Verna

My husband and I have 4 kids, 6,5,4,and 3. My 6 year old went to
preschool for half a year back when he was 3 because several of his
friends went and he thought it would be fun. He did like it well
enough, but I got a little annoyed when he came home saying he had
gotten in trouble for coloring a bear blue when it clearing showed
it should be brown. Otherwise they havnt been to school.
For the most part we have been unschooling but periodically I get
caught up in our homeschool groups talk and although I have resisted
ever buying a curriculum I have tried to teach the kids a few
things... But then I notice my 5 year old (B) is reading (when i
havnt taught him) or my 6 year old (J) can count money when he
doesnt know the names of the coins and I realize I need to back off
and I do for a while till I once again loose focus. People say
things to me, like, how is J (6) going to feel when he is the only
kid in Sunday school that cant read, but they turn around and tell
me how incitefull he is and how he makes such interesting comments.
So I guess my question is how do I stay focused on Unschooling and
quit getting off track?
My next question has to do with my 5 year old, B. B feels very
strongly and has alot of trouble with transitions, change, newness.
He needs alot of time to himself to work up to things. For example,
B didnt think he could swim and he wanted no help. I left him alone
with it and all summer when we would go to the pool and rather than
play with the other kids he would go off by himself and repeatedly
jump in the shallow end and basically just worked himself into
swimming. Last week he jumped off the diving board for the first
time. Proud and anything. He didnt want my help but would
sometimes ask me to watch him or occasionally get in with him. He
is very nervous about new things and very fearful of failure or
loosing.
Often when he has trouble with transitions for example I make things
worse by getting impatient. How do I teach him to control his
emotions? Any good book suggestions?
Thanks

k

>
> Often when he has trouble with transitions for example I make things
> worse by getting impatient. How do I teach him to control his
> emotions?


That question has a couple of problems. First, unschoolers don't address
teaching anything but instead we talk about children learning. Second,
emotions are not things you control, however the parent can model how to
deal with emotions in a variety of ways, and how to express a wider range of
feelings (that's the goal anyway) so that we're not limited to just
happiness and sadness, hurt, or anger. There's way more choice available to
us than only noticing our strongest emotions (usually when they get out of
hand).

Any good book suggestions?


I keep recommending Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves
because it has helped me so much. It immediately helped me with ideas about
dealing with strong emotion.

Another great idea that has helped me in parenting Karl probably more than
any other thing I've read deals with making choices (decision-making being
the least developed skill for me from childhood to adulthood). It's really
just four sentences in the middle of an article by Sandra Dodd on her
website and I personally think it deserves a page all to itself:

> *Choices:* Unless you considered two or three courses of actions, you
> didn't really make a choice at all. Consciously think of two choices before
> you act�then make the better choice. Your range of choices will get better
> as you do this. While you're helping your child learn to choose, you can
> also learn to choose.
>
I like a lot of what you've written about your family, Verna. One more
thing... but important, I think ... others besides me have better advice
about what to say about not being able to read in Sunday School because we
don't go to church. One of the reasons I avoid church is for this very
reason... I don't like the assumptions and not just about my child's
reading. But others *do* go and might have some words to wise. Actually
some people who also don't go to church might have something for you there
too.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Often when he has trouble with transitions for example I make things
worse by getting impatient. How do I teach him to control his
emotions? Any good book suggestions?
 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 
You  cannot "teach" him to control emotions. They should be able to feel and express emotions.
You can help him find ways to express them in a way more "positive " way.
Or ways that he can calm himself faster if he is frustrated . But he will only be able to do it when he is ready and capable to
do so. He is only 5. He has lots of years to ahead of him and everyday kids change a lot.
They grow and get experienced, they are better able to express their emotions in words or calm faster when frustrated.
Modeling how you are able to calm yourself down can help a lot.
But keep in mind that if you , the adult, can't control yourself and you get impatient at this wonderful child you love, how do you
expect him to control his emotions when he has only been in this world for 5 years and there is so much he still not ready to handle and conquer?
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

"You  cannot "teach" him to control emotions. They should be able to
feel and express emotions.
> You can help him find ways to express them in a
way more "positive " way.
> Or ways that he can calm himself faster if he is frustrated . But
he will only be able to do it when he is ready and capable to
> do so. He is only 5. He has lots of years to ahead of him
and everyday kids change a lot.
> They grow and get experienced, they are better able to express
their emotions in words or calm faster when frustrated.
> Modeling how you are able to calm yourself down can help a lot.
> But keep in mind that if you , the adult, can't control yourself
and you get impatient at this wonderful child you love, how do you
> expect him to control his emotions when he has only been in this
world for 5 years and there is so much he still not ready to handle
and conquer?"

