a_roff

So I enrolled my dd (6.5) in 4 classes this fall (she was interested
in all of them at the time). And we dropped all 4 because she didn't
want to go back.

Unfortunately, I told people about the classes--a few of these people
aren't too keen on homeschooling. I thought, foolishly, I would tell
them about it to show that we are (dd is) "doing" something with our
homeschooling.

Now, we are home once again most of the time because dd doesn't like
to get out too much (though we try to a few times a week, and go home
when she's ready for the most part). And she's not fond of having
new friends over and figuring out those dynamics (she has a schooled
neighbor friend she is comfortable playing with). She really does
enjoy having most of her time spent with our family, and
independently.

We are trying a family Spanish class today taught by the adult son of
my unschooling friend. Family classes sound like something I'm going
to pursue.

She is also considered shy around people she doesn't feel comfortable
around (she is not at all shy with us, her family or her good buddy
or some of our extended family). There's a part of me that is
nervous that other people, especially extended family, will think
that I need to get her out more in order for her to "get over" this
shyness (or socialization)--a belief that I have heard but don't
agree with.

I also have a 3 year old dd. It seems like our day goes by really
quickly by the time I get food for the kids (several times a day),
clean up the kitchen, do laundry, email a bit, answer kids'
questions, wipe butts, and so on. I feel guilty that I'm not giving
dd1 much for project and/or reading time which she really loves.
Although for the most part she keeps really busy during the day with
her own inventions and playing with dd2. And both really seem to be
thriving.

I have a large homeschooling group in my area, we are still meeting
at a great park (until November 1st, then indoors). Dd1 doesn't like
to go. If we go, I mostly hear whining about wanting to go home
(mostly from dd1). So now I'm thinking it's best to not go right
now. But I sure do love the adult contact.

I want to make peace with this so if/when people ask about the
classes or ask questions about what we do, I can be okay with their
questions. And also I wonder why I can't seem to get myself focused
enough to do the one-on-one reading time, etc. my kids really love
during the day (we do read at night if we get in bed early enough).
I do think it's really important for me to be okay with
myself/accepting because then I feel much better, and am much
happier. But I do wonder if there is something I'm just not
understanding about all this.

My mantra lately is "We're always learning!" and that is helping me
so much. I'm also reading "Deschooling Our Lives" which makes me feel
like our unschooling choice is pretty much a no-brainer.

I was wondering if anyone has any comments about this.

Warmly,
Amy in MN

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, a_roff wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has any comments about this.

Shy kids who are forced into social situations don't become less shy,
they become "defensively shy."

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

or defensively aggressive
my son needs lots of time at home and very little social time, and feels tremendously stressed when pushed to do *any* more than he is ready/capable of. getting to know HIMSELF and his own limits and having those respected has been key to his mental and emotional health and general peace in our family. it has also been key to him actually initiating activities and outward facing involvements, slowly, over time.

----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] dd likes to be at home w/ family most of the time



On Oct 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, a_roff wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has any comments about this.

Shy kids who are forced into social situations don't become less shy,
they become "defensively shy."

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

--or defensively aggressive
my son needs lots of time at home and very little social time, and
feels tremendously stressed when pushed to do *any* more than he is
ready/capable of. getting to know HIMSELF and his own limits and
having those respected has been key to his mental and emotional
health and general peace in our family. it has also been key to him
actually initiating activities and outward facing involvements,
slowly, over time.-=-



I've seen Marty get better over time, and can remember a few times in
the past when Marty was trapped in a social situation too close, too
long and reacted badly. He still needs more time alone than my other
kids, but he's VERY outgoing and has been since he was 14 or so, but
before that he hung back quite a bit.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:

> or defensively aggressive
> my son needs lots of time at home and very little social time, and
> feels tremendously stressed when pushed to do *any* more than he is
> ready/capable of. getting to know HIMSELF and his own limits and
> having those respected has been key to his mental and emotional
> health and general peace in our family. it has also been key to him
> actually initiating activities and outward facing involvements,
> slowly, over time.
>
Yes, "defensively aggressive" describes my daughter exactly.

If I had to do it over again, I would have stayed home with her when
she was younger. She liked being home. She still likes being home. But
I thought she needed to be with other kids (and I wanted to be with
other moms).

Michelle would like the *idea* of doing classes/activities with other
kids, so I would arrange it. Most times she found them to be too much.
It has affected her sense of self and I wish I'd been more aware of
that.

She now has some strategies in place (Nintendo DS, modelling clay,
finding a quiet space to be on her own) that help. I am learning to be
very present for her, attentive to her sensitivities before things get
tough. I'm afraid I have not done the best job of this, since I get
overwhelmed easily (but "defensively shy"). But, there's no time like
right now to "get it." Her life is better because of it.

Robin B.

