Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: (Video game and TV time) New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
leana randolph
Growing up I was always taught that TV was bad, video games are for those with no imagination and unless it is extremely bad weather, a child should be outside. To hear someone encourage video game time and TV time, no matter the time and without disruption, is just a little different for me since it was not how I was raised and how society says how our children should be raised.Wait a second........ Sorry but I just had to laugh at what I just wrote HAHA!! I can't believe I just said that "what society says how our children should be raised"! I can't believe I am letting society rule how I want to raise my children. I am letting the way I was raised and the way society says children should be raised, dictate how I am raising my children and it just now dawned on me. These are MY children. I really feel a lightbulb just went off in my head.
Why do I let video games bother me so much? It really makes no sense to me why. He is learning hand eye cordination, he is learning new skills and trying to master levels (trying to succeed in what he is doing), pushing himself to get better and better on every level, he is playing with his brother (age 3) and sister (age 4) and teaching them how to play which in turn is teaching them hand eye coordination (he never liked to play with his brother or sister when he was going to public school, why I don't know), and he is sharing.
I do not understand why I let TV bother me either. He watched various "educational" shows (History Channel, Animal Planet, Travel Channel, Weather,Food Channel and so on). These shows make him interseted in other things so he searches for books on those topics at the library.On top of that, I think he is a visual learner. I think he learns better watching tv then reading a million words a day. Why didn't I see all this before!
Huh! It is like a huge light just popped on in my head. And it is what you all have been saying all along. My children are learning ever minute of everyday. I feel silly now. I am still gonna do a fully deschooling process because my family still needs this, but I feel better knowing that even while deschooling they are still learning no matter what we do. It is almost like even if you wanted to you can not escape learning something in some way, shape, form or fashion. Thanks!
LeAna
________________________________
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:23:37 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
Even in that long post I just wrote, I left out something important.
Respect and honor your child's interest by giving them the space and
time to enjoy and pursue it without unwanted interruptions. Long hours
of uninterrupted play time or viewing time are one of the gifts we can
give our kids.
Some people find that their kids become miserable and cranky or
aggressive when they spend a long time playing video games or watching
television. I think this is often due to not eating enough, but also
could be that those young bodies need more activity. Solve the first
problem by keeping them fed - put plates of easy-to-nibble- at foods
nearby - crackers and cheese and sliced apples or grapes or pieces of
leftover turkey. Get insulated coffee cups with lids and put chicken
or veggie broth in them so they can sip at it and it stays hot. Also,
make sure the game is physically comfortable - watch him play and see
if things need to be moved around. Does he need a better chair? Higher
or lower screen? Lighting changed so it isn't reflecting in the
screen? Better speakers? Also, if playing computer games, is the
computer fast enough for the game? It can be really frustrating to try
to play a game on a computer that isn't really quite adequate.
I'm a little concerned that my long list of examples of how you can
support and expand and build on video game and tv interests could make
some people think that they should constantly barrage their child with
other things to do. Be sensitive and be aware of whether your offering
ideas is welcome and whether it seems be well accepted. You'll build
credibility as your offerings are discovered to be worthwhile.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why do I let video games bother me so much? It really makes no sense to me why. He is learning hand eye cordination, he is learning new skills and trying to master levels (trying to succeed in what he is doing), pushing himself to get better and better on every level, he is playing with his brother (age 3) and sister (age 4) and teaching them how to play which in turn is teaching them hand eye coordination (he never liked to play with his brother or sister when he was going to public school, why I don't know), and he is sharing.
I do not understand why I let TV bother me either. He watched various "educational" shows (History Channel, Animal Planet, Travel Channel, Weather,Food Channel and so on). These shows make him interseted in other things so he searches for books on those topics at the library.On top of that, I think he is a visual learner. I think he learns better watching tv then reading a million words a day. Why didn't I see all this before!
Huh! It is like a huge light just popped on in my head. And it is what you all have been saying all along. My children are learning ever minute of everyday. I feel silly now. I am still gonna do a fully deschooling process because my family still needs this, but I feel better knowing that even while deschooling they are still learning no matter what we do. It is almost like even if you wanted to you can not escape learning something in some way, shape, form or fashion. Thanks!
LeAna
________________________________
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:23:37 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
Even in that long post I just wrote, I left out something important.
Respect and honor your child's interest by giving them the space and
time to enjoy and pursue it without unwanted interruptions. Long hours
of uninterrupted play time or viewing time are one of the gifts we can
give our kids.
Some people find that their kids become miserable and cranky or
aggressive when they spend a long time playing video games or watching
television. I think this is often due to not eating enough, but also
could be that those young bodies need more activity. Solve the first
problem by keeping them fed - put plates of easy-to-nibble- at foods
nearby - crackers and cheese and sliced apples or grapes or pieces of
leftover turkey. Get insulated coffee cups with lids and put chicken
or veggie broth in them so they can sip at it and it stays hot. Also,
make sure the game is physically comfortable - watch him play and see
if things need to be moved around. Does he need a better chair? Higher
or lower screen? Lighting changed so it isn't reflecting in the
screen? Better speakers? Also, if playing computer games, is the
computer fast enough for the game? It can be really frustrating to try
to play a game on a computer that isn't really quite adequate.
I'm a little concerned that my long list of examples of how you can
support and expand and build on video game and tv interests could make
some people think that they should constantly barrage their child with
other things to do. Be sensitive and be aware of whether your offering
ideas is welcome and whether it seems be well accepted. You'll build
credibility as your offerings are discovered to be worthwhile.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
---<<I really feel a lightbulb just went off in my head.>>---
Wow! Good for you! It was funny to read your words as it happened!
I am struggling with the same thing and can't quite put my finger on what is
bothering me. Maybe by typing I will figure it out?!
My son is 4 and loves to play wii. I'm trying to remember how it all
started. My husband got the wii for his birthday almost 2 yrs ago (Jan) from
his mom (who called every store every day until she got one at 7am!) and
previously we were not a gaming family. DH played computer games on his own
(I played some on my own too, but not much). DS was 2.5 at that time and we
didn't think much of exposing him to the wii. He was able to play the
simpler games with us like baseball, tennis, and bowling and we enjoyed time
as a family. He would join us when he wanted to or do something else if he
didn't want to play. When we got Guitar Hero, DH and I would take turns
playing while DS would jam along on his little acoustic guitar, striking
poses and dancing around.
I'm not sure when, but I think DS got more interested in the wii when we got
Cars. He could drive all over town for hours, just checking things out (how
it's designed, very cool actually) and playing various driving games. Mario
Kart was another favorite. At first he would just drive all over, exploring
the track and came in last place every time, but he did not care! It was
really funny to see how much fun he had letting his character drive off a
cliff over and over and over! He would jump and squeal with glee! Back then
he could play for a while and then turn it off.
Ice Age 2 was a turning point. That game required a nunchuk plugged into the
wiimote, so the difficulty factor went up! He was often frustrated by what
he wanted his character to do but couldn't make the moves for and would ask
me to do certain moves for him. There's one timed game that he still asks me
to play, so he can advance faster, but he jumps and cheers me on the whole
time!
I could write about other woes we've had related to the wii, but not sure
how long I want this to get. Here is 1 aside: We got Kung Fu Panda which he
absolutely loved for a while, and would move all over the living room while
playing. He went on a kung fu kick and would do karate moves all day long,
wherever we went. Spinning, chopping, kicking, ending with a still pose,
hand out, concentrating on remaining still and stealthful. He still does
this sometimes, now with the addition of rolling on the floor on his
shoulder and popping up. Anyway, I have a friend I used to get together with
often who has a son 14 mos younger than mine and they seem to be good
friends also (although more and more I'm feeling bad for making them be
together). So we noticed a lot of turmoil when my DS would act out karate
moves on his friend, who would cry and run to mommy. (I believe the problem
was the age/skills gap, not that my son was trying to be mean. We have
another friend who we don't see as often whose son is the same as mine, and
when my son did his moves on that kid, he'd do his own right back!) So my
friend claimed that my son was too violent because he watched excessive
violence on TV and in movies and played Kung Fu Panda which is rated for
kids 10 and up (because of the cartoonish violence?). She is a public school
teacher... 'nuf said?
So fast forward to October of this year. I bought Lego Indiana Jones for the
wii because I thought he would like it. Also the game seemed harder than
other games we had and I thought he'd enjoy working on new skills. We'd
watched Raiders of the Lost Ark and he had totally fell in love with Indy
and the adventure of it. (Indy is the reason he added the shoulder roll.)
Well, he became engrossed with the game! He played it morning noon and
night! It was really hard to get him to go anywhere with me (even to see his
friends), and if we did get out of the house, he would continually talk
about going home so he could play more wii. In 3 weeks he had completed the
entire game, playing some levels multiple times (although I'm sure there are
parts he hasn't done, secrets to find etc. but he did finish the game).
During this time the 4th movie (Crystal Skull) came out on DVD and DH bought
it along with Temple of Doom and Last Crusade (we only had Raiders). So as a
family we watched one Indy movie a night for 4 nights. (I don't know what
unschoolers think about ratings except it's probably more about what's
appropriate for each child, but my son LOVED all 4 movies and is hardly
phased by the violence. At least he is not afraid of it.)
He saw a preview for the Lego Batman game and began asking me to take him to
the store to buy it. Every day... can we go to Game Stop? How about Target?
I was kind of put off because I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! I resisted for a
couple of days, saying games were expensive, then I realized I had cashed
his birthday check from my mom for $100. I told him about HIS money and
asked him if he wanted to spend it on Batman. (As much as a 4 yr old can
understand money, but he was included in the process.) We went to Game Stop
and found a used copy for $45 (and I saved another 10% with my membership
card!). So $40 was spent and he was happy as a clam. Back home he got to
work on Batman. He played for a week as the heros before I asked if he had
unlocked any of the villain levels (which I had read about in the manual).
He said no and was so excited to figure out how to play as a villain! Then
he conquered all of the villain levels.
Then he started asking to go buy Lego Star Wars, which is the one I
initially wanted for ME and DH! I sort of resisted rushing right out the
first moment he asked for it, but 2 days later we were in Target and they
had it for $19.99 so I got it! He thought that's why we were there anyway. I
wondered why it was so cheap, but the salesman said it had come out first,
probably the appeal had worn off with 2 other Lego games on the market. But
it is really neat! You can play as any character (you collect/unlock more as
you play) in Episodes 1-6, so any movie. We have seen all 6 movies with him
too.
I really like playing wii with my son... sometimes.... and I'll pick up a
wiimote and drop into his games and drop out if I need to. When he didn't
want me to play with him, he'd attack my character and kill me multiple
times until I quit. Now he just says, "I don't want you to play" which makes
me sad.
My biggest problem I thought was how he ONLY wants to play wii all day and
all night, but now I think it's my husband. Or at least the family dynamics
that are going on here. I am trying to support DS in his game playing. I
bought him a small lego set with Indian Jones and 2 other characters that he
carries around with him when we go out. We've checked out Star Wars books
from the library, including a cookbook that we have been using. DH has been
pretty supportive as well, although in a more passive way, sometimes I see
him as too hands-off.
I often retreat to my office in the basement late in the evening to catch up
on email, read group posts, or to do actual work for my job, and leave the 2
of them in the living room. DS plays wii and DH either reads a book, sleeps
on the couch, or does something on his laptop. At some point (1-2am?!) I
will go upstairs to find DH either asleep or gone to bed and DS still
playing wii. I usually announce that I am going to bed and ask if he wants
to join me. He usually says no, he wants to keep playing wii, eyes fixed on
the tv and not me. I know he is tired. He looks like a zombie already. I say
he can come up with me and I'll help him brush his teeth, get into his
jammies, and read him stories. If he wanted to stay down here and play, he'd
be all alone because I was tired and going to bed. He usually opts to go
with me, but sometimes he really puts up a fight about playing. This is
where it gets weird for me. I want him to go to bed, but I don't want to
force it. I do say he can play more tomorrow. I try to hold him in my lap
and give him a break from staring at the screen so he might see that he
really is tired. He might sit quietly and decide he is tired, or he might
wiggle away and fight with me. I don't really feel all that comfortable
leaving a 4yr old downstairs playing wii by himself while I go to bed (where
DH is already snoring), but once I actually did it. I went upstairs and
brushed my teeth and went to bed. I read a book for a while then turned out
the light. I couldn't sleep though. DS kept playing, then quit the game and
turned off the wii and the tv and the lights and came to bed (we co-sleep),
probably 3am. He was asleep in under 2 mins. The next morning I woke up
before DS, but I got out of the shower to find him on the couch playing Star
Wars again!
Lately DH has been more stern about the wii playing. He was OK with it for a
while, but is getting uncomfortable with the amount and intensity of DS's
wii obsession. Once he hid all of the wii remotes and I had to appologize to
DS because I didn't know where they were. DH prefers to watch a movie or
Mythbusters while we all eat dinner (which seems to be a reasonable request)
but DS will ignore requests to turn the wii off. DH will say we're making
dinner, you can play until it's ready. Dinner will be ready in 5 minutes,
you might want to quit when you get to the end of a level. Two minutes. Then
dinner goes into the living room and he makes one more try (which I don't
like, but he seems out of options) and says pause the game now or I'm going
to turn it off. DS usually pauses, but has also ignored his dad, at which
point Dad goes to the box and holds down the power button. Then there is
crying and screaming and rolling on the floor. If the wii remote gets banged
down, there is yelling about how that's not how to treat things, or be
careful or you'll break it and not get to play wii anymore! (Last night he
said this and DS said but there's 2 more wiimotes up there.) I chimed in and
said but if you break 1, then all 3 of us won't be able to play Mario Kart
at the same time. The equipment is expensive, please take care of it.
It sounds like others have had this issue with game obsessions, but I got
the impression it was usually with older kids who had gone to school and
were in the process of deschooling. It feels so weird for a 4yr old who has
never gone to school to be this way, and often feels like our family is out
of control. We only have 1 TV and DH is missing his shows a lot! When he
gets his "turn" with the tv, he'll usually watch 3-4 hrs of recorded shows
(DVR) and DS will get antsy and keep asking to play wii again. We're not
getting to play our games anymore. We recently did get Star Wars out of the
wii and all played Mario Kart. DH and I reunited our band (I play bass) on
Guitar Hero Aerosmith and played til our fingers hurt!
