yelenakaplan

Hi :)

My name is Yelena and I'm new to the list and not unschooling yet (two year old kiddo) but
am weeding my way through the archives and need some directions (think toddler in
unfamiliar environment type links?). Stella and I get along famously most of the time
except when we're around my and my husband's family, and some conventional friends
(those I can avoid though :). I find that being at their houses for extended periods of time
gets very stressful for her because there's a veiled undercurrent of "the kid's running a
muck and we (parents) aren't doing anything about it. We live on opposite coasts and
(typed a 'have to' here but deleted it ;)) spend chunks of time at their houses. Now since
it's grandparents we're talking about, they never just say 'no, I'd like her not to do that at
my house', they just say yes to whatever she requests and then give looks and sighs so I
know that it's not a good idea. It's as though they yes her just to see how demanding she
can get and then expect me to step in and tell her to cool it. My parents have mentioned
that they think she's spoiled, whiny, etc. She's super funny, smart, can negotiate her
needs and mine, sometimes while screaming, sometimes while whining. Sometimes she
just wants things her way just time to leave a store/eat (for me)/drive for a commitment
and then we get in trouble. I start finding myself telling her 'no this is not ok here, try
something else", and come up with ideas on how to involve her in something else.

My problem is that I end up playing catch up -- she senses that I'm trying to get her to
change direction and starts NOing ideas while I desperately try to come up with ways to
make her happy. Even in moments that we're not in the family members' presence we're
having disagreements about most mundane things, just because the precedent for
adversarial interaction has been set. Any suggestions are appreciated here -- how do you
navigate the 'outside' world?! I'm not trying to train her, I'm not trying make her behave a
certain way. I really am just looking for a way we can stay on (or close to) the happy
wavelength that we're on around unschoolers, all the while being around family.

Sandra, I read the thread about gravel and mulch and how throwing it is not ok cuz it
belongs to someone else -- so to me this is sort of a similar situation (other people's
homes, belongings, food, etc.) I just don't know how to approach this and what the
principal behind it is -- she's obviously not hurting anyone or herself, but I AM missing
something here and I can't put my finger on it...


Thanks!
Yelena

Sandra Dodd

-=-She's super funny, smart, can negotiate her
needs and mine, sometimes while screaming, sometimes while whining.-=-

I don't understand what "negotiate her needs and mine" means and
whether you think screaming and whining is a good thing.

If I say "screaming and whining mean she's unhappy," then I worry
that people reading might think I mean "do anything to stop the
screaming and whining," but what I mean is figure out at home, in
peaceful moments, why the communications aren't going better, and
improve that. Practice at home figuring out how to communicate
before the whining and screaming start--how to know they might be
coming and avoid them, or to help the child (even a young child)
express herself differently.

It won't always work, but if it *sometimes* works you're closer to
peace and social acceptability than if you don't even attempt it.

-=-Sometimes she just wants things her way just time to leave a store/
eat (for me)/drive for a commitment and then we get in trouble. -=-

Did you leave a word out?

-=-I start finding myself telling her 'no this is not ok here, try
something else", and come up with ideas on how to involve her in
something else. -=-

Why is that "in trouble"?

-=-Any suggestions are appreciated here -- how do you navigate the
'outside' world?! I'm not trying to train her, I'm not trying make
her behave a certain way.-=-

Be living in the outside world. Don't have one way of being for home
and another whole set of problems "outside." You don't have to
trying to make her behave in a certain way to be helping her
understand what ways are more acceptable to other people. I know
there are some unschoolers seeming to say say that children should
express themselves in whatever ways they want to while mother stand
by like serene cattle, but I think they're as wrong as can be. Being
a child's partner means helping them know what to do and how to be.

-=-she's obviously not hurting anyone or herself, but I AM missing
something here and I can't put my finger on it...-=-

Wy do you think it's not hurting anyone else for her to scream and
whine?

Why do you think it's not hurting her for other people to decide they
don't want to be around screaming and whining?

Maybe sometimes when people hear that a child shouldn't be punished
for screaming and whining, they jump to the opposite of that, and
think that children should be rewarded for screaming and whining (or
at least not discouraged from screaming and whining).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>Stella and I get along famously most of the time
> except when we're around my and my husband's family, and some
conventional friends
> (those I can avoid though :). I find that being at their houses for
extended periods of time
> gets very stressful for her because there's a veiled undercurrent of
"the kid's running a
> muck and we (parents) aren't doing anything about it.

My best suggestion is to continue getting along when you in other
places. The dynamics change in certain places, where the focus is on
adult interaction, but you don't have to let that happen. You can keep
the focus on your interaction with you child and poriferally interact
with the other adults. It could be as simple as sitting on the floor
with toys in front of you, rather than on the couch.

Take breaks from even being in the same room as all the adults, go for
quick walk abouts outside or to the kitchen to get drinks or snacks, or
to the bathroom and check out soap and lotion. Your parenting goal is
to NOT have a seen and not heard child, so don't fall into that scenario
that creates that. You can't have it both ways, you can't expect to
have a seen and not heard child and an active and ever present
interactiveness with your child.

> My parents have mentioned
> that they think she's spoiled, whiny, etc. She's super funny, smart,
can negotiate her
> needs and mine, sometimes while screaming, sometimes while whining.

Don't get to a point where there is screaming and whining. I do
understand that little ones get tired and overstimulated, especially in
large family gatherings, so expect to be on gaurd the WHOLE time,
creating breaks and down time in quiet rooms. If you are removing your
child from the room, other people won't see or hear her being whiney and
screaming. If you are in an enclosed quiet room, they won't know how
you are treating your child and there won't be any issues for them to
pick apart. What they'll see and know is that you are handling the
situation and that there isn't screaming and whining.

yelenakaplan

Disclosure: Russian is my first language so some Russian grammar and syntax still creep
into my writing on a regular basis. Think of the phrase: "you think I should what?!" and
you'll understand the run on sentences and overuse of pronouns. Hopefully I'm being
clearer this time...


Rephrase: -=-... tries to keep negotiating, sometimes while screaming, sometimes while
whining.-=-

What I should have said was: She still makes rational and logical arguments while
screaming and whining. She is attempting to explain her position while losing her cool at
the same time -- and I usually take her in the other room when she's obviously trying to
tell me something and it's not coming out quite as composed as others are used to. I do
see this as a good thing because she's *really* trying to get her point across.

<<If I say "screaming and whining mean she's unhappy," then I worry
that people reading might think I mean "do anything to stop the
screaming and whining," but what I mean is figure out at home, in
peaceful moments, why the communications aren't going better, and
improve that. >>.

I do a lot 'do anything to stop the screaming and whining', and am trying to break away
from that pattern. I also know why communications aren't going better in the case of
being around our family, I just haven't been able to come up with alternatives that
*always* -- she can't sleep around unfamiliar surroundings unless she's exhausted, she
gets overtired and the only way to calm her down is to leave the place we're at or go to a
private room and play there. She can't fall asleep even in the car most of the time unless
she's dead tired (evening time usually). Same goes for food -- I bring her the things she
usually likes to eat at home, but the M&M's and cookies and ice cream at grandma's call
her name much louder than any protein or veggies or fruit or chocolate from home. Then
she's overtired and hyper. Can I tell her 'not right now' on the sweets without stifling her?
My husband has the same issue at MIL's house and I remind them both that they'll feel like
crap afterwards but that doesn't stop either one of binging on the stuff.

