Sandra Dodd

I woke up with these two phrases in my head.

Unschooling requires that a parent be engaged and engaging.
Unschooling requires that a parent be interested and interesting.

Probably half the people here figured that out somewhat on their own,
or from similar statements made by Pam or Joyce or Deb or someone
when they describe what unschoolers DO and not just what they don't do.

It ties some things together for me, though, that have been clear in
my head but less clear in explanation, maybe.

For years I've said "not everyone can unschool," and people have
asked "like who?" and I've said some people are too cynical and
unwilling to change.

So here, I think, is where the cynicism and pessimism have hooked up
to my other concepts. A person who is negative and unsure things
will work (or worse, expresses a belief that things will NOT work)
needs to change that before unschooling can thrive.

There is unschooling that barely qualifies, that would maybe pass a
test or that someone else would nervously or grudgingly say "Yeah,
that's unschooling..." maybe thinking "except..." or maybe saying
"but you should get them out more" or "but you need to hang out with
them and really pay attention to them." Then there is unschooling
that is undoubtedly alive with its own propulsive intensity and joy.
There is unschooling that has momentum and flow.

That's what I was trying to describe in August, on this list, when I
wrote the response below
******************
<< I can't figure out how unschoolers do these things if they don't plan
to do them or structure the day so there is a time to do them.>>

Maybe it's like priming a hand-pump (another air pressure/water
situation)--the first pump gets nothing. The second usually gets
nothing.
Once the water's in the pipe, though, every touch on the pump handle
brings
water.

Or like sourdough bread. Once you have the starter and you keep paying
attention enough to make more bread every once in a while, "It's
easy." But
for those with no starter, it's not just not easy, it's not possible.
(That's theory. There's sourdough breadmix now that has the sourdough in
some kind of powdered and encapsulated form.)
**********************

It can be hard to get it started, because it takes new kinds of
effort and learning and attention on the parents' part. But if it
DOES get started, it will be self-sustaining for short bursts and
then longer periods, and eventually the parent(s) can figure out how
to do it with less effort. But if they never do the work to learn
how it works and then get it started, it would be like buying a hand
pump and leaving it in the box and continuing to ask how it's
supposed to get water out of the ground, or like getting bread
starter and never even trying to make any bread.

Yet unschooling is easier than hooking up a water pump or than making
sourdough.

People have this list and others; my website and Joyce's and others;
my book and Rue's and others. Being in proximity to those things
doesn't help, though. What helps is being interested enough to take
the ideas and use them until you start to understand them, and then
replace your old reactions and beliefs with the ideas that will turn
you into an unschooler. Being on a list with other unschoolers
isn't enough. It won't happen by osmosis or reflection.

I think now that when people come here and want to be unschooled
themselves, they want me to treat them like I treat my children, that
they want to have water come out of their pump just because I say I
have a pump. They want to eat homemade bread at their house for
having read about other people's sourdough bread.

Reading helps. Thinking helps. Questions and dialog and discussion
can help, but they can't create unschooling at anyone's house. The
parent must find ways to be engaged and engaging; interested and
interesting; inspired and inspiring.

Sandra
-----------
The quote above is from
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/6733
and here are links to help beginners or those who haven't quite
gotten it to flow yet:

http://sandradodd.com/help

And for images and more on siphon pumps:
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com/2008/10/hand-pumps-siphons-water-
containers.html
If that link cuts off go to
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com/ and scroll down.
And on the left column there are many links to unschoolers' blogs,
and you can see for yourself some examples of unschooling days.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 8, 2008, at 5:14 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>>>Being in proximity to those things
doesn't help, though. What helps is being interested enough to take
the ideas and use them until you start to understand them, and then
replace your old reactions and beliefs with the ideas that will turn
you into an unschooler. Being on a list with other unschoolers
isn't enough. It won't happen by osmosis or reflection.<<<

>

What is really interesting to me is that I just told people almost the
opposite the other day when I said that they need to focus on
understanding the basic reasons for and principles of unschooling -
that if they really grasp those, they won't have to decide whether or
not to unschool, they won't have to "pick" unschooling like they pick
a new curriculum, it will be the only thing that makes sense to do,
the only way they feel comfortable living.

So - I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile Sandra's point and mine
- or are they reconcilable?

> Reading helps. Thinking helps. Questions and dialog and discussion
> can help, but they can't create unschooling at anyone's house. The
> parent must find ways to be engaged and engaging; interested and
> interesting; inspired and inspiring.

So - it would be interesting to me to think about why people who seem
to understand unschooling and believe in its principles, still don't
do it. I think that is what Sandra is addressing.

Some of the reasons I can think of right off are those we've mentioned
before - cynical or pessimistic personalities, but also lethargic, low-
energy people might have trouble with getting going, too, getting
started at anything new can be an obstacle for some people. Also,
people who are very risk-averse, conformist, or fearful could
intellectually and even emotionally "get it", but have trouble acting
on their own beliefs.

That's when the answer is to fake it until you make it, I suppose.
Pretend to be an interesting and engaging person for a while - and,
over time, you'll become one? Ask yourself, "What would I do if I WAS
an interesting and engaging person?" Then do that. It'll become easier
and more natural.

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-That's when the answer is to fake it until you make it, I suppose.
Pretend to be an interesting and engaging person for a while - and,
over time, you'll become one? Ask yourself, "What would I do if I WAS
an interesting and engaging person?" Then do that. It'll become easier
and more natural.-=-

I think that works for courtesy and peace, too. "What would a
considerate person do?"



And when others respond to one as considerate, that will feel good,
and consideration might take hold.

When kids respond to a parent's interesting and engaging actions, it
might lead to more authentic and natural and easy engagement and
interestingness. (What a word, but I have to take Holly out to a
doctor's appointment and maybe a movie.)



Pam, I think the two statements can work together, but I don't think
someone can really understand or trust unschooling until they see
some evidence with their own children, maybe.

If anyone here has suggestions for tweaking these theories and
examples, let's do it! If we can summarize what we've danced around
for years, it will be wonderful.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>So - I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile Sandra's point and mine
- or are they reconcilable?

