Telling our kids the answers vs. having them figure it out themselves
[email protected]
Here's part of an e-mail I received offlist from the "How to Screw it Up"
thread that I thought I'd bring here with my response:
<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>
I was told to "look it up" all the time when I was a kid. I often ended up
feeling frustrated, sad, angry, lonely and/or misunderstood *and* it often
made me lose the enthusiasm I had for the project I was working on. How
frustrating it was to me to be writing a story, the flow of ideas running quickly and
smoothly from my brain through the pen onto paper, completely immersed in
the idea I was conveying, when I'd get stuck on a spelling or needed to know if
the word I wanted to use in that particular spot was the right definition
for what I was trying to say and I'd search around for help. Parents. They were
older, wiser, had more information than I did, and they were right there! It
would have been so wonderful to have the person who knew the answer to just
give it to me so I could go on learning and creating. Instead, I got the rote
response and my enthusiasm dulled. Add to that, the time it took to go to
the other end of the house and dig through the book to get the item I needed
often broke my train of thought so thoroughly that I couldn't finish my project
as well as I could have if someone could have just inserted the item directly
into my flow of thought. Yuck.
Sometimes, my dad would say something to the effect of, "Let's go get the
encyclopedia and see." When that happened, we often spent at least 20 minutes,
sometimes an entire afternoon looking at things in the set, one thing leading
to another, Dad's experiences being shared and filling the "search" periods.
It was truly "connections" as one thing led to another which led to another
and yet another.
<<<First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person???>>>
I always gladly spell whatever my son asks me to-even using a dictionary or
spellcheck to make certain that I'm correct. It hasn't yet hampered his desire
to look things up, learn or his desire to acquire knowledge. It definitely
helps him keep the flow in his projects. It also solidifies our relationship
so that he knows if he needs help with anything, I am always willing to
help-even if I need to get help myself to help *him*. And I *love* looking things
up together with him! I'm sure I will with his younger brother as well, when
that time comes.
I don't plan on not being around for my son to ask for a mighty long time,
yet. By the time I'm no longer around, he should have a full understanding of
the many, varied ways he can find the answers he seeks. And asking for help
won't be something taboo or to be avoided because it was required. I feel
giving my son answers or looking them up with him is a joy and another way to not
only spend time with him, but to show him that learning need never stop and
that it is fun as well as something people can do together-not a lonely chore
one has had foisted upon them. If I were gone, I would heartily hope that he
would ask someone else! If he had a need, I would want him to ask, not keep
silent and feel that he should know or be able to figure something out on his
own. Or heaven forbid-that it was shameful to ask.
<<<Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them.>>>
Once I knew how to look something up, I knew how. I didn't need years of
repeating the process to "ingrain" it in my brain. A handful of tries and I was
confident in my ability to use that source and find the answer(s) I was
seeking. It's fairly simple-well, it was in those days. There is a vast wellspring
of resources now, and the difficulty may be in choosing one or two!
<<<Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>>>>
Okay, I can buy that "seeking answers leads to critical thinking skills",
but honestly, I haven't found anything yet, in our unschooling lives, that
*hasn't* lead to critical thinking skills or just plain old "thinking skills".
Too many negatives there... maybe like this: So far, everything in our
unschooling lives has lead to critical thinking skills or just plain old "thinking
skills". My providing answers for my son or looking things up together has not
stunted his ability to question or evaluate anything he hears that doesn't
"jive" with him. Really, like those rare times with my dad, it tends to lead to
deeper conversations, more connections... more learning and more trust....
and better relationships.
Peace,
De
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thread that I thought I'd bring here with my response:
<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>
I was told to "look it up" all the time when I was a kid. I often ended up
feeling frustrated, sad, angry, lonely and/or misunderstood *and* it often
made me lose the enthusiasm I had for the project I was working on. How
frustrating it was to me to be writing a story, the flow of ideas running quickly and
smoothly from my brain through the pen onto paper, completely immersed in
the idea I was conveying, when I'd get stuck on a spelling or needed to know if
the word I wanted to use in that particular spot was the right definition
for what I was trying to say and I'd search around for help. Parents. They were
older, wiser, had more information than I did, and they were right there! It
would have been so wonderful to have the person who knew the answer to just
give it to me so I could go on learning and creating. Instead, I got the rote
response and my enthusiasm dulled. Add to that, the time it took to go to
the other end of the house and dig through the book to get the item I needed
often broke my train of thought so thoroughly that I couldn't finish my project
as well as I could have if someone could have just inserted the item directly
into my flow of thought. Yuck.
Sometimes, my dad would say something to the effect of, "Let's go get the
encyclopedia and see." When that happened, we often spent at least 20 minutes,
sometimes an entire afternoon looking at things in the set, one thing leading
to another, Dad's experiences being shared and filling the "search" periods.
It was truly "connections" as one thing led to another which led to another
and yet another.
<<<First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person???>>>
I always gladly spell whatever my son asks me to-even using a dictionary or
spellcheck to make certain that I'm correct. It hasn't yet hampered his desire
to look things up, learn or his desire to acquire knowledge. It definitely
helps him keep the flow in his projects. It also solidifies our relationship
so that he knows if he needs help with anything, I am always willing to
help-even if I need to get help myself to help *him*. And I *love* looking things
up together with him! I'm sure I will with his younger brother as well, when
that time comes.
I don't plan on not being around for my son to ask for a mighty long time,
yet. By the time I'm no longer around, he should have a full understanding of
the many, varied ways he can find the answers he seeks. And asking for help
won't be something taboo or to be avoided because it was required. I feel
giving my son answers or looking them up with him is a joy and another way to not
only spend time with him, but to show him that learning need never stop and
that it is fun as well as something people can do together-not a lonely chore
one has had foisted upon them. If I were gone, I would heartily hope that he
would ask someone else! If he had a need, I would want him to ask, not keep
silent and feel that he should know or be able to figure something out on his
own. Or heaven forbid-that it was shameful to ask.
<<<Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them.>>>
Once I knew how to look something up, I knew how. I didn't need years of
repeating the process to "ingrain" it in my brain. A handful of tries and I was
confident in my ability to use that source and find the answer(s) I was
seeking. It's fairly simple-well, it was in those days. There is a vast wellspring
of resources now, and the difficulty may be in choosing one or two!
<<<Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>>>>
Okay, I can buy that "seeking answers leads to critical thinking skills",
but honestly, I haven't found anything yet, in our unschooling lives, that
*hasn't* lead to critical thinking skills or just plain old "thinking skills".
Too many negatives there... maybe like this: So far, everything in our
unschooling lives has lead to critical thinking skills or just plain old "thinking
skills". My providing answers for my son or looking things up together has not
stunted his ability to question or evaluate anything he hears that doesn't
"jive" with him. Really, like those rare times with my dad, it tends to lead to
deeper conversations, more connections... more learning and more trust....
and better relationships.
Peace,
De
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person???>>>
Well yeh. The culture we live in may promote being totally independent and
not being a "burden." The truth is people getting something done, say for a
job, ask for help when needed. If someone right there has the specific info
needed, it's inefficient to spend extra energy and thought running around
looking things up just to say --to yourself mainly-- that you did it.
There's nothing incompetent about asking for help. Anybody can choose to
ask for help, and it works very nicely most of the time if you do.
I will never forget the awful advice from a counselor who evaluated my
hearing when I was in my twenties. Her idea is that people with
disabilities charm others into helping them and thereby become too
dependent. What she said just isn't true.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person???>>>
Well yeh. The culture we live in may promote being totally independent and
not being a "burden." The truth is people getting something done, say for a
job, ask for help when needed. If someone right there has the specific info
needed, it's inefficient to spend extra energy and thought running around
looking things up just to say --to yourself mainly-- that you did it.
There's nothing incompetent about asking for help. Anybody can choose to
ask for help, and it works very nicely most of the time if you do.
I will never forget the awful advice from a counselor who evaluated my
hearing when I was in my twenties. Her idea is that people with
disabilities charm others into helping them and thereby become too
dependent. What she said just isn't true.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
First, a note to whoever wrote this offlist. I'm guessing you were
afraid to put it on the full list. That's okay.
Don't take offense that it will be discussed. That's what discussion
lists are for.
-=<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the
answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>-=-
I'll start at the top, saving the best for last.
I'm guessing the first was a typo/error. I'm guessing the writer
intended "they are more likely to seek out the answers for
themselves"--otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense.
But this...
"What will they do when I am no longer around? Ask another person??? "
That's just coldly illogical. What will your husband do when you're
no longer around? What will your children do for food when you're
not around? Do you want them to start finding solace and sustenance
from other people now? Or do you want to be there for them while
you're still alive?
-=-Second reason: I want them to RELY on their ability to find the
"right" answer for them. -=-
Perhaps they want to rely on you. Perhaps you could show them how to
look things up, and show them that it can be fun. Perhaps it's not
something that needs to be looked up. Maybe you already know the
answer and could share it.
When Keith and I were young, early 20's, he wasn't a good speller and
I didn't know the times tables up around and among 6, 7 and 8. We
made a deal that we would never shame the other or explain, just
spell or give a number. So I would yell across the house "What's 7
times 8? and he would yell back the answer. Or he would come and say
"How do you spell 'committee'?" and I would just spell it, nicely,
generously. So when we had kids it was easy to help them the same
way--NICELY.
My nephew used to call me and ask me all kinds of questions, if his
parents would say "I don't know." They got to saying "Call Aunt
Sandra," in fact, instead of "I don't know." I didn't mind at all.
It gave us a chance to share something. I got to know what he was
thinking about or writing about, and he got to know more about me.
