Sandra Dodd

Please help me with ideas that might help this mom. I'm quoting from
e-mail, and I'm really hoping for ideas to soothe, repair, brainstorm...
The mom isn't on this list but I've invited her own. If she wants
to quietly read that's fine, and if she wants to say "Hi, that's me!"
that's okay too; either way.


-=- I�m so stressed I can�t think! I have a 14 year old daughter,
and I could really use some advice!! -=-

Her daughter is an only child and they live in the southeastern U.S.
We can call her "Rachel's mom."

***************************
I guess basically it's just seeing my daughter, Rachel, spend so much
time pining for her boyfriend and not much else. I love her
boyfriend a lot. He and Rachel have a great time together. I don't
think the relationship between the two of them is bad at all. But
he's from one of those military-like, southern Bible belt, slave
driving, "spare the rod, spoil the child" families. His mom barks
her orders and expects my daughter to obey them. She literally
screams at Rachel and her boyfriend. She puts them both down all the
time. She wields Rachel like a weapon against her boyfriend
threatening to force him to break up with her if they don't do what
she says, and they have to do it to perfection. Rachel has walked
their dogs, painted rooms in their house, cleaned up their yard, fed
their horses, cleaned their horses stalls, done their laundry, taken
care of their 2 year old twins, and probably a lot more that I don't
know about. She never pays Rachel for anything or offers anything in
return for all the work. She doesn't even feed Rachel when she's at
their house. If they get hungry at his house, Rachel's boyfriend has
to order a pizza or take Rachel out somewhere to eat. Rachel has
even called me from a restaurant asking me for my credit card number
when her boyfriend's mom failed to show up to take them out to eat as
a thank you for something extra they did. I see Rachel wilting
before my eyes. Our family is not like that at all. My own mom was
a hippie unschool mom, and Rachel is a second generation unschooler.
I'm so surprised that she will respond to such disrespect when she
has no obligation whatsoever to do anything this lady says. But she
knows that her boyfriend will not be allowed to see her if his mom
doesn't like her, so she does it all. Also, I'm finding myself doing
things according to his mom too, because I know how much Rachel and
her boyfriend mean to each other. I know that if his mom feels like
we're "heathens" she will never let him see Rachel. I've never been
made to feel so low before. It's not like me to even worry about
that. This lady is reaching into my home and wreaking havoc. I feel
like we're being terrorized.

I'm not sure how to handle it at all. We've always lived so
naturally and peacefully together. I don't have "requirements" that
she has to fulfill in order to be allowed to live in her own house.
For the first time in Rachel's life I'm tempted to force something.
I don't even know what I'd be forcing, and I don't know if she'd even
respond to such a thing coming from me, but Rachel hasn't done
anything at all in the past 3 months unless she's with her
boyfriend. She's one of those musician, dancer, artist, poet types.
I think she's so talented in so many things. It looks to me like
she's just wasting away. I don't want her to be involved with this
abusive family, but I do want her to be able to stay with her
boyfriend. I'm not going to tell her she has to break up with him
like his mom threatens all the time. I want her to connect with
other unschoolers, but I don't really know any. We have lots of
homeschooling families around us, but they all think unschooling is
evil.
He he. (seriously, they really do). They're not exactly my
biggest fans.

So there you have it.
I would be glad to share any of this with anybody. Any counsel would
be great! The more the merrier!
*****************************

My response to her was this:

++++++++++
I have ideas about the larger problem, but I'd rather take this to
the AlwaysLearning list, I think. I'm thinking of some specific
people who might be able to help you there.

I think this might possibly help you to think about her mental state
in the meantime.

http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com

Read the intro post and then poke around there. It's all stuff I've
written or quoted.
+++++++++++

The reason I recommended that until I got a chance to put this here
is that if a girl is in love, that would explain the appearance that
she does nothing when she's not with the boy and that she seems to be
wasting away.

But what practical advice might help?

Thanks,

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I don't have any fun- or success-filled advice ... just the irresponsible
idea to run like hell away from the woman. However I live in the
southeastern US and the culture gives almost airtight support to the
boyfriend's militaristic mom not the daughter's unschooly mom. Even if you
can run and hide, you still need a way to eat and survive.

Obey is a word that engulfs love and makes its power almost nil, or
destructive, depending on which side of it you're on. And since we're
talking about love which is, like Sandra points out, biochemical, all you
add is fear of disobedience, fear of reprisal, fear for each other's safety,
to get emprisonment of spirits all around. Iron wings is what a friend of
mine calls it.

It doesn't say, but I'm assuming the boyfriend is about 14 too.

There have been stories of quiet pacts to wait until reaching majority age
to have a life you want to live rather than depending on someone's favor or
even dependability. That's an age old idea. Depends on the situation. The
bad thing about that is it would stink. The good thing about it is it would
be a choice the sweethearts could make together, rather than having their
love used against them. Well and there's another good thing about that...
their love could not only become their own but also remain sweet and
uncorrupted by the boyfriend's mom.