> Reading helps. Thinking helps. Questions and dialog and discussion
> can help, but they can't create unschooling at anyone's house. The
> parent must find ways to be engaged and engaging; interested and
> interesting; inspired and inspiring.

>>So - it would be interesting to me to think about why people who seem
to understand unschooling and believe in its principles, still don't
do it. I think that is what Sandra is addressing.

>>Some of the reasons I can think of right off are those we've mentioned
before - cynical or pessimistic personalities, but also lethargic, low-
energy people might have trouble with getting going, too, getting
started at anything new can be an obstacle for some people. Also,
people who are very risk-averse, conformist, or fearful could
intellectually and even emotionally >>

perhaps simply looking at it like a "summer break" (from a school mindset) and just see what throwing oneself into unschooling, and being an interesting, engaged, engaging, interesting person for 10 weeks to "see what comes of it" would be enough to see some real transformation in some children/families, and not so long that it feels like a permanent commitment to those who are more pessimistic, negative, fearful, compliant, etc. would help?

i also think learning styles definitely factors in here - some people DO learn, or at least gain the confidence and commitment to try something new - just by reading lists and talking to others. Other people need to *see* the "evidence" that it works in their family...or *experience* the feeling of being interesting and engaging....so maybe some reflection on an individual level of how each person changes/learns/adopts new behaviors - or had in the past with other life changing things - would reveal a path that works on an individual level?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-perhaps simply looking at it like a "summer break" (from a school
mindset) and just see what throwing oneself into unschooling, and
being an interesting, engaged, engaging, interesting person for 10
weeks to "see what comes of it" would be enough to see some real
transformation in some children/families, and not so long that it
feels like a permanent commitment to those who are more pessimistic,
negative, fearful, compliant, etc. would help?-=-

That will cancel out unschooling, though, especially if it's a real
summer break (the kids just got out of school, or just finished a
school-at-home session).

And if kids are between school sessions, they have *earned* their
break, and can't be expected to earn a reprieve from the return of
school by some accelerated unschooling experimet. I think it would
just "prove" to those families that unschooling doesn't work. But
anyone whose been through deschooling could tell them it won't work
that way, and DEFINITELY not if the kids know that school could be
returning on schedule in just a few weeks.

-=-also think learning styles definitely factors in here - some
people DO learn, or at least gain the confidence and commitment to
try something new - just by reading lists and talking to others.
Other people need to *see* the "evidence" that it works in their
family...or *experience* the feeling of being interesting and
engaging....so maybe some reflection on an individual level of how
each person changes/learns/adopts new behaviors - or had in the past
with other life changing things - would reveal a path that works on
an individual level? -=-

Maybe so, my site and Joyce's and this list and other providing all
of what anyone would need to be prepared to try unschooling no matter
what their particular learning style. It's their responsibility to
figure out how to make it work, not ours to ensure that they get it
working.

I just bought a book on making fountains. I've seen articles and
seen homemade fountains before, but I just wanted the book because
the photos are pretty and it had some great ideas. It has a page of
supplies one might need, with pictures and notes. We have most of
those things, but not all. I'm interested in getting the rest. If I
can't figure it out, I'll go online and look for faqs or
discussions. But it's not the job of the author of that book to
follow me down to the afternoon that I actually try to set up a
fountain and make sure it's working. And it wouldn't make sense for
me to write to the author (or to complain behind his back) that I
have that book and yet I still don't have a homemade fountain
(especially if I didn't actually buy the supplies or read the book).

There's still something missing. Somehow, for some reason, some
people expect unschooling to happen to them magically because they
have communicated with unschoolers. Is it school? Church? Social
clubs? What analogy is kicking in inside them that seems to make
them angry at experienced unschoolers when they don't get it going?
Partly it could be jealousy. Partly it could be irritation that
there actually is a lot of work involved, and that others ARE
expecting them to put up or shut up, to some extent.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>>>
That will cancel out unschooling, though, especially if it's a real
summer break (the kids just got out of school, or just finished a
school-at-home session).

And if kids are between school sessions, they have *earned* their
break, and can't be expected to earn a reprieve from the return of
school by some accelerated unschooling experimet. I think it would
just "prove" to those families that unschooling doesn't work. But
anyone whose been through deschooling could tell them it won't work
that way, and DEFINITELY not if the kids know that school could be
returning on schedule in just a few weeks.>>>



yeah- i didn't mean a real summer break - i was thinking about young kids, never been to school, with parents considering unschooling but unable to really envision it or trust themselves to be engaging and engaged.

-=-also think learning styles definitely factors in here - some
people DO learn, or at least gain the confidence and commitment to
try something new - just by reading lists and talking to others.
Other people need to *see* the "evidence" that it works in their
family...or *experience* the feeling of being interesting and
engaging....so maybe some reflection on an individual level of how
each person changes/learns/adopts new behaviors - or had in the past
with other life changing things - would reveal a path that works on
an individual level? -=-

>>Maybe so, my site and Joyce's and this list and other providing all
of what anyone would need to be prepared to try unschooling no matter
what their particular learning style. It's their responsibility to
figure out how to make it work, not ours to ensure that they get it
working.>>



i am confused - i thought you said that reading helps. discussing helps. but doing is necessary to really get it...?

.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

--------snip----------
Or like sourdough bread. Once you have the starter and you keep paying
attention enough to make more bread every once in a while, "It's
easy." But
for those with no starter, it's not just not easy, it's not possible.
(That's theory. There's sourdough breadmix now that has the sourdough in
some kind of powdered and encapsulated form.)

----------snip-----------


See, I got stuck here. It is possible. I've done it, no package, no hand-me-over starter, I set a little flour and water trap and in 7 days of coaxing and paying attention I got a sourdough starter (http://waynforth.blogspot.com/2006/04/sourdough-starter-recipe.html). I've had it for 3 years now. I feed it regularly, I use it regularly, the population lives in my fridge. The flavor has changed as we've moved from place to place. There are different yeast in different places. If you buy a San Francisco sourdough starter pack it will change with time to a local yeast population, unless you keep them in a hermetically sealed environment with filtered air...

