Why I call it "the public fool system" - partial response to comments
firstgoddessfirst
Like I've always said - there's no use having an opinion if you're not
prepared, or willing, to defend it & I'm happy to see strong opinions
- it makes for much more in-depth discussions & I'm totally happy to
reveal how I came to my conclusions. I respect everyone on this list
& I think I'm safe to say that most of us are unconventional, even
visionary thinkers - even if some have 'had' to un-unschool their
children based on pressure from people or circumstances, the fact that
they're on this list means that many more people are, at least,
exposed to the concept. Of course, some may be here to make judgments
& use this list's attitudes & revelations as a way to formulate
arguments against unschooling. I'm not so naive as to believe this is
impossible.
My opinions are not based on some heinous happenings, bad memories
(although I was teased for wearing glasses, being a bookworm and my
religious beliefs) or vendetta - in fact I was taught in 3rd grade by
grandmother! - I used to walk to school with her - some of my best
memories ever! - However, she was old-school strict & retired early,
regretfully, due to parental interference - although she'd have past
students come visit her at least once a week, telling the class that
she was their favorite teacher ever! My uncle is/was a principal (not
sure if he's retired) & there were many educators in my family -
All-in-all, I had a rather good, successful, school experience - did
well, had a good rep, graduated with honors & was offered a 4-yr
scholarship to LSU based on my ACT score. So, I really have no axe to
grind. I didn't know anyone who was home-schooled whilst growing up,
but I did know quite a few people who left as soon as they reached the
'legal' age to do so & who had the truant officer tracking them down
before they reached the appropriate age.
BTW - I didn't come up with that appellation, however, I did 13 years
in it - so based on personal experience I thought it a clever
catch-all phrase - remember - almost EVERYBODY from politicians to
criminals (is there a difference?...) came from a public school system
- except for those small percentage who got private
schooling/tutoring, obviously. Whatever was "good" about the system
is mostly gone & as was pointed out several times by others - it's
more for social interaction or the so-called 'socialization' which
DOES NOT mean acquiring more social graces (so parents think) although
it definitely teaches A LOT about human nature & competition - it
means becoming more acclimated to a certain/particular controlled
environment ('official' definition(s) at the end of the email) - And
did anyone know that in some states, parents can actually GO TO JAIL
if their kids miss too much school - I'm serious! (Again, I know of
someone who really experienced this scenario.)
I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are taking
issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
intolerant one - below is the govt's idea (pretty recent, I might add,
and chilling...) please note that it does not mention the 3 R's,
critical thinking, career skills, etc as the primary purpose, which
makes them, at the highest, secondary, I'm looking for the whole
decision, to see if these aspects are mentioned at all:
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/03/purpose-of-public-schooling.html
Monday, March 17, 2008
The Purpose of Public Schooling
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school
children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and
the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."
Justice H. Walter Croskey, in the opinion holding that California
parents do not have the right to home school their children.
The term "fascist" has been overused, and in any case I know nothing
about Croskey's views on economics. But I find it extraordinary that
he would be willing to explicitly argue that public schools exist
largely to indoctrinate children in views the government approves of,
with or without the consent of their parents.
I came across the quote in a webbed essay on the decision. It reminded
me of an old academic article by John Lott in which he conjectured
that the reason schooling was so widely provided by governments was as
a way of reducing the cost of controlling their populations, and
offered some statistical evidence in support. One version of the paper
is available online. (A: I put the link following:)
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=162791
Public Schooling, Indoctrination, and Totalitarianism
John R. Lott Jr.
University of Maryland Foundation, University of Maryland
Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 107, Number 6, Part 2, pp.
S127-S157, December 1999,
Abstract:
Governments use public education and public ownership of schools and
the media to control the information that their citizens receive. More
totalitarian governments as well as those with larger wealth transfers
make greater investments in publicly controlled information. This
finding is borne out from cross sectional time-series evidence across
countries, and is confirmed when specifically examining the recent
fall of communism. My results reject the standard public good's view
linking education and democracy, and I find evidence that public
educational expenditures vary in similar ways to government ownership
of television stations.
JEL Classifications: I28
Accepted Paper Series
(A: Here's the weird part - all of the linx to the court ruling are
down - in every article I've found - so I have to look it up another way)
Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL
"Leslie Heimov, executive director of the Children's Law Center of Los
Angeles, which represented the Longs' two children in the case, said
the ruling did not change the law.
"They just affirmed that the current California law, which has been
unchanged since the last time it was ruled on in the 1950s, is that
children have to be educated in a public school, an accredited private
school, or with an accredited tutor," she said. "If they want to send
them to a private Christian school, they can, but they have to
actually go to the school and be taught by teachers."
Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of
the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they
would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing
safety."
(A: Seems this lawyer thinks that parents don't feel the 'duty' to
ensure their children's 'ongoing safety,' or else, that someone else
can do a better job.)
(A: While I may not have an 'official' certification to my opionion -
I think that a teacher of 30 years experience may have an opinion
worth noting, here's a part of his essay:)
AGAINST SCHOOL How public education cripples our kids, and why By John
Taylor Gatto
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
"Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modem
schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl
the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional
goals listed earlier:
1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish
fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes
critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea
that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you
can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make
kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.
2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the
conformity function," because its intention is to make children as
alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of
great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor
force.
3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to
determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging
evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in
"your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.
4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been
"diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far
as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step
further. So much for making kids their personal best.
5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all
but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he
called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along
by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are
meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and
other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them
as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive
sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first
grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.
6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these
rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small
fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this
continuing project, how to watch over and control a population
deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might
proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient
labor."
But there is some hope:
For anyone who may be facing legal challenges - but bear in mind that
these are circa 2003:
Decisions of the United States Supreme Court Upholding Parental Rights
as "Fundamental"
by Christopher J. Klicka, Esq.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000075.asp
The definition of socialization:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·i·za·tion Audio Help /ˌsoʊʃələˈzeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key
- Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-luh-zey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key
- Show IPA Pronunciation
noun
1. a continuing process whereby an individual acquires a personal
identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills
appropriate to his or her social position.
2. the act or process of making socialistic: the socialization of
industry.
[Origin: 188590; socialize + -ation]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ize Audio Help (sō'shə-līz') Pronunciation Key
v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es
v. tr.
1. To place under government or group ownership or control.
2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.
v. intr.
To take part in social activities.
so'cial·i·za'tion (-shə-lĭ-zā'shən) n., so'cial·iz'er n.
(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
socialization
noun
1. the action of establishing on a socialist basis; "the
socialization of medical services"
2. the act of meeting for social purposes; "there was too much
socialization with the enlisted men"
3. the adoption of the behavior patterns of the surrounding culture;
"the socialization of children to the norms of their culture"
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Thanx for reading,
Aimee
prepared, or willing, to defend it & I'm happy to see strong opinions
- it makes for much more in-depth discussions & I'm totally happy to
reveal how I came to my conclusions. I respect everyone on this list
& I think I'm safe to say that most of us are unconventional, even
visionary thinkers - even if some have 'had' to un-unschool their
children based on pressure from people or circumstances, the fact that
they're on this list means that many more people are, at least,
exposed to the concept. Of course, some may be here to make judgments
& use this list's attitudes & revelations as a way to formulate
arguments against unschooling. I'm not so naive as to believe this is
impossible.
My opinions are not based on some heinous happenings, bad memories
(although I was teased for wearing glasses, being a bookworm and my
religious beliefs) or vendetta - in fact I was taught in 3rd grade by
grandmother! - I used to walk to school with her - some of my best
memories ever! - However, she was old-school strict & retired early,
regretfully, due to parental interference - although she'd have past
students come visit her at least once a week, telling the class that
she was their favorite teacher ever! My uncle is/was a principal (not
sure if he's retired) & there were many educators in my family -
All-in-all, I had a rather good, successful, school experience - did
well, had a good rep, graduated with honors & was offered a 4-yr
scholarship to LSU based on my ACT score. So, I really have no axe to
grind. I didn't know anyone who was home-schooled whilst growing up,
but I did know quite a few people who left as soon as they reached the
'legal' age to do so & who had the truant officer tracking them down
before they reached the appropriate age.