Lyla Wolfenstein

you describe almost exactly my experience with my son. i don't get defensively shy, but definitely reactive, and that never helps. i also wish i had listened more closely to my son years ago. we are paying the price now that we are listening, because his tolerance for discomfort, boredom, overwhelm, stress, etc. of any kind is very very low most of the time - lower, i think, than it would have been if i'd been more responsive when he was younger.





On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:

> or defensively aggressive
> my son needs lots of time at home and very little social time, and
> feels tremendously stressed when pushed to do *any* more than he is
> ready/capable of. getting to know HIMSELF and his own limits and
> having those respected has been key to his mental and emotional
> health and general peace in our family. it has also been key to him
> actually initiating activities and outward facing involvements,
> slowly, over time.
>
Yes, "defensively aggressive" describes my daughter exactly.

If I had to do it over again, I would have stayed home with her when
she was younger. She liked being home. She still likes being home. But
I thought she needed to be with other kids (and I wanted to be with
other moms).

Michelle would like the *idea* of doing classes/activities with other
kids, so I would arrange it. Most times she found them to be too much.
It has affected her sense of self and I wish I'd been more aware of
that.

She now has some strategies in place (Nintendo DS, modelling clay,
finding a quiet space to be on her own) that help. I am learning to be
very present for her, attentive to her sensitivities before things get
tough. I'm afraid I have not done the best job of this, since I get
overwhelmed easily (but "defensively shy"). But, there's no time like
right now to "get it." Her life is better because of it.

Robin B.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elwazani

> I was wondering if anyone has any comments about this.
>
> Warmly,
> Amy in MN
>

My almost 6yo d. surprised us this week. She has always been
considered shy by most people save the few she "let in" to her circle
of comfort. She is VERY small for her age...she is about 3 feet 5"
and only weighs 34 pounds. She is very flexible and is always
flipping and flopping, spending great deals of time upside down or
sprawled like road kill. My next two older children have been very
active in theatre, my 15 yo d. is planning on a career in theatre
actually, so my almost 6 yo decided she was going to audtion for the
part of Tiny Tim at our university theatre dept here for their
production of Christmas Carol. We were all concenered that she would
just freeze up. The day of the auditions she asked quite worried if
a certain boy from our town who had an arm amputated a few years back
would be at the auditions. She is TERRIFIED by his lack of a
forarm. I have tried to talk with her about it but she just begins
to cry and shake and demand to leave where ever we are. This has
meant leaaving the public pool, the library, a friends party etc. I
told here he wouldn't likely be there because he was older and would
be in the next audition time...all was going well when, in he
walked. She grabbed me and started shaking and ssaying I can't do
this this take me home etc. The theatre people thought she was just
suddenly scared about the audition. I calmed her down enough that she
would let a friend hold her off where she couldn't see the boy and
quickly explained the situation to the director's assistant. I then
went to my daughter and asked if she really wanted to leave, because
I was not going to be able arrange for any other options for the
audition. She was still very upset but said she HAD to audition and
what should she do? I suggested she could let two of her homeschool
older friends hold her hands in and then sit where she couldn't see
the boy...she carried on back and forth for wveral minutes that she
couldn't do this but she HAd to She really wanted to be Tiny Tim she
finnally went in and a short while later the assistant came ot to
tell me she was doing fine (No parents allowed in auditions) She
came out a while later, being carried by one of her friends. She
said she had done ok but had been TOO SHY to sing the song she had
rehearsed...We ifgure that was the end of that when she said on of
the other little girls had song a nice song...next day we get the
call that she was cast!! She da been the only child that would allow
Scrooge to pick her up and flip her on to his shoulders. She
had'n't told us that! She said well that wasn't scary that was just
fun, I got to ride up on his shoulders and flip up and down. I
realize this has been long bo my point is what has been viewed as
weak points by many was the strong points that got her the role...Her
size that of a small three yo was a plus for the charecter, her
fondness for cavorting through space landed her fearless on Scrooge's
shoulders and her over coming the problem with the bot impresses the
director and they thought she could over come stage freight...even if
she couldn't sing at the audition...She did cause she really wnted
it. Beverly

Sandra Dodd

-=-I told here he wouldn't likely be there because he was older and
would
be in the next audition time...all was going well when, in he
walked. She grabbed me and started shaking and ssaying I can't do
this this take me home etc. -=-



While it's great that she was cast, what if this boy is cast too?
But even if he's not, it seems your daughter could use some serious
eye-to-eye about her reaction. Have you talked to her about how she
would feel if something happened to you, or her, or (I don't know who
you could name) and you were missing part of a hand or a leg (I
wouldn't make a direct parallel) and people wanted to run away
instead of being nice?

Would it help to find photos of amputees? There's a dog born with no
forelegs that walks on hind legs. There's a youTube video. I
wouldn't overwhelm her with such photos, but some desensitization
seems to be a good plan under the circumstances.

