family hogan

After reading many responses from you all about how to "deprogramme" my
thirteen year old, I still struggle. Thank GOD I wasn't looking to you all
to "approve" or validate my feelings about not having a television.

I truly believe that we as parents have a biblical responsibility to guard
our childrens' hearts and minds, not just "let them" put whatever they want
to into them. Do my children watch television, YES. Do they watch movies,
YES... But do they get to say "I want to watch Friday the 13th" and I go get
it for them? NO. Do they at seven, nine, or even thirteen years old
*want*to watch the teenage shows that promote girls wearing tight
short outfits
and boys oogling over them, or cartoons with disrespectful nasty attitudes
---YES. Am I responsible as a parent to not only SAY that might not be the
best choice, but to protect their hearts from that temptation since it is
NOT good for the growth of their hearts?YES Even though I would on occasion
let them watch these shows, and sit and talk with them about why they were
not good attitudes, and why we should not treat people this way -- if that
is what they are filling their minds with, they DO act that way. I have
seen it in MANY children, NOT just my own. I also don't see it as a good
thing to expose them (at ANY age) to the constant commercialism and the "BUY
BUY BUY" attitude that is shoved into every 5-7 minutes of television.

However, I did not write to this list to look for you to tell me "that's
great, you don't let your children watch television" *or *for the opposite
of that. And, that just isn't true. They do watch tv, and movies, and we
enjoy them together, and they enjoy some that I prefer not to watch... and
that is fine. My husband and I have simply chosen that it does NOT need to
be a daily focus in our household... and I am sure that we are better off,
as a family, for that.

I did write asking for help with trying to figure out what to do FOR my
thirteen year old. I have been struggling with him for years, and trying to
figure out how to change my expectations and how to encourage him to learn.
I have always struggled with him, and really it took me until I had a
younger boy, who is very self discovering and self teaching, to realize that
IT IS ME that is holding my older son back. I see that my younger son is
learning how to read, all by himself. How to write, when it is important to
him, how to do math that he needs. that when he wants to understand
something, he asks and he is willing to search it out. I would love my
older son to have that sort of zeal.. and I GET IT, that it is my fault -
totally - that he doesn't have that. I am trying to figure out what to do
for him now, why he still has the chance to recover some, if only a little.
I want to help him. I want our relationship to get better. We can sit for
an hour or two talking. he will help when I need him to help. He is a
great kid, and yes, it is my expectations that are getting in the way. I
feel like he doesn't put any effort into learning anything. but I am
starting to see differently as we are trying new and different things with
him.

I am trying to figure out how to NOT make the same mistakes with my other
children, and how to help my oldest make the best of his own life. I just
don't know where to start with him.

I have four younger children, I can't just go off everyday and take the
oldest everywhere, and do things with only him. So I have to figure out
what I *can* do that will help HIM to be happiest, wholest, most fulfilled
person he can be. I get it that damage has already been done. trust me, I
get that.

I also know that I might be able to help some of it heal, and I might not.
but if I can, I want to do it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thank GOD I wasn't looking to you all
to "approve" or validate my feelings about not having a television.-=-

Please read this page before ever posting anything else.

If you've read it, read it more slowly this time:

http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning

You said you've been watching this group for six months, but the
questions you're asking and your responses sound like you're very new
or haven't been reading at all. That's no crime, but your concerns
have been addressed in recent months.

-=-and yes, it is my expectations that are getting in the way. I feel
like he doesn't put any effort into learning anything.-=-

Stop expecting him to put effort into l earning. Change your life in
ways that make learning effortless.

-=-I am trying to figure out how to NOT make the same mistakes with
my other children, and how to help my oldest make the best of his own
life. I just don't know where to start with him.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

-=-My husband and I have simply chosen that it does NOT need to be a
daily focus in our household...-=-

Do you think there is any family on this list in which the parents
have decided that TV needs to be a daily focus in their household?
It's insulting to state your position as you have.