I know it's a technicality, but sourdough is possible to create even without the starter. As long as you give yourself the week run up...

Schuyler


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John and Amanda Slater

--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:












-=-That's when the answer is to fake it until you make it, I suppose.

Pretend to be an interesting and engaging person for a while - and,

over time, you'll become one? Ask yourself, "What would I do if I WAS

an interesting and engaging person?" Then do that. It'll become easier

and more natural.-=-



I think that works for courtesy and peace, too. "What would a

considerate person do?"



***That reminds me of the book The Wizard of Oz.  The tinman has to be extra considerate of others because he does not have a heart and the scarecrow must think extra hard because he does not have a brain and the lion has to be extra brave because he has no courage.  The wizard of course only pretend to give the travelers these things. 

AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6





















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>Being on a list with other unschoolers
> isn't enough. It won't happen by osmosis or reflection.<<<
>
> >
>
> What is really interesting to me is that I just told people almost the
> opposite the other day when I said that they need to focus on
> understanding the basic reasons for and principles of unschooling -
> that if they really grasp those, they won't have to decide whether or
> not to unschool, they won't have to "pick" unschooling like they pick
> a new curriculum, it will be the only thing that makes sense to do,
> the only way they feel comfortable living.
>
> So - I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile Sandra's point and mine
> - or are they reconcilable?
>

I don't see them as being opposites, but different angles of the same
thing. You can't absorb unschooling through osmosis or reflection, but
you can take those ideas to heart and once you really get them, you can
live them.


> So - it would be interesting to me to think about why people who seem
> to understand unschooling and believe in its principles, still don't
> do it. I think that is what Sandra is addressing.

Yes, that's always been an interesting question, why someone who
believes in something and can talk the talk, but won't actually walk the
walk.


> Also,
> people who are very risk-averse, conformist, or fearful could
> intellectually and even emotionally "get it", but have trouble acting
> on their own beliefs.

I think this happens a lot! I've always been a bit of a non-conformist,
so not conforming to school think felt pretty natural. Not everyone has
or wants to be a non-conformist, so going against mainstream culture
feels extremely daunting.


>
> That's when the answer is to fake it until you make it, I suppose.
> Pretend to be an interesting and engaging person for a while - and,
> over time, you'll become one? Ask yourself, "What would I do if I WAS
> an interesting and engaging person?" Then do that. It'll become easier
> and more natural.


Always, what helps me, is to turn towards my kids, physically and
mentally. It is really that simple for me. If my focus is on them
instead of the whole host of other things I could be focusing on, I've
changed the dynamic. I can still do other things once my focus has been
directed toward them first, but if I do those things without my focus
being first on my kids, then they end up not being in the equation.
That alone is what allows me to be engaging with them, rather than
seperate from them.

I'm having a hard time puting that in words.

Schuyler

----------------snip---------------
>So here, I think, is where the cynicism and pessimism have hooked up
>to my other concepts. A person who is negative and unsure things
>will work (or worse, expresses a belief that things will NOT work)
>needs to change that before unschooling can thrive.
-----------snip--------------

A friend came over on Wednesday, after the election results were in and she was bummed, not by the election, but by the response that she had gotten from other people when she'd started a conversation about the U.S. election. This morning I was thinking about that cynicism, the cynicism with which her excitement had been met by the Brits she wanted to share with. Maybe part of it is simply that it doesn't touch that deeply into the British public, they aren't engaged by the election, even though U.S. politics have deeply affected Britain the entire time I've lived here, and I'm sure it has been doing so for a long, long time. Part of it is trying to be funny and smart. I know the person who most disappointed her with his response and he likes to be detached from most things. Cool is important, and cool = cynical from his perspective. Part of it may be that the U.S. system of electing a president may in and of itself produce an excitement that having a
prime minister doesn't do. You don't elect the prime minister, and, while technically you don't elect the president, it certainly feels like a greater degree of separation than the U.S. system has.

Elections are exciting to me. I have such optimism in each and every election I've watched. When I was a child we had election parties at our house. My dad ran for a few elections and so there was that level of excitment, that sense that change is possible that infused my relationship with elections. Nobody there was cynical. Nobody thought that it didn't matter who made it to the City Council or the Water board, or which new by-law was passed. There was a real sense that politics could change their world, my world, everybody's world. And they owned that changed, they walked the miles, they made the fliers, they shook the hands and they researched the routes of change.

It is different here. I can't vote, I'm not a citizen. I could change that. I could still get involved with things, even without voting. Instead of putting my time into changing the political world however, I've volunteered my time to the unschooling world. It has changed my life, and I get really excited about the process and the ideas and the little things that make a difference in mine and Simon's and Linnaea's and David's lives. I get excited, too, when I see that change happening in other people's lives. It can make it hard when somebody seems to want change, but only in theory.

I don't know if that is clear. I don't know if that is really what I wanted to say. But Linnaea wants to update her Meez and I'm working on getting Simon's character on WoW up a few levels before the expansion pack comes out.

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

I was thinking about your post and Pam's post, and here is what
bubbled up for me. It doesn't directly address the questions posed,
but I think it is relevant nonetheless.

There are a lot of questions for which the answer is TRUST. Trust
that your kids won't turn into people who play video games during
their waking hours, eat nothing but sugar, never sleep, etc. There is
a lot of encouragement to trust.

Which is good.

Sort of.

The trouble is that it can be misunderstood and turned into an excuse
for laziness. I have seen posts on this list and others where people
think that unschooling isn't work. They think that they can set up
this environment and the kids will just go. My kids are younger (5
and 2) so there are a lot of things that they need me to help with
that they may do on their own later (look things up, reserve books at
the library, read :).

In my house, I can tell when I am doing a good job and when I am not
doing such a great job. When I am stressed, haven't had enough sleep,
or I am feeling down, I find that don't do as good of a job and things
aren't as sparkly. When I am doing a great job following up on
interests, thinking of new things that my kids would like, being very
engaged etc. the difference in what the kids are doing and learning is
visible. It's wonderful and sparkly. It isn't that way all the time,
and it isn't the kids, it is me. I am trying to work on being
engaged, interested, and in inspiring even when I am feeling that way,
but it is something that takes effort.