Maybe if you know someone (or could call the humane society or a vet
or something) with a three-legged dog, she could meet the dog and pet
it and touch the place and hear the story, and realize that of course
the dog would be better off with four legs, but has learned to
compensate, and is alive.



Maybe you've tried all that. But all other things being equal, if
the boy is cast in the play, will your daughter drop out? Will he
discover the reason?

(You don't need to tell us, I'm just putting those things out for you
to think about, which you might already have done.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

In addition to the shy part (which I think of as withdrawing into
myself) I can also get reactive. I lose my center and start making
demands of her (to calm down, breathe, leave, etc.).

So, I need some help for me and for her in these situations.

As my dd's gotten older, she has found a great deal of joy at home
playing World of Warcraft, posting on deviantArt, reading, sculpting
in clay, playing her DS or Wii. I'm perfectly happy for her to be
here. She rides horses, too, and interacts well with other people there.

More recently, she has sought social experiences or said yes to some
suggestions of mine. But, at 13, things can still go off the rails for
her quickly in a social circumstances.

She says she wants to be in the situation, looks forward to it, has
plans of how to handle things if it's difficult, but has expectations
of how things will go, even if I try to prepare her for possibilities.
When her expectations are not realized, or she's not prepared for some
kind of interaction, she can get pretty agitated. And it can happen in
a flash.

If I can catch the moment just before the tipping point, I can make a
difference. But if I don't and she's gone from irritated to melt-down
*now,* I have found it hard to help her. She's likely to tune me out
completely and push me away, especially if I try to guide her
physically to a "safe place" (somewhere out of the situation for her
to regain her composure). I try not to talk to her too much, because
she can't process what I'm saying when she's feeling that overwhelmed.
But, sometimes, I get agitated, too.

I have tried, as suggested by an unschooling friend, to devise with
her a signal that will help her to know when to take a break, go for a
walk, remove herself from the situation. She doesn't seem particularly
open to my managing this - in other words, I feel as if she doesn't
want me to identify when *I* think it's time to take a break.

It wasn't as hard when she was little to scoop her up and find
something more fun to do. But, now, she's bigger, strong and
defensive. She also doesn't want me hanging around all the time. She
seems to *want* to negotiate these deep waters for herself, even if
she doesn't yet have the skills to swim in them.

I want to give her space, yet I want to protect her (and others, if
necessary). And I want to increase the trust between us that I'm there
to help, not hinder her.

Advice and insight appreciated.

Robin B.

On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:47 PM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:

> you describe almost exactly my experience with my son. i don't get
> defensively shy, but definitely reactive, and that never helps. i
> also wish i had listened more closely to my son years ago. we are
> paying the price now that we are listening, because his tolerance
> for discomfort, boredom, overwhelm, stress, etc. of any kind is very
> very low most of the time - lower, i think, than it would have been
> if i'd been more responsive when he was younger.
>
>
>
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 2, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:

> She
> seems to *want* to negotiate these deep waters for herself, even if
> she doesn't yet have the skills to swim in them.

My husband's soccer coaching technique.

Coach during practices and allow the players to play the game
themselves.

That is my husband's soccer coaching strategy - he says coaches should
not be coaching DURING a game, that's what practices are for. He is an
extraordinarily successful coach - the teams are always divided up so
that they are level in terms of player abilities. In our region they
go to great lengths to even out the teams. But his teams win and win
and win - season after season for the past 13 or so years this has
been true. And they win at tournaments, too. During games he organizes
the line-up, talks to the players beforehand and during half time and
afterward, but he doesn't shout out at the players telling them what
to do during the game, like all other coaches do. I think this has far-
reaching effects on the players - they don't rely on the coach, they
aren't always thinking about what the coach wants, they're more "in"
the game, less distracted, more able to try out things that they think
of themselves. He doesn't criticize their decisions during the game,
later. THEY talk about what went well and what didn't - but the "what
didn't" comes from them, not him.

-pam

Robin Bentley

Great idea - thanks. I guess I should know it, as my husband is a race
driver coach! Although he does stay in contact with drivers by radio
during races, he only reinforces "trigger" words or concepts already
learned during separate track sessions and practices.

His clients really want to find a way, with his help, to get better at
what they do. I've met with resistance from my dd when I've suggested
talking about what she can do, prior to social situations. I *do*
write her letters, though, because she can read them at her leisure
and mull them over. She does want to get better. She just doesn't want
to approach it head on.

I'll get busy writing.

Robin B.