It makes more sense to ask a person than to look in a book anyway, as
a first pass. And these days it makes more sense to google than to
look in a book. You get photos and facsimiles and sound files. If
you got to google and put in "define angst" (or whatever) you get
several dictionaries and a thesaurus all in one move, and you can cut
and paste the information you find.
-=-Third reason: Seeking answers aids in development of critical
thinking skills.-=-
Nothing improves and clarifies thinking like explaining something.
And critical thinking can be employed and shared by the parent
including, in the explanation, how she knows what it is she's
sharing, and if she knows more than one version or theory (depending
what kind of question). And then if the child wants to know more,
they can look it up together. It becomes a shared experience.
It's what unschooling is about.
A very short article I wrote in early 1998 is here:
http://sandradodd.com/aradicalthought
A RADICAL THOUGHT
Never tell a child "Go look it up." Parents, teachers, friends and
countrymen, how would you like it?
When a child wants to know why flowers have a scent, they want
someone to say "To attract bees" not "GO LOOK IT UP."
"Go look it up" tends to mean "I don't know" or "I know but I'm not
going to tell you." What's the advantage of that?
Either a child will opt NOT to look it up (and the trust in the
parent will erode a little) or he will, under duress, perform this
task which might be difficult for him, or might take so long that he
doesn't care anymore (and the trust in the parent will erode a little).
I'm NOT saying to discourage kids from looking things up. I never
said not to show kids how to look things up. I mean don't treat it
like something parents won't do, parents don't have to do, but that
kids do, or that kids have to do, because they are powerless kids.
Encyclopedias should be alluring, not forbidding. Dictionaries should
be a playland, not a dark, scary place you dart into for one thing
and slam shut behind you. If you believe they ARE fun, you should
look things up in front of your children, often, and with enthusiasm.
That will teach them how to use reference materials, and will make
them want to do so, because they will see it as something useful and
enjoyable that adults do. If you believe dictionaries and
encyclopedias ARE dark, scary and forbidding, why on EARTH would you
send your children there?
by Sandra Dodd
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
afraid to put it on the full list. That's okay.
Don't take offense that it will be discussed. That's what discussion
lists are for.
-=<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the
answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>-=-
I'll start at the top, saving the best for last.
I'm guessing the first was a typo/error. I'm guessing the writer
intended "they are more likely to seek out the answers for
themselves"--otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense.
But this...
"What will they do when I am no longer around? Ask another person??? "
That's just coldly illogical. What will your husband do when you're
no longer around? What will your children do for food when you're
not around? Do you want them to start finding solace and sustenance
from other people now? Or do you want to be there for them while
you're still alive?
-=-Second reason: I want them to RELY on their ability to find the
"right" answer for them. -=-
Perhaps they want to rely on you. Perhaps you could show them how to
look things up, and show them that it can be fun. Perhaps it's not
something that needs to be looked up. Maybe you already know the
answer and could share it.
When Keith and I were young, early 20's, he wasn't a good speller and
I didn't know the times tables up around and among 6, 7 and 8. We
made a deal that we would never shame the other or explain, just
spell or give a number. So I would yell across the house "What's 7
times 8? and he would yell back the answer. Or he would come and say
"How do you spell 'committee'?" and I would just spell it, nicely,
generously. So when we had kids it was easy to help them the same
way--NICELY.
My nephew used to call me and ask me all kinds of questions, if his
parents would say "I don't know." They got to saying "Call Aunt
Sandra," in fact, instead of "I don't know." I didn't mind at all.
It gave us a chance to share something. I got to know what he was
thinking about or writing about, and he got to know more about me.
It makes more sense to ask a person than to look in a book anyway, as
a first pass. And these days it makes more sense to google than to
look in a book. You get photos and facsimiles and sound files. If
you got to google and put in "define angst" (or whatever) you get
several dictionaries and a thesaurus all in one move, and you can cut
and paste the information you find.
-=-Third reason: Seeking answers aids in development of critical
thinking skills.-=-
Nothing improves and clarifies thinking like explaining something.
And critical thinking can be employed and shared by the parent
including, in the explanation, how she knows what it is she's
sharing, and if she knows more than one version or theory (depending
what kind of question). And then if the child wants to know more,
they can look it up together. It becomes a shared experience.
It's what unschooling is about.
A very short article I wrote in early 1998 is here:
http://sandradodd.com/aradicalthought
A RADICAL THOUGHT
Never tell a child "Go look it up." Parents, teachers, friends and
countrymen, how would you like it?
When a child wants to know why flowers have a scent, they want
someone to say "To attract bees" not "GO LOOK IT UP."
"Go look it up" tends to mean "I don't know" or "I know but I'm not
going to tell you." What's the advantage of that?
Either a child will opt NOT to look it up (and the trust in the
parent will erode a little) or he will, under duress, perform this
task which might be difficult for him, or might take so long that he
doesn't care anymore (and the trust in the parent will erode a little).
I'm NOT saying to discourage kids from looking things up. I never
said not to show kids how to look things up. I mean don't treat it
like something parents won't do, parents don't have to do, but that
kids do, or that kids have to do, because they are powerless kids.
Encyclopedias should be alluring, not forbidding. Dictionaries should
be a playland, not a dark, scary place you dart into for one thing
and slam shut behind you. If you believe they ARE fun, you should
look things up in front of your children, often, and with enthusiasm.
That will teach them how to use reference materials, and will make
them want to do so, because they will see it as something useful and
enjoyable that adults do. If you believe dictionaries and
encyclopedias ARE dark, scary and forbidding, why on EARTH would you
send your children there?
by Sandra Dodd
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> <<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the answerfor
> themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There areended up
> three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
> answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
> Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
> ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
> answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>
>
>
> I was told to "look it up" all the time when I was a kid. I often
> feeling frustrated, sad, angry, lonely and/or misunderstood *and* itoften
> made me lose the enthusiasm I had for the project I was working on.http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/erin_mckean_redefines_the_dictionary.\
html
<http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/erin_mckean_redefines_the_dictionary\
.html>
I don't make my kids look up information. I have always happily
provided the answers to their questions. They've seen me look things
up, so they know how to do it for themselves. My older daughter looks
things up for herself mostly, and my younger daughter relies on me or
her dad for answers.
I put that link up because I found it really fascinating how she
describes the making of dictionaries. After listening to that, I
started giving my kids definitions of words that they asked the meanings
of, from my own understanding, then I would look it up and see how it
compared and give them the dictionary definition as well.
What she says is that when someone is involved in compiling words and
meanings, they come to their answers and understanding of words based on
how they've been used in all kinds of sources. So, in that sense, how I
understand the meaning of a word, is perfectly valid, and then I can
expand on it based on how others have come to understand a word.
The way I see it, my kids could get a prepared answer on their own from
a dictionary, or they can have a more holistic version from all the
people around them that influence their thinking.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim H
<<When Keith and I were young, early 20's, he wasn't a good speller and
I didn't know the times tables up around and among 6, 7 and 8. We
made a deal that we would never shame the other or explain, just
spell or give a number. So I would yell across the house "What's 7
times 8? and he would yell back the answer. Or he would come and say
"How do you spell 'committee'?" and I would just spell it, nicely,
generously. So when we had kids it was easy to help them the same
way--NICELY.>>
I just wanted to say how lovely this is and that it brought tears to my eyes. I still feel uncomfortable about my lack of tables knowledge (especially in the 6,7's and 8's!) and adding up yet am a goodish speller.
I recently had a garage sale and I felt so much pressure just adding basic numbers up and giving change (especially when they were all lining up which was something I hadn't predicted would happen). It's something I've had issues with ever since primary school and I think it comes from being labelled as 'fantastic at English, bad at maths".
How lovely for you and Keith to come up with this lovely, lovely means of helping each other out. Out goes the shaming and with it, the boxing and labelling.
What a perfect example for how it must feel for our children to be free from those labels and shaming and just be given (kindly and lovingly) the answers.
Reading that, Sandra. has really made my day !
Kim H
I didn't know the times tables up around and among 6, 7 and 8. We
made a deal that we would never shame the other or explain, just
spell or give a number. So I would yell across the house "What's 7
times 8? and he would yell back the answer. Or he would come and say
"How do you spell 'committee'?" and I would just spell it, nicely,
generously. So when we had kids it was easy to help them the same
way--NICELY.>>
I just wanted to say how lovely this is and that it brought tears to my eyes. I still feel uncomfortable about my lack of tables knowledge (especially in the 6,7's and 8's!) and adding up yet am a goodish speller.
I recently had a garage sale and I felt so much pressure just adding basic numbers up and giving change (especially when they were all lining up which was something I hadn't predicted would happen). It's something I've had issues with ever since primary school and I think it comes from being labelled as 'fantastic at English, bad at maths".
How lovely for you and Keith to come up with this lovely, lovely means of helping each other out. Out goes the shaming and with it, the boxing and labelling.
What a perfect example for how it must feel for our children to be free from those labels and shaming and just be given (kindly and lovingly) the answers.
Reading that, Sandra. has really made my day !
Kim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Telling our kids the answers vs. having them figure it out themselves
First, a note to whoever wrote this offlist. I'm guessing you were
afraid to put it on the full list. That's okay.
Don't take offense that it will be discussed. That's what discussion
lists are for.
-=<<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the
answer for
themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
Ask another person??? Second reason: I want them to RELY on their
ability to find the "right" answer for them. Third reason: Seeking
answers aids in development of critical thinking skills.>>>-=-
I'll start at the top, saving the best for last.
I'm guessing the first was a typo/error. I'm guessing the writer
intended "they are more likely to seek out the answers for
themselves"--otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense.
But this...
"What will they do when I am no longer around? Ask another person??? "
That's just coldly illogical. What will your husband do when you're
no longer around? What will your children do for food when you're
not around? Do you want them to start finding solace and sustenance
from other people now? Or do you want to be there for them while
you're still alive?