I wonder if the fact that so much of the discussion is about trust and
being respectful that the other HUGE part of it seems to be overlooked
by people new to unschooling. So perhaps in the discussions about
trust, a reminder of the work is important too. It's happy work, in
my mind... but there is a LOT for the parents to do.

This is something the mother of a five year old who was trying to
unschool said "I wish I could find a way everyone could have their
needs met and coexist peacefully without me always having to be the
catalyst. " This is another bit from this list "One motivation for
making a change [to unschooling] is that I'm slowing down because I'm
aging. I turn 62 in December [snip] I love parenting. I've loved
homeschooling. But I'm tired."

Trusting does seem to be hard for a lot of people and I'm sure that
it's why it comes up so often.... but somehow the work involved in
unschooling seems to get overlooked. Yes, links to the strewing site
are posted regularly, but I think that sometimes that part of it seems
small (in terms of what is discussed) and I think that it is easy to
think that it's less work than it really is.

It isn't just unschooling lists... people that I know in real life
(who aren't unschoolers) think that unschooling is the mom doing
nothing. It is dead wrong, but that idea is out there.

Honestly, it seems strange to me when people think that unschooling is
less work. I think that it would be soooooo much easier to send kids
to school or to do curriculum out of a box. I don't unschool because
it's easy, I unschool because it can be sparkly and wonderful and it
is worth the work.

Margaret



On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I woke up with these two phrases in my head.
>
> Unschooling requires that a parent be engaged and engaging.
> Unschooling requires that a parent be interested and interesting.
>
> Probably half the people here figured that out somewhat on their own,
> or from similar statements made by Pam or Joyce or Deb or someone
> when they describe what unschoolers DO and not just what they don't do.
>
> It ties some things together for me, though, that have been clear in
> my head but less clear in explanation, maybe.
>
> For years I've said "not everyone can unschool," and people have
> asked "like who?" and I've said some people are too cynical and
> unwilling to change.
>
> So here, I think, is where the cynicism and pessimism have hooked up
> to my other concepts. A person who is negative and unsure things
> will work (or worse, expresses a belief that things will NOT work)
> needs to change that before unschooling can thrive.
>
> There is unschooling that barely qualifies, that would maybe pass a
> test or that someone else would nervously or grudgingly say "Yeah,
> that's unschooling..." maybe thinking "except..." or maybe saying
> "but you should get them out more" or "but you need to hang out with
> them and really pay attention to them." Then there is unschooling
> that is undoubtedly alive with its own propulsive intensity and joy.
> There is unschooling that has momentum and flow.
>
> That's what I was trying to describe in August, on this list, when I
> wrote the response below
> ******************
> << I can't figure out how unschoolers do these things if they don't plan
> to do them or structure the day so there is a time to do them.>>
>
> Maybe it's like priming a hand-pump (another air pressure/water
> situation)--the first pump gets nothing. The second usually gets
> nothing.
> Once the water's in the pipe, though, every touch on the pump handle
> brings
> water.
>
> Or like sourdough bread. Once you have the starter and you keep paying
> attention enough to make more bread every once in a while, "It's
> easy." But
> for those with no starter, it's not just not easy, it's not possible.
> (That's theory. There's sourdough breadmix now that has the sourdough in
> some kind of powdered and encapsulated form.)
> **********************
>
> It can be hard to get it started, because it takes new kinds of
> effort and learning and attention on the parents' part. But if it
> DOES get started, it will be self-sustaining for short bursts and
> then longer periods, and eventually the parent(s) can figure out how
> to do it with less effort. But if they never do the work to learn
> how it works and then get it started, it would be like buying a hand
> pump and leaving it in the box and continuing to ask how it's
> supposed to get water out of the ground, or like getting bread
> starter and never even trying to make any bread.
>
> Yet unschooling is easier than hooking up a water pump or than making
> sourdough.
>
> People have this list and others; my website and Joyce's and others;
> my book and Rue's and others. Being in proximity to those things
> doesn't help, though. What helps is being interested enough to take
> the ideas and use them until you start to understand them, and then
> replace your old reactions and beliefs with the ideas that will turn
> you into an unschooler. Being on a list with other unschoolers
> isn't enough. It won't happen by osmosis or reflection.
>
> I think now that when people come here and want to be unschooled
> themselves, they want me to treat them like I treat my children, that
> they want to have water come out of their pump just because I say I
> have a pump. They want to eat homemade bread at their house for
> having read about other people's sourdough bread.
>
> Reading helps. Thinking helps. Questions and dialog and discussion
> can help, but they can't create unschooling at anyone's house. The
> parent must find ways to be engaged and engaging; interested and
> interesting; inspired and inspiring.
>
> Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 8, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Jenny C wrote:

> Always, what helps me, is to turn towards my kids, physically and
> mentally. It is really that simple for me. If my focus is on them
> instead of the whole host of other things I could be focusing on, I've
> changed the dynamic. I can still do other things once my focus has
> been
> directed toward them first, but if I do those things without my focus
> being first on my kids, then they end up not being in the equation.
> That alone is what allows me to be engaging with them, rather than
> seperate from them.
>
> I'm having a hard time puting that in words.

That reminded me of something I learned about getting along with my
teenagers. It seems pretty easy for teenagers and their parents to
become adversarial - I see why, but I managed to almost totally avoid
it (I mean, we had our moments, but they were moments and far and few
between). One "trick" i used was that when I started to have any
feeling that we were sort of "facing off" - I would physically change
my position to be next to my kid, not face-to-face. I can't express
how much that physical move could mean - it often seemed to melt
antagonism almost instantly. While I maneuvered into a position beside
my kid, facing the same direction, I'd think to myself, "We are on the
same team. We're partners. We are NOT adversaries." I've since then
automatically done the same thing with lots of other people - work
people, my husband, my extended family, students.

