Nancy Machaj

Be Boring. Dont follow your own passions. Have no hobbies. Focus on
keeping the house clean and the laundry done. Never be spontaneous.
Plan everything. Put yourself last, all the time. Dont question
yourself. Dont question others. Make your kids earn their keep with
chores and jobs. Remind your kids often of how much you do for them.

Nancy Machaj


*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pebsflower

-- I really feel offened by certian points here... I do keep my house
clean and my laundry done! I currently rent and my landloard would
not approve if it were dirty! I even kept the home we owe clean when
we lived in it as i was proud to have it and liked it clean!I also
plan things as I have too or We would not be able to do things..I
work a full time job! and a part time job!I am our sole support.Yes,
I pretty much plan everything so this way we are able to get the
most of a time period or our hard earned dollar!
My son does chores, just like his older sister and brother had done
before him! They turned out just fine!And with a knowledge of how to
do things in the house!!!
I do put myself last as my family is the most important things before
me...There needs and wants are more than mine..My son will be 18 soon
enough and he will be on his own and not need me then so i will do
for him now. My hubby is disabled and his needs are more than my
needs..life has been not a bowl of cherries but we will get through.
Maybe you have it very, very easy ..but others may not. We may have
to follow a schedule and do our own house and laundry..I work full
time and have to do these things at times so that my uniforms are
clean to wear to work and my work clothes are clean to wear to the
other job I have. I have no choices as well I'll do it tommorrow
casue tommorw is usally full with other other details to do..DRs.
appointments, homeschool trips, a hike, etc.

I am not boring , nor do I have a boring life! I do many things and
learn many new things along the way! You may be very surprised At
what you can find interesting and fun things at! ANYWHERE AT ANY
TIME! life is a struggle at times but I make the most of it, and I
think before you state things, you need to think of otherw who may
have to live differently than you. I did not choose to live like
this..I did not choose to have my hubby injured and then have many
health problems, not did I choose to have cancer as I do. If I don't
work my full time job.. I lose my healthe benefits and then i don't
get my treatments or my hubbys meds, testing paid for, etc.

Pebs
Learningyahoogroups.com, Nancy Machaj <nmachaj@...> wrote:
>
> Be Boring. Dont follow your own passions. Have no hobbies. Focus
on
> keeping the house clean and the laundry done. Never be
spontaneous.
> Plan everything. Put yourself last, all the time. Dont question
> yourself. Dont question others. Make your kids earn their keep
with
> chores and jobs. Remind your kids often of how much you do for them.
>
> Nancy Machaj
>
>
> *****
> blogging at:
> http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
>
>
>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-My son will be 18 soon
enough and he will be on his own and not need me then so i will do
for him now. -=-

My sons are 19 and 21, and they still need me sometimes. Are you
making him move out?

-=-We may have to follow a schedule and do our own house and
laundry..-=-

Are you suggesting that others have servants, or that you "have to"
follow a schedule and others here don't "have to"?

-=-You may be very surprised At what you can find interesting and fun
things at! ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME!-=-

I don't think anyone here would be surprised.

-=-I think before you state things, you need to think of otherw who
may have to live differently than you.-=-

If someone does everything on that list, unschooling will stop
working for them (or never start working, more likely).

Probably everyone here has done lots of those things, and probably
still does a few.

No one is trying to offend you. If this list begins to focus on
being absolutely free of potential hurt feelings instead of focusing
on helping people see what helps unschooling work, we might as well
close it up and do something else.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

It's also possible to be a wonderful person and not be an unschooler.
However since this list is about unschooling I'm happy the list owners
insist on focusing on the ideas.

I can't count the times I read or written something and found that oops...
hey way a minute... and darn if there isn't something else I want to
consider about my conception of unschooling.

~Katherine


If this list begins to focus on
> being absolutely free of potential hurt feelings instead of focusing
> on helping people see what helps unschooling work, we might as well
> close it up and do something else.
>
> Sandra
>
> .
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 27, 2008, at 1:26 PM, pebsflower wrote:

> I do keep my house clean and my laundry done!


