control, choices, autonomy
Sandra Dodd
I got side mail from someone thoughtful and on the list, not a crazy
stalker this time. But still, I'm going to respond to it as though
it were anonymous.
The first part involves recent discussions about whether a child is
"in control" of his own life.
-=-not long after the above thread you said this: "I'm in control at
my house. Me and Keith, but he's let me make kid decisions always,
and he advises me when he thinks I'm going crooked or not thinking
clearly." Clearly you were using it in a different way but I'm not
sure how.-=-
Let me use "autonomy," then. As regards being the parent of my three
children, I'm not "autonomous" in those decisions, because Keith is
their dad and he's right there. But Keith and I decided together to
parent in gentle, progressive, counter-culture ways, and because we
have the right to make a decision like that and the power to enforce
it, we decided that and so we control the environment. We set it up,
we protect and defend it, and we maintain it. That takes some control.
By "the power to enforce it," I mean we're not in trouble with the
law (not on probation or otherwise limited), we're not having to fend
off interference from relatives and we're not afraid. We have the
confidence and the money to do what we've decided we want to do.
What we in our power and control have decided to do is to give our
children lots of freedom and choices. Not freedom and choices at
other people's houses or at their jobs, because we don't control
those environments, but when they're in situations in which other
people's parents might be saying "Sit still, be quiet, go to sleep
beause it's 8:00" and on and on, we don't do that. The reason we
have the freedom and choice to do that is a larger political
question. Not everyone in the world does. Not everyone in our state
and our county does.
Marty has some autonomy (I'm thinking Marty because he's home and I
was just talking to him). He was free to decide to drive to Las
Cruces (other end of the state) earlier this month. Today a traffic
ticket came from an automatic camera. It's in my name. He expected
it. He was going 45 in a 35, through a green light. Not a capital
crime. Not a dangerous crime. It was 2:45 in the morning and he was
the only car in the intersection. The ticket is in my name because
the loan and title of his car are in my name until he pays it off.
He had the right and power and freedom to be out driving. Does he
have the right to ignore that ticket? No, and he doesn't even want
to. The friend he was taking to Las Cruces had already offered to
pay for the ticket, but Marty won't press him to do that. So who's
in charge? Who's in control? Nobody's needing to be in control.
The stat is in control of what they'll do if we ignore this ticket.
<g> First move is the price would go up to $100. Next move might be
a warrant for Marty's arrest? No, wait... Mine!
Some unschoolers seem to want to take their freedom to fantasy land.
Unschooling is learning from the real world. Some unschoolers seem
to be not even wanting to live in the real world.
So thanks, you kind-of anonymous correpondent, for helping me see
where some of the misinformation and confusion is coming from. I'm
going to bring some of the other stuff from that e-mail to the list too.
Sandra
stalker this time. But still, I'm going to respond to it as though
it were anonymous.
The first part involves recent discussions about whether a child is
"in control" of his own life.
-=-not long after the above thread you said this: "I'm in control at
my house. Me and Keith, but he's let me make kid decisions always,
and he advises me when he thinks I'm going crooked or not thinking
clearly." Clearly you were using it in a different way but I'm not
sure how.-=-
Let me use "autonomy," then. As regards being the parent of my three
children, I'm not "autonomous" in those decisions, because Keith is
their dad and he's right there. But Keith and I decided together to
parent in gentle, progressive, counter-culture ways, and because we
have the right to make a decision like that and the power to enforce
it, we decided that and so we control the environment. We set it up,
we protect and defend it, and we maintain it. That takes some control.
By "the power to enforce it," I mean we're not in trouble with the
law (not on probation or otherwise limited), we're not having to fend
off interference from relatives and we're not afraid. We have the
confidence and the money to do what we've decided we want to do.
What we in our power and control have decided to do is to give our
children lots of freedom and choices. Not freedom and choices at
other people's houses or at their jobs, because we don't control
those environments, but when they're in situations in which other
people's parents might be saying "Sit still, be quiet, go to sleep
beause it's 8:00" and on and on, we don't do that. The reason we
have the freedom and choice to do that is a larger political
question. Not everyone in the world does. Not everyone in our state
and our county does.
Marty has some autonomy (I'm thinking Marty because he's home and I
was just talking to him). He was free to decide to drive to Las
Cruces (other end of the state) earlier this month. Today a traffic
ticket came from an automatic camera. It's in my name. He expected
it. He was going 45 in a 35, through a green light. Not a capital
crime. Not a dangerous crime. It was 2:45 in the morning and he was
the only car in the intersection. The ticket is in my name because
the loan and title of his car are in my name until he pays it off.
He had the right and power and freedom to be out driving. Does he
have the right to ignore that ticket? No, and he doesn't even want
to. The friend he was taking to Las Cruces had already offered to
pay for the ticket, but Marty won't press him to do that. So who's
in charge? Who's in control? Nobody's needing to be in control.
The stat is in control of what they'll do if we ignore this ticket.
<g> First move is the price would go up to $100. Next move might be
a warrant for Marty's arrest? No, wait... Mine!
Some unschoolers seem to want to take their freedom to fantasy land.
Unschooling is learning from the real world. Some unschoolers seem
to be not even wanting to live in the real world.
So thanks, you kind-of anonymous correpondent, for helping me see
where some of the misinformation and confusion is coming from. I'm
going to bring some of the other stuff from that e-mail to the list too.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
From the e-mail, too:
-=- The language of *giving* them autonomy jumps into our heads. And
its such a simple jump for us to make. Its not an idea that's put
out by the vets who *get* it though, its more of an assumption on the
parts of us newbies, at least that's how I think I've
-=-
But we DO give them autonomy. Parents can share power with kids but
they can't abrogate it. I can't just decide not to care what my kids
do, not to know what they do. I can't just decide that my kids can
do anything in the whole wide world. For one thing, lots of it might
be illegal or dangerous. For another thing, I don't own the whole
wide world.