-=-I truly believe that we as parents have a biblical responsibility
to guard our childrens' hearts and minds, not just "let them" put
whatever they want to into them.-=-

Your priorities are important to you, and they might make
unschooling more difficult. I hope you're also a member of Christian
unschooling lists.

-=-But do they get to say "I want to watch Friday the 13th" and I go
get it for them? NO.-=-

Holly likes scary movies. I just asked her if she's ever seen Friday
the 13th. "No," she said. Years ago, I told the video store across
the vacant lot from our house that it was okay with me for my kids to
rent R rated movies. I made sure they put it in the notes of our
account. Holly turned 17 a week ago. She can legally go into any R
rated movie now. For her birthday she had asked for Grease and
Grease 2, and another family gave her a copy of Enchanted. Tonight
she was watching Follow that Bird. The other day she and I and her
boyfriend went to see Zack and Miri make a Porno.

The presence of adult-themed movies doesn't destroy a healthy, strong
person. Being old enough to watch R rated movies made no difference
with my kids. They haven't been told "Wait until you're older."
Kirby is 22 and recommended Wall E to me. When Holly visited him
last summer, he turned her on to a Sesame Street song she hadn't
heard before, and she came home and asked me to find her a copy. It
was right on my computer and I threw it on a disk right then.

What I'm trying to say is that your fears and negativity will do more
damage than "the "BUY BUY BUY" attitude and "the teenage shows that
promote girls wearing tight short outfits and boys oogling over
them." You are afraid the sky is falling, and your thirteen year
old boy might feel like the sky has fallen on him. Yet instead of
considering advice from people here whose teenaged boys are fine and
happy and calm, you seem to be insulting us, insulting your son, and
defending the stance and attitude that has not worked well up to this
point.

We have nothing to gain or lose from your decisions. Your son does.
Your other children do.

If the list might do you some good, then chill and be nice here. If
you're sure this list isn't going to help, you could go back to not
reading. There are other lists.

-=-I did write asking for help with trying to figure out what to do
FOR my thirteen year old.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning

http://sandradodd.com/feedback

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> Do you think there is any family on this list in which the parents
> have decided that TV needs to be a daily focus in their household?


Thanks to this list and the encouragement to seek out the fun and interesting, my son and
I have been searching out comedy. Right now, t.v. is on our daily "curriculum" (our
comedy curriculum--LOL!) and we are having a blast! Whereas several other parents I
know have been complaining to me about their teenage sons turning away from them and
not sharing their lives with them anymore, my son and I spend quality time together
everyday--looking forward to what's on the agenda.

I can't even tell you all the conversation that has been stimulated--we make liberal use of
the pause button--I mean all the comparing, analyzing, dissection and belly laughing we
have shared, the connections that have been made--I wouldn't trade our time for a
million bucks! And then there's the planning, discussing shows, comedians, actors,
politics, etc.

I feel sorry, now, for parents that hold on to their biases against modern media (t.v.,
computer, video games, etc.) for all that they are missing out on. I used to be in the "fear
t.v. because it is evil" camp, until I decided to trust my children to be drawn to what is
stimulating for them whether I understand it or not. Until someone has made that shift, it
is hard to really describe it--except to say that in my opinion, it is the place where the
relationship exists that everyone fantasizes that they will have with their children before
they are born, but then you don't because you are caught up in power struggles!

So after an entire day of LARPing and winter gardening, we settled down to a few episodes
of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's been a good day.

Joanna

Jenny C

> I truly believe that we as parents have a biblical responsibility to
guard
> our childrens' hearts and minds, not just "let them" put whatever they
want
> to into them.

I don't really want to get into a biblical discussion here, but if you
want to argue this line of thinking, you could also say that God gave
everyone free will. Are you going to take that away from your kids and
go against a very biblical principle? Free will is freedom to choose.
How can a child know how to make good choices, unless they can actually
do so. Does that mean they will always make good choices? No, and
neither does anybody else on the entire face of the planet.