On Oct 2, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> On Oct 2, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:
>
>> She
>> seems to *want* to negotiate these deep waters for herself, even if
>> she doesn't yet have the skills to swim in them.
>
> My husband's soccer coaching technique.
>
> Coach during practices and allow the players to play the game
> themselves.
>

Don & Louisa

Wow, it was so nice to read your email because you described my day so
accurately...I have 3 kids, 7,5 and 3 and we own a farm so add in farm
work to the equation....I don't have much time to facilitate learning,
and when I do they're building lego or busy with something or other,
which is the point, I know, but I feel like I'm failing....I'm still
in that mindset that I need to do "something" I try and read to them
for at least an hour a day, that is a successful day for me, but some
days it doesn't happen (today it did yay!) I wonder how other
mothers who work in the home do it or do anything, it feels like I
never stop moving.......and my house is still a disaster ;)

Louisa,
who sometimes hears "Clean my butt mummy!" in stereo, seriously

>
> I also have a 3 year old dd. It seems like our day goes by really
> quickly by the time I get food for the kids (several times a day),
> clean up the kitchen, do laundry, email a bit, answer kids'
> questions, wipe butts, and so on. I feel guilty that I'm not giving
> dd1 much for project and/or reading time which she really loves.
> Although for the most part she keeps really busy during the day with
> her own inventions and playing with dd2. And both really seem to be
> thriving.
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any comments about this.
>
> Warmly,
> Amy in MN

a_roff

--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> She says she wants to be in the situation, looks forward to it, has
> plans of how to handle things if it's difficult, but has
expectations
> of how things will go, even if I try to prepare her for
possibilities.
> When her expectations are not realized, or she's not prepared for
some
> kind of interaction, she can get pretty agitated. And it can happen
in
> a flash.

I'm just wondering about this. In light of law of attraction, is this
setting her up for a challenging situation? You can't possibly know
all possibilities (that could occur). My suggestion would be to give
her a pep talk before hand: Hey, what a fun time you're going to have!
You feel so good about yourself, who you are--strong, capable. Have a
great time! And that's it. Stay out of the way. Don't talk about it
afterwards, unless she comes to you. And then just listen. If she asks
questions, keep your answers short and positive.

Give her the opportunity / the freedom to be a different person than
she was when she was younger, than she was last week, yesterday, an
hour ago. And you can do this by thinking and feeling different
thoughts about her (thoughts about her inner strength, etc.)

This Daily Groove says it better:

----
The Joy of NOT Being Known
by Scott Noelle, posted on 2006-06-15

Yesterday we connected with the joy of being known. However, not being
known can be a good thing, too — it gives you space to re-create
yourself every now and then.

A parent's "knowing" can have the unintended effect of suppressing
growth and learning: "Don't give my son any broccoli — he hates it!"
Who's to say he won't develop a taste for broccoli today?

If you find yourself using labels (e.g., "fussy eater") you
definitely "know" too much about your child!

Today, continue connecting with what you know about your child, but
also be willing to let go of everything you know and allow a new truth
to be born.

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/not-being-known
----

Warmly,
Amy in MN (who needed this reminder)

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 3, 2008, at 6:28 AM, a_roff wrote:

> I'm just wondering about this. In light of law of attraction, is this
> setting her up for a challenging situation?

This is the second time someone (maybe same person, I don't know),
referred to "law of attraction" as if that's something we all accept
as a basis for making decisions. It is a lot like saying, "In light of
Jesus dying for our sins" or "in light of what Muhammad said."

My point is that it will be convincing to believers, confusing to
those who don't know what you're talking about, and irrelevant to the
rest.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-In light of law of attraction, is this
setting her up for a challenging situation? -=-



If possible, can we leave the law of attraction out of this list? Or
if you can state your concern without citing "law of attraction," I'd
feel better.



The author of the quote is a pep-talkin' guy, but he badmouthed this
list (some thought; could've been another list, but it's as
irritating even if it was another one) in a public speech.



-=-A parent's "knowing" can have the unintended effect of suppressing

growth and learning: "Don't give my son any broccoli � he hates it!"
Who's to say he won't develop a taste for broccoli today?-=-



Since before the author of that had children, I've been recommending
that people say things like "He doesn't like spinach yet" rather than
"He hates spinach."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 3, 2008, at 9:45 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Since before the author of that had children, I've been recommending
> that people say things like "He doesn't like spinach yet" rather than
> "He hates spinach."

Twenty plus years ago I remember saying, "She isn't into spinach."
Such hippy 60's talk, huh? But the expression of being "into"
something has a feel to it of it being a temporary phase - much more
so than the all or nothing expressions "likes it" or "doesn't like
it." It implies that the door open for the possibility of being "into"
something else, later.

-pam

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Naruto, my 6 yea old will taste something ( or not) when offered and say:
" I don't like this yet but I may like it when I grow up"
or
" No thanks, I will like it when I grow up"


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

a_roff

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 3, 2008, at 6:28 AM, a_roff wrote:
>
> > I'm just wondering about this. In light of law of attraction, is
this
> > setting her up for a challenging situation?
>
> This is the second time someone (maybe same person, I don't know),
> referred to "law of attraction" as if that's something we all
accept
> as a basis for making decisions. It is a lot like saying, "In light
of
> Jesus dying for our sins" or "in light of what Muhammad said."
>
> My point is that it will be convincing to believers, confusing to
> those who don't know what you're talking about, and irrelevant to
the
> rest.

