Belinda

I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed a
tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days? I know I haven't
been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly. That is
a big beef of mine. Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper
grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
book teaching?
Belinda

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed a
tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days?-=-



Some do and some don't.

When I publish something wonderful some has written here, sometimes I
spruce it up a bit with better punctuation or capitalization or
whatnot. I rarely change a whole word, but I'll tweak and polish
slightly.

For the purposes of this list, the ideas are much more important than
the technicalities of their presentation.

If you find grammatical or spelling errors on my webpages (anything
starting off SandraDodd.com) I'd be glad to make repairs. I like
getting e-mail about errors in formatting or bad links or any of
that. I don't promise to regard any recommendation for a comma
change, though, because sometimes writing as one speaks can require
some dashes and commas. I don't mind that; I like it.

I recently found a spelling list in my 25-year-old writing that says

LEARN TO SPELL

apparently

unnecessary

balloon

innocence

So those were the words I was having trouble with then. I guess I
also have trouble throwing things away, as that list is on my desk
thirty years later. (Not the same desk. The list has had adventures
in books and boxes.)



I do vocal and instrumental music with small groups sometimes.
There's a difference between singing for fun or to learn a song and
in performing it. And there's another level of requirement and
expectation if it's going to be recorded, or if someone's paying us
to perform it.

I think it's the same with writing. If you're writing for fun and
information, spelling isn't important. If on a grocery list we
abbreviate things or misspell them, it doesn't matter. If I'm
writing a letter I'm more careful with spelling and format and either
write very carefully or I type (word-process-and-print). If I'm
writing for publication, I'm try not to use the same word twice in
the same piece of writing, I note the length of sentences and the
cadence of the words, wondering how they might sound read aloud.

There are different needs for different purposes.

http://sandradodd.com/writing

There are some things from earlier discussions.

Holly is more interested in spelling and punctuation than her
brothers are, but just the other day Kirby and I discussed semi-
colons. He never cared before now.



Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

If I worried too much about spelling and grammer I wouldnt write at
all. These are obviously not my area of strengh. My dh on the other
hand is obsessed with it and teases me all the time. picking out typos
in everything I write. he is one of "those people" who see typos
everywhere and remembers how to spell anything after one viewing. I on
the other hand still have to think very hard about the which too, to,
or two to use.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groupsand have noticed a
tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days? I know I haven't
been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly. That is
a big beef of mine. Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper
grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
book teaching?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
 
I could bet with you that most of those making those errors
have been to school and taught proper grammar by teachers.
But there are also people like me whose English is not their native
language.
I am not too bad but I do make errors writing and talking. I am not worse than
the average traditionally schooled adult.
I learned most of what I know of the  English language from just talking and living surrounded by it at a much later age than school children.
 
 
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clarissa Fetrow

>> I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed
a tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days?
I love spelling, always have. And I think my grammar is good too. Even if
I started that last sentence with a conjunction. It just felt write to
punctuate it that way. And even though the third sentence was really just a
clause. And I can proofread well, but sometimes I'm just so eager to hit
'send' and communicate. Sometimes when I'm reading written material, I
literally circle errors with a pen, even if it's in the newspaper and I
can't change it. I'm an editor at heart. But I've learned over the past
few years that focusing on other people's errors only makes me dissatisfied,
and doesn't improve the world at all. I used to think it was practically my
moral duty to notify people of their typos. (What a fun gal I was!) Now,
if it's someone who actually says they want to be alerted to mistakes, like
Sandra did in her post, I might tell them, but even then I often don't
anymore. Instead, I can just move on from errors I see, telling myself "I
knew what they meant to say."


>> I know I haven't been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do
make sure that when she does any writing at all that it is spelled
correctly. That is a big beef of mine.

Gotta tell you, it scares me to hear that expressing herself in writing is
contingent on the spelling being to your standards, not hers. If I cared
about you and your opinions as much as she presumably does, I would avoid
writing around you, maybe even around other people too.


>> Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper grammar from their
children while unschooling without having to do any book teaching?

Modeling and playing with language, a lot. We love talking, rhyming,
accents, etymology. My daughter is five, and her spoken grammar is pretty
excellent, even though I haven't even started talking to her about what
nouns and adjectives are.

I'm glad you're here, Belinda, I've been learning a tremendous amount
reading this list.

Clarissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Aug 17, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> I think it's the same with writing. If you're writing for fun and
> information, spelling isn't important. If on a grocery list we
> abbreviate things or misspell them, it doesn't matter.

Our family has its own words for many grocery items, based on running
jokes, such as:

so-duh (soda)
malk (soy milk -- I think that's a Simpson's joke)
scream (ice cream)
whine (wine)
brouhaha or mmmbeer (beer)

Stores have strange names, too; Smart and Final is Fart and Smile, and
Albertsons is Albatross. We try to not write those on the actual
checks, but they always go in the check register that way ;-)

Nancy

Clare Kirkpatrick

I think that grammar online is always rubbish because people type quickly
and don't re-read what they wrote all the time. Also, most of us were
schooled I guess! :-P

I think that good grammar comes from reading, and reading, and reading. I
didn't get taught grammar at school (much to my grandparents' disgust) but I
learnt a lot about English grammar when I studied French and German at
A-Level (I'm in the UK). However, I already had a very good understanding
of grammar just from reading, and have always been a good speller, for the
same reason. I think children who grow up in a family that loves books will
also develop a love of books and will therefore absorb grammar and spelling
with little or no trouble at all. And then you can encourage them to read
funny books (obviously just for fun!) about grammar like 'Eats, Shoots and
Leaves' when they're older, which is a fab book ;-)

Clare
x

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Belinda
Sent: 18 August 2008 04:19
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Grammar


I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed a
tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days? I know I haven't
been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly. That is
a big beef of mine. Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper
grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
book teaching?
Belinda

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 17, 2008, at 11:18 PM, Belinda wrote:

> Does no one care about grammar these days?