~Katherine


On 8/20/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Please help me with ideas that might help this mom. I'm quoting from
> e-mail, and I'm really hoping for ideas to soothe, repair, brainstorm...
> The mom isn't on this list but I've invited her own. If she wants
> to quietly read that's fine, and if she wants to say "Hi, that's me!"
> that's okay too; either way.
>
>
> -=- I'm so stressed I can't think! I have a 14 year old daughter,
> and I could really use some advice!! -=-
>
> Her daughter is an only child and they live in the southeastern U.S.
> We can call her "Rachel's mom."
>
> ***************************
> I guess basically it's just seeing my daughter, Rachel, spend so much
> time pining for her boyfriend and not much else. I love her
> boyfriend a lot. He and Rachel have a great time together. I don't
> think the relationship between the two of them is bad at all. But
> he's from one of those military-like, southern Bible belt, slave
> driving, "spare the rod, spoil the child" families. His mom barks
> her orders and expects my daughter to obey them. She literally
> screams at Rachel and her boyfriend. She puts them both down all the
> time. She wields Rachel like a weapon against her boyfriend
> threatening to force him to break up with her if they don't do what
> she says, and they have to do it to perfection. Rachel has walked
> their dogs, painted rooms in their house, cleaned up their yard, fed
> their horses, cleaned their horses stalls, done their laundry, taken
> care of their 2 year old twins, and probably a lot more that I don't
> know about. She never pays Rachel for anything or offers anything in
> return for all the work. She doesn't even feed Rachel when she's at
> their house. If they get hungry at his house, Rachel's boyfriend has
> to order a pizza or take Rachel out somewhere to eat. Rachel has
> even called me from a restaurant asking me for my credit card number
> when her boyfriend's mom failed to show up to take them out to eat as
> a thank you for something extra they did. I see Rachel wilting
> before my eyes. Our family is not like that at all. My own mom was
> a hippie unschool mom, and Rachel is a second generation unschooler.
> I'm so surprised that she will respond to such disrespect when she
> has no obligation whatsoever to do anything this lady says. But she
> knows that her boyfriend will not be allowed to see her if his mom
> doesn't like her, so she does it all. Also, I'm finding myself doing
> things according to his mom too, because I know how much Rachel and
> her boyfriend mean to each other. I know that if his mom feels like
> we're "heathens" she will never let him see Rachel. I've never been
> made to feel so low before. It's not like me to even worry about
> that. This lady is reaching into my home and wreaking havoc. I feel
> like we're being terrorized.
>
> I'm not sure how to handle it at all. We've always lived so
> naturally and peacefully together. I don't have "requirements" that
> she has to fulfill in order to be allowed to live in her own house.
> For the first time in Rachel's life I'm tempted to force something.
> I don't even know what I'd be forcing, and I don't know if she'd even
> respond to such a thing coming from me, but Rachel hasn't done
> anything at all in the past 3 months unless she's with her
> boyfriend. She's one of those musician, dancer, artist, poet types.
> I think she's so talented in so many things. It looks to me like
> she's just wasting away. I don't want her to be involved with this
> abusive family, but I do want her to be able to stay with her
> boyfriend. I'm not going to tell her she has to break up with him
> like his mom threatens all the time. I want her to connect with
> other unschoolers, but I don't really know any. We have lots of
> homeschooling families around us, but they all think unschooling is
> evil.
> He he. (seriously, they really do). They're not exactly my
> biggest fans.
>
> So there you have it.
> I would be glad to share any of this with anybody. Any counsel would
> be great! The more the merrier!
> *****************************
>
> My response to her was this:
>
> ++++++++++
> I have ideas about the larger problem, but I'd rather take this to
> the AlwaysLearning list, I think. I'm thinking of some specific
> people who might be able to help you there.
>
> I think this might possibly help you to think about her mental state
> in the meantime.
>
> http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com
>
> Read the intro post and then poke around there. It's all stuff I've
> written or quoted.
> +++++++++++
>
> The reason I recommended that until I got a chance to put this here
> is that if a girl is in love, that would explain the appearance that
> she does nothing when she's not with the boy and that she seems to be
> wasting away.
>
> But what practical advice might help?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-There have been stories of quiet pacts to wait until reaching
majority age
to have a life you want to live rather than depending on someone's
favor or
even dependability. That's an age old idea. Depends on the situation.
The
bad thing about that is it would stink. -=-

(Anonymom, Rachel's Mom, if you choose not to out yourself, maybe
answer these questions on the side in e-mail.)

Do they have internet contact? Phone? Text? Can they have romance
without physical proximity part of the time?

How does she get to the boy's house? (Partly I'm curious, partly
wondering about logistics.)

Where did they meet? (Ditto; logistics, principles.)



My strongest thought was "detachment." If the daughter can handle
it, let that be her choice. Holly has hung out with some families
with a bunch of rules and nonsense and she chose to be around it
because the reward was worth it. Also, honestly, she was kinda
curious about such families, and she learned a LOT. If Rachel knows
the ins and outs of the boyfriend's family, that gives her power for
the future. If she stays with him, they can't claim the relationship
between mother and son, mother and whoever-all, was other than it
was. If she doesn't, she'll know what kind of mother she does not
want to be.

Sometimes I assume my children will be alarmed or upset by a
situation and they're not. It's my own history that causes alarms to
go off in me. They're calmer than I ever was at their ages. They're
more realistic. They have a strong sense of self. They're not very
vulnerable, at all. Perhaps Rachel has that advantage too, and maybe
she's actually kinda having fun in the situation to some extent.
Like a difficult game or puzzle. Depending how she is at
interpersonal business, she might be having a LOT of fun.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

I want to know why they are spending so much time at his house? Why
doesn't he do his work and take off - go to her house to spend their
free time? It seems odd for her to be choosing to be over there
working like that - there must be something I'm not understanding.
Does the mother not let the kid out of the house so that the girl has
to go work with him in order to spend time with him at all? How did
they meet and get to know each other?


-pam


On Aug 20, 2008, at 7:32 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Please help me with ideas that might help this mom. I'm quoting from
> e-mail, and I'm really hoping for ideas to soothe, repair,
> brainstorm...
> The mom isn't on this list but I've invited her own. If she wants
> to quietly read that's fine, and if she wants to say "Hi, that's me!"
> that's okay too; either way.

Clare Kirkpatrick

Maybe one of the biggest things Rachel needs is a listening ear until such a
time comes when she can have more control over the situation without the
fear of losing her boyfriend? The email doesn't mention much about how much
Rachel talks about her feelings around the situation, but maybe finding
someone (who isn't her mum - sometimes difficult talking to the most
approachable mums about your feelings about boyfriends I think!) who will
just sit and listen and not try to find solutions or make platitudes etc. -
maybe even someone trained in listening skills. Not necessarily a
counsellor, just someone with enough training to give Rachel the space to
let off steam and work out a solution for herself that would be helpful (if
there is a solution at all...).

Clare

Margaret

My oldest child is 5, so I guess I'm thinking of this more from
remembering being that age than parental experience, so with that
caveat...

I would talk to the daughter about strategy. It seems as though the
mother is asking a lot of her, more than she seems comfortable with...
is there anything I can do to help? The other mom does things totally
differently, but I think she would respect the things that she does.
Rules. Authority. The other mom would probably respect my parental
dictates, so are there any that would be helpful? Would it be helpful
if there were some rules we came up with (how late to stay out, how
much time she can spend there, etc.) that would help her deal with the
mom without negatively affecting things with her boyfriend? Can she
send me a text message when things are getting a little hairy to let
me know that a call from mom insisting that she come home now is
desired?

I guess I am imagining the situation as just trying to tolerate her
for now until the boyfriend is no longer under her control. This
solution isn't the most open and honest one, but it didn't sound as
though an open honest relationship with his mom was something that was
going to work terribly well.