-=-Second reason: I want them to RELY on their ability to find the
"right" answer for them. -=-
Perhaps they want to rely on you. Perhaps you could show them how to
look things up, and show them that it can be fun. Perhaps it's not
something that needs to be looked up. Maybe you already know the
answer and could share it.
When Keith and I were young, early 20's, he wasn't a good speller and
I didn't know the times tables up around and among 6, 7 and 8. We
made a deal that we would never shame the other or explain, just
spell or give a number. So I would yell across the house "What's 7
times 8? and he would yell back the answer. Or he would come and say
"How do you spell 'committee'?" and I would just spell it, nicely,
generously. So when we had kids it was easy to help them the same
way--NICELY.
My nephew used to call me and ask me all kinds of questions, if his
parents would say "I don't know." They got to saying "Call Aunt
Sandra," in fact, instead of "I don't know." I didn't mind at all.
It gave us a chance to share something. I got to know what he was
thinking about or writing about, and he got to know more about me.
It makes more sense to ask a person than to look in a book anyway, as
a first pass. And these days it makes more sense to google than to
look in a book. You get photos and facsimiles and sound files. If
you got to google and put in "define angst" (or whatever) you get
several dictionaries and a thesaurus all in one move, and you can cut
and paste the information you find.
-=-Third reason: Seeking answers aids in development of critical
thinking skills.-=-
Nothing improves and clarifies thinking like explaining something.
And critical thinking can be employed and shared by the parent
including, in the explanation, how she knows what it is she's
sharing, and if she knows more than one version or theory (depending
what kind of question). And then if the child wants to know more,
they can look it up together. It becomes a shared experience.
It's what unschooling is about.
A very short article I wrote in early 1998 is here:
http://sandradodd.com/aradicalthought
A RADICAL THOUGHT
Never tell a child "Go look it up." Parents, teachers, friends and
countrymen, how would you like it?
When a child wants to know why flowers have a scent, they want
someone to say "To attract bees" not "GO LOOK IT UP."
"Go look it up" tends to mean "I don't know" or "I know but I'm not
going to tell you." What's the advantage of that?
Either a child will opt NOT to look it up (and the trust in the
parent will erode a little) or he will, under duress, perform this
task which might be difficult for him, or might take so long that he
doesn't care anymore (and the trust in the parent will erode a little).
I'm NOT saying to discourage kids from looking things up. I never
said not to show kids how to look things up. I mean don't treat it
like something parents won't do, parents don't have to do, but that
kids do, or that kids have to do, because they are powerless kids.
Encyclopedias should be alluring, not forbidding. Dictionaries should
be a playland, not a dark, scary place you dart into for one thing
and slam shut behind you. If you believe they ARE fun, you should
look things up in front of your children, often, and with enthusiasm.
That will teach them how to use reference materials, and will make
them want to do so, because they will see it as something useful and
enjoyable that adults do. If you believe dictionaries and
encyclopedias ARE dark, scary and forbidding, why on EARTH would you
send your children there?
by Sandra Dodd
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin
This reminds me of something I used to do (up to about two days ago!).
Every time the kids did something I wanted them to "learn not to do"
like leave their socks around, not pick up all the wrapper from
something they opened, etc. I would call which ever kid was
"responsible" (often after a heated "who done it" discussion) and ask
them to remedy their "mistake" or pick up after themselves. The day was
a constant string of my nagging them about minutia. I would even prevent
others from doing it for them, "no! They'll never learn if you do it for
them." For some reason, I thought that this was a good method of
"teaching" them to be responsible for their stuff. What have they
"learned" after 5 years? Nothing. Nada. (We'll except not to listen when
I nag...). They still take socks and shoes off where ever and just
drop them. Cloths are found dropped where they stepped out of them.
Wrappers get left where ever something was opened, etc. (They actually
pick up after themselves quite a bit, but they just don't notice what
they are doing with clothes and shoes especially.)
You'd think I'd have "learned". This is not the way to "teach" the kids
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin
Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
Every time the kids did something I wanted them to "learn not to do"
like leave their socks around, not pick up all the wrapper from
something they opened, etc. I would call which ever kid was
"responsible" (often after a heated "who done it" discussion) and ask
them to remedy their "mistake" or pick up after themselves. The day was
a constant string of my nagging them about minutia. I would even prevent
others from doing it for them, "no! They'll never learn if you do it for
them." For some reason, I thought that this was a good method of
"teaching" them to be responsible for their stuff. What have they
"learned" after 5 years? Nothing. Nada. (We'll except not to listen when
I nag...). They still take socks and shoes off where ever and just
drop them. Cloths are found dropped where they stepped out of them.
Wrappers get left where ever something was opened, etc. (They actually
pick up after themselves quite a bit, but they just don't notice what
they are doing with clothes and shoes especially.)
You'd think I'd have "learned". This is not the way to "teach" the kids
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin
Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
> Here's part of an e-mail I received offlist from the "How to Screw it Up"
> thread that I thought I'd bring here with my response:
>
>
> <<<I tell my kids all the time to "go look it up" or find the answer for
> themselves, and I tell them WHY I want them to look it up. There are
> three reasons. First reason: they are less likely to seek out the
> answers for themselves. What will they do when I am no longer around?
> A
Robin
Jenny C wrote:
game that was supposed to teach her "reading skills". She likes it
because it's set in a spooky haunted house. One of the tasks involved
building sentences where the squares are labeled with the kind of word
(verb, subject, direct object, adverb, etc.). She kept saying, "what's a
subject?" and I tried explaining what kind of word they were looking
for. This frustrated her. "No, is it 'turtles' or 'ate' or what?" She
wanted me to "give her the answer" (my internal dialog). I finally
realized that telling her which of the choices would work in the game
would bring a lot more joy than my making her think about what kind of
words were "subjects" and figuring out which of the choices fit that
category. I squelched my pangs of "she's missing the whole (educational)
point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
least she'll get something by osmosis." (I think of my thinking, "at
least she's learning something," as unschooling training wheels.
Thoughts that slave my old fears/way of thinking that I expect to grow
out of as I become less newbie at this).
Am I on the right track?
Robin
>I ran into this today. The dsgd (dear step granddaughter?) was playing a
>>
> I don't make my kids look up information. I have always happily
> provided the answers to their questions. They've seen me look things
>
game that was supposed to teach her "reading skills". She likes it
because it's set in a spooky haunted house. One of the tasks involved
building sentences where the squares are labeled with the kind of word
(verb, subject, direct object, adverb, etc.). She kept saying, "what's a
subject?" and I tried explaining what kind of word they were looking
for. This frustrated her. "No, is it 'turtles' or 'ate' or what?" She
wanted me to "give her the answer" (my internal dialog). I finally
realized that telling her which of the choices would work in the game
would bring a lot more joy than my making her think about what kind of
words were "subjects" and figuring out which of the choices fit that
category. I squelched my pangs of "she's missing the whole (educational)
point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
least she'll get something by osmosis." (I think of my thinking, "at
least she's learning something," as unschooling training wheels.
Thoughts that slave my old fears/way of thinking that I expect to grow
out of as I become less newbie at this).
Am I on the right track?
Robin
Sandra Dodd
-=-. She kept saying, "what's a
subject?" and I tried explaining what kind of word they were looking
for. This frustrated her. -=-
No doubt. Instead of explaining what kind of word, you could've said
"Who's the star of the sentence" or "What's doing something or
thinking something or being something?"
-=-I squelched my pangs of "she's missing the whole (educational)
point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
least she'll get something by osmosis."-=-
Could you have stopped what you were doing and played with her? By
your coming up with fun and funny suggestions, she would've figured
it out easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
subject?" and I tried explaining what kind of word they were looking
for. This frustrated her. -=-
No doubt. Instead of explaining what kind of word, you could've said
"Who's the star of the sentence" or "What's doing something or
thinking something or being something?"
-=-I squelched my pangs of "she's missing the whole (educational)
point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
least she'll get something by osmosis."-=-
Could you have stopped what you were doing and played with her? By
your coming up with fun and funny suggestions, she would've figured
it out easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
<<<You'd think I'd have "learned". This is not the way to "teach" the kids
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin>>>
what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin>>>
what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What have they
"learned" after 5 years? Nothing. Nada. (We'll except not to listen when
I nag...). They still take socks and shoes off where ever and just
drop them.-=-
I can't begin to express to you how much better your lives would all
be if you could go back five years and just pick those things up for
them.
http://sandradodd.com/chores
In the past two days I've had teens offer me food, offer to take my
dirty dishes up to the kitchen, offer to get me something when they
were going out...
It was from other people on this list (or one or another that came
before it) that I really let go of all my expectations about "chores"
and getting help. It works on the same principles as other aspects
of unschooling and mindful parenting, though. It has to do with
choices and respect and generosity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"learned" after 5 years? Nothing. Nada. (We'll except not to listen when
I nag...). They still take socks and shoes off where ever and just
drop them.-=-
I can't begin to express to you how much better your lives would all
be if you could go back five years and just pick those things up for
them.
http://sandradodd.com/chores
In the past two days I've had teens offer me food, offer to take my
dirty dishes up to the kitchen, offer to get me something when they
were going out...
It was from other people on this list (or one or another that came
before it) that I really let go of all my expectations about "chores"
and getting help. It works on the same principles as other aspects
of unschooling and mindful parenting, though. It has to do with
choices and respect and generosity.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
I can't begin to express to you how much better your lives would all
be if you could go back five years and just pick those things up for
them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be if you could go back five years and just pick those things up for
them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is my personal experience. Maybe someone will get something positive from it and if not Ill still enjoy a short break from cleaning <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
Sorry about that partial e-mail ...Alyssa decided to help mommy and hit send and Im dealing with a tantruming 6 year old so......gotta finish it later
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-<<<You'd think I'd have "learned". This is not the way to "teach"
the kids
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin>>>
-=-what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?-=-
Do you want the socks picked up, or do you want the kids to pick up
the socks?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the kids
anything (except that I'm a nag).