Depends where you read. Not all contexts require good grammar.

Depends how badly the people were damaged by teachers who decided
those kids needed to learn good grammar or else. Depends how defiant
those kids are in wanting -- needing! -- to freely express themselves
in ways that would have played out when they were younger if given
the freedom to do so. Depends how angry they are at the control and
how determined they are to thumb their noses at the teachers for
trying to control them so spel enny wich way they dam wel plz.

> I know I haven't
> been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
> when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly. That is
> a big beef of mine.

If you tried new recipes and asked someone to taste it and they
always pointed out the lack of visual appeal of your dicing technique
and your presentation on the plate, which wasn't what you cared about
at the moment, how often would you ask them to taste it?

We can't make someone care about what we do. But we *can* make them
acquire a distaste for what we care about if we try to impose our
priorities on them.

Educators do it all the time. How many kids hate and avoid math and
science and writing and reading because schools wanted to "make sure"
they knew those subjects? Educators get the satisfaction of having
done their part by "making sure" the kids are exposed to what they
"need to know". If the kids fail to retain it or even like it, that's
the kids' fault.

Yeah.

Computers can (to an extent) point out grammar errors. My spelling
gets checked instantly as a type. (Tho even its knot purr-fact. ;-)

Computers, though, aren't creative. If we put a mundane mechanical
hoop for the child to jump through in order to express themselves,
what have we lost when they decide expressing themselves isn't worth
the hoop?

You can make your daughter go through the motions of learning proper
grammar. You can't make her like it. You can't make her want to use
it. You might make her hate it. You might make her want to avoid
writing so she can avoid you pointing out how inadequate she is.

Occasionally I would ask my daughter if she wanted me to point out
grammar errors. Sometimes she did. Sometimes she didn't. What was
important was the freedom to play with ideas, not the presentation.

> Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper
> grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
> book teaching?

How could your husband get you to iron a shirt perfectly? (Or
something you have no interest in learning to do right now?)

Would book teaching work? Would making you practice work? How would
you feel about him doing that to you? How would you feel about
perfectly ironed shirts? What if he thought a perfectly ironed shirt
was really important and that's why he wanted you to understand how
important it was by making you do the shirts to his standards?

My reaction would be "If *you* think it's so darn important, then
*you* do it!"

(If, on the other hand, he thought it was important and struggled at
it mightily and you weren't bad at it, it might feel like a nice
thing to do for him *if* you knew he didn't expect you to, *if* you
knew he appreciated it, *if* you knew he'd take the task back
willingly when you said you were done. (And maybe he doesn't know
about shirts that don't need ironed. ;-) And maybe doesn't know to
take them out and hang them up as soon as the drier's done and not
leave them sitting in there.))

We can't make them like grammar. We *can* make them hate grammar. We
can influence them. We can enjoy grammar for our own purposes and
draw them into the things we like by our love of it (and respect
their freedom to say "No, thanks, not interested.")

> Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper
> grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
> book teaching?

By understanding there are good reasons behind good grammar. (Makes
reading easier to understand, for one.) By trusting they will read
tons of good and poor grammar and be able to judge for themselves
which is easier to read. By trusting that they will use their good
judgement on what level of grammar they feel is appropriate to a
particular situation.

By trusting -- and this is a biggy and applies to so many things in
life -- that even if they aren't doing something doesn't mean they
don't understand the benefits of it.

Here's something my 17 yo daughter recently wrote. She's a good
writer because she enjoys it and has had the freedom to write in
whatever manner pleased her throughout her years. (Automatic spell
checking has been a big boon to her spelling.) And even though she
*can* use proper grammar and *can* correct her own spelling, she
chose to write the following because it was appropriate to the context:

"OMG AND WE'RE A'HAVIN TORNADOS! 83 THE THUNDER BOOMS MUCHLY OUTSIDE!
YAYSAUCE TIMES FIFTY!! I think it's... niftysauce. ;* Sort of. Not
really. Actually, not at all. O_o wheeee! (dun use me for an english
example thing for good grammer stuffs and spelling of correct
werdz..woooo)"

As unschoolers, the goal isn't to trust them to always make the same
choices we would. We trust them to be intelligent enough to learn why
things are done certain ways and to hone their judgement through
trial and error and observation on what standards to use when.

Joyce

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Belinda <b.newbold@...>


I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed a
tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
Does no one care about grammar these days?

-=-=-=-=

Having lurked on a LOT of email lists over the years, I can assure you
that the unschooling lists, as a whole, seem to have a *much* better
grasp of grammar, syntax, and spelling. The "school-at-homer" (Doh!)
lists (you know---the ones with moms who will actually be TEACHING
grammar to their kids???) *those* lists need someone with a red pen to
edit each and every post!

Here, you're looking at the cream of the crop! <g>

-=-=-=-=-=-

I know I haven't
been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Any writing at ALL? Yucky. I don't see a LOT of what my kids are
writing. But if anything will be published----or if it's important to
them, they know they can come to me for editing/proofreading.