Margaret


On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Please help me with ideas that might help this mom. I'm quoting from
> e-mail, and I'm really hoping for ideas to soothe, repair, brainstorm...
> The mom isn't on this list but I've invited her own. If she wants
> to quietly read that's fine, and if she wants to say "Hi, that's me!"
> that's okay too; either way.
>
>
> -=- I'm so stressed I can't think! I have a 14 year old daughter,
> and I could really use some advice!! -=-
>
> Her daughter is an only child and they live in the southeastern U.S.
> We can call her "Rachel's mom."
>
> ***************************
> I guess basically it's just seeing my daughter, Rachel, spend so much
> time pining for her boyfriend and not much else. I love her
> boyfriend a lot. He and Rachel have a great time together. I don't
> think the relationship between the two of them is bad at all. But
> he's from one of those military-like, southern Bible belt, slave
> driving, "spare the rod, spoil the child" families. His mom barks
> her orders and expects my daughter to obey them. She literally
> screams at Rachel and her boyfriend. She puts them both down all the
> time. She wields Rachel like a weapon against her boyfriend
> threatening to force him to break up with her if they don't do what
> she says, and they have to do it to perfection. Rachel has walked
> their dogs, painted rooms in their house, cleaned up their yard, fed
> their horses, cleaned their horses stalls, done their laundry, taken
> care of their 2 year old twins, and probably a lot more that I don't
> know about. She never pays Rachel for anything or offers anything in
> return for all the work. She doesn't even feed Rachel when she's at
> their house. If they get hungry at his house, Rachel's boyfriend has
> to order a pizza or take Rachel out somewhere to eat. Rachel has
> even called me from a restaurant asking me for my credit card number
> when her boyfriend's mom failed to show up to take them out to eat as
> a thank you for something extra they did. I see Rachel wilting
> before my eyes. Our family is not like that at all. My own mom was
> a hippie unschool mom, and Rachel is a second generation unschooler.
> I'm so surprised that she will respond to such disrespect when she
> has no obligation whatsoever to do anything this lady says. But she
> knows that her boyfriend will not be allowed to see her if his mom
> doesn't like her, so she does it all. Also, I'm finding myself doing
> things according to his mom too, because I know how much Rachel and
> her boyfriend mean to each other. I know that if his mom feels like
> we're "heathens" she will never let him see Rachel. I've never been
> made to feel so low before. It's not like me to even worry about
> that. This lady is reaching into my home and wreaking havoc. I feel
> like we're being terrorized.
>
> I'm not sure how to handle it at all. We've always lived so
> naturally and peacefully together. I don't have "requirements" that
> she has to fulfill in order to be allowed to live in her own house.
> For the first time in Rachel's life I'm tempted to force something.
> I don't even know what I'd be forcing, and I don't know if she'd even
> respond to such a thing coming from me, but Rachel hasn't done
> anything at all in the past 3 months unless she's with her
> boyfriend. She's one of those musician, dancer, artist, poet types.
> I think she's so talented in so many things. It looks to me like
> she's just wasting away. I don't want her to be involved with this
> abusive family, but I do want her to be able to stay with her
> boyfriend. I'm not going to tell her she has to break up with him
> like his mom threatens all the time. I want her to connect with
> other unschoolers, but I don't really know any. We have lots of
> homeschooling families around us, but they all think unschooling is
> evil.
> He he. (seriously, they really do). They're not exactly my
> biggest fans.
>
> So there you have it.
> I would be glad to share any of this with anybody. Any counsel would
> be great! The more the merrier!
> *****************************
>
> My response to her was this:
>
> ++++++++++
> I have ideas about the larger problem, but I'd rather take this to
> the AlwaysLearning list, I think. I'm thinking of some specific
> people who might be able to help you there.
>
> I think this might possibly help you to think about her mental state
> in the meantime.
>
> http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com
>
> Read the intro post and then poke around there. It's all stuff I've
> written or quoted.
> +++++++++++
>
> The reason I recommended that until I got a chance to put this here
> is that if a girl is in love, that would explain the appearance that
> she does nothing when she's not with the boy and that she seems to be
> wasting away.
>
> But what practical advice might help?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Joanna Wilkinson

Also, I'm finding myself doing
> things according to his mom too, because I know how much Rachel and
> her boyfriend mean to each other. I know that if his mom feels like
> we're "heathens" she will never let him see Rachel. I've never been
> made to feel so low before. It's not like me to even worry about
> that. This lady is reaching into my home and wreaking havoc. I
feel
> like we're being terrorized.
>

She can't reach into your home, unless you let her. If you are hiding
who you are, that's a choice you don't have to make. It's also not a
good example to set, esp. in this situation.
You don't have to go out of your way to let her see you are different,
but I don't think you should be hiding anything or feeling terrorized
either.

Joanna W.

Jenny C

> Also, I'm finding myself doing
> > things according to his mom too, because I know how much Rachel and
> > her boyfriend mean to each other. I know that if his mom feels like
> > we're "heathens" she will never let him see Rachel. I've never been
> > made to feel so low before. It's not like me to even worry about
> > that. This lady is reaching into my home and wreaking havoc. I
> feel
> > like we're being terrorized.
> >
>
> She can't reach into your home, unless you let her. If you are hiding
> who you are, that's a choice you don't have to make. It's also not a
> good example to set, esp. in this situation.
> You don't have to go out of your way to let her see you are different,
> but I don't think you should be hiding anything or feeling terrorized
> either.
>


I wanted to add too, that if the mother makes that decision, it's even
more important to stand firmly in what you believe, because what you
believe is respectful and your daughter will have a place to go for
comfort and understanding.

You can't make the other mother behave differently, but you can send a
clear message that says that you are not the one who is making these
destructive decisions. If the other mother decides to try to eliminate
the relationship, you can make it clear that it had nothing to do with
you. It could be a catalyst for change as well. Some kids will fold
under that kind of pressure and some will rebel. You won't be the one
ending the relationship, kids aren't stupid, they WILL know who supports
them and who doesn't.

When the father of Chamille's best friend decided that Chamille was
"bad" and started routinely grounding his daughter from her, both girls
knew that it wasn't Chamille or me that was doing it or causing it.
They both know it was and is him. He hasn't made a good impression on
either of his kids through his decisions. His children hate him.
Chamille doesn't like him either. While it's not really a popularity
contest, it does feel good to be the nice parent, the patient and kind
parent, the one that my daughter and her friend can talk to, not the one
they run from.

J Geller

Please help me with ideas that might help this mom.
-----------------
What a terrible and difficult situation. I am so sorry for all involved. I will try and brainstorm some ideas:

Can the mom offer to let the boyfriend move in with them?

Can Rachel's mom get involved and help out with the boyfriend's family (maybe watch the two year old twins) to support Rachel?

Can she talk to Rachel about her concerns and about how abusive she sees the mother as being and let Rachel problem solve?

Can she join our list and vent and then feel supported?

Jae







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chrisi Lewis

I'm Rachel's mom, Chrisi Lewis. Thank you so much for helping me!

I drive Rachel to her boyfriend, Trai's house and pick her up when
she calls. I try to take him to our house as much as I can too
though. They met at a homeschool co-op type thing that meets for
classes once a week. Rachel wanted to take an art class she saw they
were offering and he was taking a full load of academics.

They do have cell phones and texting. He calls her as much as he
can. She's not allowed to call him, because his mom thinks it's
innapropriate for a girl to call a boy. His mom keeps his cell phone
in her pocket, and he has to ask permission to make a call. She does
make him take it with him when he's working outside, so he will sneak
calls during those times. He has to erase the call records so she
won't know. Internet communication is easier, because he does this
online high school which requires him to be logged on for at least 4
hours a day. They set up a blog called "Have a Little Lamb" (Rachel
means lamb), and they communicate through that. They also made a
myspace page under the name "Traichel" that they use. But his mom
looks over his shoulder, so it can be a little tricky. And, like the
phone calls, he has to remember to delete the record of those
websites from the history so she won't find them.

Could you explain a little more of what you mean by detachment? That
sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I understood what you were
getting at.