> YES... But do they get to say "I want to watch Friday the 13th" and I
go get
> it for them? NO. Do they at seven, nine, or even thirteen years old
> *want*to watch the teenage shows that promote girls wearing tight
> short outfits
> and boys oogling over them, or cartoons with disrespectful nasty
attitudes

My oldest loves scary movies! When I say loves, I mean LOVES! It's a
passion, so much so that she was involved in a very intense Halloween
haunt this year where she learned sooo much about make-up, costuming,
special effects, human nature, and the list goes on and on. When she
watches scary movies, she's very analytical about them, she takes them
apart and dismantels them, expands on them, sometimes reads the books
they are based on and compares and critiques them.

She also watches movies and TV shows beyond her age and she doesn't
dress or act in any way inappropriate. She's very modest with her body
and she has an awesome attitude. Her bedroom door has a sign that says
"everything has the potential to be funny". It doesn't say "keep out"
or "enter at own risk", although she should have one like the latter ;)

This is what I know about kids being forbidden for the fear of some
horrible things that they might possibly pick up from said forbidden
thing, they will find a way to do it anyway. It becomes bigger than
them, more important, since it's so huge that it must be forbidden.
Parents may be able to control younger kids this way, but there will
come a day, like what you are experiencing with your oldest son, where
they will question your judgement and move towards independent thinking.
Sometimes they come to similar conclusions after years of soul searching
and sometimes they don't.


> ---YES. Am I responsible as a parent to not only SAY that might not be
the
> best choice,

This is insinuating that other parents that don't do what you do are
irresponsible.

> I have
> seen it in MANY children, NOT just my own.

Have you met any real life unschooled kids? I see it many children too,
but I have yet to meet an unschooled child with these issues.

>My husband and I have simply chosen that it does NOT need to
> be a daily focus in our household... and I am sure that we are better
off,
> as a family, for that.

The idea isn't about wether or not TV is a daily focus or how you feel
about it at all. It's about how it's effecting your children and how
they feel about it. It's about free choice and trust.


> I did write asking for help with trying to figure out what to do FOR
my
> thirteen year old. I have been struggling with him for years, and
trying to
> figure out how to change my expectations and how to encourage him to
learn.

People have given you a lot of ideas of what to do for you son. You've
been struggling with him for years, yet you won't stop doing what you
are doing and really look at alternatives that others are offering. I
don't struggle with my teen, we live very harmoniously, she's thriving,
and I doubt there is ever a moment that she isn't learning.


> I have always struggled with him, and really it took me until I had a
> younger boy, who is very self discovering and self teaching,

Some kids are just more obvious in what they are learning and doing. My
younger daughter is like this too, we all know everything that's going
on with her, all the time.

...he asks and he is willing to search it out. I would love my
> older son to have that sort of zeal..

Perhaps his life is too narrow. Perhaps he has a zeal for things that
you've forbidden or frown upon and can't search it out. Perhaps he
needs more in his life.

> I have four younger children, I can't just go off everyday and take
the
> oldest everywhere, and do things with only him.

Why does it have to be every day or none at all? Why can't you go and
do things with just him? My husband and I have had to do a lot of
double teaming so that our oldest can go out with just me or just him.
It's been hugely important and hugely beneficial. It also helps the
younger kid/s to get a larger percent of the other parent. This may be
especially helpful if your son is moping around being a negative nelly,
the younger ones could use a break from that too.

Jenny C

> I can't even tell you all the conversation that has been
stimulated--we make liberal use of
> the pause button--I mean all the comparing, analyzing, dissection and
belly laughing we
> have shared, the connections that have been made--I wouldn't trade our
time for a
> million bucks! And then there's the planning, discussing shows,
comedians, actors,
> politics, etc.
>

A kid that has this kind of support in watching TV that they love, can't
help but have a positive experience watching TV!

Chamille and her scary movies, really pushed me out of my comfort zone
because I'm not much of a scary movie person, BUT it's been really fun
to experience that with her!