Point taken. So let me reword: "Is this setting her up for a
challenging situation?"

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 3, 2008, at 10:15 AM, a_roff wrote:

> So let me reword: "Is this setting her up for a
> challenging situation?"

This was the situation:
> She says she wants to be in the situation, looks forward to it, has
> plans of how to handle things if it's difficult, but has
expectations
> of how things will go, even if I try to prepare her for
possibilities.
> When her expectations are not realized, or she's not prepared for
some
> kind of interaction, she can get pretty agitated. And it can happen
in
> a flash.

Do you prepare her for specific possibilities of ways things might go
wrong or more for how to handle it if things don't go the way she's
imagining they will? The latter might be more useful.

Try to help her learn to be flexible by talking about flexibility -
how is that some people seem to be able to "roll with the punches?"
What might they be saying to themselves when things don't go their way?

Maybe mention some things she could say to herself when she starts
feeling disappointed or let down or agitated?

"Okay, things are not going my way so what am I going to do?" "I could
take 10 deep breaths." "I could excuse myself and go to the bathroom
to get a few minutes of privacy." "I could....".

I do understand being disappointed when expectations are not met,
though. I remember once a group of friends was driving together to go
up to the mountains and we had car trouble and couldn't go. I cried. I
was 16. I remember that I realized my friends thought I was way overly
upset and I remember wondering how they didn't feel so devastated as I
did. I STILL have to be aware of that tendency in myself - I look
forward to things pretty passionately, I guess, and build things up in
my head and then I can be more disappointed than most other people
when things don't live up to the way I have it playing out in my head.

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

wow, this was really good for me to hear. not only does it really capture my own childhood, and to a lesser degree my adulthood, but it *perfectly* describes my daughter's (13) tendencies. both she and i experienced that/ translated that as caring more about friendships than our friends - putting more into relationships. perhaps it was more about sensitivity to disappointment in general. what my daughter seems to benefit from more than anything in a situation like that is just lots of empathy.

anyhow, it is very interesting to hear another adult's perspective!

-----

I do understand being disappointed when expectations are not met,
though. I remember once a group of friends was driving together to go
up to the mountains and we had car trouble and couldn't go. I cried. I
was 16. I remember that I realized my friends thought I was way overly
upset and I remember wondering how they didn't feel so devastated as I
did. I STILL have to be aware of that tendency in myself - I look
forward to things pretty passionately, I guess, and build things up in
my head and then I can be more disappointed than most other people
when things don't live up to the way I have it playing out in my head.

.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> Do you prepare her for specific possibilities of ways things might go
> wrong or more for how to handle it if things don't go the way she's
> imagining they will? The latter might be more useful.

No, I try not to go into specific possibilities. I don't how things
will go! I have given her some ways to handle her feelings, but I
think she's been hearing it as a lecture. On occasion, I've mentioned
that someone with whom she's had difficulty before will be there,
which may have set her up for anxiety for no good reason.

It's sometimes a fine line between saying nothing that might upset her
ahead of time and saying the wrong thing. Pep talks have fallen into
that "wrong thing" category for her. It's another way for me to
dismiss *her* thoughts about it.
>
>
> Try to help her learn to be flexible by talking about flexibility -
> how is that some people seem to be able to "roll with the punches?"
> What might they be saying to themselves when things don't go their
> way?
>
> Maybe mention some things she could say to herself when she starts
> feeling disappointed or let down or agitated?
>
> "Okay, things are not going my way so what am I going to do?" "I could
> take 10 deep breaths." "I could excuse myself and go to the bathroom
> to get a few minutes of privacy." "I could....".

These are great suggestions, Pam. I will write them down for her to
absorb in her own time. She's maturing, so I think it's making more
sense to her now that being flexible can be a better strategy.
>
>
> I do understand being disappointed when expectations are not met,
> though. I remember once a group of friends was driving together to go
> up to the mountains and we had car trouble and couldn't go. I cried. I
> was 16. I remember that I realized my friends thought I was way overly
> upset and I remember wondering how they didn't feel so devastated as I
> did. I STILL have to be aware of that tendency in myself - I look
> forward to things pretty passionately, I guess, and build things up in
> my head and then I can be more disappointed than most other people
> when things don't live up to the way I have it playing out in my head.

Yes, she's more easily devastated over things than many people expect.
Tears come, but anger and "stuck-ness" are more likely at first. She
does withdraw and keep her innermost feelings to herself. I wonder if
the anger is a protection of sorts?
>
Michelle also has high expectations of herself, so when she does
something that embarrasses her, her anxiety increases. But she seems
ready for change, so I want to help, not make things worse for her.