It bothers me that DS does not really want to do anything besides play wii.
I usually don't force too much, just give him options. I did force an outing
yesterday. We met up with some other unschoolers at a kid-friendly pizza
place with play structures!!! He knew one of the girls already and we met a
few more. He had a great time playing there, but it was hard to get him
there. Then when we were packing up to go, he said I want to go home and
play wii.
Thanks for letting me pour it all out here! Sorry it got so long!! Help if
you can!!!
Kim Zerbe, Anxious in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wow! Good for you! It was funny to read your words as it happened!
I am struggling with the same thing and can't quite put my finger on what is
bothering me. Maybe by typing I will figure it out?!
My son is 4 and loves to play wii. I'm trying to remember how it all
started. My husband got the wii for his birthday almost 2 yrs ago (Jan) from
his mom (who called every store every day until she got one at 7am!) and
previously we were not a gaming family. DH played computer games on his own
(I played some on my own too, but not much). DS was 2.5 at that time and we
didn't think much of exposing him to the wii. He was able to play the
simpler games with us like baseball, tennis, and bowling and we enjoyed time
as a family. He would join us when he wanted to or do something else if he
didn't want to play. When we got Guitar Hero, DH and I would take turns
playing while DS would jam along on his little acoustic guitar, striking
poses and dancing around.
I'm not sure when, but I think DS got more interested in the wii when we got
Cars. He could drive all over town for hours, just checking things out (how
it's designed, very cool actually) and playing various driving games. Mario
Kart was another favorite. At first he would just drive all over, exploring
the track and came in last place every time, but he did not care! It was
really funny to see how much fun he had letting his character drive off a
cliff over and over and over! He would jump and squeal with glee! Back then
he could play for a while and then turn it off.
Ice Age 2 was a turning point. That game required a nunchuk plugged into the
wiimote, so the difficulty factor went up! He was often frustrated by what
he wanted his character to do but couldn't make the moves for and would ask
me to do certain moves for him. There's one timed game that he still asks me
to play, so he can advance faster, but he jumps and cheers me on the whole
time!
I could write about other woes we've had related to the wii, but not sure
how long I want this to get. Here is 1 aside: We got Kung Fu Panda which he
absolutely loved for a while, and would move all over the living room while
playing. He went on a kung fu kick and would do karate moves all day long,
wherever we went. Spinning, chopping, kicking, ending with a still pose,
hand out, concentrating on remaining still and stealthful. He still does
this sometimes, now with the addition of rolling on the floor on his
shoulder and popping up. Anyway, I have a friend I used to get together with
often who has a son 14 mos younger than mine and they seem to be good
friends also (although more and more I'm feeling bad for making them be
together). So we noticed a lot of turmoil when my DS would act out karate
moves on his friend, who would cry and run to mommy. (I believe the problem
was the age/skills gap, not that my son was trying to be mean. We have
another friend who we don't see as often whose son is the same as mine, and
when my son did his moves on that kid, he'd do his own right back!) So my
friend claimed that my son was too violent because he watched excessive
violence on TV and in movies and played Kung Fu Panda which is rated for
kids 10 and up (because of the cartoonish violence?). She is a public school
teacher... 'nuf said?
So fast forward to October of this year. I bought Lego Indiana Jones for the
wii because I thought he would like it. Also the game seemed harder than
other games we had and I thought he'd enjoy working on new skills. We'd
watched Raiders of the Lost Ark and he had totally fell in love with Indy
and the adventure of it. (Indy is the reason he added the shoulder roll.)
Well, he became engrossed with the game! He played it morning noon and
night! It was really hard to get him to go anywhere with me (even to see his
friends), and if we did get out of the house, he would continually talk
about going home so he could play more wii. In 3 weeks he had completed the
entire game, playing some levels multiple times (although I'm sure there are
parts he hasn't done, secrets to find etc. but he did finish the game).
During this time the 4th movie (Crystal Skull) came out on DVD and DH bought
it along with Temple of Doom and Last Crusade (we only had Raiders). So as a
family we watched one Indy movie a night for 4 nights. (I don't know what
unschoolers think about ratings except it's probably more about what's
appropriate for each child, but my son LOVED all 4 movies and is hardly
phased by the violence. At least he is not afraid of it.)
He saw a preview for the Lego Batman game and began asking me to take him to
the store to buy it. Every day... can we go to Game Stop? How about Target?
I was kind of put off because I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! I resisted for a
couple of days, saying games were expensive, then I realized I had cashed
his birthday check from my mom for $100. I told him about HIS money and
asked him if he wanted to spend it on Batman. (As much as a 4 yr old can
understand money, but he was included in the process.) We went to Game Stop
and found a used copy for $45 (and I saved another 10% with my membership
card!). So $40 was spent and he was happy as a clam. Back home he got to
work on Batman. He played for a week as the heros before I asked if he had
unlocked any of the villain levels (which I had read about in the manual).
He said no and was so excited to figure out how to play as a villain! Then
he conquered all of the villain levels.
Then he started asking to go buy Lego Star Wars, which is the one I
initially wanted for ME and DH! I sort of resisted rushing right out the
first moment he asked for it, but 2 days later we were in Target and they
had it for $19.99 so I got it! He thought that's why we were there anyway. I
wondered why it was so cheap, but the salesman said it had come out first,
probably the appeal had worn off with 2 other Lego games on the market. But
it is really neat! You can play as any character (you collect/unlock more as
you play) in Episodes 1-6, so any movie. We have seen all 6 movies with him
too.
I really like playing wii with my son... sometimes.... and I'll pick up a
wiimote and drop into his games and drop out if I need to. When he didn't
want me to play with him, he'd attack my character and kill me multiple
times until I quit. Now he just says, "I don't want you to play" which makes
me sad.
My biggest problem I thought was how he ONLY wants to play wii all day and
all night, but now I think it's my husband. Or at least the family dynamics
that are going on here. I am trying to support DS in his game playing. I
bought him a small lego set with Indian Jones and 2 other characters that he
carries around with him when we go out. We've checked out Star Wars books
from the library, including a cookbook that we have been using. DH has been
pretty supportive as well, although in a more passive way, sometimes I see
him as too hands-off.
I often retreat to my office in the basement late in the evening to catch up
on email, read group posts, or to do actual work for my job, and leave the 2
of them in the living room. DS plays wii and DH either reads a book, sleeps
on the couch, or does something on his laptop. At some point (1-2am?!) I
will go upstairs to find DH either asleep or gone to bed and DS still
playing wii. I usually announce that I am going to bed and ask if he wants
to join me. He usually says no, he wants to keep playing wii, eyes fixed on
the tv and not me. I know he is tired. He looks like a zombie already. I say
he can come up with me and I'll help him brush his teeth, get into his
jammies, and read him stories. If he wanted to stay down here and play, he'd
be all alone because I was tired and going to bed. He usually opts to go
with me, but sometimes he really puts up a fight about playing. This is
where it gets weird for me. I want him to go to bed, but I don't want to
force it. I do say he can play more tomorrow. I try to hold him in my lap
and give him a break from staring at the screen so he might see that he
really is tired. He might sit quietly and decide he is tired, or he might
wiggle away and fight with me. I don't really feel all that comfortable
leaving a 4yr old downstairs playing wii by himself while I go to bed (where
DH is already snoring), but once I actually did it. I went upstairs and
brushed my teeth and went to bed. I read a book for a while then turned out
the light. I couldn't sleep though. DS kept playing, then quit the game and
turned off the wii and the tv and the lights and came to bed (we co-sleep),
probably 3am. He was asleep in under 2 mins. The next morning I woke up
before DS, but I got out of the shower to find him on the couch playing Star
Wars again!
Lately DH has been more stern about the wii playing. He was OK with it for a
while, but is getting uncomfortable with the amount and intensity of DS's
wii obsession. Once he hid all of the wii remotes and I had to appologize to
DS because I didn't know where they were. DH prefers to watch a movie or
Mythbusters while we all eat dinner (which seems to be a reasonable request)
but DS will ignore requests to turn the wii off. DH will say we're making
dinner, you can play until it's ready. Dinner will be ready in 5 minutes,
you might want to quit when you get to the end of a level. Two minutes. Then
dinner goes into the living room and he makes one more try (which I don't
like, but he seems out of options) and says pause the game now or I'm going
to turn it off. DS usually pauses, but has also ignored his dad, at which
point Dad goes to the box and holds down the power button. Then there is
crying and screaming and rolling on the floor. If the wii remote gets banged
down, there is yelling about how that's not how to treat things, or be
careful or you'll break it and not get to play wii anymore! (Last night he
said this and DS said but there's 2 more wiimotes up there.) I chimed in and
said but if you break 1, then all 3 of us won't be able to play Mario Kart
at the same time. The equipment is expensive, please take care of it.
It sounds like others have had this issue with game obsessions, but I got
the impression it was usually with older kids who had gone to school and
were in the process of deschooling. It feels so weird for a 4yr old who has
never gone to school to be this way, and often feels like our family is out
of control. We only have 1 TV and DH is missing his shows a lot! When he
gets his "turn" with the tv, he'll usually watch 3-4 hrs of recorded shows
(DVR) and DS will get antsy and keep asking to play wii again. We're not
getting to play our games anymore. We recently did get Star Wars out of the
wii and all played Mario Kart. DH and I reunited our band (I play bass) on
Guitar Hero Aerosmith and played til our fingers hurt!
It bothers me that DS does not really want to do anything besides play wii.
I usually don't force too much, just give him options. I did force an outing
yesterday. We met up with some other unschoolers at a kid-friendly pizza
place with play structures!!! He knew one of the girls already and we met a
few more. He had a great time playing there, but it was hard to get him
there. Then when we were packing up to go, he said I want to go home and
play wii.
Thanks for letting me pour it all out here! Sorry it got so long!! Help if
you can!!!
Kim Zerbe, Anxious in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thanks for letting me pour it all out here! Sorry it got so long!!
Help if
you can!!!-=-
Over 2000 words. Very long. Save it. Read it again in six months,
and then a year, and you'll see how far you've come (and how much
older he is).
He won't be four forever.
I have fallen asleep on the couch near where a young child was
playing, at night, with the house locked up. Or I've laid down on a
floor bed near a child who was watching a movie.
You talked about "force" but I think of "persuasion." It seems
somehow that you've told him he can play as long as he wants to and
it's set up a situation where someone loses and you're starting to
think it has to be him or you (it seems). You could tell him the
house needs to be quiet so you and his dad can sleep, and that if he
wants to stay up it needs to be something very, very quiet. Could he
watch a DVD in the bedroom with headphones? They make pillows with
speakers in them so only one person can hear it. Maybe you could
set an alarm so he could get up and play early, and then if he opts
to sleep instead, bonus.
My kids never went to school, and so I don't think it's a school
thing to binge. One of mine was a remote-control-thrower for a
while. But about everything, they asked if they could do something,
and we nearly always said "Yes" with a condition. "Yes, until
dinner," or "Yes, if you can be quiet," or "Yes until 10:00."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Help if
you can!!!-=-
Over 2000 words. Very long. Save it. Read it again in six months,
and then a year, and you'll see how far you've come (and how much
older he is).
He won't be four forever.
I have fallen asleep on the couch near where a young child was
playing, at night, with the house locked up. Or I've laid down on a
floor bed near a child who was watching a movie.
You talked about "force" but I think of "persuasion." It seems
somehow that you've told him he can play as long as he wants to and
it's set up a situation where someone loses and you're starting to
think it has to be him or you (it seems). You could tell him the
house needs to be quiet so you and his dad can sleep, and that if he
wants to stay up it needs to be something very, very quiet. Could he
watch a DVD in the bedroom with headphones? They make pillows with
speakers in them so only one person can hear it. Maybe you could
set an alarm so he could get up and play early, and then if he opts
to sleep instead, bonus.
My kids never went to school, and so I don't think it's a school
thing to binge. One of mine was a remote-control-thrower for a
while. But about everything, they asked if they could do something,
and we nearly always said "Yes" with a condition. "Yes, until
dinner," or "Yes, if you can be quiet," or "Yes until 10:00."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
> My son is 4 and loves to play wii. I'm trying to remember how it allThis was like a gorgeous love story that suddenly turned into a tragedy.
> started.>>>>>
From the outside looking in it looks very clearly like the only reason there
is conflict in your family is because someone is trying to control your son
away from his passion. It is hard to force children away from their passion
in the absence of rules/punishments and in the presence of caring about
their feelings. Whenever we try to control Jayn in similar ways - reducing
her choices - because we are locked into some idea of "enough" that is not
her idea of enough, the negative results are very similar. She will fight
for what she sees as her rights. I doubt that introducing or resorting to
punishing behavior like holding down the button is going to be helpful in
the long run. Sometimes Jayn has an expectation that her dad is going to try
to control her and be pushy even before he starts to talk to her, so she
comes in to a conversation (about changing the tv channel,or sharing a bag
of candy with him for examples) with defenses up. I have found that the best
thing is almost always to accept her no unconditionally, not argue, and that
frees her to choose to be generous and kind after a few minutes. Encouraging
dh to see it that way and act accordingly is not always easy when he is
stuck in a place of "she should...".
I'm reading that maybe the real problem is a conflict over resources. If you
only have one tv set and your son is monopolising it, then I guess your dh
is feeling hard done by. Can you work on that issue? Can you get another set
dedicated to the Wii? I expect that a bunch of used tv's will become
available cheaply very soon with the changeover from analog to digital.
I wish Jayn would let me go to bed while she stays up alone in the living
room! She is too scared to be alone and cries. I can't drag her to the
bedroom before she is ready to sleep because she disrupts dh's sleep with
impatient, rowdy behavior. So in the past I have napped on the sofa. I do
this rarely now because it hurts my back (really saggy in its old age - er
the sofa I mean) but maybe that would work for you. I'm looking forward to
the time when Jayn will have her own room so that she will have a space she
feels safe to be alone in (I hope) and of course it will include her gaming
systems and her own satellite linked tv set. We'll work out which system
will be in the living room in due course.