BTW - I didn't come up with that appellation, however, I did 13 years
in it - so based on personal experience I thought it a clever
catch-all phrase - remember - almost EVERYBODY from politicians to
criminals (is there a difference?...) came from a public school system
- except for those small percentage who got private
schooling/tutoring, obviously. Whatever was "good" about the system
is mostly gone & as was pointed out several times by others - it's
more for social interaction or the so-called 'socialization' which
DOES NOT mean acquiring more social graces (so parents think) although
it definitely teaches A LOT about human nature & competition - it
means becoming more acclimated to a certain/particular controlled
environment ('official' definition(s) at the end of the email) - And
did anyone know that in some states, parents can actually GO TO JAIL
if their kids miss too much school - I'm serious! (Again, I know of
someone who really experienced this scenario.)
I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are taking
issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
intolerant one - below is the govt's idea (pretty recent, I might add,
and chilling...) please note that it does not mention the 3 R's,
critical thinking, career skills, etc as the primary purpose, which
makes them, at the highest, secondary, I'm looking for the whole
decision, to see if these aspects are mentioned at all:
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/03/purpose-of-public-schooling.html
Monday, March 17, 2008
The Purpose of Public Schooling
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school
children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and
the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."
Justice H. Walter Croskey, in the opinion holding that California
parents do not have the right to home school their children.
The term "fascist" has been overused, and in any case I know nothing
about Croskey's views on economics. But I find it extraordinary that
he would be willing to explicitly argue that public schools exist
largely to indoctrinate children in views the government approves of,
with or without the consent of their parents.
I came across the quote in a webbed essay on the decision. It reminded
me of an old academic article by John Lott in which he conjectured
that the reason schooling was so widely provided by governments was as
a way of reducing the cost of controlling their populations, and
offered some statistical evidence in support. One version of the paper
is available online. (A: I put the link following:)
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=162791
Public Schooling, Indoctrination, and Totalitarianism
John R. Lott Jr.
University of Maryland Foundation, University of Maryland
Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 107, Number 6, Part 2, pp.
S127-S157, December 1999,
Abstract:
Governments use public education and public ownership of schools and
the media to control the information that their citizens receive. More
totalitarian governments as well as those with larger wealth transfers
make greater investments in publicly controlled information. This
finding is borne out from cross sectional time-series evidence across
countries, and is confirmed when specifically examining the recent
fall of communism. My results reject the standard public good's view
linking education and democracy, and I find evidence that public
educational expenditures vary in similar ways to government ownership
of television stations.
JEL Classifications: I28
Accepted Paper Series
(A: Here's the weird part - all of the linx to the court ruling are
down - in every article I've found - so I have to look it up another way)
Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL
"Leslie Heimov, executive director of the Children's Law Center of Los
Angeles, which represented the Longs' two children in the case, said
the ruling did not change the law.
"They just affirmed that the current California law, which has been
unchanged since the last time it was ruled on in the 1950s, is that
children have to be educated in a public school, an accredited private
school, or with an accredited tutor," she said. "If they want to send
them to a private Christian school, they can, but they have to
actually go to the school and be taught by teachers."
Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of
the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they
would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing
safety."
(A: Seems this lawyer thinks that parents don't feel the 'duty' to
ensure their children's 'ongoing safety,' or else, that someone else
can do a better job.)
(A: While I may not have an 'official' certification to my opionion -
I think that a teacher of 30 years experience may have an opinion
worth noting, here's a part of his essay:)
AGAINST SCHOOL How public education cripples our kids, and why By John
Taylor Gatto
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
"Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modem
schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl
the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional
goals listed earlier:
1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish
fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes
critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea
that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you
can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make
kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.
2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the
conformity function," because its intention is to make children as
alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of
great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor
force.
3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to
determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging
evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in
"your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.
4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been
"diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far
as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step
further. So much for making kids their personal best.
5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all
but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he
called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along
by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are
meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and
other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them
as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive
sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first
grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.
6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these
rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small
fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this
continuing project, how to watch over and control a population
deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might
proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient
labor."
But there is some hope:
For anyone who may be facing legal challenges - but bear in mind that
these are circa 2003:
Decisions of the United States Supreme Court Upholding Parental Rights
as "Fundamental"
by Christopher J. Klicka, Esq.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000075.asp
The definition of socialization:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·i·za·tion Audio Help /ˌsoʊʃələˈzeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key
- Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-luh-zey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key
- Show IPA Pronunciation
noun
1. a continuing process whereby an individual acquires a personal
identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills
appropriate to his or her social position.
2. the act or process of making socialistic: the socialization of
industry.
[Origin: 188590; socialize + -ation]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ize Audio Help (sō'shə-līz') Pronunciation Key
v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es
v. tr.
1. To place under government or group ownership or control.
2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.
v. intr.
To take part in social activities.
so'cial·i·za'tion (-shə-lĭ-zā'shən) n., so'cial·iz'er n.
(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
socialization
noun
1. the action of establishing on a socialist basis; "the
socialization of medical services"
2. the act of meeting for social purposes; "there was too much
socialization with the enlisted men"
3. the adoption of the behavior patterns of the surrounding culture;
"the socialization of children to the norms of their culture"
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Thanx for reading,
Aimee
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 9, 2008, at 2:32 AM, firstgoddessfirst wrote:
If someone's making decisions for their children based on their own
negative opinions about something -- eg, preventing kids from going
to school because the parent thinks it's a bad place -- that's not
going to move that person closer to unschooling.
There's loads of things to fear in this world. There are high trees
with slippery branches. There are cars on the road not able to stop
for a child. There are commercials on TV working hard at manipulating
kids into buying. There's sugar everywhere that will make kids mean
and bounce off the walls. There's schools ready to indoctrinate our
kids.
If we stand between our kids and what we fear, we draw more attention
to it and often make it more attractive in its forbiddenness. While
we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to heart
and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
Keeping kids from school because you fear its effects is no clearer
thinking than sending kids to school because you fear inadequacy in
teaching them.
A better mindset for unschooling is to *invite* kids home because you
feel it's a better place. *Make* it a better place. But if kids get
curious about school, the way to make them want school more is to say
"No, I won't let you go."
Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
without a choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are takingWhy would unschoolers support public schooling? You missed the point.
> issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling
If someone's making decisions for their children based on their own
negative opinions about something -- eg, preventing kids from going
to school because the parent thinks it's a bad place -- that's not
going to move that person closer to unschooling.
There's loads of things to fear in this world. There are high trees
with slippery branches. There are cars on the road not able to stop
for a child. There are commercials on TV working hard at manipulating
kids into buying. There's sugar everywhere that will make kids mean
and bounce off the walls. There's schools ready to indoctrinate our
kids.
If we stand between our kids and what we fear, we draw more attention
to it and often make it more attractive in its forbiddenness. While
we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to heart
and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
Keeping kids from school because you fear its effects is no clearer
thinking than sending kids to school because you fear inadequacy in
teaching them.
A better mindset for unschooling is to *invite* kids home because you
feel it's a better place. *Make* it a better place. But if kids get
curious about school, the way to make them want school more is to say
"No, I won't let you go."
Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
without a choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I respect everyone on this list
& I think I'm safe to say that most of us are unconventional, even
visionary thinkers - even if some have 'had' to un-unschool their
children-=-
Whoa...
Please. Let's not be un-unning anything.
-=-I'm not so naive as to believe this is impossible.-=-
This is so doubly negative I'm unhappy to be reading what you've
written, and you're not even to the part where you're going to make
your point yet.
There are undoubtedly people here who hope unschooling isn't
workable. The best argument for them is to see a very negative mom
going on in a pessimistic and cynical fashion.
For the sake of your family, please try to move toward a softer,
lighter place.