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: engaged and engaging; interested and interesting


>>
That reminded me of something I learned about getting along with my
teenagers. It seems pretty easy for teenagers and their parents to
become adversarial - I see why, but I managed to almost totally avoid
it (I mean, we had our moments, but they were moments and far and few
between). One "trick" i used was that when I started to have any
feeling that we were sort of "facing off" - I would physically change
my position to be next to my kid, not face-to-face. I can't express
how much that physical move could mean - it often seemed to melt
antagonism almost instantly. While I maneuvered into a position beside
my kid, facing the same direction, I'd think to myself, "We are on the
same team. We're partners. We are NOT adversaries." I've since then
automatically done the same thing with lots of other people - work
people, my husband, my extended family, students.>>
. wow, that is really powerful. i have seen how i have done something similar recently with my teen and it really does change things - both within me and between us. thanks for putting it into words.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

<Yes, that's always been an interesting question, why someone who
believes in something and can talk the talk, but won't actually walk the
walk. >

I think people can believe it on an intellectual level but still not be able
to do it out of fear of what other people will think of their kids if they
don't appear to be on par with or ahead of their peers. A

Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It is possible. I've done it, no package, no hand-me-over starter,
I set a little flour and water trap and in 7 days of coaxing and
paying attention I got a sourdough starter (http://
waynforth.blogspot.com/2006/04/sourdough-starter-recipe.html).-=-

Right, but you made starter. You didn't make sourdough on day 1, but
on day 7 or 8.

People can't say "I unschooled today and it didn't work." It needs
to... get yeasty or something.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I can still do other things once my focus has been
directed toward them first, but if I do those things without my focus
being first on my kids, then they end up not being in the equation.
That alone is what allows me to be engaging with them, rather than
seperate from them.

-=-I'm having a hard time puting that in words.-=-



I think we're talking about something people have never talked about
before.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

.
> Pretend to be an interesting and engaging person for a while - and,
> over tim--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-That's when the answer is to fake it until you make it, I
supposee, you'll become one? Ask yourself, "What would I do if I WAS
> an interesting and engaging person?" Then do that. It'll become easier
> and more natural.-=-
>


Our kids are still young (3 to 7) and even though my two school age
kids have never been to school or we have never used a curriculum I
still approached things with a school mentality to some degree. For
the past several months I have let go of alot. I have tried to think
alot about why we do this or that and honestly I dont feel our lives
have been all that interesting or engaging. But over time I have felt
myself become interested in things again. In the last few weeks I
rented some movies on netflix that I thought I would like. documentarys
about things I have always been interested in. I love history but have
spent so little time pursuing it. Anyway, my 7 year old sat and
watched one of them about Explorers in Egypt with me. He was
facinated. When we went to the library I found a couple books on
Egypt. Yesterday my 5 year old was asking me about Egyptian writing
and my 7 year old started telling him about them. We found a chart in
one of the books and they wanted to write their name on a clay tablet
so we used playdo. Today my 7 year old wanted some popcorn and I was
trying to get a few bills done and had asked him to wait a few minutes
while I finished and he came in with a note he had written me in
hierogriphics (telling me how hungry he was). We also came across an
Egytian board game in one of the books and they wanted to play it. I
guess I am saying that as I feel myself genuinely interested in more
things they seem to be waking up too. As I take more interest in their
interests, I see them light up. It takes time, or it has for us, but
it is happening.

m_aduhene

Hi,
I would not have had a name for what I do instinctively on a
day-to-day basis until I found these sites and thought "hey there r
people like me out there" :-). People who just enjoy being with
their children and just accept them as other people in the family, and
not as objects to be ordered, directed and patronised. I think
accepting that I am not perfect and am still discovering things about
myself and the world, (a lot of which I am understanding through the
eyes of my children), has also helped a great deal becos it takes away
the compulsion to see yourself as the authority. I have been truly
astounded at times by the logic and reasoning that flow from the
mouths of my dd 7 and my ds 4. We by no means have perfect days, as
another poster stated, and there are times when I am grumpy and tired
and not my best. There are times too when my children feel the same
way. I alwys try to apologise if I have reacated in a certain way due
to my feelings on those days and try to understand their reasons for
their reactions on their "off days". I think the process of
unschooling is about growing together and establishing a relationship
with your children that sincerely tries to help them become everything
they have the potential to become, and then being there to pick up the
pieces and restore them when life doesn't turn out how they expect it too.
I have unsure days, but am beginning to realise it is only when I
begin to compare with others (usually not of an unschooling ilk,
usually the more structured home-schoolers).
My dd will never be a jump thru hoops kind of girl and I am beginning
to see that the way she is being able to interact with her world
allows her to pick and choose how she wants to progress and develop.
My ds is a sensitive little chap who had severe excema as a baby. He
is over-whelmed easily and I could not imagine him at this time of
his life coping with a roomful of other 4 year olds and not being
labelled as uncoperative and disruptive. Here at home he can go to
the supermarket with his dad at 8pm at night, watch a fish being
gutted (his request), bring it home, give it a name and just sit and
stroke it. Have a discussion about fish and how he wouldn't be able
to swim in the water now, and then the next day cut open the fish and
examine it's back bone, tail and the intracacies(sp?) of its' gills.
Unschooling for me just sums up life and all it's fun and sorrows,
joys and downfalls, kisses and hugs, chickens in the garden, sleeping
babies at 9am on a Monday morning when everyone else is rushing to
work, and running naked in the garden (the children not me) on a hot,
sunny day without a care in the world when most of the rest of the
city's children will be sweating at their desks.
Gosh.....I've just reassured myself in a big way what this life means
for me and what a life it means to my children.
blessings
michelle

Sandra Dodd

-=-In the last few weeks I
rented some movies on netflix that I thought I would like. documentarys
about things I have always been interested in. -=-

What about the movie "The Ten Commandments," or things that are more
dramatic and not so "documentary"? That movie might not interest the
kids start to finish, but they might like some parts (or some parts
might be too scary for them, come to think of it...)