As far as this being a puzzle, I hadn't thought of it that way. That
could be. But she's very upset a lot of the time. I think the
twilight zone feeling she gets from being at his house is getting to
her and making her forget who she is. She seems disoriented a lot,
and she doesn't leave my side. She is even sleeping in my room again
like she did when she was little. She's always been very strong, but
she seems to have become a shadow of herself. I also hadn't thought
about my own history contributing to how stressed I am about the
whole thing. I'm glad you mentioned that.

Chrisi

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-There have been stories of quiet pacts to wait until reaching
> majority age
> to have a life you want to live rather than depending on someone's
> favor or
> even dependability. That's an age old idea. Depends on the
situation.
> The
> bad thing about that is it would stink. -=-
>
> (Anonymom, Rachel's Mom, if you choose not to out yourself, maybe
> answer these questions on the side in e-mail.)
>
> Do they have internet contact? Phone? Text? Can they have
romance
> without physical proximity part of the time?
>
> How does she get to the boy's house? (Partly I'm curious, partly
> wondering about logistics.)
>
> Where did they meet? (Ditto; logistics, principles.)
>
>
>
> My strongest thought was "detachment." If the daughter can
handle
> it, let that be her choice. Holly has hung out with some
families
> with a bunch of rules and nonsense and she chose to be around it
> because the reward was worth it. Also, honestly, she was kinda
> curious about such families, and she learned a LOT. If Rachel
knows
> the ins and outs of the boyfriend's family, that gives her power
for
> the future. If she stays with him, they can't claim the
relationship
> between mother and son, mother and whoever-all, was other than it
> was. If she doesn't, she'll know what kind of mother she does not
> want to be.
>
> Sometimes I assume my children will be alarmed or upset by a
> situation and they're not. It's my own history that causes alarms
to
> go off in me. They're calmer than I ever was at their ages.
They're
> more realistic. They have a strong sense of self. They're not
very
> vulnerable, at all. Perhaps Rachel has that advantage too, and
maybe
> she's actually kinda having fun in the situation to some extent.
> Like a difficult game or puzzle. Depending how she is at
> interpersonal business, she might be having a LOT of fun.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-But she's very upset a lot of the time. I think the
twilight zone feeling she gets from being at his house is getting to
her and making her forget who she is.-=-

Who she is is changing and will keep changing. Don't hold her to
what she was. If she's changing, let her. If she tries on some
other behaviors and thoughts and doesn't like them, they won't have
changed her.



Maybe your emotions are magnifying hers.



-=-Could you explain a little more of what you mean by detachment?
That sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I understood what you were
getting at. -=-

Don't experience her emotions. Keep yourself whole and centered and
strong so when she comes home she has someone strong and who's not
also being swayed and buffetted by the situation with the other family.



Don't let the other mom's actions affect you YOU are. You can be
your own happy self and be a haven of peace for her and the
boyfriend, or you can fall into the emotional roller coaster and make
a tense situation worse.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

The fact that she is hanging close to you is great. I'm glad you can be
there for her. Home base is a great thing to have. :) So when she's
getting a little off-kilter from being at Trai's, she can get reoriented at
home with you.

I had written something yesterday and got sidetracked then lost what I'd
written. It was about how Karl at 5 is so much more centered than I was at
any age in my parent's home. He gets way more opportunity to make his own
choices in a day than I had in a year (not kidding). All this has a
tremendous stabilizing influence on him all the time.

I'm in my 40s still struggling with baggage and the same relationship
quandaries you're concerned about for your daughter. So is my sister (in
her mid 50s). Immediately when I read Rachel's story, I came up with one
idea.... which is all that my mind leaped to. I keep sticking with this
list and some others, and it's always amazing how many more ideas there are
than just one little thing. It's great that there's so much more choice
than I at first think there is.

~Katherine




On 8/21/08, Chrisi Lewis <chrisi.lewis@...> wrote:
>
> I'm Rachel's mom, Chrisi Lewis. Thank you so much for helping me!
>
> I drive Rachel to her boyfriend, Trai's house and pick her up when
> she calls. I try to take him to our house as much as I can too
> though. They met at a homeschool co-op type thing that meets for
> classes once a week. Rachel wanted to take an art class she saw they
> were offering and he was taking a full load of academics.
>
> They do have cell phones and texting. He calls her as much as he
> can. She's not allowed to call him, because his mom thinks it's
> innapropriate for a girl to call a boy. His mom keeps his cell phone
> in her pocket, and he has to ask permission to make a call. She does
> make him take it with him when he's working outside, so he will sneak
> calls during those times. He has to erase the call records so she
> won't know. Internet communication is easier, because he does this
> online high school which requires him to be logged on for at least 4
> hours a day. They set up a blog called "Have a Little Lamb" (Rachel
> means lamb), and they communicate through that. They also made a
> myspace page under the name "Traichel" that they use. But his mom
> looks over his shoulder, so it can be a little tricky. And, like the
> phone calls, he has to remember to delete the record of those
> websites from the history so she won't find them.
>
> Could you explain a little more of what you mean by detachment? That
> sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I understood what you were
> getting at.
>
> As far as this being a puzzle, I hadn't thought of it that way. That
> could be. But she's very upset a lot of the time. I think the
> twilight zone feeling she gets from being at his house is getting to
> her and making her forget who she is. She seems disoriented a lot,
> and she doesn't leave my side. She is even sleeping in my room again
> like she did when she was little. She's always been very strong, but
> she seems to have become a shadow of herself. I also hadn't thought
> about my own history contributing to how stressed I am about the
> whole thing. I'm glad you mentioned that.
>
> Chrisi
>
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >
> > -=-There have been stories of quiet pacts to wait until reaching
> > majority age
> > to have a life you want to live rather than depending on someone's
> > favor or
> > even dependability. That's an age old idea. Depends on the
> situation.
> > The
> > bad thing about that is it would stink. -=-
> >
> > (Anonymom, Rachel's Mom, if you choose not to out yourself, maybe
> > answer these questions on the side in e-mail.)
> >
> > Do they have internet contact? Phone? Text? Can they have
> romance
> > without physical proximity part of the time?
> >
> > How does she get to the boy's house? (Partly I'm curious, partly
> > wondering about logistics.)
> >
> > Where did they meet? (Ditto; logistics, principles.)
> >
> >
> >
> > My strongest thought was "detachment." If the daughter can
> handle
> > it, let that be her choice. Holly has hung out with some
> families
> > with a bunch of rules and nonsense and she chose to be around it
> > because the reward was worth it. Also, honestly, she was kinda
> > curious about such families, and she learned a LOT. If Rachel
> knows
> > the ins and outs of the boyfriend's family, that gives her power
> for
> > the future. If she stays with him, they can't claim the
> relationship
> > between mother and son, mother and whoever-all, was other than it
> > was. If she doesn't, she'll know what kind of mother she does not
> > want to be.
> >
> > Sometimes I assume my children will be alarmed or upset by a
> > situation and they're not. It's my own history that causes alarms
> to
> > go off in me. They're calmer than I ever was at their ages.
> They're
> > more realistic. They have a strong sense of self. They're not
> very
> > vulnerable, at all. Perhaps Rachel has that advantage too, and
> maybe
> > she's actually kinda having fun in the situation to some extent.
> > Like a difficult game or puzzle. Depending how she is at
> > interpersonal business, she might be having a LOT of fun.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J Geller

I had thought they were 17 but someone else said 14. How old are they? If he is almost 18, offering to rescue him might help. It sounds like such a dreadful, toxic situation. Does the mother drink or physically abuse the kids? Anything that could get her in trouble with child protective services? This sounds like a really difficult situation.