That's your choice.

But no one can choose to clean (or not clean) if they don't feel they
have the choice.

> I work a full time job! and a part time job!I


That's great you can also provide unschooling for you kids. :-)

It also sounds like you've got resentment and frustration building
up. Releasing it at people who aren't the cause of your situation,
who have no power over your situation doesn't help anyone. All it
does is potentially darken some mornings that would have been happy.
And potentially (unconsciously) cause them to spend less time
answering a question from you that might actually help relieve some
of your stress.

> My son does chores, just like his older sister and brother had done
> before him! They turned out just fine!


This list doesn't exist to support mainstream approaches when there
are ways that build relationships *and* get the tasks done.

If you feel you need to have kids do chores, then embrace that fully
as your choice. (The kids might not though! All choices have
consequences.)

The list is for putting relationships first and finding ways to fit
everything else in around that.

> And with a knowledge of how to do things in the house!!!


So does my daughter. Without the chores. And if I ask her to do
something she more often than not says "Sure!" or "I'd love to!" How
many moms of 16 yos more often than not get a groan and an eye roll?

> I do put myself last as my family is the most important things
> before me...There needs and wants are more than mine.


Maybe you can't see another way. Feeling we don't have a choice makes
us feel secure in what we're doing. It's less work if we don't have a
choice. But it's an illusion. Those who see something better and feel
the effort needed to get there is worth it, do find other ways.

As a general rule putting everyone else ahead of self isn't healthy.
Nor should we be more important. Everyone should count, including
mom. When we take our own needs into consideration, we model caring
for ourselves for our children. We free them from the guilt of
"having to" do for others. We allow them to joyfully choose to help
others.

(The problem is that often our "needs" are really old scripts that we
don't realize have no meaning. That's why everything needs examined.
Though, when kids are little, we do need to set aside a lot (not all)
of our needs for a while. It's a stage.)

While those who put their all into something, sacrificing themselves
in the process, often accomplish a lot, quite often they don't get
the respect for their sacrifices they may end up feeling they
deserve. It creates resentment and anger. It creates moms who rail on
the phone "Why don't you call? You never call me! All the sacrifices
I made for you all those years and you can't pick up the phone?"

When people choose to sacrifice themselves, they should acknowledge
that it's a gift they're joyfully giving with no strings attached.
*No one* has asked anyone to make sacrifices. *No one* will
appreciate the sacrifices for things they didn't ask someone to make
sacrifices for. (Especially if they're handed a "bill" at the end
with a "You owe me!")

I'm sympathetic to your situation but the list is for people to work
on relationships, not create martyrs. If you don't feel some advice
is useful for you, let it go. It's meant for others.

> Maybe you have it very, very easy ..but others may not.


Yes, many lives are easier than others. It makes life even more
difficult if we look at how full others buckets are rather than
looking at how full our own is, though.

If my bucket and Sandra's bucket and Pam's and Ren's and Kelly's and
Deb's (and the list goes on) buckets were not as full as they are,
they wouldn't have the time to spend on lists helping others. Would
that be good? Would there be some satisfaction if everyone suffered
equally with no time to help others?

And there *are* single working mothers who unschool who do find ways
to make advice here work. (Obviously, and unfortunately, they tend to
have less time to write and help others figure out how to do it!)
It's *really* helpful not to picture everyone on the list having an
intact family with working husband.

> I have no choices as well I'll do it tommorrow casue tommorw is
> usally full with other other details to do.


You *choose* to wash your uniforms because you like that option
better than the option of wearing a dirty uniform. No one has every
option available. Not all options are equally good. But everyone has
choices they make all the time. It's only when we dismiss the options
we don't like as though they didn't exist that we feel trapped by
"have tos".

> I think before you state things, you need to think of otherw who
> may have to live differently than you.


I'm sure it's supremely frustrating to feel your situation prevents
you from using a lot of the advice offered. But taking your
frustration out on people who are helping others doesn't help you or
them. Better to take it to the cause or a support group for those in
similar situations where it might actually do some good. Can you find
some support groups through your hospital?