Another thing is that she gets 'stuck' on a certain interaction. My grandma speaks only
Russian and Stella doesn't understand a word of what she says most of the time. My
grandma also asks a lot of questions. Questions + Stella usually = 'NO' so she's made
some association with my grandma and the word 'NO' even if a question is a harmless one
or there is no question at all. Whenever my grandma comes near her or tries to touch her
Stella yells "NO". I've asked my grandma politely to respect Stella's requests for space but
she has a short term memory issue and forgets. My dad gets mad at the kiddo for telling
my grandma no. Stella's trying to protect her space, my dad's trying to protect my
grandma's feelings and to me both are valid. Stella asks for me to take her to a quiet spot
to nurse which I do...

I could spend a visit in a room by myself with her (short bursts only help for a little while
and they work so we don't spend the *whole* day with them), but if we visit family that's
not an acceptable solution is it? Or is it? I'm really confused now... (I am still with said
family as we speak and a bit emotional about all this).

<< Practice at home figuring out how to communicate
before the whining and screaming start--how to know they might be
coming and avoid them, or to help the child (even a young child)
express herself differently.>>

Will do... Like I said at home things are easier and I can focus on prevention techniques,
maybe a play about grandma's house or something... (any other practical creative
suggestions?) We're obsessed with puppets over here :)

<<Why do you think it's not hurting anyone else for her to scream and whine?
>
> Why do you think it's not hurting her for other people to decide they
> don't want to be around screaming and whining?>>

I meant the things she does to warrant being called spoiled are things that aren't hurting
anyone or her. I think I cut and pasted the post a couple of times and that sentence ended
up in the wrong part of the paragraph.

What if they are not comfortable with her for walking up and down the stairs by herself
and she does it all the time at home? They get nervous and tell her not to or tell her to be
careful in an alarming voice, I tell them she does it all the time and they think I'm letting
her walk all over me? What if they are not comfortable with her eating desert before she's
had her dinner and I think it's fine and they think she's walking all over me? What if they
tell her *she* should pick up a mess but I think it's fine to do it for her and they think
she's walking all over me? That's the situation where I 'get in trouble' as in I don't know
what to do -- I start telling her no it's not ok to eat desert here first, no it makes grandma
nervous that she's walking up the stairs by herself, grandpa 'needs' her to pick up the
mess herself. (These are just examples, but very typical of the things I'm talking about)
Stella knows what she's capable of, she knows she has a sweet tooth and desert is more
appealing at the moment, and she is feeling hurt that her freedom is being taken away.
That's when she gets whiny and angry most -- the after effects of feeling this way last for
a while too, like I said she gets stuck in a dynamic for a while.

Do I just work on not feeling uncomfortable with their judging me for 'letting her get away
with stuff' or do I try and get her to eat desert after dinner and hold her hand up the
stairs, and talk her into cleaning up? Is there a middle ground? I still think in extremes
sometimes (any links you can think of on the websites?)


Thanks again :)

Yelena

p.s. please let me know if these issues are not unschooling issues and I'll try to post on
other groups -- so far this one has been the only no bs one where I can read clear, on
point answers and that's why I'm posting here first :)

Sandra Dodd

-=-please let me know if these issues are not unschooling issues and
I'll try to post on
other groups -- so far this one has been the only no bs one where I
can read clear, on
point answers and that's why I'm posting here first :)-=-

I don't mind, because if we're looking for the principles in what's
going on, it will help others who are reading too.

-=-Can I tell her 'not right now' on the sweets without stifling her?-=-

I brought this up above the rest of the paragraph.

I think the answer is "no." You could ask the grandma not to put
that all out, but I wouldn't. Let it be fun and exciting. Try to go
with the flow.

-=-Same goes for food -- I bring her the things she usually likes to
eat at home, but the M&M's and cookies and ice cream at grandma's
call her name much louder than any protein or veggies or fruit or
chocolate from home. Then she's overtired and hyper. -=-

Try not to blame sugar for "hyper." It's a bad, cheap trick. Anyone
can be on edge in a different place. And what's "overtired" got to
do with food? If she doesn't like to sleep in other places, that
would make her tired. If she's seeing things she's not used to, her
mind is running fast. That would make her tired. My kids were
always WAY more exhausted from mental exercise than physical.
Running and playing might not get them exhausted, but a day of
learning and seeing and meeting and thinking would zonk them out for
HOURS.

-=-My husband has the same issue at MIL's house and I remind them
both that they'll feel like crap afterwards but that doesn't stop
either one of binging on the stuff. -=-

Maybe telling them they'll feel like crap feels worse than the
aftereffects of eating M&Ms. And honestly, why would they binge? If
you had those things available at home, they wouldn't be a big draw
at the grandma's house.

-=-My dad gets mad at the kiddo for telling my grandma no. Stella's
trying to protect her space, my dad's trying to protect my grandma's
feelings and to me both are valid. -=-

You and Stella can protect her space without your accepting her
yelling no at old women.

-=-I could spend a visit in a room by myself with her (short bursts
only help for a little while

and they work so we don't spend the *whole* day with them), but if we
visit family that's
not an acceptable solution is it? Or is it? I'm really confused
now... (I am still with said
family as we speak and a bit emotional about all this). -=-

Not all day, no. But breaks once in a while to lie down and nurse?
Sure. A walk around the block? Maybe EVERYone could get out of the
house a couple of times a day to a place where your daughter could
run around. A food place with a playground. A park. Then she could
run and be cute in neutral territory.

-=-What if they are not comfortable with her for walking up and down
the stairs by herself and she does it all the time at home? They get
nervous and tell her not to or tell her to be careful in an alarming
voice, I tell them she does it all the time -=-

She doesn't "do it all the time." Those aren't your stairs. At my
house, I get to say who goes up and down my stairs. If you want her
on the stairs, be right there holding her hand, if they're nervous,
because it's their house and their stairs.

-=-What if they are not comfortable with her eating desert before
she's had her dinner and I think it's fine and they think she's
walking all over me?-=-

Then you're walking all over them. You can't go to someone else's
house and call all the shots. You can go and negotiate, or explain
what you're doing and why, or you could give her a snack.

And if she's been eating M&Ms and ice cream all day, why are you
defending dessert before dinner anyway?

-=-What if they tell her *she* should pick up a mess but I think it's
fine to do it for her and they think she's walking all over me?-=-

If it's really that bad, don't visit, or don't visit in their home.
Public places. You could help her clean the mess up. You can't
change them altogether. You could explain your thoughts when there's
not even a mess down, but you can't commandeer their whole house.

-=-and she is feeling hurt that her freedom is being taken away.

That's when she gets whiny and angry most -- the after effects of
feeling this way last for
a while too, like I said she gets stuck in a dynamic for a while.-=-

Why does she even SEE "dessert"? Do you "do dessert" at your
house? Why? We just don't. There are meals. And at the end of the
meal, that's the end of the meal. And somewhere in the house
there's undoubtedly cake or ice cream or something, but that's a
whole separate thing from meals. At the end of meals, kids aren't
expecting to get sweets, nor looking forward to sweets. That's a
conditioning thing, and a tradition of reward. I'd just avoid it
(but then I never started with it).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yelenakaplan

Thanks for clarifying all that, makes a lot of sense actually. Off to *not* walk all over my
in laws and parents and elderly grandma :) Leaving tomorrow and what a relief! I'll buy
Stella some M&M's and myself an organic version and we'll binge together!

