Should I change the list description?
Sandra Dodd
Recently (well always, but recently) three or four members have
complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").
I guess there are a few issues. If I sent a newcomers welcome (and I
might; I don't remember), people tend to ignore those. I usually
ignore them myself, these days, when I join groups, because they're
usually the default yahoo message.
People can join this group without going through the front entrance,
by using a subscribe e-mail, and they can do that from the front page
of my site. So it's not like there's the required reading of the
intro and a test.
Should I change the description? Here's what it's said for years:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").
I guess there are a few issues. If I sent a newcomers welcome (and I
might; I don't remember), people tend to ignore those. I usually
ignore them myself, these days, when I join groups, because they're
usually the default yahoo message.
People can join this group without going through the front entrance,
by using a subscribe e-mail, and they can do that from the front page
of my site. So it's not like there's the required reading of the
intro and a test.
Should I change the description? Here's what it's said for years:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
I like the description of the list, and the mention that there are other lists with other purposes. You can't please everyone. I didn't understand how to get on the lists at first, and I think I offended you myself, so I can at least speak from a bumblers viewpoint! Cameron
J Geller
I like it the way it is. I do like the idea of having you include local links on your website or something. There has been talk recently about where people are from and I include my city under my name most of the time. I came to this list because our local unschoolers list seemed to be trying to be so inclusive that it had lost the principles of unschooling and had become radical unschooling unfriendly. I had never considered myself a real unschooler until I realized that I had way more in common with the radical unschoolers than with anyone else.
As you said in a previous email, you can't be responsible for people feeling welcome. I like the way you are trying to stay true to principles.
But that is just me.
Jae
Redmond, WA
From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Should I change the list description?
Recently (well always, but recently) three or four members have
complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").
I guess there are a few issues. If I sent a newcomers welcome (and I
might; I don't remember), people tend to ignore those. I usually
ignore them myself, these days, when I join groups, because they're
usually the default yahoo message.
People can join this group without going through the front entrance,
by using a subscribe e-mail, and they can do that from the front page
of my site. So it's not like there's the required reading of the
intro and a test.
Should I change the description? Here's what it's said for years:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion-there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As you said in a previous email, you can't be responsible for people feeling welcome. I like the way you are trying to stay true to principles.
But that is just me.
Jae
Redmond, WA
From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Should I change the list description?
Recently (well always, but recently) three or four members have
complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").
I guess there are a few issues. If I sent a newcomers welcome (and I
might; I don't remember), people tend to ignore those. I usually
ignore them myself, these days, when I join groups, because they're
usually the default yahoo message.
People can join this group without going through the front entrance,
by using a subscribe e-mail, and they can do that from the front page
of my site. So it's not like there's the required reading of the
intro and a test.
Should I change the description? Here's what it's said for years:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion-there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I do like the idea of having you include local links on your
website or something. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/world
Tadaaa!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
website or something. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/world
Tadaaa!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Recently (well always, but recently) three or four members haveIf people put where they are from in their sig line, then others can
> complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
> description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
> really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
> whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
> through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
> Virginia?").
correspond privately. I don't see that issue being a problem. I like
the international aspect of this list and focusing on state issues seems
too much. I don't have a problem with discussing international
differences, that's interesting to me.
I like that the list is specific to unschooling. If someone is checking
out unschooling then they should get a taste of what it really is, not
some watered down version of it. If they don't like unschooling, then
maybe another site would be better for them. If they decide that
unschooling interests them, then this is a great place to stay and learn
more!
I even like that this is a place to discuss John Holt, even though a lot
of people don't, or maybe even haven't read anything he's written. It
seems a lot of folks that unschool, come from other avenues, and that's
cool, but unschooling does have a history in John Holt and that's worth
knowing more about and discussing.
Joanna Murphy
Two friends and I have started a local unschooler's group, and even though we spent hours
crafting a vision statement, intro letter and description to make it clear that the intent of our
group was about exploring unschooling, it didn't really matter.
We even used the phrase, "When we leave the curriculum and the school discussions
behind...." That didn't do the trick either--the discussion on our list seems to be centered
around charter schools, curriculum, classes, and how unschooling means whatever works for
the family. I'm learning that people are often going to think what they think--or sometimes
choose not to think!! (O.k., I'm a little frustrated right now!--lol)
I think the only way people will figure out how this list works is to have their experience with
it and figure it out. Although, come to think of it, you could add a line right on the front
page encouraging people to read for a bit before they post.