When I was in high school, a friend was being molested by her father. None of our families would even acknowledge that it could be real, except the family of a male friend. She moved in with his family and then was able to track down her older sister (who had left home at 16 for the same reason) and her sister, who was over 18, got custody. It was a happy ending. A female friend and I were upset that our parents wouldn't let us help because it would have been easier. The family of the male friend really stuck their necks out because we were all 14. Nothing was ever officially done about the father, but the girl was rescued.

I would trust your judgment about keeping your daughter safe. It sounds like she is either more sensitive than most kids, or that this is a really toxic situation, or both. Either way, protecting her needs to come first. Being honest with her about your concerns is probably a good place to start. It would be nice if you could rescue the boy, but you may not be able to.

I may be totally overreacting because of my friend's situation, so take this in context but I keep thinking of the expression "there's no smoke without fire."

Jae




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ilona Amador

Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son hiding what he's doing from his mom?  I made a mistake of allowing my daughter on you-tube.  Phone calls started, from boys way older than her, and she's not even close to be allowed to date.  She started spending all her time on the phone or on the computer.  Then the rebelliousness began.  Things I never expected from her.  She knows about the difficulties both of her parents had to go through, never having as many great things as she and her brother have-material things, freedom, 2 parent household.  But all of a sudden, when asked to do her chores, she'd respond with hate and "I feel like a slave" (for cleaning her room, doing dishes or feeding the pets).  Then she stole $60 from us, not even thinking we'd know???  So she lost all her privileges-phone, computer, friends.  I thinks there's something inherently wrong with a child doing such activities behind a parent's back, no
matter what the parent's reasoning, and having another parent support this!

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> Maybe your emotions are magnifying hers.
>
>
>
> Don't experience her emotions. Keep yourself whole and centered and
> strong so when she comes home she has someone strong and who's not
> also being swayed and buffetted by the situation with the other
family.
>
>
>
> Don't let the other mom's actions affect you YOU are. You can be
> your own happy self and be a haven of peace for her and the
> boyfriend, or you can fall into the emotional roller coaster and make
> a tense situation worse.
>


All of that bears repeating! I have experienced this! I've gotten
emotionally involved, then had to back out and recenter because I needed
to be the stable and centered one. It's hard because you see your child
in pain and you want to alleviate it, you absorb it a little and
empathize a little and you can FEEL it. It will help so much better to
step out of that, to be strong and safe and don't allow yourself to be
sucked into that.

In so doing, I was able to show my daughter how to do it. It wasn't
something I intended as the outcome, it just happened as a natural
course of her watching and absorbing. We had a lot of conversations
about it. A lot of me listening and asking what she'd like from me,
what I could do to help. Eventually she came to realize that it wasn't
something she could change, she did realize that she didn't have to put
up with it or be around it. That was the one thing that she COULD do.
It didn't make it any less painful. Even after a year, she still feels
sore about it, but as I've pointed out, and she realizes herself, she
doesn't have to live with it like her friend does. That is a small
consolation, but one that allows her to see how much better her own life
is.

Chrisi Lewis

I'm sure my emotions are magnifyig hers. I feel terrible, but I
don't know how to keep my emotions from her since she's so close to
me.

I really do want to be the haven of peace she needs so badly. How
did you recenter?

Chrisi


--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > Maybe your emotions are magnifying hers.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't experience her emotions. Keep yourself whole and centered
and
> > strong so when she comes home she has someone strong and who's not
> > also being swayed and buffetted by the situation with the other
> family.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't let the other mom's actions affect you YOU are. You can be
> > your own happy self and be a haven of peace for her and the
> > boyfriend, or you can fall into the emotional roller coaster and
make
> > a tense situation worse.
> >
>
>
> All of that bears repeating! I have experienced this! I've gotten
> emotionally involved, then had to back out and recenter because I
needed
> to be the stable and centered one. It's hard because you see your
child
> in pain and you want to alleviate it, you absorb it a little and
> empathize a little and you can FEEL it. It will help so much
better to
> step out of that, to be strong and safe and don't allow yourself to
be
> sucked into that.
>
> In so doing, I was able to show my daughter how to do it. It wasn't
> something I intended as the outcome, it just happened as a natural
> course of her watching and absorbing. We had a lot of conversations
> about it. A lot of me listening and asking what she'd like from me,
> what I could do to help. Eventually she came to realize that it
wasn't
> something she could change, she did realize that she didn't have to
put
> up with it or be around it. That was the one thing that she COULD
do.
> It didn't make it any less painful. Even after a year, she still
feels
> sore about it, but as I've pointed out, and she realizes herself,
she
> doesn't have to live with it like her friend does. That is a small
> consolation, but one that allows her to see how much better her own
life
> is.
>

k

There's plenty of fire even without those circumstances. But yes sometimes
the stuff that looks like that's all there is .. is a cover for other
stuff. It sounds plenty difficult enough as it has been described.

~Katherine



On 8/22/08, J Geller <gellerjh@...> wrote:
>
> I had thought they were 17 but someone else said 14. How old are they?
> If he is almost 18, offering to rescue him might help. It sounds like such a
> dreadful, toxic situation. Does the mother drink or physically abuse the
> kids? Anything that could get her in trouble with child protective services?
> This sounds like a really difficult situation.
>
> When I was in high school, a friend was being molested by her father. None
> of our families would even acknowledge that it could be real, except the
> family of a male friend. She moved in with his family and then was able to
> track down her older sister (who had left home at 16 for the same reason)
> and her sister, who was over 18, got custody. It was a happy ending. A
> female friend and I were upset that our parents wouldn't let us help because
> it would have been easier. The family of the male friend really stuck their
> necks out because we were all 14. Nothing was ever officially done about the
> father, but the girl was rescued.
>
> I would trust your judgment about keeping your daughter safe. It sounds
> like she is either more sensitive than most kids, or that this is a really
> toxic situation, or both. Either way, protecting her needs to come first.
> Being honest with her about your concerns is probably a good place to start.
> It would be nice if you could rescue the boy, but you may not be able to.
>
> I may be totally overreacting because of my friend's situation, so take
> this in context but I keep thinking of the expression "there's no smoke
> without fire."
>
> Jae
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chrisi Lewis

--- In [email protected], "J Geller" <gellerjh@...>
wrote:
>
> I had thought they were 17 but someone else said 14. How old are
they? If he is almost 18, offering to rescue him might help. It
sounds like such a dreadful, toxic situation. Does the mother drink
or physically abuse the kids? Anything that could get her in trouble
with child protective services? This sounds like a really difficult
situation.

