Kim Musolff

Someone emailed me, and asked if I could post this anonymously. She's
really having trouble with her son,and says that she's been trying the
advice she's gotten from this list and others, for years, and nothing seems
to be working. She has tried talking, hugging, finding out why he's angry,
etc. and wants to know what to do when nothing else works. I've given my
advice, but suggested listing it here, too, since I'm still new at this.

Thanks,
Kim

***I have been on this list and others for years now and i really
haven't found a good answer about our son's behaviour. He treats my dh
bad sometimes. For example, dh and he were playing in the
backyard...baseball, and out of the blue he ran up and hit dh with the
bat! Dh turn to go in (he was mad) and our son picked up a handful of
dirt and threw it in DH' hair! Dh was livid! SAying he doesn't get any
respect and that he doesn't want to do anything with our son. Our son
is still running from him when they go to the playground,store,etc.
Our son is 6yo.
this is just one example of many incidents between my son and my
husband. Sometimes i see them playing together and think...oh crap,
soon they will be screaming!***


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff" <kmoose75@...> wrote:
>
> Someone emailed me, and asked if I could post this anonymously. She's
> really having trouble with her son,and says that she's been trying the
> advice she's gotten from this list and others, for years, and
nothing seems
> to be working. She has tried talking, hugging, finding out why he's
angry,
> etc. and wants to know what to do when nothing else works. I've
given my
> advice, but suggested listing it here, too, since I'm still new at this.
>
> Thanks,
> Kim
>
> ***I have been on this list and others for years now and i really
> haven't found a good answer about our son's behaviour. He treats my dh
> bad sometimes. For example, dh and he were playing in the
> backyard...baseball, and out of the blue he ran up and hit dh with the
> bat! Dh turn to go in (he was mad) and our son picked up a handful of
> dirt and threw it in DH' hair! Dh was livid! SAying he doesn't get any
> respect and that he doesn't want to do anything with our son. Our son
> is still running from him when they go to the playground,store,etc.
> Our son is 6yo.
> this is just one example of many incidents between my son and my
> husband. Sometimes i see them playing together and think...oh crap,
> soon they will be screaming!***
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



I don't give parenting advice, but I have had a major problem in the
past with my son when he was at school (ages 5 to 7) and becoming
increasingly unhappy with that. Sometimes everything I did seemed to
antagonise him. It was most disconcerting when my son would suddenly
become aggressive and sometimes violent toward me 'for no apparent
reason'. In other words, I had no idea what I'd done to trigger it. As
far as I could tell, I was the epitome of sweetness and light, but, as
the saying goes, the meaning of the message is how the recipient
responds to it - while I was sure I was being positive, friendly,
supportive, and the rest, my son apparently perceived me as The Dad
From Hell. Presumably because instead of actually helping him get what
he wanted I was doing what I thought would help but didn't. Who knows?
I'm not a mind reader.

In truth, there were other factors involved besides the school
experience. My son had been in childcare for bits and pieces of his
toddlerhood (until I quit my job to be at home with him full time when
he was two and a half), with the result that his life in those early
years had been quite fragmented at times - he usually didn't know when
he would be at home, when he would be elsewhere, and who he would be
with. We moved house five times from his birth until we bought the
house we're living in now when he was five years old, including
emigrating from England to Australia.

While all that was going on, there were occasional tantrums and acts
of aggression to accommodate somehow whenever he became frustrated
with his less than ideal circumstances. One day, when my son was two,
I had come home from work and I was playing with him, helping him
build with his Brio, and he deliberately smacked me in the mouth with
one of the wooden blocks and broke two teeth. And while I'm rolling on
the floor in pain with little bits of my shattered teeth around me, my
wife's saying "What did you do to upset him?" LOL. I still laugh about
that when I think of it. For somebody who thinks of himself as a
'successful parent' (which I am), these events are a challenge.

That was an exceptional event though. Mostly the tantrums and acts of
aggression were of the usual kind for a toddler (if that makes sense).
When my son started school, however, what had been occasional tantrums
and outbursts escalated over time into almost chronic rage. After my
wife and I had decided he would be homeschooled, we made the HUGE
mistake of agreeing with the school that he would complete the year
(there were only seven weeks remaining when we made the decision - I
would have taken him out immediately in retrospect). During those
'dark and desperate' weeks, I used to pick my son up from the
classroom and, on the ten minute walk home, he would almost always
pick a fight with me out of nothing and would either sit down on the
ground and refuse to budge or I would get punched and kicked and
occasionally whacked with a conveniently available tree branch. One
time, he threw a house brick at my head. It's okay, I ducked. :)

Anyway, we got through it. Within weeks of my son leaving school, his
tantrums and apparently random acts of aggression had vanished like
morning mist in the sunshine. It took another couple of years for us
to become as close as I would like to have always been with him - we
hadn't exactly got off to a great start with that: we'd spent hardly
any meaningful time together in the first two and a half years of his
life because I'd had a 'real job' in those days that kept me away from
home 60 hours a week.