BTW you can take your old games and dvd's to the Game Stop or EB Games, and
probably other games stores too, and trade them in to get discounts on new
games and gear. Your ds might like a Nintendo DS with the similar games to
take with him to places.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/2/2008 11:36:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
<<<Can you get another set
dedicated to the Wii? I expect that a bunch of used tv's will become
available cheaply very soon with the changeover from analog to digital.>>>
That's what we did when t.v. and video games became a contention point for
the t.v. Dave rigged the second one (flat panel) up right next to the original
one so that while some are watching and some are playing, we can still be
next to each other and share in each others' moments. There was a time shortly
after that when even 2 t.v.s didn't seem to be enough, so we found another
flat panel on sale and set that up on the other side of the original.
Apparently, it wasn't needed, because it isn't used at all, now. The feeling of "lack"
was satisfied and 2 in one room seem to be enough. We also have hand held
games (Gameboys and Nintendo DSs) which are good for travel, but they're also
nice for those rare occasions when the two t.v.s seem to be less than enough
for a moment. They're nice to play solo or in pairs or groups as well, with
the wi fi features on the DSs. In fact, the DSs are our bedtime ritual, now.
Storm and I play together in bed until we get sleepy and then we set one aside
for a "night light" (that I turn off later to save batteries), and shut the
other off and snuggle to sleep.
Peace,
De
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
<<<Can you get another set
dedicated to the Wii? I expect that a bunch of used tv's will become
available cheaply very soon with the changeover from analog to digital.>>>
That's what we did when t.v. and video games became a contention point for
the t.v. Dave rigged the second one (flat panel) up right next to the original
one so that while some are watching and some are playing, we can still be
next to each other and share in each others' moments. There was a time shortly
after that when even 2 t.v.s didn't seem to be enough, so we found another
flat panel on sale and set that up on the other side of the original.
Apparently, it wasn't needed, because it isn't used at all, now. The feeling of "lack"
was satisfied and 2 in one room seem to be enough. We also have hand held
games (Gameboys and Nintendo DSs) which are good for travel, but they're also
nice for those rare occasions when the two t.v.s seem to be less than enough
for a moment. They're nice to play solo or in pairs or groups as well, with
the wi fi features on the DSs. In fact, the DSs are our bedtime ritual, now.
Storm and I play together in bed until we get sleepy and then we set one aside
for a "night light" (that I turn off later to save batteries), and shut the
other off and snuggle to sleep.
Peace,
De
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< But about everything, they asked if they could do something,
that he was awake longer. It's mom's separation anxiety. :)
I read that it wasn't about noise, it was purely the amount time being spent
and the use of the tv at dinner time, that was bothering the dad.
I think there is a difference between a child throwing a remote because of
frustration with the game, which as I remember (perhaps wrongly) is the kind
of throwing that you have shared about before, Sandra, and parent induced
anger and frustration at being thwarted. There has been an interesting study
done with chimpanzees about the difference between "unwilling" and "unable",
that is part of one episode of "The Baby Human". Chimps and children can
see the difference between the two. Chimps get furious very fast by the
"unwilling" to give them the treat, (like taunting) and are sanguinely
acceptant of "unable".
In the absence of punishments how did you insist that 10pm or the other
conditions are complied with when your kids were that young and empathy had
not yet awakened?
That has been my problem since forever, every time this idea, the "if/then"
contracts idea, comes up. Jayn tests the "contract" every single time. All
these contracts have ever done at our place is turn Jayn into a contract
breaker, so I've let go of them and I discourage dh from trying to make them
with her. Because we don't want to live in rules/punishment mode, the only
consequence has been our frustrated disapproval, or future based threats
like when Jayn refuses to leave the party when it has ended, "This behavior
makes me unwilling to bring you back next time" or "People won't want to
spend time with you if this is how you treat them". It feels horrible, even
though it is truth at the time.
Enacting "you can watch tv in the bedroom as long as you are quiet" in an
attempt to sleep myself has been a disaster. It used to be that if she was
rowdy in our one bedroom, and wanted me to stay awake and watch the movie or
play with her no matter how exhausted I was, the only recourse was to return
her to the living room, and punish her (as she sees it) by leaving her there
(with the same movie, a snack and a blanket). She would return to the
bedroom shortly, crying, and I would still have to get up and go turn off
the electronics if we wanted to save the power.
She is now 100 pounds. I can't carry her anywhere anymore so now I don't go
to bed until she is ready or fallen asleep on the sofa herself. I sometimes
nap near her as I have said. I tell her when I am tired, but it is not worth
my own anger over the poking and noisemaking to go to bed with her still
alert, and if I leave her in the living room she cries and howls for me.
Plus it is very important that I protect dh's sleep now that he is working
full time. It is better for me just to accept that I am going to be tired
and stay up with her, until she eventually matures in her own time and
starts consistently caring about other people's feelings and needs. I'm
seeing more glimpses of it.
It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then" contracts have
worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by their own histories,
but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T. Maybe she's just flat
contrary. My choice is not to live in a constant state of battle, as any
attempt to enforce a condition creates.
The idea of a kid staying happily to play in the living room and then coming
to bed quietly when ready after turning off the lights...that sounds like
heaven and I wouldn't try to change that one little bit!
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> and we nearly always said "Yes" with a condition. "Yes, untilI didn't get that the boy was being noisy or keeping dad up at night just
> dinner," or "Yes, if you can be quiet," or "Yes until 10:00.">>>>>
that he was awake longer. It's mom's separation anxiety. :)
I read that it wasn't about noise, it was purely the amount time being spent
and the use of the tv at dinner time, that was bothering the dad.
I think there is a difference between a child throwing a remote because of
frustration with the game, which as I remember (perhaps wrongly) is the kind
of throwing that you have shared about before, Sandra, and parent induced
anger and frustration at being thwarted. There has been an interesting study
done with chimpanzees about the difference between "unwilling" and "unable",
that is part of one episode of "The Baby Human". Chimps and children can
see the difference between the two. Chimps get furious very fast by the
"unwilling" to give them the treat, (like taunting) and are sanguinely
acceptant of "unable".
In the absence of punishments how did you insist that 10pm or the other
conditions are complied with when your kids were that young and empathy had
not yet awakened?
That has been my problem since forever, every time this idea, the "if/then"
contracts idea, comes up. Jayn tests the "contract" every single time. All
these contracts have ever done at our place is turn Jayn into a contract
breaker, so I've let go of them and I discourage dh from trying to make them
with her. Because we don't want to live in rules/punishment mode, the only
consequence has been our frustrated disapproval, or future based threats
like when Jayn refuses to leave the party when it has ended, "This behavior
makes me unwilling to bring you back next time" or "People won't want to
spend time with you if this is how you treat them". It feels horrible, even
though it is truth at the time.
Enacting "you can watch tv in the bedroom as long as you are quiet" in an
attempt to sleep myself has been a disaster. It used to be that if she was
rowdy in our one bedroom, and wanted me to stay awake and watch the movie or
play with her no matter how exhausted I was, the only recourse was to return
her to the living room, and punish her (as she sees it) by leaving her there
(with the same movie, a snack and a blanket). She would return to the
bedroom shortly, crying, and I would still have to get up and go turn off
the electronics if we wanted to save the power.
She is now 100 pounds. I can't carry her anywhere anymore so now I don't go
to bed until she is ready or fallen asleep on the sofa herself. I sometimes
nap near her as I have said. I tell her when I am tired, but it is not worth
my own anger over the poking and noisemaking to go to bed with her still
alert, and if I leave her in the living room she cries and howls for me.
Plus it is very important that I protect dh's sleep now that he is working
full time. It is better for me just to accept that I am going to be tired
and stay up with her, until she eventually matures in her own time and
starts consistently caring about other people's feelings and needs. I'm
seeing more glimpses of it.
It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then" contracts have
worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by their own histories,
but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T. Maybe she's just flat
contrary. My choice is not to live in a constant state of battle, as any
attempt to enforce a condition creates.
The idea of a kid staying happily to play in the living room and then coming
to bed quietly when ready after turning off the lights...that sounds like
heaven and I wouldn't try to change that one little bit!
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Jenny C
>have
> It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then" contracts
> worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by their ownhistories,
> but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T. Maybe she's just flatany
> contrary. My choice is not to live in a constant state of battle, as
> attempt to enforce a condition creates.Chamille would have accepted an if/then condition totally without
>
question. Margaux very rarely will accept that and any attempt at
trying is generally met with anger or tears.
Margaux is getting better at doing things when asked though, so it's
possible kids like that just need more time. Saying "yes" a lot helps,
making things happy and light and fun helps. Every little bit helps,
but direct coersion or control is met with a brick wall. (like; "them's
fighten words")
I totally chalk it up to personality. Some kids really are born very
very intense and some aren't. If you have an intense kid, you KNOW it!
I would never understand it if I didn't have one myself, and one that
totally isn't that way to contrast it with.
I told my husband a long time ago that it would be easy to squash that
intense spirit and that instead we should encourage it. That intense
spirit can become very useful and powerful, just more difficult to live
with sometimes!
Lyla Wolfenstein
It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then" contracts have
worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by their own histories,
but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T. Maybe she's just flat
contrary. My choice is not to live in a constant state of battle, as any
attempt to enforce a condition creates.>>>
i just wanted to say that that has been my experience too - with my son, however not as much with my daughter. so i really do believe that there are individual temperaments at work here too. soem kids (people) just have a stronger sense of what gordon neufeld calls "counterwill" - i have found that my son has both a strong sense of counterwill AND an extraordinary sensitivity to how others are feeling/impacted by his actions, and these two combine to produce feelings of intense conflict and guilt and thus anger, when someone else's needs are in direct conflict with his. so he used to agree to "contracts" but then be tortured by the conflicting needs once the terms came "due" and it was just a set up for disappointment and disaster and stress, as you describe in your home.
i can't remember how old jayn is, but what i have found is that as he ages (and deschools - which is probably not an issue in your home?), he has naturally found ways to be both more considerate of other people's needs nd in tune with his own at the same time. but certainly not all the time and certainly not compared to many kids his age - unschooled or not. i too have found that surrender to our reality, compassion for the intensity of his needs, and gentle, gradual encouragement to move toward a more collaborative model, one "issue" at a time, has worked really well, and in fact, is the only thing that "works."
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by their own histories,
but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T. Maybe she's just flat
contrary. My choice is not to live in a constant state of battle, as any
attempt to enforce a condition creates.>>>
i just wanted to say that that has been my experience too - with my son, however not as much with my daughter. so i really do believe that there are individual temperaments at work here too. soem kids (people) just have a stronger sense of what gordon neufeld calls "counterwill" - i have found that my son has both a strong sense of counterwill AND an extraordinary sensitivity to how others are feeling/impacted by his actions, and these two combine to produce feelings of intense conflict and guilt and thus anger, when someone else's needs are in direct conflict with his. so he used to agree to "contracts" but then be tortured by the conflicting needs once the terms came "due" and it was just a set up for disappointment and disaster and stress, as you describe in your home.
i can't remember how old jayn is, but what i have found is that as he ages (and deschools - which is probably not an issue in your home?), he has naturally found ways to be both more considerate of other people's needs nd in tune with his own at the same time. but certainly not all the time and certainly not compared to many kids his age - unschooled or not. i too have found that surrender to our reality, compassion for the intensity of his needs, and gentle, gradual encouragement to move toward a more collaborative model, one "issue" at a time, has worked really well, and in fact, is the only thing that "works."
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
<<<< But about everything, they asked if they could do something,
that he was awake longer. It's mom's separation anxiety. :)
I read that it wasn't about noise, it was purely the amount time being spent
and the use of the tv at dinner time, that was bothering the dad. >>>>>>>>
===================================================
Oh yes, it is ME having anxiety! Until recently breastfeeding was part of
his night time routine, a good way to calm him down after being so active.
It seems he has given that up to playing wii! Where has my baby gone?! (He
could be my only child.) I am worried about leaving him awake downstairs all
alone. It doesn't seem like 4 is old enough to allow that kind of behavior
(is this my mainstream brain talking?) and is it safe? Is it cruel or kind?
We are all night owls here, but sometimes he can outlast us old parents! Dad
does have to work in the mornings. Weekends we are all up late together.
I think the biggest anxiety factor is when Damon (the DS) plays wii all day
and into the night, going to bed at 4:30am and sleeping until 1:30pm or so,
which happened the other day! We checked the console stats and he played for
13 hours. We are on a totally different schedule from most people! I was OK
with it being off, I love sleeping in too, but as it slides further away
from the norm, it just feels even weirder. It is hard to make plans unless
others are available in the afternoons or evenings. Will we ever get back on
a semi-normal sleep pattern? We can't even meet Daddy for lunch (our usual
fun bonding ritual) because when he calls at 1pm to make plans, Damon
probably just woke up and we're not ready to go anywhere.
I hear you Robyn and Jenny about having strong willed children!!!
<<<<<<<<<<From the outside looking in it looks very clearly like thet
only reason there is conflict in your family is because someone is trying to
control your son away from his passion. It is hard to force children away
from their passion in the absence of rules/punishments and in the presence
of caring about their feelings. Whenever we try to control Jayn in similar
ways - reducing her choices - because we are locked into some idea of
"enough" that is not her idea of enough, the negative results are very
similar. She will fight for what she sees as her rights. >>>>>>
======================================================
I know, I feel it too, and I can't figure out how to come to terms with it.
In writing, I discovered that a lot of the frustration on the part of my
husband is because he has to fight with his son for tv time, something he
holds dear and uses as a way to unwind after a long day at work. We used to
play games together, before Damon got his passion ignited. I like the word
passion better than obsession. I couldn't think of a better way to put it, I
didn't want obsession to seem negative. Passion is better.
I suppose we should talk about a 2nd TV. We are supposed to be remodeling my
large (read: wasted space) office into more of an office/play room and have
plans to put a tv there. So then does the wii go there or is that where
someone goes to watch their shows? We like playing on the big screen!
DH is not fully on board with unschooling, just so you know. He thinks we
are lazy parents and I've latched onto this term to describe, make sense of,
and sort of validate my lazy lifestyle. I don't see it that way, but it's
hard to have a comeback when he thinks we did nothing all day. He recently
said our son would be better off in school. He says he has so much potential
and he is wasting it; he can't read, he can't write, he won't let me cut his
hair or go get it cut so it's all shaggy in his eyes, he doesn't use the
potty (what he actually said was the kid sits around in his own feces, which
is true but if I go near him to clean him up, with NO meanness whatsoever,
he hits and kicks and throws things at me, even calls me names while I try
to get him to just lay down then he stops so we don't get the carpet messed
up and steps nicely into a fresh pull-up), and he wastes his days playing
wii. I said with a laugh, well I'd like to have his life!