> I did not choose to live like this..


And I'm really sorry life has thrown you a crap load of curve balls.
But you're punching people who might come up with great ideas for
some situation you have but punched people often don't like helping
their punchers. *Especially* when they've been punched because
they're just a convenient target.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-While those who put their all into something, sacrificing themselves
in the process, often accomplish a lot, quite often they don't get
the respect for their sacrifices they may end up feeling they
deserve. It creates resentment and anger. It creates moms who rail on
the phone "Why don't you call? You never call me! All the sacrifices
I made for you all those years and you can't pick up the phone?"-=-

That behavior can come from moms who set their kids aside and thought
of themselves first all those years, too.

I spent much of the past two days with Holly, at Holly's request most
of the times. We went to a movie. We went shopping a different
time. We worked on the art for Learn Nothing Day together. I helped
her with some things in her room, which she's cleaning out and
rearranging.

Her boyfriend (a nice guy I like) spent much of that time with his
relatives, but against his will, and when he did answer the summons
he got "Why don't you call? You're a failure. Aren't you ashamed?"

They wonder why he'd rather be at our house.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

Actually this list helps me to not foster resentment and frustration that can sneak up on me because of my situation.

It helps me to keep on the happy side so to speak - to keep me focused on why I "have to" er I mean choose to get up and go to work. I choose to because I don't fancy living on the streets nor would I want that for my family. My working hard enables us to play and do things we would not be able to do otherwise. My cup is full not empty. It is a combination of air and water and it is my/our particular combination - every one has their own combination. When I saw how I chose to go to work it really did help my attitude. I was also grateful that I had a job - or that we both were not sick, etc. etc. Reading about others in much worse conditions than I and how they triumph is a great inspiration for me - I just come across these stories now and then in the news paper, books, the internet, the news.

When I get to a place of the pity party for myself I give myself a shake and chose to focus on the joy. No one ever promised me a rose garden - but I choose to bloom where I am planted.

I once heard an analogy and it is a great analogy for this list, for us anyway (hubby and I): An airplane pilot knows where he wants to end up and heads in the right direction. Because he is always a bit off course, he uses his knowledge and constantly checks his instruments. He makes minute corrections in his "flying" to stay the course and end up where he wants to. If he did not make those minute corrections he would end up where he did not want to be. I probably botched that in written form but I hope it conveys the message I wanted it too.

This list helps me stay the course, constantly learning new ways of looking at things, trying them on for fit and keeping what is a good fit and setting aside for further contemplation that which rubs a sore spot. This list is for learning; for stretching out of our comfort zone.

Lisa W.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Machaj

The things I wrote:

-=-
Be Boring. Dont follow your own passions. Have no hobbies. Focus
on
> keeping the house clean and the laundry done. Never be
spontaneous.
> Plan everything. Put yourself last, all the time. Dont question
> yourself. Dont question others. Make your kids earn their keep
with
> chores and jobs. Remind your kids often of how much you do for them.
>
-=-

I didnt mean to say that all of those things, in and of themselves,
are incompatible with unschooling. My house is clean (sometimes. ha!)
and I do laundry and make plans and put other people first. But not
all the time, not rigidly, and not when it would be better to do it
differently.

Other family members help out around the house. But we let the place
get messy if we are involved in a project (yesterday we made a fort
in the living room with sheets) and we veer off plans if better
options present themselves.

But a large part of it, is the intent behind it, the motivation. This
group of ideas, I meant to show that moms have to take care of
themselves too, or they burn out or get frustrated. That its
important to be a role model-*being* a person who is engaged in life
and can find ways to get their needs met and enjoy things. That its
important to not make your kids feel like indentured servants working
off a debt they incurred just by being born into your household.

Nancy


*****
blogging at:
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I didnt mean to say that all of those things, in and of themselves,
are incompatible with unschooling. My house is clean (sometimes. ha!)
and I do laundry and make plans and put other people first. But not
all the time, not rigidly, and not when it would be better to do it
differently.-=-



I'm willing to consider amending that list anytime.