First I need to understand what my realm of responsibility and
freedom and control are, and then I can let my kids romp and play
within that.
If I want to let my kids hit me, it would be stupid, but I could
legally do it (until they get old enough to have the police called on
them, and then anyone could report it and I wouldn't be able to say
"it's okay"). If I want to let my kids hit other people, that is NOT
okay.
If I want to let my kids take money out of my wallet without asking,
I can legally do that. I can't let them take money out of other
people's wallets.
I think some people looking at radical unschooling think an old set
of rules is being replaced with a new and opposite set of rules but
it's not like that at all.
I can't let a child be "autonomous," but I can absolutely give him a
huge range of options and considerations and respect and freedom. It
doesn't make him autonomous. It makes him answerable to me and his dad.
Sandra
-=- The language of *giving* them autonomy jumps into our heads. And
its such a simple jump for us to make. Its not an idea that's put
out by the vets who *get* it though, its more of an assumption on the
parts of us newbies, at least that's how I think I've
-=-
But we DO give them autonomy. Parents can share power with kids but
they can't abrogate it. I can't just decide not to care what my kids
do, not to know what they do. I can't just decide that my kids can
do anything in the whole wide world. For one thing, lots of it might
be illegal or dangerous. For another thing, I don't own the whole
wide world.
First I need to understand what my realm of responsibility and
freedom and control are, and then I can let my kids romp and play
within that.
If I want to let my kids hit me, it would be stupid, but I could
legally do it (until they get old enough to have the police called on
them, and then anyone could report it and I wouldn't be able to say
"it's okay"). If I want to let my kids hit other people, that is NOT
okay.
If I want to let my kids take money out of my wallet without asking,
I can legally do that. I can't let them take money out of other
people's wallets.
I think some people looking at radical unschooling think an old set
of rules is being replaced with a new and opposite set of rules but
it's not like that at all.
I can't let a child be "autonomous," but I can absolutely give him a
huge range of options and considerations and respect and freedom. It
doesn't make him autonomous. It makes him answerable to me and his dad.
Sandra
Jenny C
Not freedom and choices at
my younger daughter included, not to eat any more candy because it was
late. I could've told her, "Margaux can eat candy if she wants to."
Instead I pulled Margaux aside and asked her if she could wait for a few
minutes until we leave to continue eating candy, because the mom didn't
want her daughter to eat any more candy and eating candy in front of
that child would be mean. Margaux was fine with waiting and understood
that it would be mean, even though she really didn't understand why that
mom wouldn't let her child eat any more candy.
We were guests at someone else's house that has rules and such. We
choose to accept that in hand because we like that family even though we
disagree about a lot of parenting things.
> other people's houses or at their jobs, because we don't controlOn Halloween, we were at someone else's house. The mom told the kids,
> those environments, but when they're in situations in which other
> people's parents might be saying "Sit still, be quiet, go to sleep
> beause it's 8:00" and on and on, we don't do that.
my younger daughter included, not to eat any more candy because it was
late. I could've told her, "Margaux can eat candy if she wants to."
Instead I pulled Margaux aside and asked her if she could wait for a few
minutes until we leave to continue eating candy, because the mom didn't
want her daughter to eat any more candy and eating candy in front of
that child would be mean. Margaux was fine with waiting and understood
that it would be mean, even though she really didn't understand why that
mom wouldn't let her child eat any more candy.
We were guests at someone else's house that has rules and such. We
choose to accept that in hand because we like that family even though we
disagree about a lot of parenting things.
John and Amanda Slater
Not freedom and choices at
We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules about TV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed. Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed.
He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at least a few days, up to two weeks. There are other kids involved everywhere we go. I get stuck in respecting the rules of the house, and helping Eli. I can distract him with a book, or a walk, or something, and sometimes it works better than others.
Staying at a hotel is not an option for financial reasons and my family would not understand.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> other people's houses or at their jobs, because we don't control***Okay, but what if your kids don't want to conform to the rules of the house?
> those environments, but when they're in situations in which other
> people's parents might be saying "Sit still, be quiet, go to sleep
> because it's 8:00" and on and on, we don't do that.
We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules about TV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed. Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed.
He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at least a few days, up to two weeks. There are other kids involved everywhere we go. I get stuck in respecting the rules of the house, and helping Eli. I can distract him with a book, or a walk, or something, and sometimes it works better than others.
Staying at a hotel is not an option for financial reasons and my family would not understand.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Okay, but what if your kids don't want to conform to the rules of
the house?-=-
What do you expect people's answers to be here?
Unschooling doesn't change the rules of courtesy.
You either get courageous enough to speak to your relatives about
making exceptions, or you take alternatives (iPod or CD player with
headphones), or you don't visit the relatives.
-=-I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It
gives him a way to disconnect from the group. -=-
At my house, I don't like to have the TV or music on when people are
trying to visit. I would say no, if your son was here and wanted the
TV on in a large group situation. I wouldn't mind if he went in
another room to watch TV, or played a gameboy, but it wouldn't be
okay for anyone (mom or child) to ask me to turn the TV on (which
would disturb conversations) so that it would be easier for one
person to disconnect from the group.
-=-He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn
on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at
least a few days, up to two weeks. -=-
You could try not to visit so much, or at all, until he's older and
has more personal tools.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the house?-=-
What do you expect people's answers to be here?