This did not help and the arguement only got worse. He is concerned that
Damon will not be prepared for the real world, like we are living in a
bubble or fantasy world. I tried to explain that he has incredible dexterity
and strategy planning skills. He has mastered games rated for 10 year olds!
In 3 weeks!He knows enough math to know if he can buy a new character or not
(or just clicks the button to see if it lets him). He knows who won when we
play against each other. He can read enough to know which menu to choose and
how to change options and settings as he sees fit. But because Daddy said
(in front of him) that he can't read, he isn't reading anymore. He has
memorized books (since he was 2) and when I ask him to read me those
stories, he says he can't read. I say he can read some, or he knows the
words of how the story goes and that is the beginning of reading.
Does this sound harsh? Is this familiar to anyone, having a spouse doubt
what you are doing when they are at work? He says this is his life we are
messing with and I say that's something I think about every day, and I will
not let him be squashed down by the public school system or have his spirit
crushed by anyone. I don't really want to think about divorce! Can we get to
a better talking place? What can be done when 2 parents have different ideas
of what is "right" for their mutual kid?!
~Kim in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> and we nearly always said "Yes" with a condition. "Yes, untilI didn't get that the boy was being noisy or keeping dad up at night just
> dinner," or "Yes, if you can be quiet," or "Yes until 10:00.">>>>>
that he was awake longer. It's mom's separation anxiety. :)
I read that it wasn't about noise, it was purely the amount time being spent
and the use of the tv at dinner time, that was bothering the dad. >>>>>>>>
===================================================
Oh yes, it is ME having anxiety! Until recently breastfeeding was part of
his night time routine, a good way to calm him down after being so active.
It seems he has given that up to playing wii! Where has my baby gone?! (He
could be my only child.) I am worried about leaving him awake downstairs all
alone. It doesn't seem like 4 is old enough to allow that kind of behavior
(is this my mainstream brain talking?) and is it safe? Is it cruel or kind?
We are all night owls here, but sometimes he can outlast us old parents! Dad
does have to work in the mornings. Weekends we are all up late together.
I think the biggest anxiety factor is when Damon (the DS) plays wii all day
and into the night, going to bed at 4:30am and sleeping until 1:30pm or so,
which happened the other day! We checked the console stats and he played for
13 hours. We are on a totally different schedule from most people! I was OK
with it being off, I love sleeping in too, but as it slides further away
from the norm, it just feels even weirder. It is hard to make plans unless
others are available in the afternoons or evenings. Will we ever get back on
a semi-normal sleep pattern? We can't even meet Daddy for lunch (our usual
fun bonding ritual) because when he calls at 1pm to make plans, Damon
probably just woke up and we're not ready to go anywhere.
I hear you Robyn and Jenny about having strong willed children!!!
<<<<<<<<<<From the outside looking in it looks very clearly like thet
only reason there is conflict in your family is because someone is trying to
control your son away from his passion. It is hard to force children away
from their passion in the absence of rules/punishments and in the presence
of caring about their feelings. Whenever we try to control Jayn in similar
ways - reducing her choices - because we are locked into some idea of
"enough" that is not her idea of enough, the negative results are very
similar. She will fight for what she sees as her rights. >>>>>>
======================================================
I know, I feel it too, and I can't figure out how to come to terms with it.
In writing, I discovered that a lot of the frustration on the part of my
husband is because he has to fight with his son for tv time, something he
holds dear and uses as a way to unwind after a long day at work. We used to
play games together, before Damon got his passion ignited. I like the word
passion better than obsession. I couldn't think of a better way to put it, I
didn't want obsession to seem negative. Passion is better.
I suppose we should talk about a 2nd TV. We are supposed to be remodeling my
large (read: wasted space) office into more of an office/play room and have
plans to put a tv there. So then does the wii go there or is that where
someone goes to watch their shows? We like playing on the big screen!
DH is not fully on board with unschooling, just so you know. He thinks we
are lazy parents and I've latched onto this term to describe, make sense of,
and sort of validate my lazy lifestyle. I don't see it that way, but it's
hard to have a comeback when he thinks we did nothing all day. He recently
said our son would be better off in school. He says he has so much potential
and he is wasting it; he can't read, he can't write, he won't let me cut his
hair or go get it cut so it's all shaggy in his eyes, he doesn't use the
potty (what he actually said was the kid sits around in his own feces, which
is true but if I go near him to clean him up, with NO meanness whatsoever,
he hits and kicks and throws things at me, even calls me names while I try
to get him to just lay down then he stops so we don't get the carpet messed
up and steps nicely into a fresh pull-up), and he wastes his days playing
wii. I said with a laugh, well I'd like to have his life!
This did not help and the arguement only got worse. He is concerned that
Damon will not be prepared for the real world, like we are living in a
bubble or fantasy world. I tried to explain that he has incredible dexterity
and strategy planning skills. He has mastered games rated for 10 year olds!
In 3 weeks!He knows enough math to know if he can buy a new character or not
(or just clicks the button to see if it lets him). He knows who won when we
play against each other. He can read enough to know which menu to choose and
how to change options and settings as he sees fit. But because Daddy said
(in front of him) that he can't read, he isn't reading anymore. He has
memorized books (since he was 2) and when I ask him to read me those
stories, he says he can't read. I say he can read some, or he knows the
words of how the story goes and that is the beginning of reading.
Does this sound harsh? Is this familiar to anyone, having a spouse doubt
what you are doing when they are at work? He says this is his life we are
messing with and I say that's something I think about every day, and I will
not let him be squashed down by the public school system or have his spirit
crushed by anyone. I don't really want to think about divorce! Can we get to
a better talking place? What can be done when 2 parents have different ideas
of what is "right" for their mutual kid?!
~Kim in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> I totally chalk it up to personality. Some kids really are born very
more intense than she was as an infant and toddler - at least that is my
perception of her. I would never have considered her intense at all when she
was 2 and 3 years old, especially compared to the stories others told.
What is also interesting is the most recent issue of Skeptic magazine.
http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/index.html In it is an interview of two
scientists working on twin studies and looking at the old "nature vs
nurture" issue. One was asked what was the most surprising thing that he had
learnt. I'm going to quote directly from my copy here.
Tom Bouchard:
"My really big surprise was that when we started studying twins reared apart
I clearly expected there would be some traits that were entirely
environmental and some others that were heavily influenced by
genetics....Well our first glance at the data...showed that this was clearly
wrong. When more data came in from other studies, including data from twins
who had not been separated, the answer became even more obvious - genetic
factors are important for almost every behavioral trait and become even more
so over time.
One of the problems was that when we first analyzed the data we didn't
differentiate the twins by age. We were pooling observations from
adolescents, teenager and even adults. Well, we now know that there are
sizable environmental influences early in life, while genetic factors become
increasingly powerful over time. This is exactly the opposite of
conventional wisdom...We all assumed that environmental effects would
accumulate. So when you look at an adult, you'd expect a larger influence
for environment and a lessened effect for genetics. It turned out to be
exactly the opposite."
They were looking at monozygotic twins reared apart and at families with
unrelated children close in age adopted into the family:
"Monozygotic twins reared apart provide a good estimate of the influence of
common heredity; unrelated children adopted into the same home gauge the
influence of the common family environment."
(I am taking the word "common" here to mean "shared" rather than
"ordinary".)
I think this has clear implications for parenting, especially the importance
of Attachment Parenting in infancy.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> very intense and some aren't. If you have an intense kid, you KNOW it!This is interesting to me because as time has gone on Jayn has become way
> I would never understand it if I didn't have one myself, and one that
> totally isn't that way to contrast it with. >>>
more intense than she was as an infant and toddler - at least that is my
perception of her. I would never have considered her intense at all when she
was 2 and 3 years old, especially compared to the stories others told.
What is also interesting is the most recent issue of Skeptic magazine.
http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/index.html In it is an interview of two
scientists working on twin studies and looking at the old "nature vs
nurture" issue. One was asked what was the most surprising thing that he had
learnt. I'm going to quote directly from my copy here.
Tom Bouchard:
"My really big surprise was that when we started studying twins reared apart
I clearly expected there would be some traits that were entirely
environmental and some others that were heavily influenced by
genetics....Well our first glance at the data...showed that this was clearly
wrong. When more data came in from other studies, including data from twins
who had not been separated, the answer became even more obvious - genetic
factors are important for almost every behavioral trait and become even more
so over time.
One of the problems was that when we first analyzed the data we didn't
differentiate the twins by age. We were pooling observations from
adolescents, teenager and even adults. Well, we now know that there are
sizable environmental influences early in life, while genetic factors become
increasingly powerful over time. This is exactly the opposite of
conventional wisdom...We all assumed that environmental effects would
accumulate. So when you look at an adult, you'd expect a larger influence
for environment and a lessened effect for genetics. It turned out to be
exactly the opposite."
They were looking at monozygotic twins reared apart and at families with
unrelated children close in age adopted into the family:
"Monozygotic twins reared apart provide a good estimate of the influence of
common heredity; unrelated children adopted into the same home gauge the
influence of the common family environment."
(I am taking the word "common" here to mean "shared" rather than
"ordinary".)
I think this has clear implications for parenting, especially the importance
of Attachment Parenting in infancy.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
Kim, you won't have any hope of unschooling or even home schooling if you
get a divorce! I would suggest that you put that word and idea in the
"unthinkable" basket.
Have you heard of Beth Fuller's "Peaceful Partnerships" list? The purpose is
to help us extend the loving partnerships and unschooling principles we so
easily give our children to our partnership relationships. Here's a link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Here are some links to the unschooling dads' groups:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
Many dads get a lot of reassurance from attending one of the unschooling
conferences.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
get a divorce! I would suggest that you put that word and idea in the
"unthinkable" basket.
Have you heard of Beth Fuller's "Peaceful Partnerships" list? The purpose is
to help us extend the loving partnerships and unschooling principles we so
easily give our children to our partnership relationships. Here's a link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peacefulpartnerships/
Here are some links to the unschooling dads' groups:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
Many dads get a lot of reassurance from attending one of the unschooling
conferences.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
Counterwill - I'll have to read about that, it sounds interesting.
<<<< so he used to agree to "contracts" but then be tortured by the
conflicting needs once the terms came "due" and it was just a set up for
disappointment and disaster and stress, as you describe in your home.>>>>
I hadn't really considered that maybe Jayn is extra sensitive (as against
lacking in empathy) and that is where the overwhelm comes from. I do see
that she has a number of avoidance/distraction behaviors when she is called
on her own unpleasant or uncool actions by her father or me, no matter how
gently. I still rely on somber silence a lot rather than verbally pointing
out the obvious, which gives her the chance to stop, reflect and choose to
change in her own time.
<<<<> i can't remember how old jayn is, but what i have found is that as he
ages (and deschools - which is probably not an issue in your home?) >>>>
Jayn is 9 and always unschooled.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
<<<< so he used to agree to "contracts" but then be tortured by the
conflicting needs once the terms came "due" and it was just a set up for
disappointment and disaster and stress, as you describe in your home.>>>>
I hadn't really considered that maybe Jayn is extra sensitive (as against
lacking in empathy) and that is where the overwhelm comes from. I do see
that she has a number of avoidance/distraction behaviors when she is called
on her own unpleasant or uncool actions by her father or me, no matter how
gently. I still rely on somber silence a lot rather than verbally pointing
out the obvious, which gives her the chance to stop, reflect and choose to
change in her own time.
<<<<> i can't remember how old jayn is, but what i have found is that as he
ages (and deschools - which is probably not an issue in your home?) >>>>
Jayn is 9 and always unschooled.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Gwen
--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Kim Zerbe <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
In 3 weeks he had completed the entire game, playing some levels
multiple times (although I'm sure there are parts he hasn't done,
secrets to find etc. but he did finish the game).
------------
Megan's "cool new thing" interest takes about two or three weeks
to fade. Maybe your son's is three weeks? Or until he finishes
the game? Until Megan started finishing entire games I didn't
know it was possible! I guess I thought the games went on
forever. It was something I'd never really thought about. But
she is so proud to complete entire games and whenever
she starts a new game that is her goal. The only game she
really wants to finish, but has not been able to is Ratatouille.
-----------------------
He saw a preview for the Lego Batman game and began asking me to
take him to the store to buy it. Every day... can we go to Game
Stop? How about Target? I was kind of put off because I'd just
spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd bought it used for $40) on a game
he only played for 3 weeks!
--------------------------
We use gamefly.com It is like Netflix, but for video games.
Right now we have one game out at a time and it costs about
$15/month. It gives Megan lots of variety for a good price.
There have been times when we had more games out a time
(one for DH or myself and one for Megan. Or one for all of us
to play and one that just one of us is interested in)
I often retreat to my office in the basement late in the evening
to catch up on email, read group posts, or to do actual work
for my job, and leave the 2 of them in the living room. DS plays
wii and DH either reads a book, sleeps on the couch, or does
something on his laptop. At some point (1-2am?!) I will go
upstairs to find DH either asleep or gone to bed and DS still
playing wii.
-------------------------
Are you uncomfortable with your DH doing other things
while DS plays wii? Maybe there's a wii game they could play
together? Or is DH really needs to decompress maybe he could
hang out in your office space and read? There are lots of tv
shows available online now. Maybe you could find links (if
available) for your husband's favorite shows? And then you
could hang out with DS and use the laptop if you need to?
It feels so weird for a 4yr old who has never gone to school
to be this way, and often feels like our family is out
of control. We only have 1 TV and DH is missing his shows a lot!
--------------------------
Could you check freecycle or Craig's List for a second tv?
Or maybe there is a way to transfer content from a dvr to a
computer? How much pressure do you think would be removed if
you obtained a 2nd tv?
It bothers me that DS does not really want to do anything
besides play wii. I did force an outing yesterday. Then when
we were packing up to go, he said I want to go home and play wii.
-------------------
When Megan is going through a growth spurt she becomes a complete
homebody. Can you plan on staying home for a week and just let
him play? Without checking how long he's been going? Can you
provide food and company and relax about the rest?
Gwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Can you work on that issue? Can you get another set
dedicated to the Wii? I expect that a bunch of used tv's will become
available cheaply very soon with the changeover from analog to
digital.-=-
Good point. The gaming TV wouldn't need a digital converter to play
DVDS and computer games. You could also put it in a part of the
house that's far from the bedroom. Don't put it in a cold garage or
a scary or uncomfortable place, though. That's the way some families
penalize game playing, by making it very uncomfortable. Think of
reading on that one too. What if your parents or spouse or landlord
said "Okay, you can read all you want, but only outside on the porch,
by porchlight or flashlight"?
-=-I wish Jayn would let me go to bed while she stays up alone in the
living room! She is too scared to be alone and cries. I can't drag
her to the bedroom before she is ready to sleep because she disrupts
dh's sleep with impatient, rowdy behavior.-=-
My kids weren't that way, but we also had a larger living space, even
when they were little, than I think Robyn has. And having more than
one child can sometimes make it easier. If three people are asleep
it's more alluring and persuasive than if one person is asleep, it
seems here sometimes. And Holly was five when we moved to a bigger
house in which the kids had their own rooms. They still could sleep
with us or each other, and they did sometimes, and I slept with Holly
a lot, so there were options and that added flexibility.
We always had a "quiet after 10:00" deal, because Keith works early
and I didn't want neighbors calling the county on me for not having
my kids in the house and quiet. And we've had a "quiet until noon"
deal (or until everyone's awake) so the kids could get enough sleep,
even if they stayed up late.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dedicated to the Wii? I expect that a bunch of used tv's will become
available cheaply very soon with the changeover from analog to
digital.-=-
Good point. The gaming TV wouldn't need a digital converter to play
DVDS and computer games. You could also put it in a part of the
house that's far from the bedroom. Don't put it in a cold garage or
a scary or uncomfortable place, though. That's the way some families
penalize game playing, by making it very uncomfortable. Think of
reading on that one too. What if your parents or spouse or landlord
said "Okay, you can read all you want, but only outside on the porch,
by porchlight or flashlight"?
-=-I wish Jayn would let me go to bed while she stays up alone in the
living room! She is too scared to be alone and cries. I can't drag
her to the bedroom before she is ready to sleep because she disrupts
dh's sleep with impatient, rowdy behavior.-=-
My kids weren't that way, but we also had a larger living space, even
when they were little, than I think Robyn has. And having more than
one child can sometimes make it easier. If three people are asleep
it's more alluring and persuasive than if one person is asleep, it
seems here sometimes. And Holly was five when we moved to a bigger
house in which the kids had their own rooms. They still could sleep
with us or each other, and they did sometimes, and I slept with Holly
a lot, so there were options and that added flexibility.
We always had a "quiet after 10:00" deal, because Keith works early
and I didn't want neighbors calling the county on me for not having
my kids in the house and quiet. And we've had a "quiet until noon"
deal (or until everyone's awake) so the kids could get enough sleep,
even if they stayed up late.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think there is a difference between a child throwing a remote
because of
frustration with the game, which as I remember (perhaps wrongly) is
the kind
of throwing that you have shared about before, Sandra, and parent
induced
anger and frustration at being thwarted. There has been an
interesting study
done with chimpanzees about the difference between "unwilling" and
"unable",
that is part of one episode of "The Baby Human". Chimps and children can
see the difference between the two. Chimps get furious very fast by the
"unwilling" to give them the treat, (like taunting) and are sanguinely
acceptant of "unable".-=-
You're right. I hadn't really thought of that difference. I was
thinking of the cost of remote control replacement and finding ways
for the child to deal peacefully, and sometimes that comes with age.
-=-In the absence of punishments how did you insist that 10pm or the
other conditions are complied with when your kids were that young and
empathy had not yet awakened?-=-
From the time they were nursing babies, they would lie down with us
when we went to sleep, or down next to me if I was up writing or
watching a movie. If we were out and they fell asleep on the way
home, we'd put them in bed. Bed was always a nice and good thing,
not a "get in and stay in" thing. Sleep didn't have directly to do
with bed.
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I collected some stuff there (and I know Robyn and some others have
seen it, and I'm sure some of the newer list members didn't know it
existed, so there it is).
If I was too sleepy to stay awake and Kirby wanted to stay up (when
he was very little) I would set up a soft, quiet situation for him,
with a place to fall asleep in the living room (a futon and pillows
and blankets, all set up in a nice way) and some non-messy and non-
noisy snacks in a bowl, and a sippy cup or a bottle of juice (because
it's still good when it's warm, unlike milk), and remind him to be
really quiet.
When they were older and it wasn't just one kid up, sometimes they
would get in an argument or just get to talking too loudly and I'd
come and say if they couldn't be quiet they needed to go to bed.
Because we had a good relationship and they liked being able to stay
up, they would be quiet or go to bed.
-=-"This behavior makes me unwilling to bring you back next time" or
"People won't want to spend time with you if this is how you treat
them". It feels horrible, even though it is truth at the time.-=-
I don't know what the difference is. Partly, I'm not afraid to tell
my kids what I think is true about the effects of their behavior. I
don't know if it's just personality differences or they've seen me be
right or what. Did Jayn's ideas about her rights and the idea that
she can refuse to leave a party when it's ended come from messages
based on unschooling discussions? Because if so, I think it set up a
bad contract (without people having thought of it that way) way
early--that she "had rights" to do what she wanted. In our family
it was always privilege and gift, so instead of one big "do whatever
forever" that we had to be frustrated about it was "Can I do this?"
Yes! "Can I do it longer?" Not this time, sorry. "Can I do it
next time?" We can come back tomorrow, even.
We went out of our way to find them cool opportunities and they were
often (not always) aware that they had more fun lives than some other
kids, and so they cooperated with us to maintain that mood and momentum.
-=-Enacting "you can watch tv in the bedroom as long as you are
quiet" in an attempt to sleep myself has been a disaster.-=-
It's not something you can enact, when it's her behavior. I would've
said "It's just not okay. I have a physical need to sleep, your dad
has to go to work, NOBODY would think it's okay--not the neighbors,
not child welfare, not the police, not a judge. You can lie down
next to me and be quiet, or you can listen to music with headphones,
or you can watch a movie quietly, but those are your choices right
now."
-=-It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then"
contracts have worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by
their own histories, but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T.
Maybe she's just flat contrary.-=-
Maybe she's genetically resistent. Maybe there are personality
traits that are clashing with yours? But I'm suspecting that
somewhere back there she was told she has rights that she doesn't
naturally or legally have. Maybe a bigger living space or a detached
house would be important to move toward if you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because of
frustration with the game, which as I remember (perhaps wrongly) is
the kind
of throwing that you have shared about before, Sandra, and parent
induced
anger and frustration at being thwarted. There has been an
interesting study
done with chimpanzees about the difference between "unwilling" and
"unable",
that is part of one episode of "The Baby Human". Chimps and children can
see the difference between the two. Chimps get furious very fast by the
"unwilling" to give them the treat, (like taunting) and are sanguinely
acceptant of "unable".-=-
You're right. I hadn't really thought of that difference. I was
thinking of the cost of remote control replacement and finding ways
for the child to deal peacefully, and sometimes that comes with age.
-=-In the absence of punishments how did you insist that 10pm or the
other conditions are complied with when your kids were that young and
empathy had not yet awakened?-=-
From the time they were nursing babies, they would lie down with us
when we went to sleep, or down next to me if I was up writing or
watching a movie. If we were out and they fell asleep on the way
home, we'd put them in bed. Bed was always a nice and good thing,
not a "get in and stay in" thing. Sleep didn't have directly to do
with bed.
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I collected some stuff there (and I know Robyn and some others have
seen it, and I'm sure some of the newer list members didn't know it
existed, so there it is).
If I was too sleepy to stay awake and Kirby wanted to stay up (when
he was very little) I would set up a soft, quiet situation for him,
with a place to fall asleep in the living room (a futon and pillows
and blankets, all set up in a nice way) and some non-messy and non-
noisy snacks in a bowl, and a sippy cup or a bottle of juice (because
it's still good when it's warm, unlike milk), and remind him to be
really quiet.
When they were older and it wasn't just one kid up, sometimes they
would get in an argument or just get to talking too loudly and I'd
come and say if they couldn't be quiet they needed to go to bed.
Because we had a good relationship and they liked being able to stay
up, they would be quiet or go to bed.
-=-"This behavior makes me unwilling to bring you back next time" or
"People won't want to spend time with you if this is how you treat
them". It feels horrible, even though it is truth at the time.-=-
I don't know what the difference is. Partly, I'm not afraid to tell
my kids what I think is true about the effects of their behavior. I
don't know if it's just personality differences or they've seen me be
right or what. Did Jayn's ideas about her rights and the idea that
she can refuse to leave a party when it's ended come from messages
based on unschooling discussions? Because if so, I think it set up a
bad contract (without people having thought of it that way) way
early--that she "had rights" to do what she wanted. In our family
it was always privilege and gift, so instead of one big "do whatever
forever" that we had to be frustrated about it was "Can I do this?"
Yes! "Can I do it longer?" Not this time, sorry. "Can I do it
next time?" We can come back tomorrow, even.
We went out of our way to find them cool opportunities and they were
often (not always) aware that they had more fun lives than some other
kids, and so they cooperated with us to maintain that mood and momentum.
-=-Enacting "you can watch tv in the bedroom as long as you are
quiet" in an attempt to sleep myself has been a disaster.-=-
It's not something you can enact, when it's her behavior. I would've
said "It's just not okay. I have a physical need to sleep, your dad
has to go to work, NOBODY would think it's okay--not the neighbors,
not child welfare, not the police, not a judge. You can lie down
next to me and be quiet, or you can listen to music with headphones,
or you can watch a movie quietly, but those are your choices right
now."
-=-It's frustrating because clearly conditions and/or "if/then"
contracts have worked really well at Sandra's and Joyce's houses by
their own histories, but their kids accepted them. And mine WON'T.
Maybe she's just flat contrary.-=-
Maybe she's genetically resistent. Maybe there are personality
traits that are clashing with yours? But I'm suspecting that
somewhere back there she was told she has rights that she doesn't
naturally or legally have. Maybe a bigger living space or a detached
house would be important to move toward if you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am worried about leaving him awake downstairs all
alone. It doesn't seem like 4 is old enough to allow that kind of
behavior
(is this my mainstream brain talking?) and is it safe? Is it cruel or
kind?-=-
How could it be cruel?
Can you sleep where he is? That would help him learn to be quiet. I
think that helped with my kids, that they were doing things where
someone else was sleeping quite often, and they did figure out to be
quiet, and we were quiet for them when they were sleeping too.
If he's safe and he's not going to use knives or the stove or go
outside, and if you would wake up if he called you, it doesn't seem
dangerous to me.
-=-. It is hard to make plans unless
others are available in the afternoons or evenings. Will we ever get
back on
a semi-normal sleep pattern? We can't even meet Daddy for lunch (our
usual
fun bonding ritual) because when he calls at 1pm to make plans, Damon
probably just woke up and we're not ready to go anywhere.-=-
If Damon's in on the plans, he could go to sleep with you, and maybe
wake up early and play games when his dad goes to work, and then he'd
be awake at lunch. It's a problem to try to make plans without
everyone involved having had enough notice to plan on being awake
and ready.
-=-I discovered that a lot of the frustration on the part of my
husband is because he has to fight with his son for tv time,
something he holds dear and uses as a way to unwind after a long day
at work.-=-
Get another TV. That's easy. They're not expensive anymore, and
there are used ones at thrift stores and TV repair shops. You might
ask on freecycle. In the U.S., lots of people will be getting TVs
for Christmas this year because the flat screens have become less
expensive and there's a big signal conversion coming soon. Maybe you
could ask on a freecycle list to be the recipient of someone's old TV
after Christmas, if you can't find one today or tomorrow.
A TV is less expensive than a single visit to a therapist.
If your child were in school you'd have that much expense just in
clothes and lunches and transportation. Unschooling isn't free.
-=-I like the word passion better than obsession. I couldn't think of
a better way to put it, I didn't want obsession to seem negative.
Passion is better.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/focus
Read this too:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alone. It doesn't seem like 4 is old enough to allow that kind of
behavior
(is this my mainstream brain talking?) and is it safe? Is it cruel or
kind?-=-
How could it be cruel?
Can you sleep where he is? That would help him learn to be quiet. I
think that helped with my kids, that they were doing things where
someone else was sleeping quite often, and they did figure out to be
quiet, and we were quiet for them when they were sleeping too.
If he's safe and he's not going to use knives or the stove or go
outside, and if you would wake up if he called you, it doesn't seem
dangerous to me.
-=-. It is hard to make plans unless
others are available in the afternoons or evenings. Will we ever get
back on
a semi-normal sleep pattern? We can't even meet Daddy for lunch (our
usual
fun bonding ritual) because when he calls at 1pm to make plans, Damon
probably just woke up and we're not ready to go anywhere.-=-
If Damon's in on the plans, he could go to sleep with you, and maybe
wake up early and play games when his dad goes to work, and then he'd
be awake at lunch. It's a problem to try to make plans without
everyone involved having had enough notice to plan on being awake
and ready.
-=-I discovered that a lot of the frustration on the part of my
husband is because he has to fight with his son for tv time,
something he holds dear and uses as a way to unwind after a long day
at work.-=-
Get another TV. That's easy. They're not expensive anymore, and
there are used ones at thrift stores and TV repair shops. You might
ask on freecycle. In the U.S., lots of people will be getting TVs
for Christmas this year because the flat screens have become less
expensive and there's a big signal conversion coming soon. Maybe you
could ask on a freecycle list to be the recipient of someone's old TV
after Christmas, if you can't find one today or tomorrow.
A TV is less expensive than a single visit to a therapist.
If your child were in school you'd have that much expense just in
clothes and lunches and transportation. Unschooling isn't free.
-=-I like the word passion better than obsession. I couldn't think of
a better way to put it, I didn't want obsession to seem negative.
Passion is better.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/focus
Read this too:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Well, we now know that there are
sizable environmental influences early in life, while genetic factors
become
increasingly powerful over time. This is exactly the opposite of
conventional wisdom...We all assumed that environmental effects would
accumulate. So when you look at an adult, you'd expect a larger
influence
for environment and a lessened effect for genetics. It turned out to be
exactly the opposite."-=-
I've seen that in a lot of people, that they do become more like
their parents when they reach their 30's and 40's, no matter how
determined they were not to be. The idea that 21 is "grown" does
damage to people's expectations, too. It's better to let them know
that there's another kind of maturity around 30 (give or take a
couple of years), and there's something yet again when they're 50
(give or take five or ten years).