Robin>>>
-=-what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?-=-
Do you want the socks picked up, or do you want the kids to pick up
the socks?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robin wrote:
your behavior. My husband had a hard time with this. He'd see me
picking up the kids' shoes or other "droppings" and he'd say, "They
should pick that up for themselves, you should be doing it for them."
Interestingly, you know what that made ME want to do? He would leave
his teacup sitting next to his chair almost every evening and, in the
past, I'd picked it up in the morning and rinsed it and put it into
the dishwasher. For years. He also often left a little bowl of
sunflower seed shells and I'd put those in the compost bucket and
rinse the dish and put it into the dishwasher.
When he bugged me a lot not to pick up after the kids - I stopped
picking up after HIM! <G> There would sometimes be four or five
teacups sitting there by his chair. Sometimes the dog would get into
his sunflower seed shells and make a mess and I'd leave that too. I
wasn't doing this out of spite - but just somehow, without realizing
it, I wasn't getting around to taking care of it. It hit me like a ton
of bricks, one day, that I was doing this. So, I started cleaning up
beside his chair again and, next time he said something about cleaning
up after the kids I just said, "You know - we all clean up after each
other and I think that's nice. I clean up your stuff from beside your
chair every morning and I'm happy to do it. You empty the bathroom
trash even though most of the trash in it isn't even yours, and I
really appreciate that. I think we're fine - the kids are learning
that we all help each other out, don't you think?" He grumbled a
little more - using the usual expressions - "They need to learn we're
not their servants," and stuff like that. But I let it slide because I
know that he does that - he grumbles a little, but then he goes off
and thinks about what I said and often it sinks in. He's logical, if
it makes sense, he'll get it - I don't try to argue him into things
(anymore).
Anyway, the more we bug the kids to pick up their own stuff, the more
focused they get on what's "theirs" and what isn't. Yesterday I asked
Roxana if she'd mind sweeping the bathroom floor - something had
spilled. She said she'd do it (I was leaving, she was staying home.)
Later, I thanked her and she said something about not having even been
in that bathroom for months and I suddenly realized - she doesn't even
use that bathroom. But still she swept up for me, just to be nice. If
I'd been saying, "Pick up your own shoes, I'm not doing it for you,
they're YOURS," to her, she'd have said, "Sweep your own bathroom, it
is YOURS not MINE."
What do the kids learn when you force them to pick up their own stuff
and refuse to do it for them? They learn to be ungenerous with their
time, and unhelpful (with other people's stuff). They learn to be more
selfish, not more responsible.
-pam
> They'll never learn if you do it forThey'll learn. Not what you want them to learn, but they'll learn from
> them."
your behavior. My husband had a hard time with this. He'd see me
picking up the kids' shoes or other "droppings" and he'd say, "They
should pick that up for themselves, you should be doing it for them."
Interestingly, you know what that made ME want to do? He would leave
his teacup sitting next to his chair almost every evening and, in the
past, I'd picked it up in the morning and rinsed it and put it into
the dishwasher. For years. He also often left a little bowl of
sunflower seed shells and I'd put those in the compost bucket and
rinse the dish and put it into the dishwasher.
When he bugged me a lot not to pick up after the kids - I stopped
picking up after HIM! <G> There would sometimes be four or five
teacups sitting there by his chair. Sometimes the dog would get into
his sunflower seed shells and make a mess and I'd leave that too. I
wasn't doing this out of spite - but just somehow, without realizing
it, I wasn't getting around to taking care of it. It hit me like a ton
of bricks, one day, that I was doing this. So, I started cleaning up
beside his chair again and, next time he said something about cleaning
up after the kids I just said, "You know - we all clean up after each
other and I think that's nice. I clean up your stuff from beside your
chair every morning and I'm happy to do it. You empty the bathroom
trash even though most of the trash in it isn't even yours, and I
really appreciate that. I think we're fine - the kids are learning
that we all help each other out, don't you think?" He grumbled a
little more - using the usual expressions - "They need to learn we're
not their servants," and stuff like that. But I let it slide because I
know that he does that - he grumbles a little, but then he goes off
and thinks about what I said and often it sinks in. He's logical, if
it makes sense, he'll get it - I don't try to argue him into things
(anymore).
Anyway, the more we bug the kids to pick up their own stuff, the more
focused they get on what's "theirs" and what isn't. Yesterday I asked
Roxana if she'd mind sweeping the bathroom floor - something had
spilled. She said she'd do it (I was leaving, she was staying home.)
Later, I thanked her and she said something about not having even been
in that bathroom for months and I suddenly realized - she doesn't even
use that bathroom. But still she swept up for me, just to be nice. If
I'd been saying, "Pick up your own shoes, I'm not doing it for you,
they're YOURS," to her, she'd have said, "Sweep your own bathroom, it
is YOURS not MINE."
What do the kids learn when you force them to pick up their own stuff
and refuse to do it for them? They learn to be ungenerous with their
time, and unhelpful (with other people's stuff). They learn to be more
selfish, not more responsible.
-pam
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...>
wrote:
they will probably pick them up eventually but the more you do it for
them the more likely they are to do it
I thought the concept crazy until one day we were rushing out the door
and the older one accidently tripped and the legos spilled and the
little one insisted on cleaning them up before we left- it was a real
eye opener that they saw ME cleaning up after them and they could do it
too
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>kids
> <<<You'd think I'd have "learned". This is not the way to "teach" the
> anything (except that I'm a nag).you pick them up and pick them up and pick them up and pick them up-
>
> Robin>>>
>
> what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?
>
they will probably pick them up eventually but the more you do it for
them the more likely they are to do it
I thought the concept crazy until one day we were rushing out the door
and the older one accidently tripped and the legos spilled and the
little one insisted on cleaning them up before we left- it was a real
eye opener that they saw ME cleaning up after them and they could do it
too
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Robin wrote:
We don't usually say stuff like that, here on this list. Don't look to
us for being particularly reassuring.
We're more likely to be focused on the next step for you.
The next step is to stop worrying whether something is educational or
not - that just simply won't be a consideration once you realize that
learning truly happens, as you said, by osmosis, all the time.
-pam
> she's missing the whole (educational)Sure - you're fine. (Feel better? <G>)
> point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
> least she'll get something by osmosis." (I think of my thinking, "at
> least she's learning something," as unschooling training wheels.
> Thoughts that slave my old fears/way of thinking that I expect to grow
> out of as I become less newbie at this).
>
> Am I on the right track?
We don't usually say stuff like that, here on this list. Don't look to
us for being particularly reassuring.
We're more likely to be focused on the next step for you.
The next step is to stop worrying whether something is educational or
not - that just simply won't be a consideration once you realize that
learning truly happens, as you said, by osmosis, all the time.
-pam
barbara emrich
Great post! I really think what you've pointed out is true. Kids and
adults are part of a larger group within a family---and wherever they move
onto after that.
Barb
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:
adults are part of a larger group within a family---and wherever they move
onto after that.
Barb
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robin wrote:
>
> > They'll never learn if you do it for
> > them."
>
> They'll learn. Not what you want them to learn, but they'll learn from
> your behavior. My husband had a hard time with this. He'd see me
> picking up the kids' shoes or other "droppings" and he'd say, "They
> should pick that up for themselves, you should be doing it for them."
>
> Interestingly, you know what that made ME want to do? He would leave
> his teacup sitting next to his chair almost every evening and, in the
> past, I'd picked it up in the morning and rinsed it and put it into
> the dishwasher. For years. He also often left a little bowl of
> sunflower seed shells and I'd put those in the compost bucket and
> rinse the dish and put it into the dishwasher.
>
> When he bugged me a lot not to pick up after the kids - I stopped
> picking up after HIM! <G> There would sometimes be four or five
> teacups sitting there by his chair. Sometimes the dog would get into
> his sunflower seed shells and make a mess and I'd leave that too. I
> wasn't doing this out of spite - but just somehow, without realizing
> it, I wasn't getting around to taking care of it. It hit me like a ton
> of bricks, one day, that I was doing this. So, I started cleaning up
> beside his chair again and, next time he said something about cleaning
> up after the kids I just said, "You know - we all clean up after each
> other and I think that's nice. I clean up your stuff from beside your
> chair every morning and I'm happy to do it. You empty the bathroom
> trash even though most of the trash in it isn't even yours, and I
> really appreciate that. I think we're fine - the kids are learning
> that we all help each other out, don't you think?" He grumbled a
> little more - using the usual expressions - "They need to learn we're
> not their servants," and stuff like that. But I let it slide because I
> know that he does that - he grumbles a little, but then he goes off
> and thinks about what I said and often it sinks in. He's logical, if
> it makes sense, he'll get it - I don't try to argue him into things
> (anymore).
>
> Anyway, the more we bug the kids to pick up their own stuff, the more
> focused they get on what's "theirs" and what isn't. Yesterday I asked
> Roxana if she'd mind sweeping the bathroom floor - something had
> spilled. She said she'd do it (I was leaving, she was staying home.)
> Later, I thanked her and she said something about not having even been
> in that bathroom for months and I suddenly realized - she doesn't even
> use that bathroom. But still she swept up for me, just to be nice. If
> I'd been saying, "Pick up your own shoes, I'm not doing it for you,
> they're YOURS," to her, she'd have said, "Sweep your own bathroom, it
> is YOURS not MINE."
