2) sleeping with us.

Gwen

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

I wouldn't mind if some or all of my kids were living with me when
they were past the tradition "get out" age. Marty's about to
turn 20 and he's here. Kirby would've been here if he hadn't been offered
a job in Texas.

For all the attention that miles-per-gallon and emissions standards
and plastic bags in landfills get, the idea of SO many people living
in apartments alone, or so many little houses for one or two people
doesn't get discussed much.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hollywoodapi

I used to make myself sick, just so I can sleep with my Mom. We had
a rule that I get to sleep with Mom if my fever is even a tiny bit
high! I used to be constantly sick until I was 12!

There was no way on Earth I was going to put my children thru that!

Anna

--- In [email protected], Gwen <willow_selene@...> wrote:
>
> I'm 34 and I live with my mommy.  :-)
>
> My parents separated this year.  My husband is going to school to
earn a Physician's Assistant degree.  At our income level the choice
is rent or school.  Or loans and we are trying not to do that.  So we
live with my mom (and before this we lived with my SIL in NM, but her
house is in foreclosure...so...rent or school?)
>
> My mom tells me at least once a week how happy she is to have us
here.  A five bedroom, two level house would be too much for just her.
>
> And she used to kick me out of bed!  I had really horrific
nightmares as a kid and my bedroom was on a different floor than hers
(she was a single mom until I was nine).  I vividly remember waking
up from a nightmare. laying in the dark, and working up the courage
to go through the dark house and up the stairs to my mom's bed only
to be told to go back to my bed,  I think that is a major reason why
I am so supportive of Megan (7) and Zoe (2) sleeping with us.
>
> Gwen
>
> --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't mind if some or all of my kids were living with me when
> they were past the tradition "get out" age. Marty's about to
> turn 20 and he's here. Kirby would've been here if he hadn't been
offered
> a job in Texas.
>
> For all the attention that miles-per-gallon and emissions
standards
> and plastic bags in landfills get, the idea of SO many people
living
> in apartments alone, or so many little houses for one or two
people
> doesn't get discussed much.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I vividly remember waking up from a nightmare. laying in the dark,
and working up the courage to go through the dark house and up the
stairs to my mom's bed only to be told to go back to my bed, I think
that is a major reason why I am so supportive of Megan (7) and Zoe
(2) sleeping with us.-=-

Once when I had a horrible dream I asked my parents if I could sleep
on the couch in the room next to them, and they said no, go back to bed.

Neither of them was sleeping alone. It wasn't fair.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

I like to watch Korean television shows and I have noticed the adult
children in bed with their parents here and there and it's no big
deal. These are very popular normal shows and it is just something
you see a snippet of here and there.

In Goong the female lead snuggles in bed with her parents before going
off to get married. Goong is the only one I can think of with a mom
and dad and it wasn't overnight. There are a few other shows or
movies that I can't quite place where the female lead is in bed (on
adjacent mats on the floor) with her mom. It always seems portrayed
as snuggly, nice, and sweet... not creepy and weird. These are the
main adult characters that the story is about. It isn't in every
show, but it definitely happens and I always think that it it is very
sweet.

Margaret


On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 7:25 PM, sorschasmom <willowsfortress@...> wrote:
> My Mil (who is really cool and we get along beautifully) just came
> for a visit. She almost always (yes, that's a true use of words
> there) has questions or concerns about our lifestyle that we address
> in a supportive manner. We LIKE that she ask questions and she LIKES
> that we give her information regarding her concerns. After her
> visits we typically send her weblinks that support our 'answers'.
>
> Here are two concerns she had that we need further information that
> supports our decisions. If anyone can supply website links, etc. we
> would appreciate it.
>
> Here goes…
>
> She is concerned with Tails being 11-years-old and co-sleeping. She
> thinks that it is/will inhibit Tails from being independent. We have
> only been able to find 'infant' co-sleep info - is there anything
> about older children and co-sleeping out there?
>
> She is concerned that Tails receives what we call `monthly money'
> (some would call it an allowance) and that we do not have required
> chores in order for her to receive it. Sandra's
> (http://sandradodd.com/chores) is good but it doesn't really address
> what Mil considers the receipt of `free money'. I also found
> (http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%
> 20behavior/chores/tyingallowancetochores.html).
>
> Thanks for any links that you can provide. I'm sure my Mil will
> appreciate them.
> ~Crystal in Albuquerque~
> http://livingtheliquidlife.blogspot.com/
>
>

Melissa Dietrick

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-All that to say that I don't believe that a kid sleeping with his or
> her parent's is going to be still living with them at 30, which is
> probably your MIL's fear.-=-
>
> I wouldn't mind if some or all of my kids were living with me when
> they were past the tradition "get out" age. Marty's about to turn 20
> and he's here. Kirby would've been here if he hadn't been offered a
> job in Texas.
>
> For all the attention that miles-per-gallon and emissions standards
> and plastic bags in landfills get, the idea of SO many people living
> in apartments alone, or so many little houses for one or two people


Sandra thank you for reminding me of this...in italy, there is a
morbid fear of "mammonismo" as it is not so affectionately called here
amd there has been some discussion of this on a list I am on here...

mammonismo: meaning adult children "too" attached to mamma, to the
point they never leave, even if they have wellpaying jobs...and the
general feeling is "poor mamma" that has to keep the adult childs
clothes washed and cleaned, dinner on the table etc etc...

I too, would love to see us living together as long as needed...right
now my two oldest daughters live part of the week with us, part of the
week in town with their "nonna" (grandma)...
Living with teens and older children is just so very interesting!
Im so glad to be friends with my kids.

anyway, now you know how far behind i am!
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7