It was VERY unpopular in the mid 20th century to say that things like
dishonesty and irresponsibility could be inherited. People stopped
saying it, but it didn't stop manifesting itself all around them.
-=-I think this has clear implications for parenting, especially the
importance of Attachment Parenting in infancy.-=-
It says much to adoption, too, thought that's too unpopular to say in
the early 21st century.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sizable environmental influences early in life, while genetic factors
become
increasingly powerful over time. This is exactly the opposite of
conventional wisdom...We all assumed that environmental effects would
accumulate. So when you look at an adult, you'd expect a larger
influence
for environment and a lessened effect for genetics. It turned out to be
exactly the opposite."-=-
I've seen that in a lot of people, that they do become more like
their parents when they reach their 30's and 40's, no matter how
determined they were not to be. The idea that 21 is "grown" does
damage to people's expectations, too. It's better to let them know
that there's another kind of maturity around 30 (give or take a
couple of years), and there's something yet again when they're 50
(give or take five or ten years).
It was VERY unpopular in the mid 20th century to say that things like
dishonesty and irresponsibility could be inherited. People stopped
saying it, but it didn't stop manifesting itself all around them.
-=-I think this has clear implications for parenting, especially the
importance of Attachment Parenting in infancy.-=-
It says much to adoption, too, thought that's too unpopular to say in
the early 21st century.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was kind of put off because I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true,
I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! -=-
"Only played for three weeks"? He SERIOUSLY and dedicatedly and
intensely played for three whole weeks. That was less than $15 a
week. Less than $3 a day. At video arcade rates, fifty cents can go
pretty quickly. And he still owns the game, and might play it again
in a few months or years. My kids have very often gone back to games
they played years before, and with their maturity and new skills they
have an entirely different experience with the game.
When my kids were babies I started reading magazines instead of the
full fat history and biography and folklore research stuff I read
before they came along. Magazines were lighter (so if I dropped it
reading I wouldn't wound a nursing baby) and if I got food on it it
wasn't much loss, and if I put it down or lost it, ditto.
I realized that it seemed to me that a magazine I read slowly was a
better use of money than one I could zip through quickly. Then I saw
that if I bought a magazine and it was hard going or not really
interesting enough for me to read quickly, that it was NOT a good use
of money.
So with a game, if it took him forever to get through it, that's not
as good per dollar as something that captures his attention, that he
can keep up with and really play.
Is a three hour movie a better use of a movie ticket than a less-than-
two-hour movie?
Is driving five miles to a boring, irritating friend's house a better
use of gas money than driving twenty miles to a wonderful,
interesting friend's house?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! -=-
"Only played for three weeks"? He SERIOUSLY and dedicatedly and
intensely played for three whole weeks. That was less than $15 a
week. Less than $3 a day. At video arcade rates, fifty cents can go
pretty quickly. And he still owns the game, and might play it again
in a few months or years. My kids have very often gone back to games
they played years before, and with their maturity and new skills they
have an entirely different experience with the game.
When my kids were babies I started reading magazines instead of the
full fat history and biography and folklore research stuff I read
before they came along. Magazines were lighter (so if I dropped it
reading I wouldn't wound a nursing baby) and if I got food on it it
wasn't much loss, and if I put it down or lost it, ditto.
I realized that it seemed to me that a magazine I read slowly was a
better use of money than one I could zip through quickly. Then I saw
that if I bought a magazine and it was hard going or not really
interesting enough for me to read quickly, that it was NOT a good use
of money.
So with a game, if it took him forever to get through it, that's not
as good per dollar as something that captures his attention, that he
can keep up with and really play.
Is a three hour movie a better use of a movie ticket than a less-than-
two-hour movie?
Is driving five miles to a boring, irritating friend's house a better
use of gas money than driving twenty miles to a wonderful,
interesting friend's house?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
***My son is 4 and loves to play wii. ***
First off, I'm totally amazed at a 4 year playing that much (having the attention span) and completing games! Wow! That's awesome :)
***He saw a preview for the Lego Batman game and began asking me to take him to
the store to buy it. Every day... can we go to Game Stop? How about Target?
I was kind of put off because I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! ***
3 weeks? only 3 weeks? That actually sounds like a pretty good amount of time to be spent on a game. If you think of the money you spent per week, it's only $16-$17 per week. If you broke it up into hours spent I'm thinking it would put it into perspective too. If your child was doing some other activity you would be paying a lot more per hour. I'm thinking of the art classes my daughter is taking right now.. adding in the art supplies and all that.
Through our gaming years we've run across some games that definitely have more playability than others. But 3 weeks is a good amount of time. I'm talking we've bought games and we've seen in a couple of hours that it's pretty boring. We've chalked it up to experience and we've learned. Alec (ds15) now knows what type of games are worth his and our money, but that's taken some time to learn.
I think others have said this, but can you get another TV? Can you get another game system too? Really. It sounds like all of you enjoy it so why not delve into your passions? My son recommends the X-box 360 for games for older peoples :) and I LOVE our PS3.. such beautiful graphics.
Remember he's only 4 also, it will take some learning on his part that he can come back to his game. I'm thinking in reference to getting to meals or leaving the game. I know lots of adults who have a hard time leaving what they are absorbed in, and he's only 4. I would also make sure there's lots of good food right by him too, protein is a must for us.
I was also going to ask if he'd be interested in learning more about karate or other martial arts? It sounded like he was into that too. I'm sure there are studios around and he would have fun doing his kicks and moves with other people who like that too :)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First off, I'm totally amazed at a 4 year playing that much (having the attention span) and completing games! Wow! That's awesome :)
***He saw a preview for the Lego Batman game and began asking me to take him to
the store to buy it. Every day... can we go to Game Stop? How about Target?
I was kind of put off because I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd bought
it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks! ***
3 weeks? only 3 weeks? That actually sounds like a pretty good amount of time to be spent on a game. If you think of the money you spent per week, it's only $16-$17 per week. If you broke it up into hours spent I'm thinking it would put it into perspective too. If your child was doing some other activity you would be paying a lot more per hour. I'm thinking of the art classes my daughter is taking right now.. adding in the art supplies and all that.
Through our gaming years we've run across some games that definitely have more playability than others. But 3 weeks is a good amount of time. I'm talking we've bought games and we've seen in a couple of hours that it's pretty boring. We've chalked it up to experience and we've learned. Alec (ds15) now knows what type of games are worth his and our money, but that's taken some time to learn.
I think others have said this, but can you get another TV? Can you get another game system too? Really. It sounds like all of you enjoy it so why not delve into your passions? My son recommends the X-box 360 for games for older peoples :) and I LOVE our PS3.. such beautiful graphics.
Remember he's only 4 also, it will take some learning on his part that he can come back to his game. I'm thinking in reference to getting to meals or leaving the game. I know lots of adults who have a hard time leaving what they are absorbed in, and he's only 4. I would also make sure there's lots of good food right by him too, protein is a must for us.
I was also going to ask if he'd be interested in learning more about karate or other martial arts? It sounded like he was into that too. I'm sure there are studios around and he would have fun doing his kicks and moves with other people who like that too :)
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Until Megan started finishing entire games I didn't
know it was possible! I guess I thought the games went on
forever. -=-
Holly has "finished" several Harvest Moon games, but because there
are different options and outcomes, she often starts again right then.
Marty got to the end of Fallout 3, but went back to play
differently. There's a lot to see and do.
Holly's boyfriend, Brett, and a team of people, "finished" World of
Warcraft. I didn't know THAT could happen. <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
know it was possible! I guess I thought the games went on
forever. -=-
Holly has "finished" several Harvest Moon games, but because there
are different options and outcomes, she often starts again right then.
Marty got to the end of Fallout 3, but went back to play
differently. There's a lot to see and do.
Holly's boyfriend, Brett, and a team of people, "finished" World of
Warcraft. I didn't know THAT could happen. <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
***Holly's boyfriend, Brett, and a team of people, "finished" World of
Warcraft. I didn't know THAT could happen. <bwg>***
Probably before the expansion though <g> I was just informed this morning by Alec that they haven't even released the end game bosses yet for Wrath ;) patches that are yet to come, I guess.
And I'm now done with list reading and back to leveling my mage!
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Warcraft. I didn't know THAT could happen. <bwg>***
Probably before the expansion though <g> I was just informed this morning by Alec that they haven't even released the end game bosses yet for Wrath ;) patches that are yet to come, I guess.
And I'm now done with list reading and back to leveling my mage!
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Probably before the expansion though <g> I was just informed
this morning by Alec that they haven't even released the end game
bosses yet for Wrath ;) patches that are yet to come, I guess.-=-
Yes.
In March at the HENA conference, Kirby is going to talk about
Blizzard some--about what jobs people work there, and tell some
stories about the legal department and the internationalness of some
of the games, and the Chinese WoW points/gold (?) farms and such.
He does have some good stories.
I've heard expansion stories that I didn't understand, from several
people around me. I can tell it's huge and wonderful even if I don't
know what the points or gold is called. I support their interest
without playing it myself. I take them food. I wait until after
raids to ask anyone to do anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this morning by Alec that they haven't even released the end game
bosses yet for Wrath ;) patches that are yet to come, I guess.-=-
Yes.
In March at the HENA conference, Kirby is going to talk about
Blizzard some--about what jobs people work there, and tell some
stories about the legal department and the internationalness of some
of the games, and the Chinese WoW points/gold (?) farms and such.
He does have some good stories.
I've heard expansion stories that I didn't understand, from several
people around me. I can tell it's huge and wonderful even if I don't
know what the points or gold is called. I support their interest
without playing it myself. I take them food. I wait until after
raids to ask anyone to do anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad Holcomb
>In writing, I discovered that a lot of the frustration on the part of myWe're in the same boat with our 3.9 y/o son, competing for screen time. We
>husband is because he has to fight with his son for tv time, something he
>holds dear and uses as a way to unwind after a long day at work.
have TiVo, so lots of flexibility. I've also ripped about 50 of his
favorite DVD movies to AVI files. And I often save his favorite shows off
the TiVo to a PC and convert those to AVI. Besides the PC, we have 3
laptops in the house including his own, for YouTube and movies. His laptop
has over 100 AVI files on it...all his favorite movies and shows, plus
several completely new ones that I'm strewing on there. And he has a Cowon
A2 which is a Portable Media Player (PMP) kinda like a video ipod, but
bigger, more features, and a 4" screen and 10-hour video battery life.
I got him his own laptop and the PMP several months ago, when I first sensed
any screen "competition". I was just looking for ways to expand his options
and *our* options (plus the PMP is awesome for plane and car trips...no
discs to organize/transport/scratch). And it works, sometimes. But here
lately when his mom or I want to watch something on the big screen, he
starts yelling for one of "his" shows. It doesn't seem to matter how much
he's already watched that day. If I'm working from home that week instead
of flying away to a client, I'm down in my basement office all day, and he
watches whatever he wants all day. After I finish work, we wrestle and
otherwise play hard, then a couple hours later I start winding it down, tell
him I want to watch something on the TV so let's take some toys to the
couch, and 75% of the time he resists it. We offer to put whatever he wants
on his laptop or PMP, including new DVD's he's never seen before (in his
laptop). But, no, he wants to watch "the big TV".
So we've been talking about getting a second TV for several months, but it
doesn't seem like a good option. Because, along with wanting to watch the
Big TV, he also wants one/both of us in the room *with* him. Putting a TV
in the bedroom or guest room or downstairs in his basement playroom or in my
office...we've offered all of those suggestions, and he nixes them. He
wants to watch THE big TV, in the family room, with us there too, period.
It seems like the best option right now would be to put a second TV in the
family room, but then we'd have the competing noise. We all cosleep, so
we've never setup a "bedroom" for him. He has the entire big basement as a
play room, but that's it.
I'm not into TV that much. I like watching MotoGP motorcycle racing when
it's in-season, and other than that I watch Jon Stewart and Colbert once or
twice per week (on the TiVo, not live, sometimes watching 2 or 3 episodes in
a row in one night, on Thursday). With those, I just wait for him to fall
asleep, and help facilitate that by watching something with him until he's
dozing cradled in my arm. He and I both love Spongebob and sometimes South
Park, so he falls asleep to one of those at least 2 or 3 nights per week.
He and I have gotten into the new Time Warp show (super-hi-speed cameras
freezing cool events) the last couple weeks. And he/mom/I all enjoy Two and
a Half Men, although I think he mainly enjoys the audience laughter while
we're laughing at the raunchy humor (I had a roommate in the mid-90's who
was a narcissistic "player" type like Charlie, plus was a bodybuilder, so
Charlie is doubly funny to me).
As of today, I think that even if I bought four new 40" TV's and spread them
around the house, each with their own TiVo box and DVD player, he would
still want to watch whatever TV I/mom were interested in at that moment, but
with a different show ("his show") on it. We have a Wii, but he's not very
into it yet. We all play it a total of 3-4 hours/week. And if mom/I want
to play a Tennis match on it, for even a half hour, we have to wait until he
is VERY occupied with something (more difficult now that it's colder and the
big backyard isn't as attractive to him). We have a sitter every Friday
night, and while we initially hired her so we could go out for a Date Night
(he doesn't like sit-down restaurants), about half the time we stay home.
He plays with the sitter downstairs (big basement), and we (as a couple,
with a 2-month-old attached to mama) read or snuggle. Sometimes we'd like
to watch TV or play Wii as a couple, watching a show that he wouldn't enjoy,
but we avoid that because the few times we've tried it, he comes running
wanting one of "his" shows.