Thank you, that really helped me see more clearly that I am reacting
and expecting myself to be able to teach him something when I really
just need to be there for him and reassure him that I understand and
help him learn to deal with the emotions he is feeling. This is yet
another area where I have so much trouble filtering out the messages
from others that bombard me. People who persist in thinking there
is something wrong with my son when he is a wonderfully unique,
passionate, and persistent boy. It also makes me sigh in relief
cause honestly i cant figure out how to teach him those things but I
know I can be there for him and support him.
>  
>

Sandra Dodd

Katherine, thank you for quoting that because I didn't like it. <g>

There's an error. Here's what it says now:

Unless you considered two or three courses of action, you didn't
really make a choice at all. Consciously think of two choices before
you act--then make the better choice. Your range of choices will get
better as you do this. While you're helping your child learn to
choose, you can also learn to choose.



http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy



It's on that page, A Loud Peaceful Home (which I more often refer to
as "Big Noisy Peace").



Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-People say
things to me, like, how is J (6) going to feel when he is the only
kid in Sunday school that cant read, but they turn around and tell
me how incitefull he is and how he makes such interesting comments. -=-



If I were in your position, I would ask them NOT to ask him to read.
If they insisted, I wouldn't send him to Sunday school.

You can read Bible stories to him yourself without him feeling
pressured or "behind." If he wants to go when he can read, let him.
I loved Sunday School, and I loved reading aloud there, and I loved
racing to find Bible verses and I usually won, so bully for me; I
grew up to be a big agnostic former Baptist. Meanwhile, other kids
were probably bored and stressed and frustrated because Sunday school
was so heavy on the SCHOOL.

-=-So I guess my question is how do I stay focused on Unschooling and
quit getting off track?-=-

#1, Decide it's what you want to do. Then when you make choices and
decisions, make the more unschooling choice.

#2, stay on this list or another one you like where unschoolers can
help you remember how to get to the place you want to be.



These might help:

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

-=-Often when he has trouble with transitions for example I make
things worse by getting impatient. How do I teach him to control his
emotions?-=-

Hey, you're the one getting impatient. <bwg>

How can you learn to control that emotion? Can the two of you work
on it together?



Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

:) Well I have been using it for a while now and I still have a lot to
learn about it. It's a simple idea yet not easy for me. You didn't like
that eeny-teeny spello, which I never noticed next to the big wonderful
idea. Thanks, lady.

~Katherine



On 8/17/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Katherine, thank you for quoting that because I didn't like it. <g>
>
> There's an error. Here's what it says now:
>
> Unless you considered two or three courses of action, you didn't
> really make a choice at all. Consciously think of two choices before
> you act--then make the better choice. Your range of choices will get
> better as you do this. While you're helping your child learn to
> choose, you can also learn to choose.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy
>
> It's on that page, A Loud Peaceful Home (which I more often refer to
> as "Big Noisy Peace").
>
> Sandra
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Well I have been using it for a while now and I still have a lot to
learn about it. It's a simple idea yet not easy for me. You didn't like
that eeny-teeny spello, which I never noticed next to the big wonderful
idea. Thanks, lady.-=-



Thank you for the kind words! I can tell you the story of where that
tool came from, the "make the better choice." I've told it before,
but there are always some new people.

About 20 years ago (a little more), at Grand Outlandish, a big SCA
campout here on Memorial Day weekend, a friend of ours was going to
be knighted, so he was "on vigil"--our version of a medieval knight's
vigil in a church, but ours is usually (and was that night) the
knighthood candidate sitting formally in a tent (or a room, but we
were camping) as people come by singly or in small groups to advise
him or to speak with him as they wish. Some bring gifts. I brought
a candle that night. He was in a tent I had made myself, that
night, and his name was Leif.

He said he was worried that his camping equipment wasn't good enough,
and that as a knight he should set a better example. At that point,
Keith and I had been improving our own camp for eight years or so,
and he used that as an example, and another one of someone who had
been doing it for a while. He asked how he could have a camp like
that, and he seemed to feel it needed to be immediately, or he might
as well not start.

That feeling of being overwhelmed about how to start caused me to
advise him thusly:

As you replace items, make the more medieval choice and incrementally
your camp will get better. If you're getting a tent and your choices
are nylon or canvas, choose canvas. If your choice is orange or
brown, choose brown. Make the better choice.

I went back to my own camp all energized and excited, even though it
was after midnight, and told Gunwaldt and Artan (Keith my husband and
Jeff my friend and camping buddy) about it, and we all were happy
with the breakthrough in the way we could advise people on all KINDS
of things with that. Kirby was a baby then. It helped me be a
better mom.

