k

The average adult reportedly has approximately 10,000 taste buds, but
children have more, including some dotted along the inside of their cheeks.
Infants seem to arrive ==hard-wired to react to bitterness and sweetness,===
though the ability to detect saltiness takes six months or so to develop.
++++The childish craving for sweets typically declines during adolescence,
probably as a way of limiting caloric intake."++++


I'm not a sugar-phile (except for myself) but...that last sentence above is
worth noting for sugar-phobic parents of young pre-adolescent children. I
wouldn't judge the craving to be "childish" though. It's just a biological
fact of life.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Actually there is also a huge difference in the nutrients needed to grow brain and bones and muscle then the nutrients required to maintain it. When you limit your kids food intake based on what you feel is appropriate you are working from a model that is appropriate for later maintenance and not for earlier development. Sugar and fats are good for brains.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com



--------

The average adult reportedly has approximately 10,000 taste buds, but
children have more, including some dotted along the inside of their cheeks.
Infants seem to arrive ==hard-wired to react to bitterness and sweetness,===
though the ability to detect saltiness takes six months or so to develop.
++++The childish craving for sweets typically declines during adolescence,
probably as a way of limiting caloric intake."++++


I'm not a sugar-phile (except for myself) but...that last sentence above is
worth noting for sugar-phobic parents of young pre-adolescent children. I
wouldn't judge the craving to be "childish" though. It's just a biological
fact of life.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm not a sugar-phile (except for myself) but...that last sentence
above is
worth noting for sugar-phobic parents of young pre-adolescent
children. I
wouldn't judge the craving to be "childish" though. It's just a
biological
fact of life.-=-

AND...

People make a LOAD of noise about sugar being bad and giving kids
candy being the root cause of their desire for more candy, but I have
this to say about that:

taste baby formula

taste breast milk

(if you've never tasted any, next time you're around a supply, maybe
ask politely for some expressed into a little cup--just a few drops
will make the point)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

prism7513

> AND...
>
> People make a LOAD of noise about sugar being bad and giving kids
> candy being the root cause of their desire for more candy, but I have
> this to say about that:
>
> taste baby formula
>
> taste breast milk
>
> (if you've never tasted any, next time you're around a supply, maybe
> ask politely for some expressed into a little cup--just a few drops
> will make the point)
>


yes, I think it tastes like the milk in the bowl of sugary cereals!
Oh! how I miss those! (don't buy them because they are gone in a day
and can't justify the money...I'd rather have cookies!...but I'll have
to sometime let the kids choose some to try - they never have asked
because they don't know what they taste like...)

Deb

prism7513

I think, too, that if I could close my eyes and not watch what they
ate, or did, etc., that I'd be fine.

I honestly DO trust my kids more than what you think. What I DON'T
trust is myself. Let me explain.

Okay, I let my kids eat x amount of cookies. I think, "I'm such a
horrible mom! Maybe I shouldn't have done that...."

Most of this journey hasn't been about them, but about ME. I have
watched them wondrously become smart little beings who are creative,
bright, funny, caring, etc. I have poured out my time and energy into
letting them be who they want to be as much as possible.

But each step I've taken on this journey has been more stretching than
you might imagine. This stuff is so far removed from the way I have
always known things, and I've changed SO much in the past 6 years,
that I almost feel I don't know who I am anymore.

So it's hard for me to be confident. It's hard for me to "trust"
anything since I trusted my parents completely, and now I realize that
they weren't perfect, either. I don't trust myself at all...I can't
trust other parents who don't understand where I come from, and most
of the people who have been unschooling for awhile are SO confident
that it feels like "We have it all together, and you need to just get
your act together already!"

I'm trying...I really am. I'm not great at debating about something I
have no clue about. So I'm trying to ask questions to get deep answers
because I am the type of person that needs to be convinced of
something before I just go and do it (didn't someone on here mention
that their child was the same way because they choose to think before
acting?)

I have to play devil's advocate in order to prove to myself that what
I'm learning will hold up. So I hope you understand that I AM actually
on the road, traveling. I just haven't arrived, yet.

Thank you,

Deb

k

>>>>>>But each step I've taken on this journey has been more stretching than
you might imagine. This stuff is so far removed from the way I have
always known things, and I've changed SO much in the past 6 years,
that I almost feel I don't know who I am anymore.<<<<<<<

Join the club! I don't know who I am anymore either. I like my life better
now, BY FAR. But it's not familiar. Parts of it are. This is not exactly
180 degrees from the way I was brought up, in some ways. In other ways, it
doesn't even seem to be in the same universe. It's a bit uncomfortable
traveling to another galaxy and knowing that when you come back across all
the lightyears later the departure point where you sprang from has changed
too but not in the same way you have. Unsettling.

>>>>>>I'm trying...I really am. I'm not great at debating about something I
have no clue about. So I'm trying to ask questions to get deep answers
because I am the type of person that needs to be convinced of
something before I just go and do it (didn't someone on here mention
that their child was the same way because they choose to think before
acting?)<<<<<<<

If you wait until you're convinced, until all the traces of doubt have been
removed, too much time will have passed and your kids will be grown or half
grown. But in the meantime, continue to read and move through whatever you
need to in order to get more "in your skin."

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think, too, that if I could close my eyes and not watch what they
ate, or did, etc., that I'd be fine.-=-

Is this the goal of unschooling for you? For you to be fine?

