Sandra Dodd

-=-She's not really concerned about her
history knowledge, and has only recently wondered why people even want
or need to know history. That was a pretty interesting discussion.-=-

I brought this from another topic.

NObody "knows history" in a knows-everything-about-history way.
Everyone knows more history than they think they do.

I hope the interesting discussion referred to didn't involve the idea
of "know history" in classroom kinds of ways.



http://sandradodd.com/history



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> NObody "knows history" in a knows-everything-about-history way.

That is almost exactly what I told her! I told her about my interest in
various points in history and why I find them interesting and how I came
to find it interesting.

My initial response was "what are we talking here, history of the world,
history of the US, history of our state, history of China, Europe, and
how far back do we go?"


> Everyone knows more history than they think they do.

That was the majority of the discussion, how people absorb ideas of the
past in, just by living. Somehow she came to understand that "history"
was knowing dates and such, probably like one of her friends was
learning in school. Which is so NOT knowing about the past and where we
come from.

> I hope the interesting discussion referred to didn't involve the idea
> of "know history" in classroom kinds of ways.

Well partly yes, because she wanted to know why schools made such a big
deal about it. The conversation continued into how real history is
compared to date memorization, etc etc, then we talked about various
reasons why schools make a big deal of it, like knowing the past can
help people to not repeat their mistakes. I also told her about how I
never made real historical connections until I was an adult and started
reading a lot of historical fiction, which is probably my favorite
genre.

It was an interesting discussion because ultimately she sees everything
in connection with everything else. She really didn't understand why
history was made into such a big deal in schools because it really is
all around us. The whole idea of "history" was a bit of a mystery for
her. So when she understood what it was that schools did with history,
it seemed to clear up some confusions in her own mind about the whole
concept of history/passing of time vs. history as a subject to be
taught.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I also told her about how I
never made real historical connections until I was an adult and started
reading a lot of historical fiction, which is probably my favorite
genre.-=-

When computer games were new things, the kids had some educational
computer game about paintings and sculpture. It was a museum mystery
game. One of the paintings we needed clues from was some guys on a
boat, and we were supposed to identify the period of the painting. I
knew by the hats and costumes. Unfortunately, somehow the "real
answer" was to know it by the boat rigging. And it was no big boat,
either, but a little kind of six passenger slightly-bigger-than-
rowboat, with one sail. Well hell, I don't have to know about that
to identify periods. There are clues in the painting style and the
people and their facial hair, and hairdos, and hats...



So anyway... <g>

Holly and Brett and I saw Nights in Rodanthe, and all the previews
were for movies set in modern times. This was notable, because Holly
and I saw The Duchess the other day and all the previews were for
"period movies"--none as old as The Duchess, but two from the 30's,
one from the 40's, one 50's, and one from the 70's (Milk, which might
be early 80's?).

Holly noticed it the first time.

Our kids all are forming their own historical trails/tunnels/
histories with what they know about toys, video games, computers,
popular music, and movies. Same me, of course. I mentioned to a 30
year old friend yesterday that I was David Bowie's first American
fan. He was skeptical. I was calm. I'll send him the link, which
someday will have the newspaper envelope and photostat pictures
scanned. It doesn't matter to me if he believes me or not. It was
over 40 years ago. His belief or disbelief doesn't change a single
thing about it.

http://sandradodd.com/bowieletter

I've shown my kids where I saw the first Star Wars movie (the Lensic
theater in Santa Fe, where I also saw The Sound of Music, when it was
new, sitting in the back row holding hands with Frank Garcia), and
where I saw three new Beatles movies (The El Rio in Espanola, and
yes, everybody DID call it "The El Rio" whether they spoke English or
Spanish). That's some history, though it didn't seem like it at the
time.

Our kids are living history right now, being part of the first really
big batch of unschoolers. It doesn't seem like it now, but they'll
definitely have some stories to tell, whether unschooling gets more
common or becomes wildly unpopular or illegal or whatever! :-)

Sandra

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graberamy

> http://sandradodd.com/bowieletter>>>

OK, I was already impressed with ya Sandra, now I'm extra, extra
impressed! I LOVE Bowie! I am blown away by that letter. Is it a
signature or a copy or a stamp?? WOW! Did you ever right him again?
See him in person/live?

I've never seen Bowie, but I've always been a big fan. It's on my
list of hope to see some day!

Very cool.

amy g
iowa

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am blown away by that letter. Is it a
signature or a copy or a stamp?? WOW! Did you ever right him again?
See him in person/live?-=-



Absolutely signature and on the original you can see all the typing
mistakes, some fixed. <g>

I did write. I didn't see him. If you click the title on that page
you get to another page with more details, and someday I'll scan the
other things he sent.



http://sandradodd.com/bowie

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Jenny C

Well hell, I don't have to know about that
> to identify periods. There are clues in the painting style and the
> people and their facial hair, and hairdos, and hats...
>


That part is fun to me, because it's like a mystery. I identify old
paintings with clothing too. The Dutch really had the clothing thing
going on in their paintings too, so often that's a clue for me of where
the artist came from.