For the sake of the list, continue to rant if you want. It will help
those who used to live furiously remember why it's better not to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
& I think I'm safe to say that most of us are unconventional, even
visionary thinkers - even if some have 'had' to un-unschool their
children-=-
Whoa...
Please. Let's not be un-unning anything.
-=-I'm not so naive as to believe this is impossible.-=-
This is so doubly negative I'm unhappy to be reading what you've
written, and you're not even to the part where you're going to make
your point yet.
There are undoubtedly people here who hope unschooling isn't
workable. The best argument for them is to see a very negative mom
going on in a pessimistic and cynical fashion.
For the sake of your family, please try to move toward a softer,
lighter place.
For the sake of the list, continue to rant if you want. It will help
those who used to live furiously remember why it's better not to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And did anyone know that in some states, parents can actually GO
TO JAIL
if their kids miss too much school - I'm serious! -=-
I thought everyone knew that. Chill, if you can. This intensity
isn't good for you.
And speaking in terms of "some states" is insufficient for a list
with regular participants in New Zealand, Australia, India, Italy,
France, the U.K. and Canada.
-=-I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are taking
issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
intolerant one - below is the govt's idea-=-
The government isn't on this list. This list doesn't exist to give
you a forum to squawk about the government.
David Friedman (I know him personally, through the SCA where he's
Duke Cariadoc and I'm Countess AElflaed) isn't unschooling the way
people on this list are. That's fine for him, and that's fine for
us. My point is that if that's the kind of discussion you like, this
list isn't the best place for it.
This list can help you come to a more peaceful, gentle place in your
unschooling, if you want that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TO JAIL
if their kids miss too much school - I'm serious! -=-
I thought everyone knew that. Chill, if you can. This intensity
isn't good for you.
And speaking in terms of "some states" is insufficient for a list
with regular participants in New Zealand, Australia, India, Italy,
France, the U.K. and Canada.
-=-I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are taking
issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
intolerant one - below is the govt's idea-=-
The government isn't on this list. This list doesn't exist to give
you a forum to squawk about the government.
David Friedman (I know him personally, through the SCA where he's
Duke Cariadoc and I'm Countess AElflaed) isn't unschooling the way
people on this list are. That's fine for him, and that's fine for
us. My point is that if that's the kind of discussion you like, this
list isn't the best place for it.
This list can help you come to a more peaceful, gentle place in your
unschooling, if you want that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
firstgoddessfirst
No, I did not miss the point - I understand very much that the more
forbidden fruit is perceived as sweeter - I did 'grow up' with Adam &
Eve, as such ;)
That being said - My children have never made an issue about going to
school, even my 14yo, so you can call this more of a mental exercise
on my part. In fact, my 8yo went to school with her 7yo cousin & saw
what it was like first hand & my 14yo went to school with her 12yo
cousin, ditto. Because of our lifestyle, my children are free to
spend several weeks at a time with my family 500 miles away, they vie
for the privilege to go/stay, however they end up there, brought or
picked up. My oldest son was stuck there for 6 weeks+ due to Katrina,
but I didn't overly worry about him because I trust my & DH's family
(& I could chirp my family via Nextel & communicate).
As to my oldest, she's mostly silent - she wakes up early for church
every Sunday to see her friends & has a very active myspace presence -
most of her family & friends are on there - so she keeps more in touch
with them than ever possible in the past
I don't attribute all of her seeming & occasional resentment &
brooding to my so-called 'forbidding' public school - that's her
personality - opposite of mine in many respects - I'm talkative (no
kidding, huh) she's more silent - I'm "happy-go-lucky" as my DH told
me, she's more reserved & solemn & somber & very discreet (totally not
frivolous) - & so forth - she's been this way since toddlerhood -
she's always had a lot of personal freedom since she could make
choices - picked out her own clothes (my sisters used to frown on her
"hoochie mama" outfits but now she's totally conservative), went to
bed when she fell asleep, time to herself, watched videos/TV, played
mostly unlimited on the computer & video games, chooses her own music
& loads it on her ipod, is a whiz at pretty much all things computer
(from hooking it up to troubleshooting) calls whomever she wants to,
etc - she has had a jealous nature & has been very mean to her younger
sibs in the past, especially her brother 3.5 years younger, & her
first, first cousin, 2 years younger, whom she's made cry on several
occasions (of course, they love each other very much & her behavior
has improved) but let me put it this way, she has been used as a
reason to NOT allow a child 'too' much freedom in my family, sad to
say - perhaps, I haven't been able to relate to her, perhaps, I
haven't understood her - I'm sorry for that but it isn't for lack of
trying...<sigh> & I've learned from my mistakes - we do have
discussions at times & I'm relieved that she is very sensible & has
pretty good critical thinking skills.
Yes, as toddlers & a little older, they expressed interest mostly when
we were near a school yard with lots of children playing outside &
lots of cool outside toys - I would tell them that the children didn't
play outside all the time - they had to go inside & that a lot of
parents had to work so put their children in pre-k or school because
they didn't know what else to do or didn't have any nearby family to
take care of their children & that the fun & games pretty much stopped
once they reached a certain age (kindergarten is not really a fair
indication of the rest of school) - I told them that you had to get up
really early (haha that's a big deterrent here) you could only go to
the bathroom at certain times (recess, or asking permission, rarely
granted) you have to eat when you were scheduled to eat, lack of
freedom of movement, etc. (just matters of fact) oh yeah, and that
most kids in school REALLY HATED being there (even if it was because
they missed their favorite soap operas)- longed for eternal recess &
summer vacation.
I told them the goods things that I could remember - like I could go
to the library at school, I enjoyed learning, I was able to be in the
talented & gifted program, great fun, although I mostly saw school as
an interruption of my reading - lol, I even enjoyed P.E., walked in
the Prom Court (which was pretty open of my parents - against the
prevailing thought of most in our congregation) & represented my
school on TV on a varsity quiz show & at those school competitions
(again pretty open of my parents, but, boy, did I feel ignorant
compared to a lot of these kids) Most of the social activities didn't
happen until about 15 or so (whatever age 10th grade). So, I didn't
paint a terribly, totally bad picture of school - but it 'ain't' the
same anymore - like the schools I went to are now requiring uniforms!
unheard of! & the even more restrictions & monitoring are unreal...
Then we have family & friends who insist on putting their kids in
school no matter what their child wants, even when the mom is a SAHM.
My children saw that they couldn't visit us & their whole lives
revolved around the school's schedule for the better part of the year
(as you may have picked up, I'm from Louisiana, so it has been very
prominent in our lives as a reason why their aunts, mostly,(adults w/o
fulltime jobs) & cousins can't visit since it's a 500 mile trip) well,
the offshoot of these discussions is that they would call schools "kid
jails" & that was that - pretty much all I told them were my experiences.
However, I do think you missed my point, or perhaps I left it too
vague - the subject line states "Why I call it "the public fool
system" NOT "Why I don't put my kids in school" or "My opinion as to
the motive for public schooling" - I call it the public fool system
because it's stated intent was to 'dumb down' the nation's children,
to make fools of the public as those who pose no threat or challenge
to the 'establishment.' But, please, don't believe me, look it up
yourself, blame the creators, not the victims or the whistle-blowers,
I didn't write the Communist Manifesto. I haven't tried to destroy
individual sovereignty. I haven't tried to divide the family or
trample parental rights. I don't profit off of ignorance &/or the lack
of critical thinking skills.
I'm just calling it, more like pointing out, what it is/has been
revealed to be - not out of fear - sort of like a pinkish animal with
a snout who grunts & squeals with a curly tail & squinty eyes, is a
pig (usually) it's not a judgment - it's a pig - even though calling
someone a pig is (usually) an insult or meant as such - calling an
actual pig a pig is neutral, not a 'negative opinion.'