> When I was in high school, a friend was being molested by her
father. None of our families would even acknowledge that it could be
real, except the family of a male friend. She moved in with his
family and then was able to track down her older sister (who had left
home at 16 for the same reason) and her sister, who was over 18, got
custody. It was a happy ending. A female friend and I were upset that
our parents wouldn't let us help because it would have been easier.
The family of the male friend really stuck their necks out because we
were all 14. Nothing was ever officially done about the father, but
the girl was rescued.
>
> I would trust your judgment about keeping your daughter safe. It
sounds like she is either more sensitive than most kids, or that this
is a really toxic situation, or both. Either way, protecting her
needs to come first. Being honest with her about your concerns is
probably a good place to start. It would be nice if you could rescue
the boy, but you may not be able to.

> I may be totally overreacting because of my friend's situation, so
take this in context but I keep thinking of the expression "there's
no smoke without fire."
>
> Jae
>
They are 14. I wish they were closer to 18!

I have been letting Rachel know my concerns, and we've also talked
about rescuing Trai. He's only 14, though, so I would have to report
his mom to the authorities and let them investigate her while he went
to a foster home. I don't know if that would be better for him or
not. I do know that Trai's mom was investigated about 3 years ago.
I have heard that she pushes him down their stairs if he's not moving
fast enough for her, and that she throws things at him. Also, he
hurt his hip a year ago and has had a lot of pain and trouble moving
it since then. His friend's family took him to a chiropractor who
took x-rays of it and found that it had been way out of place so long
that muscle had actually grown around it. It's stuck in the wrong
position now. In order to fix it he would have to have surgery to
cut the muscle and put the hip back where it belongs. I'm pretty
sure that not ever getting his hip looked at would be neglect.

I think it's a combination of this being a very toxic situation and
Rachel being sensitive. Rachel is one of those musician, artist,
dancer, poet types, and I think she is more sensitive than other
people.
>
Chrisi
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Margaret

Given the way his mom is treating him and controlling him, I think
hiding things from her is normal and to be expected.

As for tacitly supporting this by not telling on the kids... why on
earth should she? That would destroy the trust her daughter has in
her (she knows about all this because her daughter told her) to
support the other parent's controlling behavior which she disagrees
with. If she thought it was wrong to communicate secretly, I guess
she could tell her daughter that she thinks they shouldn't lie to the
mom, but the fact that the other woman is a mother doesn't make her
automatically right and the son automatically wrong. The mom doesn't
seem to be a keeper... more someone that you put up with because you
have no choice and then when you can get out from under her, you run
like hell.

My children are young now, but whenever I read the threads about
teenagers I am VERY glad that I discovered radical unschooling. I
don't want to be anything like that mother.

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Ilona Amador <ilonadragon@...> wrote:
> Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son hiding what
> he's doing from his mom? I made a mistake of allowing my daughter on
> you-tube. Phone calls started, from boys way older than her, and she's not
> even close to be allowed to date. She started spending all her time on the
> phone or on the computer. Then the rebelliousness began. Things I never
> expected from her. She knows about the difficulties both of her parents had
> to go through, never having as many great things as she and her brother
> have-material things, freedom, 2 parent household. But all of a sudden,
> when asked to do her chores, she'd respond with hate and "I feel like a
> slave" (for cleaning her room, doing dishes or feeding the pets). Then she
> stole $60 from us, not even thinking we'd know??? So she lost all her
> privileges-phone, computer, friends. I thinks there's something inherently
> wrong with a child doing such activities behind a parent's back, no
> matter what the parent's reasoning, and having another parent support this!
>
> Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
> that take our breath away

Joyce Fetteroll

--- In [email protected], Ilona Amador <ilonadragon@...> wrote:
** Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son hiding what he's
doing from his mom? **

Which is why a lot of words are spent on this and similar unschooling lists on how to build
relationships with your kids. Control of kids is an illusion. If kids feel we're standing
between them and what they want, do parents really think kids will give up? What we, in
effect do by trying to control them, is create a reason for them to become defiant and lie
and sneak behind our backs.

And, really, should kids (people) give up when there's an obstacle between them and what
they want? We cheer the heros in stories for sticking by their values and goals despite the
odds. We ground kids and call them rotten for doing the same.

Just because we believe we're right, doesn't give us the right to impose that on others.
*Every* dictator has believed he's right. As unschoolers we have the opportunity to model
better methods than dictatorship.

We have the opportunity to build relationships with our kids so when they have something
they want they know they can come to us and we can help them find ways to get it in safe
and



** I made a mistake of allowing my daughter on you-tube. Phone calls started, from boys
way older than her, and she's not even close to be allowed to date. **

My 17 yo daughter has been "on" YouTube for a while (watching lots, uploading a few
things). She isn't receiving calls from boys, younger or older.

There's something more going on. Where are they getting her number? Why does she want
to give her phone number out? It's not YouTube that's dangerous. It's unmet needs and no
safe, supportive way to meet those needs.

** She started spending all her time on the phone or on the computer. Then the
rebelliousness began. **

My daughter spends lots of time on the phone and on the computer IMing and keeping in
touch with through message boards with kids she's met on the internet without rebelling.

There isn't a need to rebel when needs are met.

** She knows about the difficulties both of her parents had to go through, never having as
many great things as she and her brother have-material things, freedom, 2 parent
household. **

*Lots* of kids of people who grew up in the depression were told how grateful they should
feel for all they have. It's a really great way to tear relationships down and build
resentment.

** But all of a sudden, when asked to do her chores, she'd respond with hate and "I feel
like a slave" (for cleaning her room, doing dishes or feeding the pets). **

If we respond to kids from their point of view rather than the point of view we think they
should have, we have a much better chance of communicating with them. There's a reason
she feels like a slave whether you agree or not. If you approach her from a point of
understanding, it's more likely she'll open up. If you don't get defensive and tell her she's
wrong, if you accept that what you feel is right feels wrong to her, you'll be able to help
rather than continuing on the path you're on.

A really great book is Parent/Teen Breakthrough:
http://tinyurl.com/6e4oge

** Then she stole $60 from us, not even thinking we'd know??? So she lost all her
privileges-phone, computer, friends. I thinks there's something inherently wrong with a
child doing such activities behind a parent's back, no matter what the parent's reasoning,
and having another parent support this! **

Kids don't end up at the point of stealing and lying and rebelliousness because they're
teens or because they're bad. It's because they have needs that are going unmet. And
they're desperately trying to find ways to meet them.

After a while, people do get to the point where they're "acting out" doing things they don't
really want to in order to show their contempt for those who are controlling them.

You do have the chance to repair the relationship. The book will help loads. You've gotten
to the point where you are adversaries. If you are her partner, she doesn't need to sneak
and lie.

Being her partner doesn't mean driving her to meet men she's met on YouTube. It does
mean helping her find safe ways to make the connections she's trying to make.