Once I was trying to figure out how old sleeves were made and I used
dutch paintings to figure that out. I'm sure there were other resources
out there, but it was fun to kind of go to the source of actual
historical documentation rather than take someone's word for it, even if
they were an expert.

> Our kids all are forming their own historical trails/tunnels/
> histories with what they know about toys, video games, computers,
> popular music, and movies.

This is exactly why my husband doesn't like to get rid of stuff! Our
house has a lot of weird items tucked away. We like to browse thrift
stores and antique stores just to find unusual things of the not so
distant past.

> Our kids are living history right now, being part of the first really
> big batch of unschoolers.

One thing I started to think about, after this conversation was this
idea of failing or not failing a history class. Chamille has a friend
who isn't doing so well in her history class. The idea of it seems so
absurd to me. I mean, if we had the ability of time travel maybe we'd
all be experts in history. The idea that someone could fail "history"
is such a weird thing to consider. I know in reality she probably got
dates wrong, but for someone like her, or others that don't do numbers
well, that's a really bad way to look at history. Even for people who
do like numbers, history isn't about that. To me, it's more about the
evolution of ideas and how they are physically portrayed.

What we have are other people's documentation of things of the past,
books, music, pictures, objects, etc. These things are all around us,
and things of the 20th century will be around for many many years still.
Something that used to really bother me in school was how history seemed
to be documented by dates of wars. conquering of lands, and famous male
figures, things I really don't have a lot of interest in, it's only
notable peripherally. I was more interested in what people actually did
on a day to day basis in various points in time and I wanted to know not
only what people from the US or England did, but what people from Japan
or India did. I had to wait until college to learn some of that stuff.
My kids can learn these things any time they want to, whenever it
interests them. That's really exciting to me!

Sandra Dodd

-=-The idea of it seems so
absurd to me. I mean, if we had the ability of time travel maybe we'd
all be experts in history. -=-

I don't think so.

People involved in WWII didn't yet know all the causes. That
unravelled gradually over time, with retrospect. People in the
middle of something don't know how it started or how it will turn out
as well as those who can look back on it with some perspective and
ask questions of people involved in different aspects of it all.

-=-What we have are other people's documentation of things of the
past,books, music, pictures, objects, etc. -=-

Letters. I LOVE letters.

-=-Something that used to really bother me in school was how history
seemed

to be documented by dates of wars. conquering of lands, and famous male
figures, things I really don't have a lot of interest in, it's only
notable peripherally. I was more interested in what people actually did
on a day to day basis in various points in time and I wanted to know not
only what people from the US or England did, but what people from Japan
or India did. I had to wait until college to learn some of that stuff.
My kids can learn these things any time they want to, whenever it
interests them. That's really exciting to me!-=-



Political history vs. social history. Partly it was the women's
movement in the 1970's that helped change the face of the history
people study. All the dates and wars and kings and "birth of
nations" kind of history is called "political history," and when I
was a kid that was the only kind there was.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I don't think so.
>
> People involved in WWII didn't yet know all the causes. That
> unravelled gradually over time, with retrospect. People in the
> middle of something don't know how it started or how it will turn out
> as well as those who can look back on it with some perspective and
> ask questions of people involved in different aspects of it all.
>

Yes, but if you were from the future with the retrospect, and then
travelled back into time, you'd probably have a better picture of what
happened. Ok, well time travel talk could get us into trouble ;) with
all it's circular cause and effect..... I won't go there....


> Political history vs. social history. Partly it was the women's
> movement in the 1970's that helped change the face of the history
> people study. All the dates and wars and kings and "birth of
> nations" kind of history is called "political history," and when I
> was a kid that was the only kind there was.


Yes! That part of the women's movement was wonderful! It was the same
for me in history classes, political history. Although, I do like
finding connections between political and social history, I most
definitely like the social history best!

k

---- Yes, but if you were from the future with the retrospect, and then
travelled back into time, you'd probably have a better picture of what
happened. Ok, well time travel talk could get us into trouble ;) with
all it's circular cause and effect..... I won't go there....----

I would like to go there if one can observe without being able to effect the
events... to just be a ghost from the future, one that didn't need food,
water, shelter, or anything. Real virtual reality.. or something like that.


~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

<<Ok, well time travel talk could get us into trouble ;) with
> all it's circular cause and effect..... I won't go there....>>>

Kinda like the movie Back to the Future, a person from the future
would completely mess up the present and future.

So many things in that movie made me laugh, like when he ordered a
Tab, which my kids now have NO idea what he's talking about just like
the guy from the diner. And how he's wearing a down vest and the guy
from the diner thinks he's in the Navy. And the skateboard scene...my
son loves that! Graham can't contemplate a time w/out skateboards!