Joanna
crafting a vision statement, intro letter and description to make it clear that the intent of our
group was about exploring unschooling, it didn't really matter.
We even used the phrase, "When we leave the curriculum and the school discussions
behind...." That didn't do the trick either--the discussion on our list seems to be centered
around charter schools, curriculum, classes, and how unschooling means whatever works for
the family. I'm learning that people are often going to think what they think--or sometimes
choose not to think!! (O.k., I'm a little frustrated right now!--lol)
I think the only way people will figure out how this list works is to have their experience with
it and figure it out. Although, come to think of it, you could add a line right on the front
page encouraging people to read for a bit before they post.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-I even like that this is a place to discuss John Holt, even though
a lot
of people don't, or maybe even haven't read anything he's written. It
seems a lot of folks that unschool, come from other avenues, and that's
cool, but unschooling does have a history in John Holt and that's worth
knowing more about and discussing.-=
And anyone who doesn't want to find, buy and read whole books can
read quite a bit here:
http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
-=-I think the only way people will figure out how this list works is
to have their experience with it and figure it out. -=-
It makes me seem like a bad guy.
-=-Although, come to think of it, you could add a line right on the
front page encouraging people to read for a bit before they post.-=-
We try that at UnschoolingDiscussion and people plow on through (or
plough on through, depending where they live).
Thanks for helping me think about this.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a lot
of people don't, or maybe even haven't read anything he's written. It
seems a lot of folks that unschool, come from other avenues, and that's
cool, but unschooling does have a history in John Holt and that's worth
knowing more about and discussing.-=
And anyone who doesn't want to find, buy and read whole books can
read quite a bit here:
http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
-=-I think the only way people will figure out how this list works is
to have their experience with it and figure it out. -=-
It makes me seem like a bad guy.
-=-Although, come to think of it, you could add a line right on the
front page encouraging people to read for a bit before they post.-=-
We try that at UnschoolingDiscussion and people plow on through (or
plough on through, depending where they live).
Thanks for helping me think about this.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Ok. There's also the new Radical Unschooler's Network. Anyone who joins
can post their location. I did. Anyone who is interested in local stuff
can hook up with people from their state or region on that network and ask
questions about local stuff. Radical unschoolers are very eager to share
ideas, to help others gain what they can from unschooling philosophy and to
meetup with others in their local area.
So. I think the list description and the function of the list works very
well (and has for a number of years). It's very successful at what it
does. But there's a problem with doing networking stuff on a yahoo list.
The problem is that while the content is made to be archived and is
searchable, when at any point in time someone reads old posts requesting
local information, the information is either outdated or people who once
wrote are not as easy to reach as the moment they posted something. Getting
new responses is spotty because many people read messages on the web instead
of having posts delivered to their inbox and many many people aren't online
a lot either. And to an extent this is a problem no matter what the format.
I'm for keeping the list as is and referring elsewhere for networking and up
to date local info purposes.
~Katherine
can post their location. I did. Anyone who is interested in local stuff
can hook up with people from their state or region on that network and ask
questions about local stuff. Radical unschoolers are very eager to share
ideas, to help others gain what they can from unschooling philosophy and to
meetup with others in their local area.
So. I think the list description and the function of the list works very
well (and has for a number of years). It's very successful at what it
does. But there's a problem with doing networking stuff on a yahoo list.
The problem is that while the content is made to be archived and is
searchable, when at any point in time someone reads old posts requesting
local information, the information is either outdated or people who once
wrote are not as easy to reach as the moment they posted something. Getting
new responses is spotty because many people read messages on the web instead
of having posts delivered to their inbox and many many people aren't online
a lot either. And to an extent this is a problem no matter what the format.
I'm for keeping the list as is and referring elsewhere for networking and up
to date local info purposes.
~Katherine
On 7/17/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Recently (well always, but recently) three or four members have
> complained to me on the side about the list. I send them the list
> description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
> really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
> whatever. One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
> through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
> Virginia?").
>
>
> I guess there are a few issues. If I sent a newcomers welcome (and I
> might; I don't remember), people tend to ignore those. I usually
> ignore them myself, these days, when I join groups, because they're
> usually the default yahoo message.
>
> People can join this group without going through the front entrance,
> by using a subscribe e-mail, and they can do that from the front page
> of my site. So it's not like there's the required reading of the
> intro and a test.