Robin B.

a_roff

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> The author of the quote is a pep-talkin' guy, but he badmouthed
this
> list (some thought; could've been another list, but it's as
> irritating even if it was another one) in a public speech.
>

I know Scott a little bit as we have talked on the phone around 10
times or so. And I get a lot out of his writings, and have a lot of
respect for his advice, gentleness, and openness. So I was surprised
to read on this list that he was badmouthing anyone. I asked him
about it. I think the comments made here could have had an impact on
his home business which supports his family so they can stay home
together, so I'm posting his response:

Sandra was apparently referring to comments I made during one of my
presentations at the California homeschooling conference in
Sacramento, last August. I didn't see Sandra at the conference, so I'm
guessing she heard about my comments from _[I'm removing her name
here]__, who was there, and with whom I had a long, constructive
conversation about it.

Here's an audio excerpt from that presentation, called "Transcending
the 'Un' in Unschooling," which includes my brief comment about
unschooling lists *in general*. You can judge for yourself if I was
"badmouthing"...

www.scottnoelle.com/files/unschooling-correctness.mp3

A major theme of the talk was how rule-based, right/wrong thinking
permeates our society (including the school system), and one way that
orientation shows up in the unschooling movement is in the form
of "unschooling correctness." Pam helped me see that it goes both
ways on unschooling lists -- that often the "victim" has perceived a
constructive criticism as shaming. Either way, it's the mode of
thinking I was criticizing, not the people who engage in it (which is
*all* of us, to varying degrees and in a variety of ways). I wasn't
making anyone out to be bad; nothing is more natural than to pick up
the patterns of one's own culture.

But for me unschooling is an act of cultural creativity, and in my
experience political correctness hinders that creative process.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

Feel free to post this to the AlwaysLearning list.

Thanks,

Scott Noelle
www.scottnoelle.com
www.enjoyparenting.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-So I was surprised
to read on this list that he was badmouthing anyone. I asked him
about it. I think the comments made here could have had an impact on
his home business which supports his family so they can stay home
together, so I'm posting his response:-=-



The comments he made for money at a conference largely run and
supported by unschoolers who help people for free, in a talk that was
recorded to be sold during and after the conference, could have an
impact on the good that I and others have been doing freely and
generously for thousands of families for over a dozen years.



I haven't listened to the clip yet, but I hope when you wrote to
Scott you sent my whole post, where I had already made clear that I
didn't know if it was this list, and that I wasn't there.



We don't need to discuss people who are selling unschooling and
mindful parenting information here. There's no need. The list isn't
for that. It's for discussing unschooling directly. Citing someone
is fine, but disputing points with quotes from people who aren't here
and who don't help other people freely isn't what the list is about.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

It's unfortunate about Scott's views on TV freedom and that he pretty
much said what others have said that support is better than
discussion -- and those who agree should find a support list! ;-) and
leave the discussion to those who find it more useful.

But I do like his Daily Grooves. I clicked on one a while ago to see
commentary and responses, and found his responses to questions rather
vague on details. (But, of course he charges for help.)

But when he sticks to making one concept clear and concise he's often
wonderful:

www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

Joyce

Margaret

I listened to it. Based on the comment about "small explosives" I can
only think that radical unschoolers are not his audience. It's too
bad he put the copyright bit on it as it makes me think that
transcribing it and discussing it wouldn't be appropriate. I was put
off by the comments, but it is good to have heard them first hand.

Are these, in fact, the comments that were considered badmouthing this
list or was there more that isn't included in that clip?


On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:17 AM, a_roff <a_roff@...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The author of the quote is a pep-talkin' guy, but he badmouthed
> this
>> list (some thought; could've been another list, but it's as
>> irritating even if it was another one) in a public speech.
>>
>
> I know Scott a little bit as we have talked on the phone around 10
> times or so. And I get a lot out of his writings, and have a lot of
> respect for his advice, gentleness, and openness. So I was surprised
> to read on this list that he was badmouthing anyone. I asked him
> about it. I think the comments made here could have had an impact on
> his home business which supports his family so they can stay home
> together, so I'm posting his response:
>
> Sandra was apparently referring to comments I made during one of my
> presentations at the California homeschooling conference in
> Sacramento, last August. I didn't see Sandra at the conference, so I'm
> guessing she heard about my comments from _[I'm removing her name
> here]__, who was there, and with whom I had a long, constructive
> conversation about it.
>
> Here's an audio excerpt from that presentation, called "Transcending
> the 'Un' in Unschooling," which includes my brief comment about
> unschooling lists *in general*. You can judge for yourself if I was
> "badmouthing"...
>
> www.scottnoelle.com/files/unschooling-correctness.mp3
>
> A major theme of the talk was how rule-based, right/wrong thinking
> permeates our society (including the school system), and one way that
> orientation shows up in the unschooling movement is in the form
> of "unschooling correctness." Pam helped me see that it goes both
> ways on unschooling lists -- that often the "victim" has perceived a
> constructive criticism as shaming. Either way, it's the mode of
> thinking I was criticizing, not the people who engage in it (which is
> *all* of us, to varying degrees and in a variety of ways). I wasn't
> making anyone out to be bad; nothing is more natural than to pick up
> the patterns of one's own culture.
>
> But for me unschooling is an act of cultural creativity, and in my
> experience political correctness hinders that creative process.
>
> See also:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
>
> Feel free to post this to the AlwaysLearning list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Noelle
> www.scottnoelle.com
> www.enjoyparenting.com