<<Then you're walking all over them. You can't go to someone else's
> house and call all the shots. You can go and negotiate, or explain
> what you're doing and why, or you could give her a snack.>>

See? I wouldn't have though of it that way, but that's exactly how they see it I bet. I
thought my kid, my call... I'll stick to going with the flow -- I've got my hands full with my
deschooling, the kiddo, and keeping track of sanity. Explaining parenting my methods to
Russian grandparents (think 'cry it out' in a 4 week old) is going to have to come at a later
date :) They are actually a bit more enlightened than that now (Nikitin family lived off the
grid and my mom read about them when I was little) but the mentality is still there.

And while driving around today it dawned on me that while I thought I let go of all my
food issues -- obviously I'm not buying M&M's and cookies and if I did she wouldn't binge
on them at grandma's! Doi! (Stella's word) Reading your response was no surprise then :)
I thought -- she can have whatever she wants wherever she sees it, she hasn't asked me
to buy them -- but now I realize that she associates grandma's house with chinese food
(aka M&M's) and gets all bingy.

<<And if she's been eating M&Ms and ice cream all day, why are you
defending dessert before dinner anyway?>>

Different houses -- my parents no candy, no stairs, yelling at grandma... Inlaws -- when
it's dinner time they say 'you can have desert after dinner', before that it's a free for all!
Once dinner starts cooking it's off limits till dinner is done. It's the craziest thing I've ever
seen! I know, my issues, but I'm not surprised Stella's confused. She knows about desert
from going out to dinner with us and grandma asking her all excited like if she'd like some
-- she really thinks it's something special (grandma and by extension Stella).

Anyway, I know why I'm stressed now -- all the doing what feels yicky at other people's
houses, going against the flow. If it feels yicky, don't do it... and have some stuff to mull
over for next time (Feb).

While I'm at it though... A respect others' house question -- I bring my own food to my in
laws' house because otherwise I'd eat pizza pockets and miracle whip sandwiches -- is
that disrespectful? LOL :S Seriously -- I know my mil feels weird about it, she
understands that I grew up eating differently but still... We spend like 4 hours at a time
there and I get GRUMPY if I don't eat. and my milk supply kinda dwindles...

Thanks again, not crying anymore :) Mental fog has lifted for now.

Yelena




--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-please let me know if these issues are not unschooling issues and
> I'll try to post on
> other groups -- so far this one has been the only no bs one where I
> can read clear, on
> point answers and that's why I'm posting here first :)-=-
>
> I don't mind, because if we're looking for the principles in what's
> going on, it will help others who are reading too.
>
> -=-Can I tell her 'not right now' on the sweets without stifling her?-=-
>
> I brought this up above the rest of the paragraph.
>
> I think the answer is "no." You could ask the grandma not to put
> that all out, but I wouldn't. Let it be fun and exciting. Try to go
> with the flow.
>
> -=-Same goes for food -- I bring her the things she usually likes to
> eat at home, but the M&M's and cookies and ice cream at grandma's
> call her name much louder than any protein or veggies or fruit or
> chocolate from home. Then she's overtired and hyper. -=-
>
> Try not to blame sugar for "hyper." It's a bad, cheap trick. Anyone
> can be on edge in a different place. And what's "overtired" got to
> do with food? If she doesn't like to sleep in other places, that
> would make her tired. If she's seeing things she's not used to, her
> mind is running fast. That would make her tired. My kids were
> always WAY more exhausted from mental exercise than physical.
> Running and playing might not get them exhausted, but a day of
> learning and seeing and meeting and thinking would zonk them out for
> HOURS.
>
> -=-My husband has the same issue at MIL's house and I remind them
> both that they'll feel like crap afterwards but that doesn't stop
> either one of binging on the stuff. -=-
>
> Maybe telling them they'll feel like crap feels worse than the
> aftereffects of eating M&Ms. And honestly, why would they binge? If
> you had those things available at home, they wouldn't be a big draw
> at the grandma's house.
>
> -=-My dad gets mad at the kiddo for telling my grandma no. Stella's
> trying to protect her space, my dad's trying to protect my grandma's
> feelings and to me both are valid. -=-
>
> You and Stella can protect her space without your accepting her
> yelling no at old women.
>
> -=-I could spend a visit in a room by myself with her (short bursts
> only help for a little while
>
> and they work so we don't spend the *whole* day with them), but if we
> visit family that's
> not an acceptable solution is it? Or is it? I'm really confused
> now... (I am still with said
> family as we speak and a bit emotional about all this). -=-
>
> Not all day, no. But breaks once in a while to lie down and nurse?
> Sure. A walk around the block? Maybe EVERYone could get out of the
> house a couple of times a day to a place where your daughter could
> run around. A food place with a playground. A park. Then she could
> run and be cute in neutral territory.
>
> -=-What if they are not comfortable with her for walking up and down
> the stairs by herself and she does it all the time at home? They get
> nervous and tell her not to or tell her to be careful in an alarming
> voice, I tell them she does it all the time -=-
>
> She doesn't "do it all the time." Those aren't your stairs. At my
> house, I get to say who goes up and down my stairs. If you want her
> on the stairs, be right there holding her hand, if they're nervous,
> because it's their house and their stairs.
>
> -=-What if they are not comfortable with her eating desert before
> she's had her dinner and I think it's fine and they think she's
> walking all over me?-=-
>
>
> And if she's been eating M&Ms and ice cream all day, why are you
> defending dessert before dinner anyway?
>
> -=-What if they tell her *she* should pick up a mess but I think it's
> fine to do it for her and they think she's walking all over me?-=-
>
> If it's really that bad, don't visit, or don't visit in their home.
> Public places. You could help her clean the mess up. You can't
> change them altogether. You could explain your thoughts when there's
> not even a mess down, but you can't commandeer their whole house.
>
> -=-and she is feeling hurt that her freedom is being taken away.
>
> That's when she gets whiny and angry most -- the after effects of
> feeling this way last for
> a while too, like I said she gets stuck in a dynamic for a while.-=-
>
> Why does she even SEE "dessert"? Do you "do dessert" at your
> house? Why? We just don't. There are meals. And at the end of the
> meal, that's the end of the meal. And somewhere in the house
> there's undoubtedly cake or ice cream or something, but that's a
> whole separate thing from meals. At the end of meals, kids aren't
> expecting to get sweets, nor looking forward to sweets. That's a
> conditioning thing, and a tradition of reward. I'd just avoid it
> (but then I never started with it).
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joanna Murphy

> I meant the things she does to warrant being called spoiled are things that aren't
hurting
> anyone or her.

As I read through your posts I find myself thinking that perhaps in your effort to allow
your daughter to fully express who she is without compromise or judgement, you've gone
to an extreme. Maybe you were raised on the other end of the extreme, where it was hard
for you to express who you are, and you don't want your daughter to be stifled in the
same way? If that's true, then maybe your daughter is not getting the message of
compromise and care for others, and isn't being supported in how to act so that others
can interact with her positively.

I've realized that my daughter has such an extremely strong sense of herself that what she
needs more support with is how to compromise and empathize with others. There is no
fear that she will be weak and accommodating--it's just not in her makeup or her
upbringing! I used to be more concerned with making sure that she didn't have to
compromise "too much" but have realized that that thinking isn't really current or relevant
to who SHE is--it's more relevant to me! My MIL jokes about how it's o.k.--we can stop
her Assertiveness Training now. LOL

It seems like maybe there is some balance missing in the relationhip. If your family is
expressing that they think she is "spoiled," then they are observing something, and you
can either discount it (which may be warranted, I don't know) but may also serve as some
information you can use (if they are seeing something worth paying attention to) to help
you re-establish balance.