<snip>
While we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to heart
and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
<snip>
True, true, but our parental obligation IS to protect our children -
until they're old enough to make, & take the consequences of, their
decisions, preferably without harming anyone or their property ;)
You can't 'defend' a child against everything but our children do have
to believe that we will fight the battles they are unable to fight
until such time as they can (if ever) - let's face it - babies don't
make a choice whether to be breastfed or formula fed - that's usually
a convenience or comfort choice (yes, I'm aware that not all can
breastfeed or be breastfed, as such) but the benefits of breastfeeding
far, far, far outweigh formula & babies who nurse benefit immensely
from this 'non-choice.'
<snip>
Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
without a choice.
<snip>
I totally disagree, staying home is almost always a better
"non-choice" (yes, I've learned that I have to qualify everything I
say here - hence why my emails are so long) by leaps & bounds - kids
aren't traumatized by "first-day-at-home" illnesses and panic attacks
& a home/family is FAR more likely to put the child's individual
interest(s) & protection first - I can't believe you'd say that,
really & what about the parent's choice, is that a non-issue?
I don't have to 'invite' my children, as such, as self-paced,
home-learning is all they've ever known - they are totally fine with
it :) We all want to know what's on the other side of the fence, we
all want to know how other people live, it's just natural curiosity,
until we 'walk a mile in their moccasins, then we decide our own life
was quite fine - as I tell people - I've never stopped learning - I
learn something everyday - even from my own children - imagine that -
to me you have an obligation to educate yourself - and as I've always
said - ignorance isn't bliss - it's what you don't know that can kill you.
Aimee
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
forbidden fruit is perceived as sweeter - I did 'grow up' with Adam &
Eve, as such ;)
That being said - My children have never made an issue about going to
school, even my 14yo, so you can call this more of a mental exercise
on my part. In fact, my 8yo went to school with her 7yo cousin & saw
what it was like first hand & my 14yo went to school with her 12yo
cousin, ditto. Because of our lifestyle, my children are free to
spend several weeks at a time with my family 500 miles away, they vie
for the privilege to go/stay, however they end up there, brought or
picked up. My oldest son was stuck there for 6 weeks+ due to Katrina,
but I didn't overly worry about him because I trust my & DH's family
(& I could chirp my family via Nextel & communicate).
As to my oldest, she's mostly silent - she wakes up early for church
every Sunday to see her friends & has a very active myspace presence -
most of her family & friends are on there - so she keeps more in touch
with them than ever possible in the past
I don't attribute all of her seeming & occasional resentment &
brooding to my so-called 'forbidding' public school - that's her
personality - opposite of mine in many respects - I'm talkative (no
kidding, huh) she's more silent - I'm "happy-go-lucky" as my DH told
me, she's more reserved & solemn & somber & very discreet (totally not
frivolous) - & so forth - she's been this way since toddlerhood -
she's always had a lot of personal freedom since she could make
choices - picked out her own clothes (my sisters used to frown on her
"hoochie mama" outfits but now she's totally conservative), went to
bed when she fell asleep, time to herself, watched videos/TV, played
mostly unlimited on the computer & video games, chooses her own music
& loads it on her ipod, is a whiz at pretty much all things computer
(from hooking it up to troubleshooting) calls whomever she wants to,
etc - she has had a jealous nature & has been very mean to her younger
sibs in the past, especially her brother 3.5 years younger, & her
first, first cousin, 2 years younger, whom she's made cry on several
occasions (of course, they love each other very much & her behavior
has improved) but let me put it this way, she has been used as a
reason to NOT allow a child 'too' much freedom in my family, sad to
say - perhaps, I haven't been able to relate to her, perhaps, I
haven't understood her - I'm sorry for that but it isn't for lack of
trying...<sigh> & I've learned from my mistakes - we do have
discussions at times & I'm relieved that she is very sensible & has
pretty good critical thinking skills.
Yes, as toddlers & a little older, they expressed interest mostly when
we were near a school yard with lots of children playing outside &
lots of cool outside toys - I would tell them that the children didn't
play outside all the time - they had to go inside & that a lot of
parents had to work so put their children in pre-k or school because
they didn't know what else to do or didn't have any nearby family to
take care of their children & that the fun & games pretty much stopped
once they reached a certain age (kindergarten is not really a fair
indication of the rest of school) - I told them that you had to get up
really early (haha that's a big deterrent here) you could only go to
the bathroom at certain times (recess, or asking permission, rarely
granted) you have to eat when you were scheduled to eat, lack of
freedom of movement, etc. (just matters of fact) oh yeah, and that
most kids in school REALLY HATED being there (even if it was because
they missed their favorite soap operas)- longed for eternal recess &
summer vacation.
I told them the goods things that I could remember - like I could go
to the library at school, I enjoyed learning, I was able to be in the
talented & gifted program, great fun, although I mostly saw school as
an interruption of my reading - lol, I even enjoyed P.E., walked in
the Prom Court (which was pretty open of my parents - against the
prevailing thought of most in our congregation) & represented my
school on TV on a varsity quiz show & at those school competitions
(again pretty open of my parents, but, boy, did I feel ignorant
compared to a lot of these kids) Most of the social activities didn't
happen until about 15 or so (whatever age 10th grade). So, I didn't
paint a terribly, totally bad picture of school - but it 'ain't' the
same anymore - like the schools I went to are now requiring uniforms!
unheard of! & the even more restrictions & monitoring are unreal...
Then we have family & friends who insist on putting their kids in
school no matter what their child wants, even when the mom is a SAHM.
My children saw that they couldn't visit us & their whole lives
revolved around the school's schedule for the better part of the year
(as you may have picked up, I'm from Louisiana, so it has been very
prominent in our lives as a reason why their aunts, mostly,(adults w/o
fulltime jobs) & cousins can't visit since it's a 500 mile trip) well,
the offshoot of these discussions is that they would call schools "kid
jails" & that was that - pretty much all I told them were my experiences.
However, I do think you missed my point, or perhaps I left it too
vague - the subject line states "Why I call it "the public fool
system" NOT "Why I don't put my kids in school" or "My opinion as to
the motive for public schooling" - I call it the public fool system
because it's stated intent was to 'dumb down' the nation's children,
to make fools of the public as those who pose no threat or challenge
to the 'establishment.' But, please, don't believe me, look it up
yourself, blame the creators, not the victims or the whistle-blowers,
I didn't write the Communist Manifesto. I haven't tried to destroy
individual sovereignty. I haven't tried to divide the family or
trample parental rights. I don't profit off of ignorance &/or the lack
of critical thinking skills.
I'm just calling it, more like pointing out, what it is/has been
revealed to be - not out of fear - sort of like a pinkish animal with
a snout who grunts & squeals with a curly tail & squinty eyes, is a
pig (usually) it's not a judgment - it's a pig - even though calling
someone a pig is (usually) an insult or meant as such - calling an
actual pig a pig is neutral, not a 'negative opinion.'
<snip>
While we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to heart
and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
<snip>
True, true, but our parental obligation IS to protect our children -
until they're old enough to make, & take the consequences of, their
decisions, preferably without harming anyone or their property ;)
You can't 'defend' a child against everything but our children do have
to believe that we will fight the battles they are unable to fight
until such time as they can (if ever) - let's face it - babies don't
make a choice whether to be breastfed or formula fed - that's usually
a convenience or comfort choice (yes, I'm aware that not all can
breastfeed or be breastfed, as such) but the benefits of breastfeeding
far, far, far outweigh formula & babies who nurse benefit immensely
from this 'non-choice.'
<snip>
Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
without a choice.
<snip>
I totally disagree, staying home is almost always a better
"non-choice" (yes, I've learned that I have to qualify everything I
say here - hence why my emails are so long) by leaps & bounds - kids
aren't traumatized by "first-day-at-home" illnesses and panic attacks
& a home/family is FAR more likely to put the child's individual
interest(s) & protection first - I can't believe you'd say that,
really & what about the parent's choice, is that a non-issue?