I understood the intent of it. If someone did all the things on that
list they'd be nowhere near unschooling. Each one they could drop in
favor of really looking at their child or teen or children as an
intelligent, emotionally whole human would bring them nearer to good
relationships.

And if they did the opposite of ALL those things, at least most of
the time, would it BE unschooling?



Maybe we've left out some crucial bits, but we can keep tweaking it.
I think it's a useful tool. Telling people "what to do" makes some
of them totally bristle up, even when they've made some effort to
come to a place like this and lay out their whole life and say "What
should I do?"

And clearly doing a shadow-show of it, showing the outline in
opposite terms, caused some bristlyness too. (The spell checker
doesn't like "bristliness" or "bristlyness" or "bristleyness.")

There are people all around us who will roll at the least
criticism. They'll whimper at a minorly questioning facial
expression. There are even homeschooling writers who get themselves
in positions of softening their statement of beliefs to keep
advertisers or sponsors or list members or readers.

Compromising one's beliefs to appease strangers is too thin a soup
for me, personally. Of course when strong ideas are laid out in
words or pictures, some people get scared or wish we would take it
back, "be inclusive," or whatever.

Luckily for us all there are lots of magazines, and lots of webpages,
and lots of discussion lists. Nobody has to be (nor could be, nor
should be) anyone else's sole source of information.

I'm not setting out to hurt anyone's feelings, nor to soothe anyone's
feelings. I like to be in communication with others who are willing
to look at the what and why and how of natural learning, with
examples from their real lives. When I write or speak, I'm thinking
about what might be helpful to those in the audience who want to move
more toward unschooling. I'm not thinking about the comfort and joy
of those who think unschooling is no good, nor am I ever interested
in prolonging or supporting the negativity of those who are used to
seeing things in cynical and pessimistic ways. I think it's great
when something someone writes here cheers them up or gives them the
first glimpse of the fact that they can choose to be happier. That's
great! But I won't make sure cynics are comfortable over there in
the dark corner.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

I have found in the past that when something someone has written on a list
that is not directed to me personally, causes me to react strongly, it is
often because it is something I need to give more thought. When I am firm
in my belief in something, I don't generally react strongly to someone's
challenging ideas. I may acknowledge that I don't agree and then I easily
move on and it doesn't cause me to get angry or annoyed. I only get stuck
when something digs at my conscious.





Angela Shaw

game-enthusiast@...

<http://www.ourbigslife.blogspot.com>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J Geller

This really hits home with me. Thank you for this insight. I got a lot out of reading "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie and she talks about this principal.

I am loving this list because it is giving me wonderful opportunities to examine my thinking. Even when things are directed at me, it is wonderful practice for me to look at my own reaction and work on the things that make me defensive. I also love how people try to clarify their thinking.
Thanks,
Jae



I have found in the past that when something someone has written on a list
that is not directed to me personally, causes me to react strongly, it is
often because it is something I need to give more thought. When I am firm
in my belief in something, I don't generally react strongly to someone's
challenging ideas. I may acknowledge that I don't agree and then I easily
move on and it doesn't cause me to get angry or annoyed. I only get stuck
when something digs at my conscious.

Angela Shaw

game-enthusiast@...

<http://www.ourbigslife.blogspot.com>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I meant to show that moms have to take care of
themselves too, or they burn out or get frustrated. That its
important to be a role model-*being* a person who is engaged in life
and can find ways to get their needs met and enjoy things. That its
important to not make your kids feel like indentured servants working
off a debt they incurred just by being born into your household.-=-



I know it's not new, but I'm behind, and this seemed worth repeating.