Once my son was out of school, my wife and I were able to give him
something he'd never really known before - at least to the extent that
he could trust in it - maximum control over his own life. Once, that
is, we'd dumped the 'school at home' trial that lasted all of two weeks.

When truly helpful circumstances eventuated (not circumstances we only
thought were helpful), my son became positive and friendly very
quickly. He was always a genuinely wonderful person. And behaved
accordingly most of the time. Now there were no hindrances to him
being wonderful all the time - as he's continued to be.

What I learned from my own experience:

Set the goal of solving the problem (Don't, for example, ask yourself
questions like "What if nothing works?").

Have faith in your ability to find a solution.

Know the answer to these two questions. What do I want? How will I
know I've got it?

Be the change you want to see in the world.

If I can feel compassion for my son and be even more determined to
create circumstances that will make it easy for him to be happy when
he's just thrown a house brick at my head ... well, you get the point
of what Ghandi said, I'm sure.

You may have to go upstream to find your solution in this case.

My ten cents worth anyway. :)

Bob

cathy

Bob, your mail is very special. Thank you for being so honest and so
transparent. On our parenting journey, we look back and see where we went
wrong and where we would have made different choices had we known what we
know now. We look forward, to see how to use what we know now for the
future. And we live now in the joy of what we have learned. Finally, we
share what we have learned in an effort to help other parents do things
better. Your mail achieves all of these purposes. You have a very fortunate
son...



I particularly appreciated this paragraph: >>> As far as I could tell, I was
the epitome of sweetness and light, but, as the saying goes, the meaning of
the message is how the recipient responds to it - while I was sure I was
being positive, friendly, supportive, and the rest, my son apparently
perceived me as The Dad From Hell. Presumably because instead of actually
helping him get what he wanted I was doing what I thought would help but
didn't.<<<, and also your comment >>> When truly helpful circumstances
eventuated (not circumstances we only thought were helpful), my son became
positive and friendly very quickly.<<<



My daughter works with horses, and I have a Highland pony that I enjoy, and
it is so interesting to observe how one's own behaviours, responses and
attitudes affect the horse. Increasingly we are learning, when things go
wrong, not to say 'what a naughty horse', but rather to ask - 'what did I do
to set our partnership up for this failure?' Not to say that horses are
automatisms, with no intelligence of their own; however, because they are
such body language communicators, they pick up things that we are not aware
of. We humans can be terribly incongruent - what we think we are is often
not what we really are. The horses show this up like a mirror, and the
reflection is not always nice to look at!!! Anyway, I have had some
interpersonal difficulties with my eldest daughter, and because of what I
have been learning, it has been so much easier not to blame, not so see her
as the cause of our problems, but rather to make an honest appraisal of what
happened and from there to see how to heal our relationship.



Regards

Cathy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~
What I learned from my own experience:

Set the goal of solving the problem (Don't, for example, ask yourself
questions like "What if nothing works?").~~

I find that in moments of frustration I start asking "why" questions
which shut down the problem solving process. When I switch over to the
"how" questions it opens the door to finding solutions.

"How can we solve this?"
"How can everyone get their needs met?"

Those open the door for me to be more creative rather than obsessing
about WHY someone is acting a certain way.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "cathy" <cathy@...> wrote:
Anyway, I have had some
interpersonal difficulties with my eldest daughter, and because of what I
have been learning, it has been so much easier not to blame, not so see her
as the cause of our problems, but rather to make an honest appraisal of what
happened and from there to see how to heal our relationship.

I think it's so important in the parent/child relationship to keep the communication lines
as free from parental baggage as possible. I'm a horse-person too, and so I really connect
with your analogy about that what happens is a reflection of the relationship, not the
"fault" of the other. If we all kept this in mind, we might be able to better serve all of our
relationships.

When my father left, (I was 16) things hadn't been good for a long time, and he had
disconnected himself entirely from the family. He then blamed all of us for the lack of
connection. The day I turned 18 he was able to make me fully responsible for everything
regarding our relationship. I know that this is an extreme example, but many people act
this way--not taking personal responsibility for the state of their relationship with their
children. People want to blame genetics, videogames, drugs, peers, etc., for the unwell
state of their relationships, but I think most of us know that when we really help our
children to get/do/be what they want, they respond with gratitude and love, and
connection, just like I do when someone helps me.