Unschooling doesn't change the rules of courtesy.
You either get courageous enough to speak to your relatives about
making exceptions, or you take alternatives (iPod or CD player with
headphones), or you don't visit the relatives.
-=-I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It
gives him a way to disconnect from the group. -=-
At my house, I don't like to have the TV or music on when people are
trying to visit. I would say no, if your son was here and wanted the
TV on in a large group situation. I wouldn't mind if he went in
another room to watch TV, or played a gameboy, but it wouldn't be
okay for anyone (mom or child) to ask me to turn the TV on (which
would disturb conversations) so that it would be easier for one
person to disconnect from the group.
-=-He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn
on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at
least a few days, up to two weeks. -=-
You could try not to visit so much, or at all, until he's older and
has more personal tools.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
> He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn on the TV.Two thoughts come to mind.
1. Portable DVD players can be had pretty cheap these days, or a laptop in a bedroom.
2. Parent's attitudes have such a huge affect on how kids perceive reality. If the parent has a
begrudging "this is silly" kind of attitude about the rules of another house, then their child
will reflect that attitude.
Joanna
Jenny C
>" We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules aboutTV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed.
Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really
likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to
disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed."
Is there a seperate room for kids to go and play together? If there is,
can the kids have the TV on in a seperate space? What about a handheld
gaming device that he can watch movies on?
This is how I've always experienced family things, when I was a kid, and
now, with my in-laws. There's always another room to go with all the
kids.
TV isn't really an issue at my in-law family gatherings, in fact,
sometimes I wish it could be turned off so that the noise level would be
less. My husband's family is big and loud! Sometimes, I go hang out in
the other room with the kids because it's quieter!
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
From: Jenny C <jenstarc4@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: control, choices, autonomy
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 2:59 PM
>" We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules about
TV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed.
Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really
likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to
disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed. "
Is there a separate room for kids to go and play together? If there is,
can the kids have the TV on in a separate space? What about a handheld
gaming device that he can watch movies on?
***My sister's kids 5 and 4 are not allowed to watch TV at all. It can only be turned on when they are in bed. And my parents do fostering/adoption and have kids 16, 14, 13, 12 and 5 yo. They are only allowed to watch at night. The real problem is such a difference in the parenting styles makes it hard to find any type of compromise. This year there were up to 17 of us over a two week period.
On top of it all, I have the only boys. The overwhelming energy they bring to gathering is unwelcome by my family. They were not allowed to play smash brother on Wii when we where there because my boys got too excited. It caused loud laughter and lots of jumping around.
Sometimes we all have a good time and sometimes we don't. This year got a little better as the boys were old enough to be outside alone. My parents live at the end of a culdasac with sidewalk. Eli often escaped to ride his bike or scooter outside. And they love being in the hot tub. I am hoping as they get older they will understand better, and we only go once a year.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Amanda wrote:
"It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed."
and in a separate post:
"This year there were up to 17 of us over a two week period."
Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who is easily
overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for me, frankly.
We've often limited the time spent at relatives for this reason, and as dd gets
older, she handles visiting much better. She always takes her DS and iPod for
those moments when she needs to retreat into another room. Sometimes, we go for
a walk. Or she watches TV in another room. Same stuff she does at unschooling
conferences, actually!
could you stay fewer days? Or not go at all?
�> They were not allowed to play smash
jumping around going on in that house. Too bad for the kids who live there!
my 7- and 6- year-olds outside alone in a relatively unfamiliar place, even if
it is grandma and grandpa's at the end of a cul de sac with a sidewalk! It
might be a good time to connect with them, while they are getting some of their
energy out. You can even talk about what's going on in the house, in terms of
the house "rules" while not actually having to enforce them in the moment.
Were you expected to stay in the house?
whose home it is? It's good to know. But if they have trouble with it or are not
grasping the "rules," perhaps waiting until they *can* better understand it
would be preferable.
Could you invite your parents and foster kids to your house? Get together in a
neutral space?
Robin B.
"It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed."
and in a separate post:
"This year there were up to 17 of us over a two week period."
Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who is easily
overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for me, frankly.
We've often limited the time spent at relatives for this reason, and as dd gets
older, she handles visiting much better. She always takes her DS and iPod for
those moments when she needs to retreat into another room. Sometimes, we go for
a walk. Or she watches TV in another room. Same stuff she does at unschooling
conferences, actually!
>But, you still go? Do you feel unwelcome, too? I know it's once a year, but
> On top of it all, I have the only boys.� The overwhelming energy they bring to
> gathering is unwelcome by my family.
could you stay fewer days? Or not go at all?
�> They were not allowed to play smash
> brother on Wii when we where there because my boys got too excited.� It causedThat's too bad. I'm guessing there's not usually a lot of loud laughter or
> loud laughter and lots of jumping around.��
jumping around going on in that house. Too bad for the kids who live there!
> Sometimes we all have a good time and sometimes we don't.� This year got alive
> little better as the boys were old enough to be outside alone.� My parents
> at the end of a culdasac with sidewalk.� Eli often escaped to ride his bike orI'm thinking, given the circumstances and the anti-boy-energy bias, I would join
> scooter outside.�
my 7- and 6- year-olds outside alone in a relatively unfamiliar place, even if
it is grandma and grandpa's at the end of a cul de sac with a sidewalk! It
might be a good time to connect with them, while they are getting some of their
energy out. You can even talk about what's going on in the house, in terms of
the house "rules" while not actually having to enforce them in the moment.
Were you expected to stay in the house?