>
> Do I just work on not feeling uncomfortable with their judging me for 'letting her get
away
> with stuff' or do I try and get her to eat desert after dinner and hold her hand up the
> stairs, and talk her into cleaning up? Is there a middle ground? I still think in extremes
> sometimes (any links you can think of on the websites?)

I think there is a middle ground. It could be that your daughter is picking up on your
resistance to your family and that's why it takes her so long to get out of her bad mood,
and why she seems (from what you've said about not letting Grandma touch her) to be
fairly resistant to them. She is taking her cues about interacting with the family from you-
-you provide the context for her. So rather than focusing on who is going to "win" about
her behavior, you could focus on whether you are still feeling like the "little girl." It seems
like there might be a power struggle going on and your daughter is getting caught in the
middle, and is therefore not able to come to the situation with an open heart. If it's a
choice, she's siding with Mom--hands down.

I may be off-base--they were just some impressions that I got.

Joanna

yelenakaplan

Dead on :) You're the winner of the Gemini Cricket contest!!! LOL

Thanks!

Yelena
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
>
>
> > I meant the things she does to warrant being called spoiled are things that aren't
> hurting
> > anyone or her.
>
> As I read through your posts I find myself thinking that perhaps in your effort to allow
> your daughter to fully express who she is without compromise or judgement, you've
gone
> to an extreme. Maybe you were raised on the other end of the extreme, where it was
hard
> for you to express who you are, and you don't want your daughter to be stifled in the
> same way? If that's true, then maybe your daughter is not getting the message of
> compromise and care for others, and isn't being supported in how to act so that others
> can interact with her positively.
>
> I've realized that my daughter has such an extremely strong sense of herself that what
she
> needs more support with is how to compromise and empathize with others. There is no
> fear that she will be weak and accommodating--it's just not in her makeup or her
> upbringing! I used to be more concerned with making sure that she didn't have to
> compromise "too much" but have realized that that thinking isn't really current or
relevant
> to who SHE is--it's more relevant to me! My MIL jokes about how it's o.k.--we can stop
> her Assertiveness Training now. LOL
>
> It seems like maybe there is some balance missing in the relationhip. If your family is
> expressing that they think she is "spoiled," then they are observing something, and you
> can either discount it (which may be warranted, I don't know) but may also serve as
some
> information you can use (if they are seeing something worth paying attention to) to help
> you re-establish balance.
>
> >
> > Do I just work on not feeling uncomfortable with their judging me for 'letting her get
> away
> > with stuff' or do I try and get her to eat desert after dinner and hold her hand up the
> > stairs, and talk her into cleaning up? Is there a middle ground? I still think in
extremes
> > sometimes (any links you can think of on the websites?)
>
> I think there is a middle ground. It could be that your daughter is picking up on your
> resistance to your family and that's why it takes her so long to get out of her bad mood,
> and why she seems (from what you've said about not letting Grandma touch her) to be
> fairly resistant to them. She is taking her cues about interacting with the family from
you-
> -you provide the context for her. So rather than focusing on who is going to "win"
about
> her behavior, you could focus on whether you are still feeling like the "little girl." It
seems
> like there might be a power struggle going on and your daughter is getting caught in
the
> middle, and is therefore not able to come to the situation with an open heart. If it's a
> choice, she's siding with Mom--hands down.
>
> I may be off-base--they were just some impressions that I got.
>
> Joanna
>

yelenakaplan

<<If that's true, then maybe your daughter is not getting the message of
compromise and care for others, and isn't being supported in how to act so that others
can interact with her positively>>

And only cuz I've never seen it first hand so it's VERY difficult to model, support etc... My
husband and I have agreed that compromise is just when nobody gets what they want --
it's a running joke at our house cuz neither one of us has the actual concept down.
Sometimes I feel like I need a script but my drafts aren't cutting it. I say "Sammy doesn't
like it when you hurt her feelings" Stella says "but she does like it" (she is half kidding but
half not). I say "Don't hit the baby (not mine, I'd go nuts with two :)) and she says "but I
have to hit the baby". So I just make sure she doesn't get close enough to hit the baby
and that's about where it stalls out...

Also she's very little and we're very sarcastic and have a weird sense of humor at our
house. We kid around a lot and that doesn't translate into the outside world at all. I know
she's confused when something we laugh about at home is taken in a different way when
we're out.

Keep analyzing please :)

Yelena

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think there is a middle ground.-=-
Joanna wrote that and it reminds me of this article on balance which
might help:
http://sandradodd.com/balance

-=-Dead on :) You're the winner of the Gemini Cricket contest!!! -=-

Yelena liked what Joanna wrote too, but this is tie-in trivia. It's
Jiminy Cricket. He's not a two-faced Greek-based cricket, he's J.C.
Before the Disney Pinocchio movie ever came out, "Jiminy Cricket" was
a euphemism for "Jesus Christ." It was NOT okay for kids to say
"Jesus CHRIST!" but it was okay to say "Jiminy Cricket."

In the story, Jiminy Cricket is conscience and integrity. Gemini
and Janus and other dualism symbols are in a whole 'nother realm.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'll buy
Stella some M&M's and myself an organic version and we'll binge
together!-=-



Why binge?

Eat one. Eat it slowly. You might or might not want another one.
You could spit that first one out. Make every decision a real one.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sometimes I feel like I need a script but my drafts aren't cutting
it. I say "Sammy doesn't
like it when you hurt her feelings" Stella says "but she does like
it" (she is half kidding but
half not). I say "Don't hit the baby (not mine, I'd go nuts with
two :)) and she says "but I
have to hit the baby". So I just make sure she doesn't get close
enough to hit the baby
and that's about where it stalls out...-=-

Would you like for someone to say to you "Sammy doesn't like it when
you hurt her feelings"?

If your daughter is verbal and analytical enough to know what that
means, then she already knows about hurt feelings. You could say
"That wasn't nice." You could say "There were other things you could
have done."

What she does reflects on you. I think when she's old enough to
understand that, you could tell her so. What she does reflects on
her dad. If you're going to be part of her team, she should know
there's a team, not that she has a team of minders who make sure she
has the freedom to do whatever she damned well pleased no matter
where she is.



Maybe that's the bad message that's getting out elsewhere in the
unschooling world. Maybe some people are interpretting "be your
child's partner" to mean "get down there and be mean and selfish
together!"

-=-Also she's very little and we're very sarcastic -=-

The alarms went off at that one.

Sarcasm is funny sometimes. Some people get stuck there, and then
they're not fun to be around. It's cynicism and negativity turned to
humor, but it's still cynical and negative. Sarcasm isn't kindness.
It's not peace. It's not respect.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> Maybe that's the bad message that's getting out elsewhere in the
> unschooling world. Maybe some people are interpretting "be your
> child's partner" to mean "get down there and be mean and selfish
> together!"

ROFLMAO! I think you're right!

> Sarcasm is funny sometimes. Some people get stuck there, and then
> they're not fun to be around. It's cynicism and negativity turned to
> humor, but it's still cynical and negative. Sarcasm isn't kindness.
> It's not peace. It's not respect.
>
When my husband and I transitioned into a more kid friendly world we had to drop about
90% of it. Our kids--one of whom has always had a very sophisticated sense of humor--DID
NOT like it at all--they didn't have the more adult context of the world to "get it" and they
felt like we'd left them behind, or like we were having a joke at their expense, which, in a
way, we were.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-, or like we were having a joke at their expense, which, in a way,
we were. -=-


Sarcasm is always humor at someone's expense. It's always mean. I
used to have friends whose relationships with me were almost all
banter--we insulted each other often and well, but it gets old, and
it becomes nearly impossible to talk about anything of consequence.