I don't care about my children's spelling. They have spell check, and I
have *much* more serious issues. Well, I *do* care, but we have such
easy and readily available tools at our disposal now!

-=-=-=-=-=-

That is a big beef of mine. Can anyone tell me how they go about
getting proper
grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
book teaching?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Do you really think you need "book teaching" to use proper grammar?

I have a problem (which is silly because there's absolutely nothing I
can do about it!) with people who are PAID to announce on---or write
for---TV/movies. I think that, if you're writing or announcing *for a
living*, you should spend some time to learn the language. Don't make
stupid, common mistakes. So I yell at the TV...a lot.

I think that, if you are publishing a book, you should find someone who
knows more than you do and hire him to edit your work. (I *just* read a
nice book SOOOO full of errors that it was painfully hard to finish.)

I try my best to *ALWAYS* speak properly. I *do* correct my boys'
grammar.

When I learned it in school, I had a pretty creepy teacher who would
scream out, "Phrase or clause? Noun or not? If not noun, adjective. If
not adjective, adverb! And WWWWHHHHYYYYY???" I remember poor Cal
Harrelson in *tears* (even if he actually got the answer right!)
because he didn't know *why*. His answer every time would be, "Because
it sounds right?" WRONG answer. But a good lesson for *me*.

I don't want my children to think something "sounds right" unless it IS
right. So they have NEVER heard me say, "Me and Ben are going out
tonight." Never. Not ONCE.

They've NEVER heard me say:

"Go real slow."
"That's a good thing for you and I to be doing."
"I don't know if that's important."
"We can ask whomever is at the information booth."
"They was asking for it!"
"We literally died laughing."
"He resents me going."
"Who are you waiting to see?"
"I'm going to go lay down for a while."
"If I was queen, there would be no school."
"We have less chairs than we need."
"Just between you and I,..."
"He was hung."
"Can you loan me $10?"
"You should of picked that up."
"A child needs their questions answered."


Just a handful of very, VERY common mistakes ('though some are becoming
"vernacular"), but I don't want my children to think they are correct.
If they were to say anything similar to those examples above, I would
correct them---just as I correct newscasters. <g>. They don't have to
"fix" the problem----and they don't even have to acknowledge my
presence! <G> But I don't want bad grammar *in their heads*.

I'm willing to answer questions ANY time. Occasionally, one of the boys
will ask *why* something's wrong. I answer, but I try not to make it a
long explanation.

Cameron's been writing a lot lately. He'll often ask me to edit.
Usually he has the right *number* of commas; they're just in the wrong
places. <G> But it wasn't until just a few years ago that he started to
REALLY want to understand *why*. So I've started to explain the reasons
behind "possessives before gerunds" and "transitive and intransitive"
and "what adverbs and adjectives modify" and "predicate nominatives."
But because these aren't *totally* foreign concepts to him, they're
easier to grasp.

It's kind of like understanding the *CONCEPTS* of math and THEN adding
the symbols. Understand how to use everyday language (correctly!) and
THEN learn the *why*.

In a forum like *this*---where the thought process is more important
than the delivery---it's easier for me to let things go. This won't be
published (well, maybe electronically on Sandra's site <g>), and often
I'm more interested in getting supper made between posts. <G> But I
think published written works *should* be edited. And I think news
anchors *should* make spoken language a priority. And I think newspaper
owners should make their editors earn their paychecks. <G> But that's
just me. (*I*! <G>)

But as for "getting proper grammar" from my children: I choose to be
the example at all times. (In my opinion, Southerners *sound* stupid
enough with our accents; there's no need to add fuel to THAT fire! <g>)
If they hear it correctly from the get-go, it sounds natural and
"right." I want the *correct* way to sound "normal" to their ears.

So...be the example you want to see. <g>

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Ren Allen

~~
Just a handful of very, VERY common mistakes ('though some are becoming
"vernacular"), but I don't want my children to think they are correct.~~

I think people talk different than they write and since language is
evolving, what is "correct" today will NOT be tomorrow. "Mistakes" of
50 years ago are not considered incorrect now.

I think some people love grammar/language and wish everyone would
learn it as thoroughly as they have. I met a guy at the InHome
conference who kept stressing how EVERYONE needed to make sure their
children knew about radical numbers and degrees and being comfortable
with all sorts of mathematical concepts I've never needed. He was
passionate about math. It was really fun talking to him but HIS
passion doesn't mean everyone needs those same skills.

They're great tools if one is interested in them, but grammar and math
are only useful up to the point that the individual needs/wants those
skills (like everything else). We learn as we go. I certainly didn't
benefit from having grammar thrust upon me by adults in my life. I
really don't care about some of those grammar rules now...though once
in a while I'm prompted to research one.

Now color theory? I think everyone should learn THAT!;)
Understanding the relationships of colors, how to blend colors you
want and create the dynamics you want with color is a most useful
skill. I get annoyed when people don't know the difference between
peach and pink or can't see the slight variances in mixed colors.

We all have our areas of knowledge that we seem to learn more easily
due to an internal drive. For many, grammar/spelling just isn't a
driving force. There are plenty of tools to utilize should a person
need help with those. I personally would like to see more parents
talking about color theory. I mean, how many color theory challenged
people can this world handle? ;)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

~Here, you're looking at the cream of the crop!~

Now THAT I know! It wasn't this group I was referring to as much as the
others. Especially the local ones. I guess that's why everyone refers to
people in Alabama as being 'hicks' eh? Well, not all of us are. I admit to
being a redneck and a rebel, but not a hick.