>
> What do the kids learn when you force them to pick up their own stuff
> and refuse to do it for them? They learn to be ungenerous with their
> time, and unhelpful (with other people's stuff). They learn to be more
> selfish, not more responsible.
>
> -pam
>
>
Nicole Willoughby
Before I had kids I was pretty OCD about certain things being perfectly clean in my house. Then I had 3 kids ....one of them happens to be autistic, nonverbal and Oh does he love to make messes <g>.
I spent the longest time felling so overwhelmed and felt I had to make my kids pitch in. They could at least get *their* stuff cleaned up ...I was having to clean so much.
One day I realized that while I dont enjoy other people having negative opinions when they come to my trashy house my kids emotional well being was far more important. I also realized that to me having kids who remember a mom that ( insert fun activity here ) was far more important than letting myself get spazed out about a messy house.
So I gave myself permission to let go , stopped demanding, and for a while didnt even ask my kids to do anything. I did things around my house that made life easier for me ..like the dishes cause Im not a friend of bugs :) but I took lots of deep breathed and learned to stop stressing about everything.
Time went by where I was the only one doing any housework and I had to work hard to choose hapiness and not feel resentful.
Then my kids did start doing things without being asked. Nate made a big mess in his room smearing stuff on the walls and in the carpet. I got in there and started shampooing the carpet and Alyssa came and asked if she could clean the walls. I got her a spray bottle then Courtney went and found another a few minutes later and started helping. She got tired of the walls and offered to run the shampooer so we switched for a while.
Grandma is coming down tomorrow and yesterday Courtney asked if Id help her clean their room up. Their bikes , scooters and wagons have been out in the yard for a few days now. No one reminded them or asked them to but a few minutes ago when it started to rain they ran outside and pulled them all up under the porch real quick.
Now their shoes? They still get left wherever and it was a pain when we had to take dad to work and didnt have time to search the house for shoes. I took on old pair for each kid and tossed them in the back of the van so if we needed them we'd have shoes.
Nicole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I spent the longest time felling so overwhelmed and felt I had to make my kids pitch in. They could at least get *their* stuff cleaned up ...I was having to clean so much.
One day I realized that while I dont enjoy other people having negative opinions when they come to my trashy house my kids emotional well being was far more important. I also realized that to me having kids who remember a mom that ( insert fun activity here ) was far more important than letting myself get spazed out about a messy house.
So I gave myself permission to let go , stopped demanding, and for a while didnt even ask my kids to do anything. I did things around my house that made life easier for me ..like the dishes cause Im not a friend of bugs :) but I took lots of deep breathed and learned to stop stressing about everything.
Time went by where I was the only one doing any housework and I had to work hard to choose hapiness and not feel resentful.
Then my kids did start doing things without being asked. Nate made a big mess in his room smearing stuff on the walls and in the carpet. I got in there and started shampooing the carpet and Alyssa came and asked if she could clean the walls. I got her a spray bottle then Courtney went and found another a few minutes later and started helping. She got tired of the walls and offered to run the shampooer so we switched for a while.
Grandma is coming down tomorrow and yesterday Courtney asked if Id help her clean their room up. Their bikes , scooters and wagons have been out in the yard for a few days now. No one reminded them or asked them to but a few minutes ago when it started to rain they ran outside and pulled them all up under the porch real quick.
Now their shoes? They still get left wherever and it was a pain when we had to take dad to work and didnt have time to search the house for shoes. I took on old pair for each kid and tossed them in the back of the van so if we needed them we'd have shoes.
Nicole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Arp Laszlo
I think about one of our most inspiring local unschoolers (the late Lisa
Heyman) and she addressed this topic one of the first times we met. My
recollection is hazy, but her wisdom was to do it with a smile. Pick up
the stuff the kids don't and just do it with a smile. Frankly, I found
it easier to just pick the stuff up than to get into an argument about
it where no one feels good afterward. Our son is older now, and he
doesn't quite get one of the main reasons we've always given (we like it
clean because it make us feel better about our home), and that's because
it's not something he can relate to. otoh, our house is on the market
and he does understand why the house needs to be clean - mainly because
he cares about the outcome (moving to Costa Rica). Doesn't mean he
really helps keep it clean 24/7, but he has been helping now from time
to time.
Arp
www.unschoold.com | www.tinygrass.com
Arp: the Unschooled Vagabond
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/unschooledvagabond/%7E6/1>
barbara emrich wrote:
Heyman) and she addressed this topic one of the first times we met. My
recollection is hazy, but her wisdom was to do it with a smile. Pick up
the stuff the kids don't and just do it with a smile. Frankly, I found
it easier to just pick the stuff up than to get into an argument about
it where no one feels good afterward. Our son is older now, and he
doesn't quite get one of the main reasons we've always given (we like it
clean because it make us feel better about our home), and that's because
it's not something he can relate to. otoh, our house is on the market
and he does understand why the house needs to be clean - mainly because
he cares about the outcome (moving to Costa Rica). Doesn't mean he
really helps keep it clean 24/7, but he has been helping now from time
to time.
Arp
www.unschoold.com | www.tinygrass.com
Arp: the Unschooled Vagabond
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/unschooledvagabond/%7E6/1>
barbara emrich wrote:
>
> Great post! I really think what you've pointed out is true. Kids and
> adults are part of a larger group within a family---and wherever they move
> onto after that.
> Barb
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...
> <mailto:pamsoroosh%40mac.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robin wrote:
> >
> > > They'll never learn if you do it for
> > > them."
> >
> > They'll learn. Not what you want them to learn, but they'll learn from
> > your behavior. My husband had a hard time with this. He'd see me
> > picking up the kids' shoes or other "droppings" and he'd say, "They
> > should pick that up for themselves, you should be doing it for them."
> >
> > Interestingly, you know what that made ME want to do? He would leave
> > his teacup sitting next to his chair almost every evening and, in the
> > past, I'd picked it up in the morning and rinsed it and put it into
> > the dishwasher. For years. He also often left a little bowl of
> > sunflower seed shells and I'd put those in the compost bucket and
> > rinse the dish and put it into the dishwasher.
> >
> > When he bugged me a lot not to pick up after the kids - I stopped
> > picking up after HIM! <G> There would sometimes be four or five
> > teacups sitting there by his chair. Sometimes the dog would get into
> > his sunflower seed shells and make a mess and I'd leave that too. I
> > wasn't doing this out of spite - but just somehow, without realizing
> > it, I wasn't getting around to taking care of it. It hit me like a ton
> > of bricks, one day, that I was doing this. So, I started cleaning up
> > beside his chair again and, next time he said something about cleaning
> > up after the kids I just said, "You know - we all clean up after each
> > other and I think that's nice. I clean up your stuff from beside your
> > chair every morning and I'm happy to do it. You empty the bathroom
> > trash even though most of the trash in it isn't even yours, and I
> > really appreciate that. I think we're fine - the kids are learning
> > that we all help each other out, don't you think?" He grumbled a
> > little more - using the usual expressions - "They need to learn we're
> > not their servants," and stuff like that. But I let it slide because I
> > know that he does that - he grumbles a little, but then he goes off
> > and thinks about what I said and often it sinks in. He's logical, if
> > it makes sense, he'll get it - I don't try to argue him into things
> > (anymore).
> >
> > Anyway, the more we bug the kids to pick up their own stuff, the more
> > focused they get on what's "theirs" and what isn't. Yesterday I asked
> > Roxana if she'd mind sweeping the bathroom floor - something had
> > spilled. She said she'd do it (I was leaving, she was staying home.)
> > Later, I thanked her and she said something about not having even been
> > in that bathroom for months and I suddenly realized - she doesn't even
> > use that bathroom. But still she swept up for me, just to be nice. If
> > I'd been saying, "Pick up your own shoes, I'm not doing it for you,
> > they're YOURS," to her, she'd have said, "Sweep your own bathroom, it
> > is YOURS not MINE."
> >
> > What do the kids learn when you force them to pick up their own stuff
> > and refuse to do it for them? They learn to be ungenerous with their
> > time, and unhelpful (with other people's stuff). They learn to be more
> > selfish, not more responsible.
> >
> > -pam
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
barbara emrich
Arp-
Funny thing. Our house is finally *off* the market, we're moving out this
week, have to be out in 3 days. The house has gone from spotless (mommy
running around all day preparing it for showings, mumbling things under her
breath, stressed out for 4 weeks) to crazy messy, as everything we own has
spilled from the cupboards onto the floors, people are tripping over things,
hard to maneuver around. My six year old said today "AHH! I hate a messy
house!" as she was trying to reach something in the kitchen. I just said
"me too" and we smiled at each other. We're in it together. Not an us
against them thing. They might not get it, the moment of explaining and
reasoning with them, but they get it in a practical way, if we (I) shut up
and let them. Hope your house sells quickly and painlessly!
Barb
Funny thing. Our house is finally *off* the market, we're moving out this
week, have to be out in 3 days. The house has gone from spotless (mommy
running around all day preparing it for showings, mumbling things under her
breath, stressed out for 4 weeks) to crazy messy, as everything we own has
spilled from the cupboards onto the floors, people are tripping over things,
hard to maneuver around. My six year old said today "AHH! I hate a messy
house!" as she was trying to reach something in the kitchen. I just said
"me too" and we smiled at each other. We're in it together. Not an us
against them thing. They might not get it, the moment of explaining and
reasoning with them, but they get it in a practical way, if we (I) shut up
and let them. Hope your house sells quickly and painlessly!