I don't mind the idea of teasing and "smack talk" when the person
knows when to stop. It's like playing very roughly (slugging,
wrestling, bopping the backs of heads, poking, slapping), and
sometimes people can enjoy that in small doses too. But it needs to
be mutual and it can go from fun to NOT fun in half a second.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>
If your daughter is verbal and analytical enough to know what that
means, then she already knows about hurt feelings. You could say
"That wasn't nice." You could say "There were other things you could
have done.">>

I have been meaning to respond to this thread, and also the thread on
logical thinking and when that develops - and i have a question. my
understanding is that recent research has revealed that the frontal
lobe, which is responsible for "executive function", impulse control,
predictive skills, etc., does not reach maturity until sometime
between the ages of 14 and 31 YEARS of age. a young child, under this
model, possesses only a fraction of future capacity in these areas.

if this is true, then it seems to me that even saying "that wasn't
nice" is futile at best, and harmful at worst - futile because as much
as the child may learn and know that, they are neurologically
incapable, much of the time, of holding that in the "forefront" of
their mind and using it to make a decision - and harmful at worst
because if they really "did have to hit him" that might be their way
of saying that they had NO impulse control....and "that wasn't nice"
suddenly becomes, from the child's perspective "you aren't nice" -
does that make any sense to anyone else? it seems shaming and harsh
in light of assuming that they truly couldn't help it. so - if this
way of viewing a child's brain is correct, i would think that we, as
parents, need to be their "surrogate frontal lobe" - just as ross
greene talks about in "the explosive child" - except for kids who
aren't "explosive" but just developmentally unready for consistently
utilizing frontal lobe functions.

i would think we need to *prevent*, redirect, and avoid areas of
conflict and impulse that would be destructive, and if WE fail to
predict our child's actions (our frontal lobe at work!) then shaming
the child is useless and just that - shaming. i have actually seen
wonderful responses from the adult APOLOGZING to the child for not
getting there in time - to prevent the hit, to use OUR frontal lobe
capacity while the child's was undeveloped....because it doesn't feel
GOOD to a child to "lose control."

and if we are unable to do so -get there in time - or if we misguess
our child's reactions, it seems incumbent upon us to take
responsibility for that...

would others interpret this research/line of thinking differently?
here are a few articles that discuss it:
l.


http://www.turnthepage.com/upload/397.pdf
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/teenage-brain-a-work-in-progress.shtml
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a783682797~db=all

looking forward to thoughts on this!

warmly, Lyla

Sandra Dodd

-=-if this is true, then it seems to me that even saying "that wasn't
nice" is futile at best, and harmful at worst - futile because as much
as the child may learn and know that, they are neurologically
incapable, much of the time, of holding that in the "forefront" of
their mind and using it to make a decision - and harmful at worst
because if they really "did have to hit him" that might be their way
of saying that they had NO impulse control....and "that wasn't nice"
suddenly becomes, from the child's perspective "you aren't nice" --=-

No, if a child is able to say she "did have to hit him" she can
understand making a decision not to.

It's not nice to pinch a cat or scratch a baby. It's not nice for a
parent to pretend it IS nice (or acceptable behavior).

-=-i would think we need to *prevent*, redirect, and avoid areas of
conflict and impulse that would be destructive, and if WE fail to
predict our child's actions (our frontal lobe at work!) then shaming
the child is useless and just that - shaming.-=-

"Not nice" isn't shaming. It's "You had a choice and might make a
better one next time."

-=-i have actually seen wonderful responses from the adult APOLOGZING
to the child for not getting there in time - to prevent the hit, to
use OUR frontal lobe capacity while the child's was
undeveloped....because it doesn't feel GOOD to a child to "lose
control."-=-

It doesn't feel good for a young child who IS pretty swift in inter-
and intra-personal intelligences to see a mother falling over herself
apologizing to a child for not being physically there to prevent her
from needing to learn to think, either. It says to a child "Nothing
is your fault," and that's a very bad message to send. That mother
could die today, and what tools will the child have to behave
thoughtfully?



-=-my understanding is that recent research has revealed that the
frontal lobe, which is responsible for "executive function", impulse
control, predictive skills, etc., does not reach maturity until
sometime between the ages of 14 and 31 YEARS of age.-=-

I don't doubt the 31 years thing. I have had adult students for
years, learning in one-on-one and small-group ways how to be virtuous
and honorable adults, and many times the breakthrough comes at the
age of 30. I announced about ten years ago that I would never take
another student under the age of 30, and one 25 year old made some
noise about it, and when she was 30 came back and apologized.

I never said I wouldn't bother to discuss better and worse choices
with my children before they were 30. There are teens in prison as
adults. My kids are so far not even nearly among them, and there are
reasons for that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan" <kaplanyel@...> wrote:
>
> <<If that's true, then maybe your daughter is not getting the message of
> compromise and care for others, and isn't being supported in how to act so that others
> can interact with her positively>>
>
> And only cuz I've never seen it first hand so it's VERY difficult to model, support etc... My
> husband and I have agreed that compromise is just when nobody gets what they want -

It seems like your daughter is reflecting this belief. The useful, take-away message that I got
from Non-Violent Communication is that if you believe that all of our needs matter then you
can problem solve in such a way as to get everyone's needs met--which is different than
compromise. But the initial belief sets the stage for how you act. For example, if you believe
that compromise means that you will not ever get what you want, then you aren't very likely
to help your daughter engage in compromise.

Maybe it's not good to agree on ideas that will limit your life, and consequently limit your
daughter's life.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe it's not good to agree on ideas that will limit your life,
and consequently limit your
daughter's life.-=-



Good point.

We don't think of it as "compromise" here, but as consideration and
generosity. When the priorities are known (at our house, happiness
and learning) then when there's a conflict, the thing that leads more
toward learning or fulfilling obligations (kids being at work on
time, getting purchases to the post office) or things that lead to
more peace will get the first car keys and money. Other things can
wait.

When the kids were babies, we tried to make them comfortable. In no
time at all, we started seeing them trying to make other people
comfortable, too.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>No, if a child is able to say she "did have to hit him" she can
understand making a decision not to.





i don't know if that is necessarily true - after the fact explainations of what happened are different than using impulse control and predictive skills before....




>It's not nice to pinch a cat or scratch a baby. It's not nice for a
parent to pretend it IS nice (or acceptable behavior).





yeah, i wasn't suggesting pretending it was nice, i was just throwing around the idea that saying "that hurts" is a more accurate assessment of WHY it isn't nice, and not judging a child for their lack of brain development.....




>> "Not nice" isn't shaming. It's "You had a choice and might make a
better one next time."





well - yes, if you believe they really had a choice. if one believes that they didn't have the impulse control, (which you say above you don't - but let's say at SOME age they don't - let's a say a kid who doesn't say "i had to" but jus dose it and then runs off) then perhaps a vote of confidence that they WILL eventually be able to control themselves is life serving, along the same lines, and doesn't suggest taht they had a choice but made the "wrong" one, even if they didn't have a real choice?





-=-i have actually seen wonderful responses from the adult APOLOGZING
to the child for not getting there in time - to prevent the hit, to
use OUR frontal lobe capacity while the child's was
undeveloped....because it doesn't feel GOOD to a child to "lose
control."-=-

>>It doesn't feel good for a young child who IS pretty swift in inter-
and intra-personal intelligences to see a mother falling over herself
apologizing to a child for not being physically there to prevent her
from needing to learn to think, either. It says to a child "Nothing
is your fault," and that's a very bad message to send. That mother
could die today, and what tools will the child have to behave
thoughtfully?>




but if a child is *developmentally* incapable of impulse control, due to the limitations of their brain and its development - they *won't* have tools whether mother is dead or alive. that's like saying, in my opinion, that we shouldn't co-sleep with a child because what if mom died - how woudl they ever get to bed by themselves? i have heard many people say that actually...





i don't think it necesarily has to say nothing is your fault, nor do we have to say "that is your responsibility/fault" - it seems to me like yet another opportunity, which unschooling is so full of - to partner with our kids - to KNOW wht they are and arent capable of - and to *trust* that they will get there...