Someone who speaks at unschooling conferences sometimes made a
statement that unschooling is giving a child as many choices as the
parent is comfortable giving. Huh. Maybe parents need to sacrifice
their comfort level for it to work. That speaker has three
children, all of whom have gone to school. Unschooling wasn't quite
at the children's comfort level in that family.



-=-It's hard for me to "trust" anything since I trusted my parents
completely, and now I realize that they weren't perfect, either. I
don't trust myself at all...I can't trust other parents who don't
understand where I come from,-=-

Why would you want to blindly trust other parents who DO understand
where you come from? Why would you want to trust anyone?

-=-I'm trying...I really am. I'm not great at debating about
something I have no clue about.-=-

Then don't debate. Just read. Think. Try things out with your kids
at home and watch them.

-=-So I'm trying to ask questions to get deep answers because I am
the type of person that needs to be convinced of something before I
just go and do it-=-

The "deep answers" won't make any sense if you aren't going to trust
anyone. You will need to do this yourself. Did you wait for deep
answers about how bicycles work before you rode a bicycle?

-=-I have to play devil's advocate in order to prove to myself that
what I'm learning will hold up.-=-

No, you don't "have to," and if you do it too much and too long, what
are your kids doing during that time?

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Please read that and the links. It will help your children. When
your children feel better you will feel fantastic.

-=-So I hope you understand that I AM actually on the road,
traveling. I just haven't arrived, yet.-=-

Nobody here's getting paid to help you. Everyone's volunteering. We
don't have to report your progress. You can take you time to get to
unschooling eventually, when your kids are older, or maybe understand
it well enough to help them with their kids someday if they decide
they wish you had unschooled them when they were little.

Although you're assuring us that your path is much harder than we
will expect (where do you think the rest of the 1800 people on this
list came from?), I think your children probably age at the same rate
everyone else's do--another day older every day. If you take your
time at this point, you're taking their time too.

Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> yes, I think it tastes like the milk in the bowl of sugary cereals!
> Oh! how I miss those! (don't buy them because they are gone in a day
> and can't justify the money...I'd rather have cookies!...but I'll have
> to sometime let the kids choose some to try - they never have asked
> because they don't know what they taste like...)
>


WAIT! Your kidding right?!!! The sugary cereal stuff is probably the
cheapest you CAN buy! At least in the US, I don't know about other
locations, but the big box mart kind of stores sell this stuff really
cheap! Your kids could eat and eat and get sick of it for very little
money! Homemade cookies could cost more depending on the ingredients
you put in them.

As a nice example of a kid who is forbidden such things, just look at
Calvin and Hobbes. That poor Calvin is always inventing ways of getting
into the cookie jar and longing for Saturday morning to eat his frosted
sugar bombs with cartoons and wishing it would last forever!

carnationsgalore

> So it's hard for me to be confident. It's hard for me to "trust"
> anything since I trusted my parents completely, and now I realize
> that they weren't perfect, either. I don't trust myself at all...

It's a do-over! Stop worrying about perfection which is unreachable
anyway. Be your children's partner. Learn alongside them. My kids
know I'm in uncharted territory. They really like that we're all in
this together. :)

Beth M.

Joyce Fetteroll

> I don't trust myself at all...I can't
> trust other parents who don't understand where I come from, and most
> of the people who have been unschooling for awhile are SO confident
> that it feels like "We have it all together, and you need to just get
> your act together already!"
>

I'm betting there are few people here who don't understand where
you're coming from. But you're in essence focusing on your spinning
wheels asking us if they'll ever stop spinning. And we're saying it
doesn't help to look at the spinning wheels. It helps to look at
where you'd like to be.

Sometimes just focusing on where you want to be can make all the
difference!

> So I'm trying to ask questions to get deep answers
> because I am the type of person that needs to be convinced of
> something before I just go and do it
>
Actually what your words have asked for are the surface answers, eg,
do classes damage kids as much as school? The answer (yes or no)
doesn't get to why. As much as the engineer in me would like the
world to be nothing but yes or no ;-) it's not that orderly. Most of
the time the answer is "It depends." And that's where deep begins.

The deep answers get into goals and philosophy.

I think what you're asking is "Does this work?" But you haven't
clearly defined what "this" is to yourself and you're not sure if our
"this" matches yours. If you were certain our "this" matched yours,
then you wouldn't need to ask *if* kids bodies will find the right
balance (another question designed for a yes or no answer). Because
if kids bodies don't find the right balance, then we're a bunch of
loonies with kids who do nothing but watch TV and eat cookies and you
shouldn't be asking us!

The questions that will help you get to the deep stuff aren't the yes/
no questions but the how and why questions.

> So I guess the question is, will the kids figure out what's good for
> them in spite of "bad" conditions, or do I need to change the
> conditions in order to better favor their bodies needs?
>

It depends!

And it's another yes/no question and won't dig deep.

The healthier the model -- and model implies the ideas aren't being
imposed -- the more likely they'll eat healthy. It's not the only
factor, though. Nothing's that easy when it comes to humans.

If mom smokes and tells kids not to smoke, what are the chances the
kids will smoke? Is it different if the mom doesn't smoke and tells
the kids not to smoke? The answer is: it depends!

If mom doesn't smoke and shares honestly about why *she* chose not to
smoke -- and the kids aren't in school -- the chances that the kids
will smoke will go down. It comes down to trust and freedom.