>
>
>
> Should I change the description? Here's what it's said for years:
>
>
>
> Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
> All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
> unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
> This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
> moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
> way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
> unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
> hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
> focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
> are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
> jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
> Sandra@...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>I guess I don't have to say here that people have their own perception no
> -=-I think the only way people will figure out how this list works is
> to have their experience with it and figure it out. -=-
>
> It makes me seem like a bad guy.
>
matter what kind of pretzel one bends into for their sake to say what others
want to hear or to clarify one's own position or whatever one chooses to
try.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2008 6:09:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sandra@... writes:
<<<I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever.>>>
I think the description on the home page is clear enough for arguments like
these. The list is largely about ideas and thoughts and in a lesser way,
problem solving, not individuals and "making sure everyone feels comfortable". I
think working to make sure folks aren't offended dilutes the process of
discussion, personally. Discussions on this list (and Unschooling Discussion) have
sometimes taken me aback or made me uncomfortable but have *always* helped me
to think more clearly, examine myself and those "mindless thoughts" more
closely. More than any other list.
<<<One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").>>>
Maybe for this, set up something in the "Links" or "Database" section where
folks can put in different groups, contacts, Yahoo groups for things local. I
think there used to be something like this on Unschooling Discussion before
it moved to Google Groups? Folks could even put in their own e-mail address if
they were willing to discuss details and the finer points of regulations in
their area. Just a thought.
Personally, I always check the home page of any group I join, so that I know
what I'm getting into, how to post and what is accepted and not so welcome.
That's what I think the description of the group is for. Even if I go in the
"back door" way, I always go to the front and "check out the neighborhood".
Personally, I almost always do this *before* I join.
Personally, I think the description is fine.
Peace,
De
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
<<<I send them the list
description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
whatever.>>>
I think the description on the home page is clear enough for arguments like
these. The list is largely about ideas and thoughts and in a lesser way,
problem solving, not individuals and "making sure everyone feels comfortable". I
think working to make sure folks aren't offended dilutes the process of
discussion, personally. Discussions on this list (and Unschooling Discussion) have
sometimes taken me aback or made me uncomfortable but have *always* helped me
to think more clearly, examine myself and those "mindless thoughts" more
closely. More than any other list.
<<<One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
Virginia?").>>>
Maybe for this, set up something in the "Links" or "Database" section where
folks can put in different groups, contacts, Yahoo groups for things local. I
think there used to be something like this on Unschooling Discussion before
it moved to Google Groups? Folks could even put in their own e-mail address if
they were willing to discuss details and the finer points of regulations in
their area. Just a thought.
Personally, I always check the home page of any group I join, so that I know
what I'm getting into, how to post and what is accepted and not so welcome.
That's what I think the description of the group is for. Even if I go in the
"back door" way, I always go to the front and "check out the neighborhood".
Personally, I almost always do this *before* I join.
Personally, I think the description is fine.
Peace,
De
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Boxwell
All-
I LOVE that this list isn't a bunch of local, how to, or please pray for
my dog, type posts. I love the BIG ideas. Even when I don't agree with
"the list" it still stretches me to read the posts.
Thanks again,
Rebecca
PS - If you are taking requests I would like to be able to get constant
audio of Sandra talking about whatever comes to mind, and perhaps
sprinkling in some John Holt quotes. :)
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:46:24 EDT, Sanguinegirl83@... said:
I LOVE that this list isn't a bunch of local, how to, or please pray for
my dog, type posts. I love the BIG ideas. Even when I don't agree with
"the list" it still stretches me to read the posts.
Thanks again,
Rebecca
PS - If you are taking requests I would like to be able to get constant
audio of Sandra talking about whatever comes to mind, and perhaps
sprinkling in some John Holt quotes. :)
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:46:24 EDT, Sanguinegirl83@... said:
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2008 6:09:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Sandra@... writes:
>
> <<<I send them the list
> description, but by then they feel unwelcome because they aren't
> really unschooling (or not yet), or they're "Waldorf inspired" or
> whatever.>>>
>
>
> I think the description on the home page is clear enough for arguments
> like
> these. The list is largely about ideas and thoughts and in a lesser way,
> problem solving, not individuals and "making sure everyone feels
> comfortable". I
> think working to make sure folks aren't offended dilutes the process of
> discussion, personally. Discussions on this list (and Unschooling
> Discussion) have
> sometimes taken me aback or made me uncomfortable but have *always*
> helped me
> to think more clearly, examine myself and those "mindless thoughts" more
> closely. More than any other list.