You don't have to barrel toward your goal without looking around.
You can get there naturally if when there's an option you make the
one that takes you nearer to the place or the way you want to be.
And as time went by and I tried that advice out in different contexts
and with different people, I added the idea that before you can make
a choice, you have to have at least two options. Some people talk
the talk like they're making choices, but they're not stopping to
think of options, really.

In the first Terminator movie (NOT a favorite of mine), the little
pull-down menu of options he has to consider reminds me of this
idea. And you can learn and add more good options to your menu, and
eliminate those you don't need or use anymore because you have better
ones.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cloggsy_sk

Hi

I'm new to the forum - will post a proper introduction in a minute,
but your last paragraph really stuck out to me because my DD1 is the
same and I am also very impatient with her. However, I feel that it
is less a case of 'teaching her to control her emotions' and more a
case of 'teaching myself not to get impatient with her emotions' -
her emotions are real and valid and important to her, and I have a
tendency when I'm feeling impatient to wave them away and dismiss
them with a 'Oh don't be silly' - not exactly respectful! I ask
myself how I would like it if I expressed my fears to the person I
trusted most in the world and they dismissed my feelings or tried to
get me to stop feeling them? I believe that my DD1 will grow up, and
will learn how to cope with her feelings in time, but I'm trying to
stop myself interfering with the process and inadvertantly teaching
her simply to suppress her feelings - something I really don't want
to do!

Best wishes

Clare

--- In [email protected], "Verna" <lalow@...> wrote:
>
> My husband and I have 4 kids, 6,5,4,and 3. My 6 year old went to
> preschool for half a year back when he was 3 because several of his
> friends went and he thought it would be fun. He did like it well
> enough, but I got a little annoyed when he came home saying he had
> gotten in trouble for coloring a bear blue when it clearing showed
> it should be brown. Otherwise they havnt been to school.
> For the most part we have been unschooling but periodically I get
> caught up in our homeschool groups talk and although I have
resisted
> ever buying a curriculum I have tried to teach the kids a few
> things... But then I notice my 5 year old (B) is reading (when i
> havnt taught him) or my 6 year old (J) can count money when he
> doesnt know the names of the coins and I realize I need to back off
> and I do for a while till I once again loose focus. People say
> things to me, like, how is J (6) going to feel when he is the only
> kid in Sunday school that cant read, but they turn around and tell
> me how incitefull he is and how he makes such interesting
comments.
> So I guess my question is how do I stay focused on Unschooling and
> quit getting off track?
> My next question has to do with my 5 year old, B. B feels very
> strongly and has alot of trouble with transitions, change,
newness.
> He needs alot of time to himself to work up to things. For
example,
> B didnt think he could swim and he wanted no help. I left him
alone
> with it and all summer when we would go to the pool and rather than
> play with the other kids he would go off by himself and repeatedly
> jump in the shallow end and basically just worked himself into
> swimming. Last week he jumped off the diving board for the first
> time. Proud and anything. He didnt want my help but would
> sometimes ask me to watch him or occasionally get in with him. He
> is very nervous about new things and very fearful of failure or
> loosing.
> Often when he has trouble with transitions for example I make
things
> worse by getting impatient. How do I teach him to control his
> emotions? Any good book suggestions?
> Thanks
>

Verna

about what to say about not being able to read in Sunday School
because we
don't go to church. One of the reasons I avoid church is for this very
reason... I don't like the assumptions and not just about my child's
reading. But others *do* go and might have some words to wise.
Actually
some people who also don't go to church might have something for you
there
too.
>
~Katherine

Katherine,
Thanks for your comments about B and emotions. That helped along with
the other post to show me I need to change totally how I respond to
him.

Church is wierd thing for us. I use it simply as an example of when
we do community things that are not simply for homeschoolers. We have
very few unschoolers around here. Our kids love to go to church.
They honestly and actually wake us up on Sunday mornings, dressed and
ready to go. My husband typically stays home and takes whoever doesnt
go out to breakfast (a favorite thing in our house) and mostly they
all choose to go to church instead. Go figure. They like getting
dressed up too. This summer we have been out of town alot and they
kept asking when we could go back to church? So I take them.

Verna

>
> Hey, you're the one getting impatient. <bwg>
>
> How can you learn to control that emotion? Can the two of you work
> on it together?
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
Very good point, guess I should worry more about working on dealing
with my own emotions and supporting him when he obviously is feeling
so strongly.

Thanks for the lists. Ill take a look at those.

V

carnationsgalore

> B feels very strongly and has alot of trouble with transitions,
> change, newness. He needs alot of time to himself to work up to
> things.