Lyla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-i don't know if that is necessarily true - after the fact
explainations of what happened are different than using impulse
control and predictive skills before.... -=-

Yes. But they're BEFORE the next time. Waiting until it happens
each time and then deciding not to discuss it because the child is
too young isn't as good as discussing how to begin to decide how to
act. Some kids aren't able to think about such things. The child in
this scenario seems to be discussing it pretty clearly.

-=-yeah, i wasn't suggesting pretending it was nice, i was just
throwing around the idea that saying "that hurts" is a more accurate
assessment of WHY it isn't nice, and not judging a child for their
lack of brain development..... -=-

The kid knew it hurt. Doing something when you know it will hurt
isn't nice. It's beyond the hurt to intention and motivation. It
wasn't an accident.

-=-then perhaps a vote of confidence that they WILL eventually be
able to control themselves is life serving, along the same lines, and
doesn't suggest taht they had a choice but made the "wrong" one, even
if they didn't have a real choice? -=-

Why wait for someday and eventually when the child has another chance
to do better days or hours or moments later?

-=-but if a child is *developmentally* incapable of impulse control,
due to the limitations of their brain and its development - they
*won't* have tools whether mother is dead or alive. -=-

Yes. Let's not treat all children like a point on a curve, assuming
that they don't understand us so we might as well not try to
communicate.

Some children will NEVER understand language, and that's very
unfortunate. Some might understand it and never have the physical
or mental ability to use it in return.
We've been talking about a young child who is very verbal. How did
she get verbal? Probably her parents were talking to her even
before she could understand the words. We don't wait until children
are old enough to speak to talk to them. We don't need to wait until
they're old enough to be analytical about emotions to talk about
emotions to them. We don't need to wait until they have reached
anyone's definition of the age of accountability to talk to them
about accountability (not in those terms, but in simple terms).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

We don't wait until children
> are old enough to speak to talk to them. We don't need to wait until
> they're old enough to be analytical about emotions to talk about
> emotions to them. We don't need to wait until they have reached
> anyone's definition of the age of accountability to talk to them
> about accountability (not in those terms, but in simple terms).

Right--for me this is an important point. This stuff on brain development, while valuable
for its information about the generalities of development, can mistakenly (IMHO) imply
that there is some magic point where the ability is there and then that's when a person is
accountable. That just doesn't match my own experience of how people learn and
develop.

A child doesn't wait to walk until they can--they go through all the steps, spending a long
time on some steps, flying through others, skipping others entirely, until the day that they
take their first step. Growth is happening, learning is happening. Brain, body, emotions,
abilities are all changing and expanding every day, and connected parents are responding
to what is going on right now--not in a hypothetical world.

Just because an area of the brain isn't the primary area being used doesn't mean it is dead
until the switch goes on. I'm imagining that connections would be forming, systems
would be in a state of flux as input comes in, and that there would be processes whereby
a person would be testing which response gets which reaction, and those responses are
coming from different places--for example, if I hit, which feels easy, natural and
instinctive I get this reaction. If I walk away, then this happens. If I say, "No," then
something else happens. If I ask, "Please," which may be more difficult to pull off at first,
then something different happens. We have a range available even before one set course
of action is consistently chosen.

Joanna

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:

> recent research has revealed that the frontal
> lobe, which is responsible for "executive function", impulse control,
> predictive skills, etc., does not reach maturity until sometime
> between the ages of 14 and 31 YEARS of age. a young child, under this
> model, possesses only a fraction of future capacity in these areas.

What stimulates the development of those "executive function" skills.
Why are they highly developed by 14 in some people and seemingly never
developed in others?

To say a child has only a fraction of their future capacity isn't to
say that they have no capacity and it certainly isn't to say that they
have no capacity to learn.

I have a daughter who will turn 24 in a couple of weeks. I've watched
her develop a LOT of impulse control over just the past year. But
that doesn't mean she had NO ability to develop impulse control 20
years ago, when she was only 4 years old.

Knowing that these executive functions are still developing is
encouraging to parents, I think, since it means the kids are "still
learning" - that's nice to know when your kid makes lousy decisions.
And it is good to have reasonable expectations about our children's
abilities, of course. I mean, those who swat little babies because
kicking and squirming during diaper changes shows they are being
rebellious could benefit by knowing that those babies aren't even
cognitively capable of that kind of thinking. "Ages and stages"
literature is available and useful for parents who aren't sure what is
reasonable to expect.

-pam

prism7513

>
> I don't doubt the 31 years thing. I have had adult students for
> years, learning in one-on-one and small-group ways how to be virtuous
> and honorable adults, and many times the breakthrough comes at the
> age of 30. I announced about ten years ago that I would never take
> another student under the age of 30, and one 25 year old made some
> noise about it, and when she was 30 came back and apologized.

Hmmm. That gives me hope - this is my 31st year that I'm living in
currently :) The more I read here, the more I get discouraged for
falling short, then encouraged for "getting it" a little more, then
back and forth again. I keep trying to stay positive that eventually
something will click, or little by little more is sinking in. That
little voice tells me "each little step in the right direction is
progress" but it's still hard to see the mistakes I make, too.

Deb

yelenakaplan

<<The kid knew it hurt. Doing something when you know it will hurt
isn't nice. It's beyond the hurt to intention and motivation. It
wasn't an accident.>>

Just want to chime in again -- been busy traveling and unpacking and
so have had no time to respond to all the ideas here. We're back
from the family visit and working our way back to balance. My
husband actually said to me that he can tell I've been around my
family from the way I'm dealing with Stella right now.

Anyhoo, the kid *does* know that it hurts and she plays little puppet
games where one puppet hits the other one, the other one cries and
she does the same 'i have to hit you' and then makes them feel better
bit every time. It had never occured to me to *ask her* what else
she can do in the situation. I always *told* her that she can hit
other things, but the telling turned her off the idea. Yesterday we
played at our friend's house and I told her before we got there that
even though she may *need* to hit and scream at her friend when we
get there (it's happened before and like I said she gets stuck in
some interactions, I wasn't just being pessimistic) we've got to find
another way to deal with it. Her friend did get whacked with a brush
(hairdresser was having a tough moment :) but then I reminded Stella
that she can choose to do something else. *She* suggested hitting
and pushing a Dora doll and we did that for a good 15 minutes before
everything calmed down to the point where the kids could play
together again without fighting. I still have to get physically
involved, but hopefully after employing these ideas it will become
less frequent.

Also, not that I have to reiterate, but these episodes are not the
norm for us, only in stressful/tired states does she lash out, and
usually only when I'm around her. She's very polite in public and
almost eerily (if we're talking about kids being developmentally at a
certain point) capable of holding a conversation with an adult. If
I'm not in the room, she uses her communication/social 'fitting in'
skills more efficiently then when I'm with her. She knows that if
I'm not there to help her figure things out it's better to take the
safe route. The problem really is my rebellious vibes I think :)

The good news is I'm missing little pieces and that's what I'm here
for -- to fill in the gaps in my understanding of how to deal with
people, little and big.