>
> <<<One complaint was that I wasn't letting local questions
> through ("Who lives near me?" or "How to I do this'n'such in West
> Virginia?").>>>
> Maybe for this, set up something in the "Links" or "Database" section
> where
> folks can put in different groups, contacts, Yahoo groups for things
> local. I
> think there used to be something like this on Unschooling Discussion
> before
> it moved to Google Groups? Folks could even put in their own e-mail
> address if
> they were willing to discuss details and the finer points of regulations
> in
> their area. Just a thought.
>
> Personally, I always check the home page of any group I join, so that I
> know
> what I'm getting into, how to post and what is accepted and not so
> welcome.
> That's what I think the description of the group is for. Even if I go in
> the
> "back door" way, I always go to the front and "check out the
> neighborhood".
> Personally, I almost always do this *before* I join.
>
> Personally, I think the description is fine.
>
> Peace,
> De
>
>
>
> **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
> FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
J Geller
Was that there all along and I missed it or did you just do it? Either way, you are amazing.
Jae
From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Should I change the list description?
-=-I do like the idea of having you include local links on your
website or something. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/world
Tadaaa!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jae
From: Sandra Dodd
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Should I change the list description?
-=-I do like the idea of having you include local links on your
website or something. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/world
Tadaaa!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J Geller
It makes me seem like a bad guy.
Sandra
------------------------------------------------------
It may make you feel like a bad guy but I don't think it makes you seem like a bad guy. I think that you have great intellectual integrity. (I love my spell check so that I can write things like that.) I really like that you moderate and call people on things. That is why I am really liking this list. I want to be called on my thinking and expression in a supportive, nonjudgmental manner.
After the discussion about attentive parenting, I have been thinking that having an attentive parent and having choice is what really lets our kids grow and learn. For this list, you act as the attentive parent and we all have choice in reading and replying. You may sometimes feel like you are being a bad guy but I think that happens when one is an attentive parent. You aren't rude or controlling and are a great role model for me in the way you communicate.
I think that many of us are used to controlling parents who aren't attentive, and are trying to not treat our kids the way we were treated. If people get defensive, it isn't your problem and you shouldn't take it personally. But if you do, that is something that we all feel at times, and you are still a role model in how you handle it.
Thanks Mom,
Jae
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra
------------------------------------------------------
It may make you feel like a bad guy but I don't think it makes you seem like a bad guy. I think that you have great intellectual integrity. (I love my spell check so that I can write things like that.) I really like that you moderate and call people on things. That is why I am really liking this list. I want to be called on my thinking and expression in a supportive, nonjudgmental manner.
After the discussion about attentive parenting, I have been thinking that having an attentive parent and having choice is what really lets our kids grow and learn. For this list, you act as the attentive parent and we all have choice in reading and replying. You may sometimes feel like you are being a bad guy but I think that happens when one is an attentive parent. You aren't rude or controlling and are a great role model for me in the way you communicate.
I think that many of us are used to controlling parents who aren't attentive, and are trying to not treat our kids the way we were treated. If people get defensive, it isn't your problem and you shouldn't take it personally. But if you do, that is something that we all feel at times, and you are still a role model in how you handle it.
Thanks Mom,
Jae
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-PS - If you are taking requests I would like to be able to get
constant
audio of Sandra talking about whatever comes to mind, and perhaps
sprinkling in some John Holt quotes. :)-=-
Well... thanks?
My family would probably gladly trade me away sometimes. I do talk...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
constant
audio of Sandra talking about whatever comes to mind, and perhaps
sprinkling in some John Holt quotes. :)-=-
Well... thanks?
My family would probably gladly trade me away sometimes. I do talk...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Was that there all along and I missed it or did you just do it?
Either way, you are amazing.
Jae-=-
Thanks!
That used to be two different pages, and those are some of my oldest
pages. That little moving sun was one of the first pieces of art I
ever had on a webpage, years ago, on expage.com. I saved it as a
souvenir of when webpages were really crummy. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Either way, you are amazing.
Jae-=-
Thanks!