>And they love being in the hot tub.� I am hoping as they getWhat do you want them to understand? That "rules" are different, depending on
> older they will understand better, and we only go once a year.�
whose home it is? It's good to know. But if they have trouble with it or are not
grasping the "rules," perhaps waiting until they *can* better understand it
would be preferable.
Could you invite your parents and foster kids to your house? Get together in a
neutral space?
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
--"This year there were up to 17 of us over a two week period."
-=-Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who
is easily
overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for
me, frankly.-=-
Me too. I wouldn't have stayed a week at someone else's house with
little kids. Two days was about my limit.
And "up to 17" suggests some people didn't stay the whole time. I'd
go with that!
Sandra
-=-Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who
is easily
overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for
me, frankly.-=-
Me too. I wouldn't have stayed a week at someone else's house with
little kids. Two days was about my limit.
And "up to 17" suggests some people didn't stay the whole time. I'd
go with that!
Sandra
[email protected]
>I like to remember Benjamin Franklin's saying "Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days" and make my plans accordingly. <g>
> -=-Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who
> is easily
> overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for
> me, frankly.-=-
>
> Me too. I wouldn't have stayed a week at someone else's house with
> little kids. Two days was about my limit.
>True. I was thinking there could have been at least 11 people (grandparents and foster kids, Amanda's family) at one time, and that would have been too much for me.
> And "up to 17" suggests some people didn't stay the whole time. I'd
> go with that!
Robin B.
John and Amanda Slater
Thanks for the help Robin.
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, robin.bentley@... <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
Amanda wrote:
"It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily
overwhelmed."
and in a separate post:
"This year there were up to 17 of us over a two week period."
Whoa! That's a long time with a lot of people for a 7-year-old who is
easily
overwhelmed. It would be too much for my dd at 13 and too much for me, frankly.
We've often limited the time spent at relatives for this reason, and as dd
gets
older, she handles visiting much better. She always takes her DS and iPod for
those moments when she needs to retreat into another room. Sometimes, we go for
a walk. Or she watches TV in another room. Same stuff she does at unschooling
conferences, actually!
******
We live in Nashville, and my sister lives in Indiana. So I drive up to her house and pick her up and we drive together to NJ where my parents live. Since we leave home first and get home last, we end up being gone for the longest time. We spend two to three days in transit each way. Dh stays home to work and 15 hours is a long drive alone. It is more expensive to fly, and we need the extra vehicles. This year we got 6 day passes to Great Adventure which is only a few days from their house. It really made the time go better. And at Live and Learn we made friends in NJ, so that is something we are looking forward to next year.
>
> On top of it all, I have the only boys. The overwhelming energy they
bring to
> gathering is unwelcome by my family.
But, you still go? Do you feel unwelcome, too? I know it's once a year, but
could you stay fewer days? Or not go at all?
*****
This is tough. Since we go so rarely it is hard to figure out what will work ahead of time. A year's growth is a lot at this age. At home we have trampolines in the the house, a chin-up bar, and hopefully this weekend we will have a set of rings. The only quiet activity is Legos which don't travel well. We just have too many. My mom bought a small set at a garage sale, but it hardly compares to a house full. Besides there is almost always baby and they are a choking hazard.
My parents have been foster parents for 34 years and in that time have had about 4 boys and 40 girls. There is a clear preference for girls. However, they do try. They just don't understand how they can still run around the house after an hour at the park!! I'm not sure either!! I'm not sure that the boy's are aware of the preference. My parents are always very fair gift wise, and the boys rarely seek their attention.
My mom seems much happier to see me than the kids for the most part. She like having adults around. And love playing cards and such. After 34 years of foster parenting she does not really seek out the kids. It can bother me if I think too much about it. Mostly I just view it as strange and her loss.
*****
> They were not allowed to play smash
> brother on Wii when we where there because my boys got too excited. It
caused
> loud laughter and lots of jumping around.
That's too bad. I'm guessing there's not usually a lot of loud
laughter or
jumping around going on in that house. Too bad for the kids who live there!
****
No, that sort of play should be "taken outdoors." And the older girls are into the hang out and talk stage of teens and pre-teens. Jumping, screaming and such can only be tolerated in very small doses.
****
> Sometimes we all have a good time and sometimes we don't. This year
got a
> little better as the boys were old enough to be outside alone. My
parents
live
> at the end of a culdasac with sidewalk. Eli often escaped to ride his
bike or
> scooter outside.
I'm thinking, given the circumstances and the anti-boy-energy bias, I would
join
my 7- and 6- year-olds outside alone in a relatively unfamiliar place, even if
it is grandma and grandpa's at the end of a cul de sac with a sidewalk! It
might be a good time to connect with them, while they are getting some of their
energy out.
*****
I do usually follow them as soon as I can, but this year Eli was able to open the door alone, which meant he was not stuck if I was busy. Or if it got loud he could escape quickly. And sometimes I would follow them out and they would ask to be alone. I think being able to get out alone helped their autonomy.
*****
You can even talk about what's going on in the house, in terms
of
the house "rules" while not actually having to enforce them in the
moment.
****
They really do well with most of it. Food we work out by my kids eating something served, and also eating whatever else they like at odd times. All the kids are on different night schedules so that is not too difficult.
It is really the TV and computer that Eli has a hard time with. Until very recently we only had one and my parents have 5 and yet he can't watch whenever he wants to. There is also a Wii, gamecube and two computers. I understand why it is so confusing. And because he is the only one having such a hard time, it is hard to get the other parents to work with me. They just want him to be happy playing with his cousins and a small box of Legos. I wish he could be, but he just isn't. It took me years to except that TV helps him deal with overly social situations. I guess it is not hard to understand why they don't see it. I guess at some point it will come down to a question of how much compromising they are willing to do for us to come. And of course the whole situation is more difficult because they all feel I should punish him more for his outbursts.