Back in the 70's when I went to school I moved a lot and it seemed all
I ever learned was early American history (over and over again). I
was soooo bored with it. But I never learned about the stuff that
really interested me, it wasn't until I saw the TV series Roots that I
really was turned on to history. Blown away by that aspect of
history, but I don't recall ever talking about it in school.

All those years of American history, I never learned about the
Japanese interment camps. Not until a movie I saw in my 20's (not in
school). Again, blown away...mostly that I didn't know about it!

amy g
iowa

carnationsgalore

> So many things in that movie made me laugh, like when he ordered a
> Tab, which my kids now have NO idea what he's talking about just
> like the guy from the diner.

My kids drink Tab. Ick! My DH and his family have been Tab drinkers
for years. It's funny when I'm paying for the Tab only to have an
older cashier look at it funny and say something like, 'This stuff is
still around? We sell it here?' :)

Beth M.

k

I think part of it is shame. Some things people don't want to come right
out and admit to. Another reason we didn't hear about that stuff in school
is that it's too depressing to know humanity's unkindness and/or cruelty to
humanity.

For instance, the Third Reich, the Holocaust, the genocides that are so
closely tied to our own involvement. JFK's assassination. Controversies
such as Guantanamo Bay tortures. The atrocities surrounding the Trail of
Tears and setting up reservations (very like concentration camps in most
ways).

Things like that are breezily mentioned in passing but I don't ever remember
any being on our tests or reviewed for testing purposes, or anything like
that.

~Katherine



> But I never learned about the stuff that
> really interested me, it wasn't until I saw the TV series Roots that I
> really was turned on to history. Blown away by that aspect of
> history, but I don't recall ever talking about it in school.
>
> All those years of American history, I never learned about the
> Japanese interment camps. Not until a movie I saw in my 20's (not in
> school). Again, blown away...mostly that I didn't know about it!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Oct 19, 2008, at 8:23 AM, k wrote:

> I think part of it is shame. Some things people don't want to come
> right
> out and admit to. Another reason we didn't hear about that stuff in
> school
> is that it's too depressing to know humanity's unkindness and/or
> cruelty to
> humanity.
>
> For instance, the Third Reich, the Holocaust, the genocides that are
> so
> closely tied to our own involvement. JFK's assassination.
> Controversies
> such as Guantanamo Bay tortures. The atrocities surrounding the
> Trail of
> Tears and setting up reservations (very like concentration camps in
> most
> ways).
>
> Things like that are breezily mentioned in passing but I don't ever
> remember
> any being on our tests or reviewed for testing purposes, or anything
> like
> that.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>> But I never learned about the stuff that
>> really interested me, it wasn't until I saw the TV series Roots
>> that I
>> really was turned on to history. Blown away by that aspect of
>> history, but I don't recall ever talking about it in school.
>>
>> All those years of American history, I never learned about the
>> Japanese interment camps. Not until a movie I saw in my 20's (not in
>> school). Again, blown away...mostly that I didn't know about it!


Read "Lies My Teacher Told Me," by James W. Loewen.

Nancy

Jenny C

> My kids drink Tab. Ick! My DH and his family have been Tab drinkers
> for years. It's funny when I'm paying for the Tab only to have an
> older cashier look at it funny and say something like, 'This stuff is
> still around? We sell it here?' :)


Do you watch Sara Silverman at all? I'm trying to locate the tab
episode on youtube and I can't seem to find it. OMG! It's soooo funny,
but then again I find everything she does funny.

Joanna Murphy

> Read "Lies My Teacher Told Me," by James W. Loewen.
>

After reading that book, I began to reconnect with my interest in history. Great fun.

On a different topic, I was channel surfing and landed on a show on the History Channel
that just didn't sound that interesting to me at first. It was ancient military technology. It
was fascinating, and mostly centered around Asia.

As it turns out, whole wars were lost, sometimes, out at sea before even landing due to
bad timing and/or the wrong equipment. If fact, Japan was the last hold-out to Ghengis
Khan and had become a thorn in his side with all the pirating--that's a different pirate
image, huh? He sent everything he had--perhaps 10,000 ships. Meanwhile, the Japanese
prayed for deliverance. It came in the form of a storm that sank almost everything as the
Mongolians reached the Japanese coast--a "wind of God" that they called "Kamikaze."
Direct connection to modern times.

And, in school, I didn't learn anything about the whole range and scope of Ghengis Khan-
-just that he was a barbarian conqueror. I'm thinking he was a little more than that. He
had a territory that was something like 3 times the size of the United States at one time, if
the history channel was right. I think that was important to a lot of people!

I just don't get why they have to sacrifice wonderful stories for the dry memorization of
dates and names. It makes the conspiracy theories pretty believable.

Joanna