Her experience watching scary movies isn't going to be at all the same
as kids watching a scary movie for the first time at a sleep over,
knowing that they'd be punished by their parents if they knew. They
can't even go home and talk about it to help process it for fear of the
punishment, which in all likelihood is more scary than the scary movie.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 8, 2008, at 9:43 PM, family hogan wrote:

> Thank GOD I wasn't looking to you all
> to "approve" or validate my feelings about not having a television.

This list is for discussion of ideas. If you have a practice you
don't want held up to examination, don't post it to the list.

You say you want help with your son but half your post is about your
philosophy of control. Because you've posted it, it's going to get
discussed because the ideas you've presented -- ideas we're all
familiar with and ideas that most of us have either used or grown up
with -- get in the way of unschooling.

And because you've begun you're post with it, I'm betting some people
will run out of time and energy before they get to the questions
about your son.

If anyone wants to impose another philosophy on top of freedom, they
need to figure out how to do it on their own. If you had a list about
Christianity, would you feel comfortable helping someone blend Islam
with it?

The posters here can't feel comfortable with control being suggested
as a compatible idea with unschooling. Control is damaging and it
interferes. If you want to control your children's lives and
unschool, you'll need to find ways to counter the effect of control
on your own because people here have found ways to help their
children grow up healthy and sound without the control and we know
it's not necessary.

> I truly believe that we as parents have a biblical responsibility
> to guard
> our childrens' hearts and minds, not just "let them" put whatever
> they want
> to into them.
>

By saying that, you're implying that we let our kids put whatever
into themselves and don't care because our philosophy of freedom is
more important than our kids.

I think it will help you hear what we're saying if you believe that
we care as much about our children's mental, physical and spiritual
health as you do. We've just found a way to do it without controlling
them and telling them what to do. We're their partners as they
explore the world. We trust that they have needs we don't understand
and that they're exploring ways of meeting them. We're there to help
them explore lots of different way. We trust that even though they
may make choices for themselves that we wouldn't, that because
they're being raised in a nurturing environment, that they don't want
to hurt themselves (though may put up with discomfort for a bit to
try something out). They *are* seeking ways to be happy and healthy.
They find those ways by freely exploring and feeling the negatives
and positives of their choices, sometimes putting up with the
negatives to experience the positives. But they're not stupid. They
use their heads and weigh and judge and do come to sound decisions as
they grow because we've trusted that they're capable.

We're also right here with them, helping them find ways to meet their
needs and be safe and respectful.

This is easiest when they're little, when their choices involve
staying up late, taking the big jump on their bikes, getting a toy
back from another child. When they're trusted early, there's no
reason to push the boundaries into areas many teens do when they have
the power to do so (drinking and driving, drugs). Unschooled kids
aren't perfect but they're poster children next to kids who've been
raised under control.

Does control always lead to rebellion? No, but it does a lot.
Unfortunately most people are convinced that when control fails it's
because they didn't control enough.

No one's telling you to change your ideas. We are saying the ideas
you're presenting won't be left to sit on the list without being
countered. If you don't want them countered, don't bring them to the
list. If you don't want to change, don't bring it to the list.

> ven though I would on occasion
> let them watch these shows, and sit and talk with them about why
> they were
> not good attitudes, and why we should not treat people this way --
> if that
> is what they are filling their minds with, they DO act that way.
>

Yes, kids try out behavior.

What I've found works better than no, is passing on how it makes me
feel. Kids *don't* want to hurt people but often don't know how to
get what they want without hurting someone. They need help not barriers.

This topic has been discussed here on the list. People *have* found
ways for their kids to be kind and respectful without controlling and
even without lecturing each time some bad behavior comes on the
screen. We trust that they're thinking creatures that don't want to
hurt.

If someone *does* want to tackle the topic of behavior that kids are
picking up on tv and then trying out on their siblings, this is a
great place to find respectful ways for kids to watch TV *and* be
nice. But it needs to be a current problem, not a hypothetical one.
Kids have real reasons for what they do. Hypothetical kids can get
"what if'd" to the point of ridiculousness.