I feel like this sounds much worse than it is. I might have to spend some time before next summer thinking about how bad it is. It sounds terrible written out, but it only feels that bad a few times a visit.
*****
Were you expected to stay in the house?
***
YES!! It would be easier not to go than to stay in a hotel.
****
>And they love being in the hot tub. I am hoping as they get
> older they will understand better, and we only go once a year.
What do you want them to understand? That "rules" are different,
depending on
whose home it is? It's good to know.
***
Yes, better able to understand why their cousins are not allowed to watch TV. Why things are so different from home. Eli tends to get "stuck" when he wants something. It is very hard for him to change gears and do something else. There are times he is more or less open to suggestions. When he is not it can take me up to an hour to get him to even consider another idea.
****
But if they have trouble with it or
are not
grasping the "rules," perhaps waiting until they *can* better
understand it
would be preferable.
****
How do you not go? They are excited about the trip when it comes up. They talk a lot about the hot tub. The like their cousin and aunts. I keep hoping for a good reason to skip the trip, but they do enjoy a lot of it, and I like for them to know their family. At least a little.
****
Could you invite your parents and foster kids to your house? Get together in a
neutral space?
****
They have come here, but it has to be when they are not caring for any little ones. Our house is not child proof and Eli gets very mad when little ones get into his stuff. Add that to cat allergies (we have three) and they have not been here in about 2 years. It is better when they come, but with 5 kids it can be tough for them to travel. Sometimes we see them at my sister's in Indiana. She has a slightly bigger house than us, no cats, and is a few hours closer to my parents. That is easier because we can make our own schedule. It is easier to plan a short trip, except my other sister can never make it. She is a teacher and also teaches summer school.
****
Thanks for all things to think about. I hope I don't sound too negative. I think some of it all comes from me being the youngest child, it is hard to get out of that sometimes. Also, since we homeschool and I stay home, we end up working around everyone else's schedule.
I need to talk to my boys and find some ways to get their needs met better. I get so overwhelmed when we are there, I have trouble thinking. Maybe if I come up with ideas ahead of time it would be easier to implement them. My boys are such homebodies, it can be difficult to get them out without a good plan.
I hope my boys are not so conflicted about dh and me when they grow up.
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
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John and Amanda Slater
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Me too. I wouldn't have stayed a week at someone else's house with
little kids. Two days was about my limit.
**We do that on my dh's side of the family. My in-laws asked if we had checked the boys hearing as they would not be so loud if they could hear themselves.
I already talked a lot about my family in the other LONG post.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Schuyler
When we travel we have a couple of portable DVD players with us. Usually Simon is the one who uses them most. It gives him control of when he watches something that is somewhat removed from the rules of the house. It gives him a something to do when and if he withdraws to the bedroom.
Somethings that really help is to get out of the house more. Find things going on where your relatives live that would be interesting to you and your family and invite anyone else to come along and go. See if there is a lego display going on at the local mall or a museum exhibit or a zoo or a botanic gardens or a cool park or whatever so that when you are there you are also out and about a lot. Bring new things to pull out in tense moments. Two player card games, so that he can be framed and buffered by engaging with you.
Invite family to come to yours more often. Try not to go to theirs so much, maybe see if you can go when there are fewer people around so that it is less of a large group to deal with. Yesterday Linnaea and I went to a science museum that a home-ed group uses. It was very chaotic. She sat on a couch and read for some of the time. It helped her to deal with the noise and the activity and not knowing anyone in the group. When the planned activity began she was very engaged and enjoyed doing and playing. Up to that point she needed me with her or else she wanted something to withdraw into like the book.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
________________________________
Not freedom and choices at
We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules about TV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed. Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed.
He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at least a few days, up to two weeks. There are other kids involved everywhere we go. I get stuck in respecting the rules of the house, and helping Eli. I can distract him with a book, or a walk, or something, and sometimes it works better than others.
Staying at a hotel is not an option for financial reasons and my family would not understand.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Somethings that really help is to get out of the house more. Find things going on where your relatives live that would be interesting to you and your family and invite anyone else to come along and go. See if there is a lego display going on at the local mall or a museum exhibit or a zoo or a botanic gardens or a cool park or whatever so that when you are there you are also out and about a lot. Bring new things to pull out in tense moments. Two player card games, so that he can be framed and buffered by engaging with you.
Invite family to come to yours more often. Try not to go to theirs so much, maybe see if you can go when there are fewer people around so that it is less of a large group to deal with. Yesterday Linnaea and I went to a science museum that a home-ed group uses. It was very chaotic. She sat on a couch and read for some of the time. It helped her to deal with the noise and the activity and not knowing anyone in the group. When the planned activity began she was very engaged and enjoyed doing and playing. Up to that point she needed me with her or else she wanted something to withdraw into like the book.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
________________________________
Not freedom and choices at
> other people's houses or at their jobs, because we don't control***Okay, but what if your kids don't want to conform to the rules of the house?
> those environments, but when they're in situations in which other
> people's parents might be saying "Sit still, be quiet, go to sleep
> because it's 8:00" and on and on, we don't do that.
We occasionally visit my family which all has very strict rules about TV watching. It can only be turned on at night, last thing before bed. Eli is used to having the TV on much of the time. I think he really likes the TV on in large group situations. It gives him a way to disconnect from the group. He gets easily overwhelmed.