Maybe some parts of these would be fun (or maybe you've already found
them):

http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/menu.html

http://www.touregypt.net/Kids/

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/Homework/Egypt.html





-=-I guess I am saying that as I feel myself genuinely interested in
more things they seem to be waking up too. As I take more interest in
their interests, I see them light up. It takes time, or it has for
us, but it is happening. -=-



Very cool.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Trust
that your kids won't turn into people who play video games during
their waking hours, eat nothing but sugar, never sleep, etc. -=-

I think you meant "all their waking hours." My kids do play video
games during their waking hours. <g> Kirby plays on his days off
from working at a video game company.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-In the last few weeks I
> rented some movies on netflix that I thought I would like.
documentarys
> about things I have always been interested in. -=-
>
> What about the movie "The Ten Commandments," or things that are more
> dramatic and not so "documentary"? That movie might not interest
the
> kids start to finish, but they might like some parts (or some parts
> might be too scary for them, come to think of it...)


The movie we got turned out to be a dramatization of the discovery of
King Tuts tomb and one about Belzoni and another about the Rosetta
stone. I didnt think my 7 year old would like it but he really did. I
rented the Disney version of Prince of Egypt the other day and they
liked it but I think I liked the Ten Commandments better. It opened up
a whole nother set of questions like, "why would God yell like that at
him?" He had a point.

Margaret

Yes, that is what I meant :) I have never tried playing video games
while asleep. I suppose you could play some sort game that was
controlled by what you did in your sleep. It could sort of like being
in the Matrix, if you could do it right.

Speaking of games, my son (2) was playing Mario Kart on our Wii and he
had us captivated one morning with his playing and my husband looked
at me and said something along the lines of "and if he wants to write
a video game instead of going to swimming, he can." His parents made
him go to hours of swim practice year round (he wasn't allowed to
quit until he went to college) and he couldn't spend very much time
during his summers writing video games with his best friend (DH is a
programmer now, so they didn't permanently foil him). I was really
glad that he could see some of the good in unschooling. I'm the one
who reads these boards and he sometimes has doubts and frustrations
about the way I want us to do things. It was really nice to see him
be so happy about unschooling and it's all because of video games :)

I had a similar happy moment about my mom. She found a video game
that she wanted to get my son a video game for Christmas and asked me
if I thought that he would enjoy it. I thought that was so cool. Not
many grandmothers would buy a video game (a real one intended for fun
- not an "educational" title) for a two year old. It made my day.

Margaret


On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Trust
>
> that your kids won't turn into people who play video games during
> their waking hours, eat nothing but sugar, never sleep, etc. -=-
>
> I think you meant "all their waking hours." My kids do play video
> games during their waking hours. <g> Kirby plays on his days off
> from working at a video game company.
>
> Sandra

Schuyler

I was thinking about it to and I couldn't have done it without information or curiousity or desire. The desire was actually from Simon and Linnaea or for Simon and Linnaea. We went to a friend of my step-dad's to see her wood stove that she used to bake bread. Simon and Linnaea loved her bread and I wanted to see if I could do something similar. I'm not a big bread fan, but I love giving Simon and Linnaea things that make them smile. Some of it may be what Jenny wrote:

>Always, what helps me, is to turn towards my kids, physically and
>mentally. It is really that simple for me. If my focus is on them
>instead of the whole host of other things I could be focusing on, I've
>changed the dynamic. I can still do other things once my focus has been
>directed toward them first, but if I do those things without my focus
>being first on my kids, then they end up not being in the equation.
>That alone is what allows me to be engaging with them, rather than
>seperate from them.

I spent a lot of yesterday playing on WoW. Linnaea was sitting next to me on this computer and Simon was on the couch on a different computer and David was either in the study, outside working on the car, or in this room watching television. There wasn't a lot of engagement going on. However, I was working on getting Simon's main character up in levels and cash and would frequently tell him where I was and what was going on. Linnaea played on Sims and then worked on her Meez and then on Toontown (which doesn't have as much available for non paying players as it did a year ago) with Simon and Linnaea and I talking about what she was doing. When they were littler I couldn't have done that. Simon and I used to sit and play games on the computer together, but Linnaea wanted motion and engagement and being and doing more. She still does. I be and do with them a lot. I enjoy the things I do, I like playing WoW, I like playing with the crocodile dentist with
them or going roller skating or building decks to play Yugioh. Actually, there was a lot of engagement going on. There were conversations about the cats and the crocodile dentist was out so a game of risk was going regularly. Pickle was playing with his towel, which got lots of conversation and movement around him. Linnaea had a big decision to make about whether she wanted an energy drink at 7 at night. I gave her my opinion and Simon enticed her to stay up late with him. In the end she decided that she didn't want to not be able to go to sleep when she wanted to. She did stay up pretty late. I don't know when she came to bed, she still wants me to sleep with her, but she read in bed for a while before turning off the light when it began to disturb my sleep too much.

Unschooling takes a near constant willingness to be interested in whatever is going on. It doesn't mean withholding judgement, but it may mean delaying it, giving something a go and not dismissing it out of hand. I really like that aspect of unschooling. I really like having "willing to give it a go" as part of my job description.

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com



----- Original Message ----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 9 November, 2008 12:04:12 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] engaged and engaging; interested and interesting

-=-It is possible. I've done it, no package, no hand-me-over starter,
I set a little flour and water trap and in 7 days of coaxing and
paying attention I got a sourdough starter (http://
waynforth.blogspot.com/2006/04/sourdough-starter-recipe.html).-=-

Right, but you made starter. You didn't make sourdough on day 1, but
on day 7 or 8.

People can't say "I unschooled today and it didn't work." It needs
to... get yeasty or something.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

claire.horsley08

I'm new to the group, but have been avidly reading this list and the Radical Unschooling
site. I see Sandra's phrase 'engaged and engaging; interested and interesting' as the day-
to-day physical living out of the philosophical principles Pam mentioned:

===(What is really interesting to me is that I just told people almost the
===opposite the other day when I said that they need to focus on
===understanding the basic reasons for and principles of unschooling -
===that if they really grasp those, they won't have to decide whether or
===not to unschool, they won't have to "pick" unschooling like they pick
===a new curriculum, it will be the only thing that makes sense to do,
===the only way they feel comfortable living.)