Control is an illusion. She *can* run away. There's nothing stopping her. She can run to
one of the guys she had talked to on the phone because he might give her the illusions
he's there to help her. Don't make her run away to find people who want to help her
explore what she needs to explore. Be there to help her find safe ways to do it.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-...but by the moments that take our breath away.-=-

Your post, on an unschooling list, took my breath away.

-=-I made a mistake of allowing my daughter on you-tube. -=-

What did she PUT on YouTube? Just being there won't get her phone
calls.

-=-Phone calls started, from boys way older than her, and she's not
even close to be allowed to date. She started spending all her time
on the phone or on the computer.-=-

She had to give out her phone number to get phone calls. The
important part of your story needs to start before the idea that you
made a mistake and let her on you-tube.

How old is she?
Was she in school?
How long have you been unschooling?

-=-She knows about the difficulties both of her parents had to go
through, never having as many great things as she and her brother
have-material things, freedom, 2 parent household. -=-

No she didn't. She had heard stories, but she has no real basis for
comparison. She's not in your head. Nor should you try to insert
your history into her head as a guilt mechanism.

-=-But all of a sudden, when asked to do her chores,...-=-

http://sandradodd.com/chores
Having chores is what caused the problem, not YouTube.

-=- Then she stole $60 from us, not even thinking we'd know??? So
she lost all her privileges-phone, computer, friends.-=-

What did she need the money for. If she asked you for money would
you have given her any? Does she get an allowance or have a way to
get a job?

-=-So she lost all her privileges-phone, computer, friends.-=-

Is that helping with your relationship? Do you think you can really
take her friends away from her? I think you will only make her long
for them more.

How can she feel whole and real and successful at this point without
lying to you? If you win, she loses.

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
http://sandradodd.com/chores

-=-Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son
hiding what he's doing from his mom? -=-

I see that the mom hasn't earned his trust and has tried to keep him
childish and small instead of strong and whole.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I thinks there's something inherently wrong with a child doing
such activities behind a parent's back, no
matter what the parent's reasoning, and having another parent support
this!-=-



What if a Church of Christ child wanted to learn to play hymns on the
piano? (I'm fishing for examples, but if a principle is going to be
considered valid, it needs to cover most-to-all bases.)



What if a child is being emotionally abused and wants to tell an aunt
or uncle?

What if a child is being sexually abused, and no matter what the
parent's reasoning, wants to get help?



What if a parent is causing a child to break the law, and the child
wants the help of the police? If the police officer is another
parent, should loyalty to other parents prevent him or her from
doing her duty?



A friend of mine ran away this summer. He ran from his dad's house
(which he should have done years ago) and was afraid to contact his
mom because his dad had assured him that if the mom helped him she
would be arrested for violating the court orders. (They're separated
but not divorced and the dad is tyrannical to all of them.)

The first thing I did was ask Holly to let me leave him a note
through MySpace offering my cellphone number and to help. He didn't
call, but we knew he had read it after a few days and I felt MUCH
better, as did his mom. And we passed a message from his mom saying
it had been arranged that he could stay with her, and so he called
her and went to her house.



According to "I thinks there's something inherently wrong with a
child doing such activities behind a parent's back, no matter what
the parent's reasoning, and having another parent support this!" then
both his mom and I were wrong.



I disagree.

Vincent is a good person, but young. His dad is a mean person, but
grown.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I'm sure my emotions are magnifyig hers. I feel terrible, but I
> don't know how to keep my emotions from her since she's so close to
> me.
>
> I really do want to be the haven of peace she needs so badly. How
> did you recenter?
>


It was hard, really hard. The man was/is a terrible person and it's
really hard not to be bitter towards him. It was making all of us
miserable, it infected our house like a disease. I had to stop that
from happening.

I stepped out of the drama. I don't talk to that man at all, ever,
period! All communication goes through the kids, or sometimes the mom
or step mom. I cut him out of the picture. Yes, he still does yucky
things, but once I stepped out of all of it, I was able to breathe and
relax and focus on what was good and happy, which was most definitely
not him! Now watching on the sidelines a bit, I can see him spiraling
out of control, he's lost the game. Once your kids hate you, you've
lost, at least that's how I feel about it.

One time he accused me of disrespecting his parenting, and I told him he
was right, that I really had no respect at all for the way he parents,
and it's absolutely true. It felt good to say it! I love my daughter,
I respect her choices, I love my daughter's friend and I feel really
badly that she has such a horrible father. If I could, I would change
it, but I can't, so I don't try. I'm just here, for listening and
talking and offering advice.

Jenny C

> Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son hiding
what he's doing from his mom? I made a mistake of allowing my daughter
on you-tube...........I thinks there's something inherently wrong with a
child doing such activities behind a parent's back, no
> matter what the parent's reasoning, and having another parent support
this!
>


I would much rather support a child trying to get what they want than a
parent who is being mean and controlling. It is completely natural for
a child to go behind a parent's back when the parent has set up rules
and guidelines in an effort to control that child's behavior. It's
better to help a child find ways to get what they want in safe and happy
ways, then strictly forbid it. Parents set their kids up to defy them
just to get what they want and need in life.

Kids grow up and meet potential mates, forbidding and controlling a
natural process seems like a really bad idea. It has always seemed a
better idea to help a young person through that process with talking and
guidance. All people have reactionary behavior to control and
manipulation. A parent simple can't know how that kind of reaction will
go, except that it creates division between parent and child when there
need not be. Some kids run away or kill themselves or escape through
drugs and other self destructive behavior, some simply grow up and move
away and make forced calls on mother's day or father's day, some don't
even do that.

Kids grow up and do what they want to do regardless of wether the parent
wants them to or not. It just seems so much better to go through that
process in a manner that ends with parent and child still talking and
friendly. So all the choices a parent makes in a child's life should go
that direction, with the end result being a happy friendly relationship.

carnationsgalore

> Just wondering--am I the only one who sees a problem with a son
> hiding what he's doing from his mom? 

I have a bumper sticker on my van that I ordered through The Natural
Child Project. It reads "Children learn respect by example." I
believe this was not a family that modeled respect appropriately for
their children.

I know a 16 year old girl who is moving this week to another state to
live with her dad. Her mom has driven her away by trying to control
everything this child does. This parent belittles this teenager with
words that make me cringe. I'm surprised she's put with being
treated that way for as long as she has. This poor girl has been in
my home sobbing in despair on many occasions. I have no respect for
this woman. I am not suprised that her daughter has absolutely no
respect for this woman at this time. Maybe things will change in the
future, but I doubt it. Her mom puts all kinds of conditions on her
love.

This teenager has hidden many things from her mom and I've known
about some of them. Had her mother known, she would have used those
things as more ammunition to hurt this child again and again. And
I'm talking about this child's hopes and dreams. That just breaks my
heart that she can't share her hopes and dreams with her mother. Her
mother has her entire life planned out including the type of man (and
race) her daughter must marry or risk losing her mother's love. My
teenage friend has decided that love isn't real and isn't worth
trying to attain anymore.

Beth M.