Joyce

prism7513

> If you wait until you're convinced, until all the traces of doubt
have been
> removed, too much time will have passed and your kids will be grown
or half
> grown. But in the meantime, continue to read and move through
whatever you
> need to in order to get more "in your skin."
>
Luckily, I'm not waiting. But as I'm moving, I'm putting out feelers.
Like a snail, perhaps, testing the "waters", if you will, as he moves
along. I am moving forward, but I always test things first. Otherwise,
aren't I simply being a sheep to the unschooling shepherd?
Unschooling, like anything else, should be able to be examined and
tested and hashed about. If it's true, it will hold up. If it's for
me, I will feel at peace.

The first changes I made were as a mother and parent. Then this past
two years it's been as a person and my faith. And now it's as a parent
yet again...always changing, testing, questioning. And sometimes I
just want to rest and be SURE that I'm "okay." I am such a darn people
pleaser and I so want to be right, and for once I just wish I didn't
care what people thought, and just did what *I* want to do, but then I
don't really know what that is...

At this point, like in the past 6 years, I feel pressure more from the
people I'm moving TOWARDS, in this case, all of you wonderful people
here! I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong, like I'm
one of you, a part of something. I know that's not at all what it's
about, but that feeling is still present. It's been there since the
first grade when I first became an outsider.

While I mostly feel confident in who I am and the decisions I make,
the other part of me just wishes I could be like everyone else and not
fight the system. No home births, no nursing toddlers in public, no
homeschooling, whatever. I hate being the odd ball out. And yet at
night when I think about my choices, I'd have it no other way. But I
do wish I had someone to travel this road with. I DO have my DH and my
family (the kids, not extended) who have wholeheartedly supported me
every step of the way, but it's nice to have other mothers who share
your ideals.

Deb

prism7513

>
> Is this the goal of unschooling for you? For you to be fine?
>

It's not the goal of unschooling, but it IS the goal of parenting.
When I die, I want to know I've done the best job I can at raising my
children, and the part of me that decides whether I'm doing well or
not - that instinct or conscience or WHATever it is that gives me
peace at night...if it's not there, then I'm not doing my job. I'm not
talking about comfort zone "fine." I'm talking about knowing I've done
my job "fine."


> Why would you want to blindly trust other parents who DO understand
> where you come from? Why would you want to trust anyone?

I don't - thus the questioning...

>
> Then don't debate. Just read. Think. Try things out with your kids
> at home and watch them.

I feel the need to answer the questions that are asked in my
direction. I AM trying things out. I AM watching my kids

> The "deep answers" won't make any sense if you aren't going to trust
> anyone. You will need to do this yourself. Did you wait for deep
> answers about how bicycles work before you rode a bicycle?

I was five and believed anything anyone told me.


>
> Nobody here's getting paid to help you. Everyone's volunteering. We
> don't have to report your progress. You can take you time to get to
> unschooling eventually, when your kids are older, or maybe understand
> it well enough to help them with their kids someday if they decide
> they wish you had unschooled them when they were little.

First off, I'm not sure why you said this. I thought this group was
for people to learn the ins and outs of unschooling. On the homepage
it says "What will help? What will hinder?" That's all I'm trying to
figure out. Maybe I'm off base, but I thought that people learn by
asking questions, or at least SOME people learn that way, and I am one
of them. Always have been. Why do you insinuate that I'm NOT
unschooling simply because I'm questioning the details? My kids have
no set schedule, eat when they want, and mostly what they want (hence
the questions about food so I can learn more about how you do that),
they play when and where and what they want. They create all the time,
and ask questions constantly. Just because I'm trying to define what,
exactly, I need to be as an unschooling parent doesn't mean we aren't
unschooling currently. The journey isn't over, but it doesn't mean it
hasn't begun.


> Although you're assuring us that your path is much harder than we
> will expect (where do you think the rest of the 1800 people on this
> list came from?),

When did I say that?


I think your children probably age at the same rate
> everyone else's do--another day older every day. If you take your
> time at this point, you're taking their time too.
>
> Sandra


I'm not sure I said I needed to take time on anything - I was asking
the people on this list to be patient with me for asking so many
questions because I obviously haven't gotten to the place where you
are yet that you are so comfortable with your decisions.

And if it seems that I am being self-centered, then I'm not sure what
you expect from me. I am trying to change my thinking and outlook and
way of doing things so that my kids can learn in freedom. Maybe you
are the kind of person who can just do something without thinking it
through and asking everyone around you about it. I'm not, at least not
yet.

You encourage your children to test things and to question things, and
that is all I am doing. Why can't I question unschooling like I do
other things that I learn?

As for the bike analogy. If I were to learn to ride a bike today,
never having ridden one before, then I probably WOULD question
everything about it. "where do you put your foot?" "but what about
your other foot?" "what about when I start to fall off and I loose my
balance?" "should I peddle fast, or slow?" "are you going to hold on
to me?"

When my daughter asked me today as she tried her "new" used bike that
she could just barely reach, "What if I fall?" I didn't tell her to
just go out there and find out. I replied, "If you start to feel like
you're going to fall, then move off into the grass where you'll slow
down and falling won't hurt as bad. But just in case, I'll also jog
behind you and if I see you waver, I'll catch you."

I had hoped that this list was a place I could learn more about the
finer details of unschooling in a positive way. Maybe this is why
people seek support of a different kind. I don't need to you pat me on
the back if I'm not doing things the right way, but at the same time
it would be nice to have the offer of "I'll hold your hand through this."

It's obvious that I can't just "do it" as you keep saying, because
when I tried, in the store, I apparently got it wrong. I redirected my
son's words instead of ....well, I still don't know what I should have
done. Sitting and playing with the toys isn't really an option for me
because the two babies get tired of shopping now as it is, and they
don't like sitting in the cart, so I have to get done quickly in order
to keep them happy.