--
~~Belinda~~
If you want to see God laugh,
make a plan.


---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Grammar
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:32:52 +0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Belinda <b.newbold@...>
>
>
> I've 'lurked' for a while on several Yahoo groups and have noticed a
> tremendous amount of grammatical errors and especially spelling errors.
> Does no one care about grammar these days?
>
> -=-=-=-=
>
> Having lurked on a LOT of email lists over the years, I can assure you
> that the unschooling lists, as a whole, seem to have a *much* better
> grasp of grammar, syntax, and spelling. The "school-at-homer" (Doh!)
> lists (you know---the ones with moms who will actually be TEACHING
> grammar to their kids???) *those* lists need someone with a red pen to
> edit each and every post!
>
> Here, you're looking at the cream of the crop! <g>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I know I haven't
> been 'teaching' my daughter grammar per se, but I do make sure that
> when she does any writing at all that it is spelled correctly.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Any writing at ALL? Yucky. I don't see a LOT of what my kids are
> writing. But if anything will be published----or if it's important to
> them, they know they can come to me for editing/proofreading.
>
> I don't care about my children's spelling. They have spell check, and I
> have *much* more serious issues. Well, I *do* care, but we have such
> easy and readily available tools at our disposal now!
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> That is a big beef of mine. Can anyone tell me how they go about
> getting proper
> grammar from their children while unschooling without having to do any
> book teaching?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Do you really think you need "book teaching" to use proper grammar?
>
> I have a problem (which is silly because there's absolutely nothing I
> can do about it!) with people who are PAID to announce on---or write
> for---TV/movies. I think that, if you're writing or announcing *for a
> living*, you should spend some time to learn the language. Don't make
> stupid, common mistakes. So I yell at the TV...a lot.
>
> I think that, if you are publishing a book, you should find someone who
> knows more than you do and hire him to edit your work. (I *just* read a
> nice book SOOOO full of errors that it was painfully hard to finish.)
>
> I try my best to *ALWAYS* speak properly. I *do* correct my boys'
> grammar.
>
> When I learned it in school, I had a pretty creepy teacher who would
> scream out, "Phrase or clause? Noun or not? If not noun, adjective. If
> not adjective, adverb! And WWWWHHHHYYYYY???" I remember poor Cal
> Harrelson in *tears* (even if he actually got the answer right!)
> because he didn't know *why*. His answer every time would be, "Because
> it sounds right?" WRONG answer. But a good lesson for *me*.
>
> I don't want my children to think something "sounds right" unless it IS
> right. So they have NEVER heard me say, "Me and Ben are going out
> tonight." Never. Not ONCE.
>
> They've NEVER heard me say:
>
> "Go real slow."
> "That's a good thing for you and I to be doing."
> "I don't know if that's important."
> "We can ask whomever is at the information booth."
> "They was asking for it!"
> "We literally died laughing."
> "He resents me going."
> "Who are you waiting to see?"
> "I'm going to go lay down for a while."
> "If I was queen, there would be no school."
> "We have less chairs than we need."
> "Just between you and I,..."
> "He was hung."
> "Can you loan me $10?"
> "You should of picked that up."
> "A child needs their questions answered."
>
>
> Just a handful of very, VERY common mistakes ('though some are becoming
> "vernacular"), but I don't want my children to think they are correct.
> If they were to say anything similar to those examples above, I would
> correct them---just as I correct newscasters. <g>. They don't have to
> "fix" the problem----and they don't even have to acknowledge my
> presence! <G> But I don't want bad grammar *in their heads*.
>
> I'm willing to answer questions ANY time. Occasionally, one of the boys
> will ask *why* something's wrong. I answer, but I try not to make it a
> long explanation.
>
> Cameron's been writing a lot lately. He'll often ask me to edit.
> Usually he has the right *number* of commas; they're just in the wrong
> places. <G> But it wasn't until just a few years ago that he started to
> REALLY want to understand *why*. So I've started to explain the reasons
> behind "possessives before gerunds" and "transitive and intransitive"
> and "what adverbs and adjectives modify" and "predicate nominatives."
> But because these aren't *totally* foreign concepts to him, they're
> easier to grasp.
>
> It's kind of like understanding the *CONCEPTS* of math and THEN adding
> the symbols. Understand how to use everyday language (correctly!) and
> THEN learn the *why*.
>
> In a forum like *this*---where the thought process is more important
> than the delivery---it's easier for me to let things go. This won't be
> published (well, maybe electronically on Sandra's site <g>), and often
> I'm more interested in getting supper made between posts. <G> But I
> think published written works *should* be edited. And I think news
> anchors *should* make spoken language a priority. And I think newspaper
> owners should make their editors earn their paychecks. <G> But that's
> just me. (*I*! <G>)
>
> But as for "getting proper grammar" from my children: I choose to be
> the example at all times. (In my opinion, Southerners *sound* stupid
> enough with our accents; there's no need to add fuel to THAT fire! <g>)
> If they hear it correctly from the get-go, it sounds natural and
> "right." I want the *correct* way to sound "normal" to their ears.
>
> So...be the example you want to see. <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>

[email protected]

~I get annoyed when people don't know the difference between
peach and pink or can't see the slight variances in mixed colors.