Hi Verna. My son Jeffrey is now 12 years old and has always taken a
longer time to transition between things than his sisters needed.
Perhaps your son has some similar traits.

Jeffrey needs to feel a sense of completion when leaving an
activity. He would get very upset if he was hurried to drop one
thing to go do something else. Now that I look back on those earlier
years, I see the true trouble was in my thinking, not in his.
Jeffrey is still the same way about transitions, but because we all
know how Jeffrey feels, our family has learned how to accommodate his
needs. An example: Jeffrey loves playing video games. If he's
playing a game and we're wanting to leave the house, I let him know
in advance that we'll be leaving soon. I ask him to let me know when
he's reached a stopping point so the rest of us can be ready to go.
I don't tell him to find a stopping point though. He would feel
pressured and sink into a negative mood. If I'm in a true hurry, and
I try my best to never be in a rush, I don't take my frustration out
on the kids because the fault is mine. If I don't manage time well,
I have to deal with it.

Jeffrey is and has always been fearful of new things. However, his
courage is growing as he gets older. I've been told numerous times
that I'm harming him because I don't force him to jump into new
things. I disagree and then change the subject. I really don't care
to argue that point when I've watched my son grow into a more
courageous, trusting person. We talk about everything in detail. He
likes to hear an explanation of what to expect and how things might
deviate from that expectation. And most importantly, he likes to
know exactly who is going to be with him. He prefers me or his dad
when he goes to a new place. We're his safety net. I don't worry
about his adult future. I don't like to hear people say that if he
doesn't do it now, he'll never learn to do it. I don't believe that
at all. I trust that he'll do things when he's ready to do them.
I'm his shield for the negativity we encounter. It's rough sometimes
because I don't care for negative comments but I'd rather them be
directed at me than at my son.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Jeffrey is and has always been fearful of new things. However, his
courage is growing as he gets older. -=-



Each of my kids has a streak of shyness, and they don't match. Each
as certain kinds of new things they don't want to do alone.

Kirby was probably the worst, in some ways. He sat by me longest
when he was little. I sat by him longest when he was older. When he
had just turned 21 and had an offer to move to Texas for a job,
though, he went merrily as to an adventure. Now that he's there,
he's staying home a lot and not exploring, which his dad wishes he
would do more of. He's not learning the city as quickly as Keith
would LOVE to do if it were Keith, but it's Kirby. He'll learn his
surroundings more slowly.

In his apartment, though, he knows LOTS about the way things work,
how the air conditioner can malfunction if they leave it on too long
and what the effect on the wall is and how to get it back to
operational. <g> He knows all the policies about the apartment
complex and how to report things broken and what the odds are to get
them fixed and how to improve that. He's WAY informed in and at
work. He keeps up with his friends (not as well as Holly would, but
still does) by phone and computer. He's had a lot of New Mexico
visitors there. His apartment has become kind of a destination spot.
<g>

He's not an explorer.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

***In his apartment, though, he knows LOTS about the way things work,

how the air conditioner can malfunction if they leave it on too long

and what the effect on the wall is and how to get it back to

operational. <g> He knows all the policies about the apartment

complex and how to report things broken and what the odds are to get

them fixed and how to improve that. He's WAY informed in and at

work. He keeps up with his friends (not as well as Holly would, but

still does) by phone and computer. He's had a lot of New Mexico

visitors there. His apartment has become kind of a destination spot.

<g>



He's not an explorer.****

This is so much like my son Alec (15).  When he's into something and there with something, he knows a lot about it.  So thoroughly he learns, researches and does things.

And, he is not an explorer either.  It is sometimes hard for me to understand, when I love to explore.   New and different things excite me so much!  But, through unschooling I've accepted that it's OK for everyone not to be the same.  And isn't is wonderful to have the differences?!

Unschooling has given us such a gift, a gift for each of us to be ourselves; and it has allowed us to be ourselves the best that we can be.

Kelli~
  http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0

"There are no ordinary moments."  Dan Millman,  Peaceful Warrior






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

this also sounds like my son. he is just 10. i am wondering, those of you with older kids of this temperament, was there an age where they seemed developmentally ready to take more risks with their passions? my son definitely has a perfectionist streak, so if things become hard, or if he feels he is not "good enough" at something fairly quickly, he gets frustrated and moves on or away. he also expresses a lot of disatisfaction over *not* haveing "something" that is just HIS - he seems to have this internal desire to "do something big", to be involved in something inspiring, and yet he resists trying anything new, and says there is nothing fun or interesting left to do in the world... i know 9-10 is a common age for that existential angstiness, but i am just wondering what others have experienced with these intense, risk-averse people - their kids or themselves?