I don't have to 'invite' my children, as such, as self-paced,
home-learning is all they've ever known - they are totally fine with
it :) We all want to know what's on the other side of the fence, we
all want to know how other people live, it's just natural curiosity,
until we 'walk a mile in their moccasins, then we decide our own life
was quite fine - as I tell people - I've never stopped learning - I
learn something everyday - even from my own children - imagine that -
to me you have an obligation to educate yourself - and as I've always
said - ignorance isn't bliss - it's what you don't know that can kill you.
Aimee
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>heart While
>
> On Sep 9, 2008, at 2:32 AM, firstgoddessfirst wrote:
>
> > I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are taking
> > issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling
>
> Why would unschoolers support public schooling? You missed the point.
>
> If someone's making decisions for their children based on their own
> negative opinions about something -- eg, preventing kids from going
> to school because the parent thinks it's a bad place -- that's not
> going to move that person closer to unschooling.
>
> There's loads of things to fear in this world. There are high trees
> with slippery branches. There are cars on the road not able to stop
> for a child. There are commercials on TV working hard at manipulating
> kids into buying. There's sugar everywhere that will make kids mean
> and bounce off the walls. There's schools ready to indoctrinate our
> kids.
>
> If we stand between our kids and what we fear, we draw more attention
> to it and often make it more attractive in its forbiddenness. While
> we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
> against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
> you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to
> we parents intend our stance to say "I'm willing to defend you
> against anything!" what it says to the child is "I don't trust that
> you're stronger than this." Some kids will take that message to heart
> and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
> a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
> and believe they're weak and need protected. Some kids will see it as
> a challenge and want to test themselves against it.
>
> Keeping kids from school because you fear its effects is no clearer
> thinking than sending kids to school because you fear inadequacy in
> teaching them.
>
> A better mindset for unschooling is to *invite* kids home because you
> feel it's a better place. *Make* it a better place. But if kids get
> curious about school, the way to make them want school more is to say
> "No, I won't let you go."
>
> Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
> without a choice.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't profit off of ignorance &/or the lack of critical thinking
skills.-=-
Because this list is about what will optimize unschooling, the
negativity is something that others on the list will point at as a
detriment to unschooling.
-=-perhaps, I haven't been able to relate to her, perhaps, I haven't
understood her - I'm sorry for that but it isn't for lack of
trying...<sigh> -=-
There are lots of unschooling families who've figured out ways to
deal better with relationships. It's very likely you could get help
on this list if you want help. It's unlikely you can get help if
you're sure you already know everything there is to know and that no
one else could possibly help you.
-=-However, I do think you missed my point, or perhaps I left it too
vague - the subject line states "Why I call it "the public fool
system" -=-
The question about why you call it that was somewhat rhetorical.
Calling it that, and information such as "the offshoot of these
discussions is that they would call schools 'kid jails' & that was
that," are indicators that your lives aren't as peaceful as they
could be, and any problems you're having might be made worse by the
negativity.
-=-You can't 'defend' a child against everything but our children do
have to believe that we will fight the battles they are unable to
fight until such time as they can (if ever) - let's face it - babies
don't make a choice whether to be breastfed or formula fed - that's
usually a convenience or comfort choice (yes, I'm aware that not all
can breastfeed or be breastfed, as such) but the benefits of
breastfeeding far, far, far outweigh formula & babies who nurse
benefit immensely from this 'non-choice.'-=-
If you see your life as a battleground, it makes the world darker and
more dangerous than it needs to be.
I chose to breasteed my children, but I did it lovingly, not out of
fear or hatred of formula. And they nursed whenever they wanted to.
So that was a choice every moment that they suckled and ever moment
that I made it easy for them to do so. Choices, choices, choices, by
the moment, all day and all night. I wasn't fighting a battle for
them. I was being at peace with them.
-=-<snip>Staying home without a choice is no better than going to
school without a choice.<snip>
-=-I totally disagree, staying home is almost always a better "non-
choice"-=-
If you want to control your children, call it control, not "non choice."
-=-(yes, I've learned that I have to qualify everything I say here -
hence why my emails are so long)-=-
This list is no different from anything else in the world. Clarity
is clearer than breathless rhetorical obfuscation. Instead of
writing more and more, maybe breathe and think and shorten and
simplify. Or write more and more in a journal or on a blog, and just
post the clearest and best things here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
skills.-=-
Because this list is about what will optimize unschooling, the
negativity is something that others on the list will point at as a
detriment to unschooling.
-=-perhaps, I haven't been able to relate to her, perhaps, I haven't
understood her - I'm sorry for that but it isn't for lack of
trying...<sigh> -=-
There are lots of unschooling families who've figured out ways to
deal better with relationships. It's very likely you could get help
on this list if you want help. It's unlikely you can get help if
you're sure you already know everything there is to know and that no
one else could possibly help you.
-=-However, I do think you missed my point, or perhaps I left it too
vague - the subject line states "Why I call it "the public fool
system" -=-
The question about why you call it that was somewhat rhetorical.
Calling it that, and information such as "the offshoot of these
discussions is that they would call schools 'kid jails' & that was
that," are indicators that your lives aren't as peaceful as they
could be, and any problems you're having might be made worse by the
negativity.
-=-You can't 'defend' a child against everything but our children do
have to believe that we will fight the battles they are unable to
fight until such time as they can (if ever) - let's face it - babies
don't make a choice whether to be breastfed or formula fed - that's
usually a convenience or comfort choice (yes, I'm aware that not all
can breastfeed or be breastfed, as such) but the benefits of
breastfeeding far, far, far outweigh formula & babies who nurse
benefit immensely from this 'non-choice.'-=-
If you see your life as a battleground, it makes the world darker and
more dangerous than it needs to be.
I chose to breasteed my children, but I did it lovingly, not out of
fear or hatred of formula. And they nursed whenever they wanted to.
So that was a choice every moment that they suckled and ever moment
that I made it easy for them to do so. Choices, choices, choices, by
the moment, all day and all night. I wasn't fighting a battle for
them. I was being at peace with them.
-=-<snip>Staying home without a choice is no better than going to
school without a choice.<snip>
-=-I totally disagree, staying home is almost always a better "non-
choice"-=-
If you want to control your children, call it control, not "non choice."
-=-(yes, I've learned that I have to qualify everything I say here -
hence why my emails are so long)-=-
This list is no different from anything else in the world. Clarity
is clearer than breathless rhetorical obfuscation. Instead of
writing more and more, maybe breathe and think and shorten and
simplify. Or write more and more in a journal or on a blog, and just
post the clearest and best things here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are takingWell, my take on it is this... I can pretty much agree with much of what
> issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
> intolerant one - below is the govt's idea (pretty recent, I might add,
> and chilling...) please note that it does not mention the 3 R's,
> critical thinking, career skills, etc as the primary purpose, which
> makes them, at the highest, secondary, I'm looking for the whole
> decision, to see if these aspects are mentioned at all:
you said about public school. I've done the reading and really "get"
it. I keep that knowledge of what I don't like about school and the
school system tucked away in a brain fold in the back of my head.
What I absolutely came to realize, is that it can't be front and center.
I have to keep that space for creating a happy home and life for my
family, mainly my kids. It's a bit like yin/yang for me, the existence
of what I run from, figuratively of course, and what I run towards,
which is significantly more wonderful than what I run away from!
My husband and my older daughter know why I dislike school, it's not
like I keep my feelings and ideas a secret. They are free to make their
own conclusions about it. It's not something that I talk about all the
time even, it comes up in conversation here and there since school is
pretty pervasive in our culture. I try very hard to be objective about
it, especially when talking with my children.
My own experience, is that school was ok, but, in general a waste of
time, that is how it felt for years and years for me. One of my
favorite friends in the neighborhood was homeschooled. She had time and
freedom to make and create, which is what I desperately wanted to be
able to do. That feeling of time wasted with knowing that it could be
different, was a piece of the whole of what made us choose to
homeschool. The other piece was what I really disliked about school,
the loss of individuality, the cookie cutter, number/money thing.