I must admit that this is ME! I know my 'basic' colors which were taught to me
in school, you know - what comes in the box of 64 Crayola Crayons??? Other
than that I am illiterate. Maybe I can work on that and quit getting so upset
over people's misspellings??? Yes, I'm actually the one that calls the news
stations when they have typos, and when my older kids were in public school I
was the one that circled the teacher's misspelled words in red pen and sent it
back to her! I have my quirks!

--
~~Belinda~~
If you want to see God laugh, make a plan.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>

Just a handful of very, VERY common mistakes ('though some are becoming
"vernacular"), but I don't want my children to think they are correct.~~

I think people talk different than they write and since language is
evolving, what is "correct" today will NOT be tomorrow. "Mistakes" of
50 years ago are not considered incorrect now.

-=-=-=-=-

Not necessarily.

True---language *does* evolve. But that doesn't make it necessary to
purposefully botch it---simply because you're lazy. Or to accept that,
if we keep ON botching it, that we'll change it.

When you *know* better, you *do* better. So if you learn (and know)
that "loan" is a noun, not a verb, why *wouldn't* you use it correctly?
I mean---if you KNOW it, why would you purposefully use it incorrectly?
It's been used incorrectly for so long now, that it's considered a
verb. But it's not. <G>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-

They're great tools if one is interested in them, but grammar and math
are only useful up to the point that the individual needs/wants those
skills (like everything else). We learn as we go.

-=-=-=-

Not if we refuse to. <G>

-=-=-=-=-=-

I certainly didn't benefit from having grammar thrust upon me by
adults in my life. I
really don't care about some of those grammar rules now...though once
in a while I'm prompted to research one.

-=-=-=-

Why? Because you *do* care---or because you don't? <g>

-=-=-=-=-

Now color theory? I think everyone should learn THAT!;)
Understanding the relationships of colors, how to blend colors you
want and create the dynamics you want with color is a most useful
skill. I get annoyed when people don't know the difference between
peach and pink or can't see the slight variances in mixed colors.

-=-=-=-=-

But what if the common "mistake" was that magenta is a member of the
"green" family? Would that get your goat? <G> Would you not point out
that it's more closely a member of the *red* family?

If I insisted that it WAS a green color and used it as a green color
and that, if we all *said* it was green, it *would* eventually BE
green, does that make it any more green?

-=-=-=-=-=-

We all have our areas of knowledge that we seem to learn more easily
due to an internal drive. For many, grammar/spelling just isn't a
driving force. There are plenty of tools to utilize should a person
need help with those. I personally would like to see more parents
talking about color theory. I mean, how many color theory challenged
people can this world handle? ;)

-=-=-=-=-=-

How many parenting-challenged people can the world handle? <G>
Apparently LOTS!

But I don't think that those of us who *do* love to parent well should
sit by and not be a shining example to those who insist on botching
parenting. I want to BE the example of a mindful parent---and I want to
point out bad examples to my boys when we see a crappy one.

We all have our strengths; and although we can't make others be better
at what we love, we can be the person they go to for help. We can BE
the example.

Too many teachers and parents make too many things out to be painful
and hated. They're not. I would come to you if I wanted color help. <G>
I come to these lists for help to be a better parent. Making something
the "enemy" is not the way to learn it. <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Verna <lalow@...>

If I worried too much about spelling and grammer I wouldnt write at
all. These are obviously not my area of strengh. My dh on the other
hand is obsessed with it and teases me all the time. picking out typos
in everything I write. he is one of "those people" who see typos
everywhere and remembers how to spell anything after one viewing. I on
the other hand still have to think very hard about the which too, to,
or two to use.

-=-=-=

The *teasing* part is the problem.

If he knows it's something you struggle with---and if he knows it's
something you would like help in, why would he tease you? Why wouldn't
he simply offer his expertise?

What if he kindly gave you mnemonic devices to help you? Offered to
edit if you asked?

What if he just stopped teasing and became your partner instead? Became
your ally?

Attitude is everything. <g> Well, almost. <G>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Sandra Dodd

-=-But I've learned over the past
few years that focusing on other people's errors only makes me
dissatisfied,
and doesn't improve the world at all. -=-

A couple of times in my life I have made a statement to the effect
that I would be a much happier person if I couldn't spell. It's
because of that inability NOT to see errors. It's very useful
sometimes and irritating other times.

The first edition of Moving a Puddle had errors, and some of them OLD
errors that hadn't been noticed or pointed out even though they had
been published and were on a webpage.

I'm sloppy and confuseable with "that" and "which" sometimes.

-=-Can anyone tell me how they go about getting proper grammar from
their children while unschooling without having to do any book
teaching?-=-

I didn't do "book teaching" when they were paying me to do so. Six
years I taught English, and never used the textbooks the state
provided. I would tape the boxes severely shut so that at inventory
time they were still all there. We worked with real errors or
amusing made-up errors. That's what I've done with my kids, too. I
don't do it every time they write, but I helped Kirby with a cover
letter. Holly and I worked together on an insert to go with a
wedding gift she made. She trusted me to punctuate because I was at
the keyboard, but I pointed out one or two things I was doing and
why. Marty has a typo or something (I don't remember) on MySpace and
I didn't pint it out. It's MySpace. And Marty spells better right
now than his dad did at that age, and his dad had gone to 13 years
of public school and was a college sophomore at that point. In
college, Keith took theatre and math, neither of which is heavy on
spelling requirement.