warmly, Lyla


----- Original Message -----
From: Kelli Traaseth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] troublesome transitioning


***In his apartment, though, he knows LOTS about the way things work,

how the air conditioner can malfunction if they leave it on too long

and what the effect on the wall is and how to get it back to

operational. <g> He knows all the policies about the apartment

complex and how to report things broken and what the odds are to get

them fixed and how to improve that.
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-he is just 10. i am wondering, those of you with older kids of
this temperament, was there an age where they seemed developmentally
ready to take more risks with their passions?-=-

Can't say. It's gradual and variable. People change every moment.
And he might get brave about some kinds of things and never about
others. Me? I don't like to call strangers on the phone. Just
don't. I don't like to answer phones at jobs I've had. I'm fine
with talking on the phone with people I know. So should I change
that or just accept it and live with it? I can stand up at a podium
with a mic and talk. I can be interviewed with a TV camera in my
face. I played guitar and sang on TV (not lately, but as a teen).
But I don't want to call a new doctor's office. Sheesh. That's SCARY!!

-=-my son definitely has a perfectionist streak, so if things become
hard, or if he feels he is not "good enough" at something fairly
quickly, he gets frustrated and moves on or away.-=-

Me too. Most perfectionists are also procrastinators, I think.

-=-he also expresses a lot of disatisfaction over *not* haveing
"something" that is just HIS --=-

Could this have to do with siblings who are crowding him or friends
who are copying him? (Just guessing.)

Would a trip to a big book store or hobby shop or computer store help
maybe? Maybe he would discover something new to him that would lead
to other things. Even if it's a short trail and not a lifelong
passion, it would be something new.

-=-he seems to have this internal desire to "do something big", to be
involved in something inspiring, and yet he resists trying anything
new-=-

He doesn't have to be brave and outgoing to become involved in
something inspiring. There's the internet. He can explore in there.

Here are some portals leading to dozens and then hundreds more, or he
could just stay and play on any of these pages. And some of them
lead to youtube, which can occupy someone for about a year.

http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/history
http://sandradodd.com/art

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

he has an older sibling and i think some of the "pressure" comes from seeing her "accomplishments" for sure. friends are not the issue, as he doesn't have many and those he has definitely don't crowd or even share his interests.

we try to go to hobby shops, bookstores, and any other place he shows an interst in, and he has discovered youtube to be sure, along with looking stuff up online, playing WOW, and lots of other stuff. but he is restless and bored and won't read much online and won't read or listen to anything read / shared with him, unless it is presented in just the right way at just the right moment, and grabs him immediately.

we went to powells city of books - a 4 storey block long literal city of books downtown yesterday and he looked for 3 specific books he wanted, then wanted to pay and go. no interest in browsing the rest of the store. no tolerance for me doing so....

i am not worried about changing him, just more concerned about his *own* sense of disatisfaction with his life/level of stimulation. haven't found a successful way of strewing his path yet...


----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] troublesome transitioning


-=-he is just 10. i am wondering, those of you with older kids of
this temperament, was there an age where they seemed developmentally
ready to take more risks with their passions?-=-

Can't say. It's gradual and variable. People change every moment.
And he might get brave about some kinds of things and never about
others. Me? I don't like to call strangers on the phone. Just
don't. I don't like to answer phones at jobs I've had. I'm fine
with talking on the phone with people I know. So should I change
that or just accept it and live with it? I can stand up at a podium
with a mic and talk. I can be interviewed with a TV camera in my
face. I played guitar and sang on TV (not lately, but as a teen).
But I don't want to call a new doctor's office. Sheesh. That's SCARY!!


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> But keep in mind that if you , the adult, can't control yourself and
you get impatient at this wonderful child you love, how do you
> expect him to control his emotions when he has only been in this world
for 5 years and there is so much he still not ready to handle and
conquer?
>
> Alex Polikowsky


I don't know why, but everytime I read stuff you write, I remember funny
little stories that I want to share but generally don't.

That said, I'll share an impatient story from the other day. We were at
the ice skating rink, in the bathroom. They have those hand driers that
are very very strong and loud and dry your hands in like 5 seconds. I
was waiting for one of my kids to be done and was just hanging out in
there. There was another mom in there with her daughter, who was about
6. She was doing that shaming nasty stuff to her daughter, trying to
get her to hurry. So, because I'm bored, stuck in a bathroom, and I
didn't want to hear her, every time she started to lay into her
daughter, I triggered the drier. It completely drowns out all sound in
the room, the little girl can't hear her mother harping at her.