Again, the running towards and away. Always though, I try to run
towards something much much better than what I am getting away from.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 9, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Jenny C wrote:
the "schooling" that I don't want for my kids. Private or public or at-
home - I don't want any of them.
I tried to keep some balance - I wanted my kids to know why we didn't
do school, but didn't want them to be afraid of it either, in case
something happened and they had to go. I wanted them to know that they
could handle it if they had to or chose to, but that I really thought
unschooling was far more wonderful.
When people ask why we homeschooled, I could, but I don't, rant about
the evils perpetrated on children in the name of education, I talk
about what a fantastically amazingly sweet lifestyle unschooling
allows. I talk about how it caught my imagination and how I really
wanted it for my family.
-pam
>> I find it rather interesting & sorta humorous that some are takingIt isn't the "public" in public school that I have issues with - it is
>> issue with my apparent intolerance for public schooling - I'm not the
>> intolerant one
the "schooling" that I don't want for my kids. Private or public or at-
home - I don't want any of them.
I tried to keep some balance - I wanted my kids to know why we didn't
do school, but didn't want them to be afraid of it either, in case
something happened and they had to go. I wanted them to know that they
could handle it if they had to or chose to, but that I really thought
unschooling was far more wonderful.
When people ask why we homeschooled, I could, but I don't, rant about
the evils perpetrated on children in the name of education, I talk
about what a fantastically amazingly sweet lifestyle unschooling
allows. I talk about how it caught my imagination and how I really
wanted it for my family.
-pam
Jenny C
> When people ask why we homeschooled, I could, but I don't, rant aboutYes, me too! I really don't like to make people feel bad, by alienating
> the evils perpetrated on children in the name of education, I talk
> about what a fantastically amazingly sweet lifestyle unschooling
> allows. I talk about how it caught my imagination and how I really
> wanted it for my family.
>
them because they've chosen school! Occasionally we will meet people
that really don't like many o' things about school, but don't know
anything different. For those people, it's even better to set an
example, through words and actions, that shows how wonderful it "could"
be!
One reason that started me in that direction was my mother in law. She
works for the public school system and is highly invested in it. Yet,
she is extremely accepting of our choices. It would be futile to rant
to her about school, she doesn't see the ugliness that school can be.
It is sooo much better for her to see and hear about how awesome
unschooling or homeschooling is! So that is what we share, all the
wonderful things we are doing, it just sort of overflowed into other
conversations with people, so much so, that it became the primary way of
how we convey unschooling.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 9, 2008, at 11:55 AM, firstgoddessfirst wrote:
steps is for people to turn their backs on school. Your post was all
too much about looking at school in minute detail. So, no, I didn't
miss it. I ignored the parts that weren't relevant to helping parents
face their kids rather than face school.
This current post is way too defensive about your and your children's
interactions with school. The discussion should be about ideas
not ... all that thrashing about defending what you've done about
school.
Really, it's lots more useful for people trying to unschool to not
pay so much attention to school. I've got a school that borders two
sides of my yard. My daughter goes over there for x-country (and went
for 2 classes last year.) I don't give it anywhere near as much
thought as you've spilled into two humongously long posts!
what's behind us. Come up to the front of the bus and talk about
where we're going and better ways to not be tempted to look out the
back window :-)
Children also want the freedom to explore.
We can support them by helping them find safe and respectful ways to
do that.
But "our parental obligation IS to protect our children" is stated
too much like a rule. The most controlling parent could say the exact
same thing as they turn off the TV set and toss out the candy bar.
That statement is not very useful for helping parents better their
unschooling and relationship with their kids.
and hoping some of them make a point.
parent made the child.
So you're saying it's better for a parent to make a child stay home
than allowing a child to choose to try school?
From my point of view, it's only "better" in the eyes of someone who
fears school.
whenever they want, suffer first day illnesses and panic attacks?
Those are reactions to having no choice.
If a child from an unschooling home wanted not to go to school one
day, they'd stay home. No reason to resort to an illness!
But I can very easily imagine similar "illnesses" in kids who are
forced to stay home against their will.
camp, never visits a friend, never gets in a car with someone who
isn't me driving (but I let Sandra drive her and Kat survived despite
Sandra's fears ;-), never walks through the doors of the school.
It helps unschooling a whole lot more to discuss how we can support
our children's explorations, even into areas that make us nervous.
TV, non-organic food, sugar, school. Those are all things parents
might want to protect their kids from. (And there have been huge
posts full of expert excerpts from fearful parents trying to
enlighten us on our apparent ignorance of all of those.) But we don't
help parents unschool better by supporting their need to hold onto
their kids. We help by helping parents look objectively at their
fears, look for ways to deal with the real problems and breathe
through the fears.
child's. To help our kids grow we help them find ways to explore in
safe and respectful ways. Sometimes they'll want to explore things
that make us uncomfortable, that we'd rather they didn't. If a parent
can't see past their fears, it useful to post here to gain some
clarity. Others can often more readily see what are real problems and
what are imagined problems and help find ways to deal with the real
problems to support the child's exploration.
negative things about school doesn't mean I'm blind to what it is.
But I *also* trust that my daughter is intelligent and perceptive and
can see school a whole lot more clearly than the kids who are
required to be there.
I think a huge and common mistake people make in relating to others
is in assuming that just because someone isn't responding with
protection to a fear that they must be ignorant. It's *hard* stepping
back and looking at situations objectively. It's *hard* to set aside
nagging fears and *hard* to trust the contingencies set up for the
more likely real possibilities.
The summer Kat turned 15, she decided to take a car design camp at a
college in Detroit. Carl drove her out from Boston, she spent two
weeks there and flew back home on her own. She'd never been away for
more than 2 nights to a friend's house. *Don't* think that wasn't
hard for the two of us. But we did what we could to support her
*despite* our fears.
This summer she wanted to visit a girl in Chicago she met through
Deviantart and had been talking to on the phone for 6 months. *Don't*
think that wasn't hard and fearful for us just because we helped her
do that.
Now she wants to go to Poland after Christmas. (You new unschoolers
think about that next time your child wants to ride beyond the block
on their bike. It *doesn't* get easier! ;-) How many parents would
say flat out no? But just because we've said yes doesn't mean it's
not hard and all sorts of fears aren't popping up. But what do we
gain by saying no? A more peaceful life? If we want a peaceful life,
it's *way* better not to have kids! What does she gain? A missed
opportunity? A demonstration that it's better to choose easy over
adventure? Much better to help her expand her world in safe ways than
to pull back in fear.
Joyce
> However, I do think you missed my point, or perhaps I left it tooThe list is about helping people unschool. One of the best first
> vague - the subject line states "Why I call it "the public fool
> system"
steps is for people to turn their backs on school. Your post was all
too much about looking at school in minute detail. So, no, I didn't
miss it. I ignored the parts that weren't relevant to helping parents
face their kids rather than face school.
This current post is way too defensive about your and your children's
interactions with school. The discussion should be about ideas
not ... all that thrashing about defending what you've done about
school.
Really, it's lots more useful for people trying to unschool to not
pay so much attention to school. I've got a school that borders two
sides of my yard. My daughter goes over there for x-country (and went
for 2 classes last year.) I don't give it anywhere near as much
thought as you've spilled into two humongously long posts!
> I'm just calling it, more like pointing out, what it is/has beenPerhaps out of obsession? Really, way way too much scrutiny about
> revealed to be - not out of fear
>
what's behind us. Come up to the front of the bus and talk about
where we're going and better ways to not be tempted to look out the
back window :-)
> True, true, but our parental obligation IS to protect our children -Children trust we're keeping them from imminent harm.
> until they're old enough to make, & take the consequences of, their
> decisions, preferably without harming anyone or their property ;)
Children also want the freedom to explore.
We can support them by helping them find safe and respectful ways to
do that.
But "our parental obligation IS to protect our children" is stated
too much like a rule. The most controlling parent could say the exact
same thing as they turn off the TV set and toss out the candy bar.
That statement is not very useful for helping parents better their
unschooling and relationship with their kids.