As my 2 daughters are still young (nearly 4 & 16 months), my approach to unschooling
has been from theory to practice. A friend introduced me to the writing of John Holt and
John Taylor Gatto, I then found Sandra's Radical Unschooling site, and have never looked
back. I have started to condense all this reading into principles which I then use every day
to make my behaviour more peaceful and loving and dynamic:

- my kids learn from my example
- my mothering instincts can be trusted
- I am guided by my love for my children
- unschooling is a continuum that can last a lifetime
- hard work in the early years is repaid many times over
- I am fallible just like everyone else but openness and reflection can help me not to repeat
mistakes

I think for unschooling to work there needs to be a unity of theory and practice - both a
well thought-out philosophical framework and an ability to bring those principles to bear
on a daily stream of ever-changing scenarios. For this to be possible I think one of the
main things required is time - time to read, to mull over what you read, and then time
during the whirl of the day to take a breath, stop the controlling reactions and draw forth
your loving, patient, engaged and interesting self. Each day, in little steps, I am doing this
and already I can see that our home is more peaceful and our relationships more loving.

The hard work of unschooling comes not only from the day to day engagement with kids'
learning, but also (and this may be too big a hurdle for some) because ultimately
unschooling asks us to confront the question 'What kind of person am I?'

Stephanie Bonck

I have been TRULY unschooling for about one month now. My 12 year old daughter came out of the blue and said she wanted to do some math. She is doing it in small increments when she feels like it. I am glad, I was apprehensive at first. I am so glad I let go of all the stress and worry from trying to force curriculum on my kids. We watch tv, play games, go on Myspace, and the park. My kids are pretty smart, and very energetic. They seem so happy now. I'm so glad I found out about unschooling. And I only have one other family here that unschools. The rest of the mothers seem a bit holier than thou, but it 's alright. I like the park days.
 
Steph in East TX




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The hard work of unschooling comes not only from the day to day
engagement with kids'
learning, but also (and this may be too big a hurdle for some)
because ultimately
unschooling asks us to confront the question 'What kind of person am
I?'-=-

Claire, thanks for this! I think it's that talk of the state and
nature of "being" that makes people so nervous. Talking about the
way they are is like religion or philosophy. It's on the spiritual
level, and it's hard to get to unschooling without going through
there somehow. I've seen some people try it for years, and their
kids aren't as happy and centered as some others.



Your list of principles is nice:


- my kids learn from my example
- my mothering instincts can be trusted
- I am guided by my love for my children
- unschooling is a continuum that can last a lifetime
- hard work in the early years is repaid many times over
- I am fallible just like everyone else but openness and reflection
can help me not to repeat
mistakes



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I spent a lot of yesterday playing on WoW. Linnaea was sitting next to
me on this computer and >Simon was on the couch on a different computer
and David was either in the study, outside >working on the car, or in
this room watching television. There wasn't a lot of engagement going
>on.

This whole last week, the kids have been sick, so I've been at the
computer a lot because everyone was inactive. However, I also made a
LOT of food for people, washed clothing, organized closets, picked up
toys, washed dishes, helped in beading projects, got out origami and
explored a lot of paper projects online, like paper bangers and
exploding straws.

I was constantly available to both my kids who were in seperate rooms
because neither of them felt good and couldn't agree on what to watch on
TV and didn't want to share the couch.

The thing is, it's not so different from any other day, which I'm
constantly available, just maybe less hop to, since they will do stuff
on their own accord knowing that I will help them get what they want if
they can't or don't want to.

>Toontown (which doesn't have as much available for non paying players
as it did a year ago)

We were just considering renewing one of our accounts because of that,
and it would've been a nice thing to do while not feeling well.

> Unschooling takes a near constant willingness to be interested in
whatever is going on. It >doesn't mean withholding judgement, but it may
mean delaying it, giving something a go and >not dismissing it out of
hand. I really like that aspect of unschooling. I really like having
"willing >to give it a go" as part of my job description.

That is exactly It! I never would have been involved in a Halloween
haunt production, if it hadn't been for Chamille's intense desire to do
it. That is the case a lot. One of my kids has an idea and rather than
dismissing it or finding reasons to NOT do it, we encourage it and find
ways TO do it.

Today, Chamille wants us out of the house so that she can do some video
making thing with a friend. John and I are taking Margaux to a movie to
make it happen. When I was a kid, that never would have been considered
a valid request, I would have been made to feel selfish if I'd even been
brave enough to ask in the first place. In fact, the dynamic of my
house, as a kid, being what it was, I probably wouldn't have even
considered this in the first place. The idea of it wouldn't have
occured to me. This is a big difference that I see in Chamille, her
thinking isn't defined by parental parameters in that manner, she thinks
big and offers suggestions that never would have occured to me.

Parents can cause "in the box" thinking or "in the parent approved box"
thinking. It stifles creative thinking and the generation and flow of
ideas.

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>make it happen. When I was a kid, that never would have been considered
a valid request, I would have been made to feel selfish if I'd even been
brave enough to ask in the first place. In fact, the dynamic of my
house, as a kid, being what it was, I probably wouldn't have even
considered this in the first place. The idea of it wouldn't have
occured to me. This is a big difference that I see in Chamille, her
thinking isn't defined by parental parameters in that manner, she thinks
>>big and offers suggestions that never would have occured to me.

yeah, i have also had some experiences of what i would consider "thinking small" leading to a snowballing of experiences - in the "if you give a moose a muffin" tradition. but none of it would have happened without responsiveness, and engagement on my part - which i am just recently really recognizing and developing...

for example, thursday night, i was showing my son (10) a web site of wolf haven, because i had just proposed going on a road trip with my kids there next week, when my husband is out of town. his first response was "no" (very common for him) but he was open to the notion of just going for the experience/adventure, even if the destination itself doesn't turn out to be facinating for him. so i was showing him some of hte sights we could see/experience along the way, and one was a cider press/farm. on that page, we saw a lovely color photo of fresh baked cinnamon rolls, which inspired a deep desire for one! i overcame my initial "it's dark, late, i don't want to go to the store just for that" feeling" and took him. he was elated, and remarked on the way out the door how nice i was to do so.