No solutions for you Kim, but it's helping me to type this. I do intend to
get a 2nd TV, as others have suggested. I just don't know where in the
house it will go. And I'm still struggling to figure out the ways we the
parents are contributing to this Competition dynamic. Back in the spring,
it was pretty obvious...my wife or I would just say, "No, you've had the Big
TV for X hours today, and now WE want to watch something, so that's what
we're going to do" and we'd spend 5 or 10 minutes trying to help him choose
something else to watch/do on his laptop holding and consoling him as he
cried about it, etc. We were in a tense place in our marriage, she was
pregnant, I was more cranky, and the whole house had an edge to it. And
even though his laptop is on the kitchen counter, really IN the family room,
he only seems to want to watch it when it's his idea. If we ask if he wants
to watch some new and cool on his laptop, he resists. Today is completely
different in that our marriage is solidly back on track, yet I'm thinking
that those couple months of being more coercive/firm about the TV around
March/April are still playing out in his attitude and actions. -=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< Did Jayn's ideas about her rights and the idea that
she had that "right" which is nonsensical, nor modelled persisting in
hanging around places we weren't welcome either. I would say that in her
mind she wasn't "refusing to leave" places; she was just wanting to keep on
swimming or playing with her friend, that on a few occasions have become
somewhat embarrassing power struggle - once with me that I can recall, and
once when she was with dh - but I won't assert that my memory is so
faultless that there may not have been a few more times that I just can't
remember, but these two times loom large.
We often have visitors that don't want to leave when their parents say so
too, because they are having a great time. Sometimes it takes a few times
saying "it's time to go" and other words like "we can come back soon" for
them to leave willingly too. I don't think they are unschoolers, although
they may be.
Also we weren't saying "If you don't leave now you will never come back" or
"you will go into time out when we get home" or "you just lost tv for today"
or "do you want a smack" or any of the stuff that make kids who want to stay
at fun, interesting places leave immediately when ordered to (supposedly).
<<<<> From the time they were nursing babies, they would lie down with us
occasions. She just went to bed with us and nursed to sleep. She still falls
asleep on the sofa about half the time and I "sleep-walk" her into the
bedroom. I often think of you or Keith, Sandra, doing the same with your
kids, as you have reported.
<<<<<> Because we had a good relationship and they liked being able to stay
that any challenging behavior coming from our children must be because our
relationships with them aren't sufficient. I would be sad to think that this
is what you mean to say.
I believe that Jayn and I do have a good relationship and that many of the
challenges I have, especially in being tired, are because she really does
want even more from me, even more of my attention and time and the fun we
have together. She wants me to play, draw, swim, write down her stories,
sew, read to her, make food, watch tv with her, play computer games, walk
around our favorite stores, listen to her adventures a lot, lot, lot. About
a 1000 percent more than I ever wanted my mother in my life at the age of 9.
You know that time versus age graph you made that is a diagonal line? Well
our graph looks like a horizontal line most of the time based on her
desires. Plus we laugh our asses off together.
Our relationship is my priority.
<<<<< I would've said "It's just not okay. I have a physical need to
sleep, your dad
conversations about child welfare and the possibility of other people
calling the police at different times including, I'm sorry to say, in the
heat of my anger. She knows that I'm tired if I have gone into bed. She
knows that dh has to sleep for work. And if she is in the bedroom poking me,
or pushing on dh with her feet and I say any of these things the next moment
she is crying even more loudly and coming up with more choices that involve
me getting up, and disturbing dh even more.
No one ever told her this behavior was OK, appropriate, or acceptable, or
one of her choices. On the contrary I would remove her sometimes with a lot
of anger and frustration. "That's not one of your choices" is one of my
favorite phrases in making things clear to Jayn. Now I don't even try to
take her in to the bedroom or go in myself unless *she* is truly ready and
tired, because it isn't worth a battle.
That's the real crux of it. When Jayn is having some kind of issue that is
making her behavior challenging in my judgment, the answer is for me to
change what I can change - which is MY attitude and MY behavior and MY
responses. Because when I am trying to change who she is, the results are
anger and stress.
Just like I put a lot of energy over the years into keeping her quiet rather
than disturb our neighbor below. Just like I would always take her for a
walk or carry drawing stuff rather than let her disrupt other diners in
restaurants. Just like I don't let her cut in lines but have various little
games and toys to keep it fun. Just like I didn't let her twirl in her
aunt's chotchkie filled living room. Just like I don't let her monopolise
the only swing at the park for hours. Just like I don't let her talk loudly
in the movie theater. Just like I ask her to keep her shoes on at the
grocery store. Just like I prevent her from touching things at museums.
(These last two are Jayn's cheerful contributions to this list).
<<<< But I'm suspecting that somewhere back there she was told she has
rights that she doesn't naturally or legally have.>>>
See above.
This is stemming entirely from information that I have given in the course
of looking for help clarifying my thinking. I kinda thought I had pretty
much put this to rest with the reply I made the other day. I've been
thinking it over since then, and truly I think it is temperament and
personality, not some wrong information that I've given her. Have you more
reasons to believe this than what I have said over the last couple of days?
Is there something in any of my posts from long ago that you can remember
that I could look at?
I think she is interested in finding how far her edges are in the world. I
see part of my role as parent to help her keep within the limits of decent
and lawful behavior, until such time as her own empathy and good sense show
her the value of those limits. In this I include such information as the
idea that people hearing a child screaming at 2am might call the police, and
the police might call CPS and while we have good food available and a
reasonably clean kitchen and bathroom, we would still be placed under
scrutiny and our freedoms within our home curtailed. I see the unschooling
angle being how I do this, with kindness and understanding and the
assumption that she is doing her best and will learn in time, without the
necessity for arbitrary "practice" limits or imposed punishments.
And in the end, most of the time, really the vast majority of the time
unless she gets particularly hungry or is extra tired (which would be my
responsibility to notice the signs of and address), she is very pleasant,
kind, generous and courteous outside of our home with friends and strangers
both.
A couple of days ago I found Jayn sitting a bit weepy on the sofa. She told
me that she is sorry she has been mean to me. I thanked her and she suddenly
said, "I know it's been for about two years".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> she can refuse to leave a party when it's ended come from messagesNot at all! That would be ridiculous. Nor have her father or I ever told her
> based on unschooling discussions? >>>>
she had that "right" which is nonsensical, nor modelled persisting in
hanging around places we weren't welcome either. I would say that in her
mind she wasn't "refusing to leave" places; she was just wanting to keep on
swimming or playing with her friend, that on a few occasions have become
somewhat embarrassing power struggle - once with me that I can recall, and
once when she was with dh - but I won't assert that my memory is so
faultless that there may not have been a few more times that I just can't
remember, but these two times loom large.
We often have visitors that don't want to leave when their parents say so
too, because they are having a great time. Sometimes it takes a few times
saying "it's time to go" and other words like "we can come back soon" for
them to leave willingly too. I don't think they are unschoolers, although
they may be.
Also we weren't saying "If you don't leave now you will never come back" or
"you will go into time out when we get home" or "you just lost tv for today"
or "do you want a smack" or any of the stuff that make kids who want to stay
at fun, interesting places leave immediately when ordered to (supposedly).
<<<<> From the time they were nursing babies, they would lie down with us
> when we went to sleep, or down next to me if I was up writing orSo did Jayn. I've written before about when she was younger on numerous
> watching a movie. If we were out and they fell asleep on the way
> home, we'd put them in bed. Bed was always a nice and good thing,
> not a "get in and stay in" thing. Sleep didn't have directly to do
> with bed. >>>
occasions. She just went to bed with us and nursed to sleep. She still falls
asleep on the sofa about half the time and I "sleep-walk" her into the
bedroom. I often think of you or Keith, Sandra, doing the same with your
kids, as you have reported.
<<<<<> Because we had a good relationship and they liked being able to stay
> up, they would be quiet or go to bed. >>>>This seems to be implying that Jayn and I don't have a good relationship, or
that any challenging behavior coming from our children must be because our
relationships with them aren't sufficient. I would be sad to think that this
is what you mean to say.
I believe that Jayn and I do have a good relationship and that many of the
challenges I have, especially in being tired, are because she really does
want even more from me, even more of my attention and time and the fun we
have together. She wants me to play, draw, swim, write down her stories,
sew, read to her, make food, watch tv with her, play computer games, walk
around our favorite stores, listen to her adventures a lot, lot, lot. About
a 1000 percent more than I ever wanted my mother in my life at the age of 9.
You know that time versus age graph you made that is a diagonal line? Well
our graph looks like a horizontal line most of the time based on her
desires. Plus we laugh our asses off together.
Our relationship is my priority.
<<<<< I would've said "It's just not okay. I have a physical need to
sleep, your dad
> has to go to work, NOBODY would think it's okay--not the neighbors,*Of course* I have said very similar things to this. We have had
> not child welfare, not the police, not a judge. You can lie down
> next to me and be quiet, or you can listen to music with headphones,
> or you can watch a movie quietly, but those are your choices right
> now." >>>>
conversations about child welfare and the possibility of other people
calling the police at different times including, I'm sorry to say, in the
heat of my anger. She knows that I'm tired if I have gone into bed. She
knows that dh has to sleep for work. And if she is in the bedroom poking me,
or pushing on dh with her feet and I say any of these things the next moment
she is crying even more loudly and coming up with more choices that involve
me getting up, and disturbing dh even more.
No one ever told her this behavior was OK, appropriate, or acceptable, or
one of her choices. On the contrary I would remove her sometimes with a lot
of anger and frustration. "That's not one of your choices" is one of my
favorite phrases in making things clear to Jayn. Now I don't even try to
take her in to the bedroom or go in myself unless *she* is truly ready and
tired, because it isn't worth a battle.
That's the real crux of it. When Jayn is having some kind of issue that is
making her behavior challenging in my judgment, the answer is for me to
change what I can change - which is MY attitude and MY behavior and MY
responses. Because when I am trying to change who she is, the results are
anger and stress.
Just like I put a lot of energy over the years into keeping her quiet rather
than disturb our neighbor below. Just like I would always take her for a
walk or carry drawing stuff rather than let her disrupt other diners in
restaurants. Just like I don't let her cut in lines but have various little
games and toys to keep it fun. Just like I didn't let her twirl in her
aunt's chotchkie filled living room. Just like I don't let her monopolise
the only swing at the park for hours. Just like I don't let her talk loudly
in the movie theater. Just like I ask her to keep her shoes on at the
grocery store. Just like I prevent her from touching things at museums.
(These last two are Jayn's cheerful contributions to this list).
<<<< But I'm suspecting that somewhere back there she was told she has
rights that she doesn't naturally or legally have.>>>
See above.
This is stemming entirely from information that I have given in the course
of looking for help clarifying my thinking. I kinda thought I had pretty
much put this to rest with the reply I made the other day. I've been
thinking it over since then, and truly I think it is temperament and
personality, not some wrong information that I've given her. Have you more
reasons to believe this than what I have said over the last couple of days?
Is there something in any of my posts from long ago that you can remember
that I could look at?
I think she is interested in finding how far her edges are in the world. I
see part of my role as parent to help her keep within the limits of decent
and lawful behavior, until such time as her own empathy and good sense show
her the value of those limits. In this I include such information as the
idea that people hearing a child screaming at 2am might call the police, and
the police might call CPS and while we have good food available and a
reasonably clean kitchen and bathroom, we would still be placed under
scrutiny and our freedoms within our home curtailed. I see the unschooling
angle being how I do this, with kindness and understanding and the
assumption that she is doing her best and will learn in time, without the
necessity for arbitrary "practice" limits or imposed punishments.
And in the end, most of the time, really the vast majority of the time
unless she gets particularly hungry or is extra tired (which would be my
responsibility to notice the signs of and address), she is very pleasant,
kind, generous and courteous outside of our home with friends and strangers
both.
A couple of days ago I found Jayn sitting a bit weepy on the sofa. She told
me that she is sorry she has been mean to me. I thanked her and she suddenly
said, "I know it's been for about two years".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-We have had
conversations about child welfare and the possibility of other people
calling the police at different times including, I'm sorry to say, in
the
heat of my anger.-=-
Maybe such things should be said by every parent, when there is no
anger. These things are true. It might be worth being sorry that it
was said in anger, but I think it should be said. I can't give my
children permission to be more noisy than courtesy or the law
allows, without being answerable to the neighbors or the police.
That's not anything to be sorry about. We chose to live in town
instead of out in the country and that affects the amount of noise we
can make.
-=-In this I include such information as the idea that people hearing
a child screaming at 2am might call the police, and the police might
call CPS and while we have good food available and a reasonably clean
kitchen and bathroom, we would still be placed under scrutiny and
our freedoms within our home curtailed. I see the unschooling angle
being how I do this, with kindness and understanding and the
assumption that she is doing her best and will learn in time, without
the necessity for arbitrary "practice" limits or imposed punishments.-=-
It seems you're making suggestions to her about her own behavior
(going by just that bit quoted above), and making it her choice and
her responsibility. What I said in such cases is "It's my job to
keep you inside and quiet, and if I don't do that we could have to
deal with the police." I would explain that the neighbors and the
city expect them to be in bed, especially when most kids have school
the next day, and so they either need to be in bed or be so quiet
that the neighbors don't know they're awake.
When I asked whether unschooling ideas were a factor the response was
"Not at all! That would be ridiculous."
"Ridiculous" is not a good word to use when people are helping other
people figure out how to live more peacefully. "Ridiculous" means
worthy of ridicule. I don't like having honest questions called
"ridiculous.
MANY (many) people have come through these lists saying "I thought I
had to let my kids do whatever they wanted to do," and "When can I
say no, if I'm going to be an unschooler?" and lots of other such
unschooling-based fallacies with which they've already upset the
apple cart of their family's interpersonal relations. They seem to
have adopted some "unschooling rules" that tied the parents' hands
and tipped the relationship toward the child's "rights" and
"freedoms." It's happened within the past month more than once, not
just on this list. It's not a silly question. And with all other
questions (although I'm sorry I particularlized it by using Jayn's
name), if others on the list wonder it of their own situations, they
clarify.
When people read these discussions they can become clearer on what
they believe by whether things sound true and useful or off and wrong
to them. That's fine! That's how people clarify and sharpen their
own arguments and reasons.
-=-A couple of days ago I found Jayn sitting a bit weepy on the sofa.
She told me that she is sorry she has been mean to me. I thanked her
and she suddenly said, "I know it's been for about two years".-=-
That's interesting, and cool.
Holly cried very hard once because she had been mean to a friend of
hers. They were 12 or so. That girl had been awful to Holly, to her
face and behind her back, for years, but when Holly finally came to
the point that she felt she had been mean, she was in tears.