That used to be two different pages, and those are some of my oldest
pages. That little moving sun was one of the first pieces of art I
ever had on a webpage, years ago, on expage.com. I saved it as a
souvenir of when webpages were really crummy. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thanks Mom,
Jae-=-
Well thanks, and NO thanks! Although I'm old enough to be the mom of
many of you, and the younger sister of very few others. I'll be 55
next week. My oldest will be 22. That's altogether old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jae-=-
Well thanks, and NO thanks! Although I'm old enough to be the mom of
many of you, and the younger sister of very few others. I'll be 55
next week. My oldest will be 22. That's altogether old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:22 PM, J Geller <gellerjh@...> wrote:
bull$hit" :D Maybe "The truths will set you free, but first they'll confront
you full in the face whether you're ready or not" --here you can discuss how
to parent thru the confrontation, to the freedom on the other side :D there
will be lots of practice provided by your own demons and the human beings in
your vicinity (especially those with opinions, oh yeah, all of 'em).
I think the list's name is misleading... folks may come here thinking it's a
"there, there, we're all Always Learning," hand patting, kind-of-place.
There's an amazing sense of urgency in the messages on your lists that I
truly appreciate; the shift to "HERE, HERE, we're all Always Learning --
NOW!" -- it is obviously a big shocker to lots of people who are *really*
attached to whatever they're doing and calling it "unschooling." The most of
us here could attest to that, I'm sure. If we're still here, we'll also
attest to that being the best discomfort ever. So thanks for that part of
you, the part you've dubbed *the bad guy* when you're actually the kick-a$$
good guy. Like the master in Kill Bill... he kicked Uma's ass and in the
end, she wasn't no fear-filled, sniveling weakling, that's fer sure! You
just need a cool beard to flick ;)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I want to be called on my thinking and expression in a supportive,Maybe there should be a fine print clause of "you will be called on your
> nonjudgmental manner.
>
>
>
>
bull$hit" :D Maybe "The truths will set you free, but first they'll confront
you full in the face whether you're ready or not" --here you can discuss how
to parent thru the confrontation, to the freedom on the other side :D there
will be lots of practice provided by your own demons and the human beings in
your vicinity (especially those with opinions, oh yeah, all of 'em).
I think the list's name is misleading... folks may come here thinking it's a
"there, there, we're all Always Learning," hand patting, kind-of-place.
There's an amazing sense of urgency in the messages on your lists that I
truly appreciate; the shift to "HERE, HERE, we're all Always Learning --
NOW!" -- it is obviously a big shocker to lots of people who are *really*
attached to whatever they're doing and calling it "unschooling." The most of
us here could attest to that, I'm sure. If we're still here, we'll also
attest to that being the best discomfort ever. So thanks for that part of
you, the part you've dubbed *the bad guy* when you're actually the kick-a$$
good guy. Like the master in Kill Bill... he kicked Uma's ass and in the
end, she wasn't no fear-filled, sniveling weakling, that's fer sure! You
just need a cool beard to flick ;)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-You just need a cool beard to flick ;)-=-
Keith's doesn't count, I guess.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Keith's doesn't count, I guess.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My family would probably gladly trade me away sometimes. I do talk...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
'
That is because you have not met me. Ask Schuyler!<g>
At least you have great things to say and I cannot say that about me ...
most of the time.
<BWG>
In my case it is genetic. If you meet my sister and my mom you will understand
:)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
'
That is because you have not met me. Ask Schuyler!<g>
At least you have great things to say and I cannot say that about me ...
most of the time.
<BWG>
In my case it is genetic. If you meet my sister and my mom you will understand
:)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
When is your birthday? My birthday is next friday, July 25th. I'm 43. I told my students that today, and they were ohhh, that's old. And I said, well I like having birthdays, it's better than the alternative. They didn't get it...
Joylyn
---- Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Joylyn
---- Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Thanks Mom,
> Jae-=-
>
>
>
> Well thanks, and NO thanks! Although I'm old enough to be the mom of
> many of you, and the younger sister of very few others. I'll be 55
> next week. My oldest will be 22. That's altogether old.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
SoundHunter
I don't post much so my opinion is not likely to hold much sway, but
the only thing I'd change about the description is the whole intro part
about John Holt. I'm one of a few families I know trying to make
unschooling work for our family who've yet to read any John Holt books.
I get my info from a few mailing lists that I read, some blogs that I
follow and your site and Joyce's site. I'll get to reading some John
Holt eventually, but our finances are a bit tight and there's a heck of
a lot of free info online :) Also, been reading here for awhile and
have yet to see any discussions about Holt's books, so that whole intro
part doesn't seem to accurately portray the conversations and ideas
happening in this list, everything else sounds pretty good to me. Back
to quietly lurking.