He sometimes gets very distraught when he is not allowed to turn on the TV. All my family lives out of state so we are there for at least a few days, up to two weeks. There are other kids involved everywhere we go. I get stuck in respecting the rules of the house, and helping Eli. I can distract him with a book, or a walk, or something, and sometimes it works better than others.
Staying at a hotel is not an option for financial reasons and my family would not understand.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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John and Amanda Slater
Thanks Schuyler,
I was up last night thinking and I think a lot of the problem is I have homebodies. Even around town with friends Eli prefers to be home. He says at home he has his toys and can do and eat what he wants, when he wants. He gets upset if we are at the playground too long.
We have a portable DVD player for the car and I might have to set that up where is has permanate access to it. I have been trying to avoid having a big discussion with my family about exactly how our house is run. I don't really want their suggestions or input and I know they are not on-board with our choices. Well, since we normally go in August I have about 8 months to figure out what to say.
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
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I was up last night thinking and I think a lot of the problem is I have homebodies. Even around town with friends Eli prefers to be home. He says at home he has his toys and can do and eat what he wants, when he wants. He gets upset if we are at the playground too long.
We have a portable DVD player for the car and I might have to set that up where is has permanate access to it. I have been trying to avoid having a big discussion with my family about exactly how our house is run. I don't really want their suggestions or input and I know they are not on-board with our choices. Well, since we normally go in August I have about 8 months to figure out what to say.
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
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Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<I think a lot of the problem is I have homebodies>>>
If your kids are homebodies, then that is Who They Are. Having homebodies is
not the problem. The problem is trying to fight that, or change that, or
force situations that aren't comfortable on them.
Do you really Have To go to these overwhelmingly huge family gatherings - do
you Have To go at that particular time with all the added emotional stress
of it being a holiday? Do you Have To stay that long?
There were a number of years when we specifically avoided our family
Christmas gathering because it seemed to be too much for both Jayn and
James - and it was his folks! When we do go, we leave the instant any of us
become overwhelmed. Do your kids want to be there? For how long? Do they
feel they can opt out?
Here's an idea that may or may not apply.
My SIL does a holiday open house with light buffet snacks that is so much
easier since it is expected that people won't necessarily stay all night. If
you do something like that, especially if you are inviting work colleagues,
you have a great excuse....er I mean reason not to travel to the family
thing. "It's important for work" is a reason most people can understand.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
If your kids are homebodies, then that is Who They Are. Having homebodies is
not the problem. The problem is trying to fight that, or change that, or
force situations that aren't comfortable on them.
Do you really Have To go to these overwhelmingly huge family gatherings - do
you Have To go at that particular time with all the added emotional stress
of it being a holiday? Do you Have To stay that long?
There were a number of years when we specifically avoided our family
Christmas gathering because it seemed to be too much for both Jayn and
James - and it was his folks! When we do go, we leave the instant any of us
become overwhelmed. Do your kids want to be there? For how long? Do they
feel they can opt out?
Here's an idea that may or may not apply.
My SIL does a holiday open house with light buffet snacks that is so much
easier since it is expected that people won't necessarily stay all night. If
you do something like that, especially if you are inviting work colleagues,
you have a great excuse....er I mean reason not to travel to the family
thing. "It's important for work" is a reason most people can understand.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
<<<<I think a lot of the problem is I have homebodies>> >
If your kids are homebodies, then that is Who They Are. Having homebodies is
not the problem. The problem is trying to fight that, or change that, or
force situations that aren't comfortable on them.***I did not mean it was their problem, just the problem with traveling. It is easy to work with at home, it is just how to take it on the road.
*****
Do you really Have To go to these overwhelmingly huge family gatherings - do
you Have To go at that particular time with all the added emotional stress
of it being a holiday? Do you Have To stay that long?
****We don't go at Christmas, we go for two weeks in August. It is between summer school and the start of the school year.
If we see them at Christmas, dh comes and it is a much shorter visit.
Since my kids don's do big meals, or sometimes any meals, we avoid any holidays.
******
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Sandra Dodd
-=-If your kids are homebodies, then that is Who They Are. Having
homebodies is
not the problem.-=-
But it might not be who they are in all seasons and for life.
Sometimes a family will say "We're homebodies" as a group and one
poor kids is kinda itchin' to get out but has been told he's one of a
family of homebodies.
I understand your point Robyn, and I agree, except that if a mom
takes comfort in a declared label like "homebody," she might stop
offering opportunities.
It's okay for a child not to love to be with relatives for two
weeks. It's okay for a child to need his own space. But maybe he
would love overnight visits with friends, or two day vacations with a
parent or two. He might love two day visits with relatives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
homebodies is
not the problem.-=-
But it might not be who they are in all seasons and for life.
Sometimes a family will say "We're homebodies" as a group and one
poor kids is kinda itchin' to get out but has been told he's one of a
family of homebodies.
I understand your point Robyn, and I agree, except that if a mom
takes comfort in a declared label like "homebody," she might stop
offering opportunities.
It's okay for a child not to love to be with relatives for two
weeks. It's okay for a child to need his own space. But maybe he
would love overnight visits with friends, or two day vacations with a
parent or two. He might love two day visits with relatives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John Slater
>(grandparents and foster kids, Amanda's family) at one time, and that
> True. I was thinking there could have been at least 11 people
would have been too much for me.
>***
This year it was me and Eli 7, and Samuel (6), my sister Tonya with
Kylee (6), my sister Heather, with Prisca (5) and Phoebe (4) and
occassionally her husband. My parents and Gab (16), Cassie (14)
Ashley (13) all adopted, Holly (12) and Brianna (5 but developmentally
1 or 2). As well as my mom's friend Carol.