Joyce Fetteroll

> ** She started spending all her time on the phone or on the computer. Then the
> rebelliousness began. **

What I'm about to say isn't meant to point accusatory fingers. Obviously we can only begin where
we are with our kids. We can't go back in time with new knowledge and change the way we did
things.

But for parents with 3 yos who are running off in the stores, or 6 yos who want to ride their
bikes father than you're comfortable with, the problems don't get easier as they get older!
*Now* is the time to build trust between you. Be their partner in finding safe and respectful ways
to meet the needs they have. (Post here if you're having problems seeing ways.)

Be the person they know they can come to when they want help doing something. If you're being
mama bear keeping them safe from the big scary world, they *will* get older and big enough to
push you aside and find ways to get what they want.

It's *much* easier to build the trust now than to wait until they've already decided your reaching
out to help is just a new tactic to control them. Much easier to help them trust you when it's
about finding safe ways to run than when the choices are about sex and drugs.

Joyce

Chrisi Lewis

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Please help me with ideas that might help this mom. I'm quoting
from
> e-mail, and I'm really hoping for ideas to soothe, repair,
brainstorm...
> The mom isn't on this list but I've invited her own. If she
wants
> to quietly read that's fine, and if she wants to say "Hi, that's
me!"
> that's okay too; either way.
>
>
> -=- I'm so stressed I can't think! I have a 14 year old daughter,
> and I could really use some advice!! -=-
>
> Her daughter is an only child and they live in the southeastern U.S.
> We can call her "Rachel's mom."
>
> ***************************

>I've been away from my computer for a week or so. Wow! A lot goes
on in here just a week!

I just wanted to thank everybody so much for helping me with ideas
and support. I am overwhelmed that anyone would take the time to
talk to me about our situation. I have been so encouraged and
empowered by all your advice. I haven't felt so supported since,
well, ever. Here in the southeast the general attitude toward
children is that they belong to their parents in a way similar to
owning pets or property and are supposed to blindly obey their
parents to the letter. Period. No questions asked. And if they
delay for a moment, that is considered disobedience, because it makes
the parents have to repeat themselves, which means the child didn't
do what "it" was told in the first place. Just hearing your replies
to me and to the mom who thought I was wrong to support my daughter
and her boyfriend has helped me more than I can even say. You
reminded me that I count too and so does Rachel. I'm morphing back
into myself slowly but surely.

To update you on Rachel and Trai's situation:
Not much has changed for Trai, but Rachel has decided to start being
less available to Trai's mom. Yea, Rachel!! It means seeing Trai
less, but I'm proud of her for seeing that she doesn't deserve to be
treated like that. Rachel can't call him, but Trai is very faithful
about keeping in touch through secret phone calls and the computer on
the days they don't get together, and they're still doing fine.
Unfortunately, it has also made Trai's mom dislike Rachel. And, of
course, she's taking it out on Trai with long lists of jobs for him
to do on top of the normal chores she makes him do, which are very
excessive even for a family who believes in chores. Also, I talked
to Trai's mom and asked her if we could come up with a schedule of
regular times that Trai and Rachel can get together. She loved that
because of the almighty s word (schedule), and we came up with 3 days
a week that they can count on for sure being able to get together.
That took some of the desperation out of the relationship for Trai
and Rachel because they know that they will see each other at least 3
times a week. And maybe more if Trai is very obedient and works hard
enough for some free time. His mom actually said that. Wow, huh?
Rachel's cousin told her that this is a really good way to be able to
tell that Trai really cares about her. Look how hard he works just
to be able to see her. His life would be a lot easier without her.

I still haven't heard of any unschooling conferences. Does anybody
know of any? I have heard of Not Back to School Camp, though. Does
anybody know anything about that? It looks really cool to me.

Thank you again for all your support! You all rock!
~Chrisi Lewis, Rachel's mom

k

Very glad to hear that Rachael found a way to maintain her personal space.
A couple of things stuck out at me.

Unfortunately, it has also made Trai's mom dislike Rachel. And, of
course, she's taking it out on Trai with long lists of jobs for him
to do on top of the normal chores she makes him do, which are very
excessive even for a family who believes in chores.

Is it (was it ever) really a matter of like or dislike. Does Trai's mom
talk like that about Rachael? If so, that seems to confuse the issue
considerably. Rachael and Trai's mom are philosophically opposed in some
important areas. It may look like, walk like and act like dislike, but
like/dislike is a moot point to consider because if the philosophy were to
change to agreement on either side, then the tone of the relationships would
also change.

And maybe more if Trai is very obedient and works hard
> enough for some free time. His mom actually said that. Wow, huh?
> Rachel's cousin told her that this is a really good way to be able to
> tell that Trai really cares about her. Look how hard he works just
> to be able to see her. His life would be a lot easier without her.
>

For a child with a parent who is that controling, chores don't really
matter. You could pile Mount Everest on his shoulders and if he thought it
meant he would gain more appreciation or more freedoms or something, it
could be worth it to him. It seems to me that Trai's mom is an uber
proponent of the carrot/stick approach. Trai is being "trained" every
moment he's in his mom's home. He may not have any idea what he thinks
about Rachael or what he wants, really. Trai can't be himself as long as he
is under his mom's control.

~Katherine


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Meghan Anderson-Coates

<<<<<<I still haven't heard of any unschooling conferences. Does anybody
know of any?>>>>>>
�
http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/%ef%bf%bdThis one is this week in North Carolina, so maybe you can pack up and get to it. Apparently, it's the last year it's going to happen. Kelly (the organizer) is on this list, but I figure she's a bit busy at the moment <g>.
�
http://www.rethinkingeducation.com/%ef%bf%bdThis is also this week, but it's in Texas.
�
http://www.lifeisgoodconference.com/%ef%bf%bdThis is in Washington State on Memorial Day weekend.
�
http://www.northeastunschoolingconference.com/%ef%bf%bdThis is in Massachusetts on Memorial Day weekend.


�
Meghan
�

Why not go out on a limb? Isn�t that where the fruit is?
~ Frank Scully




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Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 2, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Meghan Anderson-Coates wrote:

> <<<<<<I still haven't heard of any unschooling conferences. Does
> anybody
> know of any?>>>>>>
>
> http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/ This one is this week in
> North Carolina, so maybe you can pack up and get to it. Apparently,
> it's the last year it's going to happen. Kelly (the organizer) is on
> this list, but I figure she's a bit busy at the moment <g>.
>
> http://www.rethinkingeducation.com/ This is also this week, but it's
> in Texas.
>
> http://www.lifeisgoodconference.com/ This is in Washington State on
> Memorial Day weekend.
>
> http://www.northeastunschoolingconference.com/ This is in
> Massachusetts on Memorial Day weekend.
>

And "The Good Vibrations Unschooling Conference" will be in San Diego
next year - September 2009. Another offshoot of Live and Learn!

There are other conferences that include radical unschoolers - Sandra
Dodd and I and our families will all be at the Arizona conference in
March 2009.

Also some of the other inclusive state conferences have very strong
unschooling components - the HSC conference in August every year in
Sacramento, for example.

-pam


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