I did it repeatedly until it was time to leave the bathroom. Did it
help? Who knows? I didn't have to hear it though, the very loud ear
piercing drier was more pleasant than hearing a mom shame her child in
public.

When I get frustrated, I take a deep breath and think about how I'd feel
if I heard myself in public. That generally helps me change directions
very quickly!

Sandra Dodd

-=-won't read or listen to anything read / shared with him, unless it
is presented in just the right way at just the right moment, and
grabs him immediately. -=-

Do you email things to him? I email links to my kids even when
they're in the same house, so they can look or not when they're in
the mood.

Do you just turn something on (movie, music) and have it on in case
he wanders by and gets lured in, or not?

What about an out of town trip, overnight, just the two of you, to
one particular place or thing? Not a big vacation, a cheap motel
room or camp or hostel, but time to talk in the car and to do
something memorable?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

"he also expresses a lot of disatisfaction over *not* haveing
"something" that is just HIS - he seems to have this internal desire to
"do something big", to be involved in something inspiring, and yet he
resists trying anything new, and says there is nothing fun or
interesting left to do in the world... i know 9-10 is a common age for
that existential angstiness, but i am just wondering what others have
experienced with these intense, risk-averse people - their kids or
themselves?"

My older daughter is this way, although she's outgrown some of it. One
thing that really helped, was online role playing games. You are
inherently a part of something big, playing a role that you can be quite
successful at. It helped in lots of ways, not just that feeling of
being part of something big.

It has to do with not wanting to fail at anything. A lot of times she
would refuse to try something unless she knew without a doubt she would
succeed. So, I tried to bring things to her that she could succeed at.
She got involved in girl scouts, which was another bigger than her thing
where everyone wins. That helped a lot too, and when she was done with
it, she stopped going. It gave her a lot of little jumping off places
to explore.

She's pretty good at lots of really creative things and has only
recently embraced that part of herself. She is beginning to find things
that she's good at and knows that she is. It took a while, but it
happens eventually. In that inbetween time, I really focused on fun and
finding fun and doing things that were fun. I took every little hint of
interest seriously and helped her explore it as much as she wanted to.

Jenny C

>
> we went to powells city of books - a 4 storey block long literal city
of books downtown yesterday and he looked for 3 specific books he
wanted, then wanted to pay and go. no interest in browsing the rest of
the store. no tolerance for me doing so....
>
> i am not worried about changing him, just more concerned about his
*own* sense of disatisfaction with his life/level of stimulation.
haven't found a successful way of strewing his path yet...
>


Well, because I know Powell's, I'll tell you what I would do in that
situation. Buy the newspaper from the homeless guy for $1, go play with
the scultpure
http://www.portlandground.com/archives/2006/01/swinging_sculpt_1.php
<http://www.portlandground.com/archives/2006/01/swinging_sculpt_1.php> ,
don't park in the garage, park several blocks away and check out the
sites, stop at this sculpture and count the bikes
http://bikeportland.org/photos/photo/94963734/Zoobomb-pile.html
<http://bikeportland.org/photos/photo/94963734/Zoobomb-pile.html> , go
to that gothic clothing store right next to Rocco's pizza there and tell
them your teen daughter is looking for a good piercing shop (just
kidding, don't do that they'll give you some bull story about how it's
child abuse, it just fun to mess with them), go to this building down
the road on Burnside and check out the corner of it, stand directly next
to the flat angled corner glass and look up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Bancorp_Tower
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Bancorp_Tower> , then go over the new
water feature around the corner, there might be skaters there doing
tricks. There are some extremely fascinating things to do and see, just
walking to and from your car in a leisurely way.

Perhaps your son doesn't like the bigness of the bookstore, some kids
don't. I love it! I really like going up to the art gallery. Just
doing those few things listed above, you've made an afternoon out of a
trip to the bookstore that's fun!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

-=-won't read or listen to anything read / shared with him, unless it
is presented in just the right way at just the right moment, and
grabs him immediately. -=-

Do you email things to him? I email links to my kids even when
they're in the same house, so they can look or not when they're in
the mood.



I do that occasionally. and yes, sometimes he looks.



Do you just turn something on (movie, music) and have it on in case
he wanders by and gets lured in, or not?



i should do that more - good reminder! thanks.

What about an out of town trip, overnight, just the two of you, to
one particular place or thing? Not a big vacation, a cheap motel
room or camp or hostel, but time to talk in the car and to do
something memorable?