Barb
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Arp Laszlo <arphaus@...> wrote:
> I think about one of our most inspiring local unschoolers (the late Lisa
>
> Heyman) and she addressed this topic one of the first times we met. My
> recollection is hazy, but her wisdom was to do it with a smile. Pick up
> the stuff the kids don't and just do it with a smile. Frankly, I found
> it easier to just pick the stuff up than to get into an argument about
> it where no one feels good afterward. Our son is older now, and he
> doesn't quite get one of the main reasons we've always given (we like it
> clean because it make us feel better about our home), and that's because
> it's not something he can relate to. otoh, our house is on the market
> and he does understand why the house needs to be clean - mainly because
> he cares about the outcome (moving to Costa Rica). Doesn't mean he
> really helps keep it clean 24/7, but he has been helping now from time
> to time.
>
> Arp
>
> www.unschoold.com | www.tinygrass.com
> Arp: the Unschooled Vagabond
> <http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/unschooledvagabond/%7E6/1>
>
>
> barbara emrich wrote:
> >
> > Great post! I really think what you've pointed out is true. Kids and
> > adults are part of a larger group within a family---and wherever they
> move
> > onto after that.
> > Barb
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...<pamsoroosh%40mac.com>
> > <mailto:pamsoroosh%40mac.com <pamsoroosh%2540mac.com>>>
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Robin wrote:
> > >
> > > > They'll never learn if you do it for
> > > > them."
> > >
> > > They'll learn. Not what you want them to learn, but they'll learn from
> > > your behavior. My husband had a hard time with this. He'd see me
> > > picking up the kids' shoes or other "droppings" and he'd say, "They
> > > should pick that up for themselves, you should be doing it for them."
> > >
> > > Interestingly, you know what that made ME want to do? He would leave
> > > his teacup sitting next to his chair almost every evening and, in the
> > > past, I'd picked it up in the morning and rinsed it and put it into
> > > the dishwasher. For years. He also often left a little bowl of
> > > sunflower seed shells and I'd put those in the compost bucket and
> > > rinse the dish and put it into the dishwasher.
> > >
> > > When he bugged me a lot not to pick up after the kids - I stopped
> > > picking up after HIM! <G> There would sometimes be four or five
> > > teacups sitting there by his chair. Sometimes the dog would get into
> > > his sunflower seed shells and make a mess and I'd leave that too. I
> > > wasn't doing this out of spite - but just somehow, without realizing
> > > it, I wasn't getting around to taking care of it. It hit me like a ton
> > > of bricks, one day, that I was doing this. So, I started cleaning up
> > > beside his chair again and, next time he said something about cleaning
> > > up after the kids I just said, "You know - we all clean up after each
> > > other and I think that's nice. I clean up your stuff from beside your
> > > chair every morning and I'm happy to do it. You empty the bathroom
> > > trash even though most of the trash in it isn't even yours, and I
> > > really appreciate that. I think we're fine - the kids are learning
> > > that we all help each other out, don't you think?" He grumbled a
> > > little more - using the usual expressions - "They need to learn we're
> > > not their servants," and stuff like that. But I let it slide because I
> > > know that he does that - he grumbles a little, but then he goes off
> > > and thinks about what I said and often it sinks in. He's logical, if
> > > it makes sense, he'll get it - I don't try to argue him into things
> > > (anymore).
> > >
> > > Anyway, the more we bug the kids to pick up their own stuff, the more
> > > focused they get on what's "theirs" and what isn't. Yesterday I asked
> > > Roxana if she'd mind sweeping the bathroom floor - something had
> > > spilled. She said she'd do it (I was leaving, she was staying home.)
> > > Later, I thanked her and she said something about not having even been
> > > in that bathroom for months and I suddenly realized - she doesn't even
> > > use that bathroom. But still she swept up for me, just to be nice. If
> > > I'd been saying, "Pick up your own shoes, I'm not doing it for you,
> > > they're YOURS," to her, she'd have said, "Sweep your own bathroom, it
> > > is YOURS not MINE."
> > >
> > > What do the kids learn when you force them to pick up their own stuff
> > > and refuse to do it for them? They learn to be ungenerous with their
> > > time, and unhelpful (with other people's stuff). They learn to be more
> > > selfish, not more responsible.
> > >
> > > -pam
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 9, 2008, at 9:46 PM, Arp Laszlo wrote:
have to?" and mom answers with either why *she* wants to or with some
canned response that was said to her. It's said with the expectation
a light bulb will go on and the child will say "Oh, of course! Let me
get right on that." (Why the light bulb doesn't go on for the mom
that the technique doesn't work when it's never worked in the past I
don't know ;-)
Lots more helpful is -- to first not be making them! ;-) -- but when
they ask, share with them why *you* like it done but accept that your
reason may not be important to them yet (or ever). Share reasons why
others might do it. Let the information go in and swirl around. Let
them play with the idea or set it aside. But ideas can't swirl around
if they're being used as a rope to bind them to your way. They can't
decide what's important to them if they don't have the choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Our son is older now, and heThis is a good point. Millions of children ask each day "Why do I
> doesn't quite get one of the main reasons we've always given (we
> like it
> clean because it make us feel better about our home), and that's
> because
> it's not something he can relate to.
have to?" and mom answers with either why *she* wants to or with some
canned response that was said to her. It's said with the expectation
a light bulb will go on and the child will say "Oh, of course! Let me
get right on that." (Why the light bulb doesn't go on for the mom
that the technique doesn't work when it's never worked in the past I
don't know ;-)
Lots more helpful is -- to first not be making them! ;-) -- but when
they ask, share with them why *you* like it done but accept that your
reason may not be important to them yet (or ever). Share reasons why
others might do it. Let the information go in and swirl around. Let
them play with the idea or set it aside. But ideas can't swirl around
if they're being used as a rope to bind them to your way. They can't
decide what's important to them if they don't have the choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> what IS the way to get them to pick up the socks?Role-modeling! I pick up after the kids without nagging them. I even
ask their permission in some cases, like if I'm doing laundry and I
need to collect clothes from their rooms that didn't get put into the
hampers. I'll say, "I'm doing laundry and I'm looking for dirty
clothes. May I wash these?"
My youngest daugher, Allison (10), has a habit of leaving her shoes
all over the living room and dining room. She'll have 3 or 4 pairs
laying about that we trip over. I usually pick them up for her but
sometimes I'll ask if she'd like to help. We keep all our shoes in a
hinged-chest near the door. It's rather fun to toss the shoes across
the room into the box! :)
Beth M.
Robin
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
mother...whatever I did, there was always something I could do better! I
noticed myself doing that with my kids awhile back. But even noticing I
couldn't always stop (though I tried, even before realizing that
unshcooling is what makes sense for us). But you guys aren't my mother
and I truly appreciate suggestions for how I can be better and better.
It does help to have somewhere to talk about the process we're going
through, though. Just writing things out helps me see stuff I wouldn't
have seen otherwise. Yesterday, I was with the youngest most of the
day--her siblings were overnighting at friends (today is the opposite).
We both felt a little down and bluesy (probably because we're both short
on sleep from the new "no bedtime" <g>). But there's also emotionally
upsetting stuff going on right now (or the ongoing upsetting situation
is in a "flare up"). I helped her find stuff to do but I just didn't
feel very fun to be around. We did the newspaper logs thing but my
attitude was more like it was a chore than a fun project.
So my new level of understanding is that I first need to find stuff that
*I* enjoy doing and is fun for me that I can do with the kids. Not that
newspaper logs wouldn't be fun for me if I let them be fun but I wanted
to take it over and do what I wanted. And we were short on tape and
newspaper. So today I think I'll try to buy enough newspaper and tape so
that there's enough for me to play and enjoy the way I want and whatever
kid wants to join in can join in with mine or make their own or
something like. Making it all "I'll help you with your project" sapped
all the fun out of it for me yesterday and left her frustrated when what
she wanted to do didn't "work" (her word). The structure she chose to
build was wobbly and unstable and some of the joins tore apart from lack
of tape but my suggestions that she add tape, etc had been met with
resistance, so I kept them to a minimum--she wanted to "do her own
thing" so I just tried to be supportive (literally by holding up pieces
she was joining, etc.). We're still very much de-schooling and I'm not
the most trustworthy yet (I'm bossy and I lecture and I always know a
better way to do *everything*--at least that's the me they are used to).
So I suggested we put it up for later. I'm hoping to get the chance to
make supplies more abundant, and maybe take it up again when there's
more kids around and see if I can't let *myself* have some fun.
BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun." Never
did achieve it back then ;)
Robin
> On Jul 8, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Robin wrote:Phew! Thank you. I needed that <VBG>
>
>> she's missing the whole (educational)
>> point of the game," but allowed myself to think (but not say), "at
>> least she'll get something by osmosis." (I think of my thinking, "at
>> least she's learning something," as unschooling training wheels.
>> Thoughts that slave my old fears/way of thinking that I expect to grow
>> out of as I become less newbie at this).
>>
>> Am I on the right track?
>
> Sure - you're fine. (Feel better? <G>)
>
> We don't usually say stuff like that, here on this list. Don't look toThat's how I am with my kids! (used to be) that's sooo my
> us for being particularly reassuring.
>
> We're more likely to be focused on the next step for you.
>
> The next step is to stop worrying whether something is educational or
> not - that just simply won't be a consideration once you realize that
> learning truly happens, as you said, by osmosis, all the time.
>
mother...whatever I did, there was always something I could do better! I
noticed myself doing that with my kids awhile back. But even noticing I
couldn't always stop (though I tried, even before realizing that
unshcooling is what makes sense for us). But you guys aren't my mother
and I truly appreciate suggestions for how I can be better and better.
It does help to have somewhere to talk about the process we're going
through, though. Just writing things out helps me see stuff I wouldn't
have seen otherwise. Yesterday, I was with the youngest most of the
day--her siblings were overnighting at friends (today is the opposite).