Thanks again for your insights!

Yelena


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-i don't know if that is necessarily true - after the fact
> explainations of what happened are different than using impulse
> control and predictive skills before.... -=-
>
> Yes. But they're BEFORE the next time. Waiting until it happens
> each time and then deciding not to discuss it because the child is
> too young isn't as good as discussing how to begin to decide how
to
> act. Some kids aren't able to think about such things. The child
in
> this scenario seems to be discussing it pretty clearly.
>
> -=-yeah, i wasn't suggesting pretending it was nice, i was just
> throwing around the idea that saying "that hurts" is a more
accurate
> assessment of WHY it isn't nice, and not judging a child for their
> lack of brain development..... -=-
>
> The kid knew it hurt. Doing something when you know it will hurt
> isn't nice. It's beyond the hurt to intention and motivation. It
> wasn't an accident.
>
> -=-then perhaps a vote of confidence that they WILL eventually be
> able to control themselves is life serving, along the same lines,
and
> doesn't suggest taht they had a choice but made the "wrong" one,
even
> if they didn't have a real choice? -=-
>
> Why wait for someday and eventually when the child has another
chance
> to do better days or hours or moments later?
>
> -=-but if a child is *developmentally* incapable of impulse
control,
> due to the limitations of their brain and its development - they
> *won't* have tools whether mother is dead or alive. -=-
>
> Yes. Let's not treat all children like a point on a curve,
assuming
> that they don't understand us so we might as well not try to
> communicate.
>
> Some children will NEVER understand language, and that's very
> unfortunate. Some might understand it and never have the
physical
> or mental ability to use it in return.
> We've been talking about a young child who is very verbal. How
did
> she get verbal? Probably her parents were talking to her even
> before she could understand the words. We don't wait until
children
> are old enough to speak to talk to them. We don't need to wait
until
> they're old enough to be analytical about emotions to talk about
> emotions to them. We don't need to wait until they have reached
> anyone's definition of the age of accountability to talk to them
> about accountability (not in those terms, but in simple terms).
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Her friend did get whacked with a brush
(hairdresser was having a tough moment :) -=-

The smiley disturbs me, if it was a smiley and not just the end of
parentheses.

I wouldn't want my kids to be whacked with a brush by ANYone.



-=-Her friend did get whacked with a brush (hairdresser was having a
tough moment :) but then I reminded Stella that she can choose to do
something else. -=-

If you worded that way, it sounds like it was okay for her to choose
to whack.

If a teen or adult whacked me or my kids with a brush, I could call
the police.

-=-*She* suggested hitting and pushing a Dora doll and we did that
for a good 15 minutes before everything calmed down to the point
where the kids could play together again without fighting.-=-

I hope the Dora doll belonged to her and not to the friend.

She was still hitting. If her choices are between hitting a human
and the effigy of a human, she's still a person who hits.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yelenakaplan

Rephrase at the end of sentense:

<<Also, not that I have to reiterate, but these episodes are not the
norm for us, only in stressful/tired states does she lash out, and it's
usually only when I'm around her and *we're with other people in their
homes*>>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 11, 2008, at 8:30 AM, yelenakaplan wrote:

> Also, not that I have to reiterate, but these episodes are not the
> norm for us, only in stressful/tired states does she lash out, and
> usually only when I'm around her.

I'm surprised that you still have other families who want to hang out
with her. Or at least you and her, together. I know my kids wouldn't
want to keep hanging out with another child who lashed out physically
more than a time or two.

You seem to be aware of what leads up to her lashing out. Do you not
notice the stress building up in time to intervene before the lashing
out takes place? Are you helping her recognize the signs, in advance,
so that she can have more self-awareness. When she is aware that her
own stress level is building up, there are lots of things she can do
(and I'm talking about things other than beating on some alternative
to the other child, which, yeah, is better than beating on her friend,
but still means she's gotten to a very extreme point). Why don't you
and she together talk about how she's feeling BEFORE she explodes -
and then come up with some things to do when she's starting to have
those feelings - breathe deeply, go to the bathroom, go get a drink of
water, calmly express the feelings verbally, get help with whatever is
frustrating her - ask an adult for help or even her friend.

I'm confused about why she's doing this only when you're present. Are
you sure about that? Have you asked her why that is?

-pam

Margaret

One thing I really try to do with my kids is help them with tools to
deal with situations like that. The ones we have talked about most
are verbal (asking for space and *me* keeping a sharp ear out for it -
HUGE part of it) and breathing deeply. Breathing deeply has mostly
been from me talking about how I'm frustrated and need to calm down
and *me* doing it. My daughter (5) has started using it too. We've
also started talking about drinking a glass of water to calm down -
something that works well for me. The idea came from my grandmother
who found it helpful with her children. I also like to be by myself
for a couple minutes if I am frustrated. I talk about it with them.

I have not encouraged them to beat up dolls or toys. Honestly, I
think it is very threatening. If an adult got really mad at me and
starting hitting the wall, a toy, etc. I would find it frightening and
threatening. Asking for space, saying no (nicely, if possible),
breathing... I think those are good peaceful tools. Beating the crap
out of a doll doesn't seem like a great tool, although it is better
than hitting the friend. I think that focusing on different tools
would be even better.

fwiw - my daughter is a little older, but my son is about your
daughter's age. We started talking about "space" before he was two
and he was using it regularly by then. I figured that with two of
them, conflict was going to happen and I wanted to make sure they had
some tools to deal with things in a better way than hitting and
scraming. "Space" worked very well for us. The other ones are
starting to help too.