> (yes, I've learned that I have to qualify everything INo, being clear in a few words is better than throwing every word out
> say here - hence why my emails are so long)
and hoping some of them make a point.
> <snip>What does non-choice mean? It's just hand waving to avoid saying the
> Staying home without a choice is no better than going to school
> without a choice.
> <snip>
>
> I totally disagree, staying home is almost always a better
> "non-choice" by leaps & bounds
>
>
parent made the child.
So you're saying it's better for a parent to make a child stay home
than allowing a child to choose to try school?
From my point of view, it's only "better" in the eyes of someone who
fears school.
> kidsWhy would a child who is *choosing* to go to school, who can quit
> aren't traumatized by "first-day-at-home" illnesses and panic attacks
>
>
whenever they want, suffer first day illnesses and panic attacks?
Those are reactions to having no choice.
If a child from an unschooling home wanted not to go to school one
day, they'd stay home. No reason to resort to an illness!
But I can very easily imagine similar "illnesses" in kids who are
forced to stay home against their will.
> & a home/family is FAR more likely to put the child's individualAnd I can protect my daughter much better if she never goes to a
> interest(s) & protection first - I can't believe you'd say that,
> really &
>
>
camp, never visits a friend, never gets in a car with someone who
isn't me driving (but I let Sandra drive her and Kat survived despite
Sandra's fears ;-), never walks through the doors of the school.
It helps unschooling a whole lot more to discuss how we can support
our children's explorations, even into areas that make us nervous.
TV, non-organic food, sugar, school. Those are all things parents
might want to protect their kids from. (And there have been huge
posts full of expert excerpts from fearful parents trying to
enlighten us on our apparent ignorance of all of those.) But we don't
help parents unschool better by supporting their need to hold onto
their kids. We help by helping parents look objectively at their
fears, look for ways to deal with the real problems and breathe
through the fears.
> what about the parent's choice, is that a non-issue?Parent's choice about what? It's not the parent's childhood. It's the
>
>
child's. To help our kids grow we help them find ways to explore in
safe and respectful ways. Sometimes they'll want to explore things
that make us uncomfortable, that we'd rather they didn't. If a parent
can't see past their fears, it useful to post here to gain some
clarity. Others can often more readily see what are real problems and
what are imagined problems and help find ways to deal with the real
problems to support the child's exploration.
> to me you have an obligation to educate yourself - and as I've alwaysTo educate myself about school? Just because I don't read all the
> said - ignorance isn't bliss - it's what you don't know that can
> kill you.
>
negative things about school doesn't mean I'm blind to what it is.
But I *also* trust that my daughter is intelligent and perceptive and
can see school a whole lot more clearly than the kids who are
required to be there.
I think a huge and common mistake people make in relating to others
is in assuming that just because someone isn't responding with
protection to a fear that they must be ignorant. It's *hard* stepping
back and looking at situations objectively. It's *hard* to set aside
nagging fears and *hard* to trust the contingencies set up for the
more likely real possibilities.
The summer Kat turned 15, she decided to take a car design camp at a
college in Detroit. Carl drove her out from Boston, she spent two
weeks there and flew back home on her own. She'd never been away for
more than 2 nights to a friend's house. *Don't* think that wasn't
hard for the two of us. But we did what we could to support her
*despite* our fears.
This summer she wanted to visit a girl in Chicago she met through
Deviantart and had been talking to on the phone for 6 months. *Don't*
think that wasn't hard and fearful for us just because we helped her
do that.
Now she wants to go to Poland after Christmas. (You new unschoolers
think about that next time your child wants to ride beyond the block
on their bike. It *doesn't* get easier! ;-) How many parents would
say flat out no? But just because we've said yes doesn't mean it's
not hard and all sorts of fears aren't popping up. But what do we
gain by saying no? A more peaceful life? If we want a peaceful life,
it's *way* better not to have kids! What does she gain? A missed
opportunity? A demonstration that it's better to choose easy over
adventure? Much better to help her expand her world in safe ways than
to pull back in fear.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-I try to run towards something much much better than what I am
getting away from.-=-
When someone describes school in a positive way and STILL makes
homeschooling way more alluring, that's going to easily be a better
homeschooling situation than one where school has been described as a
hellhole, and anything seems better than that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
getting away from.-=-
When someone describes school in a positive way and STILL makes
homeschooling way more alluring, that's going to easily be a better
homeschooling situation than one where school has been described as a
hellhole, and anything seems better than that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
> to me you have an obligation to educate yourself - and as I've alwaysAh. I do think there are a number of unschoolers who are blissfully
> said - ignorance isn't bliss - it's what you don't know that can
> kill you.
ignorant of school evils, for whom school was minimally invasive and
actually enjoyable.
You can unschool your children without thinking of school as evil or
referring to school at all.
To the degree that unschooling is a reaction against school, that's just
that much more bad that a parent would benefit from overcoming in order to
make unschooling fun, happy and happening.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And I can protect my daughter much better if she never goes to a
camp, never visits a friend, never gets in a car with someone who
isn't me driving (but I let Sandra drive her and Kat survived despite
Sandra's fears ;-), never walks through the doors of the school.-=-
I have a little twinge of fearful awareness when I'm transporting
someone's only child. Okay, big twinge.
But by those protection arguments, we shouldn't have trees in our
yard. Kids might climb them, or the trees might fall on kids. (One
of our trees is leaning right now.)
Maybe beds should have sidebars like in hospitals. They must be safe
and helpful, or hospitals wouldn't have them.
Marty is riding in a jeep without doors. Keith is riding a
motorcycle. Either I don't love them at all, or I'm willing to go
along with their dangerous choices knowing they're intelligent and
aware of the risks. I do love them. I could rant and rail and show
them photos of people who've been in accidents and make them really
unhappy, make them like me less, and not make them any safer at all,
but I've decided not to do that. People have died under the safest
of conditions. People have lived through some of the worst.
Every moment we choose where to be, what to do, what to talk about,
what to write or what to think, we're moving toward or away from our
goals. If the goal is clear, the choices are easier.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
camp, never visits a friend, never gets in a car with someone who
isn't me driving (but I let Sandra drive her and Kat survived despite
Sandra's fears ;-), never walks through the doors of the school.-=-
I have a little twinge of fearful awareness when I'm transporting
someone's only child. Okay, big twinge.
But by those protection arguments, we shouldn't have trees in our
yard. Kids might climb them, or the trees might fall on kids. (One
of our trees is leaning right now.)
Maybe beds should have sidebars like in hospitals. They must be safe
and helpful, or hospitals wouldn't have them.
Marty is riding in a jeep without doors. Keith is riding a
motorcycle. Either I don't love them at all, or I'm willing to go
along with their dangerous choices knowing they're intelligent and
aware of the risks. I do love them. I could rant and rail and show
them photos of people who've been in accidents and make them really
unhappy, make them like me less, and not make them any safer at all,
but I've decided not to do that. People have died under the safest
of conditions. People have lived through some of the worst.
Every moment we choose where to be, what to do, what to talk about,
what to write or what to think, we're moving toward or away from our
goals. If the goal is clear, the choices are easier.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-To the degree that unschooling is a reaction against school,
that's just
that much more bad that a parent would benefit from overcoming in
order to
make unschooling fun, happy and happening.-=-
That's a really good point.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
If the parent is thinking "school school school" all the time, that's
too much school no matter whether the thoughts are positive, negative
or neutral.
And if the thoughts are negative, that's too much negativity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that's just
that much more bad that a parent would benefit from overcoming in
order to
make unschooling fun, happy and happening.-=-
That's a really good point.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
If the parent is thinking "school school school" all the time, that's
too much school no matter whether the thoughts are positive, negative
or neutral.
And if the thoughts are negative, that's too much negativity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
graberamy
> >Exactly!
> Why would a child who is *choosing* to go to school, who can quit
> whenever they want, suffer first day illnesses and panic attacks?
> Those are reactions to having no choice.>>>>
There have been some very interesting threads these last few days.