Joanna

I was only there for part of that talk, because it felt like being at a talk given by any of the countless people who come to this list and talk about how they unschool everything except ........ I found the talk, in general, to be more "un" than anything, and not helpful, in my mind, in moving toward actual unschooling. The part I heard was fairly negative and critical in the broadest sense--not promoting anything positive, just dissing the "dogma" of unschooling, which is why his comments about lists and yahoo groups packed a little more punch when taken in the whole context. There was no understanding or acknowledgement expressed that, like trying to learn any new system, you have to adopt a certain amount of dogma to "try it on" and find what fits, and figure out what people are talking about. Most people move past that stage and become more creative with it as they internalize it, but it is a valid stage of learning.

What I found lacking were what I have considered to be some key components that this list has helped me to develop, like TRUST. There was, yet again, lots of talk of trusting ourselves as parents, and, yet again, very little talk about trusting our children.

There was a time in my unschooling journey, when I was not able to trust, that I was also very concerned with other people judging me. It doesn't mean that they were, but I was concerned with it. Now that I have found how to have a true connection with my children that is not based on a power differential, I am much more concerned with that relationship. The questions about "how to do it right" have melted away. But it took time and searching to find that place, and if someone hasn't truly found that place, yet is attempting to speak to audiences and advise people for money, then they may feel like they have a lot to be defensive about.

Joanna

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:17 AM, a_roff wrote:

> Sandra was apparently referring to comments I made during one of my
> presentations at the California homeschooling conference in
> Sacramento, last August. I didn't see Sandra at the conference, so I'm
> guessing she heard about my comments from _[I'm removing her name
> here]__, who was there, and with whom I had a long, constructive
> conversation about it.

LOL - removed my name from that paragraph but used it later. That's
okay. I did talk to Sandra about it and also as much as I could
remember about the lengthy and constructive talk Scott and I had,
later, too.

What I understood from Scott was that he'd read archives of an
unspecified unschooling list(s) and felt that people were being
pressured to unschool correctly and follow certain rules of
unschooling. He felt that people were being told things like "you're
doing it wrong" and "here is how to do it right" and "it is only right
if you do it my way." He was warning them off of that kind of right
and wrong thinking and warning them not to jump from the "box" of
school thinking to another "box" of unschooling correctness.

There is an aspect of this point that I completely agree with. People
often come to the unschooling lists and want our approval; they want
to know if they are "doing it right." I am with Scott 100 percent in
encouraging those people to STOP seeking approval, stop trying to fit
in, don't make their own journey about following someone else's rules
or principles. Instead, make it all about gaining deeper understanding
of what is best for your own children.

So far so good, I think.

What I was unhappy about was not the above message.

What I objected to was people being warned away from the unschooling
lists where I believe they have the best chance of truly doing that
sometimes very hard work of letting go of their own "shoulds" and
"musts" and "have to's."

The example Scott gave in his talk was that if you go to these lists
and mention limiting screen time that you'll get flamed.

THAT is what I referred to as badmouthing the lists. Flaming is NOT a
nice thing to be accused of at all. People who are "flaming" are being
hostile and insulting, not constructive or clarifying, and an
accusation of "flaming" is badmouthing.

What happens on the unschooling lists is nothing like flaming.

What happens on these lists is that people's ideas and beliefs are
most definitely challenged. That is the very purpose OF the lists. To
characterize that as "flaming" is a very strong and very negative
judgment and I was quite upset by it (I was in the audience).

Later that evening I expressed my objections to Scott (and I want to
say clearly that Scott listened carefully and I felt like we
communicated well). We talked for a long time.

I felt that Scott, like others, did not understand the nature and
purpose of the lists. While I believe he is correct that there are
people who DO want to jump out of the schooling box and into another
one, I don't think it is the lists that are to blame for that or that
the lists pressure people into that. It is the people coming to the
lists already WANTING and seeking membership in the "unschooling club"
who end up hurt and upset because what happens on these lists is that,
instead of feeling welcomed into that new unschooling box, their ideas
are challenged and critiqued.

Do people experience discomfort at having their ideas held up to a
bright light and carefully and critically scrutinized? Some people
find it painful and others find it exhilarating. It definitely isn't
everyone's cup of tea.