Margaret


On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:30 AM, yelenakaplan <kaplanyel@...> wrote:
> <<The kid knew it hurt. Doing something when you know it will hurt
> isn't nice. It's beyond the hurt to intention and motivation. It
> wasn't an accident.>>
>
> Just want to chime in again -- been busy traveling and unpacking and
> so have had no time to respond to all the ideas here. We're back
> from the family visit and working our way back to balance. My
> husband actually said to me that he can tell I've been around my
> family from the way I'm dealing with Stella right now.
>
> Anyhoo, the kid *does* know that it hurts and she plays little puppet
> games where one puppet hits the other one, the other one cries and
> she does the same 'i have to hit you' and then makes them feel better
> bit every time. It had never occured to me to *ask her* what else
> she can do in the situation. I always *told* her that she can hit
> other things, but the telling turned her off the idea. Yesterday we
> played at our friend's house and I told her before we got there that
> even though she may *need* to hit and scream at her friend when we
> get there (it's happened before and like I said she gets stuck in
> some interactions, I wasn't just being pessimistic) we've got to find
> another way to deal with it. Her friend did get whacked with a brush
> (hairdresser was having a tough moment :) but then I reminded Stella
> that she can choose to do something else. *She* suggested hitting
> and pushing a Dora doll and we did that for a good 15 minutes before
> everything calmed down to the point where the kids could play
> together again without fighting. I still have to get physically
> involved, but hopefully after employing these ideas it will become
> less frequent.
>
> Also, not that I have to reiterate, but these episodes are not the
> norm for us, only in stressful/tired states does she lash out, and
> usually only when I'm around her. She's very polite in public and
> almost eerily (if we're talking about kids being developmentally at a
> certain point) capable of holding a conversation with an adult. If
> I'm not in the room, she uses her communication/social 'fitting in'
> skills more efficiently then when I'm with her. She knows that if
> I'm not there to help her figure things out it's better to take the
> safe route. The problem really is my rebellious vibes I think :)
>
> The good news is I'm missing little pieces and that's what I'm here
> for -- to fill in the gaps in my understanding of how to deal with
> people, little and big.
>
> Thanks again for your insights!
>
> Yelena
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-i don't know if that is necessarily true - after the fact
>> explainations of what happened are different than using impulse
>> control and predictive skills before.... -=-
>>
>> Yes. But they're BEFORE the next time. Waiting until it happens
>> each time and then deciding not to discuss it because the child is
>> too young isn't as good as discussing how to begin to decide how
> to
>> act. Some kids aren't able to think about such things. The child
> in
>> this scenario seems to be discussing it pretty clearly.
>>
>> -=-yeah, i wasn't suggesting pretending it was nice, i was just
>> throwing around the idea that saying "that hurts" is a more
> accurate
>> assessment of WHY it isn't nice, and not judging a child for their
>> lack of brain development..... -=-
>>
>> The kid knew it hurt. Doing something when you know it will hurt
>> isn't nice. It's beyond the hurt to intention and motivation. It
>> wasn't an accident.
>>
>> -=-then perhaps a vote of confidence that they WILL eventually be
>> able to control themselves is life serving, along the same lines,
> and
>> doesn't suggest taht they had a choice but made the "wrong" one,
> even
>> if they didn't have a real choice? -=-
>>
>> Why wait for someday and eventually when the child has another
> chance
>> to do better days or hours or moments later?
>>
>> -=-but if a child is *developmentally* incapable of impulse
> control,
>> due to the limitations of their brain and its development - they
>> *won't* have tools whether mother is dead or alive. -=-
>>
>> Yes. Let's not treat all children like a point on a curve,
> assuming
>> that they don't understand us so we might as well not try to
>> communicate.
>>
>> Some children will NEVER understand language, and that's very
>> unfortunate. Some might understand it and never have the
> physical
>> or mental ability to use it in return.
>> We've been talking about a young child who is very verbal. How
> did
>> she get verbal? Probably her parents were talking to her even
>> before she could understand the words. We don't wait until
> children
>> are old enough to speak to talk to them. We don't need to wait
> until
>> they're old enough to be analytical about emotions to talk about
>> emotions to them. We don't need to wait until they have reached
>> anyone's definition of the age of accountability to talk to them
>> about accountability (not in those terms, but in simple terms).
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have not encouraged them to beat up dolls or toys. Honestly, I
think it is very threatening. If an adult got really mad at me and
starting hitting the wall, a toy, etc.-=-

That happened at a party my kids were at at another friend's house.
Someone who was primarily my friend, 30ish, was at this party. He
was probably the oldest one there. Many were mid-20's. At some
point he started to feel frustrated about having misunderstood a
social situation (wanting to protect Holly from something she didn't
need to be protected from) and he started hitting the front door,
with his fists, from the inside. They had been playing a drinking
game and he had "won." (Not a good plan, overall.) So Marty called
me and asked me to go and pick him up, and I did.

Hitting the door was better than hitting a person, and better than
stumbling out into the dark and trying to walk somewhere. But
hitting the door was not good. It wasn't his door. Doors are
important and shouldn't be broken. And any male of any species
performing repeated shows of strength is probably going to be
perceived as a danger or a threat. (Not just male, I guess.)

-=-We started talking about "space" before he was two and he was
using it regularly by then. I figured that with two of them, conflict
was going to happen and I wanted to make sure they had some tools to
deal with things in a better way than hitting and screaming
(screaming, right?). "Space" worked very well for us. The other ones
are starting to help too.-=-

One of Kirby's irritating things, when he was young, wasn't hitting,
but it was being more talkative and attention-getting than other
kids. He could steal the spotlight without meaning to, and at
something like a birthday party that's *very* rude. The term I used
with him was "Don't breathe more than your share of the air." And as
he got older, sometimes I would ask him to make sure that the guest
of honor, or someone there from out of town, or someone who had
recently had a disappointment of some sort, would be comfortable and
get attention. So he would use some of the attention-getting power
he had and redirect it toward someone else. It wasn't like he had
the responsibility to make someone else happy, but it was a way for
him to remember, when the irresistable urge came to say or do
something notable, that he wasn't the guest of honor.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yelenakaplan

<< I'm surprised that you still have other families who want to hang out
with her. Or at least you and her, together. I know my kids wouldn't
want to keep hanging out with another child who lashed out physically
more than a time or two.>>

They keep hanging out with us because the kids have fun together and I get along with
their moms and because it doesn't happen more than a time or two with any particular
family. And it doesn't happen with most everyone we know. Once I know what triggers it
in a particular dynamic I can prevent it and/or not go over their house if it's an
incompatibility issue. What I haven't been able to do is predict the trigger in new
situations with new kids.

<<You seem to be aware of what leads up to her lashing out. Do you not
notice the stress building up in time to intervene before the lashing out takes place? Are
you helping her recognize the signs, in advance, so that she can have more self-
awareness.>>

Most of the time I am, but sometimes I don't know why she does it -- she can't tell me
anything other than that her friend likes it. She is embarrassed to talk about it, looks down
and can't explain what makes her do it. I haven't talked to her about being aware of the
stress ahead of time and coming up with other alternatives to handling it -- I honestly
haven't even though that she might know that it's happening. I viewed it as typical
impulsive toddler behavior and thought that she would grow out of it. She's been hit and
yelled at by other toddlers when I wasn't near her and that's when her lashing out started
(not as a direct retaliation, but at a later date) I haven't seen much evidence that we're
going through something out of the ordinary and I suspect she thinks that's how things
roll? I hate it, I wish she never experienced it, it bothers me to no end that I haven't been
able to stop it from happening again and that's why I posted it here. How can I explain to
her that other kids hit but that she shouldn't?

I've been operating under the wrong assumption that if a kid is angry, they need to get
that out -- don't hit your friend, hit a pillow instead (I think it's in How To Talk So Kids
Will Listen). I'm happy to see that there are other alternatives, honestly I wouldn't have
come up with those on my own right now because the only thought that's running through
my head is "why?" Why does she feel threatened enough to hit? What did I do as her mom
to make her feel that scared to be out in the world? I thought I did good last night (yes, it
was the other kiddo's Dora I'm sorry to say... we didn't bring any toys with us) but I guess
I've still got a lot to work on.

<< I'm confused about why she's doing this only when you're present. Are
> you sure about that? Have you asked her why that is?>>

I don't know why for sure. Sometimes I think it's because she feels that I'll bring her out
of harm's way if the other kid was to hit her. I do know that she's been in a situations (3
or 4) where other kids literally ripped things out of her hands while I wasn't within
intervention distance and she didn't do anything to retaliate, she just tries to reason with
them and then cries because they don't listen. I also know that it takes her about a month
after being in a situation where she got hit/pushed/disrespected by a kid to come back to
normal, not 'on high alert' self. Would it make sense to keep her out of social situations
after such an encounter for a while?

If I'm out of sight (like in the next room or hallway) she'll do everything in her power to
use her words and tells the other kids that they can take turns, she's not done yet, they
can have something else, etc... She can play for an hour or more if I'm just around the
corner and not in the room. I notice that if I'm hovering over her because I'm afraid she'll
do something by accident and or on purpose, she does something on purpose almost for
sure. That's what happened last night -- I was afraid she'd pull her friend's hair while
brushing it and I kept telling her to be careful. I think she got mad at me and whacked her
friend. I guess instead of hovering I should have taken her to another room -- she was
very tired and I should have known better.

Anyhoo, off to cry myself to sleep on my huge pillah...

Will do more soul searching/reading tomorrow.

Thank you :)

Yelena