Joanna

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier"
<bobcollier@...> wrote:
>
> I don't give parenting advice, but I have had a major problem in
the
> past with my son when he was at school (ages 5 to 7) and becoming
> increasingly unhappy with that. Sometimes everything I did seemed
to
> antagonise him. It was most disconcerting when my son would
suddenly
> become aggressive and sometimes violent toward me 'for no apparent
> reason'. In other words, I had no idea what I'd done to trigger
it. As
> far as I could tell, I was the epitome of sweetness and light,
but, as
> the saying goes, the meaning of the message is how the recipient
> responds to it - while I was sure I was being positive, friendly,
> supportive, and the rest, my son apparently perceived me as The Dad
> From Hell. Presumably because instead of actually helping him get
what
> he wanted I was doing what I thought would help but didn't. Who
knows?
> I'm not a mind reader.
>
> In truth, there were other factors involved besides the school
> experience. My son had been in childcare for bits and pieces of his
> toddlerhood (until I quit my job to be at home with him full time
when
> he was two and a half), with the result that his life in those
early
> years had been quite fragmented at times - he usually didn't know
when
> he would be at home, when he would be elsewhere, and who he would
be
> with. We moved house five times from his birth until we bought the
> house we're living in now when he was five years old, including
> emigrating from England to Australia.
>
> While all that was going on, there were occasional tantrums and
acts
> of aggression to accommodate somehow whenever he became frustrated
> with his less than ideal circumstances. One day, when my son was
two,
> I had come home from work and I was playing with him, helping him
> build with his Brio, and he deliberately smacked me in the mouth
with
> one of the wooden blocks and broke two teeth. And while I'm
rolling on
> the floor in pain with little bits of my shattered teeth around
me, my
> wife's saying "What did you do to upset him?" LOL. I still laugh
about
> that when I think of it. For somebody who thinks of himself as a
> 'successful parent' (which I am), these events are a challenge.
>
> That was an exceptional event though. Mostly the tantrums and acts
of
> aggression were of the usual kind for a toddler (if that makes
sense).
> When my son started school, however, what had been occasional
tantrums
> and outbursts escalated over time into almost chronic rage. After
my
> wife and I had decided he would be homeschooled, we made the HUGE
> mistake of agreeing with the school that he would complete the year
> (there were only seven weeks remaining when we made the decision -
I
> would have taken him out immediately in retrospect). During those
> 'dark and desperate' weeks, I used to pick my son up from the
> classroom and, on the ten minute walk home, he would almost always
> pick a fight with me out of nothing and would either sit down on
the
> ground and refuse to budge or I would get punched and kicked and
> occasionally whacked with a conveniently available tree branch. One
> time, he threw a house brick at my head. It's okay, I ducked. :)
>
> Anyway, we got through it. Within weeks of my son leaving school,
his
> tantrums and apparently random acts of aggression had vanished like
> morning mist in the sunshine. It took another couple of years for
us
> to become as close as I would like to have always been with him -
we
> hadn't exactly got off to a great start with that: we'd spent
hardly
> any meaningful time together in the first two and a half years of
his
> life because I'd had a 'real job' in those days that kept me away
from
> home 60 hours a week.
>
> Once my son was out of school, my wife and I were able to give him
> something he'd never really known before - at least to the extent
that
> he could trust in it - maximum control over his own life. Once,
that
> is, we'd dumped the 'school at home' trial that lasted all of two
weeks.
>
> When truly helpful circumstances eventuated (not circumstances we
only
> thought were helpful), my son became positive and friendly very
> quickly. He was always a genuinely wonderful person. And behaved
> accordingly most of the time. Now there were no hindrances to him
> being wonderful all the time - as he's continued to be.
>
> What I learned from my own experience:
>
> Set the goal of solving the problem (Don't, for example, ask
yourself
> questions like "What if nothing works?").
>
> Have faith in your ability to find a solution.
>
> Know the answer to these two questions. What do I want? How will I
> know I've got it?
>
> Be the change you want to see in the world.
>
> If I can feel compassion for my son and be even more determined to
> create circumstances that will make it easy for him to be happy
when
> he's just thrown a house brick at my head ... well, you get the
point
> of what Ghandi said, I'm sure.
>
> You may have to go upstream to find your solution in this case.
>
> My ten cents worth anyway. :)
>
> Bob
>

At first I didn't have anything to respond to this. But after
reading Bob's response I could see parallels in my life. Our 4yo son
seems to be very aggressive toward my husband a lot of the time. He
has wacked him in the face with a plastic golf club. He sometimes
punches my husband as hard as he can for no apparent reason. It was
very bizarre behavior for our 4yo. OTOH, my husband was gone from
just before he turned 3 until just after he turned 4, an entire year
of his life without a male role model. It was like my husband came
back and the testosterone went wild. Our son would never do those
things with me, although he could have. He still has never done
anything like that with me.

Our son is now calming down a bit. He doesn't beat the crap out of
daddy so much anymore. Daddy has to be very careful not to even
appear to be aggressive or overpowering in any way. I still haven't
figured out what that is all about.

Alysia

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> Our son would never do those
> things with me, although he could have. He still has never done
> anything like that with me.

Same with my son and his mother. It seems to have all been about his
relationship with me.


>
> Our son is now calming down a bit. He doesn't beat the crap out of
> daddy so much anymore.

LOL

When my son was about nine, we got into watching WWE on the TV for a
while and used to have mock wrestling matches on the bed in the main
bedroom. I was Rob van Dam, he was Rey Mysterio. Tons of friendly
aggression from him on those occasions. It was all great fun and
neither of us got hurt over the course of dozens of 'bouts'.

As I write, I can't think of the last time my son showed any
unfriendly aggression towards me. It was that long ago.

Bob