Especially interesting to me because Lydia, 11 has decided to give
school a try this year.
But I didn't want to try to keep her home by scaring her. Yes, I've
read Gatto and to be honest, all that conspiracy talk just is too much
negativity to have in my life.
Lydia went to school because most of her close friends go there and I
believe she really needed to find out for herself what it is like. I
kept her very busy here at home and we had a lot of fun. But she
really wanted more socially and she thinks that school is the answer.
We're 3 weeks in and it's going ok for her. She believes me (now)
about all the boring, rote memorization, worthless work they do in
school. She learned that for herself though. AND I appreciate that
she even questions... me!
She wasn't nervous at all about going to school, she was excited and
she has made a lot of friends already.
Last night we were laying in bed reading and talking and she asked me
if I wished she was still at home. I told her yea, but more
importantly was that I want her to be happy. And if school makes her
happy than I'm glad she's trying it. I then asked her if she wished
she would have started school earlier and she said, "no way, being
home is way better!"
School has provided a chance to talk about public school and
standardized test and memorizing and all the things about school that
are reasons I decided not to send mine. I'm sure quite a few people
have gone to public school and are still able to think critically and
look outside the box. Not everyone there gets brainwashed!
My daughter has even watched Disney (on a regular basis) and doesn't
own a Hannah Montana or Jonas brothers item at all!
Letting Lydia go has improved our relationship. She's learned to
trust me and more importantly she learned that I really trust her (I
let her do something that I wouldn't chose for her). I think she was
questioning what we were doing here at home, wondering if we were
normal and wondering if she fit in (academically and socially). She's
finding out (for herself) that we are a pretty cool family, even if we
do things differently and she's finding out that she fits in and is
able to make friends where ever she goes.
I hope she comes home and back to our unschooling lives. But I still
consider her an unschooler who has just decided to check out the way
the other half (or 90%) live. If she does come home, she'll never
have to question it/herself again!
So, no I guess I'm not an unschooler anymore, but Lydia sure has the
outlook of a kid who's been unschooled. It's amazing actually!!
She's light years ahead of where I was at 11!
amy g
iowa
lifeislearning
> I talkYES! Thank you for this - it really resonated because it describes
> about what a fantastically amazingly sweet lifestyle unschooling
> allows. I talk about how it caught my imagination and how I really
> wanted it for my family.
>
> -pam
>
exactly what I've been forgetting lately. Years ago, when my oldest
was a baby, unschooling "caught my imagination" too, and something in
me just knew instinctively the truth of what a sweet lifestyle it
would be, and how deeply I too wanted it for my family. I am very
much prone to emotional ups and downs, and sometimes I lose sight of
the beauty of what can happen when I actually allow it to catch my
imagination again instead of getting caught up in day to day issues.
The word "sparkly" has been catching my attention in a number of
posts, too. I love this metaphor but it is making me painfully aware
of how much sparkle we seem to have lost in recent years. Anybody
have suggestions on how they keep sweetness and sparkle in their
unschooling life? Is it just a matter of attitude, do you think, or
are there actual, concrete things you do to increase the odds of
experiencing life that way? Have other people experienced "valleys"
in their unschool journey? I have three kids ages 13, 10 and 5 who've
always been unschooled.
Barb in TN, former lurker, lured into the light : )
Sandra Dodd
-=-My daughter has even watched Disney (on a regular basis) and doesn't
own a Hannah Montana or Jonas brothers item at all! -=-
I'm not sure what this is good for except another data point: Holly
doesn't ever watch Disney (we don't have cable), but she owns Jonas
brothers stuff. And her brother, Kirby, has a Hannah Montana poster
in his kitchen, but that's another kind of data. <bwg>
http://tinyurl.com/6n3m92 (Holly doctored it...)
-=-I'm sure quite a few people
have gone to public school and are still able to think critically and
look outside the box. Not everyone there gets brainwashed! -=-
I wasn't, except for being dazzled by my own good grades. But one of
the worst cases of brainwashing I've seen, or of balking resistence
rather, was someone who objected to being asked to use critical
thinking, because that sounded like school to her, and she didn't
want to do anything that was like school. That's totally throwing
out the baby with the bathwater.
At school I used to read and go to the bathroom and write notes to my
friends. I still do those things. I used to sing; I still do. I
used to be analytical about writing and research; I still am.
-=-She's light years ahead of where I was at 11!-=-
Holly, me, 16.
Today I was having impatient thoughts about something she was doing,
and I thought she should realize blah blah blah, and then I
thought... when I was her age I would have reacted WAY more
dramatically, and the realizations I was thinking she should have
were things I learned in my 30's. She's nearly there, though--nearly
as aware as I was in my 30's. :-)
Holly has a 24 year old boyfriend who has said a couple of times in
one context or another that he was an adult. Technically he is, but
there are many ways in which Holly is more experienced and centered
and aware than he is. There are things he knows and has done too,
which is great, but he's still got the parental guilt-hooks in him
pretty deeply. He's been overly-controlled and shamed for a long
time (24 years).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
own a Hannah Montana or Jonas brothers item at all! -=-
I'm not sure what this is good for except another data point: Holly
doesn't ever watch Disney (we don't have cable), but she owns Jonas
brothers stuff. And her brother, Kirby, has a Hannah Montana poster
in his kitchen, but that's another kind of data. <bwg>
http://tinyurl.com/6n3m92 (Holly doctored it...)
-=-I'm sure quite a few people
have gone to public school and are still able to think critically and
look outside the box. Not everyone there gets brainwashed! -=-
I wasn't, except for being dazzled by my own good grades. But one of
the worst cases of brainwashing I've seen, or of balking resistence
rather, was someone who objected to being asked to use critical
thinking, because that sounded like school to her, and she didn't
want to do anything that was like school. That's totally throwing
out the baby with the bathwater.
At school I used to read and go to the bathroom and write notes to my
friends. I still do those things. I used to sing; I still do. I
used to be analytical about writing and research; I still am.
-=-She's light years ahead of where I was at 11!-=-
Holly, me, 16.
Today I was having impatient thoughts about something she was doing,
and I thought she should realize blah blah blah, and then I
thought... when I was her age I would have reacted WAY more
dramatically, and the realizations I was thinking she should have
were things I learned in my 30's. She's nearly there, though--nearly
as aware as I was in my 30's. :-)
Holly has a 24 year old boyfriend who has said a couple of times in
one context or another that he was an adult. Technically he is, but
there are many ways in which Holly is more experienced and centered
and aware than he is. There are things he knows and has done too,
which is great, but he's still got the parental guilt-hooks in him
pretty deeply. He's been overly-controlled and shamed for a long
time (24 years).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anybody
have suggestions on how they keep sweetness and sparkle in their
unschooling life? Is it just a matter of attitude, do you think, or
are there actual, concrete things you do to increase the odds of
experiencing life that way? -=-
It takes attitude AND action.
Lots of ideas, if you follow these trails:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/art
http://sandradodd.com/history
http://sandradodd.com/geography
http://sandradodd.com/games
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have suggestions on how they keep sweetness and sparkle in their
unschooling life? Is it just a matter of attitude, do you think, or
are there actual, concrete things you do to increase the odds of
experiencing life that way? -=-
It takes attitude AND action.
Lots of ideas, if you follow these trails:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/art
http://sandradodd.com/history
http://sandradodd.com/geography
http://sandradodd.com/games
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
>Today we made homemade marshmellows. I had always wanted to and it
> -=-Anybody
> have suggestions on how they keep sweetness and sparkle in their
> unschooling life? Is it just a matter of attitude, do you think, or
> are there actual, concrete things you do to increase the odds of
> experiencing life that way? -=-
>
>
>
was a rainy day, the kids thought hot choc sounded good but we had no
marshmellows. I actually happened to have everything you need to make
them so we did. I told a couple people that called what we had done,
their reponse, "why?" "couldnt you have gone to the store?".
What would have been the fun in that when you can make them from
scratch?
Anyway, that added alot of sweetness to our day.