It really is a houseful. But operates much smoother than you would think.
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
Sandra Dodd
-=-It really is a houseful. But operates much smoother than you would
think.-=-
Amanda,
You have many months before the next scheduled visit to become more
more comfortable with unschooling, if you're considering this an
unschooling matter. You've received many suggestions about making
choices, and about options you might consider when you're there, and
about when, whether and for how long to be there at all. They'll be
in the archives if you ever want to review them.
Let's move back toward discussing the principles of unschooling now,
and away from more particulars of one situation. Thanks.
Sandra the Listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think.-=-
Amanda,
You have many months before the next scheduled visit to become more
more comfortable with unschooling, if you're considering this an
unschooling matter. You've received many suggestions about making
choices, and about options you might consider when you're there, and
about when, whether and for how long to be there at all. They'll be
in the archives if you ever want to review them.
Let's move back toward discussing the principles of unschooling now,
and away from more particulars of one situation. Thanks.
Sandra the Listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-If your kids are homebodies, then that is Who They Are. Having
homebodies is
not the problem.-=-
But it might not be who they are in all seasons and for life.
Sometimes a family will say "We're homebodies" as a group and one
poor kids is kinda itchin' to get out but has been told he's one of a
family of homebodies.
****I can easily see how a parent can miss the clues. I was in denial for years about my kids' preference for home. We have learned to only offer the outings that most seem like the kids would enjoy them. I have learned not to automatically say yes when someone invites us out. I wait and talk to the boys first. I am slowly learning to prefer this new slower schedule.
And when possible, not make it have to be a group decision.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< two weeks in August>>>>
Sorry - I guess I was making an assumption about it being holidays since
they are fast approaching.
Still do your kids want to go? Do they want to stay as long?
<<<****I did not mean it was their problem, just the problem with traveling.
It is easy to work with at home, it is just how to take it on the road. >>>
Of course it's easy to work with at home! That's what "homebody" means isn't
it. So the question you are asking is "How do I take my kids on the road
when they hate being on the road?" The first response is going to be "Do
they really have to go on the road? Do they really have to go on the road
now?" Only after the answer really being absolutely "Yes they do", THEN we
would get into some ideas for making it better for them.
I'm totally confused now. I thought it was your dh's family that you were
visiting. I'd better re read the whole thread.
Why are you visiting them? Are the positives outweighing the negatives - for
all of you? These are not questions you have to answer to me, but something
to look deep into your heart for. If the answer is anywhere in the realm of
"obligated" or "no choice" I would examine that too.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sorry - I guess I was making an assumption about it being holidays since
they are fast approaching.
Still do your kids want to go? Do they want to stay as long?
<<<****I did not mean it was their problem, just the problem with traveling.
It is easy to work with at home, it is just how to take it on the road. >>>
Of course it's easy to work with at home! That's what "homebody" means isn't
it. So the question you are asking is "How do I take my kids on the road
when they hate being on the road?" The first response is going to be "Do
they really have to go on the road? Do they really have to go on the road
now?" Only after the answer really being absolutely "Yes they do", THEN we
would get into some ideas for making it better for them.
I'm totally confused now. I thought it was your dh's family that you were
visiting. I'd better re read the whole thread.
Why are you visiting them? Are the positives outweighing the negatives - for
all of you? These are not questions you have to answer to me, but something
to look deep into your heart for. If the answer is anywhere in the realm of
"obligated" or "no choice" I would examine that too.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> It's okay for a child not to love to be with relatives for two
are having to cope rather than enjoy the visit.
We haven't heard much of what if anything they like about seeing their
relatives or travelling. There could be more to the story.
I'd like to encourage the poster, and everyone, to ask their kids what they
would like to do, if they want to visit relatives, if they'd like a shorter
trip. I've asked Jayn for years and every time.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> weeks. It's okay for a child to need his own space. But maybe heI think we're hearing more about what the kids aren't enjoying, and how they
> would love overnight visits with friends, or two day vacations with a
> parent or two. He might love two day visits with relatives. >>>
are having to cope rather than enjoy the visit.
We haven't heard much of what if anything they like about seeing their
relatives or travelling. There could be more to the story.
I'd like to encourage the poster, and everyone, to ask their kids what they
would like to do, if they want to visit relatives, if they'd like a shorter
trip. I've asked Jayn for years and every time.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd like to encourage the poster, and everyone, to ask their kids
what they
would like to do, if they want to visit relatives, if they'd like a
shorter
trip. I've asked Jayn for years and every time.-=-
Yes, and it's about priorities, too. Sometimes visits home have to
do with maintaining inheritance or doing financial business. Keith
and his dad always sit down for a long time and talk about loans and
insurance and such. Sometimes visits have to do with competitiveness
between siblings. If so, fine. That doesn't mean the in-law person
(that would be me, in Keith's family's scenario) can't take the kids
and go to museums or the zoo or something. Maybe one of the
grandparents would want to go. Maybe both.
Sometimes it can go totally to the child's preference, and other
times it can't, but it's helpful if the parents are really clear on
why they're visiting and what their options are.
Too much "because we always do" or "because we have to" thinking can
be bad for unschooling, and is always bad for clarity and mindfulness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what they
would like to do, if they want to visit relatives, if they'd like a
shorter
trip. I've asked Jayn for years and every time.-=-
Yes, and it's about priorities, too. Sometimes visits home have to
do with maintaining inheritance or doing financial business. Keith
and his dad always sit down for a long time and talk about loans and
insurance and such. Sometimes visits have to do with competitiveness
between siblings. If so, fine. That doesn't mean the in-law person
(that would be me, in Keith's family's scenario) can't take the kids
and go to museums or the zoo or something. Maybe one of the
grandparents would want to go. Maybe both.