When they ask or when something comes up we talk about it BRIEFLY.
Lately with Holly (16) I've pointed out a few odd verb forms she's
guessed wrong (and if a native speaker has to guess, that sometimes
means the form is going out of style). Holly cares about when to
hyphenate words in a phrase. She's sixteen and she's starting to
write more. If you're building an adjective out of a phrase you can
hyphenate it. Holly knows the difference between everyday (an
adjective) and every day (an adverbial phrase) but she doesn't know
that latter term, I don't think. She knows if you're telling what
kind of thing (an everyday dress or an everyday occurrence) it's one
word, and if you're telling when you do it, you might do so every day).

The easiest "bookish" thing for kids is "Schoolhouse Rock," and their
songs about parts of speech. They're on YouTube, and on CD. There's
a computer game that has all the songs and games to go with them.
Instead of telling them "this is good for you," you could (as I did)
tell them about school reform leading to the creation of the original
Sesame Street (cooler than it is now, but no longer hip nor always
PC), of ABC's Schoolhouse Rock videos, which went in like commercials
between cartoons when they were new, and soon of The Electric
Company. Now there are many kids' shows to help them learn to spell
and count and read, but then there were those (in the U.S.--other
countries might not have needed such things as badly, or handled them
differently).

Those moms who are too young to have been around when those things
were new might do well to read a bit about them. That's what the
internet is for! <bwg> (And for parents who became grammar-
resistant because of school, maybe review those Schoolhouse Rock
songs. They're really very painless and decent and happy.

http://sandradodd.com/writing has links to some online things, but
for anyone who wants a fun review of grammar, there's a book called
The Transitive Vampire that you and your kids might like, but if you
try to use it as a textbook and "make" them "use" it, I hope someone
comes and bites you in the dark. (No, not the good way...)

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

My husband doesn't tease. However, he does think it is his obligation
to correct all my mistakes, grammar or otherwise. Then, when I do ask
for his help he is unavailable or not interested. It's a little weird
actually. <G>

He's one of those people who is absolutely brimming with what I would
call random knowledge and he just can't stand to listen to people get
their facts mixed up! His pet peeve I guess.



--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
> The *teasing* part is the problem.
>
> If he knows it's something you struggle with---and if he knows it's
> something you would like help in, why would he tease you? Why wouldn't
> he simply offer his expertise?
>
> What if he kindly gave you mnemonic devices to help you? Offered to
> edit if you asked?
>
> What if he just stopped teasing and became your partner instead? Became
> your ally?
>
> Attitude is everything. <g> Well, almost. <G>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>

http://sandradodd.com/writing has links to some online things, but
for anyone who wants a fun review of grammar, there's a book called
The Transitive Vampire that you and your kids might like, but if you
try to use it as a textbook and "make" them "use" it, I hope someone
comes and bites you in the dark. (No, not the good way...)


-==-

Also good: Woe is I and Eats Shoots, and Leaves

And then there's Grammar Girl: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/

Good places for help.

~Kelly

g-liberatedlearning

Proper grammar usage and spelling is important to Zach (17). Zoe's
(10) budding writing enthusiasm has less patience for worrying about
proper grammar and spelling. Last night, Zoe posted a "message of
the day" for her WoW guild, of which Zach is a member. As I was
ascending the stairs to his room to play WoW online with Zoe but on
Zach's computer per his request that I hang out in his room, Zach
shouted down the stairs to Zoe, "Zoe, important is spelled i-m-p-o-r-
t-a-n-t!" I hushed Zach and told him it doesn't matter and at the
same time Zoe shouted the same thing to him. Then Zach explained to
me that she'd spelled it i-m-p-o-t-e-n-t. Ah ha! I understood his 17
yo urgency to let his sister know her error. As I turned around to
go explain, more gently, why she might want to fix the spelling, Zach
called out to me, "Never mind, she fixed it!"

Personal happiness lies in knowing that life is not a checklist of
acquisition or achievement. -- J.K. Rowling



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:: anne | arun ::

this thread reminds me of playing pictionary when i was at uni. Do
you know the game? The one where you draw something as fast as
possible and people on your team guess what you are drawing to win.

Several of the players in that particular game were illustrators and
cartoonists. I remember that game because it was the guy who had no
interest or aptitude in drawing that won! The rest of us were trying
to get our "masterpieces" just right... he did what he needed to do
to get the message across most efficiently.

It struck me that the game was not so much about drawing but about
communication... obviously other contexts would have form or drawing
being more important.

these days i do a lot of writing. Similarly to the drawing example,
while grammar & spelling are important in some contexts on the whole
the key thing for me remains communication and how effectively that
can happen.

so for those who are getting stressed about where the apostrophe
should be or whether to use a semi colon or hyphen... and even if
your spelling is 100% correct, it is worth knowing that the hmaun
mnid rcgnoieze wrdos for the ltetres in tehm, and not the oderr tehy
are in, jsut as lnog as the fsrit and lsat ltetres are the smae.

So you can get away with an awful lot and still communicate extremely
effectively :D

arun

_____________________________________________

http://www.theparentingpit.com








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>

My husband doesn't tease. However, he does think it is his obligation
to correct all my mistakes, grammar or otherwise. Then, when I do ask
for his help he is unavailable or not interested. It's a little weird
actually. <G>

-=-=-=-

Tell him to put up or shut up. <G>

It's not helpful.

A friend of mine had written---repeatedly---"diagnoses" as singular and
"diagnosis" as plural. The first time, I figured it was a typo. After
the tenth time or so (in two separate posts), I wrote to her off-list
to let her know. It was possible that she didn't know or that she might
not care---or that it really *was* a typo. I *know* she's not stupid.
<G> And I figured she'd want to get it right.