And when you gave the suggestion to the other poster about telling the
kid to be quiet while she was driving, "and mean it." I thought, "but
how does that fit into letting him have a choice?"

I'm just not THERE, yet. I'm still on the path, I'm still unschooling,
but I don't have all the details. And just doing it won't bring them,
because I'm not sure what to do in place of the things I've been doing.

Apparently I'm getting the point of this forum wrong, too.

I'm sorry, I truly am. I didn't mean to waste your time.

Deb

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am moving forward, but I always test things first. Otherwise,
aren't I simply being a sheep to the unschooling shepherd?
Unschooling, like anything else, should be able to be examined and
tested and hashed about. If it's true, it will hold up. If it's for
me, I will feel at peace.-=-

But you test it in and with yourself at home, not on this list.

Do you mean you're testing US? To see if we can defend unschooling?

-=-I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong, like I'm one
of you, a part of something. -=-

What people will like here is to feel that you're really thinking and
changing, not that you're just writing and writing and writing
without reading and being more closely with your family. What people
LOVE here is for people to get it and to express that by telling
stories about their actions with their kids. No amount of recitation
will impress people. After a while it gets irritating.

Read these, please.

http://sandradodd.com/gettingit

http://sandradodd.com/peace/becoming.html

http://sandradodd.com/change

They're all about the changes in people's lives when they change from
talking about being more mindful to really BEING more mindful.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

> Then don't debate. Just read. Think. Try things out with your kids
> at home and watch them.

-=-I feel the need to answer the questions that are asked in my
direction. -=-

The list isn't about your needs. It's about discussing unschooling.
Most of the questions people ask are questions asked rhetorically, in
order for you to clarify your own thinking, so that you can see the
flaws in your reasoning. They're not asking because they need to
know, usually, but because they think you need to think about the
answers to move closer to unschooling.

If what you need is to be involved in a discussion of unschooling,
this list will be great for you!

-=-I AM trying things out. I AM watching my kids-=-

Not while you're writing to the list you're not.

You haven't had time to see how these things play out at your house
before you're back writing more and more.

-=-Did you wait for deep answers about how bicycles work before you
rode a bicycle?

**I was five and believed anything anyone told me.

This misses the point. You didn't NEED to know how bicycles worked
before you could ride one. You were five, but you were able to ride
a bike without waiting to understand mechanics and physics. You can
unschool without a million words passing between you and the list.
You canNOT unschool if you wait until a million words pass.

-=-I'm not sure I said I needed to take time on anything - I was
asking the people on this list to be patient with me for asking so
many questions because I obviously haven't gotten to the place where
you are yet that you are so comfortable with your decisions.-=-

This is the kind of writing that neither helps you nor others on the
list. We don't need to be patient. You need to read what people are
sending you more and post less. You WILL get it if you read a
while, try some things, and only send your real, new questions, and
your successes and thoughts that will help other unschoolers. There
are lots of people reading, but if the list is too busy and
repetitive, fewer will read. So I've asked regularly and often that
people not post "me too" or "thanks," and that they're careful to
send what will help other people understand unschooling.

The purpose of the list is to discuss what helps and what hurts, and
we've been doing that. Anyone can dip a cup in and partake of the
discussion, or make requests for topics, or throw situations out, but
no one can try to subvert the flow of the list toward a different
direction.

It's about ideas, not about individuals.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-And when you gave the suggestion to the other poster about telling
the
kid to be quiet while she was driving, "and mean it." I thought, "but
how does that fit into letting him have a choice?"-=-

I provide my children with choices and options. I'm not bound to
provide the same privileges for neighbors, friends or relatives. If
a kid comes over and wants to hit my kid, that's not one of his
choices. If a stranger wants to come over and kick my dog or break
my windows, that's not a choice I'm willing to give him.

But then again, my own kids don't hit each other or kick the dog or
break windows. And they don't tell me how to drive, unless they do
it kindly and helpfully. If they kept on after I had asked them to
stop, I would say to be quiet while I was driving, and I would mean it.

-=-I'm just not THERE, yet. I'm still on the path, I'm still
unschooling, but I don't have all the details. And just doing it
won't bring them, because I'm not sure what to do in place of the
things I've been doing. -=-

People have been pouring alternative ideas and links toward you for
days. Read them. Read them again. Try them out.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 26, 2008, at 9:51 PM, prism7513 wrote:

> I feel the need to answer the questions that are asked in my
> direction. I AM trying things out. I AM watching my kids

They are asked for you to think about, not to get you to reveal all to
us.

-pam

carnationsgalore

> At this point, like in the past 6 years, I feel pressure more from
> the people I'm moving TOWARDS, in this case, all of you wonderful
> people here! I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong,
> like I'm one of you, a part of something.

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's taking me a long time
to deal with that feeling and honestly, I'm still working on it.

Hear my gentle tone when I remind you that this is an ideas list and
not a support group. I think that is one reason people get so
offended and want to leave. They are looking for friends who will
hold their hand and walk them softly through the unschooling
journey. Maybe if you had someone in person with that kind of
personality, it would be really great. But this list won't really do
that for you.

When unschooling really started clicking for me, it was because of
the changes I was making in my own lifestyle. Sometimes, I probably
sound like many of these wonderful ladies when I talk about
unschooling online. But I'm not a part of a club or anything. I
don't have any real life unschooling friends. I have never met the
majority of these ladies. But my life is joyful. It's very freeing
to start unschooling yourself! This list helps you ask the questions
and will suggest some ways to find the answers.