Sometimes it can go totally to the child's preference, and other
times it can't, but it's helpful if the parents are really clear on
why they're visiting and what their options are.
Too much "because we always do" or "because we have to" thinking can
be bad for unschooling, and is always bad for clarity and mindfulness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sometimes it can go totally to the child's preference, and other
times it can't, but it's helpful if the parents are really clear on
why they're visiting and what their options are.
Too much "because we always do" or "because we have to" thinking can
be bad for unschooling, and is always bad for clarity and mindfulness.
***I think this is really the heart of the matter. How much choice can I give the kids in this? They enjoy parts (cousins, hot tub, day trips), but not others (lack of control, long car ride, overwhelming). I asked both the boys about visiting and they said they did not want to, until I reminded them of the parts they like.
We don't want to cut of relations with either side of the family, but nobody visits us much. In order to maintain a relationship with them we have to go see them at times. My boys don't talk on the phone, or send letters. Do we force the boys along and try our best to make it better? Or do we give the kids the option to stop visiting, which might mean no one visits and there are lots of bad feelings from relations?
Oh the trials and tribulations of living close enough to visit family, but too far to make it easy.
Lots to think about.....
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
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Joanna Murphy
"We have a portable DVD player for the car and I might have to set that up where is has
permanate access to it. I have been trying to avoid having a big discussion with my family
about exactly how our house is run."
Would it really be a big discussion if you were to set it up in your room with headphones?
I'm used to having a private space when we visit family--maybe it's not like that for you.
Even so, it seems to me that a simple statement that he likes to/is used to having more time
alone doesn't necessarily mean it has to become a big discussion. Would your family argue
with that?
Joanna
permanate access to it. I have been trying to avoid having a big discussion with my family
about exactly how our house is run."
Would it really be a big discussion if you were to set it up in your room with headphones?
I'm used to having a private space when we visit family--maybe it's not like that for you.
Even so, it seems to me that a simple statement that he likes to/is used to having more time
alone doesn't necessarily mean it has to become a big discussion. Would your family argue
with that?
Joanna
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:51 AM, John and Amanda Slater wrote:
relationships.
Your kids are really little still. You're forcing something because
you want them to feel part of your extended family? Consider the
possibility that by pushing it, the whole thing might backfire. I
never have contact with cousins that I was forced to visit when we
were little, and one of them lives only a half-day drive away. I
haven't spoken directly to her in years. My memories of visiting her
house are not great - her dad was a dictator and I was always scared
I'd do something wrong and bring down his wrath. Felt I had to walk on
eggshells all the time.
-pam
> We don't want to cut of relations with either side of the family,No you don't have to. There are lots of other ways to maintain
> but nobody visits us much. In order to maintain a relationship with
> them we have to go see them at times.
relationships.
Your kids are really little still. You're forcing something because
you want them to feel part of your extended family? Consider the
possibility that by pushing it, the whole thing might backfire. I
never have contact with cousins that I was forced to visit when we
were little, and one of them lives only a half-day drive away. I
haven't spoken directly to her in years. My memories of visiting her
house are not great - her dad was a dictator and I was always scared
I'd do something wrong and bring down his wrath. Felt I had to walk on
eggshells all the time.
-pam
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...> wrote:
Even so, it seems to me that a simple statement that he likes to/is used to having more time
alone doesn't necessarily mean it has to become a big discussion. Would your family argue
with that?
***Strangely , yes. My mom does not even like my dad to watch TV. And with two of the children not allowed to watch at all, it sets up a strange dynamic between the cousins. Which does not make it impossible, just a bigger problem than it might otherwise be.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
.
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[email protected]
> In order to maintain a relationship with them we have to go seeUm, not necessarily. That sounds like obligation. More "have-to's". Have you read this?
> them at times.�
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
It's mostly about kids' learning, but the theme of "choice" that runs through it might be helpful.
>My boys don't talk on the phone, or send letters.�Six- and seven-year-olds are very young to be doing that. Mom or dad can keep in touch through e-mail, letters, phone calls, sending photos or even videos of what the kids are doing.
This way, the parents get to control what information goes to extended family. Not to make it all sweetness and light, but maybe it can change that seemingly inevitable "discussion" about parenting and lifestyle, when grandparents feel informed about their grandchildren's lives.
Robin B.
Do we force
> the boys along and try our best to make it better? Or do we give the kids the
> option to stop visiting, which might mean no one visits and there are lots of
> bad feelings from relations?�
> Oh the trials and tribulations of living close enough to visit family, but too
> far to make it easy.
> Lots to think about.....
> AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
In order to maintain a relationship with
relationships.
----------------------------------------
Blogs with photos.
My inlaws don't do internet, but sometimes I print out the photos
from a recent blog page and send those with a letter.
For those whose parents and inlaws have internet access, a blog can
be a great way to update them regularly on what kids are doing and
how they look, and they're not there to object to what you've been
doing and you can show them the sparkly best parts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> them we have to go see them at times.No you don't have to. There are lots of other ways to maintain
relationships.
----------------------------------------
Blogs with photos.
My inlaws don't do internet, but sometimes I print out the photos
from a recent blog page and send those with a letter.
For those whose parents and inlaws have internet access, a blog can
be a great way to update them regularly on what kids are doing and
how they look, and they're not there to object to what you've been
doing and you can show them the sparkly best parts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]