-=- I see the unschooling angle being how I do this, with kindness
and understanding and the assumption that she is doing her best and
will learn in time, without the necessity for arbitrary "practice"
limits or imposed punishments.-=--=-
I don't agree with practice limits or punishments, but I don't always
assume my kids are doing their best. And if something isn't
discussed or pointed out, they might "learn in time" that they can do
it lots, and it can become a habit that will be harder to break later
than if they'd been asked to change it sooner. I don't mind a bit
trying to help my children behave in more socially acceptable ways,
or to see (which they're good at) that there are better and worse
times and places for certain behaviors. I asked them when they were
little not to eat with their mouths open or to bite their forks or to
make noise when they drink. It wasn't a big deal. It was changing
them, but they don't mind assistance to fit in more smoothly and
comfortably in the world. I've changed a lot over the years I've had
kids, too--sometimes from ideas other parents shared with me, and
sometimes from things my kids or my husband said might be better
done another way.
I don't think it's an unschooling angle, necessarily, to assume that
a child is doing her best in every instance. People don't always do
their best.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
conversations about child welfare and the possibility of other people
calling the police at different times including, I'm sorry to say, in
the
heat of my anger.-=-
Maybe such things should be said by every parent, when there is no
anger. These things are true. It might be worth being sorry that it
was said in anger, but I think it should be said. I can't give my
children permission to be more noisy than courtesy or the law
allows, without being answerable to the neighbors or the police.
That's not anything to be sorry about. We chose to live in town
instead of out in the country and that affects the amount of noise we
can make.
-=-In this I include such information as the idea that people hearing
a child screaming at 2am might call the police, and the police might
call CPS and while we have good food available and a reasonably clean
kitchen and bathroom, we would still be placed under scrutiny and
our freedoms within our home curtailed. I see the unschooling angle
being how I do this, with kindness and understanding and the
assumption that she is doing her best and will learn in time, without
the necessity for arbitrary "practice" limits or imposed punishments.-=-
It seems you're making suggestions to her about her own behavior
(going by just that bit quoted above), and making it her choice and
her responsibility. What I said in such cases is "It's my job to
keep you inside and quiet, and if I don't do that we could have to
deal with the police." I would explain that the neighbors and the
city expect them to be in bed, especially when most kids have school
the next day, and so they either need to be in bed or be so quiet
that the neighbors don't know they're awake.
When I asked whether unschooling ideas were a factor the response was
"Not at all! That would be ridiculous."
"Ridiculous" is not a good word to use when people are helping other
people figure out how to live more peacefully. "Ridiculous" means
worthy of ridicule. I don't like having honest questions called
"ridiculous.
MANY (many) people have come through these lists saying "I thought I
had to let my kids do whatever they wanted to do," and "When can I
say no, if I'm going to be an unschooler?" and lots of other such
unschooling-based fallacies with which they've already upset the
apple cart of their family's interpersonal relations. They seem to
have adopted some "unschooling rules" that tied the parents' hands
and tipped the relationship toward the child's "rights" and
"freedoms." It's happened within the past month more than once, not
just on this list. It's not a silly question. And with all other
questions (although I'm sorry I particularlized it by using Jayn's
name), if others on the list wonder it of their own situations, they
clarify.
When people read these discussions they can become clearer on what
they believe by whether things sound true and useful or off and wrong
to them. That's fine! That's how people clarify and sharpen their
own arguments and reasons.
-=-A couple of days ago I found Jayn sitting a bit weepy on the sofa.
She told me that she is sorry she has been mean to me. I thanked her
and she suddenly said, "I know it's been for about two years".-=-
That's interesting, and cool.
Holly cried very hard once because she had been mean to a friend of
hers. They were 12 or so. That girl had been awful to Holly, to her
face and behind her back, for years, but when Holly finally came to
the point that she felt she had been mean, she was in tears.
-=- I see the unschooling angle being how I do this, with kindness
and understanding and the assumption that she is doing her best and
will learn in time, without the necessity for arbitrary "practice"
limits or imposed punishments.-=--=-
I don't agree with practice limits or punishments, but I don't always
assume my kids are doing their best. And if something isn't
discussed or pointed out, they might "learn in time" that they can do
it lots, and it can become a habit that will be harder to break later
than if they'd been asked to change it sooner. I don't mind a bit
trying to help my children behave in more socially acceptable ways,
or to see (which they're good at) that there are better and worse
times and places for certain behaviors. I asked them when they were
little not to eat with their mouths open or to bite their forks or to
make noise when they drink. It wasn't a big deal. It was changing
them, but they don't mind assistance to fit in more smoothly and
comfortably in the world. I've changed a lot over the years I've had
kids, too--sometimes from ideas other parents shared with me, and
sometimes from things my kids or my husband said might be better
done another way.
I don't think it's an unschooling angle, necessarily, to assume that
a child is doing her best in every instance. People don't always do
their best.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And I'm still struggling to figure out the ways we the
parents are contributing to this Competition dynamic. Back in the
spring,
it was pretty obvious...my wife or I would just say, "No, you've had
the Big
TV for X hours today-=-
I don't know if it's a good idea for this situation, but I was
thinking if there was some physical representation of hours spent on
the TV (marbles moved from a box to a bowl, or paper cards moved from
one box to another or put up on a chart or something...) might it
help him at all to see that he's got a full page/bowl of markers, and
mom and dad have nearly nothing? (It would've helped me when I was
little, because I was big into measurements and "fairness.")
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents are contributing to this Competition dynamic. Back in the
spring,
it was pretty obvious...my wife or I would just say, "No, you've had
the Big
TV for X hours today-=-
I don't know if it's a good idea for this situation, but I was
thinking if there was some physical representation of hours spent on
the TV (marbles moved from a box to a bowl, or paper cards moved from
one box to another or put up on a chart or something...) might it
help him at all to see that he's got a full page/bowl of markers, and
mom and dad have nearly nothing? (It would've helped me when I was
little, because I was big into measurements and "fairness.")
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Just because you son has completed that game it does not mean he is done with it forever.
My son is 6 and started playing the a Nintendo DS at 4 and we than got the Wii a few months before he was 5.
He has completed some games and than months or even a year later he comes back to them and does some of it. What happens is that
at different ages they may get different things from the games. Or like you said my son has gone back to a completed game to do the secrets and extra stuff.
Also since my son is now able to read a little bit he can read some stuff that he could not before.
I have completed Super Paper Mario on Wii and I loved that game and sometimes I go back to some fun parts just because.
We do that a lot with Mario Galaxy ( I highly recommend for you son).
Its such a fun and pretty game.
Go ahead and get him the Lego Star Wars for Wii. It is very much like the Indiana Jones and he will love it.
We have it also in the Nintendo DS so my son can take with him when we go out.
Having and Nintendo DS makes it a lot easier to leave the house or go to bed since you can sit in bed and play ans just turn around and sleep.
I even have one for me with my games.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son is 6 and started playing the a Nintendo DS at 4 and we than got the Wii a few months before he was 5.
He has completed some games and than months or even a year later he comes back to them and does some of it. What happens is that
at different ages they may get different things from the games. Or like you said my son has gone back to a completed game to do the secrets and extra stuff.
Also since my son is now able to read a little bit he can read some stuff that he could not before.
I have completed Super Paper Mario on Wii and I loved that game and sometimes I go back to some fun parts just because.
We do that a lot with Mario Galaxy ( I highly recommend for you son).
Its such a fun and pretty game.
Go ahead and get him the Lego Star Wars for Wii. It is very much like the Indiana Jones and he will love it.
We have it also in the Nintendo DS so my son can take with him when we go out.
Having and Nintendo DS makes it a lot easier to leave the house or go to bed since you can sit in bed and play ans just turn around and sleep.
I even have one for me with my games.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
It seems like the best option right now would be to put a second TV in the
family room, but then we'd have the competing noise. We all cosleep, so
we've never setup a "bedroom" for him. He has the entire big basement as a
play room, but that's it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
YOu know it has worked for us for years to have one TV right next to the other. We have had no problem with the noise really.
Its like being in a group of people with two conversations going on at the same time. You kind of tune out the other with no problem.
you can also get headphones for TV. Even wireless ones.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
family room, but then we'd have the competing noise. We all cosleep, so
we've never setup a "bedroom" for him. He has the entire big basement as a
play room, but that's it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
YOu know it has worked for us for years to have one TV right next to the other. We have had no problem with the noise really.
Its like being in a group of people with two conversations going on at the same time. You kind of tune out the other with no problem.
you can also get headphones for TV. Even wireless ones.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 2, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Kim Zerbe wrote:
bit ... but it might help to look at this a different way. We tend to
look at games as toys. And a $40 toy we expect to be played with for
a long time. But if you see it as entertainment, it looks different.
Where else can you buy 3 solid weeks of entertainment for $40? For an
adult it would go into the $1000s at a resort. How many times have
you spent $60 on dinner that lasted maybe 2 hours tops? A movie at a
theater can easily be $40 for 3 people if you eat there, more if you
have dinner before hand even at McDonalds.
And, if he's ready to give up a game (and it's okay if he isn't),
check out selling them on Amazon. You can get a much better deal
selling them there than at GameStop.
Joyce
> I'd just spent $50 (oops, not true, I'd boughtObviously you've written a lot, and others have addressed quite a
> it used for $40) on a game he only played for 3 weeks!
bit ... but it might help to look at this a different way. We tend to
look at games as toys. And a $40 toy we expect to be played with for
a long time. But if you see it as entertainment, it looks different.
Where else can you buy 3 solid weeks of entertainment for $40? For an
adult it would go into the $1000s at a resort. How many times have
you spent $60 on dinner that lasted maybe 2 hours tops? A movie at a
theater can easily be $40 for 3 people if you eat there, more if you
have dinner before hand even at McDonalds.
And, if he's ready to give up a game (and it's okay if he isn't),
check out selling them on Amazon. You can get a much better deal
selling them there than at GameStop.
Joyce
Brad Holcomb
-=-And I'm still struggling to figure out the ways we the
parents are contributing to this Competition dynamic. Back in the
spring,
it was pretty obvious...my wife or I would just say, "No, you've had
the Big
TV for X hours today-=-
We haven't done anything similar to that for any situation, so I'll give it
some thought.
What it stirs for me right now is the idea of "fill his cup", emotionally
and otherwise. I don't remember if I originally got the concept from
unschooling philosophy, unconditional parenting (Alfie Kohn), TCS, Scott
Noelle's ideas of "attraction parenting", or somewhere else in the
reading/thinking I've done, but in most situations where there's a question
of "fairness" or a competition for a resource such as the TV, I try to look
for an underlying need that's not getting met...for attention or time with
me or whatever it might be. I have chosen to believe that if John's cup is
full, if his needs/wants are fully met, then we have less drama overall in
the house. And experimentally/experientially, this seems to be the case.
Some days, trying to get everything done, it feels like a high-minded ideal.
But in those times (especially on the weekends) when I can get away from
corporate life and earning money and other adult concerns, and completely
connect with John for uninterrupted hours and hours, life flows magically.
On those days, he'll *want* to watch motorcycle racing with me on TV,
instead of complaining about it as soon as I turn it on and insisting it's
"his turn".
Days when we're connected like that, nothing I say or do or offer to him is
challenged or questioned. He's happy-go-lucky. Life is fun. Problems are
solved easily and quickly. Other days, when the attachment/connection is
weaker, it feels like all day is one drama after another. Problems get
solved, but it doesn't feel like we're solving the "right" problems. And
attempts to talk and reason through things are met with his high-pitched
scream voice to loudly drown out my attempts to calmly offer any of the
several other options.
So if his figurative "cup" were full, I don't think there would ever be a
need for a physical representation like you described...a way to demonstrate
how much time he got on a resource such as the TV, to somehow convince him
that it's "enough for now", and now it's my turn.
I say all this to say that, even though I'd be willing to spend $2000
outfitting every room in the house with a home entertainment system to
increase his/our options (all except the master bedroom, where my wife
believes it would be bad feng shui to have a screen), it doesn't seem like
I'd be solving the "right" problem. -=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
parents are contributing to this Competition dynamic. Back in the
spring,
it was pretty obvious...my wife or I would just say, "No, you've had
the Big
TV for X hours today-=-
>I don't know if it's a good idea for this situation, but I wasI like the idea, and I think it will be useful a little more down the road.
>thinking if there was some physical representation of hours spent on
>the TV (marbles moved from a box to a bowl, or paper cards moved from
>one box to another or put up on a chart or something...) might it
>help him at all to see that he's got a full page/bowl of markers, and
>mom and dad have nearly nothing? (It would've helped me when I was
>little, because I was big into measurements and "fairness.")
We haven't done anything similar to that for any situation, so I'll give it
some thought.
What it stirs for me right now is the idea of "fill his cup", emotionally
and otherwise. I don't remember if I originally got the concept from
unschooling philosophy, unconditional parenting (Alfie Kohn), TCS, Scott
Noelle's ideas of "attraction parenting", or somewhere else in the
reading/thinking I've done, but in most situations where there's a question
of "fairness" or a competition for a resource such as the TV, I try to look
for an underlying need that's not getting met...for attention or time with
me or whatever it might be. I have chosen to believe that if John's cup is
full, if his needs/wants are fully met, then we have less drama overall in
the house. And experimentally/experientially, this seems to be the case.
Some days, trying to get everything done, it feels like a high-minded ideal.
But in those times (especially on the weekends) when I can get away from
corporate life and earning money and other adult concerns, and completely
connect with John for uninterrupted hours and hours, life flows magically.
On those days, he'll *want* to watch motorcycle racing with me on TV,
instead of complaining about it as soon as I turn it on and insisting it's
"his turn".
Days when we're connected like that, nothing I say or do or offer to him is
challenged or questioned. He's happy-go-lucky. Life is fun. Problems are
solved easily and quickly. Other days, when the attachment/connection is
weaker, it feels like all day is one drama after another. Problems get
solved, but it doesn't feel like we're solving the "right" problems. And
attempts to talk and reason through things are met with his high-pitched
scream voice to loudly drown out my attempts to calmly offer any of the
several other options.
So if his figurative "cup" were full, I don't think there would ever be a
need for a physical representation like you described...a way to demonstrate
how much time he got on a resource such as the TV, to somehow convince him
that it's "enough for now", and now it's my turn.
I say all this to say that, even though I'd be willing to spend $2000
outfitting every room in the house with a home entertainment system to
increase his/our options (all except the master bedroom, where my wife
believes it would be bad feng shui to have a screen), it doesn't seem like
I'd be solving the "right" problem. -=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org