> I also don't see it as a good
> thing to expose them (at ANY age) to the constant commercialism and
> the "BUY
> BUY BUY" attitude that is shoved into every 5-7 minutes of television.
>

And yet unschoolers do have kids watching commercials and they aren't
hyperconsumers. (In fact the past couple of years it's been tough to
get my teen daughter to think up what to put on her Christmas list.)
Control isn't the only answer. (Control ultimately isn't even a good
answer. Control might drive the immediate behavior out of sight, but
it pays for it with bigger problems in the future.)


> My husband and I have simply chosen that it does NOT need to
> be a daily focus in our household... and I am sure that we are
> better off,
> as a family, for that.
>

Yes, lots of parents here began there. Lots of people were raised
that way. *Everyone* is familiar with control. Yes, even gentle
loving control. The stories of the problems it created get discussed
here.

> I have been struggling with him for years, and trying to
> figure out how to change my expectations and how to encourage him
> to learn.
>

I don't think you can do both. Either you drop your expectations or
drop trying to change him.

Create a nurturing environment. Help him feel comfortable with who he
is. Help him feel comfortable reaching out. Help him feel comfortable
not reaching out. The more he feels you pushing, the harder he's
going to cling. Once you stop pushing that's when he'll start blooming.

> I see that my younger son is
> learning how to read, all by himself. How to write, when it is
> important to
> him, how to do math that he needs. that when he wants to understand
> something, he asks and he is willing to search it out. I would love my
> older son to have that sort of zeal.. and I GET IT, that it is my
> fault
>

If you pushed him to read and do math, perhaps it is.

If you've cut off avenues he would have loved to explore, then
perhaps it is. (I really can't say enough about video games and math
and reading.)

But not all kids are into researching things. Now that she's a teen
my daughter will research a few things and explore and discover on
her own, but other things -- especially things that might be labeled
academic -- she'd rather be shown or do it with someone who already
knows. But there are answers between pushing and standing back.
There's walking by their sides discovering things together. And other
options.

> and how to help my oldest make the best of his own life. I just
> don't know where to start with him.
>

Begin with who he is right now. What interests him? What does he love?

13 *is* a tricky time. Often times they don't know what they like.
(And you do make it harder by cutting off chunks of the world that he
could explore. I understand you have your reasons so you don't need
to tell us, but from experience unschoolers know that freedom (and
support while they explore) works much better for kids to find
themselves than limitations do.)

So you'll need to find ways to run more of the world through his
life. Take him to more of the world. (Even a new grocery store, an
ethnic market.) Be okay when he says no thanks. Respect that, but
also keep the doors open and keep opening new ones.

I know that's vague but your post about your son is vague too. 90% of
the post is about you. You haven't told us anything about him other
than what you want for him and what you don't want for him and where
he's living up to your expectations (eg, "good" which is such a vague
term that it says nothing). Who is he? You need to begin there rather
than with yourself.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-my son and
I have been searching out comedy-=-

So you're focusing on comedy, but not on "TV." There's comedy on
YouTube, and on the radio, and recordings without video of many
comedians over the years, and in conversations in your own life, and
in books and on greeting cards...

Joanna, this is beautiful, and I'm putting it on the quotes generator at

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

"...it is the place where the relationship exists that everyone
fantasizes that they will have with their children before they are
born, but then you don't because you are caught up in power struggles!"

Beautiful, and in my experience true, except for this: I didn't
fantasize having such a good relationship with my children. I had no
idea it was possible. It's BETTER than I fantasized. Some of my
best times of the past few days have been being in the car with
Holly, doing routine things, and standing and watching Marty play
Fallout 3. I'll pass by and something's interesting, and I'll watch
a while and ask a question, and then a cool song comes on the radio
in the game, and Marty tells me a story, and I stand there for
fifteen or twenty minutes. It's an interesting story and a weird set-
up and the art is cool. It's "bloody" (in a #CC0000-pixels kind of
way), and I don't care much for the maze-and-first-person-shooter
aspect, but the mystery and premise and story are good, and to see
Marty so involved and efficient at it is great. He's halfway through
the second playing, being a different kind of character and seeing
things he didn't see before. There are different endings depending
how you played. I hope I'm around when he gets to the end of the
story next time. He plays when he's not at work, but it's not the
only thing he does. This morning he's going to Santa Fe with his dad
for a kingdom-wide fighter practice (SCA thing) and then they're
coming back early so he can have a Thanksgiving dinner at the
restaurant where he works. The owners put on this dinner for their
employees and friends every year; the restaurant is closed.