> I DO have my DH and my
> family (the kids, not extended) who have wholeheartedly supported me
> every step of the way, but it's nice to have other mothers who share
> your ideals.

Yes Deb, I've always felt that way too. But in all the groups I've
been in, I've seen just how different everyone really is. One common
cause does not make a best friend. Even when I was using curriculum
and belonged to a homeschooling group of families who also used
curriculum, I still felt like an outsider. I finally realized that I
really had nothing in common with them other than the fact that we
were homeschooling our children.

I suggest you find ways to make your life joyful. Stop worrying
about whether or not you belong, or what group of people might be
like you. If you act like you doing the things you enjoy doing,
you'll naturally meet other people who like some of the same things.
You might have one person that you love shopping with, and one person
who loves to go the movies with you, and one person who loves to sit
by the pool and shoot the breeze. But you may not find someone who
will fill all your needs. Does that make sense?

carnationsgalore

> At this point, like in the past 6 years, I feel pressure more from
> the people I'm moving TOWARDS, in this case, all of you wonderful
> people here! I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong,
> like I'm one of you, a part of something.

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's taken me a long time
to deal with that feeling and honestly, I'm still working on it.

Hear my gentle tone when I remind you that this is an ideas list and
not a support group. I think that is one reason people get so
offended and want to leave. They are looking for friends who will
hold their hand and walk them softly through the unschooling
journey. Maybe if you had someone in person with that kind of
personality, it would be really great. But this list won't really do
that for you.

When unschooling really started clicking for me, it was because of
the changes I was making in my own lifestyle. Sometimes, I probably
sound like many of these wonderful ladies when I talk about
unschooling online. But I'm not a part of a club or anything. I
don't have any real life unschooling friends. I have never met the
majority of these ladies. But my life is joyful. It's very freeing
to start unschooling yourself! This list helps you ask the questions
and will suggest some ways to find the answers.

> I DO have my DH and my
> family (the kids, not extended) who have wholeheartedly supported me
> every step of the way, but it's nice to have other mothers who share
> your ideals.

Yes Deb, I've always felt that way too. But in all the groups I've
been in, I've seen just how different everyone really is. One common
cause does not make a best friend. Even when I was using curriculum
and belonged to a homeschooling group of families who also used
curriculum, I still felt like an outsider. I finally realized that I
really had nothing in common with them other than the fact that we
were homeschooling our children.

I suggest you find ways to make your life joyful. Stop worrying
about whether or not you belong, or what group of people might be
like you. If you act like you doing the things you enjoy doing,
you'll naturally meet other people who like some of the same things.
You might have one person that you love shopping with, and one person
who loves to go the movies with you, and one person who loves to sit
by the pool and shoot the breeze. But you may not find someone who
will fill all your needs. Does that make sense?

Beth M.

carnationsgalore

> And when you gave the suggestion to the other poster about telling the
> kid to be quiet while she was driving, "and mean it." I thought, "but
> how does that fit into letting him have a choice?"

I'm wondering if you are thinking that an unschooling lifestyle means
freedom to do anything you want. It's not quite like that. In the
example above about the child being a backseat driver, he wasn't
looking for choices to explore life. He was being rude and distracting
the driver which is dangerous.

I've seen other homeschoolers talk about unschooling and they equate it
with unparenting. I've seen them say stuff like, 'But if I let my
child do anything they want, they'll run into the street and get hit by
a car!' Now think about that. What child would intentionally run into
the street to get hit by a car? But in these parent's lives, their
child running away is something that has happened. Why would the child
feel a need to run away? Because the parent isn't listening to and
respecting the child. Maybe the child just wanted to run. So in that
case, the parent should find a safe place for the child to run. Maybe
the child didn't want to get into the car. Let's question why not. Is
it too hot in the car? Is he not ready to go home or to the store?
The kids don't listen because they've learned it from their parents,
who don't listen to them.

This list is great for learning things like that. :)

Beth M.

Jenny C

> Yes Deb, I've always felt that way too. But in all the groups I've
> been in, I've seen just how different everyone really is. One common
> cause does not make a best friend. Even when I was using curriculum
> and belonged to a homeschooling group of families who also used
> curriculum, I still felt like an outsider. I finally realized that I
> really had nothing in common with them other than the fact that we
> were homeschooling our children.
>


One of my favorite homeschooling families that I really connect with has
never ever claimed to be unschooling. They have one child who is a
teen. They've always done what I guess people call relaxed
homeschooling. However, the amount of respect and consideration they
give their daughter is amazing and wonderful. It's a little of the the
reverse of unschooling everything but math and bedtimes. Their life is
really all about what they can do for and with their daughter that will
make her happy and content and allow her to flourish.

I've met other unschooling families claiming to be unschooling, but
having school rooms set up in their house and heavily regulating video
games and food and stuff. I think that's weird, I mean, why put a label
on yourself that doesn't even begin to describe what your about?

I've met a few unschoolers IRL, even a few that live near me, but I
don't ever see them even though I think the world of them for a variety
of reasons, (MLewis, Emily...).

One way that helped me feel accepted was to go to a conference and put
myself out there. I can be secure within myself, but it is nice to feel
a sense of belonging with something bigger than oneself.