Any argument over "put your family first" and "put yourself first" is
going to need this:

http://sandradodd.com/balance



Too many children are shamed and guilted with the assumption that
they should be happy and grateful just for the huge privilege of
being born. Most humans are the byproduct of sex-for-fun episodes
(or worse, when NOT for fun). Yes I know, and it's fine, that some
people love to think that God has his eye on the little spermatazoa
and guides the best one to the ovum at just the right time in that
mother's life when God wants her to get pregnant. Everyone who
claims to believe that can probably name dozens of people who seem
serious evidence against it, but they believe God guides sperm in
mysterious ways.

I think most people are just accidents. There's no gratitude due
for being the accidental effect of sex.



Once the spermatazoic deed is done, though, then people have choices
to make about how to act, how to sit/stand/speak/sing. And some of
those will be things to be grateful for, and some will not be.

Making a child feel guilty for being insufficiently grateful for the
miracle of life is a lowdown rotten thing women have been doing to
children for a long time.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mellissa

> Too many children are shamed and guilted with the assumption that
> they should be happy and grateful just for the huge privilege of
> being born.

> Making a child feel guilty for being insufficiently grateful for the
> miracle of life is a lowdown rotten thing women have been doing to
> children for a long time.
>


I am new to this list. I have been reading lists, blogs, websites,
etc. for a couple of years, trying to stretch my mind into these new
shapes that seem so right. But I am struggling a little here. Do you
mean its wrong to try to help a child feel grateful for all of the
blessings in his life? Or do you mean he should not be obligated to
the parent for giving birth?

Mellissa

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 4, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Mellissa wrote:

> Do you
> mean its wrong to try to help a child feel grateful for all of the
> blessings in his life?

While my daughter does express gratitude I think seeing that as a
goal for a child can trap us into teaching mode. *How* do you help a
child feel grateful for blessings? If we're thinking "I need to get
her to see things this way," we can end up pushing them that
direction when it seems they aren't facing that way. We might tell
them what we want them to believe. Especially when they aren't acting
grateful we can slip into "You shouldn't whine because the present
wasn't what you wanted. Some kids don't even get presents!"

But, on the other hand if we are sincerely grateful for them being in
our lives and for what we have, that spreads out and infects others. :-)

(We can also help them deal with disappointment (and whatever else
that makes it seem like they're facing the wrong way) with real tools
that will help them rather than shame at what are honest feelings.)

> Or do you mean he should not be obligated to
> the parent for giving birth?

Correct, no obligation. Kids didn't ask to be born. We invited them.
And with all the good stuff about them, we invited their messes and
their different points of view and their pull on our time. Rather
than pointing out how inconvenient they are, much better to accept
that inconvenience is part of the bargain and help them get whatever
they're trying to get.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Kids didn't ask to be born. We invited them. -=-

Or didn't invite them, but either way it's not THEIR doing. It was
something the parents did.

-=- Do you mean its wrong to try to help a child feel grateful for
all of the
blessings in his life? -=-

Life isn't such a great blessing.
I do help my children feel grateful, by helping them see what was
good in the intentions of the person who tried to help them, or gave
them a gift. I help them interpret the world when they need help or
when they seem to be missing some large parts. I try to help
everyone in our family have a joyful and positive outlook.


-=-Or do you mean he should not be obligated to the parent for giving
birth?-=-

I don't personally consider that a great blessing, in case those two
questions went together.

But let's say one did think that was a blessing in a child's life and
there should be obligation. What kind of obligation?

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mellissa

I do not feel my children are obligated in any way for being born or
for having parents. I really was referring to the idea that trying
to help children see all that there is to be grateful for in their
lives is a decision and a lifestyle. I never thought it might be
inducing guilt to encourage this outlook. I guess I will have to
really watch my motivation and their reactions when I mention
gratitude.

I am grateful for the people who take time to help the rest of us
struggle with these ideas. Thanks.