I wasn't trying to be a know-it-all---and I wasn't trying to make her
feel less than. I was trying to help.

She wrote back that she *did* know which was right; but for some
reason, she was blanking out about it as she typed.

No big deal. She was appreciative that I'd pointed it out. She didn't
*want* to get it wrong...again. <g> I don't correct her mistakes as a
rule. <G> But I thought she'd appreciate *that* one.

It really has a lot to do with how you present it---and whether the
recipient *wants* your help.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

swissarmy_wife

Actually, I think I ended up telling him where to put it!

He's been better, especially after I was so clear. <BWG>




--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Tell him to put up or shut up. <G>

Verna

I dont mind a little teasing. When it comes down to it he realizes I
am smarter than him even if I cant spell. :)
Seriously though, I think we have a healthy understanding around here
of differences in abilities and interests. He is much more interested
in details and will spend hours worrying about them. For example, he
makes power point games for the kids he works with (he is a special
ed. teacher) and spends much more time than I ever could on getting
just the right pictures etc... Sometimes his interest in details
henders actually accomplishing alot.
He remembers things like bands who sing certain songs and I do find it
a little condecending when he tries to quiz me on who is playing a
song or something. I just shrug and say, "Joe Walsh" and he gives up.
I just know if I like the song or not.

Sandra Dodd

-=-We can't make them like grammar. We *can* make them hate grammar. -=-

Ditto math. Music (in the form of piano lessons and such).
Drawing. Cooking. Cleaning house.


-=-By understanding there are good reasons behind good grammar. (Makes
reading easier to understand, for one.) By trusting they will read
tons of good and poor grammar and be able to judge for themselves
which is easier to read. By trusting that they will use their good
judgement on what level of grammar they feel is appropriate to a
particular situation.-=-



There.

Joyce has with words represented spoken English. She wrote the way a
person would speak. It's clear and powerful and technically wrong
in some places, but for the purpose of this "discussion" (as we so
often call it), it's perfect.

And Joyce spells "judgement" as I often do, before I pull the "e"
out. The correct spelling in American English in this season of the
century is judgment.



Here: I went and got someone else's explanation:



"Traditionally, the word has been spelled judgment in all forms of
the English language. However, the spelling judgement (with e added)
largely replaced judgment in the United Kingdom in a non-legal
context. In the context of the law, however, judgment is preferred.
This spelling change contrasts with other similar spelling changes
made in American English, which were rejected in the UK. In the US at
least, judgment is still preferred and judgement is considered
incorrect by many American style guides. As with many such spelling
differences, both forms are equally acceptable in Canadian English
and Australian English. In New Zealand English the form judgment is
the preferred spelling in dictionaries, newspapers and legislation,
although the variant judgement can also be found in all three
categories. In South African English, judgement is the more common
form."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070221022424AANtSWu


Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-"He was hung."-=-

Kelly, Kelly...
I can understand you saying your boys will never hear that from you.
Why would they?

But it's possible Holly will hear it from me.

Some guys are well hung. No way around that.

Lethal injection and such have put an end to people being hanged in
most places, but still some are hung. <bwg>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Now color theory? I think everyone should learn THAT!;)
Understanding the relationships of colors, how to blend colors you
want and create the dynamics you want with color is a most useful
skill. I get annoyed when people don't know the difference between
peach and pink or can't see the slight variances in mixed colors.-=-



This came up in the discussion of what color bark is.

I think part of our collective problem was caused by the Binney &
Smith company and their color names. They long ago removed the color
"flesh" because that made no sense and now you can buy a pack of skin
tones. I know "cornflower" as a color, but we used to grow corn and
it didn't have any flowers, just that tuft of cornsilk sticking up
top. And what the heck is with sienna and burnt sienna!? Having
done some damage to crayons, I know that burnt cornflower has some
streaks of black in it, but I figured that was carbon from the match
burning something in the crayon...

When I was in college I hung out with... (I hanged out with? <g>)
art students and they all had been required to buy a deck of colored
cards for some horrible amount of money like $36 (probably like $100
in todays gas prices) and learn to put them in order and to find
complements and opposites or I don't know--prime colors and radical
colors and degrees of color. It looked to me like paint samples,
only REALLY, really expensive, and bigger.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cindy Andras