Jenny C

> And when you gave the suggestion to the other poster about telling the
> kid to be quiet while she was driving, "and mean it." I thought, "but
> how does that fit into letting him have a choice?"
>


First he isn't your kid. If he's not behaving in a manner that is
helping you get him from point A to point B safely and calmly, it should
be addressed, and if he isn't responding to nicey nice, be very clear
and blunt and be firm in what you want.

I know what works and what doesn't with my own kids. I know which words
to use and what tone of voice works best when I really need something
from them. Other kids that are from other families won't be the same.
Over the years, I've found that a lot of kids don't respond to asking
nice, I think because at home asking nice was just a polite way to
demand something, and kids learn to ignore that. So, with kids that are
used to that, it's better to be firm and direct and clear that you mean
what you say.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 27, 2008, at 4:01 AM, carnationsgalore wrote:

>> At this point, like in the past 6 years, I feel pressure more from
>> the people I'm moving TOWARDS, in this case, all of you wonderful
>> people here! I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong,
>> like I'm one of you, a part of something.

Try to make it about doing something wonderful for your kids, not
about feeling part of a movement, making friends, feeling supported,
or anything else that is about you.

-pam

k

Oh Karl too! Brian not so much. But me and Karl love our uncharted
territory. :) Brian is beginning to enjoy some parts of it. He will
eventually enjoy it much more than he is now. He's just dipping his toes in
every now and again, and he learns a little bit every time. I "splash" him
with a bit and he gets a little to avoid him getting completely dried out
between times. The adventure aspect can be mighty contagious.

~Katherine




On 9/26/08, carnationsgalore <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> > So it's hard for me to be confident. It's hard for me to "trust"
> > anything since I trusted my parents completely, and now I realize
> > that they weren't perfect, either. I don't trust myself at all...
>
> It's a do-over! Stop worrying about perfection which is unreachable
> anyway. Be your children's partner. Learn alongside them. My kids
> know I'm in uncharted territory. They really like that we're all in
> this together. :)
>
> Beth M.
>
>
>


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k

Crap I did it again. The quote disappears out from under my reply.
Sorry. Here is my post again:


Oh Karl too! Brian not so much. But me and Karl love our uncharted
territory. :) Brian is beginning to enjoy some parts of it. He will
eventually enjoy it much more than he is now. He's just dipping his toes in
every now and again, and he learns a little bit every time. I "splash" him
with a bit and he gets a little to avoid him getting completely dried out
between times. The adventure aspect can be mighty contagious.

~Katherine


On 9/26/08, carnationsgalore <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> >>> So it's hard for me to be confident. It's hard for me to "trust"
> >>> anything since I trusted my parents completely, and now I realize
> >>> that they weren't perfect, either. I don't trust myself at all...
>
> >It's a do-over! Stop worrying about perfection which is unreachable
> >anyway. Be your children's partner. Learn alongside them. My kids
> >know I'm in uncharted territory. They really like that we're all in
> >this together. :)
>
> >Beth M.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

There's a whole bunch of us here who are replying to your posts. Some of
that is "we understand where you're coming from" and "we'd like helping
people understand what we've come to love about unschooling and the life
we're embracing."

I don't really know you. I wish I could say ... "I like you." So far, the
best I can do from here at my computer across the miles of wire online is "I
think I like you" and "I don't dislike you" and "sure, let's talk as much as
you like about unschooling ... I *luv* that!"


>>>>>>Unschooling, like anything else, should be able to be examined and
tested and hashed about.<<<<<<

Reread what you wrote above. What does "examine," "test," and "hash about"
have to do with "unschooling?"

It sounds more like school to me.

~Katherine


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k

>>>>>Maybe I'm off base, but I thought that people learn by asking
questions, or at least SOME people learn that way, and I am one of
them.<<<<<

Maybe you're selling yourself short. Broaden those horizons, stretch
yourself some more. Come on, you can do it. Asking questions is but *one*
way to learn.

Observe.
Experiment.
Brainstorm.
Share.
Give.
Receive.
Write.
Talk.
Run.
Walk.
Swim.
Surf.

Stretch yourself on out there and realize that you *are* always learning in
a myriad of ways.

~Katherine


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Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe I'm off base, but I thought that people learn by asking
questions, or at least SOME people learn that way, and I am one of
them.-=-



People learn by thinking.

Some people can ask a question to their diary, and over the course of
a few days or weeks or months, figure out the answer.

Some people ask a question of someone they think might know, but
asking the question isn't learning. Trying to understand the answer,
thinking about it, trying it out--that *might* lead to learning.

Asking a question, and then another and another and another and not
listening to the answers and saying "I know but" and "yeah but" isn't
learning.

Someone once assured me she had read my whole website, about the
third day she had been around. I seriously doubt anyone here has
read my whole website. That's fine! It's not meant to be read
throughout. It's a resource center, an archive. Saying "Yeah, yeah,
I read all that, but..." is a problem.

Deschooling takes a long time. Months. Lots of tools and tricks are
on my site and Joyce's--enough to get people started, and the list
can help them people with rough spots and unexpected incidents, and
it's a good place to share successes and progress.

I really like this list, even when it's not going smoothly, and even
when there's a quiet day or week.

Thanks, all of you who stick around a while to help even after you
don't need it so much yourself. I really appreciate it.



Sandra

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lyeping2008

--- In [email protected], "prism7513" <penley75@...>
wrote:
> Luckily, I'm not waiting. But as I'm moving, I'm putting out
feelers. Like a snail, perhaps, testing the "waters", if you will,
as he moves along. I am moving forward, but I always test things
first.