Rachel
the only thing I'd change about the description is the whole intro part
about John Holt. I'm one of a few families I know trying to make
unschooling work for our family who've yet to read any John Holt books.
I get my info from a few mailing lists that I read, some blogs that I
follow and your site and Joyce's site. I'll get to reading some John
Holt eventually, but our finances are a bit tight and there's a heck of
a lot of free info online :) Also, been reading here for awhile and
have yet to see any discussions about Holt's books, so that whole intro
part doesn't seem to accurately portray the conversations and ideas
happening in this list, everything else sounds pretty good to me. Back
to quietly lurking.
Rachel
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 18, 2008, at 2:15 AM, SoundHunter wrote:
My assumption is always that no one is going to read all of any
description. Even if they do they aren't going to absorb all of it.
(I vaguely remember a study that said patients only picked up a third
of the instructions from doctors. And that's for information they
wanted to remember.)
The first phrase is what they'll use as a foundation to build from.
While the idea you're getting at is clear from an experienced
unschoolers' view point, I don't think it creates the right
foundation for most people.
What would a list that starts "Discussion for communist fans of Karl
Marx" be about?
One of the biggest problems of describing lists like this is the
words don't mean what we wish they did. Discussion list doesn't mean
discussion list to lots of people. It means place to come chit chat
with others about what you do. (The first word my thesaurus gives me
for discussion is "conversation".) Unschooling means whatever someone
decides it means for their family.
Examination of ideas?
Analysis of ideas?
Are those too scary? Maybe it *should* be scary for the people who
think examination and analysis are scary. They'll know to stay away.
"List for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and
attentive parenting."
That's not it though. Though examination goes on, it's more about
living the life for people who've already done the examining.
"List for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and
attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on
those principles."
Maybe too wordy but I tend to do that. ;-) Maybe it can't be
described in one sentence and needs several to capture each of the
aspects.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the only thing I'd change about the description is the whole introI was going to say that too. ;-)
> part
> about John Holt.
My assumption is always that no one is going to read all of any
description. Even if they do they aren't going to absorb all of it.
(I vaguely remember a study that said patients only picked up a third
of the instructions from doctors. And that's for information they
wanted to remember.)
The first phrase is what they'll use as a foundation to build from.
While the idea you're getting at is clear from an experienced
unschoolers' view point, I don't think it creates the right
foundation for most people.
What would a list that starts "Discussion for communist fans of Karl
Marx" be about?
One of the biggest problems of describing lists like this is the
words don't mean what we wish they did. Discussion list doesn't mean
discussion list to lots of people. It means place to come chit chat
with others about what you do. (The first word my thesaurus gives me
for discussion is "conversation".) Unschooling means whatever someone
decides it means for their family.
Examination of ideas?
Analysis of ideas?
Are those too scary? Maybe it *should* be scary for the people who
think examination and analysis are scary. They'll know to stay away.
"List for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and
attentive parenting."
That's not it though. Though examination goes on, it's more about
living the life for people who've already done the examining.
"List for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and
attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on
those principles."
Maybe too wordy but I tend to do that. ;-) Maybe it can't be
described in one sentence and needs several to capture each of the
aspects.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Wilkinson
I get my info from a few mailing lists that I read, some blogs that I
as this list is (and others), there is a lot of really interesting
observations and ideas he has about children and the way they learn.
It's from a different perspective than being a parent living with your
kids. I found my first John Holt book on a free shelf in the library.
I had read him already by checking out one of his books from the
library and when I saw another book on the free shelf, it was like
finding gold! It was a long time ago and I haven't read anything of
his in a while. I have 3 of his books here and only purchased one of
them "Learning All the Time". If you really want to read John Holt,
I'm sure you can do it without putting up any $$.
Joanna W.
> follow and your site and Joyce's site. I'll get to reading some Johnof
> Holt eventually, but our finances are a bit tight and there's a heck
> a lot of free info online :)>I would highly recommend reading some of John Holts stuff. As awesome
as this list is (and others), there is a lot of really interesting
observations and ideas he has about children and the way they learn.
It's from a different perspective than being a parent living with your
kids. I found my first John Holt book on a free shelf in the library.
I had read him already by checking out one of his books from the
library and when I saw another book on the free shelf, it was like
finding gold! It was a long time ago and I haven't read anything of
his in a while. I have 3 of his books here and only purchased one of
them "Learning All the Time". If you really want to read John Holt,
I'm sure you can do it without putting up any $$.