YES! i really need to do that. but i am having trouble thinking of the "right" place or particuar thing that woudl really be fun for him. he tends to be very negative and get disappointed easily if experiences don't live up to his hopes and expectations. thanks though, i will definitely mull that one over further.

lyla

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-i really need to do that. but i am having trouble thinking of the
"right" place or particuar thing that woudl really be fun for him. he
tends to be very negative and get disappointed easily if experiences
don't live up to his hopes and expectations. thanks though, i will
definitely mull that one over further.-=-

Maybe don't play it up then. Say you just want to go and hang out
with him. Then if you find a cool museum or park or IMAX theater or
concert or whatever it is he might like, there it is. It will be a
surprise instead of an anticipated thing.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jae

>>He prefers me or his dad
when he goes to a new place. We're his safety net. I don't worry
about his adult future. I don't like to hear people say that if he
doesn't do it now, he'll never learn to do it. I don't believe that
at all. I trust that he'll do things when he's ready to do them.
I'm his shield for the negativity we encounter. It's rough sometimes
because I don't care for negative comments but I'd rather them be
directed at me than at my son.

>>Beth M.

We have this going on with my 9 year old son and I am really struggling. Thank you so much for posting this. I am also thinking very much about Sandra's post on choices. I love that SCA story and way of thinking about making gradual changes.

My youngest son has a genetic neurological dysregulation that fits all the criteria for bipolar disorder (but I hate that term and the labeling) and anxiety. I think the anxiety comes from having his brain swing out of his control but he is also a very sensitive person. I have helped him to regulate from the beginning when he couldn't regulate blood sugar or temperature. I could do that for him with kangaroo care or attachment parenting. But he still has lots of trouble with regulation. We tried the medication route and lithium helps him, but not enough. All of the other medications are dreadful and cause more problems than they fix. We use Ross Greene's Collaborative Problem Solving (from his book, The Explosive Child). In trying to decrease his frustration level, we got into unschooling and then radical unschooling. I love the book "Raising our Children, Raising ourselves" by Naomi Aldort and try to follow that philosophy.

He had been having episodes where he would lose control and have a meltdown and need us to restrain him so that he wouldn't hurt himself or others. We went into Seattle Children's hospital for a couple of days to see what they could offer to help. His brother, father or I (mainly me) were with him the whole time and I shared his little hospital bed with him. They had some good tools that they used to help him to reset and we were supposed to get outpatient help with a therapist. The outpatient therapist was more dysfunctional than my son and all the good ones are booked solid.

So now comes my dilemma: There are some psychotherapies that have been shown to be effective and we have been trying to access one of those. I have been thinking in terms of choice of therapist and finding the right therapist but I am wondering if there are other choices besides that. As an analogy, am I thinking of trying to find the right math curriculum, instead of letting him find his own math? It was easy for us to move to unschooling with academics. We have always respected our kids autonomy and tried to do unconditional parenting so it was a natural step to move into radical unschooling, except for dealing with his disorder. There, I am stuck with still trying to use mainstream treatments. (We have tried every kind of alternative medicine and dietary intervention that are available.) Should I keep trying to find a psychologist or therapist who is a good fit or are there other options?

Any ideas suggestions or a way to help me make gradual changes or adjust my thinking? Has anyone else had to deal with bipolar disorder? (Feel free to email offlist if you have a personal story to share.)

Thanks,
Jae G
Redmond WA


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Sandra Dodd

-=- (We have tried every kind of alternative medicine and dietary
intervention that are available.) Should I keep trying to find a
psychologist or therapist who is a good fit or are there other
options?-=-

Most of what I've read about dietary intervention has seemed
nonsense. More deprivation and magical thinking doesn't help when
kids need someone to say yes and okay and "are you comfortable?"

Any ideas suggestions or a way to help me make gradual changes or
adjust my thinking? Has anyone else had to deal with bipolar
disorder? (Feel free to email offlist if you have a personal story to
share.)
-=-

It depends how bad it is, of course, but there's a site on depression
I found just recently and stuck here (on an unfinished page):
http://sandradodd.com/mentalhealth

Sometimes I save things until there's enough a page to launch, but
feel free to visit my construction site today! <g>

Instead of thinking "bi-polar," too, if you think "manic-
depressive" (it's traditional name) it seems much less extreme. I
know there's a full range of... ranges on it no matter what you call
it, but the manic "episodes" or states are often made worse by
people's responses, and the depression can be WAY worse in bad
surroundings than good (as with any and everything in the whole wide
world).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Instead of thinking "bi-polar," too, if you think "manic-
depressive" (its traditional name) it seems much less extreme. -=-



I had an apostrophe in the its that shouldn't have been there and it
bugged me.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I don't know why, but everytime I read stuff you write, I remember funny
little stories that I want to share but generally don't.