It is a long and comprehensive thread which I've finally caught up.
So this is what've I understood so far from each and every post.

Like you, I too question things alot. I also dissect and analyse
situations, and mull over it. I then to solve my own problems and
issues, which makes me unique and alone. Occasionally I get stuck, I
have since learnt to ask for help. I do not follow any shepard but I
do listen and adopt from their experiences and methods that works
for me. Most of which goes thru tweakings here and there, to make
them mine.

Please bear in mind, my message and tone here is gentle and caring.
It is not my intention to tell you off, or sound cruel.

> At this point, like in the past 6 years, I feel pressure more from
the people I'm moving TOWARDS, in this case, all of you wonderful
people here! I want you to like me, I want to feel like I belong,
like I'm one of you, a part of something. I know that's not at all
what it's about, but that feeling is still present. It's been there
since the first grade when I first became an outsider.

I do not know you, so I cannot like you nor hate you. I can truly
understand the feeling of feeling an outsider. I'm a foreigner,
living in UK, i have only 1 or 2 friends. I too have always been an
outsider, coming from a background of my parents spliting up,
remarried, moved away leaving me behind with my grandma.

You will not feel belong if you're constantly seeing yourself un-
worthy of anything just because you've not learn enough or do
enough. Just because you cannot measure your doings by means of
praises or approval, you do not think you're equal enough to anyone!
So, you're an oddball. So am I. Now does help makes you feel less
alone? Or do you resent being label as such, and will outcast me
because you do not wanna be in my group?

You have to stop deciding what's constitute as right, and what's
constitute as wrong. How many rights do you have to do before making
it to the aproval-able state? How many ticks off the checklist you
must have before it's classified as acceptable.

You are already part of something even tho you don't see it. We all
classified ourselves differently - enlightened, happy, intelligent,
open minded, advance, far sighted, loving, caring and many more. But
most of all, we are all unique, individual unschooling families.
You, like all of us ARE different - accept that! We are all
considered so because until unschooling becomes a majority, we are
not the norm.

Here's the advice - I am part of many lists. I have emailed you a
group which I think might possibly be good for you. You may not
accept it but I do not expect you to reply. I believe even in
unschooling lists, there are certain levels. I'm finally at the
level I think I can understand what Sandra and the others are
saying, which is why I'm here. In my early days, I too would have
been like you, questioning naively thier wisdom.

I've since discovered that there is such a thing as being on a wrong
list, at a wrong time. The fact that Sandra is actually very nice
and polite is in contrast to views I'ev understood from other new
unschoolers, one year ago.

> While I mostly feel confident in who I am and the decisions I make,
> the other part of me just wishes I could be like everyone else and
not fight the system. No home births, no nursing toddlers in public,
no homeschooling, whatever. I hate being the odd ball out. And yet at
> night when I think about my choices, I'd have it no other way. But
I do wish I had someone to travel this road with.

Your full confidence is not there yet. You have to continue work to
eradicate the other half.

Finding the right list is like finding your kindred spirit, a
healing balm to your soul. Just like any other organisations, be it
the choir or football or reading club, they all have distinct
personality and voices.

This list is not the place to be airing your insecurities,
questioning your unhappy state because it seems like your
unschooling is going well. It's only your own insecurities that's
playing up.

And with all the numerous replies you've recieved, you have yet hear
the right thing that can help snap you out of it. Because of that,
you retaliate your refusal by stating you're doing the opposite,
Like you did to Katherine's "waiting".

Katherine gives alot of her time here and a few more group. I resent
your rebelling, and snapping back at her kindness!!! I think you
should keep your anger and frustration of your confusion to
yourself, and not let it spill out onto the group.

This is not a therapy group, and we dont' need to put up with your
defensive and bear the brunt of your "refusing to let go that last
bit of comfort blanket" manner. Do not muse out loud on the
postings, because we will take it as your answer to us.

We are here to help anyone who needs it, the best we can. You have
baggage and issues, so do a few of us. The fact that we are not
ignoring you, say enough that you are part of this group. But the
replies will soon end because that's what happens when you snap at
the hand that reaches out to you.

>I am such a darn people pleaser and I so want to be right, and for
once I just wish I didn't care what people thought, and just did
what *I* want to do, but then I don't really know what that is...

Here's the advice - Only please those who DESERVES YOU- so decide
who they are!! Otherwise, ignore the rest because you do not
benefit kindess and happiness from them. Stop living your life
according to anybody's rules, because you are not them.

Stop being such a perfectionist!!! There is no hard and fast rules
in unschooling, other than the basics - we do not co-erced. We treat
and respect our kids - which is seems you are already doing.
Becareful when considering other people's opinion. I have this line
I use on my family and friends. If it's not helpful, I dont' want to
hear about it.

Do not compare. What we unschooler is doing, and you're not. We are
all very unique in our very own ways which is why unschooling works,
and "cookie cutter" school system don't. So just read more, explore
and consider each and every unschooling option you can think, nt
forgetting all the replies you've got.

Take what's relevant, disregard what's not. But be gracious about it
by not challenging their beliefs. I am happy to share and explain my
beliefs if someone wants to learn, but I can be very rude if they
are questioning my beliefs and decisions for my family.

Like you said "examined and tested and hashed about". Until you've
done and hashed out mentally what's suggested, do not tell us it
doesn't work!

I don't know everyone here personally but I accept that I am part of
this group just as much as everyone, in the short period of less
than a month here. I don't need an object or any signal to state I'm
accepted or not here. I just made myself part of it- just like that.