Joanna W.
carnationsgalore
> I want to be called on my thinking and expression in a supportive,I feel this way too. I believe I've joined and left this list several
> nonjudgmental manner.
times starting in 2006. Each time I rejoined, I was in a little bit
different place in unschooling. I have been offended many times on
this list, even to the point of tears. Then after thinking about it
for a while, I realized it was because I was facing something that
needed to be addressed. I can honestly say that I've grown more as a
person, parent and unschooler due to the discussions on this list than
on any other list I've been on.
I believe the list description is clear. I also believe that new
unschoolers aren't really comprehending what this list is really like
because of their expectations and their preconceived notions of
unschoolers. They are coming onto this list expecting something in
particular and I don't think the words in the description are going to
matter.
Have you asked the people who have complained what you could change
about the description that might make them understand the list better?
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Have you asked the people who have complained what you could change
about the description that might make them understand the list
better? -=-
No, because usually just quoting the list description to them shows
they hadn't even read it.
So maybe my question isn't even valid. <g> Maybe it should be "what
should I do about people not reading the list description and then
being all tacky to me?"
And I guess the answer is quote them the list description as they're
leaving and tell them to think about reading intro pages the next
time they join a list.
I suppose it's a need in some people, to be pampered and spoon fed,
but I only want to do that for my kids, my husband when he's sick
and friends in the hospital. I don't have the personality of a
nurse, and if I did, this list might turn into a sick ward of people
who wanted to discuss themselves instead of unschooling, and then all
the brilliant and thoughtful people who help make it so wonderful
here would wander off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about the description that might make them understand the list
better? -=-
No, because usually just quoting the list description to them shows
they hadn't even read it.
So maybe my question isn't even valid. <g> Maybe it should be "what
should I do about people not reading the list description and then
being all tacky to me?"
And I guess the answer is quote them the list description as they're
leaving and tell them to think about reading intro pages the next
time they join a list.
I suppose it's a need in some people, to be pampered and spoon fed,
but I only want to do that for my kids, my husband when he's sick
and friends in the hospital. I don't have the personality of a
nurse, and if I did, this list might turn into a sick ward of people
who wanted to discuss themselves instead of unschooling, and then all
the brilliant and thoughtful people who help make it so wonderful
here would wander off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, been reading here for awhile and
have yet to see any discussions about Holt's books, so that whole intro
part doesn't seem to accurately portray the conversations and ideas
happening in this list, everything else sounds pretty good to me.-=-
Well that's true!
(Don't forget libraries--you could borrow Holt books.)
I was hugely inspired by the John Holt stuff I read when I was in
college, and then it had a whole new level of meaning when Kirby
seemed like a guy who would not fit into school very well. And by
then, Teach Your Own was published. Pretty exciting for me.
But things are different now for people who come to unschooling.
John Holt died before their kids were even born (mine too; Kirby was
born in 1986 and Holt died in 1985). Soon there will be unschooling
moms who were born after Holt died.
Now the inspirations are more likely to be the young adults who never
went to school. I don't want to cut John Holt mentions out entirely,
because if it hadn't been for him unschooling wouldn't have come so
far so fast. But things he wrote are basic to what we're doing.
I'll think about changing that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have yet to see any discussions about Holt's books, so that whole intro
part doesn't seem to accurately portray the conversations and ideas
happening in this list, everything else sounds pretty good to me.-=-
Well that's true!
(Don't forget libraries--you could borrow Holt books.)
I was hugely inspired by the John Holt stuff I read when I was in
college, and then it had a whole new level of meaning when Kirby
seemed like a guy who would not fit into school very well. And by
then, Teach Your Own was published. Pretty exciting for me.
But things are different now for people who come to unschooling.
John Holt died before their kids were even born (mine too; Kirby was
born in 1986 and Holt died in 1985). Soon there will be unschooling
moms who were born after Holt died.
Now the inspirations are more likely to be the young adults who never
went to school. I don't want to cut John Holt mentions out entirely,
because if it hadn't been for him unschooling wouldn't have come so
far so fast. But things he wrote are basic to what we're doing.
I'll think about changing that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
What about this. It seems choppy, but maybe people will read lots of
little paragraphs better than one solid one. I have 600 characters
left.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
Always Learning will focus more toward how people learn no matter
where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any
particular country or jurisdiction.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)
If you've never read any John Holt, please do! Here's a bit: John Holt
If you have questions or complaints, write to the listowner, Sandra
Dodd: Sandra@...