We both felt a little down and bluesy (probably because we're both short
on sleep from the new "no bedtime" <g>). But there's also emotionally
upsetting stuff going on right now (or the ongoing upsetting situation
is in a "flare up"). I helped her find stuff to do but I just didn't
feel very fun to be around. We did the newspaper logs thing but my
attitude was more like it was a chore than a fun project.
So my new level of understanding is that I first need to find stuff that
*I* enjoy doing and is fun for me that I can do with the kids. Not that
newspaper logs wouldn't be fun for me if I let them be fun but I wanted
to take it over and do what I wanted. And we were short on tape and
newspaper. So today I think I'll try to buy enough newspaper and tape so
that there's enough for me to play and enjoy the way I want and whatever
kid wants to join in can join in with mine or make their own or
something like. Making it all "I'll help you with your project" sapped
all the fun out of it for me yesterday and left her frustrated when what
she wanted to do didn't "work" (her word). The structure she chose to
build was wobbly and unstable and some of the joins tore apart from lack
of tape but my suggestions that she add tape, etc had been met with
resistance, so I kept them to a minimum--she wanted to "do her own
thing" so I just tried to be supportive (literally by holding up pieces
she was joining, etc.). We're still very much de-schooling and I'm not
the most trustworthy yet (I'm bossy and I lecture and I always know a
better way to do *everything*--at least that's the me they are used to).
So I suggested we put it up for later. I'm hoping to get the chance to
make supplies more abundant, and maybe take it up again when there's
more kids around and see if I can't let *myself* have some fun.
BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun." Never
did achieve it back then ;)
Robin
Robin
Arp Laszlo wrote:
least ankle deep if not knee deep--he doesn't like not being able to
find things and that things get stepped on and broken, but he feels
emotionally more comfortable in disarray (probably because that's the
way its always been--not just in his room but in the whole house to some
degree--and that's the way the kids' room was the last time he lived
with his mother).
Not that long ago, he even claimed he preferred wearing dirty socks
(when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble they
wouldn't get clean...) but more recently he's started complaining that
he has no clean socks. We bought him a new pack to go to camp with, but
only 3 pair came home. I honestly will have a hard time keeping him in
clean socks if I don't have some cooperation from him. (His cousin was
the worst, though, 6 months after he was no longer even living at our
house I'd still find one of his socks every time a moved something in a
corner or under a chair! The boy must have actively thrown his socks in
random directions every time he took them off.) Maybe we'll just budget
a pack of socks for the boy every week or two until we're more balanced?
Otherwise he'll just have to tolerate wearing dirty socks (which I can't
stand myself, I hate dirty socks the most, I think).
Robin
> Our son is older now, and heThe boy in our house feels the same way. He likes his room to be at
> doesn't quite get one of the main reasons we've always given (we like it
> clean because it make us feel better about our home), and that's because
> it's not something he can relate to.
least ankle deep if not knee deep--he doesn't like not being able to
find things and that things get stepped on and broken, but he feels
emotionally more comfortable in disarray (probably because that's the
way its always been--not just in his room but in the whole house to some
degree--and that's the way the kids' room was the last time he lived
with his mother).
Not that long ago, he even claimed he preferred wearing dirty socks
(when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble they
wouldn't get clean...) but more recently he's started complaining that
he has no clean socks. We bought him a new pack to go to camp with, but
only 3 pair came home. I honestly will have a hard time keeping him in
clean socks if I don't have some cooperation from him. (His cousin was
the worst, though, 6 months after he was no longer even living at our
house I'd still find one of his socks every time a moved something in a
corner or under a chair! The boy must have actively thrown his socks in
random directions every time he took them off.) Maybe we'll just budget
a pack of socks for the boy every week or two until we're more balanced?
Otherwise he'll just have to tolerate wearing dirty socks (which I can't
stand myself, I hate dirty socks the most, I think).
Robin
Sandra Dodd
-=-I helped her find stuff to do but I just didn't
feel very fun to be around. We did the newspaper logs thing but my
attitude was more like it was a chore than a fun project.-=-
Do you think your attitude was negative enough that it created a bad
memory?
-=-So my new level of understanding is that I first need to find
stuff that *I* enjoy doing and is fun for me that I can do with the
kids.-=-
Maybe.
-=-Not that newspaper logs wouldn't be fun for me if I let them be
fun but I wanted to take it over and do what I wanted. And we were
short on tape and newspaper.-=-
Baking a cake would be NO fun if you didn't have eggs and vanilla.
Don't start a project if you don't have the stuff for it.
-=-So today I think I'll try to buy enough newspaper and tape so that
there's enough for me to play and enjoy the way I want -=-
Eeeeek.
#1, why don't you wait for enough newspaper to build up naturally so
that you're working with extra, scrap, abundance?
#2, Do your kids want to do that? It sounds all about you. YOU to
play and YOU to enjoy.
-=-(I'm bossy and I lecture and I always know a better way to do
*everything*--at least that's the me they are used to). -=-
I'm starting to get used to it to, but I'd rather not! <g>
-=-BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun."
Never did achieve it back then ;)-=-
You won't now either.
People don't learn how to have fun. They either have fun or they
don't. There might be some stuff between you and having fun. If you
wanted to play in the water but you were wearing tights, socks,
shoes, pants, underwear, two shirts and an undershirt and a hat, lots
of jewelry, a jacket... Would you need to learn to play in the
water? Or would you need to figure out to take all that stuff off
and then just play?
You're wrapped in layers and layers of negativity and excuses and
rules and expectations that things will go wrong and be not fun.
-=--=-BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun."
Never did achieve it back then ;)-=--=-
EVERY YEAR you spent not having fun is gone. Don't let another day
go by.
http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://sandradodd.com/play
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feel very fun to be around. We did the newspaper logs thing but my
attitude was more like it was a chore than a fun project.-=-
Do you think your attitude was negative enough that it created a bad
memory?
-=-So my new level of understanding is that I first need to find
stuff that *I* enjoy doing and is fun for me that I can do with the
kids.-=-
Maybe.
-=-Not that newspaper logs wouldn't be fun for me if I let them be
fun but I wanted to take it over and do what I wanted. And we were
short on tape and newspaper.-=-
Baking a cake would be NO fun if you didn't have eggs and vanilla.
Don't start a project if you don't have the stuff for it.
-=-So today I think I'll try to buy enough newspaper and tape so that
there's enough for me to play and enjoy the way I want -=-
Eeeeek.
#1, why don't you wait for enough newspaper to build up naturally so
that you're working with extra, scrap, abundance?
#2, Do your kids want to do that? It sounds all about you. YOU to
play and YOU to enjoy.
-=-(I'm bossy and I lecture and I always know a better way to do
*everything*--at least that's the me they are used to). -=-
I'm starting to get used to it to, but I'd rather not! <g>
-=-BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun."
Never did achieve it back then ;)-=-
You won't now either.
People don't learn how to have fun. They either have fun or they
don't. There might be some stuff between you and having fun. If you
wanted to play in the water but you were wearing tights, socks,
shoes, pants, underwear, two shirts and an undershirt and a hat, lots
of jewelry, a jacket... Would you need to learn to play in the
water? Or would you need to figure out to take all that stuff off
and then just play?
You're wrapped in layers and layers of negativity and excuses and
rules and expectations that things will go wrong and be not fun.
-=--=-BTW I used to put that on my yearly goals: "Learn to have fun."
Never did achieve it back then ;)-=--=-
EVERY YEAR you spent not having fun is gone. Don't let another day
go by.
http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://sandradodd.com/play
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 10, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Robin wrote:
many changes.
It's also possible he has negative feelings about clean (like someone
getting hyped when there's a dish in a cleaned room). Or negative
feelings about the process of getting toward clean (lots of yelling
and shaming while picking things up). (Which might be ideas that fit
others' homes more, but useful to point out.)
It may not specifically be the disarray he's attached to but to the
feelings attached to or surrounding the disarray. That might help you
see it in a different light.
find something that works for him. Don't do it in the midst of being
upset about socks, though.
bunch, I can do a load of laundry" then throw them in with some other
stuff that needs done. The more options he has, the easier it is to
make useful choices.
I think too often parents approach kid problems with the attitude of
fixing the child to fix the problem. Rather than taking on
responsibility of the problem yourself, give him ideas and help and
support in finding solutions. But detach from the need to fix the
problem.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but he feelsMaybe. Possibly. Maybe it's his way of holding onto life amidst so
> emotionally more comfortable in disarray (probably because that's the
> way its always been--not just in his room but in the whole house to
> some
> degree--and that's the way the kids' room was the last time he lived
> with his mother)
many changes.
It's also possible he has negative feelings about clean (like someone
getting hyped when there's a dish in a cleaned room). Or negative
feelings about the process of getting toward clean (lots of yelling
and shaming while picking things up). (Which might be ideas that fit
others' homes more, but useful to point out.)
It may not specifically be the disarray he's attached to but to the
feelings attached to or surrounding the disarray. That might help you
see it in a different light.
> (when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble theyInstead of pointing out what not to do, how about working with him to
> wouldn't get clean...) but more recently he's started complaining that
> he has no clean socks.
>
find something that works for him. Don't do it in the midst of being
upset about socks, though.
> I honestly will have a hard time keeping him inWhen he says he has no clean socks, you can say, "If you gather up a
> clean socks if I don't have some cooperation from him.
>
bunch, I can do a load of laundry" then throw them in with some other
stuff that needs done. The more options he has, the easier it is to
make useful choices.
I think too often parents approach kid problems with the attitude of
fixing the child to fix the problem. Rather than taking on
responsibility of the problem yourself, give him ideas and help and
support in finding solutions. But detach from the need to fix the
problem.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
> http://sandradodd.com/morningthis is beautiful.
>this one takes me to a dead end.