Holly, meanwhile, will be at an airsoft battle in the mountains for
her friend's 18th birthday, and then I'll meet that party and others
who didn't want to shoot and be shot, at a restaurant (Garduño's at
Winrock) to celebrate the birthday (this is the family Holly stayed
with in England a few years ago), and then Holly will need to leave
the dinner early to go for a group interview at a store at Coronado
Mall, which is just half a mile from there.

That's busier than some days here, but Keith will be with Marty some
of the day, and I'll be with Holly some of the day.

Oh... and Holly's boyfriend is in on none of that. He'll be at the
house leading a World of Warcraft raid from noon 6:00 and a guild
meeting after that.

An interesting note: Holly, who's a very pink and fluffy kid, will
be going to a 7:30 pm interview without having been home since noon-
thirty. But it's for a sportsy store, so if she says "I was playing
airsoft in the Sandias," it might be points in her favor. She's
taking a spruce-up kit and will change in the restaurant bathroom.

How many parents of 17 year old girls get to know so much of what
they're planning and thinking? It's very, very cool here.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Jenny C has written some crucial info:

-=-This is what I know about kids being forbidden for the fear of some
horrible things that they might possibly pick up from said forbidden
thing, they will find a way to do it anyway. It becomes bigger than
them, more important, since it's so huge that it must be forbidden.
Parents may be able to control younger kids this way, but there will
come a day, like what you are experiencing with your oldest son, where
they will question your judgement and move towards independent
thinking.-=-

Holly could watch Friday the 13th but she hasn't. She might
someday, but only if she really wants to.

-=-...it's so huge that it must be forbidden...-=-

And forbidding it makes it MORE huge. Someone from a home where
"Friday the 13th" is named as an evil boogey-man around which (the
avoidance of) their lives are built is WAY more likely to absolutely
watch that movie someday to see what on earth is mother was on about.

Similarly, families that revile "Darwin" as a boogey man will have
kids who know more about Darwinism than my kids do. Why should they
read Darwin, really, unless they're interested? But over-controlled,
over-spooked children of fundamentalists will be the ones to look
into what's so evil that their parents are afraid enough to lie and
hide the TV about, to stay out of museums about, to censor their
kids' book choices about.

The damage of the effects of fear is often worse than the imagined
damage of the feared boogie-man thing.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paula Sjogerman

On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Beautiful, and in my experience true, except for this: I didn't
> fantasize having such a good relationship with my children. I had no
> idea it was possible. It's BETTER than I fantasized.


Same here.

Zoe is living in New York and I still know most everything that's
going on with her. Craig is there now and she was SO excited that he
was going to meet her friends and see her apartment. Last night,
instead of going to the party or the movie she was invited to, she
went grocery shopping with Craig and then they went back to her
apartment to watch a movie.

Part of that is the inverse of the attachment theory of "hold them
close and they'll be independent when they're ready." Zoe and I have
always talked about everything, but not because I pressed her to or
demanded it. I feel lucky to be able to know someone so well. Also,
it's not one-sided. Not in the we're-best-friends sort of way that
can get inappropriate, but just in an authentic I'm-a-person-you're-a-
person way.

Quinn and I have hours long conversations every day. I really
treasure this time, because I know once he's up and gone, that
probably won't be possible anymore. But it will be the foundation for
our relationship for the rest of our lives.

Paula

Sandra Dodd

I was adding a Joyce quote to my random quotes generator, and this
one by Lyle came up.

"Let your kids be WHO THEY ARE, not who someone thinks they should
be. Throw away the mold and let your kids LIVE." — Lyle Perry

Here's the Joyce-quote I added:

"Unfortunately most people are convinced that when control fails it's
because they didn't control enough."