That said, I'll share an impatient story from the other day. We were at
the ice skating rink, in the bathroom. They have those hand driers that
are very very strong and loud and dry your hands in like 5 seconds. I
was waiting for one of my kids to be done and was just hanging out in
there. There was another mom in there with her daughter, who was about
6. She was doing that shaming nasty stuff to her daughter, trying to
get her to hurry. So, because I'm bored, stuck in a bathroom, and I
didn't want to hear her, every time she started to lay into her
daughter, I triggered the drier. It completely drowns out all sound in
the room, the little girl can't hear her mother harping at her.

I did it repeatedly until it was time to leave the bathroom. Did it
help? Who knows? I didn't have to hear it though, the very loud ear
piercing drier was more pleasant than hearing a mom shame her child in
public.

When I get frustrated, I take a deep breath and think about how I'd feel
if I heard myself in public. That generally helps me change directions
very quickly!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Hey Glad I inpired you to share the story this time.
I think I may use it next time I am impatient with my kids at a public bathroom<BWG>
snd start rushing them to get done and out ( it does not happen offen but I have my days!)
 
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

Sandra,
Can I quote this story on a local unschooling list? I really like it :)

Margaret
(who just started a radical unschooling list for Washington state and thinks
this story would be a great way to start things off)

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-Well I have been using it for a while now and I still have a lot to
>
> learn about it. It's a simple idea yet not easy for me. You didn't like
> that eeny-teeny spello, which I never noticed next to the big wonderful
> idea. Thanks, lady.-=-
>
> Thank you for the kind words! I can tell you the story of where that
> tool came from, the "make the better choice." I've told it before,
> but there are always some new people.
>
> About 20 years ago (a little more), at Grand Outlandish, a big SCA
> campout here on Memorial Day weekend, a friend of ours was going to
> be knighted, so he was "on vigil"--our version of a medieval knight's
> vigil in a church, but ours is usually (and was that night) the
> knighthood candidate sitting formally in a tent (or a room, but we
> were camping) as people come by singly or in small groups to advise
> him or to speak with him as they wish. Some bring gifts. I brought
> a candle that night. He was in a tent I had made myself, that
> night, and his name was Leif.
>
> He said he was worried that his camping equipment wasn't good enough,
> and that as a knight he should set a better example. At that point,
> Keith and I had been improving our own camp for eight years or so,
> and he used that as an example, and another one of someone who had
> been doing it for a while. He asked how he could have a camp like
> that, and he seemed to feel it needed to be immediately, or he might
> as well not start.
>
> That feeling of being overwhelmed about how to start caused me to
> advise him thusly:
>
> As you replace items, make the more medieval choice and incrementally
> your camp will get better. If you're getting a tent and your choices
> are nylon or canvas, choose canvas. If your choice is orange or
> brown, choose brown. Make the better choice.
>
> I went back to my own camp all energized and excited, even though it
> was after midnight, and told Gunwaldt and Artan (Keith my husband and
> Jeff my friend and camping buddy) about it, and we all were happy
> with the breakthrough in the way we could advise people on all KINDS
> of things with that. Kirby was a baby then. It helped me be a
> better mom.
>
> You don't have to barrel toward your goal without looking around.
> You can get there naturally if when there's an option you make the
> one that takes you nearer to the place or the way you want to be.
> And as time went by and I tried that advice out in different contexts
> and with different people, I added the idea that before you can make
> a choice, you have to have at least two options. Some people talk
> the talk like they're making choices, but they're not stopping to
> think of options, really.
>
> In the first Terminator movie (NOT a favorite of mine), the little
> pull-down menu of options he has to consider reminds me of this
> idea. And you can learn and add more good options to your menu, and
> eliminate those you don't need or use anymore because you have better
> ones.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Can I quote this story on a local unschooling list? I really like
it :)-=-

Sure.

You can quote anything I've ever written, if you tell who and where.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

I just wanted to thank you all for the suggestions, comments etc..
Honestly, today was great and I think it was because I really was
feeling quite relieved. For the past few weeks I have been thinking of
all these things I should be doing... making chore lists and trying to
entice my oldest son into learning to read. I have been reading
online "typical day of homeschoolers" and honestly found it all so very
depressing. I cant interupt a kid that is playing with action figures
and cooperating with his brothers and sister and tell him it time to
learn something... Finding the unschooling sites and lists helped so
much. My little B had a couple breakdowns but I stayed cool, talked to
him about how he felt, discussed a little about more effective ways to
deal with his frustrations and he calmed down so much faster.
I spent alot of time today thinking about my descisions instead of just
doing stuff the regular old way. It has been kind of exciting to think
about things I hadnt thought about before. the kids liked it too.
Thanks