This list description was changed in July, 2008. The older
description and some notes are here: sandradodd.com/alwayslearning.
"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and
unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list
I've been on."
This and other feedback can be read here.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
little paragraphs better than one solid one. I have 600 characters
left.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
Always Learning will focus more toward how people learn no matter
where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any
particular country or jurisdiction.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)
If you've never read any John Holt, please do! Here's a bit: John Holt
If you have questions or complaints, write to the listowner, Sandra
Dodd: Sandra@...
This list description was changed in July, 2008. The older
description and some notes are here: sandradodd.com/alwayslearning.
"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and
unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list
I've been on."
This and other feedback can be read here.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> -=-Also, been reading here for awhile andintro
> have yet to see any discussions about Holt's books, so that whole
> part doesn't seem to accurately portray the conversations and ideasOccasionaly, Holt has been brought up. I know because, I was the one
> happening in this list, everything else sounds pretty good to me.-=-
>
> Well that's true!
who brought it up a while back... Don't really remember what context,
but I had acquired a new Holt book here and so it was fresh reading and
fresh in my head. Every time I read one of his books, I gain new
information that directly applies to unschooling.
> Now the inspirations are more likely to be the young adults who neverNo, don't cut out John Holt! I agree about coming so far so fast. I
> went to school. I don't want to cut John Holt mentions out entirely,
> because if it hadn't been for him unschooling wouldn't have come so
> far so fast. But things he wrote are basic to what we're doing.
>
>
>
> I'll think about changing that.
heard about John Holt when I first started homeschooling when Chamille
was 5. If I hadn't been aware of John Holt and how he coined
"unschooling", I really believe it would've been years later that I
would've really gotten to unschooling. His ideas about how kids learn
really hit home for me. I came to the attentive parenting aspect of
unschooling slower and later. It's not that I was an unattentive
parent, it's just that Chamille was an easy child. When Margaux came
along I was already into unschooling and had to relearn how to be
attentive and patient because of the kind of kid she was/is. Chamille
benefitted from that change in my parenting too.
It's like I had the unschooling down, and then grew into all the other
aspects that make unschooling work well. I'm more analytical, so while
attentive parenting makes perfect sense to me, it's not hugely
analytical like discussing child psychology and how schools really mess
kids up.
Meghan Anderson-Coates
I like it. I think people are more likely to read info in snippets rather than a block of text. I also think people often just read the first paragraph or two and jump in. The first two paragraphs are clear and succinct as to what this group is about. I do think it would be helpful to include a paragraph suggesting that newcomers read for a few days (at least!) first to get a feel for the list, and to see if it's what they are seeking.
Meghan
Too much rigidity on the part of teachers should be followed by a brisk spirit of insubordination on the part of the taught.
~ Agnes Repplier
******Sandra wrote*******
What about this. It seems choppy, but maybe people will read lots of
little paragraphs better than one solid one. I have 600 characters
left.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
Always Learning will focus more toward how people learn no matter
where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any
particular country or jurisdiction.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)
If you've never read any John Holt, please do! Here's a bit: John Holt
If you have questions or complaints, write to the listowner, Sandra
Dodd: Sandra@SandraDodd. com
This list description was changed in July, 2008. The older
description and some notes are here: sandradodd.com/ alwayslearning.
"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and
unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list
I've been on."
This and other feedback can be read here.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meghan
Too much rigidity on the part of teachers should be followed by a brisk spirit of insubordination on the part of the taught.
~ Agnes Repplier
******Sandra wrote*******
What about this. It seems choppy, but maybe people will read lots of
little paragraphs better than one solid one. I have 600 characters
left.
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
Always Learning will focus more toward how people learn no matter
where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any
particular country or jurisdiction.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)
If you've never read any John Holt, please do! Here's a bit: John Holt
If you have questions or complaints, write to the listowner, Sandra
Dodd: Sandra@SandraDodd. com
This list description was changed in July, 2008. The older
description and some notes are here: sandradodd.com/ alwayslearning.
"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and
unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list
I've been on."
This and other feedback can be read here.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative.
(Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-
play way. New members' posts are moderated, and it's good to read
several dozen posts before jumping in.) -=-
I think if someone goes into the archives or reads the recent posts
they can catch up well, so I went by posts instead of days.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-
play way. New members' posts are moderated, and it's good to read
several dozen posts before jumping in.) -=-
I think if someone goes into the archives or reads the recent posts
they can catch up well, so I went by posts instead of days.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]