> Life isn't such a great blessing.
> I do help my children feel grateful, by helping them see what was
> good in the intentions of the person who tried to help them, or
gave
> them a gift. I help them interpret the world when they need help
or
> when they seem to be missing some large parts. I try to help
> everyone in our family have a joyful and positive outlook.
>
> >
> But let's say one did think that was a blessing in a child's life
and
> there should be obligation. What kind of obligation?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pamela Sorooshian

You can't teach them to be grateful, anyway. So when you say "help"
them be grateful, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that you
model being grateful for what you have to be grateful for, cool. If
you mean anything else, it sounds kind of contrived. I've made this
particular mistake a lot - took me a lot of years to fully understand
what a mistake it was - here is the typical scenario:

Kid seems to me to be not showing enough appreciation for something -
not grateful for something I think she ought to be grateful for. Seems
to me to be a sort of negativity and a taking things for granted
attitude. It is truly NOT that I'm personally feeling underappreciated
or that I want the kid to act more grateful to me, for my own sake. It
is truly that I think the child will be happier if she has a more
grateful attitude. So, I point it out. I say something like, "It is so
nice that your aunt gave you that book," or "That sandwich looks
really tasty," or even, "You must be grateful to your sister for
making that cd mix for you."

If she's already feeling all kinds of gratitude, then fine. I didn't
help her develop it - she already had it. But, if she's not feeling
grateful at all, you know what I just did? I shamed the kid who now
thinks, "I "should" be feeling grateful and I'm a bad person because I
do NOT feel grateful, I'm just slightly annoyed that --- aunt didn't
get the right book, the sandwich has mustard which I do not like, or
my sister made me a cd mix with the music "she" likes, not what I
like--- etc. So - I blunder in and basically say, "You should be
grateful" and now the kid feels like a jerk.

I don't do that anymore.

I might mention that someone else would appreciate knowing it if the
child IS grateful for something. "You liked that book so much; it
would be cool if you let your aunt know how much you appreciated it."

I might point out something if I genuinely think the child doesn't
know and would like to know - if the chid walks in and eats a pastry
that she clearly is really enjoying, I might say, "Hey, be sure thank
your aunt for bringing those," or something like that.

If a child is going through list of all the bad stuff that has
happened to them, I might say, "You got that great book from your
aunt, remember?"

-pam

On Jul 4, 2008, at 1:43 PM, Mellissa wrote:

> I never thought it might be
> inducing guilt to encourage this outlook. I guess I will have to
> really watch my motivation and their reactions when I mention
> gratitude.
>
> I am grateful for the people who take time to help the rest of us
> struggle with these ideas. Thanks.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I really was referring to the idea that trying
to help children see all that there is to be grateful for in their
lives is a decision and a lifestyle. I never thought it might be
inducing guilt to encourage this outlook.-=-



I don't think it's a single two-dimensional continuum. There are
lots of factors involved in gratitude. Is their life worth being
grateful for? There's one way--make their lives rich and safe and
good (or make choices that will lead toward, rather than away, from
that).

Optimistic behavior and speech and facial expressions and phrases all
will lead to more gratitude. Eeyore-like pessimism and cynicism will
lead to more dissatisfaction, suspicion and negativity.



Some moms seem to think they're trying to help children see what
there is to be grateful for by saying "BE GRATEFUL, you selfish
brat" (or a more gentle version of that). So I think I do help my
children to live lives appreciatively, but I try to stay away from
the guilt induction. (I don't always succeed.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

But, if she's not feeling
> grateful at all, you know what I just did? I shamed the kid who now
> thinks, "I "should" be feeling grateful and I'm a bad person because I
> do NOT feel grateful, I'm just slightly annoyed that --- aunt didn't
> get the right book, the sandwich has mustard which I do not like, or
> my sister made me a cd mix with the music "she" likes, not what I
> like--- etc. So - I blunder in and basically say, "You should be
> grateful" and now the kid feels like a jerk.
>

I will sometimes help my kids shift their perspective to find the gratitude that may be
lurking. Like in the example above, if the book wasn't right, I may acknowledge with them
that they really wanted a different book, but then point out that aunt likely didn't really know
(or whatever might be true) and that it's possible to be appreciative of the energy she put
into the attempt and still think the book stinks.

Sometimes it seems like they just need a little help finding it, and through one set of lenses it
isn't visible, but through another it is.

Joanna