You mentioned wanting to move forward but on the other hand you're
struggling. You asked for help but yet refused to accept our advice.
But still you're asking.

Your justification for this:-
> Otherwise,aren't I simply being a sheep to the unschooling
shepherd? >If it's true, it will hold up. If it's for
me, I will feel at peace. The first changes I made were as a mother
and parent. Then this past two years it's been as a person and my
faith. And now it's as a parent yet again...always changing,
testing, questioning. And sometimes I just want to rest and be SURE
that I'm "okay."

It's not so hard fo rme to see why, if you have been unschooling for
so long, why you are still so unsure and suffering. It seems to me
you are still hanging onto rules that's been banged into your head
since young. You still have a need to please and seek approval in
order to reflect that you're on the right path. In the past few
years, you did everything you think is best for your kid, without
analysing and understand why you're doing it. You were effectively
being the sheep, following the shepard?

Which explains this panic and unsure of yourself. Which is why you
cannot defend your beliefs. Which is why you feel odd, compared to
the people surrounding you because they are just so confident in
what they believe in, and you're not.

Why are you asking these questions now, when you have been
unschooling for so long?

We cannot tell you if you're right or wrong. Because we don't know
you and your circumstances. But I can tell you, the fact you're
asking question, perhaps maybe your unschooling is finally
beginning. You're no longer blindly doing and following things, you
are finally questioning the logic, and suitability, and application
of certain unschooling practices. You are finally awake, realising
that you need to fix yourself because there's so many loopholes in
your beliefs. And you are getting fed-up of feeling defenseless,
unable to defend all the goodness and right-ness of your unschooling
decisions when your parenting skills and choice is being contested
by society.

Or perhaps the answer can be simpler. YOU'RE BURNT OUT!!
Quite a common thing to happen. Take a few weeks out of being so
concern about what other people thinks, and do some soul searching
and analyse your life, and where you're going. It's only thinking,
so you can have full permission to daydream as far fethced as you
want, visulise how you want to feel and indulge in that glory. Think
of how you can formulate your answers of defense when being
challenged on your ideas.

Remind yourself everytime, you're doing your best, and in time
you'll understand better. When the going gets tough, just surrender
to the defeat, throw your hands in the air, and breath out, and
forget it! Remind yourself that you have so many other options to
explore.

Unschooling is all about confidence and faith, of your love for your
kids. Keep your love for your kids as your beacon of sanity. In my
early days of unschooling, I too do things I don't understand other
that I know it's the best for my kid, and eventually it will makes
sense to me - that's my hold to sanity. Remind yourself that if
you're unhappy, they will feel it. So it is important that you do
what you can to make yourself happy again.

Again don't be the perfectionist and think to yourself that you need
that expensive dinner or that spa taht you can't afford. Be
realistic, if you can't have that, what next best options you have?

Indulge yourself - throw your caution to air and to hell with it.
Put some music on and go crazy dancing to your favourite song. I put
Abba if I'm defiant, Andrea Borcelli on if I'm feeling sorry for
myself. I have been know to go to great lenghts cooking my favourite
food to cheer myself up. I have many times crawled back into bed
with my child and read or daydream.

My sanity recuperation is every evening on bed, catching up on my
reading, son watching Youtube or video.

I hope this is of help to you in some ways. Pls excuse the typos,
i'm short on time here.

Best Wishes
SharonBugs.

k

>>>>>We cannot tell you if you're right or wrong. Because we don't know
you and your circumstances. But I can tell you, the fact you're
asking question, perhaps maybe your unschooling is finally
beginning. You're no longer blindly doing and following things, you
are finally questioning the logic, and suitability, and application
of certain unschooling practices. You are finally awake.<<<<<

I really think what you said here... "finally awake" ...is exactly what
often happens of a long time unschooling enthusiast who has yet to come full
circle and make the life they envisioned their own.

I do sometimes get concerned with how to better make unschooling available.
The ideas are so abundantly here! Yet here we are, most of us having gone
to school and many weighed down with baggage. I like what someone said
(Robyn I think) about seeing childhood baggage as no longer part of
childhood, which is past, but as now part of our current lives!! We can win
then and win now, improving and healing both our present and our past, and
unschooling is sort of like a time machine window for doing that. What a
great thing.

Once a person wakes up (and has the distinct possibility of coming full
circle and making unschooling one's own), much of what still lies before a
person to work through seems overwhelming and incongruent with the goal to
realize a happy life that's fluidly inclusive of the wonderful freeing
principles of unschooling.

There must be quite a few approaches for doing it. There must be as many
ways as there are to learn anything else.

One approach is to refrain from meditating by direct thought on
inconsistencies. Instead meditate with some side activity along with your
thinking. (Side activities can be thought of as a similar notion to
Sandra's Truck analogy but with oneself rather than with others in this
instance). Activity that sort of puts brain chatter to the left of present
conversation has some great benefits. One benefit is to be convinced that
you are learning even when you're not directly concentrating on it.

Some examples of such activities:
yoga
draw/scribbling in sand/dirt
play with clay
sand art
work puzzles
play solitaire, tetris, computer games

Some people need more. Therapy doesn't always have to be talking and
thinking more about ourselves when we don't want to. We can get into
self-directed therapy ... like dance, art, music. If there's no class
billed as therapy, take an art, dance or music class with the intent of
distracting oneself from an over analyzing tendency. If we need more
attention, a great thing to do is get a massage or go to a day spa or more
cheaply, go get made up at the makeup counter.

~Katherine


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