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
>
> Just a handful of very, VERY common mistakes ('though some are becoming
> "vernacular"), but I don't want my children to think they are correct.~~
>
> I think people talk different than they write and since language is
> evolving, what is "correct" today will NOT be tomorrow. "Mistakes" of
> 50 years ago are not considered incorrect now.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> True---language *does* evolve. But that doesn't make it necessary to
> purposefully botch it---simply because you're lazy. Or to accept that,
> if we keep ON botching it, that we'll change it.
>
> When you *know* better, you *do* better. So if you learn (and know)
> that "loan" is a noun, not a verb, why *wouldn't* you use it correctly?
> I mean---if you KNOW it, why would you purposefully use it incorrectly?
> It's been used incorrectly for so long now, that it's considered a
> verb. But it's not. <G>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-==-
>
> They're great tools if one is interested in them, but grammar and math
> are only useful up to the point that the individual needs/wants those
> skills (like everything else). We learn as we go.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Not if we refuse to. <G>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I certainly didn't benefit from having grammar thrust upon me by
> adults in my life. I
> really don't care about some of those grammar rules now...though once
> in a while I'm prompted to research one.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Why? Because you *do* care---or because you don't? <g>
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Now color theory? I think everyone should learn THAT!;)
> Understanding the relationships of colors, how to blend colors you
> want and create the dynamics you want with color is a most useful
> skill. I get annoyed when people don't know the difference between
> peach and pink or can't see the slight variances in mixed colors.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> But what if the common "mistake" was that magenta is a member of the
> "green" family? Would that get your goat? <G> Would you not point out
> that it's more closely a member of the *red* family?
>
> If I insisted that it WAS a green color and used it as a green color
> and that, if we all *said* it was green, it *would* eventually BE
> green, does that make it any more green?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> We all have our areas of knowledge that we seem to learn more easily
> due to an internal drive. For many, grammar/spelling just isn't a
> driving force. There are plenty of tools to utilize should a person
> need help with those. I personally would like to see more parents
> talking about color theory. I mean, how many color theory challenged
> people can this world handle? ;)
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> How many parenting-challenged people can the world handle? <G>
> Apparently LOTS!
>
> But I don't think that those of us who *do* love to parent well should
> sit by and not be a shining example to those who insist on botching
> parenting. I want to BE the example of a mindful parent---and I want to
> point out bad examples to my boys when we see a crappy one.
>
> We all have our strengths; and although we can't make others be better
> at what we love, we can be the person they go to for help. We can BE
> the example.
>
> Too many teachers and parents make too many things out to be painful
> and hated. They're not. I would come to you if I wanted color help. <G>
> I come to these lists for help to be a better parent. Making something
> the "enemy" is not the way to learn it. <g>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>


Not trying to be argumentative, but I was following this thread and it
prompted me to look up the word "loan". I found this:


Main Entry:
2loan
Function:
transitive verb
Date:
13th century

: lend
— loan·able Listen to the pronunciation of loanable \ˈlō-nə-bəl\ adjective
usage The verb loan is one of the words English settlers brought to
America and continued to use after it had died out in Britain. Its use
was soon noticed by British visitors and somewhat later by the New
England literati, who considered it a bit provincial. It was flatly
declared wrong in 1870 by a popular commentator, who based his
objection on etymology. A later scholar showed that the commentator
was ignorant of Old English and thus unsound in his objection, but by
then it was too late, as the condemnation had been picked up by many
other commentators. Although a surprising number of critics still
voice objections, loan is entirely standard as a verb. You should note
that it is used only literally; lend is the verb used for figurative
expressions, such as "lending a hand" or "lending enchantment."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary


While I did not mean for this to contradict anything that Ren or Kelly
said in the previous thread, I found it interesting.

Cindy in SoCal

Sandra Dodd

-=-Several of the players in that particular game were illustrators and
cartoonists. I remember that game because it was the guy who had no
interest or aptitude in drawing that won! The rest of us were trying
to get our "masterpieces" just right... he did what he needed to do
to get the message across most efficiently.-=-



We have a game where you "draw" by putting cards with different
shaped lines into a formation to get someone to guess a word. Our
friend Bo (who did the trees for my unschooling page) is GREAT at
guessing. I'm really self-conscious playing that game because my
figures aren't as artsy as the people we play with, but Bo thinks so
quickly and broadly in terms of interpreting art that he can get what
I'm doing (or what anyone's doing) really quickly.

Bo's "grammar" has to do with line drawings. He's not a painter, and
he doesn't care so much about color.

Divorce, abandonment, a mean stepfather and school kicked Bo's poor
ass. He's a mess. But he can do this:

http://tinyurl.com/6mhgj6

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Actually, I think I ended up telling him where to put it!
He's been better, especially after I was so clear. <BWG>-=-



When Keith was my boyfriend, long before we ever thought we would get
married, long before we knew we'd have children, we made a deal. I
would spell for him without any explanation if he would give me math
answers without any explanation. No teasing, no teaching, just the
answer.



It worked SO well and we were so used to it that when we had kids it
was natural for us to just give them an answer if that's all they
wanted.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I learnt a lot about English grammar when I studied French and
German at
A-Level (I'm in the UK).-=-

Americans used "learned." When I was a kid I had relatives who
would say they had et already and OH MY GOSH the horror, in school,
if anyone say "et" but in the UK people will say they've et and
nobody cringes. It's cool. They've spelt words too, but we only
have that grain nobody much uses anymore for "spelt."

But Americans say some things that Brits don't. He use "gotten" and
"forgotten" and they don't. They say (properly for them) "I have
forgot all that." Americans would say "I forgot all that" or "I have
forgotten all that."

My granny said "I reckon" but that's archaic here. In England they
reckon things all the time, but they hardly guess. Chaucer's
characters said "I guess" ("y gesse") and Americans still say "I guess."

It's not so good to hunker down and inflexibly say "I KNOW I'M
RIGHT!" about English. It's fine, but English will wash on over you
right where you squat with your eyes closed.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-He remembers things like bands who sing certain songs and I do
find it
a little condecending when he tries to quiz me on who is playing a
song or something. -=-



I LOVE that game, though, to see who can name something the quickest,
and I love music trivia. So I don't mind when people say "Who's
this?" I like it, whether they know and are quizzing me or whether
they don't know and are glad if I do know. And the most fun thing is
when someone's on a recording of a group they weren't usually with,
or when a group is doing something written by someone who usually
recorded his own stuff. Like "That's George Harrison!" when it's not
a Beatles song, or "Paul McCartney wrote that!" when it's someone else.

Musically I'm courageous. Grammatically I'm confident.
Mathematically, I'm a sad, fearful thing.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]