once there, i was looking in the baking aisle for citric acid to make bath bombs, and he saw the cake decorating supplies. it reminded him of a cake workshop he'd been involved in a few years back in school, and he said "i want to make a cake"

he has been at loose ends/bored/restless for a while so this was really cool, for him to choose something that inspired him. we got supplies.

the next day he was ready to make the cake, and we did - he did almost all of it himself, and was happy and easygoing about it (another accomplishment for him, as he tends to be very intense and easily stressed by collaborative work or focused projects that encounter snafoos or might.)

it came out great, and he was delighted with it. the final development from this experience was that he had been struggling with anxiety and stress around what he wanted to do for a unschoolers children's market event i am coordinating - and had decided it was too much for him and he would just be a customer and not have a booth. after the cake experience, i suggested that maybe he'd want to bake a cake and raffle it off and that was a VERY exciting idea for him - so now he has a plan for that as well.

so - a hankering for a cinnamon roll turned into a processional of experiences that contributed to his joy, learning, confidence, and peace!

warmly, Lyla

_,_._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I can still do other things once my focus has been
> directed toward them first, but if I do those things without my focus
> being first on my kids, then they end up not being in the equation.
> That alone is what allows me to be engaging with them, rather than
> seperate from them.
>
> -=-I'm having a hard time puting that in words.-=-
>
>
>
> I think we're talking about something people have never talked about
> before.
>
Yes--I think this is the crux of it right here. I believe that the ethic that we as adults need
to make decisions for our children is so strong that that is what stands in the way of
people getting unschooling. I think this is also why many people who are truly trying to
find partnership parenting, in trying to dislodge this thought from their brains, do the only
alternative that makes any sense at first, which is to then try to have the child make all the
decisions instead.

It's about still figuring out who will have control. When still in this paradigm, it seems like
power can't really be shared--someone must have 51%. So they try giving the 51% to their
child. I moved through a phase like this, and eventually I figured out how to move out of it
altogether, but I personally had to experience what it was like for me to give up "control"
to a child in order to find how to work together. Our cultural ideas about parenting are so
incredibly hierarchical that I think it's hard for people to see their way around it without
first running smack into it. Because we were all raised to be controlled in some way by
our parents. We all know how to be controlling or helpless, but not how to work in
partnership with a child.

I think many people get stuck in that dynamic, in either trying to make it work or feeling
that this isn't right either and give up. Partnering with our children is just not a reality that
most people have ever seen or heard of--it is a really different mindset that isn't
supported or modeled anywhere, except perhaps attachment parenting (I don't know for
sure because I didn't know about that until it was too late).

I think people try to do the "stuff" of unschooling and then call it unschooling even though
that isn't really it, because they either don't understand about the real shift that needs to
happen, or they just can't go there.

People who want to find this new place are all looking for a road map, but the destination
is hidden until you get there. I think that those of us who are involved in trying to help
other people find it are trying to find ways to better describe the destination.

(Sorry this got a little long)
Joanna

Jane Bertone

> What is really interesting to me is that I just told people almost the
> opposite the other day when I said that they need to focus on
> understanding the basic reasons for and principles of unschooling -
> that if they really grasp those, they won't have to decide whether or
> not to unschool,

I think part of it is that grasping "principles" wrt parenting has
often (historically?) been about acquiring a set of skills and tools
to, e.g., achieve discipline, or teach sharing, or something specific
(in mainstream parenting books etc.). And maybe people are in the
habit/custom of instituting a principle as if it were a timeout or a
gold star.

I think it's difficult for some of us to understand principles in the
broader context of a life changing, fundamental, who am I at heart
kind of thing. We have so long been trying to bend the spoon.

We juxtapose principles with rules and make simple differentiations to
replace the other with the one. I think this may sometimes downplay
the magnitude of the shift required. It's difficult to see that you
have to step into a whole new paradigm, *system* of thought; very much
like the Matrix, you didn't imagine it could be like that. You have
to realize that the spoon doesn't exist.

And then you realize that *being* interesting is indeed a principle.
It's about embracing LIFE, being alive, every minute, because you love
it and it's worth doing. And that any other choice that involves your
kids feels very near to choosing death.

And when you see that, this is true:

> they won't have to "pick" unschooling like they pick
> a new curriculum, it will be the only thing that makes sense to do,
> the only way they feel comfortable living.

To me, Pam and Sandra both describe the process clearly.

(Maybe this is easier to do based on certain circumstances. When the
concept of unschooling, or perhaps whole life learning, occurs to
people who have recently been shocked with the life-changing
experience of becoming a parent; maybe they are more ripe for the
unschooling Change. When you come to unschooling because schooling
and then homeschooling wasn't working for you, you may be more likely
to be gradually acquiring more and more sophisticated "tools". Yet
not really seeing (or wanting to see) the whole new world order, so to
speak.)

The other thing is that for many of us, being interesting has been
dangerous. You know, the whole school thing and all. I had a Russian
friend in college who would say to me, "So, Jaayyne, telll me, what do
you think?" And so often my answer would be, "I don't know."
"Jaayynne, what do you waant to do?" "I don't know." Eventually he
would just say it for me, "I know, I know: you donnn't knooowww",
teasing me. I would get incredibly frustrated and refuse to hang out
with him for a while because he was so rude and snobbish. He simply
valued interesting conversation and I was seriously lacking, afraid to
voice any thought or idea at all. It's taken me *years* to get to a
point where I value and know what *I* like. This seems pretty common
to me. And maybe this is the part that can actually be too difficult
to overcome or change.

BTW, this is my first post here. Hello! I have seen many of your
names on other lists and on the RUN. I doubt I'll be posting much
here. I just wanted to lurk and learn but I thought I might have
something useful to contribute on this thread. I'm mom to two bio
daughters, Selena and Samantha (4 and 2) and two step daughters,
Kelsey and Abbie (17 and 14). I'm married to Dean and we live in
Massachusetts.

Jane