> http://sandradodd.com/play
>another excellent page from an excellent site :o)
> http://sandradodd.com/checklists
>
When I move thru your site, I feel like a child in a candy store, or
like Im in a fantastic meandering castle with hidden secret rooms and
magic doors to new realities...
melissa
Schuyler
------------------
Not that long ago, he even claimed he preferred wearing dirty socks
(when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble they
wouldn't get clean...)
----------------
I might prefer wearing dirty socks to having my stuff referred to as rubble. It helps, it really, really helps to find joy in the things your children do.
Right now, in front of the television, there are a slew of oragami papers and markers and paper dolls and other bits and bobs from Linnaea crafting one or another thing. As I peer closer I can see a bird she made and drawings she's drawn and planes she designed as toys for the kittens. I will probably go over and tidy it up in a little bit, to keep the pieces safer from folks walking around and to make sure that there isn't food for the ants. It takes only a moment to turn what you describe as rubble into a series of activities, of joyous moments. They are still lifes waiting to be interpreted. I can see the shadow of her sitting there and doing and making and talking and turning to Simon to show him or running to fly the plane she made in the hallway to see if it would fly well enough to engage whichever kitten it was designed to amuse, or calling to me to come and interpret whichever fold the origami book was describing onto the paper she was folding.
It isn't rubble, it is her life.
----------------------
I honestly will have a hard time keeping him in
clean socks if I don't have some cooperation from him.
-----------------
What does that mean? It's summer, right? It isn't much of a season for socks, clean or otherwise. Go buy tons of socks, find them on sale, don't worry about quality, get quantity. Put them near the washing machine and bring him pairs every time you wash his clothes. Fill his drawers with socks. Make him feel rich in socks. It won't cost a lot. It seems a very strange moan needing cooperation to keep him in socks. They are just socks. Just minutia. Just a small thing to make his life better and more comfortable. Not something to need cooperation to obtain.
-----------------
(His cousin was
the worst, though, 6 months after he was no longer even living at our
house I'd still find one of his socks every time a moved something in a
corner or under a chair! The boy must have actively thrown his socks in
random directions every time he took them off.)
-------------------
Move all the furniture and see if there are still some socks around and wash them and offer them to this boy who lacks clean socks. What a wonderful way to remember this house guest, to picture him winging his socks around as he felt his toes freed. Maybe he hated his socks and it was such joy to get them off that he couldn't help but make them fly!
------------------
Maybe we'll just budget
a pack of socks for the boy every week or two until we're more balanced?
------------------
Yes, good idea. I don't know what your balance has to do with it, but definitely if he needs more socks buy him more socks.
--------------------
Otherwise he'll just have to tolerate wearing dirty socks (which I can't
stand myself, I hate dirty socks the most, I think).
-----------------
But he is different than you, right? So maybe it isn't that which he hates the most. Maybe dirty socks are kind of comfortable. Maybe finding two that match is exciting, or being cool and indifferent and wearing whatever was on the floor appeals. Maybe going barefoot is better. Maybe he likes shoes without socks sometimes. Maybe there is more between buying and tolerating. Maybe.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not that long ago, he even claimed he preferred wearing dirty socks
(when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble they
wouldn't get clean...)
----------------
I might prefer wearing dirty socks to having my stuff referred to as rubble. It helps, it really, really helps to find joy in the things your children do.
Right now, in front of the television, there are a slew of oragami papers and markers and paper dolls and other bits and bobs from Linnaea crafting one or another thing. As I peer closer I can see a bird she made and drawings she's drawn and planes she designed as toys for the kittens. I will probably go over and tidy it up in a little bit, to keep the pieces safer from folks walking around and to make sure that there isn't food for the ants. It takes only a moment to turn what you describe as rubble into a series of activities, of joyous moments. They are still lifes waiting to be interpreted. I can see the shadow of her sitting there and doing and making and talking and turning to Simon to show him or running to fly the plane she made in the hallway to see if it would fly well enough to engage whichever kitten it was designed to amuse, or calling to me to come and interpret whichever fold the origami book was describing onto the paper she was folding.
It isn't rubble, it is her life.
----------------------
I honestly will have a hard time keeping him in
clean socks if I don't have some cooperation from him.
-----------------
What does that mean? It's summer, right? It isn't much of a season for socks, clean or otherwise. Go buy tons of socks, find them on sale, don't worry about quality, get quantity. Put them near the washing machine and bring him pairs every time you wash his clothes. Fill his drawers with socks. Make him feel rich in socks. It won't cost a lot. It seems a very strange moan needing cooperation to keep him in socks. They are just socks. Just minutia. Just a small thing to make his life better and more comfortable. Not something to need cooperation to obtain.
-----------------
(His cousin was
the worst, though, 6 months after he was no longer even living at our
house I'd still find one of his socks every time a moved something in a
corner or under a chair! The boy must have actively thrown his socks in
random directions every time he took them off.)
-------------------
Move all the furniture and see if there are still some socks around and wash them and offer them to this boy who lacks clean socks. What a wonderful way to remember this house guest, to picture him winging his socks around as he felt his toes freed. Maybe he hated his socks and it was such joy to get them off that he couldn't help but make them fly!
------------------
Maybe we'll just budget
a pack of socks for the boy every week or two until we're more balanced?
------------------
Yes, good idea. I don't know what your balance has to do with it, but definitely if he needs more socks buy him more socks.
--------------------
Otherwise he'll just have to tolerate wearing dirty socks (which I can't
stand myself, I hate dirty socks the most, I think).
-----------------
But he is different than you, right? So maybe it isn't that which he hates the most. Maybe dirty socks are kind of comfortable. Maybe finding two that match is exciting, or being cool and indifferent and wearing whatever was on the floor appeals. Maybe going barefoot is better. Maybe he likes shoes without socks sometimes. Maybe there is more between buying and tolerating. Maybe.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
<<Go buy tons of socks, find them on sale, don't worry about quality,
get quantity. Put them near the washing machine and bring him pairs
every time you wash his clothes. Fill his drawers with socks. Make him
feel rich in socks. It won't cost a lot. It seems a very strange moan
needing cooperation to keep him in socks. They are just socks. Just
minutia. Just a small thing to make his life better and more
comfortable. Not something to need cooperation to obtain.<<
this is so true.
we have so many socks it is overwhelming *if* I let myself get caught
up in the idea of keep em all washed paired and sorted...
we have 9 people of all sizes and lots of socks. I really found it a
waste of energy to be always lecturing about pairing their socks after
they are worn to put them in the wash, about how they (who ever) never
remember where they left their socks...asking for help to sort them,
It is just not worth it.
then we started just collecting all the socks possible. I have way
too many (so says some) but on the other hand, I dont have to stress
that there arent enough paired clean socks to go round.
how many socks do we have? a bushel full (and over flowing). Really!
just let those socks flow! And make sure that you dont get different
sized sock in similar colours. Lorenzo dh found a bargain on organic
white socks once in 4 different sizes (we have friends in the
business) and those socks just sit there, never getting paired as it
is so difficult to sort them out by size shape (some are short some
long, some plain some with ribbing) and no colours.
I have a hanging 6 tiered basket (ikea) that I hung up near my laundry
area. As the clean socks come in (sometimes already paired)from drying
in the sun, they get tossed in the bushel basket. As we find a pair,
we toss into the tiers (Lidia lucia and I share our socks, as do Raff
and Matteo so 6 is perfect).
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 21yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 14yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 8yr, giacomo leo 5yr and gioele 2.75y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."
Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
get quantity. Put them near the washing machine and bring him pairs
every time you wash his clothes. Fill his drawers with socks. Make him
feel rich in socks. It won't cost a lot. It seems a very strange moan
needing cooperation to keep him in socks. They are just socks. Just
minutia. Just a small thing to make his life better and more
comfortable. Not something to need cooperation to obtain.<<
this is so true.
we have so many socks it is overwhelming *if* I let myself get caught
up in the idea of keep em all washed paired and sorted...
we have 9 people of all sizes and lots of socks. I really found it a
waste of energy to be always lecturing about pairing their socks after
they are worn to put them in the wash, about how they (who ever) never
remember where they left their socks...asking for help to sort them,
It is just not worth it.
then we started just collecting all the socks possible. I have way
too many (so says some) but on the other hand, I dont have to stress
that there arent enough paired clean socks to go round.
how many socks do we have? a bushel full (and over flowing). Really!
just let those socks flow! And make sure that you dont get different
sized sock in similar colours. Lorenzo dh found a bargain on organic
white socks once in 4 different sizes (we have friends in the
business) and those socks just sit there, never getting paired as it
is so difficult to sort them out by size shape (some are short some
long, some plain some with ribbing) and no colours.
I have a hanging 6 tiered basket (ikea) that I hung up near my laundry
area. As the clean socks come in (sometimes already paired)from drying
in the sun, they get tossed in the bushel basket. As we find a pair,
we toss into the tiers (Lidia lucia and I share our socks, as do Raff
and Matteo so 6 is perfect).
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 21yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 14yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 8yr, giacomo leo 5yr and gioele 2.75y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."
Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
Brad Holcomb
>dh found a bargain on organic white socks once in 4 different sizescolours
>(we have friends in the business) and those socks just sit there,
>never getting paired as it is so difficult to sort them out by
>size shape (some are short some long, some plain some with ribbing) and no
My wife and I have similar-looking plain white short socks we wear under
athletic shoes. They're almost the same size, but mine are larger. To keep
them separate and avoid the frustration of her smaller socks ending up in
*my* sock drawer, I just used Sharpie (permanent) markers to put
different-colored marks on the sole/toe area and make it easier to sort
them. Sharpie markers are available in about a dozen colors in the
USA...not sure about other parts of the globe.
-=b.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org