Although people sometimes say they control their children out of
love, it involves fear and meanness. The love is too often love of
the fear of God, and love of the hope of having "model children" in
the eyes of church friends.

But even those who have no religious basis for control can control
the joy right out of their child's eyes.



-=-No one's telling you to change your ideas. We are saying the ideas
you're presenting won't be left to sit on the list without being
countered. If you don't want them countered, don't bring them to the
list. If you don't want to change, don't bring it to the list.-=-

I think some people are saying "If you want to unschool, changing
your ideas will help."

Joyce noted that one post was 90% about the mom. That might be a
ruler people can add to their toolboxes. When there's angst and
frustration, how much is about the mom's feelings? How much of it is
adversarial, even without having been intended? Remembering to have
a partnership relationship might help, when the mom is feeling that
the child isn't doing what would make her feel better:

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child



Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Part of that is the inverse of the attachment theory of "hold them
close and they'll be independent when they're ready." -=-

Is it the inverse, or is it just the ultimate other side of the
gradual curve?

I remember Marty and Kirby, when they were babies, toddlers, at La
Leche League park days. Kirby liked to go off with someone else, but
he would come back and sit with me. Marty, two and a half years
younger, would sit with me for a long time--an hour, maybe--and then
when he got ready to get up, he would go by himself, and far, too, in
his little baby waddle. Because he knew he was safe, and because he
knew he could come back when he wanted to, he had a huge amount of
courage.



It's still like that, with them, at 22 and 19. Marty has driven to
other towns, other states, but he comes back home. Kirby moved away,
but with a roommate he knew, and works with people he knew before.
He's still a little more cautious. When they were babies they were
babies of the people they are.

It's like the graph here:

http://sandradodd.com/howto

which might show in some people's e-mails (or not):

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 9, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Someone from a home where
> "Friday the 13th" is named as an evil boogey-man around which (the
> avoidance of) their lives are built is WAY more likely to absolutely
> watch that movie someday to see what on earth is mother was on about.

And even more than curiosity, it can become a personal challenge.
When something is forbidden the parent is in essence saying "You're
not strong enough for that. You can't handle it. It's more powerful
than you are."

What's an effective way to get most kids to push their boundaries,
like jumping off a high wall. "I bet you can't. That's too high for
you to jump off." ;-)

Kids will push their boundaries. They should be. They're growing and
changing and so are their limitations. They need to keep testing
them. But there isn't a reason for them to jump way beyond their
limitations *unless* someone else is saying they know the child's
limitations better than the child.

If we're our children's partners, we can be with them as they test
their boundaries. They won't be sneaking off to a friend's house to
watch Friday the 13th. They can watch little bits of it. They can
watch it with the lights on. They can fast forward. They can say "Not
ready yet," because they know they can always try again later if they
want to.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

<Holly could watch Friday the 13th but she hasn't. She might
someday, but only if she really wants to. >



My girls (12 and 13) could also watch Friday the 13th but neither of them
want to. I was really into scary movies and books as a teen but they don't
think they would like them and so they choose not to watch them or read
them. My younger dd has a fantastic imagination and she writes great
stories that are borderline horror stories. I've mentioned that she might
like some horror stories but she's not ready to go there yet and that's
fine. She'd rather write stories than read other people's stories at this
point anyway.

I was a huge Stephen King fan as a teen and I've yet to kill anyone even
though I filled my mind with all that stuff.



One thing my girls and I do enjoy watching together is crime shows. The
ones based on real crimes..some solved, some not. Most are violent crimes.
Despite that, they are the gentlest souls I know.



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paula Sjogerman

On Nov 9, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-Part of that is the inverse of the attachment theory of "hold them
> close and they'll be independent when they're ready." -=-
>
> Is it the inverse, or is it just the ultimate other side of the
> gradual curve?
>


I thought of it as the inverse, as in: treat them as independent
people and they'll want to be close.

It could also be the other side of the curve.

Paula, comfortable with duality <gg>