Scott had said in his talk that they limit "screen time." I told Scott
that I think it is insulting to the kids to use the term 'screen time'
and lump together all the different things they might do that involve
tv, video games, or computers. He disagreed and said he thought screen
time was something those activities all had in common. I didn't argue.
He didn't argue. I didn't get the feeling he thought he'd just been
"flamed" - I got the feeling that he absolutely knew that I'd just
offered him something, based on my own understanding and experience,
that I thought might be useful for him to consider.

It won't make any difference in my family if Scott's family limits
what he calls screen time. We will continue to sit in our living room,
all together, with our laptops, while we watch Project Runway or the
Vice Presidential debates or a British soccer game or all KINDS of
other shows, and we'll pause the DVR so we can talk and look things up
on google and laugh and learn together. I have NOTHING to gain by
convincing Scott to think my way about tv, video games, or computer
use. His kids are still young and I know he's still interested and
open-minded and willing to listen to alternative ideas, so I offered
him that one. A freebie <BEG>.

That is very typical of the kind of interaction that gets taken by
some people as us trying to impose "unschooling correctness," as Scott
called it. I don't think Scott took it that way, and I think/hope that
he came to understand that this was a problem that people were
bringing with them to the lists, not having it imposed on them there.
Because HE wasn't worried, himself, about fitting into someone else's
definition of unschoolling, I think he took my comments exactly as
intended. I hope that made it more clear to him what is actually going
on when people do take such comments the wrong way.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-But it took time and searching to find that place, and if someone
hasn't truly found that place, yet is attempting to speak to
audiences and advise people for money, then they may feel like they
have a lot to be defensive about.-=-

There are a few male humans to whom I believe that applies.

If someone's family is really truly unschooling full on and
gloriously, then I don't care if the mom or dad or both is charging
to counsel families (especially not if one is "a real counsellor" of
one sort or another anyway). I think it's a little more questionable
when one charges serious money to speak and to do phone counselling
but his own unschooling is spotty or compromised.

I hope we can talk about the principle without naming names. Do your
own exploring and deciding.
If you're running a conference, PLEASE check in advance to see
whether the people can actually do the thing they're promoting. If
you're running a conference, please lean more toward personal
experience that will be freely shared than the stringing together of
truisms lifted from the larger body of the parenting knowledge that
has been building up over the past few decades, especially when it
involves someone who isn't willing to share freely about his own
personal successes with parenting and unschooling.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

This is all so interesting... pulling things out into the open. Shedding
more light on my own thinking about these things.

I must be some sort of philosophical omnivore. I love to incorporate
anything that feeds my unschooling journey, that I find useful. I have
gleaned from Scott's excellent wording of the parenting situation many
times. And more times than I can count, I've done the same on unschooling
lists for about 4 years now, maybe longer. Yet I'm not loyal to either
one. This is my life and I can choose to ditch one or both or to keep
both. We all decide what we think about correctness as we go along. No one
has to say anything about it. It happens on its own.

My point in this post is that I appreciate the philosophical diversity.
It's like the chicken and egg .... which came first? You can trace a good
bit back to any number of other philosophies and philosophers. Many
unschooling lists refer to John Holt. And John Holt is not a sudden
development that came sprang nowhere himself. The roots go far back and
long ago, getting more and more lost to antiquity every year.

My point is that the ecology of it is important. Philosophies come and go,
and find their uses where they are relevant to the surrounding culture. I'm
sure John Holt is one of the major culmination points in the ecology of
educational philosophies. Instead of seeing ourselves in a mirror and
walking away forgetful of what we've seen (like schoolthink does, which
can't draw much from unschooling), parents can directly experience what Holt
alluded to by unschooling their children. A fantastic privilege and
responsibility.

Holt's work *supports* a variety of similar thoughts as well as diverging
ones. Other's ideation sometimes is *supported* and other times pulled from
the roots to plant something else as a result of coming into contact with
the varied thoughts and ideas from Holt's "pollenation," philosophical
speaking. This construction and destruction is a natural process of the
thought life in various "ecologies" to form the philosophical structure.

Many converging and diverging philosophies build and pull down parts in my
own thinking. When I agree, great.. it builds something for me. When I
disagree, great .... at some point, the disagreement comes back around full
circle to eventual agreement (partially or in full) or it creates more (or
duplicates) clarity on the thinking I already had. Either way, I am
deciding what's relevant to me, and passing some on for consideration by
others in my family and among my friends. We are choosing our support
systems as we go, and in the same process, we are our own greatest supporter
of our own personal growth. Even when we don't know it, and even when it
doesn't benefit us the way we'd like it to.

I have found in unschooling lists possibly the greatest benefactor of the
happiness I'm building in the life of my family. On the lists, I can potter
through scads of ideas the way I can't in real life. It's like a lab in a
course for personal growth tailor-made for me, in which I get to form up the
hypotheses and test on my own and I don't have to report anything to
anybody. It's just for me. (Pottering, like Harry.)

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]